Transcript of How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's gonna be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in. What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self?

I think it's being concerned what other people think and a feeling of the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. Mhmm. And that's just not true. We're all everyone has the capability to make great things, and none of us are special. It seems like a

lot of people they're focused on what other people think, like you said. And it almost it it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess. So they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me and say, I want to write a book. And I ask them, how long have you been had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing?

And And some people will say 5, 7, 10 years. But they've been worried about what people think, or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

I think taking action is a really great thing and not not setting up barriers of entry. Like, I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar, or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no, barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background.

So in punk rock, it was a do it yourself mentality. And, you know, I started my first record company not knowing not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them.

I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you wanna make a record, you make a record. So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a 7 inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else.

I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission

Mhmm. To actually make their art.

To make their art. Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book if you write a book, or set the stage to to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made. When you did those when you printed those first 500 singles,

what was your dream or your vision? Was it okay. Now I'm gonna how do I sell these? How do am I gonna give them away for free? What was the process for you?

Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another 1. That was always any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another 1, it's a success.

But at this point, you know, you're a sustainable product for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

It's still I still think in those terms, so I want I feel like I wanna make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on not because of an endowment.

Yeah. That's interesting.

I know you're I don't know why. I don't know why this, but I that's just my and maybe it's just the way I was brought up It may just

be What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and being true to themselves, whatever that is. Feeling feeling their truths.

And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

It's a it's just a feeling. I can feel it.

Yeah. I think something that you said was I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me.

Yes. So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, something doesn't feel right.

It starts with a feeling always. I it starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling if there's a reason. Like, if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay.

This feels like this. Can can I is there a way to figure out why? Mhmm. Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't.

And if you can figure out why or if you think you know why, then you can say, could it be this, this, or this? Let's try those things. See what happens.

Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you say, okay. Let's do this. We're gonna work together. Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety. Really? Always. Because I don't know what's gonna happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in to start.

And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go. And it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an ex you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm gonna do something.

I can't do anything. You

know? Right.

It's like, it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen. So it but then usually within sometimes it's the 1st day, sometimes it's the 3rd day, sometimes it's the 2nd week, where something happens like, woah. What was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue.

It's like, oh, this is this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. It may that may be the first inclination. It could start that way, and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The the work itself tells us where it wants to go.

So because we have the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it. That's what's

There's no control. None. And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's gonna do well. I need to make money. I need to make the label happy.

Whatever it is. My my fans need to love this. Then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you?

No. Because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page. Even the even the people we're ignoring the, you know, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now. Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins.

It's just that no 1 involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me, there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. Mhmm. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our plane. Interesting.

And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They they want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game.

From the flow. From the practice, putting in the reps. Yeah. Showing up.

And then I say, well, if then it's up

to you. What's more important? To please them or to win? Man, this is fascinating. Was there, was there what was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced where just, like, everything was lining up.

Authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every every day. And it was also it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off.

The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success. And he'd been dropped from 2 labels. And when I signed him, he didn't he didn't even know why I was interested. That really was a conversation. It's like, what what do you why do you think working with you is gonna be any different than working with anyone else?

Like, he had given up. And to for him to get into it, we recorded in my living room, And he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time. We were just looking for songs.

So he was playing these songs. It was almost like a way for us to to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing, or a song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio.

We picked some of those songs. We went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound it didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album.

Again, we just set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful, and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since 19 fifties. Wow. So that was a and after that, after the success of that album, we made 5 more albums together. And he had confidence

Right.

Based on the experience of the first 1, which he'd expected nobody to care about, really took took hold with people. And then on I think it was on our 4th or 5th album, he did a cover of hurt, the 9 Inch Nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life. Wow. And, and that was a real revelation.

How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice. But then they lack the confidence in the game, and they look like an average player. Yeah. Does that is that the same thing with with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians where there's they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, then on the confidence, does that hold people back?

Have you seen that?

I'll say it's it's not as simple as that because there's a there's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's a it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination.

It's almost like what I'm hearing you said, this is really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like you just gotta if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.

That's true. There's I'll say though to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence.

Yes.

It's just part of the it's a hard thing to do. I just couldn't imagine doing it. That's true. My a friend

of mine, just, Rachel Platten, she just she wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really popular over the last 6 or 7 years. But she had, you know, she started a family over the last 5 years. So she got 2 2 young kids. And, I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. So she came out and she's like, guys, I'm actually really nervous.

And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man with these new songs in a while and I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability which was actually beautiful. Yes. It was like we're rooting for her. You know, she she messed up a few times, but she kept going.

And she's like, hey, I'm gonna restart this. And thank you guys, you know. But it was like, wow. And it made moments of, like, awe and magic happen. Yes.

He was so cool.

Yes. And and it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the it's what it's what's not ordinary. If it was if it was machine like perfect, it's not so interesting.

It's cookie cutter.

Right.

It's all the same. So it's the it's the edges. It's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

Talk about transcendence. You talk about manifestation, and the universe. I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for?

I learned when I was 14, and, it's been a a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it con continually. Mhmm. But I go through phases of 5 years on, 2 years off

Mhmm.

Or or something might replace it. That's another kind of a meditation. Like, I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi. Yes. Tai Chi will be will fill the slot of my TM time.

Right. Transcendental meditation. Yeah. If you could go back to your 40 year old self, what would the the number 1 piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the products you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then?

I would always say just have as much fun as possible because we, I'm a workaholic by nature. And I love making things and I love making good things. And a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And, and I'm hard on myself in that way and that I have high expectations. And I think we can have fun too.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. What brings you

the most joy? I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach, laughing together, reading together, watching movies together. Mhmm.

You know, watching wrestling. You know, I like pro wrestling watching Yeah. Of course. Pro wrestling with my son. It's fun.

That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or a UFC now?

Always been pro wrestling. Yeah. UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

They do hurt each other.

That's why I like wrestling. It's like it's more, everybody's on the same side Right. For it to be the best show.

They want it

to be a win win. Yeah.

It's a win win.

Yeah. You talked about that in in, you know, this documentary series about, you know I love the video of you being, like, the ultimate promoter with the BC boys in a commercial, like, just being this hype man promoter. Like, you know, how much has, I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

A lot. A lot. Because it's, it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery. And great skill is involved in what they're doing.

And there's a story. And and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends. You know, it's like, we don't know.

But sometimes they really do hate each other. And then the matches are different when they really hate each other. But you never know when it is. So there's this there's a sense of, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling

For real.

Because it's the most like the world. In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on a, you know, airs or a performance. A mask.

Yeah. Or the politician talks, and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. So there's this, like, performative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like.

We say that the you know, wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake, and wrestling is real. That's what it

is. I wanted to go back into what you talked about with, you know, you mentioned transcendence and I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer, with this, you know, particular song, the system of down. What is your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in you know, artists should be thinking in that way?

Or what's your thoughts on it?

I believe in it, a 1000000%. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So I so when I say it's like, I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out.

Uh-huh.

And that ends up being a manifestation mindset. But it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it. I want it to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it.

And the results have shown me that you can manifest things. It happens. But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome. Oh, what do you mean? I'm never asking for a result.

What What

are you asking for?

I'm asking for to to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, But I didn't know most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means it's it's a devotional.

It's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.

Wow.

If you're making if you're making a gift to God, there's no greater, you can't put more into it than that. Uh-huh. You know, you can't What about the single? What about what about what someone's gonna say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God that there's you're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe.

Wow. That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness.

Yeah.

Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for.

Uh-huh. But

I've come to realize what it is.

Wow. You you have a whole, you know, kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which is which I loved your explanation there. That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say, is a is a is a pure gift of yours to God.

Yes. And it's a it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do. This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.

Mhmm.

If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be? I don't think there's a formula. Is there an art to manifesting?

I don't know. I don't I I think, it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a a a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do and then really dedicating yourself.

How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing. Because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing. Maybe it's the right time now. Maybe it's 5, 10 years away from now.

How do how do we really tap into that knowing?

I think it's it's it's situational. And I think the again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you. It it it directs you. An example, I may have 3 different ideas that I'm I'm excited about, And I kind of get them all going. And then 1 of them just seems to take off on its own.

And 1 of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators, impossible some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time.

Interesting. Because, you know, I I love this, and I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday. Yeah.

I do.

The obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of, like, when the obstacle is there, it presents itself Yes. And you also feel like this is something you wanna do, like, you've gotta kind of go through that pain and then, you know, to overcome it.

That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle, But I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently and there's another path Right. That's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them, you know

Go for the effortless way. Yeah. Well,

pay attention. See when when is the universe giving you a push? When is the when is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I I I'm I'm I would never suggest not fighting through the work.

It's it's it's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now's not the time.

Uh-huh. Yeah.

It's like all everything you throw at it gets deflected.

Right. But this other thing is guiding you.

Taking its own taking on its own life. Yeah. Earlier, you you asked about, what I perceive to be a shortcut.

And

a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing? And I think that the real question is how much more can I give to the thing I'm making? Right. What else can I give to it? And and thinking in terms of how much more can we do, not how much less can we do.

It's not about shortcuts. It's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a 4 hour work week. I loved it.

Right. You know, I

loved it, but that stopped it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be. Commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is. Yeah. That's beautiful, man.

And so do you so you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great?

Doing anything that's within our power, if it it doesn't have to make sense, nothing has to make sense. You know, could be, would I wear these purple socks? I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter.

Don't question it. Just do whatever works. Do it.

How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative feedback versus people are gonna like it or hate it or whatever they're gonna respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it no matter what happens to it in the world?

I will say before releasing, it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of there's this maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible unease, and I think usually before releasing an album, there's this awful purge of, like, cortisol that happens, and, like, you know, I've I've talked to a lot of artists about this where, like, you're you're in tears before the before it happens, and you're exhausted, and this catharsis that you'd hoped you you would get from it never arrives, you know. And No. So, there is that. I think there has to be, maybe there's just there is some resource that you pull from that brings you to a place where you are in absolute commitment to the fact that they that the the work needs to exist.

You

know? That it is it doesn't matter what anybody has to say. Something the song wants to be written. The song has, in some ways, and I sometimes think of it like this when an idea comes through, the song is asking to be written. It feels ready to be to be worked on, and to deny it that is is kind of it's it's it's it's going against your nature, which you know you kinda have to do, what you have decided you're here to do.

So there's something that is willing to be made. It's it's willing itself to be made through you, and it's like you either f do it or don't. Right. But don't sorry, excuse me. Don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea because there's a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well too.

And somebody else is gonna put something similar out.

Exactly. Yeah. That that actually happens. I mean artists talk about this. I've certainly experienced it.

You have an idea for a song and 6 months later, you hear it on the radio and somebody else's somebody else's has played with the the themes that you were thinking of. And it's we're all living in the same similar societies or or, you know, it's so it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we all have very similar similar, similar, whatever it is. But you you have to there has I don't know. There is a there is a resource that you pull from that that is just, you know, that needs to be made. Like, what was it like, you know, when you came out with your first song,

that was a mega hit? What was the feeling before that launched

Mhmm.

Versus, you know, the most recent, Unreal on Earth? You know, is the feeling still the same, You know, 12 years later, is there a different feeling at this season of life as an artist, you know, before you launch the the recent album?

And the feeling on the first song, I was so like, I was such an unknown and that I just was watching its uptake slowly but surely, there was these moments where, okay, it was reaching another audience, so it's like, oh my God, it's like that the video has been seen by 10,000 people, oh my God, that was a huge deal for me at the time, and I think it was like, it was like on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know, it was huge, you know, and then it was, then it was starting to be played, I think some of the earliest, I think 1 of the first radio stations that played it in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio, And, like, it was being Shazamed, and we were watching, like, somebody was telling me, oh, yeah. It's just been Shazamed in, like, parts of the world parts of the States that I I've I've never been to the States. Mhmm. I'd never thought that it would I would be where the music would be heard. There's at this at this point people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist, you know.

Really? Yeah. Honestly. They they I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they they assumed that I was an like an American import, you know, that I wasn't, they didn't know that I was from Ireland, because I hadn't been releasing music all that long. And then there was this kind of, this kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, on on in that song.

This kind of swampy sort of vibe. And then, yeah, so it's different, you know, I think that you there's sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit, you know There's a lot to be said for having Something

to that feeling, right?

Yeah, having nothing to lose

The naive, like, oh, this is really exciting,'

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and feeling like every every inch you gain is a is a is a is a huge deal and is a big win and you've nothing to lose. And you you have you can prove everything, but also if nothing happens, it's like, it's okay.

You know, go away, come back when you're when you're ready. You know what I mean? But it's so it's trying to maintain that maybe there's there's something to be you can still maintain that sort of mindset a little bit of, like, of I think when you and this is also maybe something that you can, it's good to to to practice or to to to investigate or think about, is when the stakes seem higher, or you've, like, on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you, that it's somehow, you know. It could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's, but we had you create this idea. I don't know.

You just you want more from it or you you know? So that's How

do you navigate that? Like, when you launch, you know, an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind, like, well, I hope it does this many downloads or streams in the 1st month or year. Yeah. If it doesn't do that or if it does do that, how do you navigate that expectation?

I think it's always just about I try to just bring myself right back to because you you do and you you look, you work with you partner up with business, like labels and stuff like that and

And they wanted to win.

You know, yeah. And they're they're competitive by nature and and and it's great that you have a team that that that thinks like that. That wants to bring your work to to a to a large audience. And there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this, independent artists maybe, you know, and what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I wanna give it every chance that it can it can reach as many years as possible, and let those years decide, and I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it?

If I believe in it and I love it, enough that I feel it's it's worth releasing, it's worth being out in the world, I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or it doesn't. I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it. There's some songs that I'm quite proud of such that if they were if they weren't heard by a 100 people I'd I would say that song is still of the quality, that I wanted it to be. The quality of the work doesn't change whether it's listened to, listened by a 1000000 people or a 1000000000 times or it's listened by a 1000, 1000 people or a 100 people or 10 people. The quality of the work doesn't change.

Wow.

So I just try to bring it down to am I happy with the with its quality.

That's beautiful. I think that's a good, lesson for any artist

Yeah.

Or author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes. If you have a career or a business around it, sure you wanna figure a way to make money and survive. But I think you have to be proud of the quality of work no matter if it sells millions of copies or 1 copy.

Totally. Totally. Does it represent you?

That's beautiful. Yeah. Man, Andrew, there's a lot I would love to talk more about with you. We'll have to have you back on another time, but I want people to check out your your new album, Unreal on Earth. I want them to to come to watch you live on tour, man.

Yeah. Which I'm

gonna do 1

of these days. Please do.

They can they can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that is right. Yes.

Yeah. Tour dates. Unfortunately, I I not many shows left. Left. I put it.

I think you get notified when you do do more. Exactly. Exactly. I'm curious. In the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success and experience, and and making all this art?

And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today?

Stuff I've learned about myself is I mean, I've I've done a lot of personal personal work. I've I I used to think that realizing that creating maybe this is 1 thing I can offer. Being creative and creating. And my relationship with with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself, you know. What do you mean by that?

That it's a thing. It's like whether it's self doubt or it's self criticism an internal monolog that is that is largely negative. Something I took for granted my whole my whole life. It didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I when I realized I I honestly felt I was never gonna write another song. Really?

Yeah. Sometimes during the pandemic, I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore. And I felt I'd I'd written my very last song. And and I I had to come round to, okay, no, this is this is this is just it's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me, you know. So I think that was, you know, in the pandemic, that was part of

able to tour. You weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that tour is a distraction, but you weren't able to you you had to sit still now Yeah. And hear everything coming in.

Yeah. And in in some ways, tour is a a magnificent distraction. And it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires, you know. And every day is another little crisis, you know. And, you know, I still get I would say would you call it stage fright?

But, like, I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terror you know what I mean? Every day is like Really? Oh, yeah. 10 minutes more stage.

Yeah. I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Come on. Yeah. Yeah. There's an element of, like, nerves and and like, I am not able I you know, I'm not able to to to do this. It's so funny.

I was joking with some of the band, and this is maybe a magician thing. We're 2 week we had a a few weeks break. I was a month into a couple of weeks after break, and I was I was trying to think and this is maybe because a lot of playing is muscle memory. You don't think about when it's automatic, You know? But I was I was trying to think to myself.

I was like, how do I play that song on guitar? I said, I cannot visualize. Or I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement. So but yeah.

No. There is there's, there is there is always this creeping voice that's, you know and it's look. It's immaterial. You you you find your way around it. You find your way to step over it, you know, and you and you ground yourself and stuff.

But, yeah. But in in in so but creatively, I think when you are exactly as you describe, there was no distractions, like, in during the pandemic. So but tour tour is there's plenty. There's always something to do, whether it's press, promo, you know, meetings. I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time, so it's looking at artwork, media edits, mixes, mastering.

And I'm constantly, I'll be honest, like, constantly a little bit overwhelmed. Like, just a little bit under overwhelmed, you know. And, like, I'm just the nose is, like, you know You're all

the line.

It's a nostril, you know. I can

barely breathe, but I'm

Yeah. Yeah. And part of me, you know, is also realizing, okay. Is this is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here?

Interesting. And Because because you didn't wanna face yourself, maybe. Yeah. You just yeah. You operate operate well in that space, or at least you function in that way.

But yeah. Maybe it's not well,

but you're, like, you're operating.

Yeah. You're operating. Or you're you're yeah. You're operating. You're getting everything that needs to

be done done. So pandemic hits and you that all stops, and you have to face yourself.

I guess so. Yeah.

What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour, you weren't seeing people, and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet?

I can't I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a there was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of it's just aloneness, you know what I mean? Just a sort of a very, like, a a, you know and I think I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is is, you know, will be familiar with it, but it's this kind of I just slowed down in all in all in all forms, and I just felt no rouge. I I saw no ability to to write nor it was and any any attempt to make it was seemed impossible. I also fully believe and this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not, I did not know how to write a song.

Despite all evidence against it. I was like, oh, no, I actually don't know how to do this.

So How many songs have you written at this 0,

like, you know, maybe probably, you know, over a 100 or, you know, obviously ones that don't get released. Right. Like, yeah, but like, it's not like, it is something I do do all the time. But there's something enters into the mind and then I realize it's like, oh, no. This has nothing to do with this.

This is something else. So, again, it's about relationship itself, you know. And and so that was something I learned.

What was your relationship with yourself like?

I think I I didn't have much of 1, you know. So, and I it was more just realizing, okay, I'm gonna have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know. And actually, kinda, put, you know, begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself and my son actually. So that was the beginning of of of, 1 of the more significant changes in in my life, I would say, is is tending to actually, you know, by the time I was 30, actually, like, like, tending to, let's say, mental health, and a relationship with self, and, which I had, I had just avoided doing, you know, because I could sort of, I felt like maybe I could work my way around it. Sure.

I could I could, you know? But once you can't run anymore, you know, it's I'd sometimes describe it as a hamster wheel had to stop spinning. You know what I mean? And so then you're forced to sit in your little cage. You know what I mean?

So and Wow. Kinda look around and take it in and go, okay. Something not right about this.

What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing yourself?

I think I think it was I'd say you could say it was it was, defined by a I had a very largely a combative relationship with myself. So I was absolutely at war with myself constantly. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that be?

It's like I couldn't have a thought without an without an opposing thought. You know? So it's like my brain was kinda split in 2 that it I'd have a thought and then a thought to come back with that.

So it's like No. That's not real. That's not true. This is the real truth. This is real.

Yeah. Going back and forth.

Yeah. Or it's and but when in at at at times I'm like I guess like your state you know, you're not always sometimes you're a 7, some days are a 3, some days are a 9, some days are, you know. Creatively, it's like that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful. No, it's not You know, so you, I couldn't hold I couldn't hold with 1 thought, at the same time, often times So it was challenging I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of, like, my whole experience, but, that's probably for another, you know, You know, for him But, but no, it definitely put roadblocks up, you know, and I mean, so that was a big change when I started to address that.

How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't I mean, I don't know correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland growing up there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity and, you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the 1st 30 years of your life?

There wasn't. There wasn't really, you know. And and especially, it's not something even, I mean, more so my parents generation would have had any sort of, not really, you know, not in a kind of a this is something we can talk about, it's a day to day thing, you know.

Can I suck it up unless I talk about it and keep moving forward and just everything's good?

Very 19 seventies. You know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Very 16 seventies. Yeah. But I'm I'm very grateful to sort of to to to have access to to a more to be more present in in in the day to day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just, yeah. Just having this kind of Wow, man.

Yeah. So you're allowed I mean, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I wrote a whole book called The Mask of Masculinity. Okay. Yep. 7 years ago now?

Yeah. Where because growing up, I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man. I could never cry. I could never show my emotions in school, sports, and it tormented me inside. You know, it tormented me emotionally feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong.

Mhmm. But it wasn't my truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate therapy myself and reflect and heal. And it's it was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

And open myself up to myself. Turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them.

Mhmm.

And start to heal the the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of, and started to integrate my current self with my younger self Mhmm. And and and mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the nervous system. Yeah. They had to create alignment Yeah. With the present and the now.

And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free. And as I'm sure you're you're in it right now, healing as a journey, and I'm 10 years deep in the healing work, and I've never felt more free also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I still go to therapy every month.

I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way. And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art. And and I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering, it seems like Mhmm. Rather than peace and joy. Mhmm.

But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself and just a a probably a messy process.

Yeah. I the whole sharing from or writing from also, let me just I just want to address. It's like, thank you thank you for for for sharing that. And it's it's it's it is it's beautiful. It's also it's it's it's very similar to what you what you described, and I think I was 30 also.

It took me 30 years of living in a way where where I realized, oh, I can't do this anymore.

Oh, yeah.

I can't live like this anymore. And I've waited too long to feel like I I can, I can cope? You know what

I mean? And and, it isn't interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for?

Yeah. 100%. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. But I think a lot of people I don't think that's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that. You were being an artist and it took off. Yeah.

But I think a lot of people in society in the world are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have, you know, flashier things or success to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something. Yeah. And the more I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem. Mhmm. Yeah.

You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point. Totally. And I I

think it's largely unconscious, this driving. You know what I mean? This but that sort of thing of dry and I do think about this a lot whether would I be driven to be, you know, because surely the work it's this question. Surely the work is enough. Like, so if I just if I just loved songs, and I just wanted to write them, do I need everybody to hear them?

You know, what's what's what's the plan?

Why you on tour? Why do this? Why do yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, why did I why

did I need it? So there is I I sometimes wonder, you know, what what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what what, you know, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view. I'm not saying everybody. I'm just saying, generally, there is I think you you might be correct in that. There were there is a there we're all all of us are driven in some way from maybe some some unobserved place that that in some way, and all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved.

All my, you know, we all imagine this picture in our in our heads, you know, of of that arrival point that just never comes. Or you get there, you'll see the picture and it will align with the picture in your mind, And then you and but the feeling is is is not there.

But it's still not enough. You still want more. Yeah. Are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing? Oh, they're getting this opportunity.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And it's something, you shared about about, you know, that thing. It's kind of that self parenting thing about gaining relationship with yourself as a child.

A friend of mine once described described it quite quite beautifully, I have to say, of like, getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them Cool. And to to stand in space either whether through the the window of their of their home or at some event that they were at, and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there. To say, hey, look, you know, look where we are. You did this, you know. And I'm quite moved by that just to just to bring your child into that and go like because there's some there's some sometimes there's a there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, no, I took I took myself away from these circumstances, and I did all of this on my own.

But to turn around to your kid and say, hey, you know, I want you to see this. Wow. And how how great you did, you know, and how you you did this, you know, we did this together. Isn't this cool? And just to to let your kid sort of smile at that.

That's beautiful.

And, yeah, and I think it's that 1, I think that's a life changing relationship thing, you know, I think with yourself, if you can do that. But again, yeah, I mean, I had no language for this until I was after A few years ago?

Yeah.

Until a couple of years ago. So I'm still why my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know? Yeah.

Wow, man. This is beautiful. I'm so happy you're talking about this though. It is. And don't feel and and, you know, don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough.

And you may never need to do that publicly either. It's just

I appreciate it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not a it's not a pressure here for that in any way. But it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. That's what I'm hearing you say.

Yeah. I think I think so. I think so. I'm also I'm realizing that it's it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like, it's like to not do it, I think when you start on that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself, you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option.

You know? Or or not, you know or it's an option, but you've done that. You know what I mean? Or or for for what what's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life and you feel the the experience of living that you would like to get to, it's like you realize, okay, I I just kinda have to do this.

What do you think, Andrew, is available for you emotionally, internally, and externally in the world as you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself? What do you feel like is available for you or your mission? I think it's this is maybe not just necessary for the for the work as well too for being creative. I just wanna walk in step with myself

in a way that that feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work. Yeah. You know? And

and to to, I guess, to feel at peace in in whatever the the work is that needs to be made. Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to where you fall afterwards? That's not really what I wanted to do or but I did it for ego or because whatever reason

It happens. I won't give examples. Sure. It happens or you catch yourself you catch yourself on the thought of, like, yeah, there's always this sort of 1 more stone, to turn. You know, it's like I always approached things with, like, leave no stone unturned.

It's like, you know, just Do everything.

Yeah. And I'll Every opportunity.

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Or That can be draining and exhausting, right, right? Draining.

Yeah. And learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with. Yeah. Or a habit of. I think, yeah.

Or I'm I'm a I'm a real and I think this is an I'm proud of this training myself, but that extra hour that I'll put in or that 30 minutes or that extra hour, I can I can focus hyperfocus on something in that in those last few, you know, but but what happens is sometimes I'll agree to to do something? I'll be fully in my mind, like, I do want to do this. It's like, will you do a little bit extra here and add more, rather than take this break, will I use this time to work? And it's like, yeah, I'll do that, I'll do that. And then in afterwards, I realize, okay, why am I why am I feeling exhausted?

Yeah.

You know,

when I'm burnt down, and now I can't function, you know, I can't work as I

want to

work, you know. So I I do wanna I do wanna address, you know, hopefully get better at the best. Wow.

This I'm I'm this has been a powerful section, so I'm grateful for talking about this, but I have a question about, a couple of other things around your performance experience. I feel like I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. I'm curious for you. What has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different here? I'm feeling something different.

There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to. Or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or Mhmm. I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the words. Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe inspiring while performing?

There's definitely moving moving experiences. I was gonna joke that I think the the spiritual, experiences for to be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've and I've I've been in such elation. I've been, like, so ecstatic and kinda lifted by being in crowd energy, and all enjoying the same thing. And maybe like, I was gonna make a joke.

It's like it's a the preacher is the least spiritual of all people. You know? Person at the at the at the person at the top. It's everyone else is engaging in the spiritual experience

of the half.

Preacher is is I'm just kidding. But it's like but I think when I'm on stage, there's a kind of a flow state, you know, that you hope to to come into, and it that's another thing where it's, like, calming, mind, and this is all connected. It's all connected with mental health. It's all connected with, like, wellness, but then also, like, mindfulness as well too. And mindfulness was a big change for me.

It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was. You know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just yeah. It would it would it can happen. It can happen. And and realizing I I, you know, have to to remaining grounded on stage, remaining present on stage.

So you're not, so so meditating before shows, I find really, really helpful.

How would you get distracted on stage before?

It can happen where, again, if I'm releasing music, there's a lot of emails that I haven't unaddressed. I swear to God

Right before you're like, oh, thinking about it or

Yeah. But you could be on stage in the middle of a song, playing a chord, and singing, lyrics. And in your mind, I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I have an email back.

Come on.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Holy cow.

Yeah. Oh, no. You're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of, like, singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing and

How's that even possible? How do you stay I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you had to send to Larry Yeah. And and management or salespeople?

It's it's not great. It's like and I don't I think that I think the show potentially my worry is that the show I think because it's muscle memory. Uh-huh. That you just can do it. But it's it's it doesn't you don't feel great about the about the show.

You don't because you weren't present in it. You know? So it's been a while now since I would there's also that's kinda before that's when my mind was totally just, like, haywire. So mindfulness, you know, meditation and stuff, and I'm

super happy. That helps you keep pre keep it present now on stage.

On stage. Yeah.

I think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity, more peace, more presence, more compassion, more self awareness, and it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has. Yeah. I would say emotion is energy in motion.

Mhmm.

So it has to move. And if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us, and it can become disease. Mhmm. You know, disease, or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason. Right.

So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body, and there's many modalities to do that. You can do breath work. You can, you know, do yoga. You can go to boxing even and have an intention behind your practice. You can, I don't know, meditate or therapy?

There's plenty of avenues, but 1 that is, underused is creativity. You can create and move the energy, and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else, and you can feel energetically lighter and more free.

What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process, that is giving you the most healing personally? Like, when you wrote it, you felt you were healing. Every time you read it or perform it, you feel like you're healing. What is that poem?

Well, I have 2 immediate answers that come to mind. The first 1 is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer.

Okay.

And the real answer is gonna sound cliche, but it's everyone and then the next 1, the 1 that hasn't been written. Because it's the most current and in real time to my life, and whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express. It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience, so I'm not thinking what other people wanna hear. I'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality, and I put it down on paper.

And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space.

Interesting.

So every single 1 is a healing process. And it's 1 of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing.

Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, how do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them. If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So so how then do we get down to the source of them?

So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem, or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from?

That is a great question. What you have to do is you have to hold 2 truths in the same space at the same time.

Give me an example personally.

Holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness Mhmm. And gratitude, but I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the piece, so the piece was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray Wow.

Simultaneously. And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen, to really, like, see and be seen, to be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength, it's scary as and it is always worth it.

Wow. So when did you write this poem by your dad?

I think I was in my mid twenties.

Really? Yeah. So, like, 20 years ago?

Something like that. 45.

45. Yeah. Yeah.

So when you wrote it, how long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How how long did it take for you to be like, I'm at peace of this. I forgive. I'm at peace.

Well, I think, people think that peace is a destination or like a product. Peace is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself. So right now, I can say I am as fully at peace as I have ever been.

I can't say that I am fully at peace. But 1 thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not, in real time or in retrospect, has become a part of the quilt of who I am. I don't like to compare circumstances. I don't like to compare pain, but I've had a lot of pain in my life. And everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now.

So if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am. Wow. Yeah. And so you have to accept it in order to integrate it, in order to alchemize it, in order to move on with it.

What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe it took you a long time to overcome or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome. And you really wished it didn't happen in the moment. And maybe you still don't wish, but you know you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain.

I think there's a lot of them that come to mind. I'm not gonna share some of them because I'm not ready to put them on display yet. But I go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal. You know, when I created the Never Ending Now album, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it.

I know. Remember You know? I was there. Yeah.

Because you were 1 of the few people that I sent it to

Yeah.

And was willing to trust Mhmm. Because of your integrity, because of our friendship, and because I love you. Yeah. And I know you've been through real things. Yeah.

And so I was like, okay.

But it's scary putting it out there.

A 100%. Yeah. I'm taking my own medicine.

Okay.

You know? So I was like, alright. Let me I finished this thing, this work of art that was, like, a reflection of my path to self love and love with a partner through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that I had with my wife.

Yeah.

And then I was like, I don't know that I wanna show this to people or even weirder, monetize this

thing and

leave it open for people to criticize it, to judge it, to validate it, to compliment it. It it didn't really matter what their response was. I didn't wanna externalize my self worth that way because it was so close to my heart. And then I was like, alright. I'm gonna send it to, like, 5 people.

Mhmm. And I sent it to 5 people, including you and, Mike Posner, who's a great friend. And Mike was the first person that got back to me. And my criteria for sending it out was, okay. If 1 person hears the album and hits me back and says, hey.

This was moving and meaningful to me. Like, this landed. Then I would put it out. Mhmm. But if everybody was like, yeah.

This is good. Right. I really like it. I think you should then I wasn't gonna do it. Mhmm.

And so Mike hit me back right away, and he was, like literally, he goes, if you don't put this album out, he said, I'll pry it out of your cold dead ends. And then I'd sent it to you guys, and you listened to it and had, you know, a similar but different response.

Yeah.

Then I was like, alright. Let me let me lead by example even though it's hard and scary.

Why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment tied to it in some way? Why is that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists?

Because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are. Mhmm. But the thing is, like, if I would get rejected, if I put this project out and people don't respond to it or worse, they really don't like it, then at least I know they don't like something that's really me. I mean, I know that the art is separate from me. It's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it.

Right.

And so I'm like, alright. If they don't like it, at least I know I showed up rather than making something that's perfect that everybody's gonna love. And then they say, wow. I love this thing, and I love you, but I don't even feel it because I was never there.

Yeah. It wasn't fully authentic. It wasn't fully you.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How do you do that? Like, for example, I I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years, striving over here, and the courage that it took to do that. What what was and is your process?

I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, to family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was so depressed. You know, I this this line from, like, Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing. Something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing.

Like you've been wearing some mask. You've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you.

Yeah.

And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid if you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me. Would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me. And then I would be alone and then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life.

That's kind of the fear that I had. And so I think I just felt like I'd rather be alone and no 1 like me than everyone know, you know, just parts of me and not all of me. And I think it got to that point when I hit 30 that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of. And I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people. And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore.

Now it was scary to on the other end because I didn't wanna live alone, and I don't wanna have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there that you may not be liked or understood or loved. You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be, you know, taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear. But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me.

I very much relate to that. I have a line that says, you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like, that disguise thing that you're talking about, that character that you're playing, and you're doing it for good reasons. Survival, you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual.

If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from.

Exactly.

But the thing is it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor.

Draining. What was that what's that poem called that you were just

saying?

Called birdsong. You know, I never really, like, name my my pieces until I actually put them out.

Can you share that 1? You perform that 1? Do you have that 1?

Yeah. I actually do.

The Byrds aren't singing to win a Grammy. They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming. I listen without even understanding. The truth without agenda is authentically astounding.

It makes me think of cheetahs. They don't run for our approval. They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal. It makes me think of wolves. They don't howl for validation.

They don't have to get the perfect pick to post on their vacation. It makes me think of eagles. They're not soaring to impress me. Although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet ski, my point is neither 1 of them would sell me it on Etsy, and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy. Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not.

Wow. Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut and for what?

It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up in this moment. I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough.

I'm dismantling my image. We are perfect in our flaws. Birds don't care whether we listen. They don't wait for our applause. I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the walls.

So if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls. You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. But to truly be yourself, you have to let go of what was. The past is like a prison.

It's an echo repeating just because, because, because we are many people in our lives, so I'm not 1 to judge. But if they love 1 part of you, it's limited to what that does. I want your whole soul. I have no goal. Show me the unseen stuff.

Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect makes me wanna kick my feet up. No one's living in a catalog IKEA dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase a 100 zebras? Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell?

A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly. So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell?

Wow. When did you write that 1?

I don't remember.

Is it, like, a few years ago or is this, like, a decade ago? Do I mean

No. It's, like, a few years ago.

It's more recent.

Yeah. I was on the phone with a friend of mine, and, the birds were just, like, really loud. And during the conversation, I said something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy.

Wow. And then

I thought, you know what? I like that.

That's a good that's a good luck. I paused the conversation.

I wrote it down and then started to build on it later.

Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love?

I think all of them in some form or fashion. But I think some of them are self love. Some of them are romantic love. Some of them are love of God. Some of them are are love of, humanity, nature.

Mhmm. All of it.

What would you say how long have you been doing poetry? Would you say, like, officially, you know, as part of your thing? Not just like, oh, I did it when I was, like, 7, a little bit here and there, but, like, what was the year where you're like, oh, I'm doing this consistently? Do you remember?

I mean, I think I'm past 30 years now.

30 years?

Yeah. It's, like, 1 of the longest, at least internal relationships of my life. Wow. You know, my my relationship with rhythm and rhyme. Mhmm.

Yeah.

What do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn?

Well, it's something that I try to teach other people.

Mhmm.

Like, when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person and why we created this journal, in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there, I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying, don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great. And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn over and over and over again. Because if I sit down and I say, I'm gonna make something great, I'm just getting in my own way.

I'm turning my back on the muse. Mhmm. I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me, are poems where I'm surprised at where they go. Really?

Yeah. Because I don't, like, get overly strategic before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what what fire it turns into.

So it might be, okay. I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea. You know, maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, oh, they're not singing to join a Grammy.

Mhmm.

And you're like, okay. Where could I take this in other areas of life? Is that kinda how it starts? Or

Yeah.

I just The birds are this, the wolves this, the bears the this. You know? It's like, let's keep the analogies going, and then

Yeah. It's like, basically, you're you're building, railroad tracks, and you're the railroad tracks, and you're the train, and you're the conductor.

Uh-huh.

And you're the beginning, middle, and end Interesting. Destination Yeah. Wherever you wind up. And you're also none of those things because you're the the observer. Wow.

So it's a spiritual practice, creativity.

Do you have this other, do you call them poems when you put something online, like an Instagram post? Is that like a short poem, or is that like a phrase within a poem usually?

Well, yes. It's usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is, to be quite honest, very annoying to me. You know? I want, of course, please follow me on Instagram, but it's like I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is, and that's why I'm excited to put out actual, like, finished pieces

that

people can experience on their own time. So it's a great window into my work, but, I'm not sure.

Snippets. It's not the full thing. You have this, you know, poem within a poem, I guess, you call it about love that you've shared recently. It said, love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave.

It relies on your belief, so it will bring you to your knees. Love is weak. Love is lost. Love is grief. Love is loss.

Love is risk. Love is real, but love is worth the pain we feel. Where did that come from?

Let me say the next line. Yes. And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you.

Oh my gosh. Can you share that whole poem?

Yeah. Yeah.

Let me actually give you the behind the Context.

Give me the context.

So I was doing this collaboration piece, and it was, like, a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project. I don't wanna go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter.

Yeah. Yeah.

But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written, and it ends, save the day with love. So we're on this, like, planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing. And 1 of the guys goes, hey. Is there any way we can change the final word? Because he goes, love is a bit soft.

And he goes, I wanna end on something that has more, like, strength and pizzazz. And I was like,

no. Because it's not your poem. First of all Yeah.

Yeah. No. Respectfully. 2nd of all, I don't look at love as soft. I said I look at love as hard.

Mhmm. And he goes, oh, okay. And then the conversation ended, and I hung up, and I wrote this piece. Love is not soft. Love is hard.

Love is not smooth. Love is scarred. Love is not perfect. Love is flawed. Love is not quiet.

Love is loud. Love is not pride. Love is proud. But love is not certain. Love is doubt.

And love is not leaving. Love's turning around. Love's learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle. Love is rough.

Love is not fragile. Love is tough. Love is not thinking that love is enough, so I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up. Love is a revolutionary act. Love is an attack.

Love is not abstract. Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I wanna say no. Love is saying stay when I wanna say go. Love is staying high even when I get low.

Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy. Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong. Love is context.

Love is not black or white. Love is progress because love is not a product. Love is a process. Yes? So in the simple moments, when the chaos fades away, in the silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way and how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way.

It's a miracle to be alive. That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come, and it will leave. It relies on my belief, so it will bring me to my knees. Love is weak.

Love is loss. Love is grief. Love is loss. Love is risk. Love is real, but love is worth the pain I feel.

And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you. I'm gonna love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you. I'm gonna love you harder more than ever before. I'm at peace with knowing love is war.

That's what we're fighting for. So love harder. 1st yourself, then your family, your friends, your coworkers, your neighbors, and your community. Then try to love a stranger. Try to tap into your empathy.

Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy. Now try to love the people that you don't love at all. Even people you don't like, they probably need it most of all. And if you can't love them big, see if you can love them small. See if you can hold compassion for the that they are, and they are.

But love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is scarred. Love is flawed. Love is loud.

Love is proud. Love is doubt. And since love is most important when we do not know how, I will choose to love you harder in the never ending

now. Wow. Oh my god. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you if no 1 has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something

great.