Transcript of Former Green Beret and SMU Operator | David Carmichael | Ep. 412

Hey folks, this is episode 412 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with our guest on the show, David Carmichael. He is the author of Gray Man: A Life Lived Under the Radar. You guys can go and find this book on Amazon right now. I read the Kindle version, but I also have a hard copy here. It is about David's life growing up. He had a very interesting upbringing growing up largely in Africa. And then it chronicles some of his journey through the Army as well. So Michael, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me. I do too.

So I guess to start at the beginning, David, I mean, tell us a little bit about, you know, your family background.

My grandparents immigrated from Scotland, right, well, originally during the— just before the Depression. Then when the Depression hit, they headed back to England and came back just before the war started to the States. My father was born in England and then he married my mother here in the States and they decided to become missionaries. So they My grandparents were already missionaries in Ghana, which was at the time was the West Coast, Gold Coast in West Africa. That's where my father grew up. He came back to the States, got married, and he went back. And I grew up in Mali mostly with trips to boarding schools throughout West Africa. And I was there from 1956 to until I came to the States to go to college and join the military. My parents were out there for 27 years. My brother grew up out there and he went back to Africa for mostly the rest of his life. I have a long history, particularly in West Africa. Back then, well, when we first got there, the The countries were French West Africa, they were colonized by the French, or in some cases the British, and it was a pretty good life.

And along about 1960, '61, most of those countries got their independence and turned directly towards the Eastern Bloc, China, North Korea, East Germany, Russia, who came in the country, and it wasn't so great a living after that. So I grew up in a little town near Timbuktu, which is the fabled city up on the north side of the Niger River at the edge of the Sahara Desert. And we would travel from there down country to boarding schools in Guinea, Ivory Coast and stuff. We lived for the first 12 years, we lived in a mud hut, no electricity, no running water. And yeah, about 12 years in, my father got a little Onan generator, so we had a little bit of electricity at night to listen to BBC and Voice of America. There was little to no communication. The only communication was the government landline down at the government post office, and it worked if the camels didn't eat the— he didn't eat the lines. So it could take weeks literally to get information in and out back then. All the mail came in by the occasional airplane or up the river on the riverboats. So that was my life.

I would go off to— I went off to boarding school as a 6-year-old the first time and spent 8 months away from my parents in the mountains of Guinea. So yeah, boarding schools weren't fun. As you can read in the book, we went, you know, there were hard times at boarding schools. And my book, if anything, is a story of resilience. It's of living that life, going to those boarding schools, and still, you know, having a successful military career and successful business career. And so, you know, I hope that some other, some young person who's struggling will maybe read it and realize that they don't have to, they don't have to live under the circumstances they were dealt.

Yeah. Well, yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more. I mean, 6 years old is pretty young to be separated from your parents. And I mean, but in their mind, I mean, I remember in the book you mentioned that your father went to boarding school also. They, they felt that they were kind of giving you a proper education even though you were out in the wilds of West Africa? Was that kind of the thought?

I mean, that's part of it, but the reality was that the missions, pretty much all missions at the time, felt that the missionaries could not, could not win the hearts and souls of the Africans if they were busy teaching their children school. And there was extreme pressure on the missionaries at the time, not just our mission but others, to send their kids off to boarding school. The option, you know, there was the option of doing homeschooling, but I said it was highly discouraged back in those days. It's only been in the, you know, in the last 30 years that all the abuses and problems of boarding schools came out and it's gotten a lot of attention and not, you know, not only, well, all boarding schools including Catholic schools and, you know, all that stuff. So nowadays people wonder how the heck did you ever do it, especially, you know, a mother sending off her 6-year-old, but it was kind of what was expected at the time.

And so the first boarding school was Agana. You were 6 years old. I mean, you were very young, but you do relate some of those experiences. I mean, what do you remember about that first run at boarding school?

Well, as I said, I was 6 years old. My parents couldn't take me to school that first year, so I rode with another missionary family and You know, you get into the Highlands of Guinea, it's beautiful, beautiful area, but you know, the boarding school, the— and there was dorm parents and teachers that, you know, were rough on you. It was a, you know, it's a rough life. There was a lot of abuse, females had a lot of sexual abuse. Males had a lot of mental, spiritual, and physical abuse. You were required to write a letter home each week, but that letter never went out unless the dorm parents approved it, and they highly censored it. They would make you change whatever. So parents, for the most part, didn't know what was going on. And they learned some when you came home, but, you know, I went that first year. The semesters were set up in 4-month semesters with a 2-week break in between. And if your parents could, they, they could come down and spend, take you to wherever for 2 weeks on a vacation. But that first year, my parents weren't able to come, so I spent 8 months that first year you know, away.

Kind of, you know, that's not what you want for a 6-year-old, I guess.

Yeah, some of the things you describe, like, in, in the book, I mean, it goes beyond, like, you know, hitting a kid's knuckles with a ruler or, you know, occasional paddle because somebody acts up. I mean, some of the things you describe, it almost sounds like a kind of cult.

Well, the problem in those cases was that The people that the missions chose to be dorm parents were often missionaries who didn't do well in other places, and they were relegated to that job. And in some cases, they didn't want to be there, and they were just mean and abusive. There's no other way to put it. Um, so yeah, everything that was described in that book, and I didn't even touch the surface because, you know, I gave a lot of references, and there's a video series on YouTube called, uh, All God's Children. Um, All God's Children: The Documentary is what it— what it's to look it up. And it gets a highly detailed account of all that abuse that went on. And the people that made that video, uh, were my roommates. Rich Dyer, one of the primaries in the video, was my roommate. His brother was a year older. So I was, I was there. I was involved in everything you see in that video. So that's it. If someone is further interested in the abuse that went on at boarding schools, that's a great video to watch. But I listed a bunch of other references there as well.

And after that was over and, you know, you went back to your parents after 8 months, sort of How did your life pick up from there?

You know, when you went home after 8 months for a 3-month break, it was, you know, started out with, you know, euphoria. You're back with your family. Everybody's happy to see each other. You know, we spent a great 3 months hunting and fishing in our— in our time. It was— it was— it was great, you know. And then And all of a sudden you're a couple of weeks away from going back and everything gets somber again and you're off doing it all over again. So that went on, you know, that went on for 3 or 4 years for me in Guinea. And then the president of the country at the time, Sékou Touré, kicked all the Westerners out. And so we went to another boarding school in the Ivory Coast. Called Ivory Coast Academy, and it was much, much better from a standpoint of use. It was a— it's a much better school. So I spent 3 or 4 years there, and then I came back to the States in time to finish high school, and shortly after that joined the military. But, you know, coming back to the Western world or to the States after being in Africa, we typically— we'd stay in Africa 4 years at a time, then we'd come home for a year, and my parents would go around and, you know, talk to their churches and raise support and stuff.

But we kids, our clothes were 10 years out of date, our social norms were out of date. We were coming back to kids in high school who had grown up together, been on the peewee leagues together, all knew each other, and we were, you we just didn't fit in, you know. And even if, you know, our parents— missionaries live on the, on what the churches give them and what the, you know, so they don't have a lot of money. So they weren't buying us the latest clothes and, you know, the latest things that a teenager would want to have to fit in. So even coming back to the United States, it was You know, that was quite a—

quite a culture shock.

Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of people put off buying a new mattress because it feels like a hassle. Too many options, too many claims, and no real way to tell what's actually going to hold up. GhostBed makes that decision easier. GhostBed is a family-run company with more than 20 years of mattress-making experience backed by deep manufacturing expertise. Their approach is straightforward. Focused on quality materials, smart construction, and consistency over time, not flashy features or complicated sales tactics. Every GhostBed mattress is built for long-term comfort using durable foam and proven cooling technology to help regulate temperature while you sleep. It's designed to feel reliable night after night, not just when it's brand new. And if you're not sure which mattress is right for you, GhostBed's online mattress quiz helps narrow it down quickly. Whether you're a side sleeper who needs a little plushness or someone who prefers a firmer feel, the quiz matches you with the right option based on how you actually sleep. They also keep pricing grounded. GhostBed mattresses cost up to 50% less than comparable brands. You can rest easy knowing you're not— you're getting one of the best values at this quality level. Every mattress comes with a 101-night sleep trial, an industry-leading warranty, and fast free shipping.

And as a Team House listener, you can get an extra 10% off your order. Just go to ghostbed.com/house and use the promo code house at checkout. That's ghostbed.com/house, code house, for an additional 10% off site-wide. Okay, upgrade your sleep with GhostBed, makers of the coolest beds in the world. Some exclusions apply, see site for details. Thank you, GhostBed, for sponsoring the show. Thank you guys for helping support the show. Bye.

So you come back to finish high school, and I guess before moving on, I mean, and maybe you didn't even know this at the time, but looking back on that, you clearly were raised with a strong Christian upbringing. Did some of those negative experiences in your early life kind of like carry over, and did they affect either your faith or, you know, how you kind of proceeded through the rest of your early years?

Yeah, you know, growing up it was, uh, twice on Sunday and at least once during the week, and revivals where everybody, you know, if you didn't get on your knees at the altar every time they made a call, you were, you were, you know, shamed. That's what I grew up with. And then I briefly went to a Bible college in the States, and about the time I turned 20 years old I divorced myself from all that. I joined the Army, and I basically left all that behind me at that time. Um, that's not to say I haven't gone to church, but I've gone to some churches, not often frankly, but some churches that are more liberal than the, uh, the Baptists. You know, the Baptists I grew up with was You didn't smoke, drink, or chew, dance, go with girls that do. You didn't go to the movies. There was a time where we weren't allowed to do anything strenuous on Sunday. You know, it was that kind of a very conservative upbringing. So once I joined the military, you know, I kind of left it open. And it was many years after that before I even really reconnected with my family.

I wasn't at odds with my family, but they were overseas, I was overseas, I was going in the military. We just didn't have much time to interact. And it wasn't until basically after I retired from the military that I— and settled down a little bit— that I reconnected with even my family. But so to answer your question, I guess I would consider myself spiritual but not religious.

No, I get it. And so it sounds like the Army was kind of an escape in a lot of ways for you.

It was, you know, I had to— from my earliest days, I can remember wanting to be a soldier. I can remember playing Army. It's something I just always wanted to do. And but yes, it was an escape. I initially, you know, and I always wanted to be an elite whatever. So in my mind, that was Special Forces, right? So I went in on delayed entry program with their— what they called a guarantee back then, or their contract to be able to try out for Special Forces. And then I hurt my knee playing college soccer, and they reneged on that. So I said, well, shit, I'm going in anyway. So I went in, they put me in as avionics mechanic. I spent 3 years doing that. Then I, then I got out for a period of time. And then, you know, I said to myself, you know, I've always had this goal. I'm going to go do it. So I signed back up, re-enlisted, and with a guarantee to go to airborne school. That's what happened.

And you had to finagle your way into Special Forces after that.

Yeah, yeah, for better or worse. When they, when they sent me to Fort Bragg, I went to 18th Airborne Corps Repo Depot, or I was supposed to, but when I hit Bragg, I went over to 5th Special Forces Group and I asked to see the Sergeant Major. Pretty ballsy, I suppose, for a Spec 4, but yeah, he saw me. I said, look, I grew up in Africa, I speak these languages, I'd be wasted somewhere else, I'd really like you to put me on Special Forces, and he did. So that's how I got into 5th Group. Now, once I was in there, I let it be known that I wanted to go to the Q course, but of course only the only the hardcore skills guys that were, you know, the type of people that are on A-Teams. That's what they were sending to Q course. But it turned out that the command had decided at the time that they wanted intel and ops guys with the teams, and if they were going to deploy with the teams, they needed to have all the same training as the teams. So that's how I was able to get into the Q course.

And what about what year was this that you got the 5th Group?

'78. '78.

Okay.

I went through, I went through UORI in the winter of '79-'80.

So it's probably like Colonel Montel was the commander at the time.

Yeah, that name rings a bell. Yeah. I think Maxim, Sergeant Maxim had just left. He wasn't, he wasn't the TAC. I think he might have left the class before I got there.

And I think, I think Mark Boyat and Taffy Carlin were both either lieutenants or captains at the time in 5th Group. They've both passed on, unfortunately, but—

Who is the colonel that cut down all those Koreans with a, with an ax, with a shovel.

Oh, shit. I don't know. I do.

He was—

he's Medal of Honor recipient. Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't remember his name.

I think I feel like he was, of course, at my level. I'm not exactly sure, but I think he was the guy that was in charge of training.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so when they brought you into 5th Group, you're, you know, a part of the unit, but as you point out yourself in the book, I mean, you're not a Green Beret just yet until you graduate the Q course. And what did they have you doing at the unit in the meantime?

I was brought into the 801st MI Battalion. And so I was doing, you know, what young intel guys do in an MI battalion. But frankly, I wasn't there that long before I went off to selection. And then, and then not long after selection, I got picked up for OCS.

So how did that happen? Did you, you applied for OCS at the same time you were applying for selection?

Yeah, I had applied for OCS about the same time. Well, when I got to the unit and I mean, not the unit, the 801st in the 5th Group and You know, I've basically forgotten about it, and it came through sometime after I finished the Q course, not too long after that. So obviously normal SF guys going through the Q course, they— their second phase, phase 2, is whatever their, their discipline is. In our case, they basically put us through an EIB course, basically. To train us to be all in all the infantry skills. So that, that was the phase 2 that they put our group through. I don't know how many of the group— there was probably about 20 O&I guys, maybe 10, 20. I don't know how many made it through, no idea.

What else would you recall about the Q course at that time? Um, those were sort of still sort of the early days of Special Forces as it was getting more formalized?

Yeah, one thing I know, or I realized from seeing the way things are, you know, now, is the, the unit itself put us through our pre, pre-course training. And not only did that whether you were going to scuba school or whatever. But for the— you didn't have like right now, I think they got like 2 or 3 different levels of pre-selection before you ever get to Camp McCall. Anyway, I went to Camp McCall at that time. They were the old wooden barracks, you know, there was no heat obviously. There was no hot water, and, you know, we did our time at Camp McCall like everybody else did, you know, beating, you know, doing the rucksack marches and hoping we weren't the last guy through the gate. I never did have to beat the gates, but yeah, it was, you know, it was tough. And then Phase 3, it was wintertime in North Carolina, so It was cold, a lot of ice and cold rain and stuff. Oddly enough, my hobby now is restoring old Land Rovers, so I take my old Land Rovers to events up and down the East Coast. And one of the events, in fact, I'm going to later this month is in Uwharrie, Uwharrie National Forest.

So it's kind of interesting to go back there and be able to drive around the woods that We had to hike through.

That's because, uh, you, you got exposed to, uh, Land Rovers when you were in Africa driving around.

Yeah, yeah, we had Africa, uh, Land Rovers growing up in Africa. And when I finally— when I retired and started a business and started, you know, making a little money, had enough wherewithal, I started— I bought my first Land Rover and No, I have more than I need, but that's what I do. But yeah, and I've actually met some guys up in Uori that volunteer as local guerrillas and stuff, and they help the cadre and stuff. Yeah, so it's kind of fun to come full circle on that.

Um, so you graduate the Q course and then you go to OCS. Um, and that— and now are you coming back to 5th Group as an officer?

Yeah, maybe. But what they did was they sent me off, they branched me MI, which was unfortunate, but I didn't have a choice. I would have rather been branched infantry. So right away they sent me off to basic course out of Fort Huachuca. And then, you know, the advanced course comes along. I spend a couple years at Wachuka trying to figure out how to get out of there. And then I was picked up for an MTT to Somalia, again based on my Africa background. And through that MTT, I met a couple of guys who later remembered me and pushed for me to be invited to go to selection for this other unit I was in. So in— so I was able to— so I was still an intel officer. I was trained in all the, all the intel disciplines, but basically I spent most of my career doing human stuff.

Um, before moving on, let's talk a little bit about that MTT to Somalia because that must have been very very interesting, especially, I imagine you guys got there right after the Soviets pulled out.

We did. In fact, the school buildings that we were teaching in had closets, it still had Soviet maps, Soviet compasses and other Soviet things in them. We trained the security and intel cadre, about 40 people. And being an intel guy, I did a complete study of Somalia and all the people while I was there. And I had pictures of every one of them, and I had, you know, whatever bio I could get on it. I mean, it was something— wasn't something I was tasked to do on the MTT. I just did it and came back to States and nobody was interested. And in 1983, was that when Somalia came around? In '9— was it '83? Somalia. Anyway, when we went back into Somalia, I contacted people and said, hey, I have all this stuff. Some of the people you may be fighting now are people I trained. Are you interested? And the answer was no, got nothing. Um, which in my mind is typical. Intel services, if you are not with them at the time, in the moment, you know, they don't, they don't, they don't give you much credence.

I should point out too, for our listeners, an MTT is a Mobile Training Team. So that's sort of like the bread and butter of Special Forces really is going around the world and training. Around that time, so you were in Somalia '83, I think 1983, we sent the first MTT to Lebanon also. And but ODAs, A-Teams at that time were all over Central, South America. I mean, all over the place.

Yeah. Yeah. They were. That's the one I got chosen to do. Mm-hmm.

And how do you— what was sort of your impression of the Somalian forces at that time and the people that you were training?

You know, I wasn't very impressed, and that the African forces that I came across were not very impressive, not very well trained. The Somalis would rather, you know, sit around and chew khat and stay up all night than, you know, than actually work. You know, even trying to get them to do simple things like map reading courses and anything that involved physical activity, you weren't getting much out of them. I wasn't impressed, bottom line. But we had a job to do. We trained them in, you know, some intel stuff and map reading and that kind of thing.

And so you did a good enough job on this MTT, it sounds like, that it caught some people's attention and they started suggesting maybe there's another place that you could go?

Yes. Yeah, there was a couple, or at least one guy that was on the team, plus another guy that I had known in another unit. And, you know, I guess they remembered my Africa background or something. For some reason they decided I was appropriate for the, for evaluation.

And what are you able to say about the, that evaluation, that selection course that you, you went through? And I mean, at that time, did you even really know what you were trying out for?

No, no. And it was— it's been described in, in many podcasts and, and books and stuff, but it's a typical selection that special mission units go through, going back to SAS days. Patterned after the SAS, designed to test your mettle and see how far you're willing to go without knowing where you're supposed to go or how far you're supposed to go. Was that kind of a thing?

Using, uh, yeah, land navigation and ruck marching as sort of like a stressor, right?

Right. Yeah, it wasn't— I mean, I don't think it was about how physical you could be, although there's probably a component, but it's how you react to constantly changing unknowns. Mm-hmm.

And when the course ended, you know, did— what was that like for you? Did you get brought into a board, or how did they tell you that, you know, they wanted you to come to the unit?

Yeah, there was a board, selection board at the end of the, at the end of the selection process. And then, then after that, you go to the, to the organization and get further training.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, you talk in your book, for instance, you mentioned that you got to go to the farm and get trained on human intelligence tradecraft. Like, was that like kind of a rare thing at that time for Army guys to be able to go and do that?

Not necessarily for Army guys, but it was kind of unique for me being, uh, Special Forces trained to also be a human intelligence officer. There was a few of us around, but not too many at that time. Um, you know, I also— I mean, that was It was an awesome opportunity for me because yes, I went there for— and was trained the way all Army case officers are trained, but I also during my time in the command, you know, went to HALO school and SCUBA school. So it was kind of unique to have that opportunity and not only to get one as an officer but to get two both disciplines as an officer. So I went to Key West in '84, and I swore that was the hardest school I ever went to, and I swore I'd never forget it. But I ended up honor graduate, one of the honor graduates out of it. So worked fine, and I went on to be a diver for many years after that. Civilian and, you know, had all the PADI disciplines. And in my business, we made— we had a sewing— we have a sewing factory and we made gear bags for the scuba industry.

So as part of that, my son and I would enter all the spearfishing tournaments, sponsored all of them in this area, and we did that for for a lot of years.

Yeah, I mean, it is pretty cool. And the way you kind of talk about it in the book, it sounds like, you know, you guys and what you were doing, you were almost like the modern version of the OSS to be a huminter and also be this sort of like commando that's, you know, freefall trained and dive trained and everything else.

You know, as I said in the book, armies all over the world have units that are trained to do what the average soldier is not trained to do. They all, you know, they all have special operations elements. They all need intelligence for their missions. Um, so yeah, I don't know how unique it was in the world of, you know, of that, but yeah, that's— I mean, I was a human, human guy. And yeah, you know, I mean, post, uh, post-Iran '79, you know, there, there was They were looking— this was before JSOC, this was— but, you know, there were certain elements that were being stood up at the time to, to, you know, fill in the gaps that were realized after Desert One.

Yeah, there was kind of a feeling, right, that the CIA wasn't really able to support the intelligence needs of the military, right? and we had to kind of fill that gap.

It's my understanding that's the way the military felt. They wanted people who were, who were their people, who were trained the way they knew they were trained, to collect the information that they specifically needed to do their specific jobs. And the CIA didn't necessarily provide that to them, nor did the conventional intelligence services.

And I feel like we should also take a moment here to mention, you know, this timeframe, '83, '84, '85, you're getting married, you're having children. Tell us a little bit about how you meet your wife and how you start a family.

I met my wife when I was still a Spec 4 at Fort Huachuca. Her father was a Sergeant Major there. I met her, I don't, you know, she, I'm 8 years, 6 years older than her, so I was 24, she was 18 when we got married. We, and then we had the kids after we went back to Fort Benning, back to Fort Bragg, back to Fort Benning, and then finally back to Fort Huachuca as an officer. That's when we had our kids. But I spent a lot of time away from home, as most guys do. But the unit we were in was, you know, had a really supportive wives group and And, uh, but my wife Jackie pretty much raised the boys on her own for many years. And, uh, it was only, uh, when it came time to retire that I, I decided my kids were just going into junior high and I said, you know, I got to be around, I got to be around for that. So that's when I chose to retire. I am I had put in my papers for retirement. Branch called and said, hey, you're number 1 on the list within— not probably not for the whole Army, but whatever— within my peer group.

And do you want to reconsider? And I said, no, no, I'm time to get out, start a business and take care of my family.

You guys did spend some time in Korea right before you retired.

Yeah, I spent 2 years. I was the liaison officer, the NNSC, which is Neutral Nations Security Commission, at Panmunjom. So I represented the UNCMEC or the U.S. Armed Forces in Korea to the neutral nations Commission countries, which were the Czechs, the Polish, the Swiss, and the Swedes. And their job since armistice day was to just kind of monitor the peace. And they had compounds right up on the demarcation line. And, you know, that's where those blue Quonset huts are that you see in newsreels, you know, when they have repatriation of remains, or when, you know, important people meet up there, or occasionally a defector runs across the border. Yeah, yeah, that happened. So yeah, I was— that was my job, was to support those people. But we also met weekly, if not daily, with North Koreans, the North Koreans our North Korean counterparts. So, you know, I met with North Koreans probably more than the joint duty officer did. But yeah, that's what I did for 2 years. It was an accompanied assignment. My family lived on the base in Yongsan, and it's like a mini USA there. It was great living for them. Actually a good assignment for me too.

I was— I would drive up to Panmunjom a couple hours up every morning, come back in the evenings. Sometimes I'd stay the night up there, but generally I was free on the weekends, so it was pretty good assignment. The, uh, the NNSC that— so after the wall came down, attitudes, politics started changing, and the Czechs were the first to pull out They had increasingly poor relationship with their North Korean host. The Czechs pulled out and then right about the time I left or just after I left, the Polish pulled out and that effectively ended the NNSE. I think the Swiss and the Swedish stayed on for a while, but I'm not sure there's anything going on there now.

What was your impression of the North Koreans? I got to ask because we have a sort of view in America of these sort of stone-faced North Korean general. Um, I was wondering what the reality was like, you know, for you and what you thought.

Everyone I saw was that way, but you got to understand that the, uh, the people that are at Panmunjom are probably hand-picked for the purpose, highly, highly, uh, trained, highly motivated supporters of the regime. Yeah, they were that way. Those guards up there would be happy to shoot you if they thought they had an opportunity. I explain in my book where I had to— sometimes I'd screw around with them and there's some information in there where I just play with them. They were— those young North Korean guards in Taos were tasked to watch my every step. Whereas most people might walk down the middle of the pathway, I would sidle up next to the buildings, get in the shadows, get under the overhangs where they couldn't see me, and you know, just to mess with them. But you know, there was people got shot running across trying to cross that line, and I had my escape routes mapped out. So if anything happened, I knew how to get away.

You got there a little, a little bit after the famous Hatchet incident, right?

Well, quite a bit. That was in '76.

Okay.

And but prior to that, you could walk pretty, pretty freely between the buildings and, you know, around that, that that area in Phan Muon and Chau Nher. But after that, they kind of stopped that and everybody stayed on their sides of the line. You know, I, I pushed the envelope on that.

So one of the other things I wanted to ask you about, and I know you can't really tell the story behind it, but you made major as you kind of round out your career. And you got an award from the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, the DCI Award. Can you tell us— I know, again, I know you can't tell really the backstory, but can you tell us about that award itself?

No, to be honest, I can't. I mean, suffice it to say that the guy who endorsed my book is Rick Prado, the guy who wrote Black Ops.

Yep.

And he has, he has some nice things to say about me. But I'd rather not say where or when, because that might give away too much.

Oh, no, I understand. I was sort of more asking, like, what is that award like? Is it the equivalent of like a Silver Star?

Well, my understanding is it's the highest award that the agency gives to a non-agency employee. I may be wrong about that, but that's what I was always told.

That's pretty cool.

And, you know, it's something that the DCI gives, uh, Director of Central Intelligence Agency gives, uh, to someone who's done a job they like, I guess.

Uh, well, start to talk to us. You mentioned it a little bit about, um, you know, when you decide to retire and you want to spend some more time with your family. Um, tell us a little bit about like winding down, getting to Tampa and starting to put your retirement papers in.

When, uh, when I finished the tour in Korea, the, uh, branch said, uh, since you've had this hardship tour, we'll let you have your choice of places to go. I didn't think it was a hardship tour, but they did. And I said, well, dang, I want to go to Florida then. Send me to Tampa. And so that's how I ended up in Tampa. And, you know, I worked there for 2 years, but there really wasn't much going on. Gave me time to go through the Command General Staff course by correspondence. And then I decided to retire. They— what would have happened was, had I taken the promotion that they said was, you know, right there around the corner for me, I know I'd have ended back up in— I'd ended up in D.C. doing something, and I would have ended up doing something that took a lot of time away from my kids. So I just decided to stay and retire in Florida. You know, I've at times regretted it because it wasn't too long after that that all my peers went off to the desert, and most of my peers retired as 06s or better.

And I have no doubt that if I'd have taken that 05 rank, that I'd have hit 06 by the time. But I didn't, so there's no, no sense crying over it. But it would have been, you know, a person who spends their whole life preparing to go to war, whether they say so or not, probably wants to go to war and prove themselves. And so I kind of wish I had stayed in and gone there, but I didn't know that at the time, you know. So it is what it is. I went on and started a business, and that's— that was 30 years ago.

And so your business was basically, if I remember right here, it was making waterproof bags for dive operations.

Well, it was making scuba bags. When I first retired, I wanted to do an import-export business, but I never could get any traction on it. And then someone, since I was a diver, I knew dive people, and someone asked me if I could make scuba bags. And I was already going to Asia you know, sourcing and doing other stuff. So I just learned everything I could about making Cuba bags, and we made them. When we started out designing them here in the States and making them in Asia, and then in 2007, with numerous requests for U.S.-made stuff, I decided to form the U.S. operation. So we, we built a factory, or we opened a factory here in the States You know, and now we make what's called berry amendment, or, you know, military bags and stuff, along with other commercial bags. But we started out making scuba bags. That's, that's what we did. And we, at one time, we were, you know, one of the leaders in the industry in making good, tough bags.

So you have— I mean, tell us a little bit about, like, this factory.

It's like a sew shop Essentially, yeah, it's a 10,000-square-foot facility where we have 40, 50 sewing machines. And, you know, we make, we make whatever. We're what's called a job shop, so we make anything other than clothing and large tent structures, something that's too big for us. But we make cases, covers, bags, everything from little mesh bags for the medical industry to rolling luggage and big stuff. We make the fuel splash guards for the F-22 fighter squadrons. We make the wheel covers for those same F-22s and We make other gear bags for military. We make parachute recovery bags that are primarily— they're specifically designed to get wet parachutes out of the water from MEROPS. So when you jump into the water, you're— by the time you get back to shore, all the water is drained off. So those are purchased by special operations people, some foreign countries. NASA has bought some in the past. So yeah, that's the type of thing we make.

And you said there's a commercial side of it as well. Um, like if people wanted to go and see, you know, what the company offers, is there a place they can find you online or elsewhere?

Yeah, our website is americansewing.net, and, uh, basically it's just a representation of the type of things we do so people can see what we do is not Uh, it's not necessarily a website where you can buy stuff. Um, yeah, and in commercial side, if you have a company that's making a widget, you need a case to put that widget in, you call us and we make the— we make the COVID case, whatever, for you. But like I say, we do little mesh bags for Medline, different medical industry things. We, uh Basically anything, anything that's sewn together.

And you also mentioned that, uh, after you retired, you kind of reconnected with your family. Um, what was that like?

Well, about the time I was retiring, they were also retiring from different things, except for my brother who was in Africa. And, you know, it gave us all time to to connect, and then we connected more. My— I hadn't really talked to my dad much in years, and, um, it got a little tedious because he, he was a preacher and he proselytized, and he always wanted to know if I was going to church or not, which of course I wasn't, and that created some tension. So One year, one day on a Saturday evening, he called me up and did not mention any of that one time. All he wanted to do was talk about how my day was going, how the business was going. We had a really great talk and connection. And every Saturday evening to the day he died after that, he would call me and we'd have typical conversation. It was an awesome reconnection with him after so many years.

Yeah, no, that's incredible.

You know, the point is, is if you want to, if you want to connect with parents or children, connect to them on their level. Yeah.

No, good point. And otherwise, how has retirement been treating you? You're still down in the Tampa area?

We do. We still live in Tampa. We still have the business. I'm 72 years old, so I'm ready to retire. A second time. I, I'd much rather spend my time building old Land Rovers.

And you enter those in like, uh, like, like, uh, truck competitions and things like that where they come and join?

Well, yeah, in the Land Rover world, kind of like the Jeep world, you have events where you go riding through the woods, that's cool, the forest, you know, up and down hills and through, through the deepest mud you can find and stuff. So Yeah, I mean, I have some Hanger Queens that I just take to car shows. And then I have one that, you know, is outfitted with snorkels and things like that to go through deep mud and water. I'll take that to those trail events.

And then, you know, I also got to ask, I mean, what was the inspiration that led you to writing this book? I mean, the book is even called The Gray Man. A life lived under the radar, and you, you are kind of that guy. So what inspired you to write the book?

What, what kicked me in the butt to get me going was my, my son, uh, gave me a Christmas present which was a subscription to a company that will send you a question each week and you answer the question, and at at the end of the year they put together a book about your life. Well, right off the bat I realized those questions were nonsense, so I did finish that up, but I ended up writing my own chapters. And when I got done with that, I said, you know, this is— I need to put this in a better format. And, uh, so I rewrote the book and rewrote it a couple times and sent it off for approval a couple times before before I finally got it all approved by the government and stuff. But the whole Gray Man thing, I mean, when you're going through boring— well, first of all, I grew up as a loner in Africa, out hunting by myself and stuff. Then you go to boring school and you're keeping your head low to keep away from bullies and what have you. And then, you know, later on I was a human officer.

I've basically lived my whole life kind of, kind of trying to stay out of the limelight, which was a detriment in my business life because I was not nearly the salesman that I should have been. I just am not, not that outgoing. But yeah, I think Gray Man fits.

And, uh, The book can be found on Amazon. I hope people will go and check it out. And David, is there any other reflections that you have from this, your life experience or your experience writing the book? Anything else that you'd like to talk about?

I don't know. Like I said, I hope people buy the book. I've had I've had good comments. I've been on a couple other podcasts that are more related to missionary kids and, and things like that. But, you know, maybe it'll help someone. It's not really an education on, on anything military. It's just, uh, like I said, it was, it was done— I'm— I did it for a historical reference for my kids and the fact— and then people started saying, well, you need to get this out there more because other people be interested in. And that's why I started doing, you know, Rick Prado encouraged me to do the podcast and get it out there more. So I'm glad he did. I'm enjoying the experience.

And I should also point out to people that your, your book here, this memoir, is filled with pictures. And I mean, some of these pictures, uh, like your dad— I think this was your father doing dentistry in West Africa. I mean, it's just totally surreal.

Um, yeah, my, my father was a, uh, a dentist, uh, you know, and, um, he contracted hepatitis, uh, from working in people's mouths. That's before they knew what AIDS was and stuff. And yeah, he lived many years after that, but eventually, uh, liver cancer killed him. Uh, so he literally gave his life for those people he served over there.

It's amazing. And I think we have one question for you from a viewer.

Yeah, David, for— you had a pretty long business career. What are some lessons learned from throughout owning your own business? And you did mention a little bit about, you know, you're not as outgoing and salesman enough, but any other lessons learned from running a business?

You know, if I had any success, it was because I was, uh, I was always true to my word. I was always honest, uh, um, and people noticed that. And throughout my business career, I had several different occasions where, where important wealthy people asked me to help them, uh, or offered to help my business So yeah, you've got to be reliable. You got to be honest. And if you do that, success will follow.

Definitely. And again, the book is Gray Man: A Life Lived Under the Radar by David Carmichael. We'll have some links down in the description of this podcast and on the video. If you're watching this on YouTube, you can click on it and get to the book that way. And, uh, your website, was it americansewers.net?

American Sewing. American— yeah, americansewing.net.

Okay, we'll have a link to that too. Um, David, thank you for doing this interview and spending some time with us today.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I hope folks will go and check out the book. And thank you everyone who joined us tonight, and we will see you next time. Hey guys, I want to take a moment to tell you about the TeamHouse Podcast newsletter. If you go and subscribe, it's totally free. And what it will do is aggregate all of our data, all of our content that we put out, uh, the things that are on the TeamHouse, on our geopolitics podcast Eyes On, uh, things that I write journalistically with Sean Naylor. On the high side, uh, anything else that we have going on, books we recommend, uh, upcoming guests that we have coming on the show, and also, you know, filtering in some fun stuff in there as well. Um, if you'll go and check it out, we send it out just once a week. We don't want to spam you guys. It's just a kind of roll-up of all of our content on a weekly basis. You can find our newsletter at teamhousepodcast.com/newsletter. Kit.com/join. Again, the website for that is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Uh, so we hope to see you there. The link will be down in the description.