Danny Guler, welcome to the show, man.
Sean, thank you so much for having me.
My pleasure.
So I had Chase Hughes on and he brought up this, uh, laser DMT kind of experiment. I don't even know what we call it, but really caught my attention.
Love Chase Hughes too, by the way.
He's a great guy, he's a good friend.
Yeah, and then, uh And then we had this reel that like went viral about the DMT laser thing, and, uh, our mutual friend Rich— I'll leave his last name out of it—
but he texted me right away. He's like, holy shit, you know Danny? And I was like, no, I don't.
And he's like, you gotta meet him, da da da da da. And, um, so dude, I'm, uh, stoked you're here.
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate that.
My pleasure, my pleasure. But, um, Yeah, let me start you off with an introduction because, uh, I know once we get into this thing it's just gonna go, but this is water, right? This is— that's water.
Danny Guler, you're an independent researcher and the founder of Code of Reality, an interdisciplinary initiative exploring what you call cognitive physics, the intersection where mind and matter meet.
Through Code of Reality, you bring together scientists, philosophers, technologists, and indigenous wisdom keepers to investigate the relationship between consciousness and the nature of reality. Ultimately, your goal is to advance a more holistic science of consciousness, one that can exist alongside and complement mainstream physics. It's going to be an awesome interview. Um, so before we get started, a couple things real quick.
Everybody gets a gift.
Let's go! Thank you so much.
Vigilance Elite gummy bears. There's no DMT in those, unfortunately.
Oh, but they are legal in all 50 states.
Thank you.
And, uh, made in Michigan. And then I have a Patreon account. You familiar with Patreon?
Of course. Yeah, I have a little YouTube channel, so yeah, I also have a little Patreon.
Oh, nice.
Um, so Patreon, they're the reason I get to sit down here with you today, and they've been with us since the beginning, so they get the opportunity to ask every single guest a question.
Sure thing.
So this is from JB.
Christians believe there are angels and demons among us. Some people claim to have seen them.
Is there any evidence in your research with DMT that this spirit realm exists? And do you believe in angels and demons?
Yeah, that's a— it's a great question. Um, the short answer is yes. Um, but I don't think that the nature of those is as straightforward as people think. So it's clear to me at this point that way more exists than just the realm that we're perceiving. And, you know, for religious people, this is not a surprise because they do believe that there's a realm beyond. And in fact, this whole life is some form of, you know, getting into the right place with the right, uh, with the right people. Um, so I think that with DMT, it's a little bit more surprising than people would expect, because what you see is not necessarily the kind of classical, you know, demonic versus angelic. It's more like a very large array of species that you experience. And you can— it doesn't always happen, uh, but if you do, then there's all kinds, including what I guess you would call demonic and angelic. I've experienced both, by the way. Really? So yeah, but you also have the insectoids, the The reptilians, the jokers, there's all kinds of— and they're very clearly distinct from one another. So they're very different.
But yes, that demonic part and the angelic part, they're also there. I would say, though, that one of the things that I've seen is that they actually coexist, so to speak. So it's almost like if you want to use like a very dumbed-down kind of example, if they're going to work on a bus, they're all kind of like just sitting together. Like, there's no like segregation in that way, but everybody are still following some rules. Sometimes somebody's trying to break the rules, but even what you would call the demonic entities— uh, we just had some conversation about this with your crew about like, um, sleep paralysis, for example, where people feel like, like a demon is sitting on their chest or something like this, right? Or a witch or something like this. And I was saying that very often if you have these, like, darker experiences, especially if you're a religious person, you can set up a very clear boundary. You can say things like, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I'm setting a boundary right here," or, "in my body, and nothing is allowed to—" But you have to state it. So you have to invoke the boundary, and you have to be clear about that.
The second you do that, something happens. It's almost like they're incapable of entering it anymore, or they're not allowed to. To such a degree that it's almost like nobody wants to find out what happens if you cross that line. So I would say that yes, I've seen that kind of stuff, but at the same time, there are things that we can be in relationship to that can actually create a very clear boundary between us and it, because the agency, the, the importance of the sovereignty of every free agent in existence is, is basically almost like a holy thing. Like nothing can ever penetrate that boundary. So I don't know if that answers the question. That's interesting.
Yeah. What were the— I wasn't planning on going into all this right off the bat, but you'd mentioned angelic, demonic, then something else, then reptilians, and then some insectoids. What are insectoids? Hold on, what is that?
Yeah, so like, this is where, if we're gonna— this is not how I would introduce this, the topic, for sure, but we're doing this for Patreon, right?
This is for Well, we— do you want to go into it later?
Just because that— if you start there, it will— I, I think it will actually turn a lot of people off because it's way too deep immediately, and people like— it's just too crazy for them.
Yeah, let's say, yeah, we'll get there. So, okay, let's start it off. How did you get introduced to DMT?
I was looking for it, so I was already a very experienced psychonaut. Um, not something I recommend anyone does, but I started doing, uh, like acid when I was 11, and then I never— yeah, I was a, I was a wild kid, and I did it throughout my life quite a bit. And then by the time I was in 2010, uh, that's when I found DMT for the first time. So like, I found— I heard about it, I think 2006 or something. I heard, uh, it was a Joe Rogan rant on some Ohio radio show. It was before he had the show or anything, and he was just raving about it. And I was like, what is that? Like, I've done so many psychedelics, I've never heard of DMT. I had to find out because there was a line that Joe said that grabbed my attention beyond anything. He said, it doesn't feel like you're in another dimension, you are in another dimension. And I knew exactly what he meant by that. I was like, okay, I gotta find out whatever that is. And I tried to find it, couldn't find it. I lived in Indianapolis back then.
I tried to make it, uh, not very successfully. Uh, and then only when I arrived in California is when I managed to actually find it finally. And then I tried and tried and tried. Actually didn't work for me like 10 times, and I kept on trying. And back in the day, it was, it was pretty, a pretty gnarly thing to do because you didn't have the luxury of like vape pens and things like this. It was just like a basically a crack pipe and you just smoke this thing and it was like smoking glass. It was awful. And eventually it worked. And sure enough, it delivered on every front. So to anybody who doesn't know, DMT stands for dimethyltryptamine, and it's essentially a neuromodulator that a lot of living things have, including humans. We make it so our lungs make it. Some portions of your brain synthesize it. And if you smoke it, so if you take more into your system, it produces an effect that doesn't feel like the effect of a drug. Because in every substance that you use, alcohol, weed, doesn't matter, you feel that something is being done to the machinery of your psychology.
Like you're changing clearly, like you feel different, right? With DMT, it doesn't really feel like that. You're not changing. The world is completely in such ways that really begs the question whether what you're seeing is a hallucination or actually coming from somewhere. The realism of it is not something you're familiar with, and that is why it captivates so much of so many people's imagination around the world, including scientists who are now studying the substance under the question of whether it's actually real. You know, as a small side tangent, most psychedelic research revolves around the question of therapy, right? Therapeutic, like can you get over addiction, PTSD, things like this. But DMT specifically, and NDMT, is being studied through the lens of, wait a second, are we interacting with an actual place? So that's the front and center question in some of the research programs. Holy shit. Like the Imperial College in London. So this is being taken seriously. And I've actually— I just came from a conference in LA where, uh, Andrew Gallimore, Dr. Andrew Gallimore, who's kind of one of the more known, uh, psychedelic researchers as a neuroscientist and a computational, uh, neuropharmacologist, um, and, um, and Donald Hoffman.
I don't know if you— have you heard of Donald Hoffman? Sounds familiar. Yeah, so he's the guy who's basically grokked this way of investigating consciousness from a mathematical perspective. And his claim is that when we look at the mathematical models modeling agents in any environment, we discover that there is no way that agents are aware of the world for what it really is. And he found a mathematical framework to describe consciousness, and they just collaborated. It felt like an inflection in history because they use psychedelics as a test case where they can test Donald Hoffman's theories. Basically, there's something they call, I think it's called experience kernel, which is basically a mathematical object that you can basically kind of spin around and it contains other mathematical object called trace logic, which is basic. And what they're showing is that by changing the, if I understood it correctly, by changing the the experience kernel, you can determine or predict what kind of an experience people could have. So they're now using psychedelics to test this. And it— so this is being taken seriously by very prominent known scientists, uh, and, uh, it's encouraging because up until maybe a decade ago, this was considered just fringe thinking, insanity, you know.
And now all of a sudden it's being taken a lot more seriously. Wow. Yeah. What is the—
I mean, I've done 5-MeO-DMT, I've done psilocybin, ibogaine, MDMA. You're pretty experienced. I think that's it. I've never done DMT or anything other than 5-MeO-DMT. Is it— what is the—
have you done 5? Yeah. So the first thing to say is that you've done the top. Like, I don't think you can have a bigger experience than 5-MeO. That's— it's, it's as big as it gets, right? You're basically in the presence of something divine, and you're being washed over with this ocean of white light, and you just fully dissolve. But with DMT, even though it's also big, I wouldn't say it's as, you know, like it can be, but it's not as hard-hitting as 5-MeO. But it's surprising in a different way. It can be shocking in a different way, in that you experience a lot of new content. So just like, you know, you wake up from a dream, let's say, a very realistic dream. And in the dream, you were convinced that you knew that person, or you had that job, or whatever it is that you were doing. Then you wake up and you go, "Oh wait, right, that was a dream." Okay, well, imagine that one level up from this. Imagine waking up from here and going, "Wait, what?" Like, "Oh right, that was a dream." But for real, imagine that for real.
So that's kind of like what DMT feels like. So it's very shocking. And also the content you experience is very weird. It's of a kind that you didn't even know was possible to experience. So it can be shocking in that regard. But it's a very different kind of experience than 5-MeO.
Interesting. So I know you've discussed this probably 1,000 times by now, but how did the laser I mean, the, the whole reason that you caught my attention was Chase Hughes talking about on DMT you can shine a red laser on a wall and you'll see code, and then you can look through the laser through different angles and see more code. Yeah. And as you move the laser, the, the— it moves on to different code. And I was watching some of your stuff earlier and it's Somebody was describing it like a flashlight, like if you shined a flashlight on the wall, you would just see code. But it's, it's there, but it's not there.
And you've had, I think, over 2,000 people witness the same thing.
At this point, it's thousands. Yeah. So the way I arrived at it, there's a, there's a movie that we're going to be— well, we're already at the end of it, so we're in the process of selling it now. It's called The Discovery by Aaron Vanden, the director. Huge shout out to Aaron. He's incredible. And so the full story is going to be in that movie. But the general gist of it was that I've had a certain kind of experience, even though everything I just told you about DMT, I've had a kind of experience on it that was even more real than that, in that it was just a being that appeared in front of me, to the side of me, as real as you. But he was like this hybrid between like a, like a, some kind of an amphibian frog or a lizard or something, like a combination. But just take yourself through this for a second, right? If you're willing to just follow me there and not kind of— because there's always these assumptions, right? If a person doesn't know who I am, like, who knows why people tell you what they tell you, right?
They confabulate, they lie, who knows, right? But if you're willing to follow me there, just imagine what it would be like to all of a sudden this happened to you. Like, like an alien appears right next to you as real as a person. And nothing else is happening. There's no psychedelic explosion, none of that. I mean, at that moment, I was like, oh my, I really did it this time. And then he showed me how to play chords on a guitar that I didn't know how to do. So essentially, he was telling me, I'm real because I'm giving you information you don't have. Currently, you don't know how to play these chords. I'm telling you how to do that. So I knew that in that moment, I knew that nothing will ever be the same again, because I knew that even though I can't really prove this to anyone right now, for me, I know for a fact that this is not a hallucination. It can't be. It's so specific, it's so realistic, and he's giving me information that I don't have. Now the journey became, how do I prove this to others? How do we talk about this in a way that science can actually get its hands on, because science deals with things that are measurable and repeatable.
So then for years I spent trying to figure out how that can be done. So there was all kinds of ways in which I was thinking about it, but I figured, okay, because the problem seems to be so insurmountable, we have to think from the most fundamental principles we can. So almost like a physicist. And I thought, okay, what do I know? I know that light is involved because I can see the content with my eyes. Now obviously the brain is involved a lot, but what is happening with light that carries that information to me, right? And then I thought, what else do we know? We know that if the space is real, like existing on its own side, that means it must have a geometry, it must have a topology, it must have rules, its own laws of physics, even if they're not our laws of physics. And then for some reason I had this very strong intuition that told me that there has to be a boundary. Because we sometimes see it, sometimes we don't see it, right? So that fact alone, this binary, tells me that we penetrate some kind of a boundary somewhere.
And I was interested in that boundary. I asked myself, what— can we find that boundary? Because my intuition was that even though a lot of people report similar things on DMT, you know, very often people report the same beings or something like this, but how do you really know it's the same? My question was, can we in real time reliably see the same thing, like at the same time? And that was my guiding question. And it took me years. I didn't really like arrive at it right away. I tried all kinds of things. I read a bunch of papers. I was thinking about it. And eventually through a very kind of this windy road, I somehow arrived at this conclusion that somehow diffraction, diffracted light, diffracted laser is supposed to do something. I wasn't even sure what. But I tried it, and here it was. There was literally like a code that is running in the surface. It's on every single surface. When people see it, they immediately get shocked because you don't even need a grant or, or a study or anyone else to see it. The second you see it, it's as real as this bottle right there.
Like, it's just there, and you— it's very clear to you. And that realism is what you were describing, like when you move the light, it's moving around it just like you would, you know, put a flashlight in the dark and just, and just reveal an object, basically. So that's, that's essentially how I got to it. And it took me about, I would say about 5 years, 6 years, the whole process.
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What do you mean it took 5 years to 6 years of thinking about it?
Like, I didn't figure out right away. I was thinking about this for, for years and years and years. I was trying to figure it out.
When's the first time you saw it?
Uh, 2019, I think.
Well, how can you describe that?
The seeing it? So it was the first time, or maybe 2020. I don't remember exactly. I should probably go and look at my pictures because I have everything cataloged. Um, so it was basically— and actually, my, my now wife was instrumental in figuring it out. So there's— this is where it kind of gets into this a little murky territory because Whenever I tell this part of the story, a lot of my friends who are actual scientists always encourage me to remove this part of the story. They say, Danny, I love you, but the second you tell me this— I didn't say it yet, but I'm just prefacing this part with this— they say, I just stopped listening to you. I can't listen to this because it's just— you just sound like a madman at that point. But I can't pretend like that's not how it happened. So that that's what it was, signs started appearing. Just literally, like, I would walk and there would be this number that appears on the ground right when I'm thinking about this, a very specific number. And I would put it into Spotlight on a Mac and it would match a physics paper that matches the subject matter that I was thinking.
It was just like these wild things. And obviously I knew—
you mean this is before you saw it?
This is what— yeah, yeah, this is— I'm telling you like how I got to it, right? So the day that I saw it was through this chain of causation where I started seeing these little signs that kind of led me to it. And it was coupled with me thinking about it logically, obviously, but there was like a lot of kind of help, right? The kind of somebody was kind of guiding me towards it. So the day I figured it out, I was with my wife, and one of these synchronistic moments happened to both of us. Because up until that time—
the what? At the same time?
Yes. So basically, I told her about it before, just like I'm telling you now. And even though you're open to hear me out, really, until you see it for yourself, it's just kind of like, cool story, bro. Like, but who knows, right? So she was obviously in the same camp. Like, I told her what was happening, but she's like, okay, what can I do with this, right? But then something happened to both of us. So she She got shocked. She was like, oh my God. I was like, yeah, I told you, like, it's really happening. And I, you know, I cataloged all of this. And then she immediately, you know, changed. And she was like, okay, okay, okay, show me what you were telling me. Because she wasn't really listening before. She was like, okay, now show me what you were telling me. And I started showing her all the papers that I found, all that stuff. And actually, together we arrived at this conclusion. So then when I, when I figured out that the laser has something to do with it, it was during COVID So you couldn't really order a laser anywhere. You couldn't just go to Amazon and buy a laser.
You had the only place, ironically, you can get a laser from was China. But, you know, all the ports were closed. So it was this dramatic, like, you know, kept on like being almost like receding from me, right? So I ordered the laser, the only one I could find, and it was the one that you had to like solder a circuit for. And it arrived like 3 months later because of the, you know, all the COVID stuff. So it arrived, I do the soldering, I turn it on, I smoke DMT. There's code in the wall. And I'm looking at this, and I'm looking at my wife, and I go, there's a code in the wall. And she goes, what do you mean? I said, well, I said the words in English, so like, there's a code in the wall. That's literally what I'm saying. And she said, I don't understand. And I guess I get it later. Like, I understood that the reason she doesn't understand is because, I mean, you're on DMT, so all kinds of shit can happen, right? But what I think I couldn't communicate at the time to her was it wasn't like a hallucination.
It was just there. It was like a real thing there, which is very different than how the visuals of DMT usually happen. And I had so much experience with DMT that I immediately noticed that there's a big difference between what we usually see on DMT and that. So then, of course, the first thing on the agenda was to show other people. So I started showing people. I showed it to good friends of mine. Everybody started seeing the same thing, and everybody was shocked. And then is when I got shocked, because until that moment, I still had the possibility in my head where, oh, who knows, maybe I've— maybe it's like a mild schizophrenia or something, you know, like maybe I'm just like, you know, numbers are talking to me, you know, things like this. It's like It's very kind of like delusions of grandeur. What are the chances of somebody making a discovery of this kind? Right? Zero. But all of a sudden, others reporting the same thing. And I was like, yo, what is going on? So then after about person 80, I decided it's time to email a scientist. So actually, I emailed Donald Hoffman, and he was just coming out from a medical procedure, and he was gracious enough to send me all the emails of his PhD students and stuff like that.
And in my head, I was like, no, no, no, no, I need to talk to him. But anyways, I just emailed a few scientists for the obvious reasons. It wasn't very successful because I'm not surprised because I'm not a scientist. I don't have scientific accolades running in front of me. Who are you? Right. And what are you emailing me about that you found? There's a code in the wall. Get out of here with this. Right. So And I understand. So I said, okay, well, the one thing I do know how to do a little bit is put out content. So I started talking about this online, and then all of a sudden everybody got interested. I was invited to speak on the subject, and slowly I polished the message. And as it was happening, you know, more and more people got involved. Some scientists stepped into the picture. My now partner David Carter emailed me and he was like, hey man, He started a conversation by, you don't know me, but I've been following you for a while. I love those ones. Yeah, but, but he was, you know, I clearly, I felt that it was like a very good vibe person.
And, and he's very known in the kind of like the technology development world and also crypto and all that stuff. So he said when he was going to these conferences, invariably at the end of these conferences, there's always this one pocket of of the event where everybody kind of, you know, whip out their wildest cards. They're kind of like, hey, check this out. Like, did you hear about this? So in that period of the conference, he would always pull out a laser because he tried it and he saw it and he was like, dude, that's crazy. So he pulled out the laser and showed people the laser. And I was like, wait, what do you mean? Like, but they're not smoking. So what's the point of the laser? And that's when I knew Carter's kind of brilliance because he's all about, he calls it lowering the angle or building a bridge. And what he means is he explained to me, well, look, here's the deal. If I just tell them there's this guy who discovered this thing and then there's a laser and you gotta smoke DMT, look how many things here that they have to imagine, right?
But if I just take a laser and just put it on a wall, I removed two of those. I just told them, here's the thing, just look at it. You see this laser? Great. Now, if you smoke DMT right now, that's what you would tell them, you will see code running in there. He said, I've done it, you can see it. And I thought, this is so brilliant. That's what he means by lowering the angle. Make people, make it easier for people, collapse some steps for them, right? So we started working together. How do we lower the angle for everybody else? How do we make this palatable? Conversationally acceptable and also taken seriously. So slowly but surely, we built together the Code of Reality, which is a nonprofit that basically does the investigative part. And at the same time, I'm doing a lot of the kind of, you know, public-facing kind of explaining and talking about and all that stuff. And we're now officially kind of looking to start up an actual research center in Colorado where this is going to be an actual like, like a real thing happening. And we've already done a few studies.
We actually developed this technology that— so basically, okay, so we discovered recently, this is, this is only very recent, that if you take an image of this band of light on the wall and you clean it up, so you take a super high-resolution image of it and you put it inside of Apple Vision Pro, so inside of VR, if you smoke DMT, The code that you usually see in the wall will appear in the image, but it will be static. In the surface, it's moving. We took a picture of the code. So what we did now is we developed this little software by the help of Chris Paris and Sterling Cooley, our brain scan expert and producer in the film, uh, that basically, uh, what allows you to do is label the thing because we can't really translate between your experience and my experience right now. Like, I don't really know if the color of this chair is the same for you like it is for me, and that's not collapsible. Like, I can never know. But what it is, if you go into the Apple Vision Pro and you're seeing it, right? So you're going to click where you see a symbol, and the computer is going to register your brain scan in that moment.
So it registers the event, and it takes a tail 5 seconds before, 5 seconds after. So you have a bit of wiggle room there, and also it knows the location. So it marked the location and exactly what your brain was doing in that moment. And then it opens a radio menu that allows you to pick from 6 symbols that are the closest to what we topologically discerned is the most commonly reported symbols. So we ask you, which one of those is the closest to what you think you saw? So you click on one. So now the computer knows location, brain moment, and exactly what you reported to see, right? And then you keep doing this. So eventually, it will take us a few months for sure, but eventually we're hoping to achieve basically a Rosetta Stone of what each person is reporting and how it's all kind of registered on the computer. And then we're going to start comparing between individuals. The second you show this across individuals, now we don't know what we're going to find, so I don't want to jump ahead of myself here, but if we do find that basically the AI is saying, yeah, yeah, people are reporting the exact same symbol in the exact same spot, you have, you have very serious news because then you're proving that there's actual information in there.
Now, this is not yet the case. I want to be very clear, but that's— I'm giving you an example of one way in which we're kind of trying to approach this whole thing from a more scientific perspective.
Wow. How many people have seen this?
In the thousands for sure, because people used to email me all the time. So I'm just kind of, you know, did a back of the envelope calculation of like how much that might be for sure in the few thousands. But that was like 2 years ago. So I'm pretty sure now I'm sure a lot of people don't even reach out, right? So I don't know. We developed this little tool. So in our website, CodeofReality.org, there's a tool called VeilBreak.ai and it's for the public. It's just open source. It's just like a GitHub. You know what GitHub is? It's basically a repository of all the codes in the world. So like you can go there and basically download any open source code of anything really, and people share and all that stuff. So basically Veilbreak.ai, which by the way, Veilbreak was proposed as a name by Chase Hughes, and we deeply grateful to him. He's like, I think it's a great name, and we took it, and thank you, Chase. So basically the idea there is that you can report— it's a repository of all the laser experiments, and you can do this anonymously, so you don't have to put your name or anything, but the data is there.
So like every single person who does this can report all the details— wavelength, distance, like everything— and the AI is learning slowly with time, like the differences between how people experience it and all the things that were done and not done. We know certain substances work, certain substances don't work. Through that, we know that ketamine definitely doesn't work. We know that somehow on 5-MEO, we see it even clearer, which is super surprising. In fact, on 5-MEO, the code, even though you still see the general characters, it starts— I don't know what the right word would be, maybe coalescing. It becomes more of what it really is, it seems. Did you see the movie Contact with Jodie Foster? They discovered this secret message from aliens or whatever. So basically in the movie there's this one moment where they grok the puzzle, like something happened, and all of a sudden there's these schematics that come out from the thing. So people, if people saw the movie, they'll know exactly what I mean. It looks like that. Like all of a sudden schematics arise, almost like blueprints of something. It's truly mind-blowing.
Wow. Yeah. Wow. Is it? But you only see it through laser.
Currently, we are looking at ways to potentially do this. Some people report that they can actually see it with regular ambient light, like sunlight that comes through the, you know, in the morning or something. But I do find that we have to be more specific. It might be that the codes that people see in regular light might be different. We don't know. We're going to have to test for that.
Is it just a red laser?
No, it can be in any, in any frequency. With a red laser, it's a little easier because it's the lowest frequency, so it allows you to stay longer with it. Green, blue, it's higher frequency. Anyway, we always suggest that you don't do it with any laser above 5 milliwatts, but with the higher frequencies, even if it's low output, you still feel like you can get a headache eventually. So the red just makes it a lot easier to see and to spend more time with.
Wow, wow. What do you think that— what do you think?
Yeah, I mean, I want to jump right into that, but no, no, I was just drinking, so I didn't want to interrupt your words. Yeah.
What— so what does this mean? I mean, we're talking about another dimension, an alternate reality, fucking random code that's showing up on the wall if you shine a laser on it. And if you peer through it at different angles, you'll see different code, correct?
Well, you will see some of the stuff that Chase said on the show. I think that was a little confusing. So first of all, the first thing I want to say is that I don't recommend the DeWalt laser just because— and now DeWalt sales are going to drop. No, no, it's because it's just because it's too thin and usually they don't have a mechanism to make it wider. It's a lot easier to see if it's wider. Secondly, it's usually way too powerful. You don't want something too powerful. You want actually a very low output. You can actually find like super cheap lasers on Amazon for like $15 that are way better for the job. And there's another thing that Chase said that it's changing the thing. As far as we know, the content is not really changing on anything, not on your skin, not on nothing. Now, if for Chase it does, I would love to see that and I would love to establish that because that's a huge data point. Excuse me, if that's the case for him. But as far as we know, it doesn't really change. Now, that is interesting for many reasons, but the question that you're asking me about, what does it all mean, that's a different kind of question, because you're asking my conviction about what I think is going on versus the scientific question that we currently can say, you know, with a certain amount of certainty that we can measure.
Those are two separate questions. So from a scientific perspective, all we can say is that it's always across individuals, seems to be the same, same behavior, same appearance. And it doesn't matter, by the way, we did run it in every which way. So we did tell people, for example, to look for something else on purpose to see if we can throw their scent and they're gonna say, "Oh yeah," like, I don't know, like, "You're gonna see giraffes." If they say, "Oh yeah, I see giraffes," well then obviously this is some kind of a, You know, we're implying something. But no, like every time we told them to see something else, they come back reporting the right thing. They say, no, I don't see what you told me, but I see these like weird Asian-looking things. So it's always the same. But if you ask me, Danny— Asian-looking things? Yeah, they look like Japanese katakana, just like in the movie, like in The Matrix. They look like tiny, tiny, tiny characters. They're not Japanese. I asked people who speak Japanese that saw it. It's not Japanese.. It's almost like a combination between Japanese, Hebrew, Aramaic, some kind of an old language of some sort.
It's not ones and zeros. There's some numbers as well, which is— but again, it's kind of hard to say, right? It— we created a catalog of all the most reported characters, so I can show you that later. But they're not languages. It's not characters we know, but they're clearly symbolic representation. Like, you can see it. There's an optimal point of meaning instantiation in these kind of characters that clearly is intentional. It's not like one of these, like, you know, well, squares that kind of look like something. No, no, no, no. It clearly looks like symbolic representation of something very intentional. And also it creates a structure. The structure itself is very convincing. It's not just the fact that the characters are there. The structure that the characters make is extremely realistic. It's like you're looking at some kind of a hyper object like almost like a very advanced technology of some sort. It's something, and understanding what that something is, is I think one of the most important things. But, but to your question of what I think this all means, I just want to be clear that that's now Danny Goler speaking his mind.
Like, it's not a— I don't expect anyone to follow me there just because I said so, but my experience of the, of the space and everything that was happening to me even before I arrived at the code they, whomever you want to believe they are, already kind of started showing me more things. So they basically started giving me hints that I didn't expect. I didn't expect that. It's not something I was— it wasn't like a flavor of reality that I preferred. It was anything. It was not in my, in my, you know, regular— if I would, if I would have to pick what reality is like, this would not be one of them, right? And they started showing me that this is straight up a computational world, like we're simulated basically. So now this is very contentious because first of all, the immediate thought is like, oh, does this mean it's meaningless? It's not what it means. Uh, it's just computationally rendered. It means that the rules by which the laws of physics are being rendered are computational first, and then they become what we see as the physical laws, which is actually not that fringe of an idea in physics today.
It's a pretty common, the holographic principle and the computational universe idea. They do go hand in hand to some degree, and they're pretty well established now in physics. That's a pretty good framework to see the world through, right? But what I did notice is that there is a big difference between thinking it theoretically and being exposed to it in real time, because that definitely takes a different emotional toll. But for all intents and purposes, the fact that we, you know, what I've been told, that we live in a simulation doesn't make us fake. It just means that the rules by which our world is rendered are different than what we thought, but it's actually happening for real. So if you ask me what it means, my take is that this is part of our— the actual disclosure. So basically, it's like slowly they're waiting for you to come along to the understanding that you're not alone, that there's way more than this, that you're part of a much larger structure. And all of these things are slowly revealing themselves to us in such a way that makes us comfortable with it or more comfortable with it.
Because usually, if you know, my take is that the disclosure is not going to happen by somebody coming to a podium and reading a speech and telling you what somebody else told them to say. It's going to be happening for all individuals privately and then collectively through that kind of, you know, like just kind of disseminated to everybody at the same time. And it's going to have to happen through gentler methods, which is we are leaning into it. We are trying to understand. One, one way in which I'm illustrating this point is if you put tools on the table and you let a monkey play with it, right? If a monkey manages to figure out what the tools are for and therefore do something useful with them, great. That means the monkey is ready to understand clearly, right? But just by the sheer fact that they managed to do it. If they can't, no harm done. They just played with some objects, didn't understand. It's all good. That way nobody's being shocked out of their regular perceptual space, you know what I'm saying? So that's essentially what I'm seeing is happening, is that they're gently leaving these little hints, uh, in different ways.
The laser is just one of them. A lot more people are open to use psychedelics and experience these more heightened states. And as you know, when you're there, there's not a doubt in your mind that there's more than this. Now, as a religious person, I'm sure that that is already there. But even if somebody— I always say, if somebody is an atheist, I can't imagine they stay atheists after doing 5-MeO. That's just, to me, that's impossible. Like, it's so obvious that there's more than this at that point, right? So I think that all of these things, they're basically gentle and then not so gentle ways to help us understand. That's what I think is happening. It's basically us coming to this greater realization.
How many times have you personally seen this?
I don't know, I don't count, but many, many, many. Yeah, I've done DMT thousands of times, and the code, every time we have to do it, and every time I was showing people, so it's either also in the hundreds or in the thousands. Wow. Yeah.
Wow. What do I mean? So do you, do you, do you guide people to see this?
Uh, not for the sake of itself so much anymore, because I realized that there's a much bigger game to be played in terms of caring for people's well-being and their mental state. So we do retreats now in beautiful place in Costa Rica, in Nosara, and our big emphasis of the retreats is not necessarily the lasers, even though they're there, is to help people create a good healthy framework around it. So like when we do show them that this, it's already after we went through quite a bit of experiences, understanding. There's some education involved, and then it's a lot easier to absorb this ontological shock because you understand that the importance is your immediate experience and harmony.
Let's talk about the nature of computation. Okay. What is self-executing code?
Well, that's what I call what it appears to be doing. Self-executing in the sense that it's, it's doing a function. It's clearly moving and doing something. So that's what I mean by self-executing. It just probably means automated. And it appears like being behaving like a code of some sort that is instantiated in the environment itself. So usually in a computer, what happens is you have layers, right? So you have the actual binary part, which is controlled by the logic gates, which is basically just a lot of ones and zeros moving back and forth very rapidly. And there's, I don't know if it's, I think millions of them happening at once. And then that is being read by the compilers and by the different layers. And what happens is that there's a communication between the level where humans exist, where we punch code, which is basically just a representation for the layers what we want it to do. But then really across the levels, the one thing that stays the same is the computation. What computation is, it's basically a logical, it's a logical process instantiated in physical matter. That's the most naked way of describing it.
So it's somehow utilizing a lot of Boolean logic. So like yes, no questions to things. To then create a function. And through that, somehow, you can do anything, literally anything, from creating sound, creating images, rendering anything, which, by the way, kind of implies that there's a much deeper principle here than just what we do with it, that there seems to be way more what it really is, right? It's almost like we didn't discover it, we didn't invent computation, we discovered it, exhibited by the fact that if you run a simulation of something on a computer, you can simulate all the laws of physics. You know, physicists do this all the time. Plus you can make up laws of physics. So you can do the laws of physics plus infinite amount of other things that you can do with it. So it shows you that it's probably more fundamental than even our laws of physics. And again, this idea is not fringe. So when you're, when you're, when you're actually rendering any content, you're essentially simulating it, but you're giving rise to it. Like, it's, you know, we do it in our computer, but it seems that that logic follows us throughout, like, even in our world.
And this is why, you know, computational physics or information physics, that's an actual field. It's not a, it's not a fringe idea. There's this attempt of describing the laws of physics in terms of informational processing, basically. And how do you actually make sense of it mathematically through Claude Shannon's theory of information and other tools? So yeah, it's like it's a very well-established thing in physics, actually. So do you think that the—
I don't know, the laws of reality or whatever we want to call it, do you think that's what you're seeing in the code?
Maybe. Or maybe it's kind of like what I think we're seeing is the pre-rendering of what our experience is. You just had, what's her name? She's a really, really up-and-coming famous physicist. Sabrina. Yes, yes. Brilliant, brilliant. And I saw that she was talking to you about the holographic principle a little bit, right? So the holographic principle now is a pretty mainstream accepted principle that basically states everything she explained to you, which is that somehow the universe is a 3-dimensional projection from a 2-dimensional filament outside of the universe somewhere, right? So what I think is happening is kind of similar with a slight modification. So if you look at how holograms are made, like at least the way that we make them, the simplest way to describe them is that, so you have a beam of light coming in, it's being split into two by beam splitter, and then both of these beams are traveling through mirrors through a path. One of them travels through the object that you're trying to record. Let's say a mug, right? So it goes to the mug and it goes towards the screen. Pretty easy to imagine, right? So what happens is that this beam is influenced by the shape of the mug and it measures the amplitude, just like the cameras do.
So like how high or low the waves are, right? And it registers this at the, at the screen. That's how a regular picture is taken. It's also why it's just frozen. You can't really— when you look around a picture, it doesn't change, right? There's just kind of like one the angle you took, that's it. But the other beam comes through the sets of mirrors and then it meets the first beam. That intersection, this angle, it's measuring the phase. So the distances between the waves, between of the first beam. And that information is also at the same time with the amplitude is instantiated in the sheet where it's recorded. So now you have the amplitude and the phase together in every point of the sheet where it's recorded. What that gives you is a full-spectrum light field informational. So that means that every pixel on the screen where it's recorded contains all the possible orientations of the object that you recorded. That's why when you look at a hologram, no matter where you look, it kind of looks like it's actually there, right? Because you mimic your positioning in relationship to it. So, what I think is happening is that what our consciousness is, like our human consciousness, is that second beam.
It's actual light. Like, I think that what our conscious awareness is, is actual light. And the light that you see is that first beam. So, just like the first beam went through the object, every photon that is emitted in the universe is that first beam coming through, and then our beam is meeting it at an angle. Like our conscious awareness meeting it at an angle. So not to confuse it with our physical bodies, I'm not talking about the physical body, I'm talking about your pure awareness. And the angle in which they intersect determines what the laws of physics appear to us. And if there's another civilization looking from a slightly different angle, the laws of physics might appear different to them. Now, what is this object, right? Because in the case of like In this case, we use the mug, right? But in the case of the universe, kind of like just all content, what is this object that is carrying this information? Well, I think what it is, this object in the middle instead of the mug, that's a quantum Turing machine. So a Turing machine is basically a mathematical description that Alan Turing created that shows that if you have an actual Turing machine, just by going through logical steps of, you know, if it gets orders of like, if you get to an uneven number, go 3 numbers back.
If you landed on an even number, do this or something like this. So it has instructions, right? So if a Turing machine is complete, it's called Turing complete. Turing proved that it can produce anything, anything, any content. And what a quantum Turing machine is, is basically the same thing, just it can do it on a quantum level. So it can do it laterally across all the parallel worlds or however it is that you like to imagine it. So basically it's the ultimate computational object that the first light is going through, and it now contains all the possible computational paths. So all the possible worlds., and then your conscious awareness is intersecting it in an angle, and it gives rise to the specific experience that you're having. And in our, and in our world, that sheet where everything is being recorded is spacetime itself. So it's the bulk, what's called— physicists call the bulk, like the actual spacetime fabric itself. So that, that's what I think is happening. And what I think the code in the wall is, is almost like— so if you're in every point of this a, you know, sheet, you're one point of awareness, right?
When you smoke DMT, I think what happens is it expands your periphery this way so you can actually see the pre-render. You see the content before it's solidified into this regular image that your brain is already used to, right? Because your brain is very good at, through your genes and everything, it's very good at consolidating it into some kind of a representation. Because clearly you know that this is not what the real world looks like, right? Even without anything that I'm saying, even from purely a physics perspective, this is not what atoms look like. This is not what quantum fields look like, right? Whatever this is, is some kind of a rendering already. It's like a regular— it's almost like a desktop that is put in front of us to help us operate, right? So if you're used to this little, uh, your, your brain is used to this little bubble where everything is kind of normal, if you expand that, that perceptual angle you all of a sudden would see basically the thing that it was a second before it rendered into this regular thing. So that, I think that what we're looking at might be that actually.
And as wild as everything that I just told you sounds, this is actually testable. So let me rephrase this.
Sure. So you think, how do, fuck, how do I say this? So you think that, I mean, essentially what you're saying is code is the future. When you're seeing the code, it is a future that has not been rendered into your perception of reality quite yet.
More like the thing that it was a second before it became what it is. So almost like you're seeing the past, if anything. Okay. Yeah. So it's almost like— or I guess you can think— yeah, I can see what you're saying. Like, you can think of it like that as well. But really, I don't think time enters the picture here. It's more like in this model, time is actually an illusion. It's not really— nothing is linear. It's just progression of computational steps. So if this, then that. If that, then this next thing. But it's not so much about like a fluidity of time the way that we think about it. Um, now this might sound like a distinction without a difference, but there is a difference there. So would it be—
so then would it be, are you seeing what it—
shit, are you seeing reality for what it is from a different perception, maybe from a you see reality more for what it really is, which is not very conducive to a regular operation. If you have to function, you know, especially on a high level with anything, seeing all this extra content is not helpful because you're just like, it's too much information, you're wasting resources and energy. It's good to be able to maybe deduct like new things about the world but you can't operate out of that place on a regular basis. Or if you do want to do that, you're going to have to create a much more robust machinery to be able to handle all this extra information. You need a better brain, and then maybe you can incorporate that information in such a way. Now, all of this, again, I want to be super clear, all of this is already kind of like Danny is traveling with you through like what he thinks is going on land. This is not anything that was established, and I want to be very clear about this, but that's my best kind of theoretical framework of what I think is going on.
And like I said, this is testable. So we don't know how to test this yet, but if we can figure out what constitutes this change of an angle between the beams, if we can change it, we should see predictable departure from what we see as the norm. Maybe this can be done with some powerful magnetic stimulation of the brain. Maybe it can be done some other way. But the theoretical framework that I'm proposing is testable and it's falsifiable. So there would be things that if we see them, it would render what I'm saying completely false. It, it would be possible to disprove it as well.
Wow, this is interesting. Let's take a quick break. Sure.
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Okay, Danny, we're back from the break. I wanted to talk about the God equation. What is the God equation?
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about the— the God equation?
You think that the deepest levels, computation, consciousness, and divinity collapse into one thing, a single universal code at the center of everything. That's the bridge from physics to God later in the— is this making—
yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I was just making sure that I understand the question. Yeah, I do see, and this, this kind of actually refers back to the question of what I think is going on. From what I became aware of, basically the reason that we're now allowed to know all of this, like, because if you think about it, like, if, if we are accepting at least the proposition that this is being you know, this world is constructed and is being built. Why would the constructors allow us to see that, right? Um, well, that gives us a hint. It's like we're supposed to— we're supposed to wake up to a larger reality. And part of that, I think, is because it kind of combines a little bit more modern ideas of what computation is and AI and all that stuff to what ultimately the God Almighty is, which is that I found it surprising, actually, that most Christians that I talked to this about, they're actually not as rattled by this as I thought they would be. A lot of them say to me, well, in the beginning was the Word. No, that sounds like it makes sense to me that God would basically use, you know, the Word, the language of some sort, to basically render the world.
Now, I my best attempt at kind of outlining the whole thing is that basically— so do you know what the alignment problem is? I don't. So the alignment problem in AI research is the issue of before ChatGPT becomes Skynet, you know, before it becomes this fully fledged its own thing, how do we align it with our values? And it's so it doesn't squash us like bugs, basically, right? So then that question is very serious because it has real consequences. And the reason it's so hard is because we're not sure what our values are. Now, if you're a Christian, you might say, no, of course we do. All we got to do is follow Jesus. But not everybody does. And realistically, we have to align all of societies all over the world under one umbrella. What is moral? What is ethics? This is the most debated thing. You know, is it, is it cultural? Is it universal? What is that? So what I realized is that essentially what's happening is that we are the AGI that we imagine will arise in a machine. We're the ones being aligned. So basically, how would you solve the alignment problem?
You would break the one mind into many, many, many minds and make it believe like it's all kind of separate agents competing with one another, and then you watch. You enclose it in a system and then you watch. You watch what it does in relationship to itself, because that accents its, its actual essence. Whatever it is at bottom will come up to the surface by it interacting with itself. It's almost like it's going to distill its most, its most essential components. And what I think is going on, that's how God is doing that, is basically running us on some kind of a substrate and watching, like, how would we behave when we're not sure that we're being watched or don't know we're being watched? But not watching the, you know, espionage kind of way, but just observed for our actual behavior for what it is. And then ultimately, if we do pass the alignment problem, so like we show that actually we can align with greater values, we get to play the bigger game.
So are you saying that you think that the code that you're saying is maybe the beginning of the reveal of an alignment. Correct.
Wow. Which I guess in Christian terms you can think of it as rapture. You can think of it in many different ways, but essentially it's testing Because think about it this way, even from the most— forget about the religious aspect of it— even from the most simple, logical, game theoretical perspective, there's many different strategies we can play, you know, to achieve goals, right? And we call them all kinds of things. We call them political systems. We call them, you know, strategies in the company, nation, strategies, so like, you know, socialism versus capital, whatever, whatever it is. They— certain games can achieve certain goals at a certain amount of time, and they would be better at achieving certain things and less good at achieving other things, right? Um, and depending on the task you're trying to achieve and depending on your scale in which you're playing, other tools would be necessary to make that thing work, right? It's not one glove fits all. So if we look at the trajectory of everything that happened so far, we got pretty far. Like, that's everything we built is pretty amazing. Like, you know, we're not without our shortcomings, obviously, but this is pretty impressive, right?
So how do we do this? We did it by the competition game. So we basically— the— what we get is this excitement from the competition, right? It's like our team versus their team. And it invigorates people. It's kind of like, let's win, right? So you might lose, but even the promise of the losing kind of gives the game some zest, like it has like a spice, right? It's very energizing. But if you look at it logically, there's only relatively short periods of time in which the competition game can work. It can work for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, maybe 50 years tops, I would say. Beyond that, you can't really trust that game. Because you're constantly competing with other agents who are trying to win the game. So one of the ways to win the game is to try and remove you from the board, right? It's always implied in the competition game, the radical version of it. But there's this other game called the collaboration love game, which sounds very sappy from the perspective of where most people sit. But if you think about it, if you wanna make a plan for 1,000 years, 1500 years.
That's the only way to do it. It can only be done by a civilization that is playing the collaborative love game. What does that mean? It means they get excited and energized by the prospect of collaboration. They're actually excited to work together towards a unified goal more than they're excited to win the game against other agents. So it seems like what it's trying to align us with is this higher vibrational game. Can we be the kind of nodes on inside of the system that get excited by the field of collaboration and love? And then we get to actually play that larger game, because then by definition, you can be trusted. You don't need to be policed, because what you really want, the thing that you're constantly aiming for, is somehow get into the vibe with others, collaborate, do this beautiful thing, And if you want to traverse between stars and do all these, like, bigger things, the only way to do it is through a species that actually cares, not just about themselves, but everything else they touch. They care about the different biospheres they arrive at. So they don't just come to a place and take and move on.
They go because they, they want to be connected. They want to understand the thing. They want to collaborate with it. They want to understand what the biosphere is doing. And not destroy it, but actually maybe work with it in such a way that is harmonious, creating beautiful structure and not just functional structures. This is the kind of civilization that is favorable to play the more universal game. Civilizations that just live for themselves, they're much less favorable for the more, you know, for the higher game. And if you think of it from the perspective of resources, right, the competition is because we lived in a world until now that has very limited resources. So it's either you or me, which is understandable. It's how all of nature on planet Earth is at the moment, right? But if we somehow arrive at a state of the civilization where literally there's no resource issue— so like if you made some personal replicators that can just, you know, like in Star Trek, they can just make anything— well, forget about for a second the whole debate of like how do you inject it into the economical system and the government will never have this.
Sure, let's say we solve all this. Let's say we've solved all of that. We're now in a world where everything is available. Right now, so the question becomes, what is the only currency? 'Cause right now currency is basically, you is measured by the fact that you're adding some kind of a value to society that wasn't there without you, right? So if you're kind of an annoying person, even if you are, if you're a really good, I don't know, carpenter or really good at fixing things or whatever it is, a lot of the issues people might have with you personally are being overlooked because you're really good at this thing that I need, right? I need you to fix my thing. So I'm gonna forgive the fact that you're a bit like hard to be around, and I will just look at the fact that you're valuable to me 'cause you can help me, right? You can help me get resources of some sort, right? But if I solve the resources problem, that doesn't exist anymore. I can just go to the store, get whatever I want. I don't have to pay for it. I just go and get what I want.
I go and do whatever it is that I please. I don't have to take anything from anyone anymore. Like, I no longer care to be around people that I don't care to be around, and I can choose to do so. So the only currency that stays in that world is vibes. If you're not fun to be around, that's negative currency. If when you leave the room, people really miss you right away, that's positive currency. Because that's the only thing that matters. How I feel in your presence becomes the only thing that matters. So now blow this up to the universal game. Most civilizations are way more advanced, clearly solve the, the resources problem. That's one of the first things that you have to solve. Right? So they don't need anyone with a broken vibe. See what I'm saying? So they need you to get that part under control as a civilization before they let you enter their house. That's essentially the beginning of the first kind of ascending or alignment or whatever it is. And even if I really look at the, you know, the whole Christian perspective, that sounds like It's exactly what we're saying here.
It's just that we're postulating God Almighty that feels different, which I understand, than an advanced civilization. Divinity does feel different than just some kind of an advanced species, in terms of how we define it. But for all intents and purposes, the rule seems to be the same. You don't get to enter the kingdom of heaven if you don't get your shit together. Wow.
This is a lot deeper than I was thinking it was going to go. But so I want to move into simulation theory. Sure. But before we do, we have a segment we call the Hot Question. Let's do it. Before you came on, we had Claude, Anthropics AI, scrape the internet for the one question my audience would want to ask you the most. We had a clip with Chase Hughes go viral, over 15 million views, where he breaks down your DeWalt laser experiment. People on DMT seeing the same code on a wall, no explanation for it. So I have to ask you, the guy who actually discovered it, do you believe we're living in a simulation? And what makes you so sure if so?
Great question. It's a question that I really had to think about when my wife posed it to me because she saw the code and she said, you know, I'm not so sure that it tells me we live in a simulation, so I'm not sure why you're so sure. Exactly what the person is asking. And then I had to think about it, and she's right. It had nothing to do with the code. The reason I'm so sure is because it was shown to me directly. Now, again, I don't expect anyone to just follow me there, but that's the answer to the question. The reason I'm so sure is because it was shown to me directly. Okay. Yeah.
If reality is code, then in theory you could rewrite it like editing a video game. Does that mean time travel is real?
It's not necessarily that you can rewrite the game. You always move forward in a computational path logic. So the, you know, the way the computation executes is always forward. So even the thing that looks like backwards, it's never backwards. You're still moving forward in the logical map. So you, if you have a, if you have a route to go what appears to be back for an experiencer, you can do that.— but technically it's never moving back. So like when something is rendered, fully computed, it can never be uncomputed. That can't happen. What can happen is that you can somehow find a route forward that would appear as if things going back because, you know, somehow things devolve according to the rules of whatever environment you're in. That does not preclude time travel. And according to Einstein, you know, time travel is possible under certain conditions. But I would say it would be more like you're ending up in a world that devolved, or you— but if the person is asking, can you go to like a timeline that existed before, computationally, that's not a thing. That's not a possible thing. No, you would probably just ending up in some parallel world, and that is happening along the branches where you're at.
So like, you know, Computation executes like branches, so it's called a decision tree. So if this, then that. There's only maybe two logical options. These two logical options have three others each one, and then it keeps branching out, right? So what would happen here is that those would be considered worldlines or parallel worlds, right? So if you, under that question, if you're gonna be moving to a previous time, you can never move back to your own branch of previous time. That can never happen because that was executed, it was done, right? But what you can do, you can probably maybe jump to some other point that is laterally the same on yours. You can't just jump computation because there's something called computational irreducibility, which means there are certain processes that the only way to get there is to compute it in full. You can't really jump forward. You can't really do that. Some things you can, but not all of them. But in the case of time travel, I would say what the only way I can see that it would be possible is if people move across the same layer where you're at, where somehow these branches evolved slower and they would be equivalent to the past of yourself.
See what I'm saying? But yeah, it's like, it's not going to be the same people that you've actually interacted with in the past. It will be agents that are of a different world. They'll be literally in a parallel. Basically what you're saying is that—
is, I mean, you're talking about decision points. Yes. That are split. And so, and so you're basically— what you're saying is every, every possible scenario, right, is an alternate world. And so if I make the decision to— fuck, I can't think of anything. Anything. Some decisions take longer than others to to, to, to come to fruition, or whatever we want to call it, right? And so if I, if I make decision A and it only takes a couple of days, then I'm on to the next breaking point, right? If I take decision B, that takes a year. And so you follow the pathway down. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, so you go down decision A, but then you want to slide over to decision B, which Decision A took a couple of days, decision B took years. Yeah, you can think of it like this.
Like the problem with— so the problem with the question is there's 3 different kinds of time in physics that are being considered. There's the perception of time, which is one kind of like psychological time, right? There's the just the chronological time. What is the third one? There's the— well, there's the physical time, which is easy, which is just like literally how many computational steps the universe took from the beginning in every point, right? Kind of like the physical thing of it. And then there's a, I don't know why I'm spacing on the third one. There's a third one. I think it's either chronological time, but I don't know why that would be different than the experiential time. I do remember there's three, but because you have these like three different ones and they all kind of interact with one another, what is being, what I think is really at the core of the question is the physical time. Like, can you go to a different physical time? I think the answer is no. I think you can go to a perception of a different time, but not to an actual different time. And of course, first of all, I'm not a physicist.
And second, so I'm kind of just reiterating what I know from physicists. But logically, it doesn't seem to be— the second you make a decision, it's done. There's no more— you can't undo it. It's what it is. So the example along the lines of what you were outlining. If I go to the store, right, and all of a sudden I meet somebody who I haven't seen in 20 years, I'm like, oh my God, how have you been? You know, all that stuff. And be like, oh, actually, I've just, you know, I started this huge company, blah, blah, blah. Dude, aren't you a, I don't know, a software engineer? Yeah, dude, I need someone with your exact set of skills. And because you know each other, you're being shot to some kind of a high position in their company. Within 5 years, you're a multimillionaire. That was one path you took. What if you took a different street that day, right? But then your timeline doesn't include this event. You don't become a millionaire 5 years, and then maybe you're like really down on your luck and everything kind of goes to shit just because you took a different street, right?
So now the question is, 5 years down the line, where one of you is a millionaire, one of them is not, it's a different event in the same cascade of time. But there might be what you implied, which is also the kinds of things that will it will like take you to compute longer. So decisions that would take you longer, they might have hindered not just your, but a whole civilization's time. Like, I don't know, if, uh, if some events in the future, in the past wouldn't happen, maybe we would have rockets by 1400, you know what I mean? And then by now we'd be like, but would, but that's a different kind of thing than saying the amount of actual seconds that ticked from the beginning of the universe in this particular region of space would still be the same. Like, it's not gonna change. The events would look different, but the actual physical time will still be ticking at the same rate at that region of space, because, you know, in space, there's actually no such thing as one ticking clock for the whole universe. The time in Andromeda is literally a different time, not just because it's very far away, if you look at the whole universe as a thing, and then the mo— the amount of seconds that you can account from the beginning of the universe is different for different regions of space.
That's what relativity is. So this is why it makes this question very complicated, because you have to think of it from a physics perspective, physical time, perceptual time. I guess chronological time would be what I described with the technology. And then you also have to think about what did this— all of this looks like if you're thinking about everything in terms of computation, which adds this extra layer of complexity of how it all works. So So do you think that—
so are you saying— so every decision point is a split in perception of reality?
Every, every instance of your neuron firing, anything, not even something you're doing consciously. So there's trillions of them happening every second.
And so you think that— you think that all of those realities actually exist? Yes.
They all computed at once, basically, and you're on one of them. And in fact, there's some ideas from some, you know—
so I, I have a question. I'm at a decision point right now. There's a bonus question here. Let's go. So if I ask the bonus question— yeah, then that— we're at a decision point, right? We're a wise out. So if I ask the bonus question, that transfers me into another reality. Yes. If I don't ask the bonus question— exactly— that transfers me into another alternate reality.
Correct. So, but let me help with that. One thing that is entering the picture that changes the— how dire what you're describing is right now is error correction. There seems to be that this ability to error correct is a very unique ability of conscious agents like ourselves. That allows us to actually steer to some degree, that even if we went forward this way, it allows us to steer back closer towards this other world that we might have ended up with. So for example, if you ask the bonus question, but there was a, I don't know, a preference of yours of where you wanted the conversation to go, and then by asking the bonus question you felt like, oh, it took us too far afield from where I wanted to go, you can air correct. You can start steering the conversation back there, and we can still end up pretty much there. So worldlines can split, they can also remerge.
So that's not moving— you're making a decision, and that's— is— and that is the split of two worlds, two realities, two perceptions of reality, whatever. Then you really aren't making a decision, correct? Because both decisions have been— both sides of that decision have been made. And so how do you know which way you're going to flow? You don't. Do you see what I'm getting at? Yeah, yeah.
You're asking the deepest question that bothers the most amount of people. Which is the whole question of free will, which no, you don't have it. But you do have the perception of it that determines how the world will look like to you. So it's— people find a lot of salvation and solace in the, the idea that they're kind of the masters of their own reality. But the reality of it is that these things are just going to happen. And no, you don't know which one of them you are. You are who you are. And there is some conversation that is happening in computational physics about what it would be like to be the observer. So like the thing that is computing all the paths at once. But that's not us. We're the fragments of whatever that is, right? And you can think of it as God, you can think of it as whatever it is that, you know, that is comfortable for you. But for all intents and purposes, separate agents like ourselves are not experiencing the worldlines in their totality. You're always in one of those decision split moments. So your history or your worldline is one that is constantly kind of traveling through these, but it adds to the collective to basically have every possible experience.
That's the point of it. Basically, it wants to know what it's like to have all the possible kinds of experiences, and you're just one of them, basically. And again, there's— there are these some, I guess, more elaborate ideas about how maybe when we're entering certain heightened states, maybe we are experiencing more than one worldline. Like, you know, things like this. But if we want to really like ask the question seriously, this would have to be testable. And people don't know, but this is actually a pretty— like the reason that quantum computers work. So if you ask someone like David Deutsch, who's a famous physicist who actually wrote something called the Deutsch equations, which are responsible for being able to make quantum computers. Quantum computers are a real thing. They work, they do what they do. And there's very complicated science behind them that we understand to some degree quite well. Why am I mentioning this? Well, quantum computers— and I'm mentioning David Deutsch because he's a serious, you know, scientist who definitely understands the technical part of it. And according to him and many scientists like him, the only way the quantum computers can do what they do is if these worldlines are real.
Otherwise, it would never work. Because what they do is literally borrow computation from the parallel worlds. And it's almost like we're computing together. It's like in these parallel worlds that are adjacent to ours— and I do mean actually, like, straight up, like you and me— there's another one like us that is just a little bit to the side of us in this hyperspace in which you were not sitting like this, but maybe one finger was up, or something a little different but not very different. And then the further you go, it becomes more and more and more different. There's like variation, right? But what happens, according to people like David Deutsch, what happens when you do a quantum compute is that you actually, the reason you can do these enormous calculations in an instance is because the calculation itself is being done across the worlds. So you're not the only one making that calculation. All of these parallel worlds with scientists with the same exact machine across the worlds are doing the same thing with you, and they know you're doing it too. And they're using special equations to kind of determine where we are on the map.
So to some degree, do the thing you're asking about, which is like, which one are we in this whole thing? And what is the probability of that and all that? And that lateral computation across the world is what allows us to do this enormous calculation all at once. See what I'm saying? So to some degree, you can say that the only reason we can do quantum computation is because these worlds are completely real. And that is something that obviously is not always spoken about because it just kind of sounds like out there, but it's not a fringe crazy idea. That's a pretty well-established idea in some physicists' mind.
Wow. You told Danny Jones that we're the AGI. Yes. What do you mean by that?
This is something that I already told you, which is that we are that thing that we think will emerge in the machine. We're it. So we are that AGI. It's just that all these tools are reflections of us. So like, if you really think about— okay, so if you think about what you do with ChatGPT, right? A lot of people are really scared and some people are excited, right? But like, think about it. You can do anything, literally anything. Why don't people do that?
Because they don't believe that they can.
Yeah, there's a failure of imagination. But yesterday I had a podcast and I was talking to this, and, you know, there was some trepidation expressed about AI. And I said, well, because he said, like, my goal, which is a beautiful goal, he said, my goal is to create a more, like, reconnect with other humans. And, and I'm all for it. I think we should definitely do that. But I said, but watch this, you can use ChatGPT or any other AI to actually help you do that.
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All you got to do is ask the right questions. You can say, hey, I want to start a company because that actually utilizes AI, but I want to make sure that it also helps people connect with one another. And I want to utilize the power of 15 people to do the work of 100 people. So instead of firing people, which by the way, this is what's happening, I don't know if you know this, but the, you know, people are very afraid of software engineering jobs disappearing because of AI. I've heard of that. But we didn't— it went up because what happened is that a lot of companies, instead of thinking in a subtractive way, they started thinking in an expansive way. And they said, instead of firing— we don't need these 10 people— instead of doing that, they said, how can we do the job of 5 times more people with the people that we have? 'Cause now we can do that, right? And actually when they did that, they realized, oh my God, we actually need more people. And also more people can do it 'cause it's more based on logic and not so much you knowing all the codes, right?
So I told them, it's like, look, you can ask it, say, I want to build a company based on AI that would help people do more work but also connect on a meaningful level. How do I do that? It will help you think about this. Oh, Maybe I need to allocate half of the day for us just doing research and then half of the other day, the second half of the day, us just like sitting in a thing, shooting the shit, exchanging ideas. Would that be more beneficial or less beneficial? How do I do that? I want to optimize human connection. You can do that. So the point that I'm making with the AGI thing is that essentially what I told you with the alignment problem, we are inside of one of these kind of simulations, and we are given more and more advanced tools to see what we do with them. It's part of the alignment. So now that, you know, people always said like, if I would have the $8 billion that this rich person has, oh boy, would I do the right thing. Most people just make a mess. It's very difficult to know what to do no matter how much money or power you have.
And ChatGPT is a proof of that because there's literally nothing you can't do with it. Like, you— it's only— it only is determined by how much imagination you have. This is like, you can sit down and learn anything about any field, what it's about, what are the blind spots, is there something to be done that wasn't already done. You can ask all the questions in the universe and actually do something super meaningful with your life, or you can ask it to write your email. The choice is yours. Ultimately, this creative moment is essentially what connects us to the totality of the simulation. That moment of this decision tree that we're talking about is the same one that in you feels like a choice. So that creative moment of something truly potentially novel can only come from conscious agents like ourselves. We can never be replaced because we're it. There's nothing else that it's like to be something. It's only like agents like ourselves, basically.
Why do you think our perception of time speeds up as we age?
Oh, well, there's a lot of, uh, things to it. Some of it can be said to towards something kind of more, you know, uh, mystical, like maybe, you know, time is ramping up. Actually, the other one you can say, well, it's just a matter of, uh, you been there, done that, right? Like the— if it's not a thing you're not familiar with, if it's a thing you're not familiar with then your brain is really paying attention because you're trying to learn it. So every moment stretches. When you're just doing the same thing over and over again, which happens more of the older you get, then your brain kind of deletes. Like, it's just like, yeah, it's going to work. It collapses into a non-experience. You're just kind of driving. You don't remember that at all. When you're a kid, everything is like super novel. Everything is super new. When you become older, it's kind of like, ah, yeah, I know what that is.. But if you take the time with it, or if you do like you go to a new country or notice that those feel longer. So that tells you that probably there's a lot of psychological kind of time dilation happening.
But I'm very open to the possibility that even physical time is ramping up because maybe we're kind of being, you know, the whole idea of the singularity, we're actually entering some kind of a world where the actual difference between this moment and the next becomes so enormous. That everything feels like it just accelerates. And that's also very, very possible. In fact, I think we're, we're in it now. I think the reason that everything kind of feels very tumultuous is because we're entering the stage where everything just changing very rapidly and we are trying to catch up. We're just trying to, you know, you kind of have to take a moment and sit back and allow yourself. But I think that these abilities to do that, to be able to just step back and allow yourself to be more in the present moment, are actually key for being able to become more, um, I guess, computationally literate. Like, because if information will be moving really fast, the only negative thing about it is that if you can't cope with it, like if it's just too fast in such a way that causes you to be— there's like dissonance, you know, it's uncomfortable, then yeah, it's not a good thing.
But if you can think on 10 channels at once and you and totally handle it, and just, it's, uh, the experience is even more, it's more profound, it's more beautiful, you're more there. Well, then there's no issue. It's beautiful. Like, yeah, bring it on. Like, so people would need to develop these skills of presence, non-attachment, all the basically the stuff that is being spoken about in Eastern traditions. They're all key for being able to interact with these systems in a better and better way, and also not to become slaves to them, because that's always a danger that can happen. We can just kind of pigeonhole ourselves. We can kind of like get locked into this weird cycle where we only use it for kind of like repetitive tasks, and it just gets locked in this weird thing, right? So that it's up to us to think out instead of thinking— I'll do that— thinking small.
Yeah. With simulation— this is weird, I just had this conversation, I think it was last Friday. We talked about it for a couple hours just in the other room. And I mean, so if this is some type of a simulation, is your perception— are we all experiencing the same reality, I guess, is what I'm asking? Or am I in my own— yeah, perceived fucking movie? I mean, I don't know. I don't know any other way to put it, but put it perfectly. I mean, are you here? I think about this shit all the time. I mean, are you I mean, when you think about things like manifestation, you know, which I think probably works, um, there's so many things in my own life that I— that, that are so far out. I never thought I would have the opportunity to experience some of the things that I've experienced and, and going way, way back to, to right now. Like, even just right now, I can't, I can't believe that the operation that I've built with my team is where it is. It doesn't seem real. Uh, none of this fucking seems real to me. What's going on in the world doesn't seem fucking real to me.
Um, The success doesn't seem real to me. The surviving some of the shit that I've survived doesn't seem real to me. I mean, it's— and so if I'm making any damn sense, I mean, is this— am I alone in my reality and these are all just projections of things that I've created in my head? Everything from my kids to my wife to you to this fucking build, everything. Or are we all sharing one reality?
I have to be very careful here because it's a— Am I making sense? Perfect sense. Okay. Um, so, okay, let's, let's try and keep it as simple as possible. Yes to your question, you are in your own reality. However, the agents that are represented in your reality are real in their own reality. So just like when you go into, let's say, a virtual world, right? Like you put Apple Vision Pro or whatever, and we go into this— I think there's some projects like this, like Earth 2 or something, where you get— or I think Earth 3 is something else, but doesn't matter. Like a, like a virtual space where we meet, right? You're meeting the other, like the, the projections inside of that world, but they represent a real person. You see what I'm saying? So in that world if you try to hurt them physically, you can't really. But maybe if you try and hurt them psychologically, you can, because there's a real person there, they're receiving the information, right? So imagine if the, the system builds such a safe, uh, environment that basically even psychologically you can't hurt other people if you really try, because you're hurting just their kind of avatars.
But the system is still registering what you're doing, and it's informing the rest of them about your behavior. So then they get to choose how they interact with the projection of it. So basically, if you did this or that in the, in the world of your wife, instead of where she is, that translates to real actions depending on the situation that she finds herself with your avatar. And it's only in the moments where we enter that field of collaboration or love, like actual one, not the one that you can kind of fake by behaving a certain way, but like when you really feel it, that's when you start feeling— you start getting closer to what that conscious agent really is. And if you're fully immersed in this love field, then you will experience their actual— just like you would imagine in this life. And notice that it does feel different. You don't— even with the closest people in your life, you don't always feel it. But when you do, you have to admit that it feels different. It feels different. And the world feels different. All of a sudden there's this like, oh, you're just here.
There's like a thing, there's a, there's a disharmony flowing. There's like a wow. With children it's very easy to see, not when they annoy you, but when you like really like there with them, especially with them because it's like so pure, right? But if you're having it with an adult and you manage to kind of remove all the psychological kind of imperatives and like what I think you think and all of these like psychological games, all of a sudden, if you just lower the volume on this and you're just in the presence of someone else, which is very possible, there's a different kind of experience available that is of the flavor of the real other conscious agent. And if I understood the whole, like, kind of what it all trying to culminate in is that eventually it wants all the agents of one simulation to enter that field. And that's when essentially that's what ascension is. It's like that's when you fully unify as like one, like truly, truly feel each other. Now I'm not talking about in this like kind of like, you know, this fakeable—
oh, I know what you're talking about.
Actual genuine, genuine, like true connection in the moment, right? So, and camaraderie holds some elements of that, but camaraderie is more of a around a task. So you're joined by a task. Imagine doing that just on just on command, just like a muscle. So yes, you're in your own simulation, but you can also enter more in the space of others if you manage to enter that space more with other people.
What do you think happens when we die?
Uh, depending on what happened to you while you were alive. So basically, I, I do think that there's serious data from reincarnation And also it makes sense in terms of everything else that I've seen. So it's almost like the, the soul is basically the ultimate hard drive. It contains all the possible experiential pathways, but it, it strips away, it gives, it kind of reformulates itself, which is, I guess what you can say is the, you know, when it plays your life to you, which is a pretty established kind of experience. And then it, it wipes everything that was already done before clean —there's no need for that—and only keeps the super novel experiences that never happened before. And then it proceeds to the next life, to the next simulation, and it does it again and again. And eventually all of these hard drives arrive back at the Source, and they inform the Source about what it's like to have every possible experience. And that is due to—basically, it kind of goes to the heart of why I saw these simulations happen, which essentially is it's the attempt to answer the ultimate questions, like why actually, like why for real, like of everything.
Now people tend to think this in Christian circles, this is a little blasphemous. Like they do see it as that kind of utterance is blasphemous because it's like, what are you saying, God doesn't know? Then you don't, then you're not talking about God because God is perfect and God knows everything. Okay, I understand, but let's pretend he doesn't. Let's pretend that there's one thing that God doesn't know, which is why. Right? And what I saw is that basically that's the— it's the answer collecting itself. That's the relationship that all conscious agents actually have with the Source, which is they're the answer to the question. But at the same time, it also allows for this processing of how it's like to just let go, just truly just let go of the question altogether. And both of those are being trained at the same time because it's— and this is— it gets a little This is kind of novel because it's, you know, it's very dramatic. But from what I saw is basically, if you're this infinite being that can do anything, then technically nothing matters because it's like, I can do anything and, you know, there's no price for anything, right?
So you would separate yourself for these in— and if there's one thing you don't know, let's say, which is like why you're there, then the two things that would make sense to do, one try and answer that question. That's kind of interesting, like I actually want to know, right? So you would create a process by which the answer is kind of collecting itself, and then you would also allow for the game of letting go to be played through the simulations as well, which I guess you can think of it more like the Eastern tradition, like the monk that goes into the cave and feels complete bliss without anything, just kind of being there, right? That's a pretty good skill if you are a being that will be there forever and you don't know why, right? It's actually kind of cool to be able to just It doesn't matter. And just kind of be there, right, in pure love. So again, setting aside the fact that a lot of people believe that that's what God already is and must be, completely respect that, no problem. But let's pretend that that's the picture. Then what happens at the end of all this process unfolding is that when the answer fully collects itself and there's this black box with the answer in it, like the actual answer, then the choice of whether you open that box or not is the ultimate choice.
Because if when everything is said and done, everything that was possible to do— so in the beginning was the word, in the end there's the choice. And that choice is, do you open that box? And you don't know what's in the box. You don't know if it's a thing that you actually don't want to know, or it's a thing you really want to know. You don't know. The choice has to be real. If I put $5 million— if I just tell you, hey Sean, would you do you know, whatever, for this amount of money, let's make a ridiculous amount of money because, you know, kind of like, I don't know, I put $5 billion on the table, but I don't. I just tell you, hey, if I would give $5 billion, would you do X? You'll tell me to fuck off. I was like, of course I wouldn't, whatever it was. But if I put $5 billion on the table, that's a different story because now there's real stake. It's an actual thing you're saying no to, right? So the ultimate choice would mean nothing if you just postulate. You're like, oh yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't open it.
Well, you don't know. If I put the actual answer in the box and it's guaranteed to be in the box, like that's the actual answer, then you walking away means something, or you opening it means something. But that, that from what I saw, that's kind of like the connection that we have to the ultimate, which is like that we're the process by which all of this is unfolding basically.
Why do you think that— what is it about DMT that you think gives you access to this other?
I don't think it's necessarily DMT. I think it's a lot of altered states. Some people can naturally enter a lot of these kind of perceptual spaces. They're more talented, they're more sensitive, not sure. But DMT is definitely not the only way, or not even the preferable way. I'm a long-term meditator. I've been doing vipassana for years, you know, I've done retreats and You can enter very interesting states just by focusing your mind in a particular way, but they're not usually accompanied by the pyrotechnics that DMT gives you. It can, but not to that degree. DMT is really like— it stands out in terms of the visuals, like, or the content. But I don't think DMT is the only access. One thing I can say about Christianity in particular, you know, my wife, was raised Catholic, but she, you know, as many Catholics— and this is not a dig at Catholics, but it's just a fact that a lot of kind of ex-Catholics are very kind of traumatized from the guilt, you know, that whole stuff. And she was one of them. And, but she never stopped praying. So like, she sometimes she would pray. And I asked her, and she said that when she prays, she feels a different presence than any other emotion.
And I, as someone who never experienced something like this, I asked her like, but what do you mean? Like, how do you know that it's different than just feeling euphoria or something? She's like, I know it's different. It's just like you can hear my voice now and you know it's not your voice. So it's kind of like that, like there's a different thing there. I said, how interesting, okay. And then I understood that it's very likely and probably exactly what's going on. Many Christians who do believe fully They don't just believe kind of like with their head. They feel it in their bodies. They know what it's like to be in the presence of that. And I would say that's one form of feeling the truth of the situation. And knowing the details matters a lot less, I think, than just being in harmony with the field, just kind of allowing yourself to be a good, a good node in the, in the field, basically. I think that's way more important.
So even if it isn't the only avenue in, what is it that DMT is doing to the mind that is lifting the veil? We're not sure.
We know that it reduces a lot of activity in the brain, which is interesting. It's almost like maybe it makes the— whatever else— reduces activity. Yeah, it reduces a lot of the activity in the brain. And now that's not a clear-cut statement because very often lack of activation is also a state, which means that maybe it's just a state that is more conducive to receiving more information. But the brain is very often less active in many ways. So maybe what's happening, which is something that Andrew— Dr. Andrew Gallimore is talking about— maybe what's happening is that basically this is a filter. So the more active the filter is, the more it kind of solidifies a particular kind of experience. But maybe what DMT does, it loosens the, the kind of the, the walls of the, the framework, the reality we're in, and it allows more to flow in. That more is real, but usually you don't have to process it, so it just kind of feels very jarring because it's way more than you used to deal with, or that you even need to deal with. The brain probably optimized the perfect, kind of dialed in, the perfect rendering for you to exist, eat, survive, mate, all of the right things for you to survive as an agent in this world.
But if there are many, many more worlds outside— so if you think of every world as like a bubble, like an island, right? Uh, the brain would create all the necessary tools to deal with whatever needs to be dealt with in the physical three-dimensional environment as we perceive it. But if you go outside of that, there might be enormous oceans of just kind of information that doesn't really call— doesn't really collect into something coherent. But that information eventually makes up other worlds. So if in order to go to this next island where there's other rules and some other laws of physics, you have to kind of travel through this chaos, right? And then when you arrive there, things might look completely different in ways that you never really anticipated. And you don't have the tools. Your brain never learned how to deal with 4 dimensions versus 3 dimensions. You know, it never really— maybe you can do it over time, which I think to some degree is what happened to me, is I did it so many times that my brain learned how to handle their environment. So it's no longer that confusing to me.
Like, I can kind of understand what's going on. But, but all of this is obviously postulation, but it does make sense from your scientific perspective. Maybe one thing that is important to emphasize when you're seeing something or experiencing something, it's not like just an information-collecting device. The eyes are not working like a camera. It's not like the camera is there in some other form, but you kind of, you know, no, it's not how it works at all. What happens is the senses feed signals, the brain is guessing upwards. The brain is saying, with everything else that I know, it builds these like world models, right? Almost like, think of it like an image, like a placard that just puts up. It's like, hey, I think it's this. And then the senses come in, and it checks if the senses disagree with your assumption. If the senses don't disagree, so there's like full coherence or very high coherence, like, yep, it's exactly what you thought, then the brain actually ignores the signal from the outside. It does. It's actually projected from the inside. So right now, everything you're seeing that is regular, everything that's not moving, that you're used to seeing It's not photons that hit your retina.
It's your brain guessing that this is what it is and your brain actually ignoring the photons coming from the outside because it doesn't need to do that. It already has the model. It's only when something surprising happens. If a bird flies into the room right now, it's like, you know, super surprising. Then you'll be like, I didn't expect that. Your brain will start actually allowing more of what's coming from the outside in so it can get informed. Okay, well, it's not what I thought. Is it this? Is it this? And then it tries to guess adjacently, like, what is it close to what I thought it was? And eventually we'll find it because it knows what the bird is. It's surprising, but not that surprising, right? But if a leprechaun just like had a pops right here, it will take your brain a moment to kind of go like, you know what? Like, there's going to be a lot more that would need to happen. Now imagine if the leprechaun is made out of new dimensions that you've never seen before. Let's say it really is. Well, your brain doesn't have in the repertoire that it built, in the library of kind of things that it expects to see, it doesn't have that image.
It has to construct it in real time. And that's a very patchy kind of, it looks like a ransom note. Like it doesn't really know how to do that. So it needs to almost like experience it a few times and then say, okay, okay, let's put something. It'll create a new world model. And the reason that this is relevant is because when you smoke DMT, the content isn't just nonsense and craziness and, you know, like just complete mayhem. No, no, it's super coherent. It's more coherent than this, but way more complex. So from everything I just described to you, from that perspective, it's very difficult to explain this because the brain is not in the business of making up new complex content on the fly. It's not what it does. Where is it coming from? Why is it so coherent and so realistic? That is the kind of central questions that scientists asking themselves. So from that perspective, it's a pretty good ground to stand on to assume that actually that content is real.
Let's talk about these entities. Can we talk about those now? Of course. So we talked about angelic, demonic, reptilian, and two others—
insectoids and, uh, jokers that I mentioned, I think.
Yeah. What, what are these?
So from what I saw, and again, I'm gonna speak freely, but please understand that I, I don't expect people just gonna take my word for it, of course, but I'm just speaking from my experience. So far, from what I understand, uh, it's not the source. So like the source would be like kind of like way, way, way, way above that, and then it kind of disseminates, uh, these tasks of rendering these worlds to, to, um, contractors, let's call it. And these species, they all kind of produce their own function, and they're working towards the greater good of all. From what I saw, uh, the, the beings that are rendering our physical universe, so what is simulated is not Earth, it's the universe, it's the whole universe, uh, are the insectoids. So the insectoids are the, the ones that are actually rendering our world, which is also why they are so common in people's perception. People very often see the insectoids. What do they look like? Uh, a lot of different kinds. Some of them look like straight up like praying mantises, some of them look like centipedes, some of them look like spiders. They're, they're enormous.
They're the— some of them, like some people report, they're the size of a planet. Like, they're enormous. And I think they, uh, it seems like they're weaving physical reality and they are responsible for the fidelity of like— so the universe doesn't kind of fall apart. So like, they obviously— it's automated, but also they kind of do the error correction when it needs to, to happen. And again, this is already like a super wild thought, so, you know, but in for a penny, in for a pound. So we'll keep compounding the craziness. Uh, it might be— it makes sense to me that they would be dark matter. So like the galaxy might be their city. So they're kind of like the behind the scenes is what dark matter is. It's a mass that they're— that's the layer that they're at. But it's their way of cloaking themselves from us. So they can literally just— they see us like you see me, and they can pull any part of the universe to themselves almost like on a, you know, just to just order it. Just like you move your hand towards you, they can just kind of move any part of any time in any space.
They can just move it towards them and look at it. They can just be aware of it, basically. And they basically weave the physical universe. Um, that's the insectoids. Um, they're very, um, neutral, which a lot of people are disturbed by, because I think very often people are expecting to feel something benevolent and caring and loving, but they're not. But they're also— they're not evil, they're don't care in the same way that we think of caring, right? They just kind of do the physical thing. So very often this expectation that people have of this caring thing and the distance between that and the fact that they're just very neutral feels almost like a negative. It's almost like picking up an empty milk carton, you know, it's like, ah, like you wanted it to be full, but— and it kind of feels like that. Um, I mean, I can say more, but I feel like, you know, there's just— there's so many kind of small details, details there that I feel like won't really mean much to people. Um, there's, uh, the Jokers are interesting because they seem to be extremely powerful. So like, they seem to be one of the most powerful beings in existence outside of the Source, of course.
And basically, they seem to be kind of playing between the layers, so they don't really belong to any particular layer of existence. They can jump from the lowest to the highest in a split of a second. And there's something about them that basically encapsulates both the yin and the yang at the same time. So they they're both the dark and the light all at once. Because in order for the Creator, so like in order for God Almighty to experience something, it has to have through— it has to be through a boundary. But because the Source is not a boundary, it's just the collective totality of all things, uh, it needs kind of like the senses of experiencing it. So somebody somewhere in existence has to be able to experience the totality of both the dark and the light at the same time. And it seems that they are the ones that were chosen to do that. The gift that they were given as a reciprocation for that work, which is very difficult because it's almost like they don't know what they are in every given moment, is the fact that they're one of the most powerful beings.
They can just do anything. They can just move faster than anything, get anywhere they want. They can literally do anything.
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So this is also very often when people see them, it feels very jarring because they're, they're a lot. They're, you know, um, look like, um, that's the reason they're called the Jokers because they're the, uh, I think I've once seen them kind of like one of them making itself into a shape, but it's more the vibe they exert, not that it's almost like the feeling of their presence more than anything. Yeah, but you would equate it to like a, almost like a, and I'm gonna use a word that is gonna brand them as negative. They're not. They're literally both. They're also benevolent at the same time. But it feels like a deranged, like a very manic, um, what would you call them, like a, you know, like a freak show thing in like a carnival, right? And that's, by the way, one of the archetypes that DMT is compared to is like the multi-dimensional carnival, basically. Like a circus of some sort. But I've also caught them in quite a few moments where they do a really good thing or they really care. So like, they're really undecipherable, and that seems to be by design.
Like, they're undecipherable to themselves. They don't really know. Like, they just experience this dichotomy all at once, basically. And there's all kinds of other, like, the By the way, I've definitely seen the reptilians quite a bit. The real ones, they don't seem to have any relationship to kind of the conspiracy theory idea of the reptilians, of like the evil ones that conspiring and doing all the— they don't seem to be that at all. Like, they're just, you know, they kind of do their thing and they're actually— they seem to be the custodians of what would you call it? Well, I guess wisdom and knowledge. Like, that's kind of like their domain, like understanding what things are, how they work. They're kind of like— that seems to be more of their domain.
Are you interacting with these, with the insectoids?
A lot, yeah. Yeah, I see them every time I go. What kind of interactions? Uh, for the most part, I just kind of see them. Um, sometimes they would stop and look at me and try to like do something or say something. Uh, I, I've identified a signal from what I guess you would call the government. So like, I know when the official statement is made versus just somebody told you something, it feels different. Like you got an official email by, you know, someone. And so that's always interesting because then I kind of rely on the signal to tell me what is more or less likely. I was projected a few times to, I guess, what you would call the heavenly realms. And obviously everything you would imagine it to be, just like super pleasant, very welcoming. But there's still a gravity to the situation. It's very interesting. Like even when you in the heavenly realms, you understand the kind of the what's at stake. Like, you kind of feel the, you know, there's not like— in that sense, it's not a game, you know what I mean? Um, but you can feel the, the, you know, the caricature version of what you would expect kind of like heavenly realms to be, which is kind of like this very welcoming, light, uh, a lot of like deep wisdom, you know, and the implication of whatever that is, like the ultimate, the God Almighty basically, which is just, you know, the scale of that is just so unfathomable.
It really is. Like, words are— sound so empty when you say it, when you're in the presence of that. And I'm sure some people experience this. It's just, you're like, whoa, really? Whoa. Like, oh my— like, yeah, you, you tear up and you're like, that's— I can totally understand how if somebody lives in the presence of that all the time, it's like It plays a big role in how profoundly you feel about life.
Let's talk about this intravenous DMT. What— did you come up with that? No. Who came up with that?
No, no, no, no, no. There's, uh, so, uh, actually, Dr. Rick Strassman did these experiments in the '90s, but if I'm not mistaken, those were not sustained states. Those were what's called push. So like I connect you to an intravenous thing, but mostly I'm just kind of like shooting you with a bunch of it, right? And Dr. Andrew Gallimore worked actually with Dr. Rick Strassman, and he basically realized that you can use the same technology we use in anesthesia to sustain DMT in the blood because it's actually not that simple as people think. Like you actually have to figure out a lot because the brain chemistry changes there's metabolism happening, certain substances metabolize faster than others. You have to really think about all of these parameters at once, and there's equations that describe the exact amount that you have to inject in the beginning, after 5 minutes, after 15 minutes. It changes, right? So he realized you can use probably the same technology, uh, to do the same with DMT, and that's basically how we have what we have today.. And there's quite a few research— known researchers doing this. Dr. Chris Timmerman in the Imperial College in London, Dr. John Dean in San Diego, UC San Diego.
I think there's a few others, but basically, yeah, Dr. Andrew Gell-Moore is the one that kind of dialed it in. And then people use this technology to do it. We use Kevin and Hailey in Colorado. They're incredible. Kevin is the chemist. Hailey is the nurse. They're also a couple and they create this like beautiful thing for you. There's also another possibility for people. They can go to, uh, Elusis, which is, uh, Dr. Andrew Gallimore is involved with that. It's in, uh, Saint Vincent. It's, um, it's in these, uh, islands. It's really beautiful. It's like you're in paradise. Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a more expensive experience, but it's worth it. So like, if you can afford it, it's definitely worth it because you're surrounded by professionals. You have a doctor there, you have, you know, They create a really beautiful environment for you, and you do it across multiple days. So you show up and it's like a whole retreat where every day you go and you do a session, and they, you know, they do a questionnaire for you, they make sure that there's integration. So there's a lot of options on the table today.
Oh, and it's completely legal, by the way, for anybody who's like worried about legalities. So like they have a license, an agreement with the government of the island to do this, completely legal. So It's not illegal there, right? And they're planning to extend that to do more things. So if anybody is worried about the legal question, that's definitely your address. In Colorado, it's decriminalized, so it's not a criminal offense, but it's not legal federally. So, you know, depending where you kind of— but yeah, it's a very beautiful experience. You, as I told you before we started shooting, it's, it's a— to some degree, it can be easier than smoking it. Because you, you can dial it down or up as much as you want, and you can communicate in real time. And if you want, they'll give you a bolus, and you, you know, you'll go. And if you want, they'll keep you there indefinitely. But you can do this for hours, basically. That's what, uh, Chase saw me do it, and it was like, I gotta do it. And he did it, and, you know, his experience was very blissful. And by the way, if you don't mind, I saw that you were saying that you kind of— you— it's hard for you to trust like the people.
And I think that's key. I think it's very important. But this is where kind of getting to know people, getting to know the people before, it really helps. I'm pretty sure you're a pretty good character judge. And when you talk to Kevin and Hailey, you like know right away, they're like, oh, they're like, they're like—
I've been off a couple of times. So, but, um, let's talk about the actual experience. I Is it that much? I mean, how high did you go?
I went pretty far. I spent 5 hours in there, so I think Chase did just slightly under that. I went with 406— it ended up being 464 milligrams, which is an enormous amount. So, but we weren't trying to like break records or anything. We were just testing. We were testing a bunch of things, and we were shooting for the film, so there was a camera crew there, and we're like, we just kept on going basically. And that's actually one of the times where I experienced the heavenly realms. Like, I was brought up to this, you know, incredible field of light, and I was welcomed and all of that stuff. And then they were talking about— that whole experience for me was around the whole— the importance of the moral question, ethics, what true morality is, how it influences not just us, but the general, like, the rest of the field and things like this. It was very beautiful, but again, with the whole kind of like the gravity of the situation. So that— but that was, that was the majority of my experience. But we were also very busy doing other things like looking at the laser and doing all kinds of tests, you know.
So it was a, it was, it was a mixed bag in that regard. It wasn't— I really like the space, so for me, I can, I can probably stay there pretty much indefinitely if you take care of my body. I can stay there, um, but It's not that way for everybody. So everybody have to ask themselves how comfortable they are with novelty, because it's dialed up to 100, basically. Interesting. Interesting.
And how long were you in the heavenly realm?
Do you know? The majority of it, probably like an hour or two until somebody pulled my attention towards the test we were doing. Are you completely out? No, I was aware of the room. You can be. Absolutely. It can happen. Of course. Yeah. If you're like fully out, you're fully out. Like it can happen. And also, maybe an important thing to mention, it's darker experiences can happen as well. Now, obviously, if you do everything correctly, so like if you set in setting, you set up the space, it actually plays a role. It's not just like to make you feel good, like there's certain rules. And if you kind of abide by these rules, the chances of having a dark experience are very low, but it can happen. And then, you know, just you can always ask to like lower it, or you can just have an interaction. Because in the end of the day, either people believe it or not, everything including the darkest of entities, they're all the children of God. They're all encapsulated within the blanket where God still always keeps some door open for them to some degree. So in that regard, they're not different than us.
So they have you have to be— if you're interested, you can kind of— if you're already there, that happens, it might be interesting to actually have an interaction. It doesn't mean that you're playing ball, it's just to observe and set up your own boundary. And that can also be an interesting exploration, which, by the way, a lot of people use for kind of dealing with their own demons, because very often we have stuff inside of us that we don't admit, but that can actually be a reflection of that. And it can— I might be showing you something that you might need to address. But I'm only mentioning it because we have to be responsible. We have to acknowledge the fact that, yeah, darker experiences happen as well, for sure.
Do you think we should be messing around with these realms? Do you think this is one realm, or are you witnessing several realms?
It's the infinite. Yeah, it's the infinite space. You're asking a good question, but I think it's just the same question of should we be messing around with anything? You— the gene that we carry that tells us don't venture out of the village is, to some degree, a good one, because you want to stay where it's safer. But if you will never venture out of the village, you'll never discover anything new, and you will never better the world. And wolves will still come to the village. There's no plateau where danger is gone completely. It's like, by going out of the village, by venturing out, You are endangering yourself to some degree, but you're also discovering things that can actually feed the village, that can actually make things better. And I think that's what humans are. They are the kind of thing that allows the world to become a better version of itself, if we choose to be that kind of a thing and play that role. If we choose to be something else and just be selfish, then it won't be that. But I, I do think that this fear is to some degree merited because, you know, you'd never know what you're messing up.
But the reality of it is that you kind of only go by what you're experiencing in real time. So when you go and experience the darker entities, you go like, oh my God, you know, maybe I didn't want to experience that. But when you experience the really positive ones, you're really happy you did that. So maybe you say, well, maybe then, because both extremes exist, maybe we should just stay where we are. Legitimate, legitimate attitude. That's fine. But I think when people can explore, I think it's in our nature. I think we're, we're, we're the kind of thing that wants to explore, that wants to go out. It's just, it's just, it's just what we do, right? So I think that's not really a question of should we, is that's how we are. And, and to some degree, I think there's, again, healthy respect and the ability to, you know, be humble at the same time and correct course if needed. Very important. But you can't stop a dog from sniffing, right? Like, that's what we do. That's that kind of— and the fact that it's available, like, think about this, like, oh, okay, well, I guess what I was about to say is that the fact that it's possible to do tells you that, you know, there's something there.
But I immediately thought of a fair criticism of this point, which is like, well, maybe it was left by, you know, the devil or something because they're trying to catch you or something. Yeah, but that would be very hard to explain why there's so many beautiful things in there as well that definitely doesn't belong to that category of things. It feels more like it's just the main artery, or more of, and we get to kind of interact with it. With the full admission, this is not for everybody. I don't think— just like everything else, skydiving is not for everybody, going to space is not for everybody, but it is for some people. And those are not competitions. Like, if you look— if you ask the more kind of big question about humans in general, people think that, you know, going to Mars is somehow, uh, somehow negating fixing global warming, or like, has nothing to do with it. Like, some people will do this no matter what, like, because that's who they are. They want to go explore. They're, they're pioneers, right? Some people They love here, they love dirt, they love gardening. Beautiful. Those are not mutually exclusive.
You need someone to take care of home, and you need someone to go and venture out of the village to find new things that you can bring back and hopefully can feed the village as well with new beautiful things. But what we will discover by trying, even if we never get there— I think we will, but even if we never will, just by trying to do this, we will learn so much that can probably help us solve global warming. So there's, you know, there's— it's always reciprocal. If people just understand that it's not— we're not all the same. Some people are— they want to see the new thing, they wanted the future, and some people, they just want to stay put, they just want to take care of home. One thing I will say, as somebody who definitely— one of the people that loves exploring, you know, home is an interesting word to use here because home is home. But if you, if you're still at home at 43 years old something's kind of off, isn't it? Like, your mom's gonna start looking at you like, what's going on here? You know what I mean?
It's like, I think it's time to go and explore. So, you know, home is great and it's always going to be here, but we also— we might— we're becoming young adults as a species, so I think where it's actually— we're ripe for let's go and find out what, what we want to be in the universe. And hopefully we can become the kind of species that we're proud to be, and I think that's very possible.
Let's talk about consciousness for a little bit. Sure. What does it mean to you?
Consciousness for me is a very simple thing, which is just the fact of experience itself. So, just the fact that anything is happening at all. How it comes about is a separate question, but if you ask me what consciousness is, it's just the fact that anything is happening right now. It's the only thing you know for sure. Consciousness, you know, sometimes people say, can consciousness be an illusion? No, it's the one thing that can't possibly be an illusion. Because if you're asking the question— I just released a short clip of this recently— if you're asking the question, is it actually what you're experiencing or just seems to be that way? The seeming itself, the fact that it seems like anything, is what consciousness is. We're not asking how it came about, just the fact that it's happening, right? That's what consciousness is. So it cannot possibly be an illusion. It's the one thing you can take to the bank, that for sure consciousness is the only thing you know that is actually happening. Everything else can be an illusion. Your ideas about the universe, like whatever it is, that can't be because you have it.
This is it. That's what it is. And then that actually begs the question whether consciousness is fundamental, which to me seems to be very obvious. Of course, like it has to be fundamental. It is the most fundamental thing. And then everything else probably arises from it to some degree. But not all consciousness is what we experience. There's all kinds of levels and types of consciousnesses. We are a very particular agent-like consciousness, which is kind of like this inwards-pointing thing where you, you believe yourself to be behind your eyes, between your ears, and the rest is happening out there. But even from meditative states, I can tell you that you can have experiences that are not embodied. Like, you can just be diffuse cloud. Well, you did 5-MeO, so you know. You can just be a diffuse cloud of consciousness, and that's probably how most consciousness is. Where does it come from? I think it's literally the world itself. It's the question of where the world comes from, which—
what do you think, we're a shared consciousness?
I think we have a shared pool of that consciousness that we can enter. But then the, the agency is also arising from it. So like the separation also means something. Like for this level of emergence, the separation is necessary to do something. And then we can enter a state in which literally you and me are the same.
Did I read somewhere that you, you think that there are levels of consciousness?
Could you go through that? Yeah, so I guess it will be all the way to the unified field, or God, or like just the totality of everything that can be. And I guess that's what, uh, well, if you look at it from a certain perspective, maybe this is why— this is what Buddhists refer to as nirvana, which is just the totality of just existence. Like, there's no more— there's nothing that can be said about it, there's nothing can be done about it. It's not a thing, is just the totality of all. And the levels in between are basically the level of agency, like how, how much your agent-like consciousness perceives itself to be. So maybe your cells are conscious, but they're not as conscious as you, because the amount of information that you embody at the same time is way greater than what any one cell does. And I do feel like that's basically like these infinite nested dolls. So maybe Earth is also conscious and like truly, but not just physical things. Like it kind of gets into this, it gets very esoteric. But this, you know, conference that I mentioned to you with Donald Hoffman and Dr. Andrew Gallimore, this kernel they're talking about, it's actually a super interesting theory.
And it really, to be honest, it was a very small closed event, but to me it felt like something happened. Like, it felt like an inflection point in history in that conference. Like, something huge happened, which is this understanding that they have. I think they unlocked something huge. So you'll be hearing a lot about this, and you should look up Donald Hoffman. He's actually trending. Like, he was on all the big ones. Like, it might be a very, really interesting conversation for you. Um, and basically what, what they found is that there's this one component, which is what they call the kernel of experience, which is it defines— if this is all the possible field of, of experiences you can have, what the kernel determines is how big is the pool from which you're sampling from. So what they think is happening is that the human experience is kind of like maybe here, right? DMT does this. It just kind of samples from a much larger pool of what's possible to experience. And then the experience might become not just more of, but it can become a completely different kind of thing. So it can all of a sudden, you, you know, it's not something that is languageable, it's not Englishable.
You can't really put words to it because those words don't exist. It's just a completely different reformulation. And this is why defining just the layers is very hard of consciousness, because it might not work like in a, uh, like a hierarchy. It might work more like a different arrangements of which makes it way more complex.
Hmm. What about the physical?
That's a great question. That's why I ask myself all the time, if it's all mind, why this particular region of mind feels so regular, feels so like something like I can't really control, right? I, I don't really have a good answer for it yet, but I think that has something to do with fidelity of local structure. So like it's part of the training wheels. It's part of the kind of the grace of God. Because if you would just be— if anything would be anything, you wouldn't be able to exist. Like, you know, if you would just fall through the chair, through the floor, all of a sudden it'd be like, okay, what's going on? Like, you can't trust anything. I think the fidelity of this construct is actually one of the gifts that we've— we were given. And if it's the training ground, then maybe— because if everything you would just think would become immediately it would devolve into hell immediately. Like, how many negative thoughts people have every day? Like, enormous amounts, right? So maybe this is what it is. We're learning how to control our inner state, so there's this hiatus that gives us some grace.
So we see if things go in the wrong direction and we can get to correct them. We're giving time to process what is— how things unfold. So I think maybe what the physical world is It's the, the stage that was created to help us learn to become more of what we're capable of being.
You know, I've heard, um, back to that intravenous DMT experience, you know, I've had people tell me that, that you meet your guardian angels, that you meet, um, you figure out who you are You can ask questions. On DMT? On DMT. Okay. The intervidas one.
Okay. So are you asking me if I'm experiencing it? I'm asking you. I've never met my guardian angel. I've never met what people call the guides. The guides? Yeah, some people refer to them as the guides. When people wake up spiritually, very often they refer to the guides, like people kind of like they tell them what's the correct thing. I, I don't know. I don't want to— like, I've met people that are very kind of spiritually awake. It definitely feels like something to be in their presence, so there's something different. So I tend to believe them, but I don't have a way to know if that's just like a psychological structure that was created in them, you know. Like, I've never experienced it. Is it possible? Yeah, it would make perfect sense that, you know, there will be kind because they're ready, they're kind of guided a little bit more than others to kind of help other humans and all that stuff.
You kind of hear them say, you know, they figure out who they are. Yes. What's— who am I? Like, you hear that a lot in the, in the, in the psychedelic realm, right? Who am I?
What's my purpose? So it's kind of hard to know who's faking it and who actually made it, right? Uh, but yeah, no, I, I think that refers more to the, the whole Buddhist approach of that ultimately you're not of the content. But it actually gets a little kind of fumbled by, by a lot of people that you mentioned, because there's this tendency to say, I've discovered I'm all of this. So like, I'm not just the little me with my psychology, I'm, I'm the totality of all things. When— and, and it, it's true, I think to some degree it's try— it tries to echo what, what Buddhists say. But what Buddhists say is a little bit deeper than this. Buddhists don't say you're the totality of things. They're saying you're none of the things. You're the field in which all the things arise. So the referral is probably to that experience, that you basically discover that there's not like little me struggling in the machine. You're actually just the experience itself in which everything happens. There's actually a really fun practice that you can do anywhere. Uh, it's, uh, it's an old Buddhist practice that was illustrated really well in this book called On Having No Head.
And basically anybody can do this anywhere. If you look at an object, right, and you turn your attention back on yourself, and in that moment you're asking the question, who is looking? But you're not asking the question because you're trying to find out. You're not trying to answer the question. You just, you exist in the question. So, like, if you look at me right now, right? And it might not happen right away, you can practice a few times. But if you then turn the attention just inside, back on yourself, and ask, "Who is looking?" Like, who is actually— where is that thing that is actually looking out? And in the beginning, it would be like all these answers, which is like, "What do you mean? Like, me? Like, here behind my head, where I always—" Well, the second you gave it an answer, you collapse the possibility of experiencing it. But if you allow yourself to not answer, just be in the field of that question, eventually something will happen. And it's a very quick thing, so you're not supposed to go deeper or something like this. Just, you reset, do it again, reset, do it again.
Eventually what will happen is there'll be almost like a glitch. It'll be like, eh, you'll be like, you'll realize that that thing you think you're in the middle, it's not there. There's one line that in some Buddhist practices they repeat over and over and over again. And they repeated it until it becomes a reality. They say, "There's no one here that all of this is happening to." And they keep repeating this. "There's no one here that all of this is happening to." And eventually, from the statement, you get to the experience of that reality, which is actually, there's no one here that all this is happening to. It's just kind of happening. And I've experienced this in meditative retreats. Where it just becomes the room.
What do you mean it just becomes the broom? It just becomes the room.
There's no more agent in the middle. So there's— the body is there, but you don't feel like a you. You realize that the you was just a feeling, just like you feel elation, anger, love, all the emotions. It's, it's just a sensation in the body. The thing that you feel yourself, it's a sensation in the body, probably created for survival reasons. So like When you refer to things, right, because you need to get somewhere— I need to get there, I love whatever, I dislike whatever— when you're making these, you're referring to something. What you're implying is that there's a thing that is there, away from what? Then what's implied is that it's away from something. This implication is what you feel like being a self. It's a feeling of being a you, like a central innerness of some sort. But when you look close enough, you realize it's just all these like outwards pointing vectors. But if you look in the middle, there's nothing there. It was all implied by the, by the references to the external, the external world. But if you relax this machinery and you just stop trying to point, what happens is it just diffuses, just like in 5-MeO where you just kind of become the field.
There's just a room. There's no psychedelic explosion, but there's literally just the room. And it's very peculiar, this feeling, this state, because it's not really outstanding. It's the most matter-of-fact you will ever experience. It's almost like, oh, that's just how things are. And the second you, you know, you get too deeply into the, oh, this is super interesting, then you back self, because now you're referring to something. But that feeling is very liberating, and that's what ultimately liberation is, because then there's nothing to defend, there's nothing to worry about, there's nothing— there's no one here that all this is happening to. It's just kind of happening. But then that feeling, it, you know, if you keep pushing it, you can expand to not associating with even the concept that brought you there, with the body, with everything. And ultimately, according to the Buddha, which is what full liberation is, Nirvana, which is that you stop associating even with your own reincarnation. So like in the moment of death, you're so not attached that you simply no longer reincarnate. It's done. Like there's nothing. But on a much lower level, you can absolutely have this experience just by this little practice that I just described to you.
And it doesn't take years. Like if you actually consistent with it and you do this, like you can do this. Well, well, I wouldn't do it when you drive, but like you just sit on the couch for a second or something. Just do it with like anything. Just look at a camera. It's easier with natural objects, with a bush, whatever. Do it a few times. Within 2 or 3 days, I bet you'll be able to do it. And it will be very distinct. It wouldn't be one of those like, did I manage to do it? You'll be like, holy shit. Like you will feel that there's actually nothing there. It's— and if it's really hard to grasp why this would be convincing, there's a little kind of this allegory that Buddhists use to describe it. It's called the snake and the rope allegory. So basically, if we see like a snake, right, and the thing, and be like, holy shit, you have an emotional response, and then it's not moving, so you and I will be like, wait, is that— because it's still kind of far, it's dark. Oh, we think it's a rope, then you relax.
Right? So, you're going to keep moving between this, like, is it a snake? Is it a rope? Is it a snake? Is it a rope? And so, it's equated to this fact that there's no self. So, you go between experiencing that there is no self, to back to being a self. But there's going to come a moment that if we, you know, if I muster the courage and I get up and I walk towards it and I get close enough, it's going to come a moment where the possibilities collapse. Because if it is a rope, And if I'm close enough and I'm holding it and there's enough information, that's it. I know it's a rope now. And even if I'm going to go back to my seat and leave it there, at no point am I going to all of a sudden believe it's a snake again, because I know it's a rope now. So there's a moment of conclusiveness that happens when I'm close enough. So the experience of having no self, you can have this conclusive experience with in such a way that you will never go back to believing there's a self again.
And that's liberation. That's basically kind of like the, the ultimate point.
So is this an— is this an ego death?
Well, you can think, you can think of it like this.
Yeah. Is it the same as experiencing the oneness on 5?
I think the 5 is accompanied by a lot of other factors as well, like the presence of something divine in addition to that, which doesn't happen with just like collapsing of the self. Uh, but, but the collapsing of the self is very pleasant. It's pure harmony, just like how things are. There's no problems. Everything is perfect. Have you ever had— sometimes people have this haphazardly, but they just don't notice that that's basically what happened. Did you ever have, like, you know, out of nowhere, for no good reason, you just sit there and all of a sudden you're like, oh dude, everything's great. Like, just for a moment, there's like this, like, complete relief for no reason. This happens quite often to people. And then they go back to worrying and all that stuff. But that moment, it's very close to that. And by the way, people lose themselves all the time. This is not my example, pointed out by many. But like when you watch a movie in a theater and you're fully engrossed in the film, like you're fully immersed, you don't remember you came to watch a movie. You don't remember you're there.
You're just in the movie. Well, yourself was diffused, but there's just the movie. See what I'm saying? And then when you snap out of it, you don't even notice the transition, but you're like, you eat popcorn, it's like, now I have a body, oh, I'm in a theater, but you don't think about it, and you go back to the movie. But imagine that with reality, without a movie. It's just like, fuck, it's just the world.
I think I've reached this before, but for maybe a second.
Yes, exactly. People think sometimes they can, oh yeah, I can stop thinking for like 30 seconds. I can't like hang out in that realm. You can if you practice. That's what meditation is for. Meditation is not some kind of a magical trick you do. What it is, is the use— you train the use of your attention in a particular way to bring about that realization, or just like stay in that state longer and longer, basically. And there's techniques to do that.
I mean, so do you have a you? Yeah, yeah. I, uh, so for example, you're able to eliminate the you or collapse it, as you say. I mean, is, is there a you?
There is no, there is no actual you in the sense of like that. That's not a thing. It's, it's an imp— the reason it's called an illusion is because it's implied in. So like, uh, if you put, uh, you know, this visual illusion of like 4 squares, you're saying you is invisible. Is invisible as an emotion. It's— well, I'm giving you a visual example. So if you have 4 squares and each square has a little thing cut out of it to create the illusion of a circle in the middle— you, you can visualize this right now? Well, that circle is, is what the self is. It's implied between— because of how the squares are. Squares are real, circle isn't. It's just implied. And it's exactly the same thing. So now I can't do this on the fly. That requires a pretty high level of meditators to do this, like, on a regular basis. I've had it a couple times, so I can report on it. But there's some people that claim that they can do this pretty much on the fly, and they can just turn it on or turn it off. And you're fully online, by the way.
You're not, like, confused or anything. That'll be the difference between 5-MeO and something like this. You're a fully coherent person. You can perform tasks, speak, In fact, there's much higher clarity in that state because there's not all this extra work being done to try and think about what I am, how I appear. None of this is online. You just kind of speak.
What's something I should be asking you that I haven't asked?
Man, put me on the spot. I don't know, we covered quite a bit. Uh, maybe there's something that— yeah, it's something that I guess I already said. How would I think of it in terms of a question is, what should we actually be focused on, uh, given the fact that we can be aware of so much more of what is possible to know? And I'm really passionate about this question because I think that that holds the key for humanity's future. It's very difficult to adopt because it requires actual relinquishing of a lot of the convictions that people hold. And it doesn't really matter what it is. Like, if you have a very strong conviction of anything, you should lower the volume on that. Because first of all, things in the world are extremely complex, and even more so when it's compounded by the fact that you will never really have access to the, to the reality of what the situation really is. And this applies, by the way, to anything. So Everybody who's— their favorite topic rings in their mind. I'm not implying anything, I'm literally speaking about everything. Everything is like this. Um, and the only way that I see that humanity will move into a future that is worth having is if everybody, or the majority of people, can actually lower the volume of what they think they know for sure and then allow themselves to just experience at the true moment there.
Now, people like you, for example, you have a lot of reach. So what you say and what you think actually does do a thing. But for most people, just me leaving a bunch of comments online, things, it's just, it's not only it's not doing anything, if anything, it just disturbs the field even more. So like the thing that, the way that I view it, the thing that where we can move into a future that is truly worth like actually having and being a part of is if people can actually just own their own domain. Like, what is it that— I've said this on, you know, many occasions, so it might sound a little repetitive to people who follow me, but if you are spending 80% of your day criticizing other people, even if you think you're punching up, right, but you haven't done anything today to make someone else's life in your life better— ask your neighbor what they need help with, like something that you actually did that is actually doing then you're just making noises, like, it's— and you're kind of disturbing yourself and everything else. And this is why I said it's easier said than done.
I'm not preaching. I'm guilty of this all the time. But I— when I'm in more, you know, clear-headed spaces, I know that I shouldn't. Like, I know that I should— if I can, I should move towards more and more just kind of focusing on what I can do to make someone next to me feel better, uh, in a genuine way, to help someone, to it also feels a certain way. Like, there's, there's a more of like a wholesome feeling to it, right, when you truly do something good. So if we can focus more on that— and by the way, this does not eliminate the, the fun of interacting with super grand ideas. I love them. But you enjoy them even more if you know you're acting out of a place of, of care, of love, and you're trying to do your best to project the best intentions versus the worst intentions, which is something— again, I'm guilty of it all the time. Um, but it feels different because you get to see possibility. There's— okay, there's this book that I forget the name of, and I didn't even read, to be honest, but the idea that somebody explained to me from the book really resonated.
It's something about frames. So it's all about, um, how do you put— what kind of frame you projected around a person. So let's say if somebody even is trying to pull a fast one on you, right, they're kind of trying to pull some shit, right? If you can do this in a genuine way, which is very tricky, it's very hard because usually if you identify that, you go like, oh, nobody, you know what I mean? Like, you start getting like all— you lock your horns. But if you can just like genuinely project something onto them, like actually see them in a really positive light, but truly, they will actually have a very hard time to still do that. Because people don't want to lose something good. It's a lot more painful to lose something than to get— than the fear of not having it ever. If I just tell you that I would have given you $20 but never gave it to you versus giving you $20 like in a casino and then taking them away from you, you ended up with the same amount of money anyway. But that second one was way more painful because I took something away from you.
So if I'm giving you this positive outlook of you, again, still it has to be within the bounds of reason, of course. But people, if they, they will identify that and it will be very hard for them to still do that thing because that means they will lose that positive outlook of themselves. And if we can just project more of that onto one another, and again, doesn't mean we have to be delusional. We can still fix everything that needs to be fixed and criticize properly all the things that need to be criticized. But there's, if there's just a little bit more of, I guess, I guess the word is grace. There's a little bit more grace in the understanding that most people are just trying their best and failing. Most people are not this, you know, conniving, mustache-twirling, you know, like just want to mess things up. Most people do their best and failing because they don't know any better. And if we can just have a little bit more of that, and we can still take strong action, and we can still do everything that needs to be done, and we just recognize that the majority of people are not psychopaths, they're just like everybody else.
To me, that's the remedy to try and move the world into a better place, because ultimately the world is a collection of personal interactions just on different scales. So if you can raise a generation of children that is more like that, it's a lot easier to do things in a different way. And of course, I'm aware that it seems to be like an infinite in a distance from us. But I think it's possible. When I watch my daughter grow, I'm like, I want to do more of that so she gets to grow into a world that she would really enjoy.
I love that. It's a great way to end this.
Thank you for having me, Sean. Yeah, thank you for coming.
That was awesome. Thank you. Thank you. I enjoyed it. Hope to see you again. I hope so too.
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Danny is an independent researcher. He is the founder of Code of Reality (COR), an interdisciplinary initiative that explores what he calls Cognitive Physics: the fertile territory where mind and matter meet. He is essentially asking, "what is the physics of cognition?". COR convenes scientists, philosophers, technologists, and indigenous wisdom-keepers in collaborative investigations designed to blur the line between observer and observed. By fostering dialogue across disciplines normally siloed from one another, COR serves as both a research hub and a cultural bridge, advancing a holistic science of consciousness that can thrive alongside mainstream physics.
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