Transcript of Julianna Scott: Autism,Mental Health and Defying Predictions

Lisa, tell them about our new show.

We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube.

Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, The new NFL season is here, and you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. It is in the name, NFL Daily. You'll have fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. That game-winning drive, maybe it's Herbert, maybe it's Geno, maybe it's Mahomes. We'll have the highlights. If Fernando Mendoza or any of those rookies are balling out, we'll break down the tape. Join me, Greg Rosenthal, and an all-star cast of co-hosts as we preview and recap every game. Listen to NFL Daily on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Brett Coleman.

And I'm Trevor Siakamoa.

If you love football and want to understand what's really happening on the field, check out our show, NFL Pro. Every week, we break down the biggest plays, trends, and matchups using exclusive Next Gen Stats insights and NFL content you will not find anywhere else.

Whether you're new to football, a fantasy football fanatic, or a diehard fan, NFL Pro will help you analyze the game like a pro. Listen to NFL Pro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Is there an epidemic against literature? More specifically, Black literature? I'm Jacquees Peace Thomas, and on this season of the Black Lit Podcast, we're outside asking why. They don't want a whole bunch of little Ella Bakers, Malcolm Xs, and Martin Luther Kings running around. And when you look at a lot of different cultures, They're like, you need to know where you came from. And considering this is Black Reading Month, the only real question is, what are you reading next? Listen to Black Lit from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Tony Mantour. Before we start today's show, I want to introduce you to Coast to Coast Heroes, my new podcast debuting November 11th. For our military veterans, the uniform is only part of the story. Behind it is a person and a life shaped by service, sacrifice, and experiences many of us may never fully understand. Through honest, deeply personal conversations, you'll hear veterans share what they've faced, what carried them through, and how they continue making a difference beyond their military service. Their strength deserves more than our gratitude. Their stories deserve our attention. Coast to Coast Heroes: The People Behind the Uniform, the Stories Beyond the Headlines. Coast to Coast Heroes debuts November 11th. Please follow, listen, and share. And most of all, get to know the veterans because behind every veteran is a story and listening is where understanding begins. What if everything you thought you knew about autism and mental health wasn't the full story? Today's conversation might change the way you see it. Welcome to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide, where real conversations and lived experiences Inspire understanding and hope. I'm Tony Mantour. This is where understanding begins. If this kind of conversation matters to you, then follow the show so you don't miss what comes next.

When a child is diagnosed with autism, parents are often handed more than a diagnosis. They may be also offered predictions on what their child may not be able to do. My guest today, Julianna Scott, knows exactly how that feels. When her son was diagnosed autistic at 2 years old, she was told he would never be mainstreamed in school, never drive a car, and never live independently. Today, at 25, he has done all 3. The journey between those 2 points was anything but easy. She and her family faced years of behavioral challenges, changing schools, anxiety, depression, OCD, loneliness, and the uncertainty that comes along with raising a child when no one can truly tell you what the future will hold. Those experiences eventually helped her and her co-host Kelly Jensen to create the Refrigerator Moms podcast, where they share what they've learned while encouraging families to research, advocate, and find what works for their child. Today we talk about autism, mental health, marriage and family, letting go of predictions, and sometimes the most important thing a parent can do is to focus not on where a child is supposed to be 25 years from now, but on helping them take that next step forward.

Thanks for joining me today.

Thank you.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Take me back to the beginning. Before autism became a major part of your life, what did you imagine motherhood would look like? And when did you first realize that your path forward might be a little different?

Well, my, my vision for motherhood was, well, I never thought I was going to be a stay-at-home mom. That was never the plan.

Okay.

So my first child is the one who was diagnosed with autism. So my plan was, I had a plan. When he was born, I took time off of work and then my husband and I wanted 2 children. So we decided to have, you know, 2 children. They're 21 months apart.

Okay.

While I was pregnant with my youngest, my plan was to go to law school. So while I was pregnant with my youngest, I took the LSATs. The biggest challenge was getting through the LSAT, you know, 6 months pregnant and not needing a break.

Sure.

That was the biggest task. So my plan was then I would go to night school. And by the time my youngest was ready to go to school, I would go and have a career as a lawyer.

Okay.

My husband is a prosecutor, and I was going to join him in the prosecutor's office. So that was the plan. So that my vision of motherhood was I would be a working mom.

Okay.

So when my youngest was about 3 months old, and my oldest just turned 2, We noticed he was having a lot of tantrums and what I would now call autistic meltdowns.

Now, that's your oldest child?

Yes, my oldest child.

Okay.

So he was having lots of meltdowns, especially like every day, about an hour before my husband came home from work. He was very attached to my husband, not particularly me as much. My husband was the favorite, and he would just stand at the door and have these massive meltdowns. I just did not know what to do with him. And so at his 2-year checkup, I asked the pediatrician, I said, he's having these huge meltdowns. You know, we were talking about other things and she was the one who suggested we go see a psychologist.

Okay.

She didn't say autism, but when we went to the psychologist, she was the first person to observe him and plant that seed. Like it could be autism.

Okay.

And then she started pointing out a lot of his behaviors, especially around play. This was our first child. Also, he was premature.

Okay.

So we expected developmental delays already.

Sure.

He wasn't hitting developmental milestones, but that was not unusual for a preemie.

Okay.

But he wasn't— so at 2, he wasn't talking, needed OT because he couldn't hold a bottle. He couldn't do— there were definitely things he was not hitting milestones. Even before we got the official diagnosis, which was really rapid when I look back, but we, we got up to UCSF, a very well-known doctor there diagnosed him. And pretty quickly, like, we started implementing things. But even before those things, the diagnosis was in place, we're like, well, he's not speaking, so we need speech therapy.

Right.

Lisa, we should tell them about our new show.

Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

I'm not gonna get anywhere fighting.

That is wild. I learned that about you today.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is My business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world.

We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are.

Obviously I would do what I think I could do to, to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Liar.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess!

I'm Britt Coleman.

And I'm Trevor Sikema.

Have you ever watched a game and wondered what really made the difference beyond the final score? That's exactly why we created NFL Pro.

Strode's got a man wide open! Touchdown, Seahawks!

Every week we use exclusive Next Gen Stats insights and NFL content to break down the biggest stories, matchups, and moments from around the league. We go beyond the box score to uncover the numbers, the tendencies, and details that help explain what actually happened on the field.

Fires it out in the flat to Barkley, who beats one man, spins past another, leaps over a third.

And don't worry, this isn't just a show for stats experts. We use advanced analytics to help tell the story behind the game, turning the numbers into insights that every fan can understand and enjoy.

So whether you're a casual fan learning more about football or a hardcore fan who can't get enough analysis, our goal is to help you see the game in a whole new way.

If you've ever wanted to know why a play worked, how a matchup was won, or what most fans missed on Sunday, Listen to NFL Pro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The new NFL season is here, and you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. Last year we had Mike McDonald, Sam Darnold on the field after the game, but that was last year. If you're a football sicko like me, NFL Daily is your kind of show. It is in the name, NFL Daily, fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. Matthew Stafford coming off his MVP season.

On a dazzling dart from Matthew Stafford.

Big-time trades that shake up the NFL.

AJ Brown is loose.

And of course, those Seahawks trying to run it back. and win another Lombardi Trophy.

The Seahawks win Super Bowl 60! They are bringing the Lombardis back to the Northwest!

If it's happening on a football field, NFL Daily will cover it. Listen to NFL Daily on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm former U.S. Women's National Soccer Team player Carli Lloyd. I'm Fox Sports reporter Jenny Taft. And on our new podcast, Whatever It Takes, we're talking motherhood, marriages, careers, and figuring out how to balance it all. Do you remember your initial reaction when Fox called you to be a part of the World Cup? I was like, no, I don't want to do it. You said no? I played with players that didn't— I don't think that they really truly loved the game. I found the love with the ball at my foot. But in my head, it was the long game. It was like, I don't care right now.

I don't care what happens right now.

What I'm being asked to do at Fox, I'm gonna go get some reps, and I'm gonna learn it and love it and embrace it. He said, this group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life.

And it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment, you're proud of what you accomplish together.

Listen to Whatever It Takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Taft on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We put him in speech therapy and we started doing those things. Yeah, it really changed when we brought him to San Francisco and he was diagnosed. The doctor told us the diagnosis, which at that time was PDD-NOS, which no longer exists anymore under the DSM-5.

So tell me, when you got the diagnosis, they brought up autism even though they didn't mention autism. What went through your mind? Not just about the day that you got the diagnosis, but what about your life and how it was going to change. And of course, the future for your son.

Yeah, it, it was, it was a lot to process.

Sure.

I remember at the time she said it, my response was, and she said, you know, a little bit about, you know, how much would be involved in helping him. Like, he's, you know, he has autism, all this stuff. And then I said, well, I'm, I'm going to start law school in the fall. And she's like, well, I don't know about that. You know, I think some people might be taken aback by her sort of directing me like that. But I, looking back, I was very grateful that somebody was kind of guiding me. It's like, no, this is gonna be a full-time job. So I deferred. I was like, I wasn't in complete acceptance mode yet. And then once she said that, we were like, okay, what does he need? And then she told us, she's like, well, ABA therapy. She didn't even say what ABA stood for. And I'm just, you know, I remember just writing things down. I'm like, okay, where do I get that? She knew of one place and we immediately called that one. But then what was interesting is she didn't give us much, which is again the adios and, you know, diagnose and adios thing.

You know, she didn't give us a lot of much of a roadmap except for it's going to be a lot of work, a full-time job and ABA, speech therapy. And then she mentioned a program and now this is really good. This is back in 2003.

Okay.

She gave us The name of a program, and this was before touchscreens. So there was this thing you could put on a laptop that made your laptop a touchscreen. It was very fancy. And so we got this computer program and all it was was like he would press a button, it would do something. It was like a cause and effect thing. And I remember when we got it for him, I turned to my husband and I'm like, wow, if this is what she thinks, like the maximum of he— that he's capable of. Like, that's discouraging.

Yeah.

You know, because this is really basic. And that's— that was one of the first times where we got no prognosis. We— well, we did. We, we were told he would never mainstream. We were told he would never live independently. He would never drive a car. Those were the big ones.

But he's doing all of that now, right?

Yeah.

Spoiler alert. He's doing all of those things now.

So I guess sometimes that proves that doctors sometimes don't always get it right. Now, here's another question for you that kind of gets in the clinical side of things. Doctors sometimes look at the charts, then they see what they see.

Yeah.

Sometimes they just don't see the person.

Right.

So what every family member needs to do is see that person Every single time they see a doctor at his office.

Right.

Now that you've lived through it and gained all this knowledge, what do you do now to try to get more people to understand how each autistic child that is diagnosed is different? What they need to do is look at what each autistic child has in common so they can see that common thread that hopefully can help many people.

Okay, that's a— it's a good question, and I would say You should never ask for a prognosis because it would be impossible.

Yeah.

No one really knows what their max potential is, especially at the age of 2. You just— no one could know. And so number one, don't get hung up on 20 years from now or thinking they're never going to get married, they're never going to do X, Y, and Z. Don't think about what they might not do. But on the other hand, you can't get stuck in the mud. You have to get moving. And that means just progress. It doesn't mean at 2 you're thinking, I want this kid to live independently. You just think, okay, at 2 I want him to be able to, you know, say a 2-word sentence.

Right.

You know, look at short-term gains and, you know, and look at what you are dealing with in front of you, address those things, and just keep making progress. And that's all. Like, you don't have to have some, you know, 20-year plan.

Right.

I think that a lot of families, you know, they're mourning the loss of what could have been. And I totally get that. We talk about acceptance a lot, and it's really important to get there quickly. And I think that that really served me and my husband really well, is we didn't— we were not in denial. We were like, okay, like, we're in, like, what are we gonna do?

Yeah.

So I think that that's what I would tell people in that position now, for sure.

Okay. Now, as your child grew older, how did your concerns change? Did the concerns that you had when he was 2 turn out different than the challenges you eventually faced?

Well, I think yes and no.

Okay.

So on the one hand, so now he's 25. Sometimes my husband and I say he's exactly the same person as he was, you know, as a kid. And in a lot of ways he is, like a lot of the way he thinks. Of course, like our concerns were really changed over the course of his life so far.

Sure.

So when he was between 8 and 10, he went to multiple schools. He was kicked out, he was kicked out of special ed. for behaviors. He was very aggressive at home. We did a lot of restraint. He was very aggressive in kind of verbally and physically abusive. And that— those, of course, were probably the hardest years.

Sure.

You know, he had a younger sibling in the house. And there was a lot of trying to manage that situation. And a lot of what we were going through was, How are we going to make it through the next hour?

Right?

We were not thinking about, I wonder if he's going to live independently. I mean, a lot of it is you're just like, I was concerned, like, what happens if he gets bigger than me and I can't restrain him? Or what happens if we get to the point where we have to get police involved or something? I mean, those were our concerns.

Yes.

And then of course, by high school, we're thinking like, What kind of college atmosphere does he need? What kind of supports does he need? It's so, it's so ebbs and flows. And even in high school, when he was doing well, that's when his OCD really emerged. So you just, you just got to stay on your toes. You're never quite sure.

You mentioned OCD. A lot of people do not realize that when a child is diagnosed autistic, there can be several overlapping challenges.

Yes.

OCD, anxiety, depression, so many things. So what did that add to the layers of different things you had to deal with?

Yeah, so he has, he has, along with his autism, the comorbidities, he's got anxiety, depression, and OCD.

Okay.

So the OCD, you know, anxiety and depression fuel OCD. So you've got to really manage those, right, in addition to the OCD, because that terrible cycle. OCD is really insidious, I've got to say. What was really helpful was his psychiatrist told me, because I said, you know, how do you tell the difference between an OCD obsession and an autistic perseveration? Because, you know, we're dealing with both.

Sure.

You know, rigid autistic thinking, and then there's obsessive compulsive disorder, right? It was really helpful because you do need to tease those out, because she said, Autistic perseveration, or you could put stimming in there too, those are soothing mechanisms.

Right.

And, you know, OCD obsessions and compulsions, those are very stress-inducing.

Sure.

They are not soothing.

Right.

And so one is extremely distressing and the other one is very soothing. So that was really helpful. Now, you know, the overlap of course is the rigidity and those things.

Right.

It was really important to us to find professionals that were very familiar with both conditions, right? Because of the, the overlap.

Lisa, we should tell them about our new show.

Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old We're Generation X and Gen Y, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

I'm not gonna get anywhere fighting.

That is wild. I learned that about you today.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world.

We talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are.

Obviously I would do what I think I could do to, to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Liar.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or Or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess.

I'm Britt Coleman.

And I'm Trevor Sikema.

Have you ever watched a game and wondered what really made the difference beyond the final score? That's exactly why we created NFL Pro.

Stroth got a man wide open. Touchdown Seahawks!

Every week we use exclusive next-gen stats insights and NFL content to break down the Biggest stories, matchups, and moments from around the league. We go beyond the box score to uncover the numbers, the tendencies, and details that help explain what actually happened on the field.

Fires it out in the flat to Barkley, who beats one man, spins past another, leaps over a third.

And don't worry, this isn't just a show for stats experts. We use advanced analytics to help tell the story behind the game Turning the numbers into insights that every fan can understand and enjoy.

So whether you're a casual fan learning more about football or a hardcore fan who can't get enough analysis, our goal is to help you see the game in a whole new way.

If you've ever wanted to know why a play worked, how a matchup was won, or what most fans missed on Sunday, NFL Pro delivers insights you simply can't get anywhere else.

The new NFL season is here, and you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. Last year, we had Mike McDonald, Sam Darnold on the field after the game, but that was last year. If you're a football sicko like me, NFL Daily is your kind of show.

And if you're a football sicko like me, NFL Daily is It your kind of show.

is in the name, NFL Daily. Fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. Matthew Stafford coming off his MVP season.

On a dazzling dart from Matthew Stafford.

Big-time trades that shake up the NFL.

AJ Brown is loose.

And of course, those Seahawks trying to run it back and win another Lombardi Trophy.

The Seahawks win Super Bowl 60. They are bringing the Lombardi back to the Northwest.

If it's happening on a football field, NFL Daily will cover it. Listen to NFL Daily on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The World Cup is over, but if you caught the soccer bug and aren't sure what to do now, check out our podcast Big Kick Energy. I'm Cameron Dicker, the kicker from the Los Angeles Chargers, most accurate kicker in NFL history, but I was raised on the soccer pitches of Shanghai. And I'm here with Timmy Tillmann, LAFC star, grew up in the academies of Germany, and now under the bright lights of Major League Soccer.

So we know a little something about kicking balls. Maybe you're new to the game, or you're ready to take your passion to the next level.

Each week we'll tackle things like who's winning the Premier League this year, playing like a number 10.

Do you know what that means?

Then we go over to France. Ligue 1? Oh damn, he knows more. He's better than me.

What do you think is harder, scoring a penalty kick or scoring a field goal?

He's in the NFL and I'm like just a big fat guy doing nothing.

That's crazy.

Join us each week for a quick chat with your soccer-loving bros about the best sport in the world.

Soccer. Just don't tell my coaches I said that. Listen to Big Kick Energy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Now you say he's 25, reached a lot of his milestones now. Even though everything is still good, are there things that keep you up at night still?

Yes. Yes. I would say loneliness is a big one. It's still a challenge for him to make friends. Sure. And, and now that he is in a city across the country from us.

Right.

Also, you know, at 25, no matter autism or not, you don't want your parents making your friends for you. So like, even if we were next Right. It's not gonna happen.

Right.

He has to do that. Loneliness is a big one. I know he would like a larger circle. I know he would like a family. And so those things concern me. Anxiety, depression. Now recently, I know you spoke with my Refrigerator Moms co-host Kelly Jensen.

Right.

My son came home for Christmas break and he did an accelerated version of MERT, of TMS. for depression for the first— and he was, you know, totally on board. Of course, he's 25. He has to buy into anything, you know, any kind of therapy. And he did that for a week. And that really— he's very— so he very autistically will quantify everything. He thinks of, you know, percentages and bar graphs and everything.

Sure.

And so when I asked him how he was doing with his depression after, after the treatment, he's like, well, doctor said I wouldn't feel max benefit for at least a month. So I'll tell you in a month. And I'm like, I want to know now. But then finally, he said, he's like, there's a 70— I think it was like a 73 or 78% reduction in his depression.

Okay.

Sometimes he says he feels no depression at all.

Yeah.

That's been a game changer. Because ever since he could verbalize, I'm depressed, or we could observe it, he's, you know, he's over— he's had those feelings. Anxiety, he still needs to manage that.

Right.

And so that I worry about a lot. So on the table for worrying, keeping me up at night, it's the anxiety and the OCD and the rigid thinking. And that's gonna be chronic.

Sure. Now you brought up Kelly. You've known her for about 20 years, I think you said. You both have gone through a lot of things together. What was that turning point that both of you were talking about? What was the turning point that happened where you said, we have to do something? Then you started the podcast Refrigerator Moms.

Yes.

Yes. So the turning point was my day job. So Kelly's day job is she's the marketing director for Brain Performance Technologies.

Right.

It's a mental health clinic, health for brain care. And my day job is I have been in the college textbook publishing industry. Well, before I was told no more law career for me, I was in publishing. And then as my kids got a little older, I freelanced in publishing because this— the world is small. So I kept a toe in the publishing world and freelanced for years.

Okay.

So Kelly knew this, so she asked me to edit the website for Brainformance Technologies. So I was in the office and a mom came in and she was talking to us and it was a long time. And so when the mom left, you know, we were trying to give her the pep talk as, you know, moms who've been through it before do.

Sure.

And when she left, I'm like, Kelly, like, how much of your day is taken up, like, doing this? And she's like, a lot. And I said, well, you got to do something about that, because I don't know how you get anything done. So we were talking about ideas. And we first thought maybe a support group, like, on site. And then it kind of— we started brainstorming. And she's like, well, would you do it with me? I'm like, yeah. And I think we always thought that we would do something together.

Right.

But we never knew what. And so we, we brainstormed ideas. And then podcasting, you know, we're like, okay, we can do that, right? Like we could do a podcast and that could be, that could be fun. And then it just, you know, Kelly has such a can-do, you know, attitude.

Right.

I'm the one who's kind of like, well, you know, I'm the one who's kind of a methodical thinker and she's like, let's do it. And so we really thought about what would we want to do instead of just a support group. It's like, we do have this kind of institutional knowledge of raising adult children with autism.

Mm-hmm.

On different parts of the spectrum. You know, her son is what we'd call a level 3, and mine is like a level 1. So we have very different experiences. We are, you know, we're big into researching, finding out best practices, all of these things. And it's like, what can we do with this information that we have? And how can we share it? And also, what's changed? Like, the moms that we're talking to are in the thick of it, you know, what are they going through? And how do we address some of that with some of the knowledge we have.

Sure.

It turned out to be great. We can kind of, we can do that. A lot of what the difference between now and then is, is the internet and social media, which we didn't have in the early days.

Right.

And so people are getting opinions online that aren't really vetted. So we're not saying take our advice. We're like, do your own research for your own family. That's really what our big message is. It's like, We've done a lot of research, but you need to look at it as a starting point to do your own.

How did you come up with the name?

So we got to give my husband credit for it, because when we were brainstorming names, he suggested Refrigerator Moms because there is the Refrigerator Mother theory that dates back to Bettelheim, Leo Kanner. These are old-school psychiatrists from the '40s and '50s that put forth and then reinforce this idea of the refrigerator mother, of the mothers being the cause of their children's autism because of their aloof demeanor.

Right.

And so when my— when, when the kids were little in the house, we would joke about it. And like, if I was, you know, kind of take— like being, you know, a disciplinarian— not a disciplinarian, but if I was, you know, wouldn't let them do something or do something like that, They were always like, oh, you know, Refrigerator Mom. And so we would joke about it. And, uh, and so Steve, my husband, suggested it and I brought it to Kelly and she's like, yeah, let's do it. So, and, but as we, as we've gotten out there and talked to people about the podcast and about our name, we realized, you know, the culture of shaming people and the guilt moms feel hasn't gone away.

Yeah, that's right.

And, and so it's kind of just as relevant now to call it out and say, you know, we're not to blame, and you need to go out there and, you know, we're all trying our best.

Yeah, sure. Now, if a parent comes to you, it's my understanding that you are not afraid to tackle subjects that might be difficult.

No.

You've got into the mom guilt, you've touched upon therapies, All kinds of different things. Have you ever covered something that you knew where there could be some backlash, but you addressed it anyways because it was a subject that needed to be touched upon?

Yeah, I would say the most controversial subjects like online pathological demand avoidance is a big one. I don't know if you've, you've gone too much into that world.

Not a lot.

Yeah, I mean, they are very much against ABA therapy and behavioral therapy in general and things like that. And they are very vocal online. So, um—

Lisa, we should tell them about our new show.

Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different reference occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

I'm not gonna get anywhere fighting.

That is wild. I learned that about you today.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world.

We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, Getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are.

Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to, to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Liar.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer.

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I'm Britt Coleman.

And I'm Trevor Sikema.

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That was one Interestingly, one that we've gotten a lot of conversation around was about a separate diagnosis for profound autism, which kind of took us by surprise that that would be something that people would push back on so much.

Yeah.

We do believe that it would be beneficial to have a separate diagnosis for those with severe autism to— in order to send more research dollars that way to separate it out, to really focus on the needs of that population that is kind of the most underserved of those on the spectrum. And that got a lot of pushback. We try not to get political because autism isn't political. It touches everybody.

Right.

And again, we— it doesn't really matter to me what causes autism. I was in the thick of it. I I was glad people were out there researching it, but I just had to deal with my— I just needed to focus on my family. So we do feel like sometimes we need to address some egregious things that are being said, right? But also want to not alienate people.

Sure.

Because at the end of the day, we're all raising our kids. We all care about better outcomes for our kids.

What have you learned about being an effective advocate without losing yourself in that process?

Yeah. What's interesting, because I was talking to Kelly about this a little bit too, is I think that you can really have a healthy attitude toward where autism fits in your life.

Right.

Even though my son doesn't live in our house anymore, he is living independently.

Sure.

You know, autism is still very much a part of my identity and my life and It doesn't have to be all-consuming, and I don't think it ever was, even when, you know, he was having those aggressive meltdowns. I think that autism will always be a part of your life if you have a child with autism.

Sure.

It doesn't have to define you.

Right.

Like, I think I identify— I feel more comfortable in the autism world than I do in the purely neurotypical world.

Yeah.

And I really straddled both because I had both children, and they never were in the same school. And so I could kind of live the neurotypical mom life and I could live the autism mom life.

Right.

There is something about being in the autism world that's always gonna be baked in.

Right.

But that said, you have to have a balance. You have to have other interests. You have to take care of yourself and your relationships in your life. You can't ignore the other people in your life or your own interests.

Yeah. Now, one common thread that I've always found is the mother tends to take full responsibility.

Yep.

They feel, maybe I did this, maybe I did that, maybe I shouldn't have done that.

Yeah.

Of course, that thought process has been totally proven wrong. With that said, there's still a certain amount of guilt that the mother still takes on. Sometimes that will overlap not only with the child, but also with the husband. Because of that, the family structure falls apart, creating a tremendous amount of divorces.

Absolutely.

What do you think is a good point to put across not only to mothers but to fathers that the child needs help? So how do we get them to focus on their child, stop pointing fingers, stop blaming each other, move together as a family?

That is a huge question. I am very fortunate that I have a partner, my husband. We've been together more than 30 years married. Yeah, we had actually— Kelly and I had both of our husbands on the podcast to talk about that very issue. Okay. And a lot of it was communication and trust. It was definitely an adjustment. But I think that there's also, for us, there really was a team mentality, right? Sometimes that just doesn't happen. And I think that sometimes that's, you know, with one partner, there's a certain level of denial or a lack of acceptance.

Right.

I think that if your partner is the one with the denial and the lack of acceptance, I think helping them and not being confrontational about it, but being empathetic about it, right, and not being adversarial about that. Because you want them to be on the team, right? You know, it doesn't serve to battle. And I think that people that are still married in this situation, I think most people I've talked to, there is a moment of recognition of like, we don't want to do this alone. You know, it's a priority to be a team. And so I think that if you have that, and you, you know, love your spouse, you're going to try to help them get to that point of acceptance. So you can be that team. I mean, way easier said than done, right? You know, there is no magic to it. I think therapy You know, getting on the same page, like encouraging your spouse to get on the same page. You see it, trust me, like in waiting rooms, I saw it all the time. Or, you know, we talked to other moms and you're like, well, I want to do this, but he doesn't want to do this, or he doesn't see the need to do this, or vice versa.

It's a big issue.

Sure.

I think you've got to, you know, you might not be going at the same speed, right? And so if you're there, be patient with your spouse. If you're disagreeing on a treatment, ask why. Ask, you know, like, well, do you have, you know, an alternate plan? And don't get hung up on who's right and who's wrong.

Right.

Let's figure out how we can best help, you know, our child.

Yeah, great words of advice. Now, in closing, what do you think is important that people hear from you today?

I think it's important Let's circle back to the very beginning of our conversation. I think it's really important to not get hung up on a long-term vision.

Mm-hmm.

You can plan long-term, I think, especially financially and all of those things. You don't want to ignore the future, but don't get hung up on what is he doing today He's not where I want him to be. It's like, take it in small increments of progress.

Right.

And keep it open-ended. Like, don't get so hung up on any outcome, whether it's negative or positive. Like, don't buy into he's never gonna mainstream, you know, or don't get hung up on that because you really don't know. I would never have known what my son could do back then. It was impossible. I wouldn't know what my neurotypical one would do.

Right.

So it's impossible. So I think that people get really stuck. And the same thing with acceptance and denial, like, just keep accepting what the present is. And I think that that will help you make progress.

Yeah, that sounds great. I really appreciate you taking time to join me today.

I really appreciate the conversation.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks again. A sincere thank you to our guests for sharing their journey with us today. We appreciate their honesty, courage, and willingness to open their heart in hopes of helping others. If today's conversation helped you see the world a little differently, then we've accomplished exactly what we set out to do. Until next time, keep believing, keep learning, and most importantly, keep asking yourself, why not me?

Lisa, tell them about our new show.

We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business.

Listen on I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest.

Oh, I scammed him.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you You can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The new NFL season is here, and you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. It is in the name, NFL Daily. You'll have fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. That game-winning drive, maybe it's Herbert, maybe Maybe it's Geno. Maybe it's Mahomes. We'll have the highlights. If Fernando Mendoza or any of those rookies are balling out, we'll break down the tape. Join me, Greg Rosenthal, and an all-star cast of co-hosts as we preview and recap every game. Listen to NFL Daily on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Black Lit. October is Black Fiction Month, and the Black Lit podcast explores the minds How speculative fiction works is you enter into a story with a question. Nisi Shawl.

What kind of world would it be if these people had not perished?

And Octavia Butler.

In science fiction and fantasy, I can do absolutely anything.

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