Transcript of E538 Dr. Gabor Maté

We have some upcoming tour dates there in Colorado Springs, in Colorado, Casper, Wyoming, Billings, Montana, and Missoula, Montana, Bloomington, Indiana, Columbus, Ohio, Champagne, Illinois, over there in the Fighting Aligny area, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Lafayette, Louisiana, and Beaumont, Texas. You can get all your tickets at theovan. Com/taur. Thank you so much for the support. Today's guest is a physician and an author. His works explore such topics like stress, trauma, addiction, developmental psychology, and more. He has a new book called The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture. I'm grateful today to spend time with Dr. Gabor Mathe. Shine that light on me.

I'll sit and tell you my stories. Shine on me, and I will find a song I've been singing just for.

I saw you into you with Donald Trump.

Oh, you did? I was actually quite struck. I saw the segment on his brother's alcoholism. I found him unusually without bombast and almost tender and very vulnerable and just humble, which is not how usually he comes across.

I was trying to just talk to him about something that It felt pretty normal.

But he's also expressed interest in you and your brother.

Yeah, I thought it was sweet of him. As sweet as he could be.

I think I-Well, look, when you read further in the book, I actually talk about him. Really? His childhood trauma. Oh, you do? Him and Hillary Clinton's both.

Oh, wow. I didn't know that. It's cool. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, it's especially just as a regular person in the world, you want to try to get a for somebody.

I use a poster boy for trauma, in my view.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of it there. I mean, his brother had addiction, and even him, I think, trying to learn about addiction. I wish I could. I wish I would have stayed in that conversation a little bit more with Donald and tried to share some thoughts and things that I had, not thoughts, but a little bit more explanation about addiction from my own perspective.

Yeah, that would have been an interesting conversation.

Yeah, just to let him know that it wasn't something his brother... It wasn't like his brother just couldn't stop drinking. No. That he had other things inside of him that prevented him from doing that. Exactly. Yeah. I really wish that if I could go back. But one of the things that's been tough for me is just you get into certain conversations, and I'm still learning how to be in conversations sometimes. Sometimes you're learning on the stove.

We're always learning.

Yeah, we're always learning. Gabor, that's how you say it? Gabor. Gabor. Yeah. Theo. Nice to meet you today, Mr. Mathe, and thanks for coming. Thank you. My pleasure. Yeah. And thanks for sharing this book, man. This is your book, The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture. Yeah. You believe that we are a sick culture. What makes you believe that? Or what proof do you have of that?

Well, 70% of American adults run at least on one medication, 70%, 40% are on two medications or more. The number of children being diagnosed with all manner of dysfunctions, disorders, mental health challenges like ADHD, self-cutting, addictions, anxiety, depression, childhood suicide, it keeps going up. In the United States, annually, twice as many people die of overdoses as died in the Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghan wars put together. This is every year. The life expectancy, particularly of white men, has gone down due to suicide and drug overdoses. I could go on on it forever, but just statistically, There's more and more evidence of illness and dysfunction.

Yeah. The overdose in alone is unbelievable. The fact that that's even just become a common thing in our society, it's heartbreaking for so many. It's heartbreaking for so many and so many people's families, just the residual effect of suicide or overdose. It's like we don't even think about... Those numbers don't even take into the ripple effect of people losing a loved one.

Absolutely. The family that are being devastated. I used to work with what is North America's most concentrated area of drug use in Vancouver, British Columbia. I know you were there a month ago.

Yeah, we went down on Catchings. Is that right? The street? Hastings. Hastings, yeah. We went down on Hastings just to take a drive and see.

Well, so that's where I used to work. Wow. For 12 years as a physician. Everybody down there was severely traumatized in childhood, and their addictions were all a response to immense emotional pain that they didn't know how else to handle. Not to mention the racial aspect, like 30% of my clients were Indigenous, whereas they only make up 5% of the Canadian population. So the more you suffer, either socially or individually, the more likely you are to escape in the soothing and the relief that drugs or other addictions offer. So if you look at American in society, you're going to be asking, why are so many people having to escape from reality? Yeah.

And we're going to get in a good stuff. I have a good plan today. I'm prepared. Some stuff, I have some questions that I even wrote down that are on cards just because I want to make sure that we get the best information that we can for our guests today. I think it's really important. One of the things that you talk about in the book that's causing a lot of sickness is trauma, and then more specifically, unprocessed trauma.

Yeah.

Help How do you define those a little bit for our audience?

Sure. So trauma is one of these words that everybody throws around. Yeah, it's a buzzword. Yeah. So let's just define it. So trauma literally comes from the Greek word for wound or wounding. So trauma is a wound, whether it's a physical wound or a psychological wound. In this case, we're talking about emotional wounds that haven't healed. So trauma is an unhealed wound that you sustain in childhood, but then it stays with you. It directly causes inflammation in the body. It affects all your genes function or your chromosomes function. It stresses your organs. It creates all kinds of physiological problems. On the emotional level, it instills a lot of pain in you that you try to escape from. One of the ways you try to escape, for example, is through drug use or to other kinds of addictions or through self-cutting or bulimia or any pornography or whatever. It also makes you suppress, disconnects you from your own emotions because when a child is being traumatized, it's too painful to connect to themselves, so they disconnect. And that disconnect then causes all kinds of problems in terms of illness, mental and physical. So the impacts of trauma are vast and quite under-recognized.

Indeed. And you talk about trauma also as not being seen and known.

Yeah. So Here we have to understand what are the needs of the human child. So everybody understands that the child needs to be physically cared for, cleaned up, fed, and sheltered, and so on. Children, according to evolution, also have emotional needs that they're born with. One of them is being just accepted and valued for exactly who they are and being seen rather than being forced to be something that the parents want them to be. Yeah. A lot of parents in this society, not because they don't love their kids, but because they're so stressed, have just a hard time seeing their kids. I had trouble seeing my kids, and that had an impact on them. Not because I wasn't devoted, because I didn't love them, Just because of my own trauma, I could even see myself.

Man, I can relate so much to that. It's funny because I work as a comedian, and I grew up in a a traumatic home. My mom was very busy. She had four children. I feel like she never looked at me. I feel like she never put her hands on me. I feel like she just... And she didn't know how, I guess. It's okay. I just always felt like I wasn't seen.

And how do you suppose that affected you?

Well, I ended up becoming a comedian. I felt like I had to find some way to be seen. I had to something to get someone to see me because I needed to survive. I needed to feel alive.

It's funny about comedians. May I say something about them? Yeah. I looked at the back of a number of comedians. What you're talking about is a common theme. I looked at Robin Williams, who was this brilliant, brilliant comic. One of the reasons he developed this humor was to make his mother laugh as a way of having his mother pay attention to him. Gilder who died of ovarian cancer, the same thing. So that they had the innate talent, but then they used that talent to be seen and valued where they should have been valued with or without talent.

No matter what. Yeah. It's funny. A few years ago, I thought it's... I'm a late bloomer. I only realized that... I go to recovery meetings, stuff like that. I'm in AA, and I only realized a few years ago It started to hit me like, did I even want to be a comedian? Or did I just, at some early point, develop having to get attention because Because I need... And then, so if that's the case, then who did I really want it? What would I have been if I didn't do that? And not saying that I'm not grateful, and I don't love being a comedian. It's been a blessing But it's like, if I created that, okay, I have to be this thing for you to see me, then who created that? Was there a different me that was supposed to be there? But then I created this new me.

That's the dilemma for so many of us is that as a result of childhood wound, we have to make ourselves into something that the world will accept and value. Look, in my case, I love having been a physician, and that's my calling. But the big part of it wasn't just that I wanted to help humanity or heal people. It's also I needed to be important. Why did I need to be important? Because as an infant, I got the message that I wasn't. And so now then, that creates an addiction because you have to keep proving to yourself how important you are and how valuable you are. But nobody should have to prove how valuable they are. That's just our birthright that we We have the right to be here.

Yeah, that God chose us or that the energies of the world chose us and said, I'm going to put you here with a fine pen. I'm going to put you in the world. And I did it on purpose. And the world was built to take care of you and to nurture you and to make you feel welcome as you are.

And if you actually look at, and this has been studied quite extensively, how Indigenous people or tribal people is close to the land rear their kids, that's exactly how they rear their kids. They give their children a deep sense of acceptance. They hold them, they carry them everywhere.

Oh, yeah. All the paintings you see of a Native Americans, somebody's got a kid on them. They got them in a knapsack. They got them.

And they tend not to hit their kids.

Yeah. You never seen a movie about a Native American beating his children, I don't think. Yeah.

So what you're describing is actually how we evolved. And part of the toxicity, in my view, of our culture is we've gone so far away from our nature when it comes to how we rear children. And again, not because of lack of parental devotion, but because of so much parental stress.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I think that was it. My mom couldn't see us because she had other things she had to see first. Yeah. And not just me, but so many people. It's like, yeah, we've created a society, or our society has created a way of life where Now it's like both parents work in so many cases. Yeah. And that alone just feels like it just shouldn't be that way. It's like-Well, if you look at throughout evolution, through millions of years and hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, children were always with their parents.

That's how nature designed it. Yeah. Now, if that's not possible in today's society, at least they may have to compensate for it. But we've forgotten that children need that. So now when they send them to daycares and schools, it's all about behavior and it's all about fitting in, not about accepting the child and nurturing the child in that sense of who they are. So we all end up disconnected from ourselves. Then we get to a certain stage in life, we're wondering, Whose life am I leading anyway?

Yeah. Wow. It's funny you say fitting in. It's like, yeah, Where you're like, your child is not fitting in because it's two puzzle pieces or the parents or the family. And not to say it shouldn't be able to spend time with other children and that our schools are bad or anything, but It's the fact that they need to fit in there first, and then I think it's probably easier for children to fit in in other places in the world.

But the fitting in happens naturally when you're accepted. Listen, the schools... I'll tell you something. I'm talking science here. One of the essential needs of all mammals is play. In our brain, there's circuitry for play. You can see it. Dolphins play, little elephants play, bear cubs, lion cubs, puppies, kittens, they all play. Why? Play is essential for brain development. It's far more important than academic learning. So then the schools, they have to be a A lot more play, a lot more freedom for the kids to be themselves, a lot more freedom to move around. And then those kids will be naturally curious and interested in learning. But here we try to put the cart before the horse. We try and stuff them full of knowledge, skills, and behavior or control rather than, again, promoting the conditions for healthy brain development. The schools, actually, they intend well, but they really don't get it when it comes to what the children actually need.

Well, I think it's just an... And that's just part of it. It's like our whole society. I wonder sometimes where we... Did we go completely off the rails in a direction or a series of directions that have put us where we are. I want to get this statement right here. Sure. Why is a trauma event different from other stressful events? What makes it a trauma? Some events traumatic for some people, and the same event not traumatic for others. What exactly is it about the mind, body, soul that makes the event traumatic? Or what is the mechanism? Right.

Great question. So every traumatic event is stressful, but not every stressful event is dramatic. You invite me on your show, and for some reason, I don't show up. You had this studio arranged. That might stress you, but it doesn't traumatize you. It doesn't leave you with a permanent wound. It's dramatic if it leaves you with a wound. If that wound leaves you more constricted and more afraid and more suspicious and less comfortable with yourself, more hostile to other people, less comfortable in the world, then it's dramatic. No matter if it's a stressful event, it will have that effect. But if it does, then it's dramatic.

If it makes a wound.

If it makes a wound, that's what makes it dramatic.

Because a wound is sensitive. Even if you think of a wound, and if it's not healed properly, then it's always a problem.

Well, there's two ways a wound can show up. One is just an open wound, and if you touch it, so I have certain emotional wounds. And well into my 70s or even I'm 80 now, say my-Oh, you look great. Well, thanks. It's all the Botox. And the adrenaline. In my 55-year-old marriage with my wife, she might say something or react in some way that touches an old wound, and all of a sudden, I'm not this 80-year-old guy. I'm this one-year-old kid responding because that wound is... I'm not giving an excuse here. I'm just saying that that's the challenge. In In one sense, a trauma is a trauma, it's an open wound that you touch it. That's the one thing. But then the other thing that happens to wounds is they scar over. Now, scar tissue is thick, it's hard, it doesn't grow, it has no nerve in it, so it's insensitive. So we get hardened.

You can either get extremely sensitive or very hardened. Or both.

Or both. Depending on. When you talk about hardened criminals, guess That's what hardened them, is that they were so wounded in childhood. Again, I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling you what the sign shows. The question is then, how do we treat each other in a society where so many of us carry wounds.

Let's talk a little bit about unprocess trauma. You talk about emotional isolation as being something that really negatively nurtures unprocess trauma.

Once you hurt as a child, you tend not to trust other people. You could be in the middle of a crowd and be laughing and interacting but still feel quite alone emotionally. Maybe you've had that feeling.

Oh, yeah.

That emotional isolation itself then has effects on your body and on your mind. The people who are lonely, and the US US surgeon general, Dr. Admiral Vivek Murthy, just issued a paper on loneliness in the United States. And there's an epidemic of loneliness. People are describing us as lonely in much higher numbers as they did 20, 40 years ago. No, loneliness is as much of a risk factor for physiological illness as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Really? Yeah. So loneliness is both a manifestation of trauma and a cause of tremendous stress, which then undermines physiological and mental health.

Okay, say that to me one more time.

So loneliness is both an outcome of trauma.

So it's an outcome of trauma. So something traumatic happened, it wasn't processed You have to be in that process properly, and then now you will feel lonely.

You will feel lonely, you will isolate. Because look, if I am always being a nice guy so that you will like me, But inside, I'm feeling all these emotions that I'm not sharing with you. That's pretty lonely, even though you might like me because I'm showing you this nice side of myself.

That's not really me.

That's not me. There was a study done in Australia, or at least I used to work in palliative care as a doctor looking after dying people. In Australia, there was a palliative care nurse who wrote a book called The Top 5 Regrets of Dying People. These were people that were dying before that time, like I used to look after, of cancer or chronic neurological illness. You know what the top regret of dying people was? That they didn't have the courage to be themselves. And the third top regret was that they didn't have the courage to express their emotions. They pretended to be happy when they were not and so on. So the question for the rest of us is, do we want to wait till some terminal illness wakes us up? Or should we just confront the fact that in so many ways we're afraid to be authentic because we're so afraid of being rejected? As children, we didn't have much choice. As adults, can we develop that freedom to be ourselves?

Wow. Yeah, it's like Yeah, it's amazing what your feelings or your heart or your mind will want you to do sometimes. But then this other smoke comes in that feels stronger sometimes in it. It clouds. It almost clouds that feeling away. Yeah, well, it does.

Yeah. Am I interrupting? Sorry.

No, I just wanted to... You said in the book that if you have a trauma that you can't process, you essentially have the trauma of unprocessed trauma. Yeah. So now you've had a trauma that's happened, and then if you can't process it, now you have almost a new trauma of unprocessed trauma.

Well, they the ongoing wound, which is what trauma means. Now look, let's take an extreme example. Okay. Let's say a child is being sexually abused. So what were their instincts tell them to do? Well, their instincts would say, fight back or run away or ask for help, for God's sakes. But by definition, none of those options are available to the child. So the only way they can survive is to disconnect from themselves. And that disconnection, it gets wired into the nervous system, into their brain. And every time they even think of being themselves, as you just described, they get scared because being themselves was... Because had they fought back, had they tried to escape, it would have been even worse for them. So that this connection from the self was the only way they survived. No, every time as an adult, even think of being authentic, that fear comes up.

It may not even come up for them in their awake mind. It's almost like it comes up at a level where you don't even realize that something's pulling the strings in the distance. That's what's pretty remarkable.

But pulling the strings is exactly the right analogy. There's a neurobiologist, neuroscientist, quite well known at Stanford University University, Robert Sapolsky, wrote a book recently called Determined, by which he means predetermined. He basically says, There's no such thing as free will because we're so conditioned by our biology, our culture, and our early experiences. And he's almost right because what he's talking about is, as you say, we're pulled by these invisible strings of our unconscious that were programmed into us even before we were born, even in our mother's womb. And so It's just a life, I find it personally, a lifetime's challenge to cut the strings and to actually be in the present moment as an adult person connected to myself. Let me tell you, it's a lifelong work. Yeah.

No, I feel you. It's funny. I didn't even know that I... I didn't know that... It might sound crazy. I didn't even... I existed, and everything was fine in my life, but I was having trouble building relationships. There were just things that I didn't have any real tools to make my life evolve. And so I started to think, well, what is going on here? And then with a lot of therapy in different modalities of therapy, I went more into my past and I started to see, oh, I see. It's because of these things that have happened, and then I never process them, that some of them are still pulling me back. Some of them are holding me.

And until you did process them, what freedom did you actually have? It was like poppits on a string.

Oh, and I was almost a figment of... It's funny people say a figment of your imagination. That's almost what I was sometimes. I felt like I was something that my mind or that my soul or whatever had created to best facePersona.

Yes. Did you ever read Pinuco when I was a kid?

Oh, yeah. Geppetto, dude.

Yeah. Now, do you remember when Pinuco becomes a real boy, and he looks at his puppet self, and he says, I was so foolish when I was a puppet. But we're all so foolish when we're a puppet. We're not stupid, but we're unaware.

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Well, what started me on the journey was well into adulthood. For a long time, I didn't realize I was traumatized, just like you didn't. I just was a puppet on the string in some ways. I was successful. I was a well-respected family doctor, but I was unhappy. I felt I had potential that I hadn't even nearly touched, and I had no idea how to get there. My marriage had difficulties, a lot of tension. My children were facing their challenges, and in some ways, they were even afraid of me.

Like, afraid of your energy, afraid of like...

Afraid of my sudden odd bursts of uncontrolled. I don't mean physical violence. I mean just odd bursts of rage. Anger, yeah. I can relate to that. My son, Daniel, who helped me write The Myth of Normal, he says in the book that The floor was never the floor. He never knew when the floor might disappear. In other words, when the loving and devoted and playful parents might all of a sudden erupt in one of their traumas and the kids are there watching this hurricane sweep through the house, emotionally speaking. Well, that doesn't create a basis of trust or security. And it's not because we didn't love our kids. It's It's not because we didn't do our best. So looking at all that, at some point, I had to start asking, you had to start asking, Well, what's going on here? And that's when I started looking at what happened to me as a kid.

What were you like as a kid?What.

Was I like?Yeah. I was very smart.

I've heard you refer yourself as smart child. You like to rebel.

I was a rebel, yeah. In communist Hungary, you really had to follow the rules. The teacher at some point sent a warning to my parents saying that he better watch it because he agitates his classmates.

I love getting those.

I was very thoughtful. I wet my bed till I was 13.

Dude, I wet my bed, I think, till I was 26.

Oh, wow. Okay. And that does go back to early childhood trauma. When I was eight-year-old, my mother took me to a psychologist, and the psychologist took my history, Jewish infant born under the Nazis or living my first year under the Nazi occupation and all the horrors, and then the He was in separation from my mother for six weeks. He said to my mom, Madam, if the only problem this kid has is that he wets his bed, you're very fortunate. Well, I can tell you, that's not the only problem that I had. On the one hand, I was highly functioning, but on the other hand, I had all this unseen stuff that erupted later on.

Yeah, it's funny. You don't even know it's there, especially when you're a kid. You don't know.

No, you don't know.

Yeah, you don't know. You don't know that it's there. And then later you have to... It's almost like a fire that starts when you're young, but the smoke doesn't show up. For me, it wasn't until my 30s, and I was like, Where the is all this smoke coming from?

That's exactly right.

That's what happened to me. And then I had to go back and look at it. Yeah, it's like unprocessed trauma. It's like, imagine starting a fire, but no smoke comes out of it. That's unprocessed trauma.

Well, the-Is that makes sense or it doesn't? No, it makes total sense because what happens is, like when you said earlier, you were fine. The heck you were fine. You thought you were fine. That's because we pushed down all the rage that we never expressed as kids. We pushed on the pain, we pushed on the pain. We pushed on the isolation. We pretend. We can function in the world in ways that the world can give you in a respect and reward. Look, we're talking here in Hollywood. Look at all the figures here that were great successes, idles to millions, and they had these miserable inner lives. You can list 100 of them.

I got 50 of them in my phone.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that if the foundation isn't there, then you'll go find it in the world, right? Sometimes what you go find, even though you're just trying to replicate what you didn't get when you were young. That's right. It can be detrimental to you.

Which is why people get into unhealthy relationships, because where did we most want love when we were kids? When we most wanted to be seen? By whom? By the people that couldn't do it. Therefore, we will repeatedly look for people who can't see us and hoping that this time they will. They will.

It's so funny. I have this thing that came in in my head. I could jump off of a cliff, right? Yeah. But if I heard a mom come home from work, back on the top of that cliff, I would find I'd find a way to get... Or if I heard high heels, if I heard a woman's footsteps, I'd find a way to get back up there and look towards her.

Because you're looking for the mom.

Because I'm just... Yeah, it may sound crazy, but... Yeah, it's like I can't help but look. I can't help but wonder, does that woman accept me? Even with dating and all my relationships, I see it now. It's like, I'm always... Even in just any relationship, I'm or any moment, I'm just looking, do you accept me? I can feel this, Do you accept me?

Unfortunately, it really gets in the way of male/femal in our relationship. Oh, yeah. Because a lot of us, myself included, in my relationship with my spouse, in some ways, I just wanted to be mothered, not just loved as an adult, but actually mothered. On the one hand, on the other hand, I would resent it because I don't want to be controlled. It puts the woman into an impossible situation.

Oh, yeah. I would never date me.

Yeah.

Oh, jeepers.

Yeah, I wouldn't. Even now?

It's getting better, but it's getting better. Yeah. Those relationships are tough. I have trouble committing in a relationship. I did I did some ayahuasca ceremony. People do plant medicine.

Well, hey, you haven't read the chapter, Yaron Ayahuasca?

There's one in here?

Oh, yeah. Fuck, yeah, dude. I think it's Chapter 31.

So you had experience with it?

I used to lead retreats with it.

No way, bro.

Yeah. What were you going to say? That's amazing, dude. What were you going to say about it?

I was going to say that when I did a plant medicine retreat, that I realized one of the reasons why I've had trouble getting in relationships is Because I'm still waiting for this original relationship. The perfect mom. Yeah. And it's no blame. It's not a blame on my mom. I don't do that anymore. I lament some of the feelings from my youth, but I love my mother, and I'm grateful that she did the best that she could, and I believe that she did. But yeah, I realized there's just a part of me that is just still... I feel like it's a kid standing on a dock, waiting for a boat to come. That's how I envision it a lot of times.

So there's a deep longing.

Yeah.

I totally understand that.

Then you try to get someone else to fill it, and they don't even know what to do. For years, I didn't even know I was trying to get somebody to fill it. It just nothing. I couldn't figure it out.

There was that emptyness.

It was wild, man. My life was still okay, but just right below the surface level of my life, it was a precarious foundation.

I totally understand. I found out about ayahuasca after my book, An Addiction, got published in 2009. It's called In the realm of hunger Ghost, and it's about how addiction is not a genetic disease, it's a response to trauma as it affects the brain and the psyche. But after I published that book, I go on a book tour, and people got asking me, What do you know about addiction and its healing with ayahuasca? I said, I know nothing about it. Next visit, next stop. What do you know about it? Leave me alone already. I mean, you just spent three years writing the book and you're asking me what the one thing I don't know anything about. Then finally said, Somebody said, You could experience this up here in Vancouver because there's a Peruvian shaman who came up there. I did the ayahuasca, and I experienced pure love for the first time in my life. There's a little baby in the tent whose father had done that plant, and the mother was I was there with the baby, and the baby started cooing and ooing annoying. And these tears of love just flowed on my face. My heart just opened.

I realized how close my heart had been because it was so It grew so early that I closed it down. Not that I deliberately closed it down, but as a way of protecting it. That, right away, said, Okay, I can work with this to help people who are addicted. Now, I'm not here to advocate its use. It's not for everybody. It's certainly not a panacea. Psycholilics is a whole other conversation.

Yeah, same. I'm not saying anybody should-They have their place.

They're not the answer, and they're certainly not for everybody. But in the right context, with the right guidance, the right preparation, they can really help people open up to parts of themselves that they weren't even aware that they were there.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's fascinating. I hope that the knowledge of that evolves over time. But that can also be scary because some people go and get addicted to that. I've seen that happen with people.

I've seen it, too, because what people get addicted to is not so much to substances because nobody's going to get addicted to what's going on. Yeah, that's nasty.

You can't just have some at a club. But what they get addicted to is is the heightened experience.

If they don't know how to integrate what they've learned into their lives, then they keep looking for that elevated experience that takes them out of their ordinary self. I really think that that's one of the risks of psychedelic use is that you start looking for that elevated, heightened, or deepened experience that's missing from your life, where the whole thing is the The experience can open the door, but you got to walk through it, and you have to keep walking through it, not when you're under the influence of the medicine.Right.

The integration.The.

Integration, yeah.

It's so key. Yeah, we've lost... That's a huge part of our society. Now Maybe we just get a piece of information, and then we're like, Oh, we have the information, but we don't take as much time to integrate something into our life. That's one thing I've noticed for myself anyway. I don't want to pin on everybody, but I'll notice that sometimes I'll learn something, I'll learn a I'll learn a way that I've, Oh, I know this about me now, or this is something I've learned. But unless I integrate the solution to that or the information from that, the positive information, Instead of just shouting it out that I know it, actually integrating it and taking time to integrate it. Even taking time, if you go to a church sermon or a mosque sermon or-Yeah, Synagoga. Synagoga A synagogue sermon, you had Jewish church. I still still have a synagogue sermon. You can hear a message, right? But then you can just go on about your day. But taking time to integrate a message in your life, what did I hear? How does it make me feel? That's right. What do I think about it? I think we used to have a lot more time to do that just because our society wasn't so...

Our lives weren't so frenetic.

Well, I think we're addicted. Particularly, I think the United States is addicted to the quick fix.

Yeah, that Earl Shabb.

Yeah.

The spray paint it. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Have you struggled with addiction before? Have I struggled with addiction? I know you struggled with work addiction, I think you talked about.

I've had two major addictions. One is workaholism. Again, I have to make a distinction here. I did good work, and I did work that had meaning and made a contribution. That's good. That's the calling. But then there's another part of it, which is being driven. When you're being driven, you're not in charge. You're like a leaf being driven by the wind. I was driven to work because I have to keep proving my importance and that people should like me, people should respect me. Why? Because I didn't respect myself. Because I got this message early in life that I just wasn't important. I believed it. The trauma is not, for example, the trauma It's not, for example, that my mother gave me to a stranger when I was 11 months old to save my life. That wasn't the trauma. That was the traumatic event. Trauma is what happens inside you. The trauma inside me was that I concluded from that that I wasn't lovable. I wasn't important. Now, that drives the work addiction because you have to keep proving to yourself. The other addiction I had, and people often laugh, and I can call that an addiction, but really it was, was shopping for classical compact disc.CDs?CDs. But I could drop $3,000, $4,000 a day on them.

You can't even smoke them. No, you can't smoke them. No sooner will I leave the store, but I have to run I'd like to get some more. So it wasn't about the having and the enjoying. I love the music, but it wasn't about that. It was about getting more and more and more and never enough. I would lie to my wife about it. I would sometimes neglect my work. I I don't think I mentioned this in this book, but in my Book of Addiction, I talk about how I left a woman in labor once to go get a compact disk. Wow.

What album was it?

That I don't remember anymore. I think it was a Mozart symphony, but I don't remember anymore. I'm not talking about my passion. I'm not talking about my passion for music. I'm talking about my drivenness. Sometimes people say, Well, how can you compare your addictions to your heroin addicted, cocaine addicted, HIV ridden? Clients. And I said, I don't. I said, The differences are obvious. It's the similarities that are interesting. And when I told my patients in the downtown East Side who were using the heroin and the cocaine and whatever, I got these...

These Boys to Men albums, yeah.

Yeah, and they said... They never said, How can you compare? You know what they said? Hey, Doc, you're just like the rest of us, aren't you?

And my point is, we are all just like the rest of us. We all find some chronic escape.

Not all of us. Most people, whether it's drugs, pornography, sex, internet, cell phones.

Gambling, there's so many.

Gambling, self-cutting, eating, shopping.

Running, working out.

That's a huge one. Extreme working out and all that. We're running away from ourselves. When I ask people, not what's wrong with your addiction, because that's obvious, but what's right about it? For example, you've had alcohol or drug issues. I've heard you say. What did they do for you in the short term?

I think it just gave me a break from how I wanted to feel. It gave me a break from me.

It gave you a break from how you felt?

Yeah, it gave me a break from my feelings. It just gave me a break from me.

But that's because you were really uncomfortable with yourself. Yeah. And because you had feelings that were painful. So my mantra on addiction, which I mentioned in this book, is don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. And if you understand why people have pain, don't look at their genes. Look at their lives. What happened to them.

Yeah. I've heard you, in your book, you talk about addiction. If you recognize the harm, or I think it might have been in an interview you did, if you recognize the harm it's doing and you keep doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. So addiction is manifested in any behavior in which a person finds temporary relief or pleasure and therefore craves, but then suffers negative consequences, and they don't give it up. So pleasure, craving, relief in the short term, harm in the long term, refusal or inability to let go of it, that's what an addiction is. So it's got nothing to do with drugs. Well, it could have to do with drugs.

It could have to do with any of the things we already mentioned.

But any of the things we mentioned.

But why the pain? That's the question.

The question is why the pain? What are we running away from?

Right. Yeah, I had... Once I saw a pornography and stuff like that, it was like, and I could do masturbation or jerking off or whatever people call it. But once that was the first way that I realized, Oh, I can make myself feel good. And it was the first time that I like, Yeah, I could make myself feel good. And so then it just It became a way that I always... I mean, I would just... But yeah, I would just... The only way I knew how to make myself really feel good, even though it was just for a moment, that I would take it.

Listen, shall I tell you something scientific about that? Yeah. So cocaine addicts and crystal meth addicts, or any stimulant addicts, in fact, all addicts, amongst the things they're looking for is a hit of dopamine. Dopamine is the incentive, motivation, chemical in our brain. It's what makes us feel vital and alive and ready to go. And without it, we can't survive. Now, cocaine, crystal meth-Without it, we can't survive.

No, we can't. That's cool to hear. It's interesting.

Oh, no, because dopamine flows in the brain when we're exploring a novel object or a novel environment, when we're seeking food, when we're seeking a sexual partner. We can't survive without that stuff. You can take a mouse in a laboratory and put food in front of him, and he's hungry, but he won't eat. Why? Because genetically, you knocked out his dopamine receptors, and he doesn't have the motivation. So it's the motivation It's the motivation chemical. It's absolutely essential. No, cocaine, caffeine, nicotine, crystal meth, they literally give you a direct hit of dopamine. So does pornography. When you do a brain scan on some people, they get repeated spikes of dopamine. It's not the pornography they're addicted to. It's that hit of dopamine that they get in their brains. Wow. All addictions, shopping. When I went to the record store, it was the dopamine. I've been diagnosed with ADHD. The first book I wrote was on ADD. And spacing out, absent-mindedness, all this stuff.

Oh, yeah, daydream, they used to call it.

Yeah. But when I I was in the record store, I was present. I was focused. I could almost remember which records I bought at which store at what time because the dopamine was flowing like crazy. And that's why I needed to go back. It wasn't because I needed more music.

Yeah, the trunk's full.

I was after that. I was hiding the disks on the porch in the attic so my wife wouldn't call me.

But I was after that. The ceiling caves in. It's just a bunch of Van Halen. Yeah.

I was after that dopamine.Dopamine, wow.

Which is what you're after with the pornography. Yeah.

It was a way to make me feel good. It was the first way that I could interact with a woman where it felt like I could... I know it's not real interaction, but it was like, this is the safest, closest I can get to interacting with a woman and it being okay, because I would get so nervous around women, or if women looked at me, I would like my whole bot. I couldn't handle it. But yeah, that dopamine is interesting to hear. So no matter what it is, it's the dopamine behind it.

It's the dopamine. And there's another chemical that's involved in many addictions, like the heron addicts or the opiate addicts, the phentan addicts, those are opiates which come from the opium plant. But why did they work in the human brain? Why would an opium plant work in the human brain? Because we have receptors for them. We have the molecules that receives the opiate molecule. Now, why do we have receptors from a plant that grows in Afghanistan? We don't. We have receptors for our own internal opiates. So we have an internal opiate system. And They are called endorphins. Endorphin means endogenous internal opiate.

So our endorphins are our own opiates? Opiates. So we manufacture our own opiates?

Not only we do, plants do, animals do, everybody does. Now, the question is, what do the do in the human brain? They do a whole lot of things. But three, importantly, they relieve pain, physical and emotional pain, because pain is necessary for life. Otherwise, I could smash my hand on this table.

Yeah, you jump out of a window and wouldn't care.

But I also have to some pain relief. That's the endorphins, number one. Number two, what they do is they give you a sense of pleasure and reward. When people go bungee jumping, they get this high level of endorphins. That's what they're after.

That's why they keep doing wild stuff like that.

That's right. The third thing is the most important. The endorphins help to make possible this little thing called love. If you knock out the endorphin receptors of little mice in the laboratory, they will not cry for their mother's on separation. What would that mean in the wild? It would mean their death. So endorphins connect people to each other, especially parents and children.

So we're each other's opiates, in a way.

We're each other's opiates, especially in a healthy parent-child relationship. They both have endorphine flowing in their brain when they're looking to each other's eyes. When I ask her on addicts or opiate addicts, a sex trade worker, I asked once, What does the heroine do for you? She said, When the first time I did heroine, it felt like a warm, soft hug.What was she talking about?Connection. Connection, yeah. In this book, I talk about it, and so many of the addicts, a well-known recovery leader and fearless advocate is Jamie Lee Curtis. And she told me-Is she? Sorry?

She is.

Oh, yeah. She's a big twelve-stepper. I didn't know that. Oh, no, she's a huge twelve-stepper. That's awesome. And very forthright about her addictions and also her recovery.

Wow, that's fascinating. I'd love to talk with her. I've seen her eating lunch in the Pacific Palisades before.

But she told me that what the opius did for her, give her a sense of warmth in the belly. That warmth is what we're all after. That comes from human connection. When we didn't have the connections we needed early in life, then we keep looking for that warmth from other sources. So these people that are addicted to opiates, that's what they're looking for.A.

Bunch of hug hunters.Yeah. I want to go back a little bit to trauma and isolation. I wanted to ask, what is it about not being emotionally isolated that allows one to process a trauma?

Yeah. I did a day-along event here in LA, just the day before we were recording this. I worked with a woman called Kimberly Shannon Murphy, who was one of Hollywood's top stunt women. She just got a lifetime achievement award as a stuntman.

Congratulations, Kim.

She worked with Cameron Diaz and Uma Thurman and Tom Cruise and all these people. A lot of artists. No. She was sexually abused by her grandfather all throughout her childhood and adolescence. Of course, the family was in denial. Nobody noticed it. If they noticed it, they kept silent about it. She was totally alone with it. That's what induced the wound. Had she been able to talk to somebody and say, This is happening to me. Please help me, she would not have been traumatized. The trauma happens when a child suffers and has nobody to share that suffering with, whether it's the extreme suffering or sexual abuse, or the milder you might say suffering or just not being seen for where you are. If you're alone with it, you can't process it. What happens later on, to answer your question, when you meet somebody where you feel safe, and now you can express what's happening with you, that's what helps to process the trauma. Got it. It requires compassion and safety. Ideally, I mean, I criticize the 12-step groups, not for what they do, because I love what they do, for what they don't do. I don't think they talk about trauma enough.

That's my view. But a 12-step group that's properly run will offer you support and safety. So now you can share yourself and be seen by others.

Amen. Yeah. I mean, I've gotten even into the intimacy disorder groups, and those are a lot more potent with people talking about their emotional disorders and traumas and things that happen. And it's not a cry baby group either. Sometimes we talk about trauma, but I don't talk about it from a cry baby place. I like to talk about it from this is important, and it's important to learn about. And I like to share what I learn about from it.

It's not about people victimizing themselves or trying to present themselves as a victim saying, this is what happened to me, and it's my responsibility to learn from it. That's the truth. And it's my responsibility to to grow from it, not to wallow in all of what happened to me, and I can't help it. That's nonsense.

Oh, I'll tell you this, Mr. Mante, that a thing I realized I was addicted to a few years ago, self-pity, and I didn't even know it. I kept always thinking, Man, what's wrong with me? I have to fix this. Every day, nothing was enough. And then I realized that even though it seemed like I was trying to make myself better, the truth was that I was always I'm seeing myself as less than because those things have to both be present at the same time. Because I can only get better. I'm never enough. By never being enough, though, I'm trying to figure this out. I got addicted to self-pity. I got addicted to like-Can I jump in with a thought?

Yes, please.

Thank you. Dear God, please.

It did something for you. It took away responsibly from you. Now, human beings have a hard time taking responsibility. I have a hard time taking responsibility. We all have a hard time taking responsibility. When you're in that self-pity mode, you're suffering, but you don't have to take responsibility. I'm suggesting that's what it did for you.

Yeah, I think maybe there was a part of me that wanted to keep it around because it always let there be something wrong with me, too. That's If I never solve this, if I'm never enough, then there'll always be something wrong with me. Does that make any sense?

It makes sense because, again, it takes away the challenge of growth. I mean, When you talk about growing pains. Growth is painful.

Oh, yeah. People go from damn seven inches to seven feet, six and a half, six, one, or whatever.

Emotional growth is also painful. And so when we don't grow, at least we avoid the growing pains.

Yeah, whenever I used to smoke, I used to be like, part of me didn't want to quit smoking because I wanted to have an excuse for why I wasn't doing other things.

Right.

That makes sense?

It makes a little sense.

Little sense is enough. I'll take it. Does blue chew work? I can answer it. Yup. I chew on them things, baby. Baby, get that diving board, baby. Make your own pool. If you're asking that question, does Blue Chew work? We want you to know that Blue Chew is putting their money where their mouth is by giving you a month free B. Blue Chew is an online service that delivers the same active ingredients as Viagra, Cialis, and Lovitra, but at a fraction of the cost and in a chewable form. Blue Chew wants men rock hard. They told me, that's the mission. They will not stop until every man is bricked up. Until every 10 is pitched. Until every rod is raised. Salute. Discover your options at bluechew. Com. We've got a special deal for our listeners. Try Bluechew free when you use our promo code, Theo, at checkout. Just pay five dollar shipping. That's bluechew. Com, promo code Theo. To receive your first month free, visit bluechew. Com for more details and important safety information. We thank Bluechew for supporting the podcast. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. When your mental clarity or your focus or your ability to process something in your life is not where it should be.

If you're struggling, showing up for your family or yourself, you may need therapy. I've gone. I recommend it. Better Help can help. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give Better Help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Therapy can help you learn to accept all parts of yourself so you can take off the mask. Take off the mask with Betterhelp. Visit betterhelp. Com/tf. H-e-o today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p. Com/theo. We thank Betterhelp for sponsoring this episode. Oh, yeah. What else do I want to talk to? Oh, this is really fascinating stuff here. So trauma fosters a shame-based view of the self. I'd love to talk a little bit about shame, man, because that was a huge part of my life.

Tell me about it.

I just felt ashamed of myself. I felt ashamed of how I looked. I felt ashamed of my ears, my nose, my face, the way I stood. I felt Yeah, I felt ashamed of my family, of my home. I just felt a ton of it. I'm not whining about it right now. I'm just thinking back, but yeah, I just felt a ton of shame. I felt like I think I felt ashamed of who I was at the first molecule, almost, the first cell of the dirt under the roots. It felt like there was a part of me that felt like I was me or anything that had to do was gross. I understand. I used the word gross because it felt like gross.

Now, the only thing I'll say is... It's not that you felt you were gross, it's you believed you were.

Right, yes. Yeah, you're right. I didn't feel it. It wasn't like a feeling on the surface of me. It was like a knot someone had tied a long time ago in the beginning of my time. In there, In that knot, it was in there somewhere, and I couldn't really even access it. But shame. Yeah, I want to hear about shame. Did you feel it?

Oh, yeah.

How did you feel?

Well, growing up in Hungary, in Eastern Europe, and I lived there until I was 13, there was a lot of anti-Semitism. My grandparents had died in Auschwitz. I almost died as an infant, my mother, my father.

That's when your mother gave you to someone else to save you? That's right, yeah.

When I was 11 months of age. But even after the war, there was anti-Semitism. And so I'd feel ashamed of being Jewish. I don't anymore, but I did as a kid, so I would... Then I was ashamed of my Jewish looks.

Oh, so you have to hide or you have to feel like, yeah.

Yeah, there's something It's different about me that isn't quite right. There was a lot of anti-Semitism and taunting in the school that I went to when I look back on it now. Then I developed body shame. To this day, it's interesting. But every day, I judge aspects of my body. Oh, yeah. This is not big enough. It's too big or whatever.

Yeah, this is too big.

Yeah. So shame. But shame, nobody's born with shame. Really? No infant is born ashamed of themselves. They're totally there.

Yeah, that's true. If you saw a little infant that was ashamed of themselves, ashamed of himself, it would break your heart.

Yeah.

No. They wouldn't even know how to do it.

How infants get shamed is when they're not seen.

Yeah, and what happens then?

Well, Or if they're mistreated. Well, let's say a child is not seen or worse is being hurt. Now, they can make two assumptions. One is these adults are stupid, they're incapable, they're incompetent. I'm all alone in the world. Or the child can believe there's something wrong with me, and maybe if I can work hard enough, I can fix it. Now, which belief do you think is more acceptable for the child?

The second one.

The second one. So then to develop this deep sense that there's something wrong with us. We just have to work hard enough or look good enough or something, and then maybe we can fix. So even that shame, which comes out from being cut off from It comes from being cut off from human contact the way we need it. It has a protective value. Really? Because it makes us at least think that there's something we can do.

It It gives us hope in a weird way.

It gives us hope in a weird way, yeah. But here's the thing. Children are narcissists, young children. When I say narciss, I don't mean in a pathological sense. I mean in the sense they think it's all about them.

Right. And they don't have any other choice. They're all they know.

That's all they know. So if the parents are happy and connected and there's an atmosphere of loving, acceptance, and so on, then the child thinks, Hey, I, I must be pretty good.

I must be good. Yeah, everything's good. I'm okay.

But if the parents are stressed, depressed, traumatized, racially challenged, economically challenged, or such terrible things as the children in Gaza are experiencing right now with the daily bombings and all this stuff, what can they think that there's something wrong with me?

Oh, imagine some kid over there in Gaza looking up and there's a bomb, and they think, Man, I'm so horrible. I deserve to be bombed.

Well, you know what? There was a study done of guys and children.

Man, that's crazy. I hadn't thought about that. Really, imagine that, though.

There was a study done of children in Palestine 21 years ago, and 95 % of those... This is long before the current horrors, long before October the seventh, long before the aftermath of October the seventh. 95 % of those kids showed traumatic symptoms, high percentage with their beds, like you and I did. They expressed aggression towards their parents. They had panic attacks, anxiety, fears. Can you imagine what's going to happen to that generation? Years from now? Years from now. I mean, it just breaks my heart every day when I think about it. And I know a lot of my My fellow Jews don't agree with me. But as a Jewish person, I'm not the only one who feels that way. It especially breaks my heart.

When you put it in that sense, imagine a kid like... You Yeah, because what are they going to think? They don't know. They just think, Man, something's so wrong with me. I deserve to be killed or something. I don't know.

It depends if the adults are able to hold them and and keep them feeling loved. But 19,000 kids have been orphaned. When I say orphaned, I don't mean just that their parents have died. Their extended families have been wiped out. What's going to be the future of those kids?

It's just a terrible-No, it's heartbreaking. I mean, it feels like a genocide is going on over there, and you don't know what to do. It's like... You can You pray, you can speak up about it. And I know that there's more political aspects of it. And we've had different people come on to talk about Israel and Palestine on here, and it was very knowledgeable for a lot of our listeners because you hear about it a lot, but you don't know the history and everything. Well, I've been there.

I went there two and a half years ago to work with the Palestinian women tortured in Israeli jails. And they had post-traumatic stress disorder. I've seen it with my own eyes. Who's the Black American writer, Tana Hasi Coates?

Tana Hasi Coates? Yeah.

He just written a new book, and he talks about visiting Palestine. And he says, Yeah, Tana Hasi Coates. In his new book, he says, Why don't you go there and see it, you can't unsee it.

Our media doesn't cover it super fairly. I feel like our media doesn't cover it super fairly. That'd be interesting to speak with him then. Thank you for bringing his name up.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's It's an outbreak in any time something's happening to a child. That should be the one thing that we can all figure out this shouldn't happen. No.

It's also the truth that it's also happening to kids in Israel. There's bombs and rockets and so on. I don't know if this is the time to go into the politics of it. It's not a question of valuing or esteeming one suffering over another. We don't compare traumas, but the degree in the scale of suffering in Gaza is unprecedented.

Look, it seems like it.

When my wife walks into a room, I'm 80, I'm typing away, I'm reading a book, she walks into the room and I don't hear her. All of a sudden, I hear her, I go like this. No, this is the startle response of an infant. If you take a three-month-old who's sitting there, he's lying there, and you go like this, it's called the startle reflex. That's built into me because when I was three months of age and throughout my first year, Budapest was being bombed by the Allies. Wow. Quite apart from the anti-Semitism and the genocide, there was the war going on. So I'd be thrown into a laundry basket, and they'd rush me down to the basement. So when I hear a noise, I still go like this. Now, this is eight years later.

Or when you see a load of laundry go by. Man, so we can stay with... So what you're saying is it can stay with you that long?

It can stay with you that long.

It gets locked in you in your cells, really.

It's actually literally locked into your cells and into your chromosomes.

Yeah, it's heartbreaking for those children on both sides. And just anywhere, anytime you think... And even a kid, when they think... Even in America, it's like we're bombing each other. We can't figure out a way. There's a huge planet here. We can't figure out. How can we not figure out a way that we can live? All God is asking us to do is be alive and do it without war. It seems unreal that we can't figure that out, man.

It seems unreal. The great spiritual teachers have been addressing that insanity for thousands of years.

Gaba, how does shame cause us to lose compassion for ourselves?

Let me tell you a story. I mentioned this in The Myth of Normal. After my book, An Addiction, came out, In the realm of hunger ghosts, I got an email, not an email, a letter from a guy in Seattle, and he said, I really appreciate your book and showing how trauma causes. It's one of that. Addiction is not the only outcome of trauma, but it's one of the outcomes of trauma, one of the potential outcomes of trauma. He I really appreciate all that. But he says, I can't play my mother. It's my own fault that I'm a shit. I thought, Oh, my God, you're a poor guy. You still see yourself that way. But lack of compassion. Because if he actually fully understood, that he was just a baby at some point, needing and wanting to be loved and held and seen and valued just for being a human being. That didn't happen to him. That caused so much pain in him that he escaped into some drug addiction. He's not a shit. He's just a hurt human being. But that lack of self-compassion, I see it all the time in my workshops when I do therapy work with people, one of my main tasks is to help them to notice, not to criticize them for it, but to help them to be aware of how they lack compassion for themselves.

It's hard to even notice that you're getting in the shame circle. It's so hard to even notice that you're in it. You can be living in the center of it. That's how I was with self-pity. I was living it. I just didn't realize it. And the self-pity was manifesting itself like, Oh, you can figure this out. But by trying to constantly help myself figure it out, all I was doing was focusing on my own being not good enough, which in a way is really just self-pity.

But it's also like with self-compassion.

Yeah. Not giving Give yourself some grace. I remember the first time somebody said, Hey, man, give yourself some grace. I'd never even...

I was like, Wow. Because people find themselves accusing themselves and talk to themselves in ways that they would never talk to others. Yeah. But most people wouldn't. Some would, but most wouldn't.

Can you notice characteristics or actualities in your life today that you can directly correlate to side effects childhood trauma?

My own?

Yeah.

Well, my capacity to get triggered. But see, triggered is an interesting word because we keep using it. But what does it mean? Well, it means a reaction that's way out of proportion to the actual stimulus. When you actually look at where the metaphor comes from, it comes from a gun. Now, how big a part of the gun is the trigger? Small. Small little part. What makes the trigger work is that there's ammunition and an explosive charge. So as long as I'm full of explosive charges, which is my unresolved trauma, Some of you say, Boo, and I'll go, Boo. So my capacity to get triggered, my difficulty believing that I was really loved and accepted in my marriage relationship, even though I was. Wow. My tendency to blame others for my own reactions rather than taking responsibility. In there? We mentioned the addictive behaviors. Certainly, the first book I wrote in ADHD, it's called Scattered Minds. My scattered mind is certainly an outcome of early stress because that dissociation, that tuning out, it's just an escape mechanism. The way I was unable to see my kids for the beautiful, sensitive creatures that they were in my workaholism, it's showing up in so many ways.

You said that not believing that people love us. Yeah. Dude, that's huge, man. Yeah. What is that? Why do we sometimes... You'll be in a marriage, in a relationship, and we'll still believe that person, they don't love me, or we won't believe their affections. What did you say?

Yeah, we won't believe we're loved or accepted. Well, Peter Levine, who's one of the great trauma teachers, he talked about trauma being the tyranny of the past.

The tyranny of the past?

The tyranny.

The tyranny of the past.

So we're in the present moment, but we're actually reacting to the past. Now, Throughout the first year of my life, given our situation, my mother was really stressed, unhappy, even terrorized. She couldn't give me that calm, attuned, loving attention that I I need it. She did her best, for God's sakes. What could be greater love than for a 24-year-old young woman to give her a baby to a total stranger in the street? But how do I experience it? I experience this as a rejection. So the person that ought to be loving me is giving me away. I can only conclude from that that I'm not lovable.

I see.

Now, once I don't think I'm lovable, I'm not going to believe that anybody actually loves me, no matter what they manifest or what they show me. And then I'm blaming them for my own sense of unlovable. This is unprocessed trauma we're talking about. A hundred %.

Yeah, I've almost even thought it. Sometimes I thought like, Oh, you're dumb for loving me.

Yeah, but that's the other side of it. It's like Garcho Marx said, that I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member. So anybody would love me. They can't be very bright, can't they?

They must be out of their minds. You talk also about not parent blaming, which I think is really important. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Yeah. Well, look.

I mean, your story right there about your mother gave you away because it was the... Yeah, I mean, imagine the terror, the pain in her of the most loving thing I can do is put my child somewhere else away from me right now for its own safety.

That's exactly right. Well, all parents, we're born with a caring instinct. We're born with certain emotional systems in our brain. Play is one of them. Curiosity seeking the dopamine circuit is another one. Caring, loving is another one. We're just born with that.It's instinctual.We are? All mammals are born with it. Oh, yeah. No mammal infant would survive without it.

Right.

I never doubt that parents love their kids, or that there's at least an impulse in them to do so. But the love that the parent feels is not that the love what the parent the child receives. What the child receives is the quality of the parents' presence. Are they calm? Are they attuned? Are they emotionally present? Are they preoccupied, stressed, depressed, traumatized, overworked, whatever. Any of those conditions, the child does not experience the love in its whole sense. Right. Even though you might know that your mother loved you, and I'm sure she did in her own way, and she did her very best, but she was not able to give you those qualities that you would really, in your heart, experience as love. Yeah. In this society where, as you said earlier, parents have to go to work just to put bread on the table, and where so many people are economically insecure, where there's so much stress, so much division, so much angst, so much aggression, so much What's it like to be a parent? It's really, really difficult. And don't forget, we didn't evolve in nuclear families. We evolved in groups where kids were around nurturing adults the whole day, including their parents, but not only their parents.

So in today's society, parenting has become an almost an impossible task. Why would I blame any parent? I'll even I say this, and I'm not trying to excuse anything because there's no excuse. That's not the point. But if you look at parents who abuse their kids, what happened to them as kids?They.

Were abused, for sure.They.

Were abused. It's multigenerational. It's not that they grew up. It's not that they decide, I'm going to abuse my kids. They just act out what happened to them. I think blame... Now, responsibility is one thing, blame is another. I think blame is totally unscientific, it's cruel, and it's totally inappropriate. As much as I point out the impact of early experience, there's obviously no room for blaming parents. Theo, what's really interesting to me is after I wrote my book on addiction, occasionally, some strange person will come up to me and said, My child died of an overdose, and I thank you for writing the book. I always find that a bit startling because in the book, I'm saying that it's childhood experience and trauma that ultimately result in addiction. And they say, You know what? Because I finally get it. I finally understand what happened. And I get it as a multi-generational That it's nobody's fault. There's nobody to be blamed here. The question is, in each generation, can we take responsibility so we don't pass it on to the next one? But blame, there's no room for it. Robert Sapolsky, the scientist who I quoted, he said, There's just no room for blame.

Yeah, you can have discussions about responsibility and things like that and share, Hey, I think you could have been more responsible about this, or seeing something that was somebody's responsibility. But yeah.

And you can even be angry.

Right. You can be angry.

Without blaming. Because why How can you be angry when those things happen to you? So it's not a question of telling people, Don't be angry. But having anger and owning it is not the same as saying, You did something deliberately that you shouldn't have done, and you should have known better, and you said terrible. There's anger, healthy anger, necessary anger. Then there is the expectation that people take responsibility, each for ourselves. And then there's blame, which is a whole other bag of monkeys.

Yeah. It's a zoo we don't need to be involved in.

No, we don't need that.

What makes you laugh? Is there shows you like to watch or a thing you like- Sometimes what makes me laugh is my own ridiculousness. Yeah, sometimes me too. I know it's going to be a good day if I find that I'm laughing at myself.

Yeah, Yeah, well, there's so many... The little human ego is... I mean, on the one hand, we can be compassionate towards it, but on the other hand, it's so ridiculous. So we can laugh it ourselves. My wife and I laugh a lot.Oh, you do? Yeah, that's one of our saving. It's been 55 years in a month, and I tell you, we've laughed so much together at ourselves, at each other. That's adorable. What makes me laugh?Usually, absurdity.Yeah?

When things are absurd, they make me laugh. They're so out of touch of reality. Yeah. Those are the things that make me laugh.

Is there a film that you like? What's a movie that you like? I'm just trying to just know a little bit more about you.

Yeah. A movie that made me laugh. What is a couple of movies? Fish called Wanda. Oh, yeah. Talking about Jamie Lee Curtis. That, I roared my head off about that one. I don't have such a good memory for that stuff. A funny book will make me laugh.

Do you have a favorite one or just a fiction book that you like?

I tend to go for the classics, so I keep rereading the Eliad by Homer. With the Trojan War. I keep rereading Dostoevsky. I just reread the Brothers Karamazov last year because it's such a deep understanding of the human soul, the darkness and the lightness, both of the human soul.

It's fascinating. Yeah.

I tend to go for the classics myself. I read some modern novels, but not that often. By the way, you know what made me laugh? Catch 22. I reread that a couple of years ago. I split a gut.

Who was it? Not John Steinbeck who wrote that?

Joseph Heller.

Joseph Heller, Catch 22.

I think it was Joseph Heller is his first name.

We had to read that, I think, in school.

Well, by modern standards, there's some parts of it that are really sexist and misogynist, and in some places, even racist. I'm not making any excuse for that. It was the zeitgeist at the Yeah, sure. But it's just reproringly funny about the absurdity of war and the self-puffery of important people. Yeah.

I'll have to check it out, man. I think I had to read it sometime, but maybe in college, we had to read it. Did you ever read John Irving, any of his books? Like The World According to Garp, remember that book?

I started reading that decades ago. I never finished it.

Yeah, it happened. Some of his books, his latest book, I don't even know what it is. It's very long. I mean, you need to bring a tent with you.

Recently, there was a book that's caught a lot of attention, Demon Copperhead by or a King Solver. And she wrote the Poisonwood Bible. That's her most famous book. But Demon Copperfield, Copperhead, is a modern take on David Copperfield by Charles Dickens. And it takes place in Appalachia. I just saw an interview with her yesterday, how she goes after JD Vance. Because she's in Appalachian.

Right, so they're both from that area.They're both from that area.The.

Different mindsets. And she's saying, Buddy, you don't represent us. Interesting. And demon Copperhead takes on the hillbilly image of Appalachians and plays with it beautifully.

Wow, I'd love to check that out. She seems like an interesting woman.

She's a very interesting woman. She's very thoughtful, very forthright.

That'd be cool. Yeah, maybe after I read the book, I could see if she would want to come and visit. Sometimes I always feel like I have to explain my intentions. There's a part of me that always feels like I'm manipulating somebody. Do you know what I'm talking about?

That's not a feeling.

What is it? It's a thought?

It's a belief.

It's a belief.

Yeah. No. And there's a reason why you have it.

Even if I'm just doing something nice, there's a part of me that's like, Oh, you're-Yeah, you think you're a fake.

It's called the imposter syndrome. It has to do with the fact that you couldn't be real as a kid. In some ways, you had to pretend. It's really hard to let go of that, of that sense that I'm still doing it. It's what you go up with. You could be kind to that part of yourself. Okay. The part that... You could actually... Because it's not a feeling, Theo. It's a belief. And the beliefs can be... You don't argue with feelings, but beliefs you can challenge. Is it really true that you're manipulating? When you're talking to me now, are we having a genuine conversation?

I believe that we are.

Or is it true that you're actually manipulating me in any way at all?

No, I don't think I am.

And furthermore, give me some credit. Maybe you can't want to blame me even if you wanted to.

That's very fair, dude.

That fear of yours is both a lack of compassion towards yourself and a lack of, in a sense, trust in the other person's capacity to look after themselves.

That's a good point. Yeah. It's just funny. I was just talking with my brother yesterday because we had similar childhoods, and we were thinking of, what are some things that I could think about to talk with them about? We were talking about that, that sometimes we always feel like we're manipulating ourselves, or that our ability to manipulate would be so powerful that we wouldn't even know what we're doing, which is pretty crazy, too.

It's a lack of self-trust.

Lack of self-trust.

Now, you know what? Have I manipulated? Yes, I have.

Yeah, sure.

But this is not a question that one ever does it, but I know when I'm manipulating. Usually, it's because I want something that I don't know how to state directly, or I'm afraid that I might not get otherwise. Then I'm afraid to show up with my vulnerable request.

Which would make sense as a child. There was something you wanted that you didn't think you were going to get otherwise. That's right. So you didn't show it.

Yeah.

It makes sense.

Children manipulate out of a sense of weakness. That's pretty much all they can do if otherwise they don't get their knees in.

A lot of your book that I've read so far, it's getting to the part where it's like that Western medicine doesn't always take into context as much that the body and the mind, us as an entire thing as our society. It's almost like, say, if the whole world and time and culture and everything were a car, instead of the doctor looking They don't look at the car, they just look at the human, which would just be one part of the car. And so they're always just working on this one part instead of looking at the whole car, which could also be a cause of why the part isn't doing well.

That's the whole point. And See, we have to make a distinction here. There's Western science, then there's medical practice. Understood. The two are not the same necessarily. Okay, thank you. I was trained as a medical doctor. Nobody ever taught me about the mind the unity. But physiologically, you can't separate the mind from the body so that our emotional circuits and the immune system and the hormonal apparatus and the nervous system are actually one system. They're not separate systems. When things happen emotionally, naturally, they have a physiological effect. I could give you 10,000 examples. Children whose parents are stressed are much more likely to have asthma.

Children of what?

Children whose parents are stressed are much more likely to have asthma. Okay. So the airway is narrow and they get inflamed. There's a study that showed that Black American women, the more episodes of racism they experience, the higher the risk of asthma.

Wow.

It's been shown that women with severe PTSD have double the risk of ovarian cancer. This is a study out of or of a university. Adults who experience the loss of an adult child have a higher risk of malignancy of the bone marrow and the blood. Grief. Grief. A Danish study, Parents Who Lost a Child Have Doubled the Risk of Multiple Sclerosis. There are hundreds of studies showing the physiological impact of stress and trauma and loss on the physiology.

So manifesting itself in our bodies as a disease or contributing to...

Contributing the onset of the disease. Got it.

Yeah, because cancer, it's like you say in the book, people get cancer. A lot of times you hear the guy got cancer, he died three weeks later. You hear that all the time. But the cancer had been there forever. Yeah. And it just enough had happened, I guess, that it turned over into being-Well, we know that stress, for example, can turn off genes that protect you against cancer and turn on genes that can cause cancer.

Really? Yeah. It's not even controversial. And we know that people that repress their healthy anger, they're actually suppressing their immune system. This has been studied over and over again, and great clinicians have been recognizing this forever. In 2,400 years ago, Socrates, the Greek philosopher, said that the problem with the doctors of today is that they separate the mind from the body. Wow. 2,400 years ago. Now, I can name you any number of great medical pioneers, I mentioned someone in the book who 150 years ago, 100 years ago, 80 years ago, 40 years ago, pointed out that mind and body can't be separated, that in fact, we are biopsychosocial creatures, which means that our biology is inseparable from our psyche or emotional apparatus and from our social relationships.

Wow. So all of it.

It's all one. It's scientifically, it's all one. The problem is medical practice doesn't recognize that oneness. So most of the time, you go to a physician with rheumatoid arthritis or multiple sclerosis, for both of which there's plenty of evidence about the role of trauma and stress. But the doctor is never going to ask you about any of that stuff. They're just going to deal you with the deal with the physical aspects of it, which they should deal with. But they also need to look at the whole, what happened in this person's life and what's stressing them now, and how can we help with that part of it? So Medical practice, as a doctor, I don't know how to be told how miraculously effective the achievements of modern medicine can be. For sure. But at the same time, there's a huge piece that we're missing. And that peace is not just intuitive or spiritual. It's science. But they don't teach that mind, body, unity science in the medical schools.

Yeah. In fact, the peace is a hole. That's what they're missing.

They're missing the wholeness. Now, if you look at the Indigenous medicine, there's the medicine wheel, which consists of four quadrants. There's the physical, our physiology. There's the mental, which is our emotions and our There's the social, which is our relationships with other people and other creatures. And then there's the spiritual, which is our connection with something greater than just a little ego, however you define that. And health, they say, depends on a balance between those four quadrants. Scientifically, that's totally true. But unfortunately, that science is largely ignored in medical training.

I'm sure, yeah. Well, especially now, a lot of our medicine has been compromised, or I think our industry has. Oh, yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know your industry, and I'm not trying to offend it, but it certainly seems like just... Most industries have a lot of have been compromised. The fact to have better balance sheets than...

But look, if you continue with depression, by the way, that's another diagnosis that I've It's bad. I've actually taken medication for depression, so I'm not here to...

You're not just guessing.

To dismiss them. Yeah. But if you look at the word depression, what does it actually mean to depress It's to push it down.

Hold it back.

It's to push it down, yeah. Now, what gets pushed on in depression? Your feelings. Our feelings. Why would a person push on their feelings? One of the needs of the child, one of the essential needs of the child, as I pointed in this book, I don't make this stuff up, I just report it, is to be able to experience all their emotions: anger, grief, fear, panic, love, playfulness, curiosity, lust for life, and just hunger for life. The child doesn't need to express all those emotions when they arise and have that understood, accepted, and validated by the adults. Now, if I'm in an environment where the parents can't do that, you've had guests on this program, I won't mention them by name, who teach that an angry child should be made to sit by themselves until they come back to normal.

No.

A two-year-old kid gets frustrated, they get angry. If you give that kid the message that if you're angry, you can't be with me, the child is in an impossible dilemma. Am I going to Will I sepate myself from the person on whom my life depends, or will I push down my anger? Well, give that message to the kid often enough. What are they going to do? Depress their feelings. Thirty years later, they're diagnosed with this disease called depression. Now, if you come to me with depression, I might decide that temporarily it might be a good idea for you to be an antidepressant. I've taken them. They helped me for a while, but it's not enough. Let's also look at what made you push down your feelings, what happened to you. Now, prescribing the antidepressant takes me three minutes. Talking with you about what actually happened to you that made you pushed on your feelings, that takes a long time. Doctors are not even trained to raise that question. Even if as a physician, I don't have the expertise to deal with that question. At least I could refer you to somebody who does. But no, most of the time, it's just the industrial model.

You come in, I got five minutes with you. Here's your prescription. Goodbye. Well, that doesn't deal with the underlying problem. It deals with the symptom, which may sometimes be helpful, sometimes it isn't. But whether it's helpful or not, it does not deal with the underlying dynamic It's just a dynamic.

Yeah. It's just where our society is, too. We've gone so far down this road, and it's just like, how do we... Back in the day, it seemed like if you were like, maybe this is crazy, but if you were just a small group around a campfire, you could see if somebody was hurting. Everything was right there. You couldn't hide anything.

Not only that, you know what you would do? You'd do ceremonies, healing rituals. You would drum, you would dance, you would chant, you would shake a stick. It'd be communal. A friend of mine who I quote in the book, he's a part Lakota physician and psychiatrist. His name is Luis Mel Madrona. He said in the Lakota tradition, when somebody gets sick, the community says, Thank you. Your illness represents an imbalance in our community. This You're like the canary in the mind. So your healing is our healing. So let's do this together. Now, that makes so much sense, both scientifically and emotionally. We don't do that. We isolate the individual, and then we separate the mind from the body. So we say it's just a brain problem. No, it isn't. It's a life problem. And that life is lived in an environment, in a multi-generational family, in a certain culture. Let's look at the whole thing.

That's all. Do you think we can start to head more in that direction? Or how do you think this changes? Because we are pretty far down the well here. Because you even said, Roar. Sometimes I feel like our whole planet just wants to fucking roar. I feel like everybody just wants to go in the yard and just scream at the sky. I don't know. It feels like there's just something trapped in us that is... Does that make any sense, man?

Oh, yeah. And it's had some cultural expression as well. What was that movie where somebody yells, I'm fed up and I can't take it anymore, and he starts yelling.

Oh, Falling Down? Michael Douglas?

Is that what it was? I don't know which movie it was, but it was somebody just starts yelling, I'm fed up and I can't take it anymore. And everybody starts yelling, I'm fed up, I can't take it anymore. I think there's a deep sense of frustration in this culture.

I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to be to take this anymore. Yeah, it's Network. How are we? Oh, yeah, Network. That's a great movie. If you've never seen it, it's a great movie.

I'm a mad as hell. No. That was decades ago. I think the level of frustration in our society has increased. Why are people frustrated? Because their needs aren't being met. That scream... Look, I travel all over the world. I just came back from a three-week, six-country tour of Europe. I talked to 12,000 people. That sense of frustration, that sense of longing that we talked about, it's so universal these days. It is.

Yeah. Yeah. Is it? Because it feels like this, or other people feeling this. That's what I wonder a lot. Are other people feeling this same way?

Well, some people are not because they escape. And this society is absolutely brilliant at creating escapes through mass media, Yeah. Mass sports, consumption, and so on. But I'll say something here, and this is particularly true of comedians I have found. Some people are just born more sensitive.

That's a great point, too, and I have to take that into account. We all do.

More sensitive means... Sensitive is from the Latin word sincere to feel. But some people are genetically born more sensitive. They feel more. That means when things people are wrong, they feel it more than the others. The same thing can happen externally to different people. But if one of them is more sensitive, they're going to feel it all the more. It's especially this highly sensitive people who are feeling that scream that you talk about.

Yeah, that's a great point. I just feel like we've just gone so far off the path of But if I can say something, your sense that we've gone off the path, what in you knows that? What part of me you mean?

What in you? Who in you knows that we've gone off the path? It's the part that hasn't gone off the path. It's the part that actually sees. So But I don't want to create too much doom and gloom here. No. There is this self here. There's this trueness here that's never been damaged, never been destroyed. There's nobody's damage goes that way. It's always in here. It's a question of, can we connect with it?

How do we get back to connecting with that thing? Because our society, our culture is not going to do it for us. It doesn't feel like we might have to start with it as individuals. Does that make sense?

We do begin as individuals, but you probably realized, I mean, just for example, in your AA group, there's a community there who have a lot of shared experiences and who are very vulnerably open in sharing their experiences. That's That's a source of support. When you share about yourself, that's a source of support to others. When they share about themselves, that's support for you. So that ultimately, no, we don't have to do it by ourselves. It begins as an individual process, but pretty soon you find that we're not alone.

Yeah. Do you think we can get out of this toxic culture, Albert? Do you feel like there's a way out of where we are? Or do you feel like that humanity is just...

I believe in human beings.

That's a great statement. I do, too.

I believe that there's an essential goodness there. A desire to connect, a desire to belong, a desire to celebrate life. I think that's We're endowed with those capacities. And as difficult as things may look, and especially these days with this terrible wars going on and the suffering that we've talked about, I still believe that there's so many examples. Everywhere I go, I meet such good people. People are trying to make a difference. People are trying to do their little bit or their big bit to reduce the suffering in the world, to speak the truth, to offer some love, I have compassion to the world. I really do believe in humans. Now, we have the potential to be monsters. We have the potential to be angels, but that good side never totally disappears. Some people that's covered over so much that they might never get in touch with it. Most people, I think, are quite capable of getting there once they decide that they want to.

Yeah, I I think, what scares me, I think, is that in order to be a human being, we have to have the present moment, right? We have to be able to still have the ability to reflect and recognize and think. Our society or our culture has created a lot where we're so many distractions so that if we never even take the time, if we can be distracted enough from being able to really think or feel, feel, really, probably starting with feeling, then we'll be trapped forever in a way. Does that make sense at all?

It's interesting how you say all these really insightful things, then you keep asking me if it makes sense or not. Sorry. Don't apologize.

I can't think and talk to it at the same time. I can't feel and speak at the same.

It's just-No, but I'm just telling you that. I'm not going to say it. I'm just noticing something.

I don't feel like you are. I appreciate it.

Thanks. Here's the thing. We're born as feeling creatures. We feel before we think. The feeling apparatus is present in us before we were even born. The thinking apparatus doesn't start developing until much later on.

That's true.

So that if there's a scaffolding of healthy feelings, then our thinking will be aligned with reality. But it's the feelings that... We're feelings. We're feeling creatures before we're thinking creatures. Got it. What you said makes absolute sense, even from the evolutionary and physiological point of view. Like, animals feel, but they don't necessarily think. In fact, they don't think.

Some of them don't.

But without thinking, Without feeling, they wouldn't survive. We think we can get by on thinking. We got it backwards. Yes.

That's what it feels like these days. It feels like everybody's just thinking. It's like even with autonomous inventions and technology, I'm like, at a certain point, I don't want any more technology if it's not helping us.

I know.

Stop. You're killing what it means to be me, or not me as a... But just us. It feels like we don't need to get fast. It's just like you're going to take jobs away. If a guy doesn't have a job, he doesn't have a purpose. Having a job isn't only your purpose, but it's what gives people some sense of purpose.

And a sense of meaning.

And a sense of meaning, right? And once you don't feel like you have any of that, then what are you? It's like we're almost just... I don't understand why our society wants that.

Well, first of all, I totally get where you're coming from because when we talk about AI, my mind glazes over. I don't care. I don't want one more piece of technology. I'm much more interested in what happens with human beings.

Man, thank you, dude. That's how I feel. I just care how people feel. I don't know.

When you talk about meaning, if you look at the diminishing lifespan of especially the white American men, it's that loss of meaning. When they hollowed out the industrial hard land of America and they outsourced all the cheap labor to other countries, well, you can see that from the profit motive, it makes sense. But from the point of view of human lives, you just deprive people of the sense of meaning. That sense of meaning, it's a psychologist in front of mind, calls this location is a major source of distress and a major source of self-harm and addiction.

Well, I even think like it used to be, and I say this many times, but Somebody worked in your area, and they worked at a factory, and they made a table, and they brought it. And you even had one of the tables at your house, and you were proud of your dad because he worked there and he made it. But now you have somebody in another country mailing something over here. They don't care about it, that they're making it. Their kids don't know even what they do, probably. Where is the vict? I don't understand what level of this we're going to get to that is healthy.

Well, I think now what we're talking about here is the good old profit motive because profits don't care about human values. Most companies That's what they're interested in is what will maximize profits. If they have to throw a thousand people out of a job in some town, they'll do it. I don't understand that, though. Well, work, I think, is very important to people. We're creatures who work. I just read a really interesting book, by the way. It's called The Continuum Concept, published 40 years ago. So this woman goes to the Venezuelan jungle, six weeks away from civilization, and she watches how these Stone Age people bring up their kids. That's the book, The Continuum Concept. How they bring up their kids, why they hold them everywhere, like we said, they don't punish them, they don't yell at them. These kids will grow up really happy and comfortable with themselves. But the point I'm making is this tribe, they don't have a word for work. They have a word for cutting wood. They have a word for planting. They have a word for fishing. They have a word for washing. But there's no word for work.

In other words, they just do what they do. But there's no alienation from it. Whatever they're into, they're just into it. That's what they're doing. But their only kid is not. Here we talk about work-life balance. But look at that phrase. What does that imply? That here's life and here's work. And the two are not the same.

It's almost like we enslaved ourselves.

What we have.

And then also our society, as you're saying, creates so much stress and uncomfortable because say if you took something that's supposed to be somewhere and you put it somewhere else, it's going to always feel stressed because it's not in its home, right? It's not in its natural spot.

Funny you should say that because I often say you can study a zebra and you could conclude that the zebra is an animal that mostly lies around all day, gets up a few times to eat or to defecate or something, and then lies down again, walks around a little bit. It would be true if you observed a zebra in a zoo in a cage. But if you observed the zebra out there in a Savannah or wherever wherever he/she lives, you see a totally different creature.

They're turnt out there.

And the human beings, in a sense, we put ourselves into a zoo. We're so far away from our natural evolutionary environment. It's not a question, again, of going back Stone Age, but it's a question of recognizing what we've lost. In a certain sense, we've put ourselves into a zoo and we're studying ourselves totally out of our elements, and then we're wondering, how come things are going so badly?

That was crazy. It's almost, and I hate to even laugh at it, but you're saying it's absurd.

It's absurd, yeah.

We're literally living in a theater of the absurd. In your book, you also We're going to talk about the history of humanity, that what we call civilization is less than 5% of our existence as a species, right? That for the entire span of the human genus, that it represents less than 1% of that time, like our civilization, right? We're such a small piece of how long humans have been alive. And we have learned that such groups a long time ago held values emphasizing hospitality, sharing, generosity, and reciprocal for the purpose not of personal enrichment, but of connection. These values were intelligent, time-tested guidelines for mutual survival. Yes, there was violence and bad behavior and all the rest. We have never been perfect. But we knew something about setting the collective context for our humanist to flourish fruitfully. That it was a group effort.

It was a group thing, and people never saw themselves as separate from the environment or from animals or from other human beings. In British Columbia, excuse me, where I live, the Indigenous people used to have a ceremony called a potlatch. The potlatch is they would invite all these people, neighbors and other tribes and so on, and they'd give things to each other. So it wasn't about getting, it was about giving. When the British colonians arrived, you know what they did? They outlawed the potlatch. Damn. Because they wanted to kill that spirit of communality that the Indigenous people thrived on. So they knew how to do it. So they forbade a lot of the practices that gave the Indigenous people meaning, including the giving. And until very recently, decades ago, it was outlawed. So people had to do stuff in secret. They outlawed the chanting. They had to chant in secret. Because they knew the healing power of the chants. And the chants really connected Indigenous people to their traditions. Now, the colonists did this everywhere. They did this in the United States. They did in Australia and New Zealand. They did it in Canada, of course, parts of Africa.

And so that a real effort was made to divorce people from their essential communal drives.

Yeah, that's what it feels like. That's what it feels like inside. We're not supposed to be doing this.

Yeah.

You know? One woman that you mentioned, Darcia Narviz.

Yeah, Darsha Narviz.Darsha.

Narviz.yeah. Said that we have become species atypical, a sobering idea when you think about it. No other species has ever It also had the ability to be untrue to itself, to forsake its own needs, never mind to convince itself that such is the way things ought to be.

Or to destroy its own environment. Yeah.

I still wonder if Mother Nature is mad about if some of the diseases we have now are because of what happened to the Indigenous cultures. If some of that just is like... Because Mother Nature remembers. It's like, are we still just suffering the sins of what's happened a long time We are.

The problem is we haven't learned from it yet. Actually, I work a lot with Indigenous people in Canada. They often invite me to talk about addiction and stress and trauma and so on.

Some of them, we did a show in Vancouver. Some of them came out to the show. Did they? And they gave me some gifts.Oh.

Fantastic.yeah.

It was really, really beautiful.Beautiful, isn't it?Yeah, it was awesome, man. Yeah, it was great. It was really nice of them.

But So I do a lot of that work, but I get so much from it because they have such deep wisdom. Even with all their trauma and all the dysfunction, all the addiction and mental illness amongst them, which is strictly a result of colonial trauma. But there's still such gentle wisdom. There's still such connection. I remember doing a ceremony with them, some Indigenous friends, two years ago, Art and Nature. They talk to every plant. They're so connected. Such deep wisdom. I actually believe that when this society starts getting his head screwed on right, we'll be very humbly willing to learn from the Indigenous people. Yes, civilization has brought many amazing things. Not to forget that, but what if we could meld our technological know-how and scientific brilliance with indigenous wisdom. What a world we could actually create.

And maybe that is where we're headed, right? I think that has to be the hope. Well, I believe that's certainly a possibility. Yeah. I think that has to be the hope that we take away. Yeah, because if I were ever a leader, I think we would get back to some of the things that were important. One of my favorite times when I was a kid, the power would go out sometimes. Yeah. Mom would put a couple of candles out, and so we'd all have to be right there. Together. Yeah. And it was just like, I don't know. All that mattered was just like, you could joke, but it was like, I don't know. We just all needed each other. You needed to know where everybody were. Is everybody here? I don't know. There was something special about that.

But you can see it even now. When there's disasters, people really come together. They tend to come together to support each other. They go out of their way to give and to support.

For sure. You've seen it with the flooding and stuff in the Southeast right now, many places all over the world. I think there's so much to learn from our native from the Indigenous people of the land, just as we learn from animals in all parts of nature.

Well, Darsha Narv, who is the scientist, the psychologist that you mentioned, she's written a book called The Evolved Nest, and she's talking about our commonality with other animals and how they rear their young and what we could learn from them. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's an amazing little book. I wrote the foreword for it. Darsha has done some amazing work on the actual needs of human beings.

Really? She's a pretty fascinating woman.

She's very interesting. If you ever want to talk to her, I'm happy to connect you.

That would be really cool. You Canadians are dang interesting, man.

Well, Darshra is American.Oh.

She is?Yeah.

All right, we'll take it. No, she's a retired professor at the University de Notre Dame.Wow.And she's still very active. This book is called The Evolved Nest. It's just a slim little volume. But you should learn about how penguins bring up their kids or wolves. When a mother dies, then wolves who haven't even been pregnant start lactating to feed the young ones. And how, when the baby elephant is born, you know what happens? All the other mother Elephants put their trunks on it. All the other mother, they stand around and they touch the baby. They know the need for Which I mean, there's incredible wisdom in animals as well. And Darsha and her writing partner, gray Bradshaw, they really show us the lessons we could actually derive just from watching our animals bring up their young.

We still have a lot to learn. Is that the best message to take away from your book, do you think?

We still have a lot to learn, and we need to be humble. We need to realize that for all our achievements and our intellectual brilliance, We've become disconnected from our hearts, from our gut feelings, and that we need to really be curious about what our hearts and our guts are telling us, not just our intellect.

Amen. Yeah. We need an An emotional revolution.

That's a good way to put it.

Before you go, and thank you so much for your time.

Pleasure.

There's a part, Raphie. There's a guy in the book, Raphie. Or Raffie.

Raffie. No, Raffie is a children's singer.

A children's singer. Oh, yeah, that guy? That's him. I'd like to be him.

I'm in the sea. Is that him? No, that's Ringo Star. You're singing Octopus's Garden. Yeah.

Oh, Jesus.

But Raffy used to sing Baby Baluga. Oh, yeah.

Apples and Bano No. No. Is that song?

Yeah, and Bananaphone.

But he says, We discover who we are from the inside. You wrote that on your book.

Raffy actually played in the White House at the Clinton inauguration. Oh, sweet. And he's like the children's troubadour of the world.

Yes. When I was a child, we listened. Yes, they had all of it.

Raffy is a friend of mine. Oh, excellent. At some At some point, some years ago, he wakes up in the middle of the night, and the world child honoring comes into his head. And he says, What would the world look like if we honor children and the needs of children? So he started this child honor institute. Now, the thing about his singing for children is it's not condescending. He really plays with kids and really gets them. And his heart is really so childlike. So he says, whatever the quote was, that we-We discover who we are from the inside. We discover who we are from the inside. And he's actually talking about how human beings develop, which is through our feelings first. And those feelings begin in the uterus. So already when a mother is stressed, the child feels that in the uterus, and that stresses the child, he feels that in the uterus, and that stresses the child. That interferes with the child's brain development. So that actually we develop our sense from our feelings first. And as I said earlier, then the intellect comes in. But if the emotional circuits are out of balance because of early stress, then it's hard for us to even think straight.

Our society we have is when so many mothers have to work. It's like we've just We're a little misconstrued.

Well, the United States, 25% of women have to go back to work within two weeks of giving birth. What nature would prefer, scientifically and physiologically, is for the baby with the mother for at least nine months, but actually for years. Or if not the mother, but at least with the mother for at least nine months. But ideally, Well, beyond then, but with other nurturing adults. It's not just caregivers who give you food.

It's the mother, the grandmother, the aunt, the neighbor, the sense of community, your whole genes being right there. Exactly. How did we get off on such a different tangent then? If we were supposed to be in these tribes, these groups, it's just evolution, and there's nothing we can do about it?

Well, that's That's civilization.Right. Civilization.

Which has obviously brought all kinds of benefits, but also look at all that we've lost. So again, it's for me, can we value our achievements and our knowledge and try to remember what we've lost, and try and reconnect with those parts of ourselves that we've got divorced from?

Yeah. Yeah. And your children, just look into them, pour into them what you want out of them. Pour into them as much as you can. Kids don't know how to feel sometimes. You have to also talk them about their feelings. No, you don't.

They know exactly how to feel. They don't have the words for... They know how to feel. It's our job to give them words for their feelings.

Right. It's our job to give them words for their feelings. Right. So, yeah, If you're not doing that, it's not a judgment. And I don't have any children, but that's what I could have used when I was young. It was like, How do you feel? Let me help you with this.

Or not even how you feel. You're really angry with Daddy right now because you wanted a cookie before dinner, and Daddy said, No cookie. So now you're really angry, aren't you? Yeah. So it's not even... We don't have to tell them how to feel. They're feeling creatures. We have to accept their feelings. Okay. That doesn't mean we give them the cookie. Yeah. But it means that we do understand why.

Hey, I understand you want that cookie.

Yeah, right now, you're really mad at Daddy. Okay, I get it. I get it. Yeah, that's all. Yeah. That doesn't mean you're allowed to hate your brother, but I get that you're angry. We're not about permissive parenting. We're talking about authoritative parenting, not authoritarian. Authoritative, where the child is understood and held and guided, and we give them words for their feelings, but we don't ask them to suppress themselves. We may not accept certain behaviors or put limits, but we know how to do that. If the child trusts you and is looking to you. Like natives, the Indigenous people, like we said earlier, never hit their kids because the kids trusted the adults for guidance. Which all comes from connection.

A hundred %. Now we're learning so many things. We learn them through a YouTube video or through... We learn... Now, most people learn about sex through pornography. It's just like... We need each other to We need each other, and we're creating more and more that we don't.

That's right. And we're creating more and more that if you have needs, there's something wrong with you. If you have your emotional needs, your weakling.

One day, our feelings will be in a museum. You'll go visit them there. Hey, remember this? They used to have that. Dr. Monte, thank you just for putting all this together. It's really fascinating. You have so many other therapists and scientists and philosophers and doctors and everything that you've quoted in here to really put together a beautiful a piece of work here.Thank you.It's really fascinating. And it's not all like Debbie Downer stuff either. I don't mean to be, and I don't think we were that much in this conversation. It's just looking at things and saying, Hey, let's take a look at where we are, possibly. How did we get here?

That's my intention, and my intention is to promote healing, actually. It's not just to spread doom and gloom. Actually, the healing part of the book is the longest part of the book.I'm not there yet.Yeah. But I hope you get there someday.

I think I will. Yeah. I've been reading it at a good clip. I'm enjoying it.

Well, I'm glad to hear that. Thank you. It was... If I can boast, can I boast?

Sure. I would love for you, too.

It was 19 weeks on the New York Times best seller's list.Let's go.For a year and a half, it was a Canadian best seller. It's been published in 41 languages now, internationally, and it's been a best seller in a whole lot of countries. So I think there's value in this book.

Well, I think also that it's good to know that enough people are starting to recognize in some of this same thought. Yeah, absolutely. Because that in itself Itself, those numbers itself, and that prolificness is a source of hope, I think.

I think what's happening, actually, is that a society, in some ways, goes more into crisis. Also, more and more people are waking up, and they're starting to ask questions. And I see that as a good thing.

Yeah, I do, too. Thank you for letting me ask you questions today. Thank you just for your time. So many of my friends love you and look up to you. My own therapist was like, He's asking, I'm like, You're my therapist. But he was excited that I was getting this in with you. Oh, great. Yeah. Thank you so much for your commitment to curiosity.

And thanks for your time.

Now, I'm just floating on the breeze, and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be cornerstone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found I can feel it bones.

But it's going to take.