Transcript of 600. CHATHAM HIGH STREET

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But Tom, with Adobe Express's intuitive features like templates, generative AI, and real-time collaboration, it has never been easier. Adobe Express. Try it for free. Search, Adobe Express in the App Store. Tom, we have some incredibly exciting news for our listeners in in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, don't we?

We absolutely do, Dominic, because we are going to be in Belfast, in Dublin, and in Cork next year in April, and we will be talking about the tragic story of Titanic.

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So for your chance to see us on stage, live in Belfast, Dublin or Cork, simply head to therestishistory. Com to get your tickets. Rochester and Chatham are two distinct places, but contiguous, except the interval of a very small marsh or vacancy between Rochester and Chatham. There is little remarkable in Rochester, except the ruins of a very old castle and an ancient, but not extraordinary, cathedral, but the river and its appendices are the most considerable of the kind in the world, this being the chief arsenal of the Royal Navy of Great Britain. The buildings here are indeed like the ships themselves, surprisingly large, and in their several kinds, they're beautiful. The warehouses, or rather, streets of warehouses and storehouses for laying up the naval treasure are the largest in dimension and the most in number that are anywhere to be seen in the world. The rope walk for making cables and the forges for anchors and other ironwork bear a proportion to the rest. As also the wet dock for keeping masts and yards are the greatest size, where they lie sunk in the water to preserve them. The boat yard, the anchor yard, all like the whole monstrously great and extensive.

They're not easily described. So that, Tom, was Daniel Defoe, who was a Londoner, in the first volume of his tour through the whole island of Great Britain, published in 1724. It was a massive success, with the exception of Robinson Cruso. It was by far his best-selling book, but never before has it been read out on the top of Rochester Castle on a gray and slightly dreary day in howling wind to an audience of bored-looking camera people. So very exciting scenes. Yeah.

Because this is the long-awaited episode on Chatham High Street, but not just Chatham High Street, Intra-Chatham, which is the stretch that leads us on to Rochester High Street, and we are on the 100-foot summit of the Keep of Rochester Castle.

So Daniel Defoe, just for people who don't know, Defoe, he wasn't just Britain's novelist novelist. He was one of Britain's greatest journalists, wasn't he? And he did this tour of the whole island of Great Britain, and he published it just a couple of decades after the Act of Union had created a United Kingdom out of England and Scotland. This is a moment in British history like no other. It's a point in which Britain is poised on the brink of absolutely enormous political, economic, diplomatic change.

Absolutely. Defoe essentially loved change. He loved the idea of progress. Progress is very wiggish, isn't it? And although Defoe ended up working essentially as a spy for a Tori government, I think in his instincts, he was all about the wigs. So as a young man, he had fought for the Duke of Monmouth against his uncle, the Catholic King James II, and Monmouth's rebellion had gone disastously badly. But Defoe had managed to avoid being hanged, which is good news for fans of Robinson Cruso and 18th century travelogs around Britain. He'd loved the Glories Revolution when James II got kicked out and replaced by the Protestant William and Mary. And he'd been a big enthusiast for the acts of union between England and Scotland, and had actively worked to promote them, actually.

As you can probably tell from that accent, which is exactly how he spoke, his origins were in trade. He's a mercantile man, isn't he? He'd worked as a wine merchant. That perhaps explains that's one reason why he's so keen on the Royal Navy, the idea of commerce, of Britannia rolling the waves. And of course, he loves a naval dockyard.

He absolutely does. And just to say as well that he He had sailed the seas. He'd been a wine merchant. Dominic, you love a Portuguese wine depot in the 18th century, don't you? And Defoe was always hanging out there. And so it's not surprising, really, that when he comes to Rochester, which he describes as having a castle and cathedral, he looks as it as being rather boring and old. And Chatham, which is where the Royal Dockyards are, he is all over that. He thinks it's incredible. He thinks it's absolutely wonderful. And I think that that's why that passage describing Rochester Chatham is absolutely brilliant for pinpointing this idea of Britain as being on the cusp of incredible change. Yeah.

So there's a world of warehouses and dock yards and battleships and global trade and free trade and all that stuff. And this is the central axis. This is the hub of that world, isn't it? Rochester and Chatham, these twin towns across the Medway. So Tom, give us a little bit of a tour d'horizont.

So the reason The reason that we are here is obviously because I've bullied you into doing it. You've put up a heroic three-year rear guard action. But at last we're here in Rochester, in Chatham.

You know what, ladies and gentlemen? When I look at Tom's notes, and now that I'm here on site, I could not be more excited. I'm absolutely dogged with excitement because there are so many delights to come in this episode. There's Dickens, there's naval stuff. There might be a mention of Horacio Nelson. There's people wrestling on the floor of a chapel or something. It is probably the most exciting, the most action-packed, the most blood-soaked, and in many ways, the most moving episode that we've ever done on the rest of history.

The reason that I wanted to do it is that I've been walking the Saxonshore Way, which is a national route that follows the coastline of Kent, which for those people not familiar with the geography of England, is the bit in the Southeast that sticks out into the sea. I realized coming here that Rochester High Street becomes Chatham High Street. I felt that the way in which you go from where we've got an Iron Age hill fort, we've got a Roman Bridge, we've got an Anglo-Saxon Cathedral, we've got a Norman Castle, and yet you end up with Chatham Docks, this great nerve center of British Imperial expansion. I am making the pitch that this is the most historic street in England.

It's really the world, Tom. No?

Well, I think in Britain, you could make a case for the Royal Mile in Edinburgh, which has Holyrood and Edinburgh and the Grave of Adam Smith and all kinds of things like that. But if you want a sense of the sweep and span and process of change that manifestsests itself through English history, Rochester High Street, Chatham High Street, if you think of it as a single road, is absolutely fantastic. As Defoe says, Rochester is all about the traditional England of tourist brochures. Chatham is about energy and industry and transformation. And you could say, I think, that in the 18th and 19th centuries, it's a cross between the Pentagon and Silicon Valley.

And Chatham right now, it's retained that reputation, hasn't it, Tom, as a glittering cosmopolitan on the front line of technological and social change, no? I fear not.

So the Chatham Dockyards shut in 1984. And I think it would be fair to say that if you're an enthusiast for vape shops or possibly to two parlors. Chatham High Street now is very much the place to go.

I actually love both of those things. So it's great.

It's probably not at the cutting edge of naval technology now in the way that it used to be. So I think it's fair to say that Chatham has seen happier days. And in that, again, of course, it's an exemplar of British history because obviously, Britain is not the great power that it was in the 18th and 19th centuries. And so if Chatham exemplifies the rise to global greatness of Britain, there's also a in which its current state tells you about Britain's relative decline.

But before we do some history, why don't we have a little excursion into geography? We don't do enough geography on the rest of history, and Theo, in particular, is a passionate aficionado of geography. Tom, talk to Theo, and indeed, the listeners, about geography.

Yeah, well, geography, of course, is so important to the study of history because so often, geography is historical destiny, and that is definitely the case with Rochester and Chatham. So just to set the geographical scene for people who may not be au fait with North Kent. So we are just south of the Thames Estuary, the stretch of water that extends from London outwards into the North Sea. So we've got Essex to the north, and we in Kent on the south Coast of the Thames Estuary. And we are standing beside the Medway, which is a river that rises in Kent and flows northwards out into the Thames estuary. And Rochester and Chatham both stand on the Medway and would not have come into existence without the Medway. So to talk about Rochester first, why is Rochester where it is? Basically, because it is the lowest bridging point on the on the River Medway. So essentially, if you want to get across the Medway, Rochester is the place to come. And in that, it's relationship to the Medway is equivalent to London's relationship to the Thames. And as with London, it's the Romans who build London Bridge.

So here, it's the Romans who build the first bridge over the Medway. But even before the Rome has come, there is a trackway here that leads from Dover, the Southeastern tip of Kent, up towards the River Thames. And this is the forwarding point. So very much Iron Age Highway. And this is the highway that in due course will come to be called Watling Street, one of the great roads of England.

And so where is that, Tom? Is that right here?

Yeah. So that bridge that you can see there, if you're watching this on YouTube. Essentially, Chatham High Street, Rochester High Street, that's all part of Watling Street. So essentially, when the Romans under Julius Caesar land here in '55 and then '54 BC, in '54 BC, Caesar advances towards the Thames, he would almost certainly have come this way. And again, we can be pretty confident that in AD 43, when Claudius sends three legions here under Aulus Plautius, again, they would have come here. And in fact, we know that there is a great two-day battle on the Medway, perhaps here more likely a little bit further south. Vespasian, who will go on to become the Emperor, he crosses the river with his Batavian cavalry who have this extraordinary ability to swim in full armor. It's a very exciting scene.

It's unbelievably exciting. I cannot describe. It's such a shame that the listeners, and even the people watching on can't actually be here because the air is electric with excitement, isn't it? To be here in this spot where it actually happened. Unbelievable history.

Well, can I just crank up the excitement by revealing the name that the Romans give to the town that they built here. It's Durobrevi, which means almost certainly stronghold by the bridge. I mean, couldn't be more exciting.

And both Watling Street and this bridge built by the Romans survive the Roman occupation, don't they? Basically because they're just so well-located. If you're going to Dover, if you are coming from Dover, if you're going to London, you're going to go this way. Yes.

It's essentially the great road that links London and everything that lies beyond London to Dover and therefore to the continent.

But enough of Rochester. There's been a lot of Rochester so far. Where's Chatham? Talk to me about Chatham.

Well, the view of Chatham is on the other side of the keep where we're standing now. I'm looking at it now.

It's gorgeous. It's absolutely stunning.

I think, Dominic, we should get Harry to move the cameras and go over on the other side of the keep.

So as you can see, if you are watching on Spotify or on YouTube, we have now moved to the other side of the castle. And the sense of drama, tension, and jeopardy is becoming more acute with every moment for two reasons. Number one, the wind has now reached gale force levels. And secondly, the staff of the castle are having to fight off a huge throng downstairs. Two different groups, one, a group of Restes History Club members who've just signed up at theresteshistory. Com and have heard that Tom Holland is here. They're very excited. And the other, a group of schoolchildren whom Tom has forbidden from coming to the top of the castle, ruining They're outing their day and quite possibly their love of history forever. But Tom, tell us, tell everybody watching on Spotify and YouTube why you have barbed these children from coming to the top of the castle so that you can talk about Chatham.

Well, I I'll try to do it over the sound of the sobbing of distraught 12-year-old history fans. But it's important for us to be on the summit of this 100-foot Norman Keep because we've come to the other side and now you can see the sweep of the Medway. We talked about how the Medway is key to Rochester. It's also the key to Chatham. Chatham is closer to the sea than Rochester, which means that it is much more convenient should you be sailing an enormous Tudor ship, which is what starts to happen in the 16th century because England is expanding its global interests, trade, piracy, ultimately, conquest. The Elizabethen Court starts to realize that it's ideally situated between London and the shipping lanes that lead to the world. In 1568, Elizabeth I formerly institutes Chatham as a Royal Dockyard. From that point on, it plays a fundamental role in the growth of the Royal Navy and the emergence of first English and then British engagement with the broader world, which, of course, ultimately will result in the establishment of the British Empire. Obviously, that is a process that takes centuries. The emergence of Chatham as what it becomes in the 18th and into the 19th century to the most futuristic place on the face of the planet, is a huge, huge long term government-sponsored plan of the kind, perhaps you might say, that the British state has slightly forgotten how to engage in.

But born as much of failure as success, right? Because where we are now, the Medway, is the location for one of the most disgraceful, perfidious, ultimately insignificant moments in in the world history, isn't it? Which is the Dutch raid on the Medway. They're bad people, and they really let themselves down.

So that's in June 1667, and it's part of a series of wars that England and the Dutch Republic are waging against each other. This is the second bout of war under the reign of Charles II, who's just come back after his exile in the Netherlands, and we'll be hearing more about that in due course. The Dutch and Charles II aren't getting on well at all in the 1660s. As we say, in 1667, the Dutch sail up the Medway, and they find that the defenses in place to protect the dock yards and all the ships that are at anchor there just aren't up to scratch. They burn or capture 13 English ships, and Dominic in a shocking display of thieving. They haul away HMS Royal Charles, which is the flagship of the English Navy, and disgracefully, it's still on display in the Rijksmuseum to this day.

Do you want to know what Daniel Defoe said? Yeah. Tell me what he said. I know you like Daniel Defoe. He had pungent views about this. He said, This alarm gave England such a sense of the consequence of the river Madway and of all the docks and yards- From Birmingham, Dominic. This alarm, he changed his voice because he toured the country. He toured the country. He'd picked up different accents. He said, This alarm got of England such a sense of the consequence of the river Madway and of all the docks and yards at Chatham and of the danger the Royal Navy I exposed to there, that all these doors which were open then are locked up and sufficiently barred since that time. And it is not now in the power of any nation under heaven. A nation? I don't know what happened there. Though they should be masters at sea, unless they were masters at land, too, at the same time, to give us such another affront. I don't actually know what that last bit means because I was just so distracted by the accent. What does he mean?

What he means is that the raid on the Medway was such a shock to the British state that absolutely impregnable defenses were put in place all the along the line of the Redway up to Chatham, and particularly at the mouth of the estuary, going into the Medway. Essentially, he's saying that even if naval supremacy were to pass from Britain, people still wouldn't be able to force their way in. The only conceivable way in which Chatham could be destroyed would be if there was a land invasion. Defoe is right, because Chatham stands impregnable throughout the Seven Years War, throughout the Napoleonic Wars. And we talked in our episodes on Nelson about how Napoleon's plan England, if he could only get his troops across, was to march straight on Chatham and destroy it. I mean, it would be the equivalent of knocking out, I don't know, a nuclear defense system or something like that today. And it survives the First World War, it survives the Second World War. And But throughout those conflicts and also throughout the long decades of peace in the 19th century, Chatham, I guess, is both the symbol and the fulcrum of Britain's role as a great global power.

Before that, Tom, just quickly, because the school children are fighting their way up the stairs. Britain was, of course, herself part of a great empire, and it was a node in the imperial network of the Roman Empire. Actually, we've been looking down at Watling Street and the great Bridge, haven't we? Just say a little bit more about that bridge because you love that bridge.

Yeah. So as you said, the first bridge over the Medway, probably a pontoon bridge, and then the Romans develop it with great stone piers and wooden planks across it. And that bridge endures well after the collapse of Roman power, and it's there probably up until eighth or ninth century when it gets rebuilt again. And the reason that's so important, as we said, it's the quickest way to get from Dover, which is the shortest crossing point from the continent, up to London. It's not surprising that in the wake of the Roman withdrawal, Rome makes contact again with what's become Anglo-Saxon England, not with military means, but with spiritual means, when at the end of the sixth century, St Augustine arrives with a band of monks to convert the pagan Anglo-Saxons. His original plan is to get to London and establish an Archbishopric there, but they don't because London is hostile territory So famously, they stop in Canterbury, and that's why the head of the Church of England is in Canterbury to this day. That is where the first cathedral in Anglo-saxon England is built. But the second Anglo-saxon cathedral, which is founded in 604, is down there from where we are standing.

It's founded in in Rochester by a guy called Justice, who, like Augustine, is from Rome. It's incredibly old. I mean, Duffo says it's not very interesting. But it is interesting in the sense that this takes us right the way back to the earliest days of the Roman Church in England, back to the age of Gregory the Great. I find it very moving. You love it. It's a sense of a living link. Yeah, you love that, don't you?

I do. It was given to Odo by William the Conqueror, no?

Yeah. Anglo-saxon England comes to an end with the Norman Conquest. In our episode on that, we talked about how William from Hastings goes to Dover and captures it and then goes to London. He comes via Rochester, so he sees that it's an absolutely crucial place to seize. His half brother, Odo, who is a bishop, but very fond of fighting. So famously, as a bishop, you're not allowed to shed blood, so he kills people with a club or a mace. And William gives Rochester as a bishop, Rick, to Odo. But Odo, he's a very bad man. He is very treacherous, and he gets chucked out. And so William gives it to this remarkable man who is called, he's not Gandalf, it's Gandalf, but quite similar. And he has a slightly, it's Gandalf-esque role in William's career because he's a man who achieves extraordinary things. He's very, Very smart, very proficient at creating things. So he's a great architect. He's a great engineer. It's Gandalf who builds the white tower in London, which becomes the basis for the Tower of London. In '83, he starts work here in Rochester on renewing the Anglo-Saxon Cathedral that had basically fallen into pieces.

It was very decrepid. Not much of what he actually built, it survives, except for a place called Gandalf's Tower, which annoyingly we can't actually see from here. Anyway, people are interested in Gandalf. You can still see his tower. This is great podcasting. It really is. It gets remodeled throughout the Middle Ages. It has a particularly bad time in the 13th century when King John, England's worst king, loots it. And then Simon de Montfort, the self-style father of the English Parliament, he loots it as well. And I think there's always a sense that it's a little bit shabby. That's how Peeps described it in the 16th century. We heard Defoe saying it was ancient but not extraordinary. And again, I think that's fair.

But pick out some highlights. So there's a nice crypt.

There's a crypt. So that was built by Gandalf. So Gandalf fans can see that as well as his tower.

You're excited about the great West All, aren't you? Very excited. It's got Christ, and it's got justice, and someone else.

King Ethelbert, who welcomed Augustine and his missionaries to Ken.

There's another lovely ceiling with some green men. You love a green man. But most of all, the thing you were telling me, which I found actually quite moving. You said one of the most... Something that had brought you closer to the dimension of the supernatural than ever before was you went in 2019, you played mini golf in the center of the cathedral.

In In 2019, following in the footsteps of St. Justice and Bishop Gandalf, the Cathedral Authority set up a mini golf course in the nave of the Cathedral.

Can I tell people what you... Tom texted me after he played golf in the Cathedral, and he said, Dominic, while playing adventure golf, I really felt that I reflected on the bridges that need to be built in our own lives and in the world today.

Dominic, you know what's amazing about that reflection that I had is that a few days later, the diocese of Rochester put out a message saying that we hope that while playing adventure golf, visitors will reflect on the bridges that need to be built in their own lives and in our world today. So That's incredible. Yes, it's incredible.

So once again, yet again, the diocese of Rochester has been hacking our text. It's unbelievable. So on that bombshell, Tom, let's just move on very quickly to talk about Rochester Castle before we descend and allow the school children up here. Tell me about the history of Rochester Castle. So this is what? Norman originally?

Yeah. So Defoe in that bit you read, he's very rude about the cathedral, perhaps not unfairly, but he said that the castle was just a ruin, which we're standing up here and you can see it's clearly not a ruin. We've got a sign there saying It's unsafe for humans, 100 foot drop beneath. Generally, this is very, very impressive structure. And it's not surprising because where you have a very important river crossing, you want to have a very strong defensive system so that can keep control of it. And so it's not surprising that, as you say, yes, it is William who builds the first castle here because that's what the Normands are doing. And again, he's given the cathedral to Odo. He also tells Odo to build a castle, which Odo does. It's made of wood. But when Odo gets chucked out for behaving badly and treacherously towards his half brother, he hands the responsibility for the castle over to Bishop Gandalf. And we've said how Gandalf is a tremendous architect, a tremendous engineer. He gets to work building a castle out of stone masonry, probably one of the first stone castles to be built by the Normands after the conquest.

It's because of that, I was just reading up in the Bodliant before we came up here, that Gandalf, apparently, is recognized by the core of Royal engineering as the man who established them. So they trace a line of continuity all the way back through the Middle Ages, back to Gandalf. And I guess in part is due to the reputation of the Tower of London, but also due to this, because although the keep where we're standing now was built in the 12th century, the walls are Gandalf's. And this keep is amazing. When you come in to Rochester on the train, you can see it looming up. I think it's the tallest keep in England, one of the tallest keeps in the whole of Europe. And again, it was built by not a bishop, but by an archbishop. So, Rochester got given to the Archbishop, Rick of Canterbury in the 12th century.

We've had it in the show before. It's been in the rest of history.

It has. So it featured in our episode on the Peasants' Revolt, misnamed, but this great rebellion of people in Essex, but also in Kent. And when the rebels want to march on London, they have to seize the castle first because it's the great key to the that leads to London. They managed to storm the castle, and they capture the Castellane, the guy in charge of it, and they take him hostage. When they get to London and they want to negotiate with Richard II and his government, the Castellane of Rochester Cathedral is the guy that they use to communicate between the rebels and the Royal authorities.

Basically, through Rochester Castle's history, loads of big names have been here, haven't they? So King John of France, when he was captured by the Black Prince, he was brought through Rochester, made a donation to the cathedral? Yes. That's nice.

Henry IV, after returning in triumph from Agencourt, he has to get to Calais, crosses to Calais, rides the great road up to London, and passes through Rochester. He is not the last king to make a memorable procession through Rochester because there is another one who has left a real mark on the city. We can't see that mark that he left from up here. I think we wind our way down the stairs past the sobbing schoolchildren and allow them to come up here to the top, and we will go down and go to this site, which commemorates the arrival in Rochester in 1660 of Charles II.

Tom, Restoration House, Rochester. That's where we are right now. An absolutely gorgeous example of 17th century architecture architecture. We've just been shown around by the owner, Jonathan Wilmott. Amazing artworks, furniture, and whatnot that you can see if you're watching on Spotify or on YouTube. But why are we here?

Well, as you say, an amazing 17th-century house, origins going back to late 15th century, 16th century, all patched together. A Pevsner rather rudely described it as being all highly peculiar and undisciplined. But I think it's unbelievably atmospheric, very different vibe to being on on top of a Norman castle. But we are here because the most famous person who stayed here was Charles II, who had been in exile throughout the restoration. Cromwell dies, people don't know what to do, so they say, Well, let's try and bring Charles II back. He lands in Dover. He's been staying in the Dutch Republic. Now he's back in English soil, and he's processing towards London, and he spends the night of 28th of May, 1660, here. The next morning, he gets up. It's his birthday, and he goes off in to London. Hence the name, Restoration House.

But there's a brilliant literary connection, isn't there? And a connection with one of Rochester's, one of this area's favorite sons. Because am I not right in saying that Charles Dickens used this house where we're sitting right now as the inspiration for Satis House, which is, of course, Miss Havisham's house in his novel, Great Expectations?

I think for the purposes of this podcast, we can say 100 % this was the inspiration. It has said that. No, No, no. Dicken's was seen leaning on a... Looking in at it while writing Great Expectations. I think we can say 100 %. Actually, for those who are looking on YouTube or Spotify, if you imagine this setting covered in cobweb and a moldering wedding cake in the background. I think you can absolutely imagine Miss Havisham jilted at the altar in her decade wedding dress, gliding around like a goual. Poor Pip, the little blacksmith's boy, feeling very coarse and sorry for himself.

Well, Great Expectations is very close to my heart, Tom, because I won the School Public Speaking and Reading Competition four years in a row with the opening of Great Expectations. Four years in a row? Four years in a row with the same reading. God. Joyless.

Were you allowed to do that?

Not really. It was considered against the spirit of not the letter of the law.

That really does seem like cheating.

By about the third or fourth time, the head of English said, You're really ruining this for everybody else with this reading that is unbeatable because it's such a brilliant reading.

But you must be excited, though, to be here.

Oh, yeah. But you come home. That's the way I roll, Tom. That's the way I operate. If I can win and suck all the pleasure out of it for other people, so much the better. Let's talk about Dickens.

The reason that he's hanging out here, gazing at the windows, is because he actually had a house just outside, Rochester, the other side of the Medway, which was called Gads Hill Place. He lived there for the last 14 years of his life. He absolutely loved Rochester. Basically, everywhere you go in Rochester, you see Dickens' illusions. So restaurants, cafés, whatever.

We've just been to the café. Jackers.

Jackers' Café. Jackers' Café, yeah. There are little signs saying, Dickens, this house was where so-and-so lived or whatever. And Gad Hill, the house outside Rochester where he lived, he got given a Swiss chalet by one of his friends, and it arrived like an IKEA pack in various boxes. Dickens wanted to assemble it at viewpoint where he could look out at the sea. So the bottom of his garden, there was quite a busy road. So he dug a tunnel under the road, and then he assembled the Swiss chalet on the far side of the road so that in the second floor where he had his study, he could look out at the sea and be inspired by it. And that chalet, apparently, you can still see it just off Rochester High Street. So if you like Dickens, there's no end of Dickensian fun facts here. And the other famous thing associated with Dickens here is that it's the setting for his last novel, which he never completed, The mystery of Edwin Drew, and the opium addict and cathedral organist, John Jasper, who almost certainly is the murderer of Edwin Drew, or is Edwin Drew dead? Who knows?

He lived on one of the gates that's just below the castle where we've been. The Rochester in Edwin Drew is called Kloisterham. The Dickens' description of it is very similar to Defoe. He says, A city of another and a bygone time is close to him, all things in it are of the past. There's that sense of Rochester as a place where the history of England is invested.

The layers of history.

But as Dickens also knew, The same cannot be said of Chatham. He knew Chatham very well because he had spent the formative years of his childhood there.

That's because his father, John Dickens, had worked as a clerk there, hadn't he, in the naval pay office? Yeah. Dickens lived there from what, the age of five to the age of 11?

Yes, and thought it was wonderful. Had incredible childhood memories of it, thought it was amazing. Then years later, in 1860, when he was 48, he came back. It was his first visit to Chatham since he'd been a boy. And he wrote up about it expressing essentially his disappointment that it wasn't quite as amazing as he remembered it. And he was so disappointed, and listeners to this podcast will be thrilled to know this, that he called Chatham Dullesbra. Dullesbra. Maybe we could use that as a title. For this episode. But then after a day touring Chatham, a. K. A. Dullesbrough, he left in a slightly more benignant mood. So he wrote, When I went alone to the railway to catch my train, I was in a more charitable mood with Dullesbrough. Than I had been all day. And yet in my heart, I had loved it all day, too. Who was I that I should quarrel with the town for being changed to me when I myself had come back so changed to it? All my early readings and early imaginations dated from this place, and I took them away so full of innocent construction and guileless belief, and I brought them back so worn and torn, so much the wiser and so much the worse.

Tom, that's lovely. That's a lovely reading. Actually, that inspires me to go to Chatham. I think we should head off from Restoration House. I have to say what an amazing house this is and how royally we've been looked after. I actually, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say, I don't think I've ever been to a location with the rest of history that I have enjoyed more and that will live in my memory for longer than Restoration House.

Which I'm sat here looking at you. You're in a magnificent period armchair. Behind you is a ticking grandfather clock. I think you should have this vibe For every recording of the rest of its history.

I think I do already.

No? I don't think you do quite.

Disappointing.

But anyway, talking of positive vibes, let's head off to Chatham High Street.

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Now, Tom, as you know, in the Middle Ages, it could take you years if you were a monk to create a manuscript. You'd have to copy it out word by word. And then after all that, the margins would be ready and you'd put all decorative elements and all kinds of gilts and stuff in the margins, and it would look fantastic.

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That is foliosociety. Com. Welcome back to The Rest is History. And very excitingly, we have now moved from Rochester to Chatham. Tom, let's walk up this lovely little slope here and discuss why you brought us here.

Well, Dominic, if you look here, it reads Gandalf Road. So we are on Gandalf Road. Gandalf, very much friend of the show, the founder of the Royal Engineers, William I's go-to Bishop, the guy who designed Rochester Cathedral and the Castle. He got his hands on Chatham as well, because although Chatham is very much a 18th century, 19th place. That's its heyday. There was a village here in the Middle Ages, and Gundal founded a hospital for the poor and lepros, and they would be brought along the river, which is just down there. Then there It would be special passageways that would thread up from the river to bring them to the hospital because nobody wanted to come in touch with the leper, and only the lepros were allowed to go up these. The hospital is long gone, but there is one remainder of it, and it is this chapel that we're looking at here. The front of the chapel, clearly very Victorian. This is by Sir Gilbert Scott, who designed the Albert Memorial and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and these great monuments of neo-gothic Victoriana. But if we go round the back, we will find a bit of the original 12th century chapel.

I like to think that even though we are here in the heart of Chatham, the swirl of 21st century Britain. Maybe inside this chapel, there is a little haven, a little reminder of the age of faith. We will see what we find inside. You can see this entrance. The Eastern section, there are still bits of the original 12th century chapel. If we go in through here, we can see I imagine that there'll be a a mood of cloistered peace, maybe amid the hurly burly of Chatham, a reminder of the spirituality of the Middle Ages. I think it'll be very moving for people. Let's go and see what's going This is maybe not quite what I was expecting. We should maybe describe for people what we're seeing.

This, to me, very much speaks of medieval spirituality. There are about four people writhing and grappling on the ground. If you're not watching on Spotify or YouTube, that's what I'm looking at. Basically, somebody's thighs and they're wrapped around another person's neck.

And behind them are two signs reading Granite Gym. And this ancient sanctuary, this repository of medieval spirituality, seems to have become a gym. So I like to think that this probably isn't what Bishop Gandalf wanted, but whatever. It's progress.

I'm sure he did a bit of wrestling with Christ here.

But Dominic, just to say, that is the... So, Harry, behind you, that This is what remains of the 12th century Chapel.

Basically, for those people not watching, Tom is pointing at a bit of wall, the lovely window. I don't know what else to say, really, Tom. Do you want to describe it to the listeners?

What I will say is that there aren't people wrestling under that. No, but there is- Maybe showing a bit of respect. There is a sofa, isn't there?

There's a broken till, so that's good.

There is. Anyway, that's progress.

So we have crossed the street and we've come a little bit further forward in time. So we're now standing for those people who are not watching on YouTube or Spotify, we are standing in front of some lovely little brick arms houses. Tom, these were built in 1592, and they're associated with a very famous name in Tudor seafaring history.

Yes. This is the hospital of Sir John Hawkins in Chatham. It is the single oldest Royal Navy charity, the oldest Royal Navy hospital, and it was founded by Sir John Hawkins, who was a cousin of Sir Francis Drake. He was first the Treasurer of Elizabeth's Navy, then its controller. He played a key role in establishing not just Chatham, but the English Navy as a force to be reckoned with. In his will, he set aside some property to endow a hospital, which makes him sound one of history's good guys. But there is a slight complication, which is hinted at on the website for the hospital of Sir John Hawkins, where it confesses that a lot of the money that Sir John Hawkins made, which enabled him to fund this hospital, was made in the slave trade. This disavowal is made. Although not out of step with the societal norms of his time, the governors fully acknowledge the abhorrent and brutal nature of this vile activity and regret Sir John's involvement profoundly. Then there's a big, however, he was an outstanding seaman navigator, naval administrator, and benefactor of naval veterans. Both of those things are clearly true.

This is absolutely the place that focuses some of the ambivalences and complexities of Britain's- Everybody loves focusing on ambivalence.

He's a great Spanish armada man, isn't he?

All of that. He's roughs, roughs, beards, playing bowls, all of that. Yes. He is one of the great... The Victorians loved him. They loved the idea that the sea dogs under Elizabeth I had been the prototype for Britain's Navy.

This place had a tremendous history of sea doggery or sea dogging, didn't it?

Because- There's a lot of sea dogging going on here.

They had two veterans of the Battle of Copenhagen who were here, and a veteran of Trafalgar lived here, right?

Yes. A guy called Henry Dawkins was here. Now, you said that this was built in the Tudor period, these are not Tudor buildings. Actually, it got rebuilt in 1789. And then it got refurbished again in the 1980s when it got opened by the Queen Mother. I love it. You've got John Hawkins, you've got redevelopment in the period of the French Revolution, and you've got the Queen Mother. I think that, Dominic, you'd agree that this is one of the many jewels of Chatham High Street.

That's the rich tapestry of British history right there.

But the exciting news is there are more jewels, and I think we should go and look.

So let's go. That was so weak. So a really weak clap there from Theo to start this this new segment. Now, Tom, one of the One of the things that we associate with Dockland areas, of course, is pubs. And we are looking at two splendid historic pubs. So one of them is the North Forland. And I just want to give people an impression of the forensic research that you've brought to this episode. So your notes say, Nelson reputedly drank here. So that's great. So that definitely happened. So I read that it was rebuilt in 1912 and shot in 2012. An amazing-Yeah.

I bet you're glad you've seen that now. Imagine if you've been stuck in the Coltswells all this time and You never got to see that.

A really amazing history.

But there's more, isn't there? Yeah, there's more. You have not yet drunk your fill of the cup of historical delights that Chatham High Street has to offer. So do you want to continue or are you laughing too much?

No, I'm laughing too much, but I will continue. Opposite us is something called the Ship In. I read in Tom's notes, Tom has written the words. One of the oldest gay pubs in the country.

I think that's definitely true.

But then his citation comes from Kenton. I'm laughing so much I can't speak.

Kenton Line is a very reputable source. Very scholarly, peer reviewed. So do you want to read that what it says?

Kent Online. Apparently. I feel like the word apparently is doing a lot of lifting there. It gets better, doesn't it? Apparently, the bartender's mate recently compiled a history of Rochester High Street and proudly informed me, this is the writer from Kent Online, that the pub is more than 500 years old and Medway's oldest gay bar. That's definitely true. Not only this, but he confidently declared that the Purple Dance Bar on the left, complete with its brick-look wallpaper, was the site of the first arrest and conviction for buggery way back in the days of Henry VIII. So apparently, that is from- According to the barman's mate. The barman's mate. But actually, there's some serious history behind us, much as I'm laughing about your ludicrous research. There's some serious history behind us that I'm hoping you've put an equal amount of effort into.

Well, actually, do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to read from the foundation stone on this building, which reads, This foundation stone was laid by Simon Magnus for a memorial synagogue in affectionate remembrance of his much lamented and only son, Lazarus Simon Magnus Esquire. A synagogue on Chatham High Street is a reminder of the fact that as well as pubs, what you expect to find in and docklands and dock yards and all that thing, is lots of people from overseas. When the Jews were allowed back into England in the mid 17th century by Oliver Cromwell.

My friend of the show, Oliver Cromwell.

Although not officially, but effectively. One of the earliest communities outside London, where Jews settled, was in Chatham because, of course, it was growing. It was providing links to all the other Jewish communities on the continent. The first synagogue on this site was built in 1750. The people who were able to fund it could do it because they were helping people in the Royal Navy who had captured prizes to then sell them, to get to convert it into money, and they would take a cut. That cut then enabled them to fund the first synagogue. But this particular synagogue opened in 1869. As the foundation said, it was built by the father of this guy, Simon Magnus, who had been a captain in the fourth Kent Artillery Volunteers. He They've also been a business partner of Isambard Kingdom, Brunell, the great engineer. So, Gundalf, Brunel, all the great engineers are featuring in this story. We mentioned earlier about the Leper Hospital and about how there are these paths that go from the river up to where the hospital was. There was one of them that went along the west side of the synagogue. So it was a freehold of a strip of ground, which remains...

They couldn't buy it, and to this day, they have to pay a rent to use it of 5 P per annum. So again, a fascinating link, taking us back to the medieval origins of Chatter.

Yet more of the extraordinary rich and vibrant history of this part of the world.

Yes, absolutely. And this synagogue is still going strong. And during both the wars, but particularly in the Second World War, it provided a home for Jewish servicemen who We passed through Chatham and were working here. We've talked about Nelson, we've talked about the Second World War, and the obvious place in Chatham where Nelson and the Second World War could join is the naval dock yards, the Royal Dock yards, the reason that all these incredible treasures, Dominic, are lining Chatham High Street. I think that we should go there now.

Let's do that. Right. Now, if you're watching this, you can see that we've moved location to somewhere very, very spectacular indeed. Tom, we have moved to Chatham's Royal Dockyard, and we're in the bowels of the Dockyard, and a place we will reveal in a second. The Dockyard is built in first in 1567. And last for what?

414 years. Wow. Closes in 1984.

So you love this place. Now, the irony is that when we first did the rest of this history, you hated the Royal Navy. You hated dock yards. I hated rope. And Above all, you hated rope. So it's fitting that to apologize and to abase yourself, you have come to the Ropery of the Royal Dockyard. But just talk to me about the Royal Dockyard before we get on to the Ropery.

I do love the Dockyard here in Chatham. The reason for that, it's a phrase that N. A. M. Roger, the great historian of the Royal Navy, expressed that the dockyards, Portsmouth, Chatham, places like that, are 19th-century islands in an 18th-century sea. You did a TV show here on H. G. Wells. I guess you came here because that sense of it has a science fiction quality. It's this idea of technology being ahead of the historical context because these are amazing places. These are where the most lethal killing machines on the face of the planet are developed, namely the ships of the Royal Navy, of which over the course of the 414 years, over 500 ships are built here, including the most famous of all HMS victory. Yeah.

Tom, our old friend Daniel Defoe had strong views about this place, didn't he? I know you love a Daniel Defoe reading because you admire his accent so much. He said, The building yards, the docks, timber yard, the deal yard, the mast yard, the gun yard, the rope walks, and all the other yards and places set apart for the works belonging to the Navy are like a well-ordered city. And though you see the whole place as it were in the utmost hurry, yet you see no confusion. Every man knows his own business. Place. Now, the thing is, he was talking about the rope walks, and we are actually in the Roperry, which you talked about N. A. M. Roger in this idea of this being the 19th century in the 18th century. At its peak, this place, the Ropeery, was probably the most futuristic, the most technologically and industrially advanced place on the planet. Now, the sublime irony of this is that when we started the podcast, you said there was nothing you hated more than naval rope. And yet you have chosen this place to do this, basically this entire episode, in fact, probably the whole of the podcast, has been building to this moment.

What is it about? Tell me about the Ropery.

I think it's one of the most amazing historic structures in Britain. It's a great monument to the age of Nelson, to the rise of the Royal Navy, to global supremacy. As you say, it is a glimpse of the future. Built in the 1780s 1790s. It is 1,140 feet long. When it's built, it was the longest brick building in Britain. It is absolutely stupifying. Some of the machinery here where they still make rope to this day. You can buy it around the corner. It dates back to 1806. If you want a flavor of what it was that powered Chatham, powered this stretch the Medway, powered the Royal Navy, this is the place to come.

In a way, Tom, this is where the Napoleonic Wars were won. This is where the Pax Britannica of the 19th century was established. This is what's powering all that, the great dynamo, the Ropery, Chatham Dockyard, the Royal Navy, the infrastructure, the sinews of Britain's greatness. Of course, that continues all the way through to the middle of the 20th century. I think we should fast forward to the Second World War, and we should go out of here and we should go to an equally exciting historical site, which is a splendid ship.

Let's do that. We will be ending this podcast by treading the metal boards of a British battleship.

Tom, we've been on an epic journey, haven't we, through Rochester and Chatham. And now we've reached an Earth-shattering conclusion because we have come deep into the dockyard here at Chatham, and we are on a second World War battleship. So Tell me a little bit about this ship and why you've chosen this. And tell me a little bit about its story. Okay.

Well, you know that I love a second World War battleship. And to be more precise, I love a C-Class destroyer, which is what this HMS Cavalier, a name that I like to think Charles II would very much be approved of.

Yeah, Prince Rupert, Charles I, they'd all love that.

They would all have loved it. That's what this is. A C-Class destroyer. What's your favorite destroyer? What class? Probably B. Probably a B class. But a C class is quite good.

I like all destroyers, but I'd probably rank top three C, B, probably A, in that order.

Also, I think also very nice is the color. For those who can't see, lovely turquoise, and it blends in with the turquoise of the River Medway, which is behind us.

Gosh, that's what I thought.

Anyway, so- That's a painterily eye. It absolutely is. This ship, it was launched in the Second World War. It fought in Norway. It joined a convoy, going to the Soviet Union and back.

You say it, surely. She.

Then she sailed out to join in the final stages of the war in the Pacific. Absolutely a reminder of Chatham's role in the Second World War. But I think that this ship is also a memorial to the decline of Chatham because this ship got decommissioned in the 1970s, and Chatham gets decommissioned in 1984. And really, with the closing of the docks, so much that had made Chatham-Chatham for 400 odd years ends. So in a sense, where we are now is a A reminder both of Britain's glory Days in the Second World War, but also of the geopolitical and economic decline that followed. And in that sense, I think this is a perfect place to conclude the journey, the odyssey that you were talking about. So we've gone from Arnage Hill Fort, Roman Bridge, and now we are in the 1980s.

In a very real sense, Tom, we've covered all English history, the story of, I was about to say one town, but really two towns, Rochester and Chatham.

Yeah, but joined by a single high street.

We're joined by a single high street. And let's not end on a downbeat note. No. Because I feel what we've gained from this is a sense of the extraordinarily rich history of Chatham, but also I've learned-What have you learned, Dominic? I've learned that Chatham is not just a town, Tom. It's a community, and I think that's lovely. What about you?

Yeah, I can't argue with that. We've been welcomed with such hospitality, haven't we, on the streets.

I think we've learned a lot from the people of Chatham. Probably more than the people listening to this podcast have learned from us.

I hate that they've learned something, which is go to Rochester High Street, walk down it, get to Chatham High Street, then come to the docks, and you couldn't be happier. All of English history is there.

On that shocking bombshell, we should probably say goodbye to Chatham, goodbye to Rochester, and goodbye to the listeners. Goodbye.

Goodbye.