Transcript of #298 Jason Magnavice - SEAL Team 6 Red Squadron Operator New

Have you seen this show before?

Yes, I watched the one with Biz.

Oh, okay. Your buddies—

DJ, you watch DJ's? Well, I knew DJ when he was a kid.

Yeah, I saw that.

I did a freaking— I did a platoon with his dad. He was my— his dad was actually my platoon chief. Yeah, I knew DJ when he was 13 or 14, just to go hang out with his parents. They'd always, you know, they have a big deer roast. You know, we'd go hunting and eat some venison, tell stories. His dad was one of the most incredible storytellers. Very—

still is—

animated, huh?

Still is, right? You still talk to him?

No. No.

Are you buddies with DJ?

DJ, I shoot him a text every now and then. And like, I went to Virginia Beach about a year ago to go through a like a workout program there. VHB, it's called.

Very—

it's an awesome program. And then we were going to link up then, but our schedules didn't ever seem to— all right, on to add up.

Right on. Let me start you off with an introduction.

You ready? I'm ready.

All right. Jason Magnavice, J-Mags, retired Navy SEAL with over 26 years in the community, 8 years at SEAL Team 2, 15 years at JSOC, Joint Special Operations Command Dev Group, which led to earning your airline transport pilot's certificate and numerous FAA aviation qualifications. Served as, served as a tactical communicator, sniper, lead jumper, and team leader. Completed 4 deployments to Operation Enduring Freedom. Completed 4 deployments to Operation Iraqi Freedom. Closed out your career as the coordinator for recruiting candidates for Naval Special Warfare. Senior enlisted advisor for the only enlisted aviation unit unit in the Department of Defense. Currently an airline pilot flying a Gulfstream for a private family, holding a 767-type rating at a major freight carrier. Raised with a Jehovah's Witness mother and a Vietnam vet father. Most importantly, you are the father of one daughter and the grandfather of two boys. No social media, No book, nothing to sell.

Nothing to sell. Did I write that? I did, right?

Yeah, I found that out. But, uh, but, uh, well, since you're, uh, new to media, I thought we'd, uh, kick it off with something real easy. Super easy to talk about. Everyday carry.

Me, I got a 365 Legion AXG.

You got a 365 Legion?

Yes.

Nice. Nice. What do you carry? What else do you carry?

Um, actually, I just picked up a Staccato.

Nice.

Two days ago.

Nice.

Yeah.

You like it?

It's a little Gucci, you know what I mean? But it's— it shoots like a dream. It's heavy. It's an XC, but it was one made— our community actually got— it's got like little Bone Frog on the side, American flag on it. That's kind of why. And it got a pretty good deal for a Staccato.

Nice.

Yeah, it's a, it's a cool gun.

So what would you carry? What would you carry when you were a pilot in the development group?

Nothing.

Nothing.

Oh, no, we flew pretty much in the States.

That's pretty much it.

Yeah. Flying our bosses around gear to and from, you know, certain places. That's Pretty much it. Yeah, we didn't carry no firearms.

Right on. What would you carry if you were doing some low-pro stuff over a dev group? Talk about pistol, what's in your go bag, any cool devices you may have had.

We pretty much carried the 226 back then before they transit in the big— the, uh, the HK, was it Mark 21, the.45? Holy shit.

You guys were using those?

A couple of guys carried them. Yeah. It just for the suppressed value of some of them. And a Ruger Mark III. I've got a Mark IV, but we carry the one, the self-suppressed Ruger to.22.

Self with a little hush puppy.

Yeah. For shooting out streetlights and stuff like that.

Nice. Nice. Anything else? What kind of medical?

Uh, just block it. That's it. We had PJs that did all that stuff.

What kind of long rifle were you using?

Um, we— I had an SR-25K. I like to carry.308. It was a shorter SR-25, and.300 Win Mag was like the laser beam back then. And now everybody I know is shooting 6.5 Creedmoor, all that other stuff.

And yeah, what's your favorite round?

I like.308 and.300 Win Mag.

You like.308,.300? Do you like.300 Blackout?

I got a Daniel Defense PDW, actually. That's pretty sweet.

Yeah. No shit.

But every time you squeeze off, it's like there's $5, $5, $5, $5. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Well, I got you a present.

What'd you get me?

You want to see it?

Sure.

All right. It's a bag of gummy bears. Vigilance League gummy bears. See, I do have shit to sell.

I like gummy bears.

But that's a bag of Vigilance League gummy bears made in the USA, legal in all 50 states. So you can fly home.

Am I gonna pop positive if I take these? Anything?

My pop positive for sugar and red dye, and that's about it. And I did get you one other present too, since we're talking about, uh, weapons and—

oh yeah, this is a story behind guns and everyday carry. Oh, no way.

Yeah, man, have you seen these? This is, uh, that is Sig Sauer. This is— no, this is, this is, uh, this came out after the Rattler. This is better than the fucking Rattler, my, my opinion. But, uh, this is the Sig MCX Spear. And so this is, uh, they're replacing all of the— supposedly they're replacing all the military rifles with the 6.5, uh, excuse me, yeah, 6-point— shit, now there's so many rounds coming out, I can't fucking keep track. It's either 6.5 or 6.8.

Yeah, you start talking, start talking guns but, uh, but this one—

so they got a 5.56 version, a.300 Blackout version, and a 6-point whatever version, and, uh, they put their new optics on the top of them for you. This is like— you can't even get these yet, barely. And then, are you familiar with Silencer Shop?

Yes, I just, I just picked up a couple Huxworks cans, a 5.56 and a.308.

No shit. Yeah, well Sig was ecstatic that you were coming on the show. I told Jason, he'll get a buddy over there. Jason, he's, uh, runs the marketing over there, and, uh, it's a great place.

They're a great company.

Have you been out there?

Yes, we went out there for an event for, um, the foundation.

Oh, nice.

Like 2 Octobers ago. Yeah, it was, it was a good time. A lot of good people out at that place. A lot of good people.

Nice. Well, uh, and then Silencer Shop. There you go. Silencer Shop got word that you were coming on, and, uh, you know, I don't know, I guess you'd already have experience with them, but, you know, you put in— once you get signed up with them, they make it super easy. They do all the paperwork for you. You go to a gun shop that's got Silencer Shop kiosks in there, it just makes it super simple. And then the other thing they do is they also fight for basically gun rights, you know, especially obviously suppressors. So fucking awesome company. But told them you were coming on too and they wanted to throw a can on there, so that's yours.

I'm extremely honored.

Have fun.

Thank you very much. I will, I will. We got a little, a little place, Lampasas, Texas, that we do some blinking at.

Nice, nice.

Try to eradicate the hog population out there because they get out of control.

I hear that could be pretty challenging.

Yes. But, uh, from a helicopter, it's entertaining.

Nice. Well, maybe we'll break that in later. We got a range out back, so thank you very much.

I'm really honored. Thank you. You're welcome.

And then, uh, one more thing to crank out before we get into the, to the real interview. So I have a Patreon account, and it's a community that we've built, and so they're the reason that I get to be here with you today. And do these interviews. So they get the opportunity to ask every single guest a question. And this is from Rex Herman. What was the moment in your career that changed the way you think about leadership the most?

The moment when— well, I've worked for some incredible people, enlisted guys. And when I first got to the command, I'll just call this guy Crazy Horse. He was one of the best leaders I ever worked for. You know, a humble guy that didn't think he knew everything all the time. And if he had any, any que— that's like who I wanted to be like. We respected him. He was a hard worker. He led by example, but he wasn't hardheaded, right? He was just, hey, if he had a que— he wasn't afraid to ask a question. He wasn't afraid to delegate other people that he knew were better at certain things that he wasn't. And that's what, what really made me respect leadership a lot from him. Right on. And a few other people.

What date, what year did you get to the command?

2001.

Holy shit.

Yeah. When I went over there—

And you left in 2019, I think you told me before we started.

2016.

2016. Holy shit.

Yeah.

15 fucking years over there.

I went over there for a break. 2.

I saw that in your outline. You wanted a break and then decided to screen for DEVGRU pre-9/11.

I wanted a break. I was tired of doing 6-month deployments when I was at Little Creek. And, um, I did winter warfare platoons too, so it was a long workup. You know, some of the deployments were over 6 months, 6, 7 months. And my daughter was born in what year? '97. And, uh, I was gone a lot and we weren't really working that much. A little stuff in Bosnia, Kosovo, that's pretty much— yeah, that was our work schedule back then. Then I'm like, hey, hon, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna screen for date because a bunch of my buddies are going over there too. A whole bunch of my buddies from 2 were going over there. Like, I'm gonna screen and some of the guys are, you know, pretty set in their ways that want— that are like Team 2, you know what I mean? They were— some didn't want to go over there, they didn't want to go through the challenge. Of the selection process again, and I could get it. I can understand it. So some of them were trying to talk me out of it, but I'm like, nah, dude, I'm not going to be home.

You know what I mean? I'll be home for 3 months at a time. You thought you'd be at home? But this is— I got a— I got out of the selection process, Green Team, in September of 2001.

Holy—

and I remember walking across the compound when we were talking about the planes hitting the towers. And the first thought was, man, ATC must have screwed that up. Then when the second one hit the tower, yeah, we got— they took our whole class into a briefing room. Our skipper came in, gave us the brief, and we're like, oh boy, excited. Yeah, excited because we knew we're going to be busy. But, you know, the families, it took a— the families were like, our guys are going to be gone for for quite a bit. And we were.

Damn, man. We were. Damn.

Yep.

Well, I know you've had one hell of a career, but let's start prior to the career.

All right.

Where'd you grow up?

Waterbury, Connecticut.

What were you into?

Um, I was into bikes, baseball, and football, pretty much.

That's it?

Yeah.

What about when you were a littler? Any time in the woods?

Oh yeah, well, my grandfather. So that's, yeah, getting back to the— yeah, by the way, I got to get for you. We'll get that down the road. But, uh, yeah, my grandfather taught my mom's dad. He was a Korean War guy. He from Kentucky, big backwoods guy. Yeah, he taught me. We'd go hiking all the time where we used to live by a reservoir in Waterbury, Connecticut. Yeah, he'd take me on hikes, point out like poison ivy, poison oak. Showed me how to make little spears, like with his little folding knife. And then, yeah, we climbed this mountain. He called it Jason's Mountain. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty good upbringing. Me and my dad also taught me a lot growing up. He was kind of a stickler for baseball and football and pretty stern when it came to that stuff too.

Oh, really serious? Yeah.

Right on. Yep.

What does your dad do?

My dad, he worked— well, when he got out of the Navy, he started— he worked for a cargo company as a supervisor for transportation. And then he actually retired from the state of Connecticut working as a transportation supervisor for the state.

What about your mom?

She pretty much a stay-at-home mom for most of her life. I got a sister I'm 4 years older than and a brother I'm 10 years older than.

Okay, so you're the oldest?

Yes.

And your mom was a— is— is or was— was Jehovah's Witness?

Yes.

We have— we have a prior Jehovah's Witness working here.

Great people, aren't they?

Yeah, awesome human being. He's editing the show right now. But, uh, is he still— boy, he's got some fucking stories.

Is he? Oh yeah, it's rough. It's rough growing up as a kid being a Jehovah's Witness.

They stole his kid from him. They did? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess I can't say they stole his kid from him, but they— it's a, it's a custody battle. And like the whole— they're all going against him. It's wild.

The religion did?

Yeah.

Kingdom Hall didn't?

Really? Yeah. Well, I'm sure I'll tell you about it after.

That's crazy.

You had a good experience? No.

Yeah, uh, it's hard to explain. So my mom had me when she was— this is a funny story. My dad got drafted, he was 20.

Your dad got drafted?

Yeah, he got drafted. He was supposed to go to PBR, then he volunteered for submarines because it was also sub trainings in Groton, Connecticut, to this— at the sub base there. So it was convenient. And before he got— yeah, so my parents are married in May, and my mom was a little Miss Goody Awesome. I love her to death. Little Miss Goody Two-Shoes. I'm like, Ma, you were born on, say, a certain date in October, and my birthday's 2 weeks later. So she turned 18 and I was born 2 weeks later.

Wow.

Yeah, they're still married.

Wow.

Yeah, that's cool. But when my dad was deployed, you know, and some of his sub trips and stuff like that, Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, they go door to door on Saturdays or throughout the week, and they kind of pulled her into it. And because she was probably pretty easy to influence her to have, you know, like a congregation of people, like-minded. And they do got— they're great, they're incredible human beings for the most part. You know, everybody's got their—

I can't argue that. Apple, everyone I've met, they've been super nice.

But then, you know, going to church 3 times a week, well, the Kingdom Hall That's what they call, you know, the church where they go. Having to wear a suit, which I still to this day, I don't like wearing a suit. Get dressed up in a little suit, little tie, go to Bible study once a week, like a Tuesday nights. You go to church Wednesday, Sunday for an hour and a half. That was— oh, and you don't celebrate any holidays.

That's what I was going to— you don't celebrate birthday, Christmas, anything.

Yeah, but if you dig deep into— hey, I'm not promoting them. I'm not saying anything, but they do. Like when you go to a normal church, you have your pastor. Master or priest up there, right? They just talk off the cuff. They just give you, you know, with a lot of their knowledge, which I think they gain internally as themselves.

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World's tallest building.

What do you think, Sean? We're high. Jehovah's Witnesses, all they do is read from the Bible. That's it. You know, from Genesis to Revelation. Their viewpoints are pretty good. Why, you know, celebrate certain holidays? Yeah, it makes sense. But it's tough when you're a kid, you know, all your buddies are celebrating.

Why don't they celebrate? Halloween.

How do they celebrate? There's a reason in the Bible for it. Like, start off with Halloween, right? Halloween, that's obviously a pretty evil holiday. Yeah, it's satanic. Christmas, Jesus was born December 25th. Historians know that, right? So, but it's just convenience. I think holidays of convenience. Easter, which I heard, did you have a conversation with somebody talking about this, the weird star alignment that's going to be happening in a couple of weeks? Yeah, what do you—

oh, you know what, you know, you— how do you know about that?

Did you watch that episode? I got crazy family member— no, somebody, my mom, my mother-in-law sent me that. I think my mother-in-law sent me that.

No shit.

Because she's into that. Yeah, she's really like off-the-cuff stuff, man. I'm like, Ma, you gotta calm down with this stuff. But she reads some— sends us some stuff. Here we go, the banks are all going to explode, this is going to happen, you know what I mean?

Like, that sounds like here.

Yeah, that's why I try to stay away from it. I just try to do my own thing, you know what I mean? I try to stay busy. But, um, yeah, getting back to the holidays. Yeah, Easter, Christmas.

This guy— let's— so yeah, what you're talking about, this guy said the second coming's happening Easter 2026. So I'm excited. Yeah, we'll see what happens.

You got to be ready for it.

About a week away, any day.

And getting ready and getting back to that religion, getting back to the Jehovah's Witnesses, man, that they believe in, you know, Armageddon. Is going to eventually happen, all outlined in Revelations. All the shit you see going on in the world right now, sorry, God, is like, it's what it says. You know what I mean? People just take it for granted. Oh, just ho hum. You know what I mean? It's starting in Iran. Yeah, that's kind of— there's certain signs.

It's fucking wild.

But you got to have— hey, you got to have faith. You know what I mean? And be ready for it. That's the big thing.

Yeah.

What, what, what?

What got your mom out of it? When did she leave?

When I joined the military.

Really?

I'll get back. Yeah. So I graduated high school at 17 and I couldn't— they wouldn't— my parents wouldn't sign a waiver for me. My dad wanted me to go in as an officer. So he's like, Jay, give me a year of college. And I hated school. Like I told— getting back to the story, I wanted to be a SEAL since I was 10, like 1982 when I saw the first Rambo movie. Nice. But yeah, when I joined, the military, she stopped going to the Kingdom Hall, stopped going to church, and she kind of let it— and then my sister had kids and then, oh, they started celebrating Christmas and everything. Yes.

Is your dad a Christian?

He's Protestant. He was raised Protestant. But yeah, he believes in God, but really non-denominational, I guess.

Gotcha. So he, he, he grew up celebrating Christmas?

Yes.

And then you guys did not celebrate anything?

Yep. He just went along for the ride to keep my mom happy.

Yeah. Do you celebrate Christmas now?

Yeah, yeah, I do. Yes, I do, man.

That's fucking great. That's just weird to me.

It's weird. And then just, yeah, you know, everybody talking about— yeah, it's a weird— hey, but they have like— hey, they stand behind their faith, you know what I mean? They really— they're really sticklers for it. Go door to door spreading the word. It's— I've let them in all the time when I was in Virginia Beach. I don't see them too much in Austin. I don't see many going door to door there. But yeah, I'd let them in and talk with them, you know, and give them my viewpoints. And like, when they don't believe in really serving, you know, a particular government or country, they believe you should just serve God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, all that.

You're making this sound really good.

Yeah.

Huh?

It's— no, if there was one true belief, yeah, I think that's one of the truest because I've around at all. I've heard it all from Catholicism to— are you any denomination?

I guess I, I consider myself Catholic.

Yeah, okay.

I consider myself Catholic, but I bounce back and forth between that and non-denominational because I— and I'll tell you why. I think that the Catholics have the spiritual warfare stuff down better than anybody else. I think they really understand what's going on, you know, in the other realm. And but I think that the— I think that the Catholics don't do the best job of teaching about the life of Jesus and the Bible. And nondenominational churches do a much, much better job of that. And so, you know, I grew up Catholic and then left right around when I joined the SEAL teams. Didn't come back to Christianity for, uh, I guess I found faith about 2, 3 years ago. And, um, and so really dove into the non-denominational stuff to learn about Christ and the Bible and all that stuff. And then actually through the show, interviewing all these exorcists and, and, um, stuff like that, it kind of got me back into— I'm really interested in spiritual warfare. In that realm.

Yeah, there's a whole different— yeah, there's definitely a whole different realm, I believe, in— to— definitely.

Yeah.

But like, my first time going to Italy, like, I walked in the Vatican, I was like, this place is pretty cool, but it's very materialistic, right? Very materialistic. Which a lot of stuff in the Bible is.

Sounds a lot like the Pharisees.

Yes.

Yeah, I'm with you. I totally—

and then how do you— in celibacy, I'm like, does it really say anywhere in the Bible to be. I mean, God wouldn't have made a woman for out of his own image that he created. He wouldn't have made it. Yeah, he wouldn't have brought Eve in, right? If, yeah, down the road you got to be, hey, you got to be celibate, you can't procreate. It makes— and I'm not too sure the real reason behind it. I've heard a bunch of theories about keeping, you know, certain sects of the Catholic Church within each other. You know, I'm not too sure how— where that really came from.

I don't know either.

But it's just weird. Yeah, it's— once again, like you said, I think you just got to have faith in whatever you believe in because there's some weird— yeah, I mean, there's some weird stuff going on.

There's definitely some weird shit going on in the world. But so you wanted to be a SEAL since 11 years old, spent a lot of time out in the woods carving spears, making weapons.

Yeah, well, my dad— that's why I brought this for you. It's a movie prop, but I saw the first Rambo at 10. Jehovah's Witness kid. My dad takes me to see, because he heard about this movie at work or something, he takes me to see First Blood, rated R movie, 1982, '83, came out, I think '82. And I was like, holy cow. I'm like, that is— I mean, that image you get in your head at 10 years old, too, like that, just being in the woods, the freaking blade that he had, you know what I mean? This ain't the Jimmy Lyle one. Jimmy Lyle made Dark Assault Knife Smith. He passed away a while ago. But I was intrigued. And my dad's like, yeah, Green Berets, like they say in a movie or something. Those guys are real badasses. My dad's like, I worked with, you know, these guys called, you know, UDTs and SEALs back in the South China Sea and submarines. He did a couple of a few things with them. And I always loved the water too. And you know, that image of coming out of the water with, oh yeah, you know, all kitted up.

It's when you're impressionable at that age, it's, it leaves a big mark on your brain. And yeah, when I was in middle school, like, Jay, what do you want to do when you grow up? I said, I want to join the Navy. I want to— nobody knew in the '80s what the freak a SEAL was to like 1990 when, well, when Marcinko wrote the book Rogue Warrior or whatever. And then in 1990 when the SEALs movie came out with Charlie Sheen or whatever, that— and I thought that was pretty cool. Like, again, I was impressionable, 17 years old. And, um, yep. When I wanted to be a team guy since, yeah, I was a young kid.

Damn.

But I couldn't— I graduated high school. My dad wouldn't sign a waiver for me. Like I said, I was 17. No, I want you to go and be an officer. No, it's not. I don't like college, you know. I didn't like school at that time. And, um, I turned 18 and joined. Back then it was on delayed entry program. I was talking to my recruiter the whole time I was in college, and, uh, he's like the one recruiter that didn't lie to you, right? Like they always say, recruiters bullshit you. And he was a quartermaster rating on the submarine, and back then they had the dive fair program, which you join but as a non-rate. You go to boot camp, pass a screening test, go to BUD/S, and then if you fail— if you make it through, you get a rating. But if you don't make it through BUD/S, it's not like nowadays where you could say, I'm emotionally distraught, and they let you out of the Navy. If you didn't go to BUD/S, you're like chipping paint and, you know, swabbing decks as a non-rate in a fleet, which is not good. And my recruiter's like, Jay, the odds of you making it through BUD/S are very small.

Because you're going to want to have, if it follows through, you're going to want to have a good rate in the Navy. So I'm a QM. It's a pretty decent rate. And I just think I wanted the shortest A school, you know, the shortest school you go to for the rating. And back then I think it was single men was 3 weeks and QM was 6 weeks. So I'm like, yep, sign me up. And yeah, boot camp, A school in Orlando, then straight to BUD/S.

Right on. What'd you think of BUD/S? Hold on, let me back up. What did your parents think when you got in?

I didn't think they thought that I would make it through BUD/S, but that was a great thing when it came to graduation. They weren't happy. They weren't happy, but they knew I wanted to do it. When I turned 18, I mean, I signed the line. Yep.

Right on. They got over it though.

Yeah. Yeah, they did. Yeah.

So what did you think of BUD/S? You get there—

Well, hindsight's always 20/20 when it comes to BUD/S, right? I got there in a—

You're 18, right?

Uh, yep. Just getting ready to turn 19. And, um, I got there in August, right when a bunch of— we had like 12 officers in our BUD/S class, mostly all Academy guys. We had 2 Air Force Academy guys too. It was a good group of dudes, hard chargers, you know what I mean? And but back then you're just young and dumb, man. You just— BUD/S pissed me off while I was there. Like, I never thought about quitting. I was just mad all the time going through BUD/S, jogging into the compound. We first got there, you know, and getting in step, everybody getting like, dude, shut the— they're going to drop a drop. I told you, stop. We're getting yelled at by not only our own, our own O's, but by the instructors of BUD/S, like, constantly. But it was It's a big mind game, like they say. But like, when I was doing the coordinator thing out of San Antonio, kids would ask, what's the— I'm like, dude, it's about— it's if you get past the PST and just stay healthy, you know, and deal with the mind games and buds, you're going to be fine.

Yeah.

Yeah. As you know, it's a big— yeah, a lot of, a lot of mind games.

Did you have any hang-ups?

Um, no, nothing. When we got to the— what's that stuff guys would get? TBI, the side of their knee, whatever. Not TBI. Oh yeah, the, uh, that little tendon. I always thought it was bullshit until I got to Santa Clemente Island and I could barely bend my leg. But yeah, I made it, ended up getting it through. But that TBI I forget what it's called. Yeah, your tibial band. Yeah, something like that. But yeah, that was the one time I really got freaking pretty much, I guess you'd say, hung up.

That's it though.

Time runs a couple times in the O course. Yep. I remember getting hammered once for that, trying to time the rope swing, and instructor yelling at me. I, I said a really bad word to him, and sure enough, he had duty that night in the grinder, and like the whole 1008 comp bodybuilders. Just the mental part to just staying healthy was, it was the key. Being smart, you know what I mean? And not doing anything like stupid or— Yeah, staying healthy was the biggest in being cold, wet, and sandy all the time. You just got to get used to it. You got to.

What did you What did your parents think when you hit graduation?

They were proud. Yeah, they— my parents never fly either. They're homebodies. They, they don't fly anywhere. And they flew out to California, to San Diego, came out to Coronado. Yeah, they were proud. Still, yeah, I got to find some of those pictures back then before the digital times.

How did that feel?

Totally against you joining the military, but then I was I was happy that they were happy that, you know, I actually made it through. And I got pretty fortunate with the same class. But then we had to go to jump school right after that, airborne. And that was freaking— you throw in a bunch of gung-ho young Navy dudes into a pretty regimented Army school in Fort Benning. It was— we got in a lot of trouble there. We got a couple guys got sent back to the camp, but back then it was like, all right, we'll send you back and in a couple weeks.

Would you get sent back for—

I didn't get sent back. A couple of my buddies did for just, yeah, running in formation with each other, running around the formation. We jump into freaking water before we did a PST, just being, you know, cocky. Yeah, it's kind of— you look back at it now and you're— it's kind of like, yeah, we were pretty dumb.

Yeah, we, uh, We weren't even that fucking bad, and they just kept picking on us. And you know what I mean, the, uh, the Army cadre just kept picking on us. So, well, so one of our guys, you know, they make you do watch and shit out. Yeah, you know, the barracks. And so a really good friend of mine, he's, he's he's passed away now. His name's Kyle Paulson. Name was Kyle Paulson. He, he posted all his guys up there. Like, he's like, you go watch that door, you go watch that door, you watch the front door, you watch the back door. I'll be right back. Went in to the sergeant major's desk and took a huge shit. Took a huge shit right on his fucking desk. And, you know, the watch goes all night. And so the next morning, like, we're all out there standing, and you knew you were getting blamed.

You knew you're gonna get blamed. I know, right?

Well, none of us even fucking knew. And we're just— he didn't tell— he didn't tell the guys that he had posted up on the doors. He didn't tell any of the other guys that were coming there from BUD/S. You know, we're all in the same BUD/S class, and we're standing out there in formation the next morning, and this guy was just a total— it was just like, dude, we're not even doing anything, you're being a fucking asshole to us. For no reason. And, uh, he comes out, he's like, these fucking—

you fucking SEALs!

And we're all like, what the hell? Who shit on my fucking desk? That's what he fucking starts his thing, starts the muster with, who shit on my fucking desk? And, uh, dude, it was just— it was—

I mean, did he ever get caught, or did he Anybody rat him out?

No, no, he told us that night, but now none of us wrote. Thought it was fucking hilarious. So yeah, just, just the visualization of that dickhead having to scrape shit off of his desk.

Dude, that's freaking disgusting.

Yeah, I know it is. It's also hilarious. So, but, uh, yeah, yeah, anyways.

And you knew you were gonna get blamed for it anyway because, yeah, they always— those freaking Navy guys. Because I think we had a couple EOD guys there too. But, uh, yeah, we got blamed for it pretty much. You know, we, you know, the 32-foot tower?

Oh yeah.

Well, well, like the second class is the E-5s were in charge of the little hill. You jump off the 32-foot tower, you hooked up the little D-rings, you do your 4-count and get down. We had this big dead Blackbird on top of the— and we thought it was gonna go up to our Black Hat. Our Black Hat, our instructor, was a cool dude. He jumped into Panama freaking He had his little freaking mustard stain on his airborne wings. So he, he was in the 75th Ranger Regiment too. So he has, he had a little bit of animosity from the other instructors looking at him, but he was real cool to us and to the future team guys that just got out of BUD/S. But we thought he was going to be up there and they switched sides, but we took this blackbird, shoved its head. It was, it was somehow it died up on the freaking hill. We shoved the head in the D-ring. So when the runners come down, like, they hook the little rope up to the D-ring and they're bringing— they're running, and this bird, it wasn't small, is like flopping like this.

So the instructor, nonchalant, like, "Oh, crap." He just yells, "Everybody drop!" And it was a different guy. And we got— yeah, they hit— well, tried to hammer us. We were— we just keep doing push-ups because that's all we've been doing our whole lives. Well, up to that point. And yeah, he was— he took everybody off the hill. We had hammered us for a good hour, and, and the poor other people up on the hill that were just going through airborne were like— they had to pay the price for our stupidity, you know what I mean?

Oh shit, dude.

Yeah, that was, uh, yeah, interesting times back then. A long time ago, man.

Good times. Yeah, good times. Good memories.

But definitely.

So where do you go from jump school?

Team 2.

Team 2.

Yep.

What was the reputation of Team 2 back then?

Oh my, Team 1 and Team 2, man. The SEAL Team Shoe, they called it. It was, uh, yeah, you don't want to be a new guy hanging around in the locker room in the cage area on a Friday, put it that way. Yeah, yeah, hazing was pretty, um, pretty common.

Did you get it?

Pretty fun.

Oh yeah, give me a good hazing story. They don't do this shit anymore.

No, dude, I was at When I made third class and got my bird, we were at Fort Pickett in, uh, in Virginia. And my dude, my first platoon, they all went, we all went to Captain's Mass after deployment for a hazing incident that was actually an accident, but it went to the wrong people. But anyway, yeah, I'm talking if you try to fight back at all, because I was a pretty good scrapper back then. Now it's all, it's all over when somebody's got your balls in their hand and freak, they're twisting, man. And You're getting, you're getting tied up or zip tied and getting dragged out, freaking shaving your balls, hot sauce in the balls, uh, getting hit with paddles. Yeah, it was— it's stupid, right?

It's all fun and games until you're tied naked to a spine board hanging upside down from an elevator shaft and they're shooting fucking simulation rounds at you and then tape your head up and put a little pinhole in your mouth and throw you in the fucking showers. Yeah, like, welcome to Team 2.

You're like, waterboarding? Like, what? You did that all the time, man. Yeah, drop a rag on your face while you're hanging upside down, and then as soon as you take an inhale, oh, somebody's blowing cigar smoke in your face. Yeah, they're like, that's not, that's not torture.

Pour whiskey down your throat.

Oh, oh my goodness. Yeah, it was stupid. I mean, back then it was just like, and then once you actually, you got your—

there were like no fucking rules when you were in. But back—

yeah, well, that's why you were I mean, like, no rules. You were smart when you got secured on Friday. We would sneak out through the locker room, jump the back fence over by STV, and get to your car that you parked down the road. So you want to get freaking— guys would have, yeah, keg in the locker room, you know, a Friday, and freaking, where the new guys at? You don't want to be around, man.

Did you carry that forward?

No, I did not. I, uh, no, I can't say that I did. I wasn't big into it. I wasn't really big into— no, I thought it was stupid when it happened to me, so I'm like, why would I want to do that? But when you were a new guy and after you got hazed, and they— if somebody else was going to get hazed, they made you— like me and my buddy John, we were to take down guys. Like, the most dangerous part of hazing somebody that doesn't want to be hazed, right? You gotta go in and grab them while everybody else tries to control them, tie them up, do whatever. And then I just— yeah. It wasn't for me, really.

Yeah, yeah. Well, how did it feel checking into Team 2 after BUD/S?

A lot of pride, a lot of pride in Team 2 because, you know, they had a reputation. I kind of wanted to go to 4 because I like South America jungle type stuff, which come to find out the order I got, I really don't like the jungle that much. Um, there's a lot of history there, you know what I mean, when you walk across that quarterdeck. Um, and then, but you still, you still got to go through STT And then SEAL tactical training back then before they, they stopped doing that and made it all go on in Coronado. But, uh, yeah, STT was, it was fun and challenging. I mean, the summertime in Virginia at Ape Hill, very hot. And then that's where you try to start, you know, building your reputation too, because nobody really cares who you are until you get, you check into your team and then you start training and that's all shooting, moving, communicating, really, really big back then. It still is. It still is. But now, you know, you know, you got a little— a lot more to worry about with drones and stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. Actually, yesterday we brought these, um— were you involved in— were drones big when you left?

They were just coming in. They were just being teeny quite a bit. Now it's like, it's one of the deadliest things in the battlefield, obviously.

Dude, holy shit. I did this, uh, I did this little, um, we made a piece of content yesterday and we brought these, uh, drone operators from Ukraine down.

Oh, that's—

down.

Yeah, those guys know what they're doing, dude.

Holy shit. So they, they kind of briefed us up on everything they're doing. I had no— I had never— I've never seen it on the— closest thing to drone warfare I've seen is a fucking Predator overhead.

Yep.

You know, but none of these like FPV drones or anything. So we go We, um, brought them on, on this property, over 100 acres. They gave us, you know, hey, this is the, this is the drones, these are the capabilities, these are these type of drones. And, uh, they're like, all right, go hide, we'll give you a head start, and then they'll send the drones after you.

And you can't—

it's, dude, holy shit, you can't hear where the fuck they're at.

Nope.

You— I mean, like, it sounds like they're right above you and they're over there, and it's impossible to get the fuck away from those.

Yeah, I, I've—

I took some shots at one just for the hell— I just wanted to see what the sight picture was like, and there's no way in hell you— I mean, you're basically trying to hit a 4-inch dot.

Then they just came out with a particular ammunition I, I read somewhere for drones that you could shoot out like a 5.56 or whatever too, and, uh, but it still seems like pretty hokey to me because it shoots in a pattern. Well, the one round splits into like 4 little rounds. Yeah, even if you try to jam them, you know what I mean? I think they still already pre-programmed for what they're going to do, where they're going to go. And the tethered ones are the big problem too.

Yeah, well, I mean, once they— once you're identified, you're fucked. Yeah, because I mean, I like— I just had a pistol with me. I was like, you know, just, just for the hell of it, I was like, I just want to see— I just want to put myself in the fucking scenario and actually take it seriously. And, you know, I was like listening to their tactics and shit at the beginning on how they find people and all the different capabilities and, uh, what the weaknesses are. So I was trying to utilize some of that stuff. And but once, once they're on you, you're, you're fucked.

Done.

Like, doesn't Doesn't— if you, if you shoot one down, there's just going to be a swarm of them coming.

20 more of them. Yeah.

And they were even saying that you can have one on station or more than one on station and have the same pilot controlling multiples. So you could, you know, fly 10 damn drones and have 9 on station and just— oh, that one went down, another one, switch to the next one. You know what I mean? And they're already hovering on station just waiting for it.

Waiting to bounce.

Yeah, I was like, this is—

that's nuts.

You're fucked.

A shotgun, even a shotgun, you know, you don't even have that many shells to go through, you know what I mean? Maybe hit one, but by that time you got one coming behind you too. It's— yeah, it's a whole— yeah, different battlefield. Like we always say, like getting back to the STT thing, that's where they really teach you, well, the diving and then shoot, move, and communicate. And now you gotta really stay low, move with discretion, and definitely have somebody watching your six or somebody that's going to— yeah, because the drones are the biggest. I mean, for what I'm hearing now and all this stuff, because I've been out of the game for a while and then talking to people that are— that know a lot about it, it's— yeah, it's a different battlefield. Definitely.

It's pretty wild.

Yep. It's pretty wild because, as you said, yeah, back then in, you know, the beginning of OEF and OIF, all we had were, yeah, Predators, Dracos up there, and not— and now they're They're kind of outdated.

Yeah, the— I mean, these things, one of them was like that big. Yeah, said it can go 300 kilometers an hour. I think it's fucking crazy.

That's insane.

But, um, I actually— I could be off on that. But anyways, back to you.

Back to me.

STT.

Yep. AP Hill, then the diving, and then Yep. Got my first platoon.

How was that?

It was actually a pretty good deal because they usually don't give like new guys out of STT back. Like I said, with the Winter Warfare platoons, right? So we go to Alaska and do telemark skiing. You learn how to live out of a backpack for freaking almost 11 days unsupported. And so I got into a Winter Warfare platoon and great, great people in there. My first dive buddy was Tommy Valentine, who unfortunately passed away quite a time back in a jumping accident in Arizona. Or, uh, yeah, but, uh, yeah, he was my first swim buddy. He was a freaking stud, all in all the time. Awesome, awesome dude. Um, I learned a lot. You're pretty much trying to gather, trying to see, like we talked about earlier, like, hey, who do I want Who do I want to be like? You know what I mean? And yeah, Val was definitely one of those guys. He led by example. Hardcore, super incredible combat diver too. And like, we take that shit for granted nowadays, right? How much water is in the desert? But yeah, super squared away. Pretty much everything he did.

Where was your deployment?

We went to our first trip. Well, they moved the command. Well, not the command, the unit from Scotland. Yeah, we moved on over to Italy. Brindisi, the heel of the boot. Because we were staged there just to go over back and forth to Bosnia, to Syria, or Kosovo for whatever, just to work with other little units over there. We really weren't doing much as far as combat-wise. And teammate did a couple ship takedowns in the Adriatic around that time. To enforce the embargo. Like I said, this is back in the '90s. And then we went to Norway, which was a blast.

I've heard those are awesome.

We went there for a month. And yeah, the funny thing is, I go— I'm raised my whole life, right, thinking I'm Polish and Lithuanian. My first trip to Norway, I get there, we're talking to the Marine Yeagers. They're like, they're version of SEALs, great, incredible people. They're like, are you Scandinavian? Are you like Norwegian? Like, you got a big head. You kind of like, you look like us. And I'm like, no, dude, I'm not. No, I'm like Polish and freaking, I think Lithuanian, you know. But back then, sure enough, I get my freaking, uh, the 23andMe or whatever, the DNA check done, comes back, hey, you're 80, it's like 78% from, and like in Norway, that area, like it's right over there. Kind of a little bit to the UK. And my mom is also the same. Like, my dad— is he even my dad? No, he is. But yeah, he don't have any— like, I don't have anything that my dad has in him from his DNA. It's weird. Well, like, the ethnicity traits or whatever you want to call them.

Yeah.

But going back to the first trip to Norway, and they're like, dude, are you Norwegian? I'm like, nah. Like, You look like you could be, you know what I mean? They were like, this is back in '93, '94. And like, nope. And yep, sure enough, I am. But Norway was a blast, man. A lot of skiing. Those guys are born with freaking skis on their feet. I mean, jump turning with 80-pound rucks on with the tele-skis on. Holy cow. We're just too busy picking ourselves up off the snow, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Damn.

Damn. What was going on? I mean, I know what was going on, but did you wind up going to Bosnia? Kosovo?

Yeah, we go to Sarajevo, hang out there. Actually, that's where I started, uh, made a couple of good friends with a couple of CCTs, combat controllers, over there from— yeah, we just drive around to various, like, safe houses there, hang out there, bring them food and stuff, and come back. It was a lot of driving around, not too much.

What was the point? What was the mission?

Dude, back then, right, we— it's funny how America goes to one extreme. We were protecting Muslims from getting killed by Christians, right? The Serbs and all that. And I really wasn't clear what the mission was over there. I really— it was just—

sounds like every fucking war.

Going after, uh, I'm not really sure what the fuck we're going after. Pifwicks and like the, um, person wanted for war crimes or whatever, like these generals that were in charge of the mass freaking graves and stuff and killing just in like towns of people, you know what I mean? Yeah, but that was very like genocide going on. Yeah, a lot of genocide. Yep. Yeah, humanity could be evil at times, man.

So what— I'm just curious, I mean, this was, uh, I don't want to relate our experiences, but this sounds similar to when I joined. What, what was your impression of the SEAL Teams? Were you fired up? Were you disappointed? I mean, you got— this all came off of Rambo in 1982.

Yes, it did. It did.

You're not doing Rambo stuff?

No. Yeah, not yet. I, I think I was just along for the ride, like waiting for something to happen, you know what I mean? And the training was fun, but we made— obviously, you know, we make things that people pay to do for fun suck. Like jumping, like, dude, oh, we'll go skydiving. Like, dude, I don't care if I ever see a rig again, you know, diving. Like, oh, it's not the fun of staring at a compass board, freaking depth gage, and a stopwatch for freaking 2 hours underwater and freezing your ass off, right? But you learn a lot and you want to be good at it. Yeah, right. You don't want to be subpar, especially the biggest thing is not letting your teammates down. I think that was so the brotherhood, and you know, you definitely see from the beginning once you're in, once you get kind of established in your role and you build that trust. But as far as being bored, yeah, it was as far as like not actually doing what you're training to do. I think that's kind of what was going on in the past couple of years too, as well, with guys just getting bored and wanting to just, you know, but you got to be careful what you ask for too.

You got to be careful what you ask for.

So you You spent some time. How long were you at Team 2 before you decided?

8 years.

Oh, 8 years.

Yeah. There's something— glad you brought that up. Something that's not on that piece of paper right there. So I got out in '98 for 8 months. I got out. I was going to be a U.S. Marshal. A couple of my buddies from Team 4 I already went over and doing it. I went through the whole process, got out, moved to Connecticut, moved back home because I thought I was going to work out of New Haven. Guy I went to high school with is a marshal. He was the head marshal at the time. A guy I went to high school with, his dad's best friend. So he's like, come up. Yeah, come up here. You move up here. And I'm waiting to hear back. From the Marshal Service about when I'm going to go to Glencoe, you know, to start up school on there, Fleet Sea, whatever. And then I get a letter back then, before emails and all that. We're sorry to tell you that you're no longer considered for it. And I went through the interview and went through that, like, you're going to see the fucking SEAL teams to become a marshal.

And then they denied you. But can I rewind for a minute? Why did you want to leave the SEAL teams to become a U.S. marshal?

My daughter was born. I don't want to deploy anymore for no reason. Just what we were talking about earlier as far as like, you know, being bored where it really wasn't anything going on. And I thought it would be cool, you know what I mean? And just talking to other buddies too, like, hey, it's better than being an FBI agent because you don't got as much red tape to cut if you want to do— this is back then, you know. Yeah. And I got the— it says you're no longer being considered for the position. And I called up one of my buddies, he's like, yeah, dude, it's a whole— they're doing a whole scrub. They're— it was at that time, it was kind of like because I look the way I am and who I am, who I am, I wasn't going through with that class. I'll just leave it at that. So I'm like, shit, what am I gonna do? Like, I got a newborn. And my buddy's like, hey, the federal prison's hiring in Danbury, Connecticut. And I'm like, what? It'd be a— holy shit— be a freaking CO, right? And so I go I go interview for that job, 23, 24 years old, and I'm like, yeah, I guess I could do it.

And it just went from male prison to female prison. Medium security federal correctional institution in Danbury, Connecticut. And they're like, dude, you sure you want this job? Like, I need something, man. Whether I start off as a GS-7 or GS-8, whatever. I'm like, yeah, yeah. I just got out of the Navy. I got in, a buddy of mine who was also in my first platoon, he got out. This is where I'm going with this. He moved to Florida to be an EMT. And we've talked back and forth. He's like, he's like, fuck this. I'm going back in the Navy. And back then, so this is, I don't know where I'm going with this, but anyway, I worked in the PR, I go to, I go to Glencoe for the training down in Florida at Fleet Sea where they train the federal COs. And there was— that was fun. Only one, one other dude knew what I did prior. Like, I just kept it on the down low. He was a Marine, and we both worked at the same prison, but we both went to training together. And when you're down there, you shoot like a Ruger 9mm, the old freaking AR-15s, and a shotgun, a pump shotgun.

And yeah, it was, it was a good time. It was a pretty— the shotgun story. I got to tell it though. That's what— so this, you line up in like a couple lines when you're shooting everything else, you're on line, a shotgun, you're getting like a 2 lines. Cause I think, I don't know, they wanted to save money for shells or it's just something. And it was like a Remington 870, I think a pretty basic pump gun. And there was a lady, a DEA agent that was an instructor there. Right. And I'm just having a good— I'm like, dude, I'm like, what? This is going to be funny. So because she's like milking everybody through it, like, hey, this is what you do. Like, you put one in the chamber this way and then you load it like that. And she's like, all right, be careful. It kicks a little. Right. And I get up there and I'm like, I'm like, fuck. I'm like, dude, I'm acting like I'm all nervous and shit. And he was trying not to laugh, right? And she's like, hey, just relax, just relax. And like, dude, I mean, John Shaw taught us how to shoot shotguns, you know what I mean?

I grabbed the shell, I go put it in backwards, you know, the brass facing there. She's like, no, no, no, no, no, it goes up. I drop it.

You did this shit on purpose?

I drop it, and then I load up, and she's like, okay, be careful, you know. Kicks a little, and like the way they're showing how to shoot, like boom. So boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Give it back to her. She called me a fucking asshole. And the guy behind me was laughing. I'm like, dude, I just wanted to have fun with it. And one of our, one of our instructors, like he started laughing his freaking ass off because it was, it was a pretty— the way it went down, you had to be there to see it, but it was pretty fucking obvious. She was like Be careful. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm a little nervous.

That's awesome.

But yeah, I did that for 8 months. I found out my buddy went back in the Navy, and I'm like, dude, I can't do this anymore. So I called up— I'll call him Mad Dog. A lot of people are gonna know who he is. And, um, he was working. Another great guy, another great role model growing up. Taught me how to ski, actually, while growing up in the teens. And I'm like, hey, are you taking— I'm like, can I go back? And he goes, I knew you'd be calling back. I knew you'd be calling back. I'm like, are they taking— he's like, yeah, you got to go see your recruiter. I'm like, what? I just can't— he goes, yeah, you got to go see your recruiter. And this is before SO was actually a rate. I was still a quartermaster. So I went to the same recruiting office. I went in freaking, dude, 10 years ago when I first started talking to him when I was in middle— in high school. And obviously the same recruiters aren't in there. And like, hey, I want to go back to the Navy. But they called it a NAVVET.

Like, I'm a NAVVET. I want to go back. And like, what did you do? I was like, I was a quartermaster. I think I was second class. And he gets up, he calls a detailer. He's like, no, they're not. No, they're not taking you back. I said, my NEC is 5326. And dude, I'm wearing Tevas. Torn shorts and like freaking beat up t-shirt. And he's like, you're a fucking SEAL? He goes, oh yeah, they're taking you guys back. And that was another little journey. So I had to go back to MEPS, the Military Entrance Processing Station up in Springfield, the same one I went to before. And my recruiter drove me up there. Well, the recruiter I was working with, he drove— I had to do the duck walk, go through the whole physical again to get in there. And then when we're standing there to swear in, I'm like talking to this kid. Hey, what are you going to the Navy for? He goes, I think I'm going to go to BUD/S. You know, I want to be a SEAL. I'm like, I heard that's tough as shit, man. Like, it's, it's a pretty, it's a pretty hard, you know, line of work to choose.

And my recruiter's like, Jay, leave him alone. Like, don't be it. You know, I said, we'll talk, we'll talk about it afterwards. So it was going through the whole recruiting thing again, going through the whole damn freaking— and yep, I came in 2 weeks later. I was in a platoon with DJ's dad, my platoon chief. Yep.

How was that?

It was good. It was a fun— it was a good time. It was good. It was good. Just getting back in, man. It was just good getting— being around, you know, going to work. I'm not saying— going to work at FCI for like 8 months and then having that broken service and then realizing, you know, how much you do miss— like the biggest thing you miss when you leave are the guys, right? The boy. So getting back in right into another Winter Warfare platoon. Yeah, right on. It was— and then, yeah, 2 years later I screened for, uh, damn, that Dev Group.

Well, before we dive into Dev Group, let's take a quick break. All right, perfect. If you've ever hired somebody like I'm in the middle of doing right now, You know, this can be extremely overwhelming. You put a job posting out and the next thing you know, you have 2,000 resumes all wanting to be the next producer. Well, if you're hiring, here's the good news. You can now review all these resumes and applicants faster thanks to ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested quality candidates first. And today You can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/srs. What I really like is it cuts through the noise. Their matching technology brings the right people to you faster, and with this new feature, the candidates who are actually interested rise to the top. You're not wasting time guessing, you're getting straight to the people who want the job, and you even get a better sense of who they are because candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with ZipRecruiter. 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

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Hi, I'm Sarah Adams, the host of Vigilance Elite's The Watch Floor, where we highlight what matters. It became a permissive state. Explain to you why it matters and then aim to leave you feeling better informed than you were before you hit play. Terrorists, hostile intelligence agencies, organized crime. Not everything is urgent, but this show will focus on what is need to know, not just what is nice to know.

All right, Jason, we're back from the break. We left off at— you took a quick— you took a— you took another break from the SEAL Teams, became a correctional officer, went back to Team 2 for about another 2 years, and now you're— sounds like you're getting ready to scream for Development Group, also known as SEAL Team Six.

Yes, I, um, I wanted to go over there to take a break.

So you wanted to go over there to take a break?

Yes.

Did you tell them that in your screening?

No, I'm just kidding. No, I wanted to go over there to stop because my daughter once again was young and I was never home. Just wanted to stop with the 6-month deployments and I'm like, go over there. I had a bunch of my buddies went over there and they're like, it's great, you know, you hang around for 3 months just carrying a beeper on you back then. And then you train, you do some very specialized training, you know, for another 3 months. You get to go to schools you wanted to go, like civilian schools, great shooting schools, you know, lockpick and all that stuff, and at a very high level. and then you train with your team back then, or squadron now, for another 3 months. So you're home quite a bit except for when you're picking and choosing what training you want to go do. And, uh, this is what you were told? Yeah, this is pre-9/11.

Yeah. Yep.

And I, I finished the training program there in September 2001.

And yeah, well, hold on, let's talk about the screening.

The Green Team. Yeah, it's definitely more cerebral than like you would say like in BUD/S as far as the shoot and move and communicating part of it.

I mean, when you got in, when you got, you know, went through, went through Green Team, I mean, I'm not a fucking DEVGRU guy so I can't talk shit, but I know what I saw when I was in and I got out in 2006. And they went from running one Green Team a year to running two Green Team a year, and it seemed like the majority made it through Green Team. I think it was a completely different scenario when you got in because there was nothing going on. Retention was probably really good. Yeah, guys weren't dying, so there wasn't really much to fill. So it was really, really fucking hard to get in there. Harder Probably should shut my mouth because I'm not one of them.

No, no, but I get your point. Even when I went over here to screen, when I said— I was like, I wasn't impressed by the attitudes of some of the guys over there, you know what I mean? They're like more high and mighty than you were, you know what I mean? We have guys coming over there that were— that have done real-world shitboardings, you know what I mean? Real-world operations, either Bosnia, Kosovo. And we knew that the guys at the command really weren't doing anything except hanging around and maybe go grab a person wanted for crime, and that was the big thing. Or, you know, take down a ship that gets hijacked or whatever. And I wasn't impressed by the attitude because they were like, oh, like this fucking new guy, you wear your blues when you go over to your screen and do your interview and all that stuff. And it was just like, you're arrogant dudes, pompous and arrogant. And you get then even after Green Team, you could kind of see why they are, because you do get some pretty good training, like really good training. And but as you said, once again, there's— there wasn't much going on.

And then 9/11 happened and they weren't taking anybody though, were they?

I mean, they were taking like very few people before September 11th.

Yeah, it's a good ol' boy network, you know what I mean? They go around, they ask everybody you work with in you dump a tune with. And if you don't, if you don't like somebody, I just give a reason why. Because there are a lot of great guys that don't come over to the command because they just don't want to deal with the bullshit, you know what I mean? Back then. And then when we got busy and started growing, yeah, that's when they were— because we were gone, I mean, quite a bit. Yeah, the 3-color teams were, yeah, 4 months, 4 months, 4 months, you know, then you rotate. Every 4 months.

How was Green Team?

It was, uh, it was challenging. Safety is a big thing there in doing things at a very high level, you know, being able to shoot well. It's a big thing. Safety violations, I said, is the biggest thing that gets people shaken from there. Not being able to think, shooting an unknown instead of, you know, what you're supposed to do in the house. That was the, I think, the most challenging part for people going through the training. Jumping, they take it at a very high level too. Can't go one degree off heading when you exit the plane. You got to be able to fly a tight formation under canopy. And everything, the diving, it was pretty, you know, at a high level. Because you're not just in pairs anymore, you're diving as a whole group. So—

oh no, shit.

Yeah, with a little pull.

Yeah, right, right on. So you get through Green Team, where do you go from there?

Um, I went right into a squadron, and then— well, a team back then— and then we, we punched out to Afghanistan.

Which squadron?

Red.

Red Squadron. Is that where you met this, huh?

I met him a few years after that when he came there. Yes.

Okay.

Yep.

Red Squadron. And you graduated?

It was Green Team. It was Red Team back then, and then they started calling them squadrons to mate up with our Army counterparts at CAG. Gotcha. Because they were squadrons, so they're like, hey, team anymore.

And gotcha.

We're just making squadrons for the higher-ups at JSOC to make it easier for them.

And so you graduated Green Team right before September 11th?

Right during.

Right during.

We were going, we were walking across the compound when the first plane hit. And I remember one of my buddies comes out of the locker room. He's like, dude, you hear what happened? And that's what we had. Just like phones weren't that big back then either. We were just watching the news inside the team room or inside our training room. And then another plane hit. Then our skippers like called a meeting for all the cadre in all the class and kind of gave a lowdown on what's going down. And that's when he said, there's another plane they're tracking down right now after one hit the Pentagon. And, uh, yeah, it was kind of, it was exciting. It was an exciting time, I think. But then it was, you know, this is, shit's about ready to get real.

What'd your wife think?

She was worried. Obviously all the wives were. Yeah, that first deployment wasn't really good for the wife network. Yeah. When we first— when we first punched out over there.

So you— hold on, hold on. So you get done with Green Team.

What?

And then you go right to Red Team, right to Afghanistan? Yes. Yep.

Well, we had a few weeks in between and we were working on stuff that we might be doing over there as far as insertion techniques, like jumping, how we're going to work, freaking getting our gear set up. Because it was a first move for, I mean, I mean, going to Afghanistan, right? It just, it just kicked off and we wanted to be sure.

Were you the first squadron to go?

No, no, second.

What were you guys doing? What was the mission going to be?

Hunting down bin Laden was the big one. Obviously, when we first got over there, looking for him all over his network of people and yeah, just trying to find him. And that was our big mission when we first went over there.

Well, let's talk about flying in there. I mean, you just had what, roughly a 10-year career at SEAL Team 2?

Yeah. Yep.

8 years. 8 years at SEAL Team 2 with an 8-month break. You joined the SEAL Teams because of Rambo in 1982. Yep. And now you're stepping foot in a country that just— where TerraCell is, that just fucking hit the Twin Towers and Pentagon.

Yeah. Yeah. We flew over there. That was freaking entertaining too. The crew that I was with, the team, the boat crew, and like a little squad, you call it, pretty in the teams. We moved around, we call ourselves the Orphans. We moved around from— we landed, we got in Kandahar, and then we went to a couple other small towns. We were living out of a backpack eating MREs for almost 4 months.

Holy shit.

And then, yeah, just standing by trying to get— develop intelligence to actually track down people in this network. And then we— they had a big, a big military offensive, Operation Anaconda. It happened during our first pump over there where we lost Neil Roberts, Fifi, Chappie, the controller. And, uh, yeah, that was—

you were there for that?

I was one. We were on the other ridge.

Yeah. Holy shit. Let's go into that.

Well, getting into that was even funny because My chief, my boat crew leader, we call him Crazy Horse. He's like, Jay, are you still up on your JTAC stuff? And because he comes out of a meeting, right? And we're just messing with our gear. Like I said, we were moving everywhere. And he wanted to know if I was still— could you— because I was a communicator too, as well, in my platoons I've done. And I'm like, yeah. He goes, dude, you know how to use like 117 Foxtrot? Yeah, dude. He's like, I'm like, why? We had no idea what was going on. He goes, I'm trying to get us some work. We were an assault team. We weren't a recce team, but they wanted to put up, they're like, well, we got snipers in here. We get with 10-inch barrels too. It was stupid, but it was 2 hours. You got 2 hours. Go do your radio checks, meet up with Al, who was our freaking, our comm support guy. Not a team guy, but a very smart, incredible guy. And get a DMC-125 satellite antenna, the donkey dick, your UHF. I'm like, 2 hours, and then we got to pack out rucks for— we think we're gonna be out there 7 to 10 days.

And guys weren't really sure, like, how to pack out a winter ruck because it was freaking cold and we were at 10,000 feet, most of it, not between 9 and 10,000 feet. So yeah, we're doing— I'm doing radio checks as we're getting on the freaking 47 to go in.

I'm like, oh shit, so wait a second, they're sending a fucking assault team in to do sniper work with 2 hours of prep time?

Yes, it was just— it was one of those things, hey, it's better let's go do something instead of not doing anything, right? And yeah, we inserted up on this point. It was, uh, jumped off the Rapidats, set up our freaking OP site as TF Mountain. It was the 82nd, 101st Airborne as they were moving to clear out this valley. And we just called in CAS for a week. And then one night that March 4th anniversary just, just passed. That was, yeah, when Neil and his team with Slavi and a couple other guys, that's when they inserted and got lit up and where Fifi fell off and ended up dying.

I just interviewed Pete Blaber about this.

I think he was— yeah, he was out there as part of— didn't he write a book? He did.

Yeah. He did.

Yep.

He was with the Delta Unit that was there before.

Mm-hmm.

How do you feel about that now?

I thought it was— we helped out a lot. We did. I mean, we supported, you know, the big movement with TF Mountain or whatever, the 100. Yeah, those guys. And it was— I didn't feel good when, you know, we found out that Fifi passed away. You know, all of our CAS went to them and then we kind of— yeah, we took it out on the Taliban the next day, put it that way, just with more CAS. And yeah.

Were you the one calling the CAS in?

Yes.

How did that feel?

It was—

I mean, you're on your first operation that's gone kinetic, I'm assuming.

Yes. Well, big time kinetic. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a fucking huge operation of cut your teeth on, dude.

Yeah, you know, kind of. Yeah, we're calling— we had shoot B-52s, B-1s, 18s, 15s. Yeah.

Do you remember the first cash you called where you killed somebody?

Uh, yeah, it was right there with B-52s on a DISCA site, actually.

Can you describe?

We had short— we had shorty rifles too, which was Yeah, our post-op debrief on that was, all right, we do this again, we got to do it a lot better.

But can you describe your first CAS?

It was pretty, it was actually, I mean, pretty dramatic. I mean, as far as what a B-52 could drop, you know what I mean? And pretty accurate too. I mean, describe everything.

What were you hitting?

It was a dishka position in the town that was a good maybe 2,000, 3,000 meters from us. And but we'd see these guys come up, start lighting up the 101st, 82nd. We had them all graded out already. And we were doing this with a GPS and a rangefinder back and forth. There's a lot, yeah, there's a lot better ways to do it nowadays, but it was super accurate as soon as you give, you know, the modified 9-line. To the pilot or the controller up there in the B-52. They, they programmed where the JDAM is going to go and yeah, took it out. Then freaking 4 hours later, another guy would come out of the— there was a big cave system. It's called the Whale. And yeah, the guys would just come, come out of that and just like refill the roll and just keep doing it. They were like little ants. You know what I mean?

It was How did it feel to— for your first gas?

I felt successful. It felt good. It was just work, you know what I mean? It's just pretty much what it's about.

That's it. How many bombs do you think you dropped?

Oh my goodness. That was a long time ago. A lot. That's all I know. A lot. Yeah, I got to read— I got to read the post-op we did. It was, yeah, a pretty good amount of munitions.

I'll bet.

Yep.

What was the sentiment like after Neil died?

Oh, revenge, I think. You know what I mean? And, uh, yeah, that whole thing, yeah, was— I mean, it was tough too, because the guys that I was with, the other 4 dudes that knew him really well— I knew him from 2, then he, he came over to the command before I did. And the two guys that I was with were really good buddies of him. And when his call sign came back, that's who fell off the helicopter, they're like, shit. And at this time, yeah, getting back to the wives being home, at this time we didn't even talk. Yeah, we didn't even, we haven't talked to anybody for like almost a month from home. So they were kind of worried. And then that hit the news and our command did not know how to deal with that. They were hearing about Neil before the command told anybody. And when we got out of the field, I'll never forget Al, like I said, our comm guy, we get out and we're going in the Gardez mud pit and he's throwing his two Iridium phones. He's like, call home. Like, call home now. The wife network is losing their freaking mind.

So that was a big lesson learned too for the command after, yeah, after Fifi passed.

What came after that deployment?

Um, well, during that deployment we did another good little Wolverine, which was a good, a good little operation and ended up working out perfectly. We're going after, uh, Zawahiri and his bodyguards, and that was a perfect L-shape. Once again, the Orphans had to run around with a perfect good L-shaped ambush set up with two.47s. and Zawahiri wasn't there. But, uh, yeah, we got the mission accomplished as far as dealing with the detail.

What was that mission about?

Going after—

going after their bodyguards.

Bin Laden's— well, we thought he was going to be with them too, and the intel wasn't that great.

Where was that at?

Right outside of Gardez.

Do you want to describe it? What was your role in that?

I was an assaulter. Yeah, it was— we rolled up on in the 47s and, um, like an L-shaped ambush. They said they had squatter— oh, this is a funny story. Well, not funny. They said they had squatters up on another ridgeline and like somebody that they thought was fleeing from part of that motorcade that we ambushed. And we—

wait, you ambushed a motorcade?

Yeah.

How'd you do that?

The motorcade with 247s.

Okay.

We caught them right when they were doing the little traverse up at the timing in the TF-160th. Guys are freaking awesome, man. They're— yeah, the way it was set up too in the LZs, the landing zones they put them on, it just happened to be perfect. And the guys that we were going after didn't even— I don't even think they knew what— they started shooting and bailing out of the vehicle, but by the vehicles. There's 3 of them, but after that it was over. Then we went after squatters, and it was just a farmer in the field. And I was the first one off the ramp. I'll never forget, I got my 2 buddies standing next to me in disguise. We get back in the 47, take off, go land right next to where the guy— the crew chief's yelling at us where this guy's at. I get off, I look at him, and he's got his hands in. So I'm thinking, okay, maybe he's got a suicide vest on, an S vest. And he's walking, he keeps walking towards us. And my buddy next to me, he's like, dude, I'm like, dude, don't. Once again, this is where you got to be a thinker, right?

You just don't like blast somebody to freaking do it. So I let 3 rounds rip by his feet and he falls over on his back like a freaking upside down turtle, hands in the air. We go zip tie him and my buddy was just getting ready to drill him. He was just a farmer out there, a goat herder, you know what I mean? And We took him down, dropped him off after we found out who he was. And but that made me feel really good, you know what I mean? Not because it could have gone another way, which would have been, hey, that's the fog of war. But yeah, that was something I remember really good about. I mean, specifically about that, that I was comfortable with at that time.

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Yeah, but it was a lot of sitting around waiting, you know what I mean? Like waiting to do something, getting approval to do something. And then, yeah, we went through 3 times. Wasn't really that busy. I was going to go to the training cell until one of my chiefs said, dude, you want to go to Iraq? And, uh, yes, I want to go to Iraq because I just, I've heard the stories. From Greeno. It's everything a team guy wants to do. Get up at night, eat, eat, uh, dinner for breakfast, and then walk out to the birds. You could go, go do your work, come back and do it again, maybe all night. But yeah, Abrak was, I think, what every team guy at that time, the type of operations they wanted to do, just going out and getting busy.

No shit, what year was this?

2003 and 2004.

Same squadron? Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, we sent a couple other guys. We would do the crossbreeding. Like, we sent a couple guys from our— I think even this did it from the newer guys actually to go work with CAG, with Delta Force guys. And then we do it back and forth. And we took a lot of lessons learned too and brought that into our training in our SOPs, the way we operated, coming from each side. Like, you ever remember doing a hot hallway in training?

Oh yeah.

Right. That's one of the stupidest things you could do, right? Just run all the way down there instead of, you know, maybe crashing or throwing a grenade. And we learned that lesson the hard way from a couple squadron guys in the Army.

No shit. So did you augment over there?

No.

No.

Yeah.

You went over there with the, with DEVGR.

Yes. Yep.

How was it? Was it what it was cracked up to be?

Yeah, it was. It was an, um, yeah, we were busy, you know, but it was everything like I said earlier that you kind of want. Yeah, man. Hey, you just load up, come up with a game plan. It got to the point like the first couple of times when you're planning to go, you know, go to work. You, it's, you overthink things a little bit too much until you get like a little bit nervous. And, but then when you, once you keep doing it more and more and more, it's, it just becomes second nature. Like you could go, all right, we got to go take this down. And our officers wouldn't even come in there. They let the team leaders figure out, okay, yeah, I got the white side again, got the green side, blue side, whatever, boom. Just go to work. But it was great. And then walk out to the Little Birds or '60s, '47s, and the targets would change all the time depending on the intel and what we had, what we had going on over there. Just going after you guys, going after, just going after bad guys, just going after, yeah, just bad dudes, shit that were coming over from, yeah, different places to different, you know, different countries.

And not only just in Iraq itself.

How many targets are you guys hitting a night?

It would depend on the follow-ons. Some nights 1, some nights 5. It just depended on what we got off one target, if we even landed on the right building, and— or if they moved somewhere else. And that's where the ISR assets were great too, helping us out. And getting back to— we're talking about the drone war now— that with drone warfare, it'd probably be so much easier to actually pinpoint and not mistakenly hit targets. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what did you— so now you're doing close quarters combat.

Mm-hmm.

Lots of action. You got a wife, a kid at home. Mm-hmm. What's going through your head during all this?

You don't even think about them. They're— yeah, you can't let that distraction get in your way, you know. That's where people make mistakes. Like, when you leave home, it's— yeah, it's all right. As soon as that gate closes, you walk in there, like, yeah, if you, if you think about that, you're gonna let your boys down, you know what I mean?

Compartmentalize it.

Yep, you could compartmentalize it just like you do losing a teammate. You gotta compartmentalize it and put it in the cupboard and try not to let it peek itself out. Keep keep the COVID closed.

What about the cadence? Cadence of ops? Are you keeping up?

Yeah.

You feel good about it?

Yeah, it was back in that time. It was what, what we wanted to do, like what we were trained to do. But the cadence was there. Definitely.

Yeah. Do you remember your first kill?

Yeah, it was on a rooftop. I mean, I want to talk about that, but yeah, it was— yeah, it was because we were a recce team. We climb up buildings and, uh, yeah, I don't know if that was my first one. Once again, you compartmentalize that too. But yeah, guy with a gun on the roof, sneaking over the side as our assault team was coming up. Yeah, we'd like to climb buildings there, the recce guys.

Did the killing bother you?

No, no. I mean, of course it's going to bother you if you sit back and like think about it, right? But no, I mean, it was just— that's work and you're doing it to save— if you put it in their mindset and like, hey, I'm protecting my guys right now. And that's pretty much what we did a lot of as a recce team. I'm covering my guys, protecting them. And that's, you don't, you just don't think about, yeah, the actual action that you just did.

Anything else you want to talk about on that deployment?

Um, shit, I was, they all kind of blend together. Oh, getting to, yeah, I want to talk about one good buddy of mine. I'm not going to say his name. He'll know. One of the best operators I ever worked with. And, uh, we were on the roof. This is actually a pretty funny story. I told you I was carrying an SR-25K.

Mm-hmm.

And this was supposed to be like a can and like a little, it was going to be almost like a dog and pony op because we were doing a turnover with another color team coming in. This was like our last stop before we went back to the States. And it's going to be super easy, right? Walk in once again, climb a building. There's no cover in the building. It's a flat mud roof. Stupid idea, right? Stupid idea to climb this building. We got Rangers coming down the other side of this canal covered in elephant grass that we're going to take out. We'll take out a tent close by— not take it out, just go in there and see who the heck was in there. So we climb up the building, we're laying there, then we start getting lit up by a building that come to find out was 300 yards away. We start getting lit up from a PKM on top of a freaking car. It looked like it was like a black Mercedes. Then a guy comes out of a a house behind us that starts lighting us up, and we're like, what the fuck?

This was supposed to be easier than this. And we're on a roof like sucking mud. My buddy's standing up and looking through his NODs. I'm like, dude, what are you doing, man? Fearless. And he worked with CAG for a little bit too. They love them over there. I'm like, get the fuck down, man. And he's like, dude, is that a— what is that? Meanwhile, I'm fishing for my inline, for my scope, my night vision for the scope I was carrying. He's still standing up. He's looking. And I put the M-line. He thought I had my 5.56, my recce M4 when I had the 308. And I couldn't see behind. I couldn't really pick out what was going on because there's a big light behind the car where the guy was shooting with PKM. And I'm like, well, I wonder how far that is. And I carry the rifle doped in at 300. So I know my holds for 100 to 500. It's a short barrel 308. Take the shot, the light goes poof, and I'm like, oh, this happened in seconds. Like, dude, they're at 300 yards right as I'm transitioning down to the guy shooting the PKM, who I hit in the shoulder, by the way.

I'm not too proud about it because all I saw was flip-flops. I come to find out they all ducked behind the car, and they— and I'm like, oh, I carry a mag of AP rounds right here too, and they're ducking behind the car. So I fishtail, it's got a big-ass piece of brigger tape on it. I put it in my first round, hits like 20 yards in front of the car. It was— but then I worked it up to the car and then yeah, we took care of business. Come to find out the next day after our turnover, the next night, the people we were turning over with, Blue, they went in and said, yeah, they're like, how do you guys see what they see that well at nighttime shooting and all that? And yeah, we did a pretty good job. Yeah, but that mission was supposed to be like freaking just go in, gather some intel and leave. And that's not the way it worked out.

Damn. Damn. How many times did you go over there?

4.

4 times.

And I left. Yeah. Then we started working out of Ramadi. We started doing, you know, transitioning a lot more around instead of being in Al-Asad. Yeah, we moved all over the place. Then we went to— when it really started getting entertaining, when we brought our forces up just north of Baghdad to Baqubah, and they weren't used to— bad guys weren't used to having people coming at night and do operations up there. And that's right when I got the call to get back to the beach to start flight training for the aviation unit that we have.

No shit. So what is the aviation unit? And how did that pop on your radar?

A bunch of my buddies went over to fly over there. And well, I got a funny story about that. So my first time back from my first pump in OEF, back home, you know, basket leave for 2 weeks. And my chief, my BOKU leader, he's like, Jay, you got to escort the weapons out to Shaw's gun box. I'm like, all right, how do I do that? I'm still a new guy. We just got back from our first trip, our first deployment. When we talked about earlier. And he's like, go over to the airport, to Norfolk International, on the gen— on the other side of the airport. This is back in 2002, 2003, right? And you're gonna see a gate. Go up to that gate, ring the buzzer, whatever. So I drive there, gov pickup truck, weapons in the back, and I see this big dude wearing a polo shirt, khaki pants. He's waving me up. Back up. Throw the guns in the caravan, C-208, little turboprop for a 4-hour flight to Memphis. So we take off and this dude's asking me all kinds of questions about the deployment, like, hey, about Roberts Ridge, what's going on.

I think he's just like some normal dude, right? I'm totally oblivious. I'm like, dude, are you a fucking team guy? He's like, fuck yeah, I am. And, um, he ended up down the road, he was a master chief on freaking Neptune Spear in the Bin Laden because I was trying to get back to freaking big guy. I'm trying to get back to the, to Blue, you know what I mean? And I can't right now. And I'm like, dude, wait, you're, wait, you're freaking flying an airplane? Like, you're a team guide pilot right now flying me to freaking Memphis? So that's when I'm like, well, this is pretty freaking cool. Kind of scary, but pretty cool, you know? And yeah, come to find out that program was developed back in the beginning just to learn how to steal airplanes if you had to do it, if Man, I remember hearing about that shit.

I didn't know it was still going on.

I had no clue at the time either, apparently. Yeah, I didn't know anything about it. And then come find out, yeah, it's a— it's kind of where they sent people that they really didn't want to— it wasn't a good thing to go to, but it was a great trade, a great skill to have, right? They send you to civilian flight school, you, you get your— all your pilot licenses. Even CFI flight instructor licenses, and then you just pass it on.

Why do you say it's not a good place to go?

Well, back then it wasn't because we were at war, and you don't want to be a team guy flying around the United States while your buddies are off, you know, doing work overseas.

So is that, is that what you do?

Well, I was burnt. That was the first time. Oh, you're talking about flying around in the state? Yeah, that's— yep, you just You don't deploy at that time.

Oh shit.

Yeah. You're stuck. Well, they just spent a bunch of money for you to go to school and they do utilize you to a certain extent pretty well.

How do they utilize you?

Flying gear, flying equipment around. Just like it makes the process of moving like weapons from one place to another place easy. And there's one little special program we have for our bigger bird. Our bigger plane that we have there, the 1900, which is used for a lot of special stuff as far— but in the United States, nothing crazy.

Interesting. Is it— I mean, is it still like that?

I think so. I haven't been back there in a little bit. It's been a couple of years.

How many people are involved in that?

8.

That's it?

10. Yeah, it's a good It's a close-knit unit too. I mean, I don't know much. We're talking about it, but what—

I mean, we talked about you wanted a break to be with your daughter. How old is your daughter at this point?

That's 2013.

13 years old. Was that the big reason you wanted to do it?

Yeah. And just get a break from, yeah, just kind of getting, you know, the same routine, some normalcy every 4 months, every 8 months, you know. Yeah. And also building that skill. Because when I went over there, they're like, hey, you're never going to, you're not going to make Master Chief if you don't, you know, take a certain leadership position as a troop chief. And I'm like, no, I'd rather get my pilot trade, you know, than have to worry about making E-9. You know, so, and it turned out to be a smart move and also being home a little bit more. But you do go to flight school for like almost 8 months in Florida. So it's a lot of back and forth.

How did it feel being home after all that?

It felt good. It felt good. We got divorced, of course.

You did get divorced.

Oh yeah. Yep. Yeah, we were separated for like 3 or 4 years and then tried it again and then nope, it just didn't work out. Sorry, typical, typical story about teen guys. Yeah, yeah, 90% success rate at getting divorced.

Are you close with your daughter?

Yes, I try to be closer. We had our little problems when she was like a younger— in her teens, you know what I mean? And when me and her mom were separated, it was kind of— she could pick and choose. Who she wanted to see. Me and her mom really didn't have an ugly divorce at all. We just say, hey, what do you want? What up? But when she was going through that age, yeah, she was a typical teenage girl. And plus I was flying a lot. I was just learning to fly. And yeah, but I'm pretty close to her. Yeah, she lives in Virginia Beach right now.

So you got divorced after the break?

Yes.

What led to that, do you think?

Uh, me being gone, I think. And then also just, yeah, just my wife, my— she said that when I got back from my first trip to Afghanistan, like, something changed.

Y'all better did.

And blame— like, I'm still me, you know what I mean? Because we compartmentalize. Nah, there's something different. Like, nah, I'm good, you know what I mean? You know how we are, our community. Like, we just ignore it and just keep rolling. And some of the people close to you actually see the changes that you choose to ignore happening, I think. And I think that's what led to pretty much— yeah, she was just— yeah.

Is there anything you would change?

Anything I would change?

Yeah.

No, nothing. Nothing. I wouldn't change anything.

How long after you took the break did you wind up getting divorced? Or not took a break?

Well, we were separated for 3 years anyway. And then so it was probably 5, 6 years. We got divorced. Yeah. Like in 2015. Yeah.

Did you feel different when you were coming home from Iraq?

No, I was just worn out.

Did you notice any changes?

I didn't know. She might have noticed. Yeah.

Looking back, do you notice any changes?

Well, hindsight's always 20/20, right? So I think, yeah, there probably— yeah, maybe I was a little more cold, more when I got home, you know what I mean? More— I sound like a psychiatrist now, but I wouldn't say not as caring, but not as emotional. I guess so. That's— I guess that's a side of me she saw that changed pretty much.

So you— do you feel like that you had any PTSD?

No, I did have TBI and I had to go through that with the FAA too. That's another story. But no, not really PTSD. I think we're good at compartmentalizing, you know, certain days like March 4th, like we talked about August 6th. Extortion '17. Yeah, there's certain times where you're like, shit, has it been that long? You know, like, you miss those dudes too. So it's kind of— but then you just move on, right? Because if you dwell on it, it doesn't— does you no good at all. Yeah, you're staring in the bottom of a freaking vodka bottle or something, you know what I mean?

How do you deal with it now?

Just compartmentalize it. Stay busy. Stay busy. I like shooting, you know what I mean? Uh, I'm into cars, motorcycles. That's what I do when I would come back from my deployments. I rebuilt a '93 Mustang in my garage. That was the way I dealt with it. Like, I got back from my first pump in Afghanistan, go out in the garage, work on the car and motorcycle. So I like motorcycles a lot. That's how I deal with it. Keep busy, because if you— a stagnant mind is not something that's good.

Yeah. What kind of motorcycle do you have?

Ducati.

No shit. Now to Harley.

It's a V4, actually. Right on, man.

Fucking A.

No Harley. No, it's Italiano. It's Italian. Right on.

So what did— I mean, what did you think of the aviation unit?

It was good. It was monotonous, you know what I mean? But it was— you learned a lot. Freaking A lot of times you're on call. I'm like, I'm married to Adam Brown. I was flying when Adam Brown, uh, was killed. And, um, yeah, we were on standby then, and my wife knew his wife from doing— she would do her hair, actually. And then I got a phone call from our command at like, yeah, 11 o'clock. Hey, you gotta fly to Arkansas, Hot Springs. My wife heard on the phone and she's, what? "Yeah, no, I don't know." She goes, "That's where so-and-so lives." And at times like that, that's hard too. Flying a K-Team out to tell, you know, to tell the family. And this is like, shoot, right before the year before Extortion. So, but other than that, yeah, the aviation unit was, it was a learning experience, put it that way. And it sets you up for the future too, for if you want to stay with the flying part. And you did? Yeah, till I went to— when I did my last 3 years at the recruiting district, um, I wasn't flying much at all there.

But when I got out, I got— had an opportunity to freaking jump right back into it again.

How was the recruiting duty?

Oh man, dealing with recruiters was, uh, how the fuck you did that? It was— when I first went in there, I told him I had very little respect for that— anybody that could sit behind a desk in the military for a career. And have a rating of a Navy counselor. And then I think it should be a civilian position personally, because they want— like, our job there is to give them quality. All they care about is quantity, right? And you're, and you're screwing with young kids' like futures and lives. And I was glad I went there with the rank that I had as a Senior Chief, because I don't see how like a Second Class, an E-5, could go do that job because they would just get stepped on. As far as, hey, keep giving us bodies, you know what I mean? We're like, we're not going to just sign somebody off. That's how that job got created in our community when they made SO an actual job. SEAL, EOD, diver, rescue swimmer. Yeah, and SWCC. They— recruiters would just, you know, pencil whip their PST scores, and then they sent them up to boot camp where they already spent money on getting this guy up there, going through camp and they bombed the PST, like, why are you sending these guys to us, you know?

And that's where they put in the shit screen at the recruiting level so they would have more qualified candidates go up there. And it was cool, like, going out the way it came in, you know, talking to kids, answering their silly little questions about BUD/S and training, all the book writers' books that I may have read one or two. Do you know about this guy? But it was a rewarding job. It was rewarding, even though I think like maybe 5 kids, I said, they made it through BUD/S, but in 3 years.

Right on. So why did you— what led from the aviation unit to the recruiting?

I wanted to move to Texas.

Why did you want to move to Texas? Because I like—

I used to like it when we trained on there. In the '90s, we trained at Fort Hood, go visit Austin back when it was a nice sleepy college town. It's not anymore, but, uh, I just like the weather there. It does get hot though. The people, the culture when I was there. And it worked out. I didn't even know that job was a job. I called up my detailer and, um, He told me that there's a recruiting job in San Antonio, like working there. And I'm like, what? I don't want to be a recruiter. He goes, no, no, it's a coordinator. I never even heard about it before, once again. And you work with a civilian counterpart that works for Academy. It's like a contractor. So there's two of you. And I had no— zero shore duty as far as every command I was at. I was always on like sea duty, could deploy whenever I want. He's like, dude, I'll hook you up. With, with this job. And that's what made me go to Texas. So I like anywhere— San Antonio, Houston, Dallas— and it covers a humongous district in Texas. San Antonio all the way up to the northwest, all the way down to the south.

Wow. It's huge. A lot of driving. But like I said, it was rewarding. It was rewarding.

I mean, what was it like for you to just totally punch out of that command, out of SEAL Team 6?

That was kind of relieving. No shit. It was kind of relieving. Yeah, it was good just to, yeah, move on and think about the next chapter.

You were done.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. And things started to slow down too a little bit. But, and losing friends, and like when Extortion 17 got shot down, man, I was sitting— I actually flew up to Boston to pick guys up that were training up there, and I'm sitting behind home plate at Fenway Park because I was only one of the top Red Sox and Patriots fans that everybody knew that was up there. They had tickets. So I'm sitting behind home plate and my phone, it was actually this, my phone vibrates and like, he said, "Two Troop." I'm like, "Who?" Like, "Two Troop?" Like, what? It's not sinking in. And that was when, that was August 6th when freaking Extortion 17 got shot down with quite a few of our friends on there. But then, yeah, and that was right around the time I was like, I just wanted to, you know, move on and do a more cushier job.

You were ready.

And the divorce, just wanted to get away from, you know, the area, Hampton Roads area, and start out, start out new. And I had a new girlfriend too, who's now my wife.

Well, congratulations.

Yeah.

How'd you meet her?

That is another interesting story. So before all the book writers, right, the, at our command, we'd have people come down. We knew people in the aviation. This is when I was flying. We knew people in the aviation community, like higher-ups, like some of the guys that founded NetJets, just through doing our recurrent training in LaGuardia Airport. So we'd bring them down for visits. They visit the command. I'll never forget one time we're walking around the command, give them a tour of a room, kind of like, you know, the team room, and then going downstairs showing this monument we're getting built. And one of the head guys of United Technologies, Pratt Whitney, he's like, well, when's it going to be done? And we're like, well, we don't know, we need like 25,000— whenever operations guys is telling them And, uh, he turns around to his assistant and whipped out one of those big, like, notebook checkbooks and writes it in here. It's covered. So through that, he was good buddies with my current wife's best friend's dad. So we met up through that meeting right there. And then it just kind of— a long story short, my wife's going to be pissed.

But her best friend died. And then we— I called her just to say, hey, I'm sorry about it. And then we linked up that way.

Gotcha.

But through that meeting that happened at the command, of course, it was— they got to shoot like freaking.50 cals, the Mardus. They got to shoot grenade launchers. They had a blast. And now they don't do that anymore. I can't even get on the command anymore because of the notoriety. But they were very happy. And yeah. It was pretty cool the way that went down with, you know, taking care of the memorial that they were building for the command. Just this one guy writing a check. It was pretty— it impressed me too. And they were happy with their experience there.

Right on. What was it like for you separating out of the Navy?

You're ready.

I mean, it sounds like you're 100% ready.

Yeah, yep. Well, I was offered a job to actually fly by a great company out of California, Solaris Aviation, and I thought they were rolling the dice with me too as well because it's flying a jet and all I have been flying is turboprops, twin turboprops. It's like a jet with a prop on it anyway. So the CEO there, he gave me the opportunity to, uh, he's like, dude, I'll give you a job right now in Van Nuys or Teterboro. I'm like, no, I'm not leaving Texas. Something pops up in Texas, let me know. Like, 2 weeks before I retired, a Gulfstream job popped up, and I got to freaking go to initial training for it. And it was a little bit easier than flying a prop. Things just move a little bit quicker. And then I rolled right into that.

You like flying a Gulfstream?

Yeah, it's, it's a gorgeous airplane. It's a gorgeous plane. All the Gulfstreams are. We fly a 550 though. It's a beautiful airplane.

Right on, man.

And then it started— yep, I did that. And then I flew for another guy out of Austin, uh, single turboprop PC-12, which is a gorgeous plane. They're, they're incredible. And the guy was one of the best guys I ever flew for in my life. Then I got hired by a big freight company and did that for a little bit and kind of taking a break and just working with my buddy out of North Carolina.

Right on, man. How do you— I mean, how long? So you got out in 2019?

Yes, retired.

Do you miss it?

I miss the boys. I miss the fellas, you know what I mean? I do. But when I think back, do I really miss it that much? Not really. I mean, I miss some of the cool things we did, you know, but I was ready at that time. I'mma be— I have replaced shoulder, my knee, my back's jacked up. Freaking— yeah, it's— it took a toll, you know what I mean? And mentally, it takes a toll on you. Yeah, it takes a toll. Yeah, especially with the FAA, it takes a toll.

What do you mean by that?

We went to Isle of Man. I got back, and I'm trying to help other people out with this, right? I got back from Isle of Man going through the mail. We went there for the TT races, the motorcycle races there. It's freaking incredible experience in itself. But I'm going through the mail and I go, oh, I never get a letter from the FAA. Open it up like, hey, we see you're a disabled vet. I'm like, yeah. And you got to tell us everything that's on your VA letter. And I'm like, well, when I take my physical every 6 months, I check off like the stuff that bothers me. I didn't even know about half the stuff that was on my VA letter. And I read it like, oh, oh, oh, because it's kind of like a blanket one we had. Yeah, long story. So I go through everything that's on there, like, well, you got TBI, PTSD, this frickin' sleep apnea, all this other stuff, and I gotta go get it taken care of. So I see a great doctor in Savannah, Georgia. He has me go through everything. I go through all the testing.

Smoke it. I mean, my brain is like fried going through the neuropsych testing. And then I end up answering questions to a bunch of other guys that are disabled vets that are pilots that are going through the same thing. But a lot of these guys, they keep trying to push for more disability, right? But they don't report it to the FAA. We check everything off every 6 months when we get our flight physicals through our docs. And there's a box in there, are you disabled? And boom, you check it and you get fill out, you put in it everything you have and you're good to go. Some guys are lying, they got in trouble, they got caught. And what's weird is they're worried about some of the veterans, right, that are, that are on there. And you can walk around the flight operations area and see like a 5'4", 350-pound man pilot walking around. Like, I'd be worried about that guy more than be worried about, you know, having a vet flying an airplane. Yeah.

What do you think they're worried about, vets flying airplanes?

I don't know. Well, disabled vets.

Yeah. Interesting.

Well, some— I mean, there are some crazy people out there, not even vets, you know what I mean, that do stupid shit. So.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you're a grandpa now?

Yep.

How's that?

I don't see them that often, but when I do, it's cool. The one, the littlest one, Braxton, he's a, he's a terror. And, uh, yeah, Tofers are— they're both good kids. They're good kids. They're crazy. They're good, right? Yeah, it was weird. That wasn't planned either. So yeah, right on. Yeah, they're good. They're good kids. I spoil them when I see them, you know what I mean? That's pretty much what you get. I'm looking forward to getting them out in Texas, do some shooting. I already bought them, uh, like a little.22, a little Tomcat, whatever.

Nice.

The little can on it. Yeah.

Nice.

I'm looking forward to that.

Maybe you can get them behind that.300 Blackout there.

Yeah. In a couple more years. I don't want to give it to Braxton. He might turn around and shoot me with it. Oh, shit.

Oh, man. You want to go break that thing in?

Mm-hmm.

Well, before we do, what do you got coming up next? Anything?

Anything exciting? Nah, this is a big step for me. I'll tell you that coming in here and talking to you. And thanks for the opportunity.

My pleasure, Jason.

I got recurrent training next week, so that's my next big step. Right on, man.

Well, I wish you the best of luck.

Thank you. Thank you, man.

Cheers.

Thanks.

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