Transcript of Curt Mills: Trump Can Save America or Wage Another War, but He Can’t Do Both. Here’s Why.

It's amazing to me that over 20 years after the Iraq War, its architects and supporters are still not fully in control of America's foreign policy, but certainly influential in it. It's shocking to me that two months after Trump's landslide victory, a race in which he ran against the neocons, the neocons are still brazen enough to try and influence and sabotage his nominations. Welcome to the Tucker Carlson Show. We bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else. They're not censored, of course, because we're not gatekeepers. We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to know and do it honestly. Check out all of our content at tuckercarlson. Com. Here's the episode. We are days, but less than a week before Chelsea Gabbard's hearings. Where are are we in the below the radar war between permanent Washington's national security establishment, the Neocons, and the incoming Trump administration?

I think it's unclear. As of this recording 10 minutes ago, Mr. Hegsaf, the Defense Secretary was just confirmed on a 50/50 vote. Hegset is an interesting character, I believe a former colleague of yours. Yes. He appears to have done a bit of a conversion on his foreign policy beliefs, and the best evidence of is the people that he's picked so far. So his cadres, the people that will serve as- Okay, I ask you to pause with there.

This is relevant to people who know Pete Hegset from clips on acts of him from eight years ago saying things that would lead you to believe he's a pretty stout neocon.

Yeah.

But... Okay, so that's what you're referring to in- Yeah, I think the available evidence is that he is...

Circa 10 years ago was a pretty conventional Republican, and he has changed his life in more ways than one. So he is a question mark. But the early evidence is the people that he has chosen to surround himself are stark departures from the man from 10 years ago. That's a big deal. It is a big deal. Especially in a place like the Pentagon, which is hard to control.

Yes. And wants no change under any circumstances, except an annual increase in number of four-star generals.

It's the largest bureaucracy on Earth.

It is. It exists to serve itself. It's got a pretty abysmal record of winning wars, a pretty great record of spending money. It desperately needs reform. You're saying that based on the personnel choices you think he's making, he's now the defense secretary, by the way, as a right now, that he is like, sincerely on board with Trump's foreign policy.

Yeah. I mean, he did not need to make these pics. I don't think he needed to make these pics to get confirmed. I don't think he needed to win any senators. He is courting, I think, minor conflict, diversity now, which is why we're having this meeting. He did not need to do this. It was a move of conviction and belief and principle in his early days in office, before even.

So give us an example. Just give us an example of what you're talking about.

Sure. There's going to be this Michael Domeno figure who will have the Middle East portfolio. He has been advised throughout the process by another figure named Daniel Coldwell. These are both people in their 40s or 30s, basically millennials, who are veterans of the global war on terror. They're very much in the- So they fought in that? Yeah, Dan did, and Michael was a CIA agent. These are the guys that were hunting down IRGC, Iranian Revolutionary Guard, core people, and the forever wars that Trump and Vance ran on reforming and ending, et cetera, et cetera. They're very much in the Vance mold of of, We went there, not really sure what the point was, and we want to roll back from that somewhat. I think you might have heard this message from Mr. Trump at least once or twice in the last 10 years.

I don't know, Demina. I know Caldwell, who I think of as a man of genuine integrity, high intelligence, and principle committed to his country. I think he's proven that. I honestly think he's a wonderful person. But he's being attacked by people who never served with a long, unbroken track record of destroying America as somehow anti-American?

Yeah.

How does this work?

I think the tactics are pretty clear. No one reads anything. Everybody is- Fair. Everybody is cynical, confused.

Says the magazine editor. Nobody reads anything. Yeah, okay.

Are you right? Get a headline out there. Call someone a naughty word, say they're anti a country or they are radical. If anyone sued this publication, it will take years and years and years and hope that some club member at Mar-a-Lago hands this to President Trump-Exactly. And tries to trick him and thinks that Mr. Trump is a stupid man. This is the approach, and this is what they are trying to do. That's exactly. It is a cyclone I mean, the word has been abused by the Democrats.

They've done this to me. Yes.

But this is actual disinformation. Yes. I hate to use the word, but like...

What are the publications? Who are the people involved in this campaign of lies?

Okay. I mean, I'm not familiar, and I don't know any of the people over there personally, but the big story that's going around on both Domeno and I believe Caldwell is from Jewish Insider. And again, no one really wants to be attacked something called Jewish Insider. It doesn't sound very fun. They are running headlines against people, and they are attacking them. What they do is they don't say anything that is per se inaccurate, but they totally strip the context for everything.

Let's go one by one. Do you know Domeno?

Just by correspondence.

Okay. What's your... Is this a radical figure, anti a Pan-American figure? No.

This is somebody who wants to pull back, I would say, moderately from the Middle East, which I think at this point is basically bipartisan outside of the radicals within Washington, DC, and the Beltway.

Okay. I think this is a fair assessment. The people who want to continue what we're doing at unsustainable cost, being a bankrupt country, by the way, sending aid to countries that are not bankrupt, those are the radicals, I think it's fair to say. What are they saying about Domeno in this hit piece?

They are trying to make the reader jump to the conclusion that he is anti-Israeli, that he is pro-Iranian.

He's pro-Iranian.

He is somehow pro-radical Islam. Islam, he's pro all the scary people in the Middle East.

Radical Islam.

Sure. It doesn't really matter. I don't know the guy.

Sounds Catholic to me. Do you know a lot of Shiais called Domeno, or is that a common name for Persians?

Not to information. Okay. Again, I think it bears repeating that this person was responsible for the tracking of Revolutionary Guard Corps members in Iran, potentially sent some of them to their death. The whole thing has an opera buffet flavor to it that he's being attacked as- What you're saying is these are people who will say anything.

It doesn't matter. They're from the very white school of journalism. Just like you have an objective, something you want to achieve, and whatever it takes to get there is fine. You will say it. It It doesn't matter. You'll call anybody anything if it serves your purpose.

They are very, very willing to destroy this person with absolutely no compunction.

Is there any evidence that he's, quote, anti-Israel? None. Right.

And in fact, there's evidence to the contrary, which he praises the country.

Yeah.

Okay. He is critical of aspects of the war.

It's okay to be critical of other people's wars or your own wars. It's okay to offer analysis of war.

Or to even state that it's not, in fact, our war, as the President of the United States just did on his inauguration day, emphasizing from behind the resolute desk that it's their war, not our war.

I read something from a guy called David Wormser, who was one of the architects of the Iraq, were not from this country, not really concerned with this country at all. Also, I think it's fair to say someone who should hang his head in shame given a lifetime of destruction that he's helped bring to our country, but describe these policies as anti-American. I have to say it takes a lot of balls for someone who has no interest in the United States to accuse someone whose whole orientation is helping the United States of being anti-American. But I've noticed this a lot. If you raise the question, what are we getting out of this? The endless war cycle, we're getting bankruptcy, obviously, but is this good for us? They'll accuse you, the Constantine his and also not an American, that wing will accuse you of being somehow woke and you're like left wing for asking these questions. Have you noticed this?

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that you raise some of these figures. We go in this all night. I'd like to. Yeah, they're hoping- There's no more repulsive group in American life than the people who continue to push death and bankruptcy on the United States.

I think that's fair.

Can't recover from death.

No, you can't.

So I mean, I think that they're hoping that Americans don't do the reading. They're hoping that Americans read X posts. They're hoping that Americans watch random cable news hosts, that they're zoned out and let's say they have a positive view of certain aspects of America's role in the Middle East, and they start tar and feathering people on the Internet, and that there's no pushback on it.

At the same time- I guess the only reason I have noticed this is because it's so over the top rather than... Look, I think a lot of these positions are legitimate. I disagree with them. A ton of these people are smart people. I know almost all of them. They could make a straightforward case for their position. Here's why we should affect regime change in Iran, or here's why we should kill Putin. I mean, maybe there's a case to be made for that. But they never make the case. They attack anyone who stands in their way in the most brutal and dishonest ways. They have no limits at all in their behavior at all. I just find that repugnant and like, corrosive. Even if I agreed with them, I'd be against that. What is that?

This guerrilla warfare, the win at any costs.

I didn't at any cost. I know I'm jumping in, but I'm exercised. I just watched what's happening to a man called Steve Whitkoff. Do you know Steve Whitkoff? Yes. Do you know who that is? Okay. He's a friend of Trump's. He's a real estate guy from New York. I happen to know him just for other reasons.

How well do you know him?

Pretty well. Just personally, I don't know a ton about his views. I don't sense that we probably don't agree on foreign policy in some ways. But he was tasked by Trump, as you know, to go over and affect some ceasefire between Israel and Mas, and he did. I doubt he's anti-Israel. In fact, I know he's not, whatever that means. He is being attacked as somehow an agent of the Islamic Republic of Qatar and anti-Israel, Steve Wykoff. I happen to really like Steve Wykoff. I think I just like him. He's just a great guy, actually, and he's really tough and he's just a good guy. If you were to dinner with him, you'd like him, trust me. But I'm just blown away by the dishonesty. Rather than say, Hey, Steve Wykoff, I disagree with you or whatever. It's he's working for Qatar. What? He's from Long Island. What are you talking about?

This is the higher profile. They're hoping, again, that Trump has learned nothing. They insult the President's intelligence.

But these people are disgusting. They're liars. If there's one thing the country said too much of us lying, let's just stop lying. Let's just be honest about things. I agree. Yes.

I agree. We've been corroded by lies.

Completely. The country is about to collapse because of lies. The people pushing endless war are one of the main vectors for that lying because there's just no reference point in reality at all. If Steve Wykoff is an agent of the Islamic Republic, then I just give up. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. No.

Okay, sorry. Luxury. No, no, no. I mean, the Wykow thing in some ways is what set the whole thing up. Wykow?

He's the most reasonable, moderate person in the world. No, he's not anti-Israel. He's just tough.

I think the Wykow thing surprised both sides, though, I would note. Why? Obviously, you knew him within recent years. Yeah. I think in general, the open source intelligence, to use a lame term, but I would say, is that the Hawks, people who want to say go all the way on Iran, did not expect Wykow to be so pragmatic. Then, additionally, the realist and restraint camp also did not expect it. All the reporting from, say, Israeli media, say, Haaretz or Sides of Israel, that Wykow went in there and with both the incoming Trump administration and the remnants of the Biden administration, force Prime Minister Netanyahu into some deal, a deal that he had turned down six months ago in May of 2024, basically identical deal. That threw most everybody in the loop for a loop. And That has set off, as far as I can infer, a climate of hysteria within Israel itself, at least among the... I'm not sure, sir, Netanyahu himself, but at least within the factions of his cabinet that are hard line as hell.

Okay, so they disagree. They've had to give a little. Everyone does an negotiation.

It's not a disagreement. I mean, this will not stop unless there's pushback.

All I'm saying is when you reach an agreement, everyone gets pinched. That's just the nature of it. Right. No one likes it, but tough. That's what it is. My read on Wykow is that he's just not super ideological. I think he's pro-Israel. Wouldn't even question that. But I don't think he's an ideologue. He's a self-made real estate guy who started with a single apartment building in Washington Heights. He's a tough human being. I think you need someone who's practical and tough to affect a negotiation. You don't want someone who's captive of all kinds of theories. Trump says, Hey, Wykow, get a peace deal, or get a ceasefire, an intermediate peace deal, a first step toward one. Wykow is like, Okay. And he just shows up and he's like, Hey, you, You. Yeah.

Is that what you want? I think a lot of Israel is surprised by this. This was lost in the absolute cacophony of 2024. Really? But yes, if you read, I read the Israeli Express daily, and there were members of Netanyahu's coalition. So these are members of the Prime Minister Netanyahu, people who are not in his party, who are more hard-lined than him. And they were saying, Trump's really talking about this endless war stuff. This might be a problem. And this was back in October, in September, in August. And no one was paying attention because it was Brett Summer and other things were going on. But this was coming. And the fact that they got it done, not even before, not even during the transition itself, also surprised people.

I'm sensing inflated expectations here. This is a foreign country. Three, obviously an ally, a close ally, the car closest ally, I think it's fair to say, but a separate country. I think realistic expectations would be we get some of what we want, we don't get everything we want because we're not in charge of the United States.

But there's a tension here. First, the relationship between the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Israel is extremely unclear. Yes. I don't think maybe only the two of them know. They have disagreed since at least 2020 over the election, but they probably disagreed beforehand over strikes in Iran. The last time you and I spoke publicly was over the Salamani strike in January of 2020. And since then, reporting in the last five years has come out that the two of them disagreed over that. Trump felt that the Israelis didn't do their part, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So for For years, for at least half a decade, the oil has been poisoned between Trump and Netanyahu. It doesn't mean the relationship is done, but there's been an atmosphere of mistrust.

Well, he's had that. I've watched closely and interviewed him more than once. Netanyahu? Yeah, while moving on 30 years because he's been in and out of office, and he's had complicated relations with every president.

Yeah. I think the key thing to understand for your listeners, anyone who's I'm not turning this off because we're getting into the depths of Israeli politics here. But Netanyahu's situation is unstable.

Yes.

A super majority of Israelis want him out. They want him to resign. He does not want to resign because if he resigns, he may go to prison. Also, he's been a power achiever for 30 years. I've noticed that people who do that often don't like to quit.

I think that's fair. Yeah.

Okay. He doesn't want to quit for both of his freedom and the way of his life. Yeah. Yes, okay.

Pretty recognizable syndrome, I would say. Yes. Not confined to Bibi. It's international. Yes, it is international.

Okay. How does he not quit? It's pretty clear that spectacular circumstances justify his presence. It's very similar, actually. I mean, there's been comparisons between him and Churchill. It's actually fair. Only in wartime can someone like Netanyahu at this at some point, get a position. I get it. The war has to go on. So what war? So they have basically a deal with Hezbollah. I think it's not... I think that is by far the least likely that they're going to go back in there. There are basically two options. One, once all the hostages are exchanged, then they go back into Gaza. Or, I guess 1B, is to do the West Bank, which is already going on right now.

Or two-What do you mean do the West Bank?

Invade to an exit.

What about the people who live there? What happens to them?

That is Israel's problem.

What do you do while you're in the West Bank? What are you doing there? What is the point of the operation? Do you know?

To annex the territory and build developments. I mean, this is The unstated thing is that they'll either export these people or eliminate them. It's pretty terrifying stuff. It's not light stuff, but this is not a light interview. The problem is the US is the military underwriter of this. The Israelis probably can't do this without us selling them weapons. While Americans are tuned out and not thinking about this thing, our reputation overseas is one of arms dealers. And over time, that affects your children, being able to travel abroad, that affects America's reputation overseas. It's dicey stuff.

Well, it caused 9/11, among other things, right? So, yeah, it has effects for sure. Yeah.

Option two is Iran, which is, I'll just quote them. I'll quote the hardline perspective itself. It's the head of the snake in the conception of the Israeli hardline and also the neoconservative right in the United States. For sure. And so Israel also can't do Iran, in my view, and also in general assessments, without the help of the United States. It's usually joint US Israeli airstrikes or even a solo invasion of Iran by the United States is the ultimate fantasy.

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Com. Don Jr here, guys. Are you receiving letters from the IRS claiming you owe back taxes as When the penalties and interest fees pile up, the IRS gives you no clear path to resolution. Don't speak to them on your own. They are not your friends. To reach a team of licensed tax professionals that can help you reduce, settle, and resolve your tax matters, go to tnusa. Com. Tnusat. Com, and check them out. Solve your tax problems today. Call 1-800-780-8888 or visit tnusa. Com. That's 1-800-780-8888. Just to one quick digression about Steve Wykow. Sure. I think it's really significant that he's not a professional foreign policy figure. He hasn't spent a career at the State Department or doing bilaterals for his career. Where he's just a smart, tough, competent person who is charged with a task by the President, and he got it done. Maybe we need more of that. There are certain parts I mean, Stakeraft that probably it's helpful to have experience in Stakeraft, but some of it's just pretty straightforward. They get a ceasefire. Okay.

Yeah. No, I think there has- Could anyone from the State Department have done what Steve Wykoff did, do you think? No, especially without the Without the President's matter. Of course not.

But even if Trump had called someone in and been like, Okay, Mr. Career Diplomat, can you affect a ceasefire? He'd be like, Well, it's very complicated. Wykoff is just like, Hey, ceasefire, stop.

No, It's the same. I mean, international relations has been made into... They have to make it into a pseudoscience.

Exactly. Smart. Just like everything else. Yeah, just like everything else. Just like journalism or... Yeah. Even Even education. You can't teach third grade without a master's degree. Are you kidding?

Yeah. So it's just needlessly complex.

When the first requirement is, do you like third graders? It's nothing to do with your master's degree. The whole thing is, it's absurd.

Yeah. Then it's the same thing all of academia, which is people's thesis are increasingly more baroque and nobody actually knows large things like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or at least know it in a way that is applicable in power in real life. I mean, maybe things are changing now, but also a lot of the foreign policy establishment, it's different now in the second term, but wouldn't work with the first Trump term, wouldn't work with their team. I think that was the discredit of the country. I think that just did not serve the country.

Of course, it didn't serve the country. Well, we know the country hasn't been served because look at the country. I think we can say of all players, they didn't serve the country. That include the media. There have been times when I didn't serve the country, like when I advocated for the Iraq war. We're all culpable to some extent, but it's just remarkable to me that people are continuing it. Now, instead of telling us that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction or that Osam bin Laden attacked us for our freedoms or whatever the lie of the day was, The new idea is that Iran is the head of the snake. How many Americans have been killed by Iranian proxies in the United States over the last 20 years, do you think?

How many Americans in the United States?

Yeah, have been killed by Iran-sponsored terrorism.

Zero.

Red Run, zero. How many have died of fentanyl IDs, drugs whose precursors come from China.

Millions.

Well, more than a million. More than a million. Yeah. Okay.

I think, look, to play-to-play- What are you talking about? The Iranians back proxies that killed US troops in the Iraq war. Yeah, of course. But we shouldn't have done the Iraq war.

Well, Iran took over Iraq because we took out Saddam Hussein in a majority Shiaid country. I happened to be there for that. Even I, as a 33-year-old moron, was like, wait a second. It's just a basic interest in demographics. Isn't this going to go to Iran now? Anyway, yes. But I just find it amazing that there's been no public conversation about whether or not the United States should go to war with Iran. There's been no case laid out. At least in 2002, they had the decency to lie to us in a pretty complicated, sophisticated way about weapons mass destruction. Now it's just like, shut up. You're anti-American if you ask questions. It feels like we're moving toward a conflict with Iran.

Is that a fair-I think we have been moving towards one. I think basically the biggest risk of a democratic administration is a war with Russia, and the biggest risk of a Republican administration is a war with Iran. So my rule is always that's why it's more ethical to be a Republican, because at least the Iranians don't have nukes yet. So That's actually pretty close to my first principle, just outright.

We have simplified it, haven't you, Kurt?

Yes, but the Iran war would be still the worst and not something that we should pursue. And look, foreign policy experts at this point will chime in on this conversation being like, Oh, well, that's just so unrealistic. That's not actually what we want. This is actually just a ridiculous externality. But I think it is worth noting that we have done wars, toppling governments throughout the region over the last 25 years. So number one, it's happened very recently. Number two, it is the explicit goal of the hardliners, and the hardliners keep moving the overage window in their direction. And so while this is perhaps not 100% certain, but hardly, there is a hard drive towards doing this and picking off Pentagon deputies and allowing leaders like Trump and Vance to be surrounded by haws and no dissenting voices whatsoever is absolutely essential towards any road to war.

I have to say the amount of calculated deception on the right, so all of a sudden, Barry Weiss, who's a leftist, becomes a conservative because she's against traneism or something. Every normal person is against that. But it's pretty obvious that the whole purpose of her organization in the Free Press, and her career in journalism, is to soften up the right for war with Iran and to attack anybody. She got this whole constellation of people, Neil Ferguson and all these people who had weight to the project, but who really are all paid to flack for war with Iran and attack anyone who's not with the program. I felt the sting of this, so I didn't really understand how this worked. But then someone with thoroughly moderate foreign I don't only want war with anybody. I'm not against anybody. All of a sudden you're like, wow, people are calling you anti-American.

Well, there's precedent for this. I don't know any of the people you just described personally.

But I'm just saying there was... You said I said the problem with voting Republican is you're more likely to wind up with a war with Iran. I agree with you. I'd much rather have a war with Iran than a war with Russia, but I don't want either one. It's just interesting how the groundwork, I just know because I've been in conservative media my whole life, All of a sudden, all these new people and you're like, Oh, Barry Weiss, are you really conservative? Well, not at all. Then what are you doing here? Oh, you're trying to convince me that I'm not allowed to oppose a war with Iran or I'm going to be written out of the conservative movement or something.

Okay, so A lot of people are comparing Trump to Reagan these days, and I think it is an inaccurate comparison, but there obviously are comparisons that are very different human beings, is basically my position. If you accept that Trump is the biggest cheese since Reagan on the Republican side, what happened in the Reagan years? The Neoconservatives, that is people who came from the left and moved to the right, were very, very savvy, effective, and reasonable at domestic policy. They were very, very good on the crime issues of the day. And their periodicals gained currency because, Hey, actually, we should clean up the streets of New York, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I knew a a lot of them, and some of them were really smart, decent people, too. By the way, some of their foreign policymakers were not crazy at all. They recognized the Soviet Union was evil. The first generation of neocons, Mjdekter. I love Mjdekter. I don't know. You know what I mean? I don't think that they were all nuts at all.

But by the '90s and 2000s, if you believed in some crime enforcement in New York, you also had to believe towards the march towards regime change in Iraq. Again, they don't want to sound like- I'm skipping that part of the buffet line.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I will take this safe city in the thriving economy. I'm going to leave out the Forever War. Is that okay?

But I think it is the essential pitch of this new generation of neoconservatism, which, of course, does not call itself that, but it is moderation on the social issues. Let's turn down the volume. At the same time, over here in the column space over here, a little news item about what's going on in the Red Sea and why the US needs to care. It's a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip Iran, and we have to underwrite a war in Israel until every single member of Hamas is dead. It's just not clear that the US national interest is there, to put it lightly.

Yeah. I guess what I object to is, I'm never offended by people with different ideas. I'm never offended by someone who makes a sincere case, affirmative case or something that I disagree with, okay. By the way, maybe he's right, and I'm wrong. I've certainly been wrong a lot. The part where I get enraged is the bad faith.

Yeah.

You ask questions like, Well, is this in our interest? Well, you hate so and so. I don't hate anybody, and I certainly don't hate that country. I like it a lot, actually. But there's no room for it. They're preventing discussion. A lot of these people have the gall to describe themselves as warriors for free speech, when, of course, free speech is the last thing they want, and they've gone out of their way to prevent any open conversation about the most important topics in our collective life. I'm just bothered by the lying. There's too much lying, don't you think? Absolutely. I would say, and by the way, I'll even go further and say, having worked for Bill Kristol for five and a half years- Bill Kristol, the editor of the Weekly Standard, that was the absolute launching point magazine of the Iraq War. For sure. I was there. I started the very first day of the Weekly Standard, August first, 1995, 30 years ago. I thought Bill Kristol, I still would say, was a great boss. Interesting, fun to talk to, funny as hell. Obviously, I think he's taken a really dark turn, and his life has been a disaster, and I feel bad for him.

But one thing I'll say about Bill Kristol circa 2000 is that he would make an actual case for his views. He would say, We have to go in and take out Saddam for the following eight reasons. And you would write- You would say this is '95, '96, '97. I was there for all of that. I wasn't paying super close attention because I was dumb, and I was focused on other things. I was like, Oh, yeah, it's a foreign policy, hobby horse. He's into that stuff. I'm not that into it. I didn't understand the stakes. I didn't really understand anything, actually, when I was a kid. But I always admired and still admire his willingness and that generation's willingness to make their case, to write some paper. Here's what we're for. That is gone. And now it's just like, can we censor the people? Can we call them names to the point where they get kicked off social media? So there's no counterargument.

Well, even Crystal himself has stopped writing.

Well, he could never write. Not a I will say. But an affable, confusing person in meetings.

I mean, probably the most successful political organizer of the last 30 years.

Yeah, and tireless. There are good things to be said about Bill Crystal, obviously. I'm It's called me a Nazi like 100 times, but that's the point. I'm not a Nazi. I'm not for the Nazis. I just don't... I've got different views. That's the term that I'm really bothered by is just the pure ad hominem It's an attempt at censorship. And Barry Weiss engages in that like, relentlessly behind the scenes using all kinds of proxies, some of whom I know. And I just want to say it out loud. I just want to say, this It's deception here. Okay, so I hope people know that.

I think it makes it impossible for the new President to do what he's promised to do if he doesn't solve this conundrum. Tell me what you mean. If the President wants to send troops to the US border, and the President wants to rebuild the American economy, and the President wants to focus on China, and the President wants the moral credibility to end the Russia-Ukraine war at some point. Yes. Expanding the war in the Middle East, even with prolonged arm sales, corrodes his political capital.

Who's going to pay for that?

The United States.

No, but I We literally are operating in the red to the tune of trillions of dollars. In what world can we afford that?

Well, it's a very complex topic.

We don't have any functioning community hospitals left.

We have the reserve currency, and we can keep writing debt until it causes an inflation crisis, which a lot of people thought would happen earlier and did not. And even our inflation crisis in the 2020s was mild by global standards. So accordingly, we've got plenty of room for the big enchilada, which is an Iran war.

Yeah. So it just feels like a big deal. It's a big deal. To me, and it feels like it's worth... I mean, certainly, if you comment on this, you do ask yourself, Is it really worth it? Do I want to get into this? By the way, a lot of people I really like and I'm friends with, violently disagree. So you run the risk, which I really don't want, of rupturing friendships over it. That's the last thing I want ever. And And you think, maybe I just be quiet. But it does seem like that's a huge step. And at the very least, the public ought to understand that there are highly motivated people pushing us toward that. Do you think that we will participate in a military action against Iran?

Well, the big question is right now, so there's a new Iranian President. So the previous Iranian President died along with his foreign minister in a helicopter accident over the summer.

A little mysterious. Are you going use air quotes around an accident?

I mean, a lot of things happened last year. It's very possible. I mean, I don't think- Everyone got killed last year. So many accidents. The Iranians' equipment, helicopter equipment, to my understanding, is old, and it is a rough part of the world, and it's possible that it... It's likely that it just went down. Again, I would say- I would not fly in a helicopter with Iranian officials.

I'm just telling you that.

Yeah. Again, if you think it was the Israelis, the Israelis- No. Pretty much took credit or didn't deny all the other assassinations that occurred last year. I don't. Leading of Hamas leadership, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Just for the record, I try to suspend judgment because I know a lot about what countries do. I do think, this is one thing I'll say in support of Israel, I do think that it is... It isn't fair to just single out Israel and say they're doing naughty stuff. Lots of people are doing naughty stuff. That's just a fact. The only point where I would feel like I want to say something is if the United States gets sucked into it. Sure. Now, we're talking about our interest, my country, where my family's from, and I think it's fair to speak up then. Yeah.

I guess maybe the 2025 zoom out, you would say there was an election in Iran right afterwards. Yes. A lot of people disagree with our perspective We'll disagree with this term, but the more moderate candidate, people think there are no moderates within the regime, but the less hard core candidate won. This is the first time this has happened since Trump left the Iran deal. And this person, it is not clear how much power he has within the system. The Supreme Leader is old. It's not clear how old. And there will be a succession crisis to succeed the Supreme Leader should die. So it is this weird situation where every time Iran is in a crisis, and they're in crisis right now. They're in an electricity crisis by all reporting. Again, don't know if we can trust all the reporting, but they can't keep the lights on in Tehran fully. And what will they do? And so every time Iran is at a decision point, there is a fracas between what I will call the moderates and the hardliners within their government. The hardliners want to go for the bomb. They think, We can't trust anybody.

We need to get the bomb. They also recently signed a mutual defense pact, just short of mutual defense pact, but a security arrangement with the Russians. So they seem to have a bunker mentality right now. If US intelligence or Israeli intelligence or Western intelligence assesses that they are going for the bomb in a real way, so they can either be true or false, but if they assess it, then there will be severe pressure on the new administration to do airstrikes on Iranian nuclear.

I get it. Look, I don't want Iran to get the bomb. I don't want anyone to get the bomb. I'm against the bomb. But I was around when Pakistan got the bomb. Pakistan is a country with a lot of wonderful people in it, a great country in a lot of ways. Spent a fair amount of time there. However, the government of Pakistan- Is arguably scarier than Iran. You I think, Harvard Osama bin Laden, et cetera. Isi has been really a source of disorder in South Asia for a long time, and they've exported nuclear technology, including to North Korea. No one's ever said anything about that. It's not a crisis that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has the bomb. I don't really get it. I mean, why was that not a crisis? Why do we do nothing to do nothing to stop that?

I guess it occurred basically when the US was still quasi I pro-Pakistan over India. It was- That was a bad bet, by the way. It was a Nixonian bet, actually. He really didn't like Indira Grande. It was basically- Okay, well.

I think we can say longitudinally, that was a bad bet.

He just didn't like one person, and it didn't really matter in the cold war.

No, that was like betting on Wang computers over Apple. It just didn't turn out. Yeah.

I'm not holding a Wang in my... But the point is- Might want to cut that. This No, we're keeping the Wang in. Look, all I'm saying is- My father sold Wang computers. I'm so sorry.

I didn't mean to make it personal.

No, it's just at one point, the top sales in the country of Wang computers.

Your father sold some Wangs.

Yes. Is this actually going in? No, of course, it's actually going in. Are you kidding? Yes. Yes.

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We drink it, we recommend it. Look, all I'm saying is it's important to maybe dial back a little bit on the moral outrage and assess the world as it is, assess what you can do, create a hierarchy of priorities. We don't want other countries to get nuclear weapons. I'm with the neocons 100% on that. But in a complicated world that we don't actually control, what can we do? What are the limits of our power given a lot of other factors, like our domestics, our economy, the needs of our people? You can't do everything.

That's all I'm saying. I think Trump should complete the work of his first term, which is he revoked the JCPOA, the Obama-Iran deal, and he should do a Iran deal.

He's sending Wykow over to do that.

Yeah. Wykow, the affermencient, not only did what he did with the Israelis, he was promoted for it, per reporting. It has not been confirmed to my understanding by the transition or the White House. But per the FT, and I believe another outlet, Wykow is getting, quote, the Iran file within the Trump universe, that's as much power as the President wants to give it. But as of filming, his role is expanding. If Trump wants a lasting legacy of peace and prosperity, there needs to be an accommodation with the de facto government of Iran.

Of course there does. This is just in the This is totally insane. It's counter to our interest, I guess, is what I would say. If you were Trump and you say to Steve Wykoff, Hey, Steve Wykoff, go get a ceasefire in place, and he comes back 20 minutes later with a ceasefire, wouldn't you say, Okay?

We like that pace.

I like that pace. Wouldn't you send him to Iran? I would.

Yes. This is actually something both Trump and Obama, who apparently get along now, at least perfunctured really, agreed on.

Well, they both just like Michelle, I think.

Remember Obama on the debate stage in '08, and he was just howled down for this, whatever you think of Barack Obama, said, We should meet with the Iranian leaders face to face. And Trump did similar maneuvers in the first term. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, with Kim Jong Un, et cetera, et cetera. And again- He's sucking up to dictators. Oh, shut up. Was North Korea policy more stable from 2017 to 2021 or 2021 to 2025?

I don't think after 25 years of this nonsense, killing dictators and watching their countries become more chaotic and more dangerous to the United States and the world, that we have any obligation to listen to people who chirp like that. No.

Sucking up to dig it out.

Shut up.

To link it all.

To link it all. They don't know anything, actually.

We started this conversation with the campaign against the cadres that are now serving Secretary Hexeth. The people that are leading it, as far as I can infer, are oftentimes many of the people that were behind the original Rock War. Well, yeah. This may seem obvious.

I'm 55, so this is driving me completely insane. I thought after we discovered that the pretext of the war was a lie that those people would, I don't know, don ashes in sackcloth and go sit on a pillar for 10 years.

I think a lot of Americans assume that they did. So we do this for a living.

No, they didn't. They went around the World Bank and they still run the State Department, and Tori and Newland, who was an architect of the Iraq War, was an architect of the Ukraine War. This just doesn't end.

But most Americans have real jobs and don't know this. So these people are disguised or shrouded from public view. They are still quite effective at driving home an agenda. In fact, I would assume they will win absent pushback.

Oh, they'll definitely win absent pushback. Oh, 100%. Yeah. That's why I wanted to interview you.

Yeah, they're still hegemony. And even if they're a minority government, so to speak.

Yeah. Because I spent my life in the media, I'm very fixated on their enablers their agents in the American news media. And one of them who's working, has been working for years on their behalf, on behalf of permanent Washington, the foreign policy establishment. Every bad idea is Jennifer Griffin at Fox, the Pentagon reporter, who is now basically texting Domeno.

Is that the- Michael Domeno.

Yeah, is running around on behalf of her sources at the Pentagon doing their bidding, trying to torpedo these guys because permanent staff doesn't want to be challenged on anything. Okay, there's a role for that behavior. It's called lobbying, but it's a little crazy that a supposed news reporter would be acting like that. I'm not guessing this is a fact. She's doing that right now and has been doing that thing for as long as I've been paying attention, a couple of decades. How does that continue?

Yeah, I don't know her personally, but what I will say is the role of most Pentagon reporters has always struck me since I've done this as extremely hierarchical.

What do you mean by hierarchical?

It almost felt like the reporters work for the Pentagon. Well, of course they- Yeah. In any place that I've worked that had a Pentagon correspondent. That was the only way you stayed in the room.

Isn't this a democracy? Where we have civilian command of the armed forces and the entire federal government works for the population of the country, its voters, its citizens, its constituents, shareholders? No. There's no sense of that whatsoever in Washington at all. It's like, what are you doing here?

I think it's fast moving. You didn't see criticisms or skepticism of the military from the right until the very last few years, including from the new president, including from organs of conservative media. I think it started with Mark Millie, but also the- Some of us were up before that. I know, but in public opinion- It was considered a fringe position. It's not fringe.

I just refer you back to the pivot point in American politics in my lifetime, which was the 2016 debate in Greenville, South China, where Donald Trump, home of the highest percentage of military veterans of any state, famously, and Donald Trump came out against the Iraq war, and all the dumbos at the channel I work for in Washington are like, Oh, he's lost it now. He'll never get the nomination. He's offended all the veterans. Of course, all the guys whose lives were destroyed fighting these wars, not on behalf of the United States, not to the benefit of the United States, they were filled with many emotions, frustration, shame, rage, sadness, and they immediately knew what he was talking about, and no one in DC knew what he was talking about.

I think he overperformed his polling. He was polling a certain... He was ahead, and the Bush family came in. That's when it was the last stand for Mr. Jeb. In February of 2016. And George W. Bush campaigned, finally, for Jeb. And it was like, We got to keep him in the race. We're going to make our stand. And he did the big fat mistake, that is a rock, debate. And I think Trump was up 10 or 15 I think he won by over 20 in that debate. Don't quote me on that. It was something like that.

It was right before the primary.

It was there. It was over the polling. So not only did he not go down and still won, he went up and then clearly, triumphed.

That was the moment when It was just whatever his flaws, I was for Trump because here was a guy telling a real truth, a hard truth that no one wanted him to tell and was rewarded for it. I just felt like that's consistent with my principles and beliefs, which is you ought to tell the truth in a healthy country rewards people who tell the truth, not people who lie.

There's a cynical bet, though, I would say that... It's a cynical bet on Trump, and it's a cynical bet on Americans, and it's a cynical on Republicans and independents, which is... I'll just... Let's use the actual language of center left or left wing media. It's a cult. And once the cult leader leaves, we can just go back to 2005 and implant the same old free trade, open borders, endless neoconservatism. Actually, the people that are driving the opposition to these selections in the Pentagon agree with President Trump's critiques in spirit and in practice.

That's an interesting analysis. I mean, it's like SMBC-level dumb person analysis, but it's also like a real analysis. There is a sense in which devotion to Trump has a religious quality to it. That's undeniable. I was just in DC for the inauguration. I can't confirm that. There are a lot of reasons for that. I think a lot of voters feel like Trump is the only person who cares about them. He's their only option. They're on board regardless because where else are they going? And I think that's true, A, and B, I think that's a reflection of how badly the leadership of the country has failed. People will take anything other than that. But I also think saying true things out loud changes history. I think that's the lesson of history. The only people who actually change history are not the ones who marshal the biggest armies, but the ones who speak the truth out loud. I think it's a holy act. I think it's a transformative act. All of history is the story of that act, actually. Sometimes it takes centuries for the consequences to unfold, but they do. It's inevitable. It changes everything once you...

That's why there's such a almost a crazed attempt to shut down people from speaking. Why speaking? They don't care about violence. They care about talking because they understand correctly that that's what matters over time. Once Trump has said all this stuff, there's no going back. No. Do you think... I mean, that's my view. I don't know.

No, I don't agree with the cynical bet. I think it's a bad bet, which is why the tactics are increasingly hysterical and marginal.

But we're robbed of a real debate I mean, I don't know. If you think it's so important to kill the leaders of Iran and get into a full scale war with a real country, which Iran is, which is part of a real coalition.

They won't say full scale. They'll say- Any war. They'll say that the Ayatollah has to go. It's very important to use as scary words as possible. Ayatollah, the Molas, the Islamic Republic emphasize, and again, basically the bin Laden who's dead, runs a country, even though these are different ethnicity and a different religion. It doesn't really matter. You're stupid, and we need to do this again. They won't say an invasion, but again, some of the people pushing this stuff didn't say an invasion in 1996. They softened the ground for it.

But where's the debate on it? I guess that's the point.

There wasn't a debate.

I mean, it's a little harder here, too, because on the question of Russia, it's been surprisingly effective for them to just dismiss all criticism as sponsored by Putin. You don't think it's a good idea to prop up- Speed is very important. The Zelensky government, you're a Putin puppet or whatever.

You want someone to do so many- Can you really call a white American Christian guy a puppet of the mullets?

Probably not. I don't think that works, right? Does it? I guess they're trying it with Steve Wykoff. You're a tool of Qatar.

You're referring to- The Shia, it's...

I just don't think as a rhetorical matter, it's quite as easy.

Should we address the actual allegation? Yes. Wykoff, I believe, took his real estate firm, took some investment from Qatar. Okay. First of all, I would say, throughout the Trump entourage, a lot of them have worked with Gulf States. And as far as I can tell, the real estate business is rife with investments from Gulf States. And then, additionally, as far as I'm aware, this is hardly that man's net worth.

Well, the domestic, I mean, you can't buy an apartment in New York because there's so much Chinese money in the residential real estate market. So the argument is what? You're only allowed to invest in your own country's real estate? Okay, let's start here. Let's and foreign investment in our real estate markets. Oh, no, that's anticapital. Just the whole thing doesn't make sense. What are they saying? What?

With the Qatar argument, specifically, I think it's an unusual place. It was supposed to be the eighth Emirate, so it is separate from the UAE. It is the most conservative of those Emirates, I would say, at least in terms of the government. They have a perspective. They spend money on media. They spend money on press junkets. They have an influence operation. No question. But the idea that this small jetting LNG dependent Peninsula controls US foreign policy, hook, line, and sinker, top to bottom. If you think that, I don't think you're extremely curious.

I do think it's worth having an honest, I've never I've never seen one, there never has been one, but an honest conversation about foreign influence on American policy. I think that's a totally legitimate topic. We've done a lot of lying and pretending, for example, that Russia has undue influence over American foreign policies. It's absurd. But why not have that conversation? Are there are there foreign countries that exert influence on American policy whose interests supersede those of American citizens in the minds of policymakers? There might be some of How would we rank Qatar in terms of its influence? Maybe not in the top three.

Yeah, no.

Right. Just having lived in DC, this whole conversation is so infuriatingly false and just silly? I mean, are they running intel operations against us? There's a lot of Qatar surveillance in Washington. A lot of Qatar agents running around the Willard Hotel I don't think so. Maybe.

Very well discussed.

What are you talking? I mean, our country's doing that. Are they hacking the Pentagon's mainframes? I don't think... Oh, China's doing that. Yeah. Right. Okay.

I Yeah, but making the allegation, though, is a armor, though. It makes you seem informed. It makes you seem like a a spy master. I know something you don't. I'm more serious, quote, unquote, than you.

Everyone traffics in that nonsense.

Yeah. Let's not have a conversation. It's very antidemocratic, small D. It is not agree and disagree. It is not saying we have different values and shaking each other's hand and walking out of the room. It is shutting down the spirit of the system.

That's exactly the complaint that I have. That's the problem that I have with Barry Weiss. It's the problem I have with Jen Griffin. It's the problem I have with Washington Post. Just so much of the media coverage of foreign policy is based on insinuation. The cruelest character-destroying insinuation is that you're not loyal to your own country.

They reach for the biggest-Oh, they go, man, they go right of the face.

I just think that that's beneath a great nation like ours. I think it's beneath any decent person to behave. If you have evidence that someone's selling out of his country, tell me what it is. But to start with that, to accuse Steve Wykoff of being a tool of Qatar, it's so over the top. I just feel like it's important to call out the people doing it and say, You're disgusting. We're not listening to you anymore. You have no influence except that that you project through aggression and threats. We're not playing along anymore.

I think a lot of it is effective in Republican politics. Yes. You were there for the inauguration I observed a week ago. I've always observed that is usually when I meet someone from a red state, like a deep red state, Oklahoma or Alabama, it's often their first time in Washington, DC. It's very like Roman province visiting Rome for the first time. Totally.

I'm here from Gaul. Yeah.

Show me around. Yeah. I would say, Blue State America actually has a lot... The coasts have a lot more familiarity of DC, back and forth, their port access, et cetera, et cetera. So when they hear the argument going on in the capital, there's actually a de facto trust there that might be not as much there on the democratic side. There's actually a more jaundice cynicism on the democratic side. So it was less effective. They assume that the Despite it all, despite all the failures that you've announced that you've reported on fairly tirelessly, they assume that the people in DC know what they're doing. I'm not sure that's the greatest default assumption.

Well, I think the track record speaks conclusively.

I mean, look, respectfully to the new president, I mean, Donald Trump, again, is the only US President who was not a general or a former statewide official or federal official to get the presidency. And with all due respect to the new president, a healthy country doesn't elect something like that. It had that level of outsider. That level of outsider could only exist within a polyody that was deeply sick. And I think he knows that. I think he recognizes that. And the fact that the capital doesn't imbib that lesson, I think they're imbibing a little bit more, but it's still bizarre. Ten years on, June 2015, so June this year, 10 years of Trump, longer than Obama at this point, the Trump era in spirit, in length, It's like, well, maybe there's something wrong with this country, but it's like a 5% recognition. It's not a 95%.

I think Nash... I mean, first of all, I agree completely. I wrote a piece at the very beginning of this whole saga almost 10 years ago.

Donald Trump is shocking, vulgar and right.

Yeah, He's winning because you failed. It's simple, obvious. It was five years ago this month that people started to drop dead in the central Chinese city of Wuhan, five years since the beginning of COVID. And yet, for some reason, we still don't know answers to the most basic questions. And one man knows those answers. His name is Dr. Tony Fauci. And now a documentary filmmaker called Jenner First is out with a new film explaining exactly what happened. The film is called Thank You, Dr. Fauci. We'll see it exclusively here on TCN. Anyway, I don't think DC gets it, but I also think at this point, Trump is the most powerful President, certainly since Roosevelt. Interesting. And the potential for achieving his promises is really high. America has greater problems in its heads since the Great Depression, maybe even bigger than it had then. We have a chance to address them, probably not solve all of them, but make some headway on things that could help Americans: sealing the border, stopping the chaos, just taking a breather so we can figure out how to fix the country. The only thing that could derail that is another foreign war.

We can't do it with this stuff. It is an actual choice. It's an actual choice. We cannot do the border if we do the Middle East.

Full stop. You had 200,000 people, you're dying of drug ODs, and no one said anything about it, and endless lectures about Ukraine. It's no disrespect to the Ukrainians, who I really feel sorry for. But that's so unbelievable that that happened. It's It's like a bad dream. Now we've woken up from the dream and we have this chance. I'm sorry. With respect to Barry Weis and Jen Griffin, you can't do that to us again. I'm not going to go without a fight this time. We have to reorient toward our own interests. That's no disrespect to any other country, to our allies who we wish well and will help to the extent we can, but the idea that we're responsible for all these other countries when we're dying here, no más. Is that a radical position? That's my actual position in my heart. That's my actual position.

I agree. But it's very upsetting not only to leaders of some foreign countries. This is not just the Middle East. We didn't even talk about Russia, Ukraine. But I That perspective is obviously very, very relevant for extricating the United States out of the Russia-Ukraine war, and almost every European capital is unhappy with that. You can have a conversation with a nice Danish person and you might agree on immigration or trade or wine. But you mentioned, Hey, I'm not really sure the United States should be underwriting quagmire in Ukraine, and the conversation shuts down. It is stunning.

Well, they're hell-bent on suicide. The Western-Europeans and not the Eastern Europeans or Central Europeans, but the Western Europeans have decided to kill themselves. It's almost like if someone's standing on a bridge or on a window of a skyscraper and you're trying to talk them back in, it's hard. Who knows why that happens? I think there's a supernatural element at work, is my personal view, but whatever you think the cause is, that's what it is. You blow up Nord Stream, destroy the German economy, and you're not allowed to say anything about it in Germany? I don't know that we can help you at that point. You know what I mean? If you're that intent on self-harm, that anxious to destroy your own civilization, make it impossible for your children to live there, then you're killing yourself. You can't help someone who doesn't want to help himself. Go ahead and jump then. That's how I feel. But just from an From an American perspective, all of this has been bad for us. There's no way to pretend otherwise except to launch into some airy moral lecture about dictatorship and Winston Churchill and Neville Chambleau. Just shut up, okay?

The Churchill thing is really essential.

It's just played out. It's played out. I mean, it's played out in- But there's a gamble that some of this stuff isn't played out, though.

I mean, there's a gamble that... I think people I have... This country is a generational problem, right? Generations don't get along. I think that's fair to say.

For good reason. Yeah.

And I think there's just a bet that a lot of the voters that made the decisions in the '90s and 2000s, are dumb and don't care about their kids' future. And we'll vote for the exact same thing. Clearly, don't. Yeah. Sorry. And we'll exert pressure on the new administration to do the same thing. And I I think there's a bet that the President is a desperate, cynical man who will do whatever it takes when he's pressured. I think the early evidence is that it's untrue. I mean, the The evidence is that Trump is less cynical than even his supporters thought he was.

I think that's the truth.

Do you want to discuss the Pompeo-Brient Hook stuff?

I would. I was just reading the Barry Wey tutorial about how pulling Pompeos.

What did she say? I didn't read it.

It's outrageous. It's a betrayal of Trump's promises.

Mike Pompeo- Is that what the Free Press argued?

Yeah, that you're not allowed. You are required to pay for Mike Pompeo's security detail. I will just say point blank, as someone who has faced greater physical threats than Mike Pompeo, I can promise you that. If I have security, I pay for it myself. Why does Mike Pompeo, as a private citizen, get to stick me with the bill for his security detail? How does that work, Barry Weiss? The point is that Mike Pompeo is a faithful servant of the ideas that she is here to push on the rest of us, and therefore, he will be defended at all costs. But let's just be honest about what's going on. Anyway, sorry.

Yeah. I mean, details roll off. The government doesn't usually advertise it.

Everyone's got a detail. Fauci has a detail. Because he's in my dog park in Washington, and I hear about it.

I think the interesting thing, so it's It's very easy to just glaze over Trump fighting with officials, blah, blah, blah, blah, But he still got bits of egg in his mustache, and I don't have his cell anymore, so I can't tell him, but he needs to fix that. Yeah. Pompeo and Hook.

I mean, look-Tell us who they are.

Mike Pompeo. Mike Pompeo was the former Secretary of State, former CIA Director, former Kansas congressman, former West Point valedictorian.

Harvard graduate.

Harvard law graduate.

Ozempic user. Sorry, I'm doing the whole CV here. Okay, right.

I'm so bitchy.

I'm so sorry that I said that. It's beneath me. I shouldn't have said that.

The Bolton-Trump feud is old. The disagreement with Pompeo is potentially quite new. And so But by all available information, Pompeo was in the mix for Secretary of Defense, most likely, in the days after the election. So much so that his son, Donald Trump Jr, intervened in a online campaign, and other allies within that milieu stopped both Pompeo and the former UN ambassador, South Carolindian governor, Nikki Haley, from getting administration posts.

I had heard about Yeah.

Pompeo- Patriotic Americans rallied, as they did in Boston in the 18th century, to act on behalf of their nation at some personal risk, but they did it anyway.

Unsung heroes.

One of Pompeo's former deputies, Brian Hook, who ran something called the Iran Study Group, and had various other portfolios and titles at the State Department. He's actually someone Pompeo inherited from Rex Tillerson, his predecessor. He kept him on. Brian Hook, at various points throughout the transition in the last 100 days, was reported to be running the State Department's transition at some point, then was rumored, again, it's rumored, I don't I don't post about it. I don't tweet it out. I don't write about it. But it was rumored to have been fired. Very unclear. Trump, in the days leading up to him taking the oval office oath, issued, essentially, an enormous denunciation of fauchua against Mr. Hook. Extraordinary to say, not only is this guy not in the mix, I hate him. And he said That. That occurred. Then, additionally, both Hook and Pompeo's security detail was removed in the last few days.

I don't know that Brian Hook has served in government in four years. Why would he have a security detail paid for by taxpayers?

He definitely has not served Mr. Biden.

Why would he have a security detail paid for by taxpayers?

Not an expert on who gets secret service detail.

But can I just...

I just want to see- Actually, I can actually directly answer that. Yeah. The key thing here is that there is an allegation, a belief, many in the intelligence community believe this, that there were serious credible plans by the Iranians to assassinate members of the Trump high command, as it were. So Trump Hook, John Bolton, et cetera, et cetera, in revenge, principally for the Solomoni assassination.

Because they've been creating a lot of terror attacks in the United States, you've noticed. Oh, no. No, that was in Tifa.

And so that is the essential That is the cause.

I'm just going to have to scoff at all of it. I've heard a lot of this. The cause is belly for it. I hear this all the time.

I think the key thing here is the critique on Trump always was he fired Bolton, but he didn't really understand why. So he soured on the guy, but he didn't He didn't change any policy. He didn't learn. This is the pedantic way of looking at the President. But with the hook and Pompeo removal from his inner circle. There is, I think, very credible evidence that Trump's personal grudges are now blending quite heavily with policy. He doesn't trust the Iran Hawk Old Guard. A lot of the Iran Hawk Olduard think tanks struck out in getting transition officials and officials in this government. And again, circled around this very unlikely Pentagon, helmed by a guy who has changed his life, it appears in pretty severe ways over the last five years, both ideologically and morally, is this very new Pentagon that is now being targeted by all the usual suspects. It is the biggest story in American politics that people aren't talking about.

If I could sum up what I think you're saying, it is that Donald Trump may have actually broken the grip of the neocons on Washington.

I mean, you control the Pentagon. You control the military. I mean, it's- It just seems like this is...

Because there was always this question about Trump. You get up and you give these speeches where you say, We don't want more pointless wars, I believe in peace through strength. He's not a wuss. It's not Jimmy Carter. But you assert American power, but you don't imbroil the country and worse that you can't win for no reason. It's a very moderate, sensible, common sense, I would say view. So you say those things, but then you hire John Bolton. The question is why? And Trump would say, I've heard him say, Well, I hired Bolton. I beg your pardon. I hired Bolton because he's a lunatic, and he's a warmonger freak. He's obviously watching war porn late at night, and people can smell that on him. And so when he goes into a negotiation, he scares the crap out of everybody. And then I show up, he's the heavy and I'm-Beckhoff. He's the Bat cop. I mean, I've heard Trump say that. I didn't know if I believe that or not, but I'm starting to think that I should have just believed him because it sounds like Trump's actual instincts are what he says they are.

Yeah, I mean, the Bolton firing itself is, again, ancient history, but it's circled around an issue of policy. Oh, I remember. Yeah. I mean, Trump had invited the Taliban, which was then the outlaw, not government of Afghanistan, as it is today, to Camp David on 9/11. I just love the sound of it.

Which is the sound of it. So Trump invited the Taliban to Camp David. He did.

He literally did that. I mean, I'm just reporting the facts here.

It's a great sentence. So Donald Trump invited the Taliban. So who's coming for dinner tonight at Camp David? Who the Taliban will be here?

Bolton. Bolton was wiped out before this meeting never happened, but it was the instigating incident for the final breakdown of their relationship.

I do think it's important, Kurt, to just recognize the inherent hilarity of a lot of... It is in addition to being grave and historically significant, it's very funny.

It is quite- Very funny.

A lot of this stuff is very funny.

It is funny. Yeah.

It's pretty great. You're very restrained and business-like precise as a reporter should be, as an editor should be. But the story that you're telling, I think, I don't want to put words in your mouth, is a story of real change. Finally, we actually appear to be getting to a foreign policy that puts America close to the center of the action. Is that what you're seeing?

No. If he sees this through, this is the biggest presidency. Certainly, since Reagan, you alluded to FDR, it is moving the ship of state, and people are going to try to stop him from doing it. Yes. But they're not going to say that he's bad, though. They're going to go after- No one will ever say right. Yeah.

I just want to counter-signal by saying I think what you're saying is true. I think it's real, and I've never admired Trump more. I don't think I'm going to ask this around the Trump question, but this is like, America really needs this. It's super important, and it's not radical at all. It's We're not attacking anyone or canceling our allyship with any country at all. It's just readjusting expectations for what we can achieve.

The reason that I started covering war on foreign policy, principally, is that the reality is that US domestic policy is a morass. It's impossible to get anything done. Exactly. Obama tried to do a health care plan. They did six years in, they couldn't even get the website working. The country is hard to govern. But externally, the President is Imperial. He's God. Quite literally the most powerful person on Earth. If you want to burnish a legacy real quick, you do big things in foreign policy. You do shocking things in foreign policy.

That's what all the Republican Senate have figured out.

You do surprising things in foreign policy.

You're John McCain. You're whatever. You've got a lot of problems in your personal and public life, but you can bomb around Eastern Europe and get treated like an Emperor and feel like you're doing something. You're Jim Rish or Mike Rounds or some US Senator nobody's ever heard of, even in his home state. But when you travel to Romania to tour NATO base, people are like, Oh, Senator Rish is here.

The foreign relationship chair. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. So that's a big motivator for our lawmakers, isn't it?

Sure. For sure. I mean, yeah.

I mean- You go to Idaho Falls and no one's like, Oh, I can't believe you're here. But Chairman Rich. Chairman Rich. It's like such an absurd. Anyway, excuse me. Interesting. I interrupted you because I can't control myself. Zero self control. I'll get on the topic of pizza or neocons, and I'm just out of control. Tell me your analysis of Trump canceling the security details for Brian Hook and Mike Pompeo.

Well, he seems to have the authentic view that these people can afford it, especially with Fauci and especially with Bolton. He specifically flagged them. Yeah.

And Pompeo, who's now running around being like, I'm actually a businessman.

He's on a board of a Ukrainian company as well.

Well, he's on, I think, more than one board, but he's certainly running around, including with people I know, saying, I'm really a business guy.

Look, the Pompeo's thing is supremely interesting because I think it's somebody who probably would have positioned himself to run in a major way had Trump lost. I think it's somebody who's not going to quit being president. This is not an unintelligent man.

Pompeo is smart.

Yeah, this is a real fighter.

He's not dumb.

No, I agree. This is a real fighter. I don't want to say he's part of the cynical bet crowd, but he's making a bet that the Trump thing will pass, and I will be able to steamroll people like Vance and even Rubio in the future because I'm more vicious. In the meantime, maybe make some money, influence the debate, et cetera, et cetera. And he's very impressive if you don't know... If you don't come in with huge foreign policy convictions as I think you and I do, he can be very persuasive.

Just for the record, I had no foreign policy convictions. I don't think I'm ideological on the question at all. I just think in general, our foreign policy should serve the nation.

I am. I think this was very interesting about some of these Pentagon pics, not to keep linking it back. I hope you will. But also the vice president. A lot of these people, my generation, the millennials, fought in these wars. Oh, yeah. And although the baby boomers, forget it, we're now old, and we grew up, and we're quite mad about it. And it's a bipartisan thing. It's not just a Democrat, anti-Iraq war, indie music thing. It's like, young Republican people hate it, too. Oh, I- And they might hate it more, actually, which is actually the interesting thing. And the Republican Party, frankly, under Trump, might be a vessel of anti-war sentiment far more effectively than the Democrats. I didn't see a lot of protests for the Ukraine war. The Israel stuff was pretty interesting. That was probably was number one threat to Biden circa April. Remember that?

For sure.

But if you look at the conversation online, if you look at the sentiments of younger Conservatives, young Republicans, the anti-war stuff is big, and it's not going anywhere. I think that also drives a sense of a timetable, which is we've got these older people in their '60s, '70s, '80s, and '90s. They have a certain belief set. They're the people that voted for the stuff in the '90s and 2000s, and we get this stuff done now before the United States turns on both parties on this stuff. And this was always-So we can't afford it anymore, and our allies pivot to China and sell even more defense technology to China.

I do think there... Okay, so with a backbone of support for these wars has been evangelicals. Let's just be blunt about it. Everyone beats up on the neocons or whatever. There are these fervent intellectuals in Washington. But really, the foot soldiers of this have been Fox News viewers who are not ideological, they're not intellectuals. They're just normal American patriotic, heavily evangelical people. And The truth is, I think a lot of them are beginning to recognize that their religion does not support this at all. It's really clear. Genesis 6, why do we have the flood? Why does God kill everything on Earth? All the people except Noah and his family, all the animals except the ones in the Ark. Why does he do that? He spells it right out because they're committing violence. That's why. It's like the idea that, I mean, the Iraq war breaks out and all these preachers are like, No, really? We have to fight Islam and kill all these people, and that's what God That's not what it says at all. There's no mention of any specific secular government in the New Testament. Sorry, guys. I think a lot of Christians are beginning to realize this.

Because you're a Christian, it doesn't mean you have a specific political agenda at all, I don't think. But if your political agenda is like, violence, that's prohibited. Sorry. It could not be clear. It's on every freaking page. I don't know the deception involved in this was just mind that these preachers could get up on Fox News and tell you that, yeah, killing people is what Jesus wants. No, that's not true. I just feel among people I know a growing recognition of that. I think it's a huge problem for the war lobby, which has used these people as its supporters. You see it in the Congress. I'm an evangelical, and I'm for another war with somebody. No, you can't do that anymore.

Hoping people are zoned out. You do think that? Yeah. I think they're hoping the country's old, tired, zoned out, can't oppose it. And they're hoping that these initiatives can be achieved piecemeal. Start by bombing Iran here, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe the government will collapse, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

To be replaced by what? The same people who replaced Sad and Gaddafi and Saddam and the Taliban.

Okay, to take the other side, the Sad thing is pretty close to the best case scenario of how that could have gone. I think in Iran, it would go way, way, way worse. It's a much bigger country.

It's hard to know. You're rolling the dice. You start killing people and things go sideways. You think you- It's pretty close to Iraq and Afghanistan combined. It feels that way to me.

You have the capacity for major urban violence, a la Iraq. You have huge cities. Not that Kabul is small, but you have that. Then additionally, you have the mountain element. Any outlaw can contingent can just flee there. We learned this with our Southern neighbor. Why is Mexico ungovernable? The mountains. You just flee. The entire coastline is- Why is Kentucky ungovernable?

Same reason.

Okay. Yeah. No, no. I mean, it's hard to... It would be very, very, very difficult. Ask Saddam Hussein, who tried to invade Iran and didn't work out for Mr. Hussein. A lot of things didn't.

No, I agree completely. Well, you have actually given me… I asked you to come for this conversation. It's late at night. I was very exercised about it. You were nice enough to come, and we're in a hotel room in some city, but I thought it was going to be more depressed by the end. But actually, I feel really heartened by what you said.

Thank you for having me.

Well, thank you for making me feel a lot better. Kiret Mills. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Tucker Carlson's show. If you enjoyed it, you can go to tuckercarlson. Com to see everything that we have made, the complete library, tuckercarlson. Com.