Transcript of 535. Emperors of Rome: Tiberius, Slaughter and Scandal (Part 2)

Thank you for listening to The Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, add free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much loved chat community, go to therestishistory. Com and join the club. That is therestishistory. Com. A few days after his arrival on Capri, Tiberian Chris was enjoying his seclusion when a fisherman unexpectedly came up to him and presented him with an enormous mullet, whereupon, alarmed that someone had been able to negotiate the most inaccessible reach of the island by climbing a pathless cliff, he ordered that the man's face should be scrubbed with the fish. I only thank my lucky stars, cried out the fisherman as he was enduring this punishment, that I didn't bring Caesar the huge lobster that I also caught, whereupon Tiberius gave orders that the lobster should be used to grate the man's face to shreds. So what a shameful moment in Roman history this is. It's a notorious incident in the life of the Emperor Tiberius, who, of course, ruled from AD 14 to AD 37. And it's recorded in Suttoneus's great biography of the Caesars, now translated by our very own Tom Holland. Tom, this is a very famous story.

It's the story that captures the capriciousness and the cruelty of the aged Tiberius as he sits there on his pleasure island in the Bay of Naples. What's going on here? Unpack this story for us.

Capri, as you say, is in the Bay of Naples, and it had been appropriated by Augustus to serve him as a a retreat. Actually, he kept his collection of fossils there. He had a brilliant collection of sea monsters, which were fossils that had been brought to him. Shortly before his death in AD14, Augustus had gone there to get a bit of rest, and then he'd gone back to the mainland and traveled down the road from Naples, and that was where he died. Tiberius had inherited Capri, along with all of Augustus's other properties, all his titles and his ranks, and of course, his status as ruler of the Roman Empire because Tiberius had been adopted by Augustus. So Tiberius gets the whole lot.

So just to remind everybody, Tiberius is the second Roman Emperor. Augustus has been the first, and now Tiberius has succeeded He spends time in Rome, and then he arrives in Capri, and he settles there in the year 27, doesn't he? When he's quite old.

Yeah, so he's about 70. And by Roman standards, that's very old. And Tiberius essentially essentially is doing what great statesmen who are reaching the end of their lives, it's perfectly legitimate. You retire to your villa, your country villa. You escape the the clamor and smoke of Rome, and you enjoy what the Roman elite heates would call Otium Cum Dignitate, which is basically a leisure with dignity, a dignified retirement.

Sounds nice. Sounds lovely.

It does. But what Suetonius is doing in his biography is revealing the sordid truth that lies behind these seemingly impeccable motivations. He lists them, and he says that the first reason that Tiberius retires to Capri is out of terror. So Etonius writes, Siberius lived in the shadow not just of the loathing and hatred that he inspired, but of his own fears and of the bitter insults to which he was subject. That's obviously why he is so unsettled by finding that a fisherman can climb up this sheer cliff because he's expecting that he's absolutely secure there. That's why his reaction, Suetonius implies, is so brutal. But there is another reason as well, and we touched on this in the previous episode we did, which is that alongside the Roman assumption that a nobleman has his right to a dignified leisure, is the lurking suspicion that pretty much everyone in Rome is prey to, that someone who craves privacy for its own sake, who indulges It is in it too much.

Bad sign.

Tiberius, he never goes back to Rome following his arrival in Capri. He makes two feints to go back to the city, but he never actually enters it. The assumption in Rome, therefore, is that there are no good reasons for what he's doing. He is indulging the most unspeakable depravity. Again, Suetonius on this, he became notorious for the worst, the most shocking deviancies, such as a hardly to be talked or heard about, and indeed, strain the bounds of credibility. Then, Suetonius, having said that these deviancies are too shocking to be talked about, he then talks about them in great and salacious detail. As he does so, he insists that despite having said that these stories strain the bounds of credibility, in fact, they are true. He is reporting on gossip that has been obsessing Rome, supposedly. Suetonius tells us that the island of Capri has been renamed in Rome Capro, which is the Latin for a male goat. So Tiberius is this hideous, goatish figure. And thanks to Suetonius's reports, Tiberius's reputation has never really recovered. To this day, he has the image, I think, in the public imagination, of a ghoulish, blood-stained Jeffrey Epstein, a pervert, but an embittered and paranoid and murderous pervert.

It's because of this, Suetonius reports, that when Tiberius dies, the news is greeted with public exaltation. Again, Suetonius writes, So delighted were the people at the news of his death that when they first heard it, some ran about all over the place yelling to the Tiber with Tiberius, in other words, Dump his body in the river that flows through Rome. Some prayed to Mother Earth and to the souls of the departed, that the dead man be given no resting place except among the damned, and others yet threatened his corpse with the hook and the Gammonian steps and the flight of steps that lead from the Forum up to the capital, and they pass the great prison, and the bodies of those who've been executed are exposed on the Gammonian steps and been dragged with a hook and dumped in the Tiber. In the event, this is not the fate that is visited on Tiberius's body. Instead, it is escorted from the Bay of Naples, much as Augustus's had been when he died, back to Rome with great honor. It's cremated in a great state funeral. But the taint of this reputation has endured for two millennia.

I would say that if you were, say, casting a vampire film about the living dead in ancient Rome, Tiberius would be the Emperor best qualified to star in that.

There are two things I would say that people who know anything about Tiberius know about Tiberius. One is he's up to terrible, terrible sexual misconduct on this island, which we'll get into. And then the other is that while that is happening, there's a reign of terror in Rome by the head of the Praetarian Guard, this guy called Sejanus, who basically has deluded Tiberius and has secretly taken all his power and is killing everybody in Rome. So Tiberius He's a simultaneously a depraved old goat, but also a stupid old fool who's got no idea what's going on and in whose name all these terrible things are happening. And I guess the question is, because we know that Tiberius was a serious person.

Very serious.

That he was a very- In every sense. He was genuinely very serious. Yeah, wasn't he? Yeah. Quite humorous.

Not humorous.

But he has a dual reputation, doesn't he?

Yes, he does.

We know that he's regarded as a very proficient the Dury commander, that he's a serious politician. When he succeeds Augustus's Emperor, nobody thinks it bizarre or outlandish that such a man is in command of the Roman world. So the question is, is all this stuff about attacking people with fish and doing terrible things to people in swimming pools? Is all this just spin and mad propaganda? Is it fake news? Or does it get to some truth about Tiberius's character or about the nature of imperial power and power corrupt? I guess that's the question at the heart of this episode, isn't it?

It is, and it's a brilliant question. I think that to answer it, it's probably best to look at Suetonius's biography of Tiberius in the whole, because even though his portrayal of the Emperor in his grim old age is by far the most memorable, there is a lot more his biography than that. In fact, and I think this is crucial to understanding Tiberius's character and where he is coming from, Suetonius understands that Tiberius's identity is rooted very, very deep in the past with the origins of his family, the dynasty to which he belongs and is born into. He begins his life of Tiberius centuries before Tiberius's birth. In fact, in the age of Romulus, who is the founder of Rome itself. The reason he that is that even though by adoption, Tiberius is the son of Augustus, who in turn is the adoptive son of Julius Caesar, so the Julian family, who ultimately claimed their descent from the goddess Venus, Tiberius, by birth, belongs to a family who, actually, they are no less patrician than the Julians. They're a lot more celebrated, a lot more distinguished than the Julians historically have been. This is a family called the Claudians.

So Suetonius gives us a rotted history of them. He says that the Claudians had migrated to Rome shortly after the city's founding, so in the time of Romulus, and that they established themselves there, and they become probably the most famous of all the nobiles, the Romans call them That's the word from which we get both noblemen and nobility. They dominate the entire history of Rome once the monarchy has been expelled and Rome becomes a Republic. Suetonius writes, The hold of the Claudians on the people's affections was formidable and self-perpetuating. They are greatly admired for their achievements. So Suetonius lists some of them. It's a Claudian who steals the Romans to fight against Pyrus, the Greek king, who's come and has defeated them in three battles and who in the end gives up because his victories have been too Pyrrhic. Also, Claudians play a leading role in the defeat of the Carthaginians. But there is also a dark strain to the record of Claudian achievement. Some of them are viewed with great hatred. Again, fighting against the Carthaginians, there's a notorious story of one Claudian who is leading a battle fleet against the Carthaginians. He gets the soothsayer to consult the Holy Chickens that are on board his flagship.

The soothsayer, no, I'm afraid that the chickens are saying, Don't attack. He just has the chickens chucked into the sea and promptly loses his entire fleet. The women of the Claudians also are simultaneously admired and condemned. There's one of them whose chastity is so prodigious that she's able single-handedly, it's said, to pull a ship right the way up the Tiber. There's another one, the sister of the Claudian, who had chucked the chickens in the sea, who is driving through Rome in her carriage. There are crowds everywhere. She's furious. She's stuck in a traffic jam. She says, If only my brother were around to kill off a few more of these awful crowds in some terrible defeat. She gets accused of treason for this, the only woman in Roman history to be accused of treason up until that point. They're very charismatic, but there are lots of people who hate them. I think that maybe the best way to imagine their status in the Roman Republic is to imagine that in the American Republic, suppose the Kennedy's had been on the scene since the days of the founding fathers, that there have been successions of Kennedy's who've been presidents.

People hate them, people love them. It's that charisma that the Claudians have.

What's even worse for Tiberius, or better, depending on your viewpoint, is that both his mother and his father are descended from branches of the Claudian family, aren't they? So the Kennedy's been going for 200 years, and both of your parents are from different branches of that family. So he is born two years after the Ides of March. Everything has kicked off civil war. Actually, his father, for all his prestige and all the grandeour of his name, has backed the wrong side, hasn't he, in the civil war after Julius Caesar's assassination Yeah.

So he has to leave Italy in fear of his life. He does so with his wife, Livia, and his baby son, Tiberius. They go first to Sicily, where Tiberius, his father, is very arrogant, as all the Claudians are supposedly arrogant. He has a bust up there with the guy in charge of Sicily, and then he goes to Greece, and they're in Sparta, and there's a terrible fire, and they have to escape, and Livia's hair gets singed. So all kinds of close shaves, and it's looking very bad for Eventually, he goes to Anthony, who is ruler of the Eastern half of the Empire, and makes up with him, and there's an amnesty claimed, and Tiberius's father, Livia, and the baby Tiberius, are then able to go back to Rome, where an incredible scandal breaks out. Because while Anthony is in the East, Augustus, as he will come to be known, is the ruler of Rome. Tiberius's parents are now in the shadow of Augustus, and souetonius reports the consequence. It was with Anthony that Tiberius's father returned to Rome, and here, pressed by Augustus to surrender him, his wife, Livia, despite the fact that Livia was pregnant at the time and had already borne him a son, he did so.

He died not long afterwards and was survived by two sons, Tiberius and his younger brother, Drusus. Very shocking.

A quick question. Are we to believe that Augustus has genuinely fallen in love with this bloke's wife. It's a genuine love match. That's the only explanation, isn't it, really?

Because crucially, Livia does not give Augustus any children, and particularly any sons. So this opens up the massive question of who is going to succeed him. It's obviously very useful for Tiberius and his younger brother Drusus to be the stepsons of the most powerful man in the world, the stepsons of Augustus. But equally, it does redound greatly to Augustus's prestige to have a Claudian wife and two Claudian stepsons, because although Augustus is the grandson of Julius Caesar, his own father had not been a prestigious figure. He'd basically been a out-of-town guy. He's representative of the Italian nobility, not of the high patrician Roman nobility. So it's good for him. It upgrades his status. What is also very useful for Augustus is that Tiberius, as he grows up in Augustus's family, proves to be a man of remarkable accomplishment. Suetonius gives us all the details of this. Suetonius reports that Tiberius is exceedingly clever, exceedingly well-read, very, very interested in all kinds of intellectual pursuits, and particularly in mythology, in the study of the gods, and in the literature of Greece and Rome. He's also a very effective administrator. Even as a very young man, he's charged by Augustus, again to quote Suetonius here, making up a shortfall in the supply of grain to Rome.

I mean, that's a crucial thing. If Rome is not kept supplied, then Augustus's regime will topple. It's a real marker of trust. Then Augustus commissions the young Tiberius to launch a thorough investigation into the slave barracks across Italy, the owners of which had a terrible reputation for seizing and imprisoning not just travelers, but men whose fear of military service had driven them to hide out there. Again, that's really important because Augustus does not want his regime to be associated with conditions of internal instability.

Yeah, of course.

He wants order, really important for his popularity. This is a real demonstration of his trust in Tiberius. Then on top of that, Tiberius proves to be a brilliant military leader, far the best of his generation. To the extent that, later in his life, whenever there is a major crisis on the frontiers, it is Tiberius, to whom Augustus turns. It's not going too far to say that Tiberius is twice the savior of his country. The first of these great feats of repairing Rome and ensuring that her frontiers are not overwhelmed takes place in '86, when there's a great revolt in Pernodia, so basically what's now Hungary. He crushes that. The second is in the aftermath of the great disaster of Augustus's reign, which the defeat of the three legions under the command of Varus by the Germans in AD9, and is Tiberius who ensures that that disaster does not lead to the complete collapse of the frontier and Germans flooding into Gaul and Italy. Suetonius quotes a letter that Augustus wrote to Tiberius during these later years, in which he writes to Tiberius, addresses him as, Dearest and bravest and most dutyful of generals. So This is a very, very impressive man.

If you were pointing purely on merit, Tiberius is obviously, obviously the best qualified, the outstanding candidate to succeed Augustus when the time comes as Emperor, as master of the Roman world. But we know from Soutonius's account that Augustus basically tries to do everything possible, not everything possible to avoid it, but he's constantly looking at other candidates from his own family. Tiberius is his son, not his son. What Augustus really wants is his own flesh and blood, so his grandsons, to succeed him, because he's had a daughter, hasn't he, Augustus, called Julia, who is not his daughter by Olivia, but by a previous wife. Exactly. And he wants her children to succeed him, not this guy who's somebody else's son.

Because that's what every Roman noblemen wants. They want their bloodline to be perpetuated. Julia has given him various grandsons and granddaughters, and Augustus has adopted the eldest of his three grandsons, guys called Gaius and Lucius, directly as his sons, so this is marking them out as the heirs. Tiberius is very, very sensitive to the fact that he's not in the line of succession. He makes a real point of trying not to tread on the toes of Gaius and Lucius, who, of course, are much younger than him, much less experienced, much less able. He He does his best, but he is a Claudian. He's a very proud man, and he can't really help but betray his resentment. This happens in various ways. Augustus marries Julia, his daughter, to Tiberius, and Tiberius and Julia don't get on at all. At one point, Tiberius is so aggravated by the situation he finds himself that he chucks everything in and he retires to roads, and he does it in a way that seems very openly to insult Augustus, who has publicly requested him not to go. Relations between the two men break down so badly that in the event when Tiberius says, Well, I had enough of roads.

I want to come back now, Augustus forbids it. So Effectively, Tiberius is in exile. Actually, in a measure of danger from Lucius and Gaius, who obviously in turn feel menaced by this very able, their elder. But then, first of all, in 82, Lucius dies, and then in 84, Gaius dies. This is basically the the plot twist in iClaudius, that it's Livia, Tiberius's mother, who is poisoning them and elbowing aside anyone who might stand in the path of her son to succeed to the threat.

But in reality, they die of natural causes. They're not poisoned, are they?

No, I mean, almost certainly not. Their death means that effectively, Augustus now has no choice but to adopt Tiberius as his heir. This means that Tiberius ceases He rises to be a Claudian, and he now becomes a Julian. This is what qualifies him to rank as a Caesar. It's a public proclamation to the world that Tiberius is now Augustus's heir. Sure enough, on the 17th of September, AD14, when Augustus dies, he is succeeded to the rule of the Roman world by his adoptive son, Tiberius, Julius, Caesar, Augustus. People will note that in that name, there is no hint of his Claudian ancestry.

Okay, so he's had the most fantastic apprenticeship to become Emperor. Then we get into the stories in Suetonius's account. We get into the story of how Tiberius actually does. Actually, it's not all attacking people with fish.

Purving on islands and stuff.

A lot of it is he's actually really good at being Emperor, and he's a very proficient and serious and impressive one.

There are whole chunks of Suetonius's account of Tiberius as an Emperor that makes him sound an absolutely model ruler. Suetonius says of Tiberius that although he's Emperor, he conducted himself much as any citizen in the days of the Republic might have done, and indeed for a while with fewer heirs. In other words, Tiberius is reassuring his fellow citizens that just because he has inherited Augustus's powers, that doesn't mean that the civic ideals of the Republic are being thrown in the dust.

He's not a monarch. He doesn't conduct himself like a monarch.

He does not. Well, this is what Suetonius tells us. Also, he, therefore, is very quick to scorn flattery. He gets addressed by someone as Dominus, Master, and Tiberius is appalled. Suetonius says, he told the man never to call him by such an insulting title again. Suetonius specifies that Tiberius shows immense respect towards the Senate, who are the great body of leading men who had guided Rome throughout the centuries of the Republic. He honors the ancient traditions of free speech. People are allowed to insult him if they want to, as he had done as a young man, so as Emperor, he secures the public peace against banditry, brigandage, and sedition. He shows concern for the security, stability, and well-being of the provinces. To governors who urge him to impose a heavier tribute on the provinces, Suetonius writes, he wrote back that a good shepherd should shear his flock, not skin them. Tiberius is a man who is concerned not just with the peace of the provinces, but with ensuring that they're prosperous. This all seems to be great. It all sounds brilliant. But then you read this, and then comes a key pivot point in the biography.

Suetonius writes, Only gradually did Tiberius reveal the true character of his rule. Suetonius's thesis is that the older Tiberius becomes, so the harder he finds it to restrain the monstrous vices that had always secretly been snoring at him. There are two vices in particular, one of which we've already discussed. It's his sexual perversities, his appalling deviancies, but also the fact that Tiberius secretly is a monster of cruelty.

That takes us back, obviously, to that introduction, the business with the fishermen, which we will come to. Take the cruelty first. I recently reminded myself reading your excellent translation of Suttonius that he particularly targets his rivals, so the other descendants of Augustus, the rest of the family, people who might be a plausible threat to him. He does that actually quite late, doesn't he? He's been Emperor for 15 years. He's actually been off on his pleasure Ireland on Capri for two years, and now he decides, Okay, I'm going to get rid of all Augustus's other descendants. That seems a bit weird to me.

Right. In AD29, he exiles the woman who is Augustus his last surviving grandchild. This is a woman called Agrippina. She's much loved and admired by the Roman people. Great favorite. But Tiberius doesn't care. He has her exiled to a remote and distant island, and She has given birth to three sons. The eldest of these is called Nero. The middle one is called Drusus. The youngest is called Gaius. He goes by an affectionate nickname, Caligula.

Little boots or whatever.

Yes, he's the youngest. The two elders, Nero and Drusus, Tiberius had adopted them. That, of course, is to signal to the world, to the Roman people, that these rank as his heirs. He wants them to succeed him. But when their mother falls from favor, so do they. Nero, like Agrippina, is exiled to a remote island, and Drusus is chained up in the bowels of the great palace on the Palatine Hill in Rome. Within four years, all three of them are dead, and Suetonius does not spare the reader the hideous details. At Agrippina, we're told that she is beaten so badly in prison on her island that she loses an eye. She goes on hunger strike. On Tiberius's orders, she's forcibly fed, but she just keeps spitting food up, and ultimately, she dies of starvation. Soutonius writes that Nero was driven to commit suicide after an executioner, pretending that he had been sent by order of the Senate, showed him a garrot and hooks, and that Drusus was reduced to such torments of hunger that he tried to eat the stuffing of his mattress. So these are the stories that are told.

Okay. The only one left is this youngest one, Gaius Caligula. And of course, we will be coming to him next week. So not content with that. According to Soutonius, Tiberius then becomes even more savage and brutal, doesn't he? Because there's been a failed coup against him, hasn't there? His former right-hand man, a guy called Sejanus, who has supposedly been carrying out this reign of terror in Rome, turns against Tiberius, he's accused of leading the coup. Tiberius gets rid of him, and then Tiberius just goes mad and starts killing everybody. Is that basically the gist of it?

That is the gist of it. I mean, it's very Mafia. So Janus is Tiberius' conciliere. He's trying to take out the boss. It's failed. And so the aging godfather launches these terrible reprisals. Again, Suetonius, who loves a shocking atroc, he doesn't spare us the details. He says of the people who've been fingered in this conspiracy, All those put death were flung down the Gammonian steps, dragged away on hooks. Since it was strictly forbidden by tradition to strangle virgins, the executioner made sure to rape young girls before throttling them, which I always think is a complete, such a repellent detail. Then anyone who wished to die was forced to live. Again, a cruel refinement. The poor fisherman who brought Tiberius the Mullet, with which we began this episode, he's not the only guy who gets flung from a cliff. On Capri, where Soutonius writes, the place where Tiberius used to watch executions is still pointed out. So there's a bit of field research. The very spot from where those found guilty after protracted and excruciating tortures would be flung on his command into the sea, down to where a band of marines would be waiting to smash the corpses with poles and ores, just on the off chance that any might still have the breath of life.

Then Soutonius gives us a particularly hideous torture that Tiberius has devised himself. No sooner had his victims been tricked into filling themselves to bursting with a large quantity of wine, then their urethras would be bound tight so that they would be put into agony, both by the tightening of the cord and by the distending of their bladder.

I'm actually struggling to work out how physically that would work. But it's fair to say that either Tiberius or Soutonius has a very strange imagination. Do you think that's fair, Tom?

I think it's entirely fair. It's not surprising that the Marquis de Zade kept a copy of Soutonius in his library. Because, of course, as well as the cruelty, there are these sex crimes that he's supposedly indulging in. The passages where Suetonius describes them, I think, definitely the most revolting section in the lives of the Caesars, quite possibly in the whole of Roman literature, which is saying something. Suetonius himself, he says that these deviances, that they shouldn't be discussed, and then, of course, he does. I I suppose the most notorious example, probably the one that people who are familiar with this story will have heard of, is Suetonius claims that Tiberius trained little boys whom he called his minnows to slip between his thighs as he was swimming and to tease him with the swirling of their tongues and the playfulness of their nibbling. That is by no means the worst.

No, it gets worse, doesn't it?

It does get worse. All these sections where Suetonius is describing not just what is being done to Tiberius himself, but he's staging erotic pageants, floor shows. It's quite hard to work out exactly what is going on, what positions are being adopted, because it's almost as though the Latin itself is breaking down, as though Suetonius is struggling to articulate the complexity of all these weird sex acts that Tiberius is commissioning. As we said, this account of what Tiberius is getting up to on Capri is so shocking, so celebrated, so notorious that it has damaged Tiberius's reputation for two millennia. But to return to the question that you asked, beginning of this half, is it biographical fact or is it muck raking? I think it is really telling that actually all the stuff that we've also been talking about in this episode, all the stuff about him investigating slave barracks and leading armies, sorting out the grain supply. Nobody remembers that. That's all boring. It's the lourid quality of what's being described. I think that these seem to exist in a completely different dimension. It's as though in the biography, we have Tiberius is a Roman politician like any other, the figure who might appear in Livy or something like that.

Then on Capri, he seems like some monster from some hideous tragedy or monstrous epic poem. I think that the clue to what is going on with Suetonius, and indeed with Tiberius, lies in that. It's the fact that Tiberius is being portrayed both as an Emperor like any other, but also as a figure of myth. That's the key to understanding him.

All right. Well, let's explore that a little bit more after the break. Tiberius held the rule of Earth and sea for 23 years without once permitting so much as the merest spark of war to smolder in the lands of either the Greeks or the Barbarians. And he bestowed upon the world both peace and the blessings of peace, right the way up to his dying day. And he did so what is more, with an ungrudging generosity of spirit. He was a man of deep common sense, the most skilled in penetrating to the heart of a person's secret intentions of all his contemporaries, whom he surpassed in wisdom as in rank. No one on both sides of his family had a nobler ancestry. No one was more sagacious or better read. So that's not Suetonius. That's Philo of Alexandria, who is a Judean philosopher and that's an obvious corrective to all the stuff about minnows and assaulting people with lobsters and killing all these people and whatnot. Now, Philo, obviously, is not as close to the circles of power as Suetonius would later be. So Philo is from Alexandria. But he'd been to Rome, hadn't he? He'd been there a year after Tiberius's death.

So he might well have spoken to people who knew Tiberius, and he's not completely to be discounted. So Tom, what's going on here? Why does that account differ so much from the lourded... I mean, I was about to say Hello magazine, but of course, it's not Hello magazine. It's far, far more scandalous than anything in Hello magazine than that version of Tiberius.

Yeah. Maybe one answer to that puzzle You might think, well, Philo is Greek. As you said, he's not familiar with Rome because he's from Alexandria. Perhaps he just doesn't really have a handle on what's going on. Perhaps you have to be in Rome to get the full sense of the horrors that are being reported of Tiberius. Back up for that is the fact that we do have another very detailed source for Tiberius's reign, and that is not a biography, but a history, and it's a history written by Rome's greatest historian, Tacitus, who hates Tiberius and corroborates many of Suetonius's darkest accusations. Tacitus, like Suetonius, agrees that Tiberius was hated by the Roman people when he died. According to both men, so both the great biographer and the great historian, the Senate hated Tiberius because he had been tyrannical, vengeful, murderous, and the people had hated him because they had sensed that he despised them. He took no pleasure in the things that gave them delight. He refused to lay on public entertainments. Gladiators in his reign were complaining that they had nothing to do. Not only is he a blood-stained pervert who goes around killing senators.

He's also a massive killjoy. This is not a good image. But the fact is that actually we do know, even though it hasn't survived, that there was at least one account of Tiberius's life that was very, very laudatory. The reason we know that is that Suetonius is clearly drawing on it, because although he doesn't name his sources, it's evident when you read his life that what he's done is basically He lifted stuff from one source, which is very positive, and he's listed other stuff from a second source, which is vituperative. He's basically just stitched them together, and he hasn't tried really to reconcile them.

Well, in your introduction to the 12 Caesars, which I was talking about in the last episode we did about how interesting it is, you make the point that the biography of Tiberius is the most unstable and the most unsatisfying in some ways of all the biographies in Soutonius's book because he never strikes a balance between... First, we have all the stuff that says Tiberius is brilliant, he's doing loads of stuff with grain. Then we have all the stuff that says he's absolutely terrible, he's throwing people off cliffs. But there's no attempt by Soutonius, really, to make any psychological sense the fact that you've got these two different versions of the same man's character.

Right, exactly. That's why it's so hard to get a handle on who the real Tiberius might have been. Is it possible to get any sense of the real man, the real politician, the real Emperor, behind the myth? I think it's difficult, but I think it is possible to make a case for Tiberius as having been an Emperor who probably is more sinned against than sinning when it comes to Suetonius and Tacitus. I think it's worth remembering that Suetonius is writing in an age. He's Secretary to Hadrian. This is a century on from Tiberius, a time when everyone in the Roman world takes the existence of an autocracy in Rome for granted. But that's not the world that Tiberius is born into and grows up in. Tiberius, I think, to a degree that Suetonius is unqualified to recognize, is a man who is torn between two different worlds, two different periods, the period of the Republic and the period of the Empire. It's really important, and this is something clearly that Suetonius innately does recognize, that Tiberius was a Claudian, that he's a sion of the greatest of all the patrician dynasties that had flourished under the Republic.

But he is simultaneously being raised as the stepson and then the adopted son of an autocrat, the first great autocrat in Roman history. There's an enormous tension there. As a Claudian, he's inherited this assumption that it's his role to serve the Republic, to win glory for himself, for his family, for his city in the traditional manner by organizing grain and conquering barbarians and all that thing. But simultaneously, as Augustus is dependent, he is expected to show gratitude and submission to the very man who has put the Republic in his shadow, who has established basically a monarchy. I think it's not surprising that this seems to have generated a degree of stress All the more so because, as we said, in Augustus's household, he is obliged to play second fiddle to people who are much younger and less accomplished than him, but who are being elevated simply because they have the blood of Augustus in their veins, and it's incredibly humiliating for him. But more than that, I think there is a ideological stress because he's torn between the sense of loyalty he feels towards his city and his class, which is these are Republican dynasties.

They're hostile by nature to monarchy. It is the Roman sense that a son should be dutiful towards his father, so he should show respect to Augustus. I think it's not surprising that Suetonius reports that Tiberius really hated his mother, Livia, as well he We should have done because it's basically Livia who's put him in this bind.

That idea that you get from Suetonius, that Tiberius is a man with two faces, that there's the good Tiberius and the bad Tiberius, that's not then psychologically implausible, is it? If he's a man torn between two very different roles that he feels from birth he has been appointed to play. One of them is the Claudian, the heir to the Republic, and the other is the heir to Augustus, who's basically going to inherit this autocracy. So it would make sense then that somebody who is himself a very complicated, torn, possibly quite unhappy man.

I would go so far as to say I am sure that that's what's going on with him. What makes it worse is that in a sense, under Augustus, the better things get for him, the worse they become. In AD4, after Gaiusinusius are both dead and Augustus adopts him as his son, he's now the heir to the rule of the world. He's going to succeed Augustus as Caesar. But this is a real nightmare of your principled opponent of monarchy. I mean, it's a real problem. But also there's a deep element of humiliation, even in being appointed as heir to the rule of the world, because he is no longer a Claudian. That's But the inside of him has now been erased. He's a Julian. Historians call the dynasty of Augustus the Julio-Claudians. There are no Julio-Claudians. You're either a Julian or a Claudian. Tiberius, by becoming a Julian, has ceased to be a Claudian. What's even worse is that as Augustus's adopted son, his status is effectively reduced to that of a child. Suetonius spells out exactly what this means for Tiberius, who by this point, he's a very seasoned general administrator. He's been the head of his own family.

And so Etonius writes, From that point on, so after his adoption by Augustus, he no longer acted as the head of a family nor held on to any of the rights that he had forfeited as a result of his adoption, for he neither gave out donatives nor granted slaves their freedom, nor could he receive inheritances or legacies, except by adding them to his personal allowance, which technically belonged to his father. So that's Augustus.

To give a modern analogy, which will appeal to our American listeners, it's a little bit like very, very senior American politicians who accept the vice presidency and are therefore reduced to just hanging around in the president's shadow. But it's that, but magnified to an extraordinary degree. The Romans take that very seriously, don't they? The idea of father and son. If he's been reduced to the level of Augustus's son and heir, he's not nothing, but he's a pale shadow of what he once was.

I suppose I would say the contrast with the vice president is that, what is it? It's worth a bucket of spit. You don't do anything. Tiberius, he's doing... I mean, he's going off, and this is the period when he's going off and stabilizing the frontiers and defeating the Germans and the Penunians and things like that. So he's doing things. It's just that his legal status is very humiliating to a proud man who has always cherished his status as a Claudian. Then in AD14, he becomes Emperor in succession to Augustus. And formerly, there is no title of Emperor. It's still a work in progress. Officially, he is hailed as Princeps, which means first man. Traditionally, under the Republic, this hadn't been a formal title, not one held as an office, but it was a title that was awarded by the man who was acknowledged by his peers in the Senate, best to have served the Republic. So Pompey had been called Princeps, for instance. I think for Tiberius, he must have been nagged by the sense that had it not been for his succession to Augustus, he might have inherited this title of princess. Princeps, not by virtue of succession, but by virtue of acclamation.

He might have earned it rather than just being given it.

Exactly. Again, you can see that that would make him feel very conflicted, very ambivalent about the status that he now has as princeps, as ruler of the world. I think that the key to understanding the tragedy of his rule and why he seems such an unhappy figure is that essentially he's trying to square ruling as a monarch with his ancestral respect for the traditions of the Republic. He demonstrates that this simply can't be done. I suspect that part of what is going on with the narratives of his bad behavior is that it's a reflection of the fact that Tiberius does come to feel contempt for his fellow citizens, that in a sense, the frustration he feels at his own role comes to be vented on his own family, on the Senate, on the So just to look at them in turn. Agrippina, Nero, Drusus, so that's the granddaughter of Augustus, the great grandsons of Augustus. These are not Tiberius's blood relatives. They are the descendants of Augustus, and they have their status by virtue of That, I imagine, would not have encouraged Tiberius to feel any great fondness for them. Although they're arrested before Segenus's attempted coup, they are eliminated after it.

It's understandable that Tiberius would have felt jittery in the wake of the attempt to overthrow him. He would have known that if people are going to try and overthrow him, then it's the bloodline of the Caesars, of Augustus, who are the obvious threat to him. I suspect that that is why he has them eliminated. Then the Senate, Suetonius says, Tiberius has shown the Senate immense respect. He's behaved incredibly well to it. It's only really towards the end of his rule that things start to get a bit bad. But two things to say about that. The first is that when you tot up the stats, there are only 52 people who are accused of treason, meisdas, the Romans called it, an offense against the Majesty of the Emperor. Half of these get off. It's basically 25, 26 people.

By the standards of most rulers in history, not tyrants, but most rulers of any kind, that's a pretty meager death at all. I mean, that's hardly the work of a blood-crazed maniac, is it? Yeah.

I mean, it's not Stalin. No. It's not Hitler.

I mean, Stalin would get through more than that in a day.

I think that with Sittonius, less so with Tacitus, but definitely with Sittonius, there's a sense he doesn't really understand the power politics what's been going on. He doesn't understand, perhaps, the challenges that Tiberius faced on Capri with maintaining his position in Rome. No one has ever tried to do it. Suttonius gives this ludicrous story that the treason trials start when a man is denounced for having removed the head of Augustus from a statue and replaced it with the head of someone else. Suetonius writes that thereafter it became a capital crime to beat a slave or even to change one's clothes near a statue of Augustus to carry a ring or coin with his image on it into a a tree or a brothel, which is clearly mad. And Tacitus, actually, in his account, explicitly says that this is not the case.

You could put your coat on near a statue of Augustus. No one would cut your head off. Exactly.

You could go and have a pee with one of his coins in your in a purse, and you're not going to be arrested.

And as for the people, so he does despise the people, doesn't he? But that's the norm for a Roman patrician, right? It goes to the territory. Of course, you're going to look down on the people. That's completely natural and normal.

Yes. We've talked about this before at many times on the podcast, but essentially politics in the Republic is about vibe rather than policy. It's about whether you are a conservative, a traditionalist, or whether you are a popularist, a populist, if you like. But they're all members of the aristocracy. Tiberius is not a Hilaris, and in that, he's a contrast to Augustus. Augustus is a great one. He's endlessly putting on gladiator shows and slapping people on the back and letting everyone know that he enjoys the pleasures of the people.

He's Nigel Farage.

Yeah. Tiberius is not that. He's above all He despises those things. He's Rory Stuart.

He's Rory Stuart, Tom.

I think he's a sterner, more implacable figure than Rory. But Tiberius is not... He despises people who flocked a gladiator shows. He's not interested in that. Instead, he sees it as his duty to conserve the resources of the state, to build up the coffers of the treasury. This in turn, of course, means that he doesn't need to impose swinching taxes on the provinces. That, of course, helps to explain why he's so popular in places like Alexandria. I think that Tiberius is clearly, he eliminates members of his own adoptive family in a very brutal manner. He does have senators put to death on charges of treason. But I don't think that by the standards of many other Roman emperors, let alone modern dictators, he is in any way a tyrant. He is an old-school Roman aristocrat. He is flinty, he's stern, he's imperious. So that's what gives him this severe public reputation. He's been raised with the traditional values and aspirations of his class. Although that had caused him great agony to also simultaneously be part of the family of an autocrat, he had sought to do his duty to the best of his abilities, and those abilities are considerable.

To be fair, Tom, his reign is 23 years long, and it is a reign of great stability, prosperity, and above all, peace. Think about all the civil wars, the chaos on the frontiers that has to come in Roman history. Tiberius's reign is a oasis of stability compared with what before and after.

I would say it's unprecedented because even under Augustus, Augustus had spent much of his reign conquering vast swathes of territory, the great disasters of the Penunian Revolt and the Massacre of Varus's legions. There's nothing like that under Tiberius. I would that never before in history had there been such a period of freedom from war across such a vast expanse of territory, and that in that sense, Tiberius's rule absolutely is an extraordinary achievement. And it's not surprising, again, that people in Alexandria, like Philo, who can recognize this, say, This guy was amazing.

How then do we reconcile that with the attacking people with fish, throwing them off the cliffs, interfering with children, all of this stuff that is so shocking and horrible.

So the Fisherman, this is clearly a folkloric tale. The idea of someone who cries out, Oh, thank goodness, I didn't tell them about the lobster or about the prickly pair or whatever. It's a story that gets recycled and recycled across the globe throughout time. There's a brilliant new book by Edward Champlin, who wrote a wonderful book about Nero that I've often This book has just come out, Tiberius and his Age: Myth, Sex, Luxury, and Power. I've been waiting for it to come out for years because I read some of Champlin's chapters on Tiberius years ago, and they're absolutely brilliant. In this book, he points out that this story of the Fisherman, it's not the only time that Tiberius features in a folkloric story in a way that makes him seem like a figure of myth rather than a real-life historical Emperor. Champlin lists many of the strange stories that are told about Tiberius. There's a very eerie story that Plutarch, the great Greek biographer, reports that a ship is sailing past an island in Greece. Here's this eerie, mysterious voice crying out the great God, Pan, is dead. Likewise, there are reports of a merman being discovered in a cave of the Coast of Spain.

Both of these wonders are reported to Tiberius, and he sets up panels to investigate what's going on. He is in stories where he explains his policies by means of fables. That comment, I want my governors to shear my sheep, not kill them. Tiberius is the the archetype of a good ruler. Again and again, he is the star of what might almost be called parables, stories that are told to illustrate timeless truths. Again, this is idea that Tiberius is being extracted from his own age and serving almost as the model of a good Emperor, a wise king. In fact, Champlin calls him Tiberius, the Wise and describes him as a figure unique in ancient folklore, a man who is repeatedly appearing in these stories, but who had actually existed.

But hold on, how do you reconcile that then with the terrible behavior? Because that seems to run a complete counter to the tradition that he's an absolute depraved monster.

It does, but in both cases, whether Tiberius is being cast as a monster or as the the model of a sage. In fact, often a Prospero, a magician on an island, because this is another theme. Frile mentioned it, there is no one wiser than Tiberius, but also that he can penetrate to the mysteries that other people can't see. In all of those, both the negative reports and the much more positive reports, Tiberius is cast as a man of absolutely exceptional learning with an ability to fathom dimensions of the supernatural in a way that no one else can. Just as you have, Tiberius is the guy to work out whether Pan is dead or what this merman is or all this stuff. Likewise, in Suetonius' account of all his orgies and depravities, there's this sense that Tiberius is making play with mythology. Suetonius writes, Tiberius set up shrines to Venus in woods and groves across Capri, where young boys dressed as pan and girls dressed as nymphs would solicit sex outside caves and grottos. Of course, rapes, fantastical copulations, bestiality. These are rife in the tales that are told of the gods in Greek mythology. Suetonius is implying that this is what Tiberius is doing, that he's restaging them for his own intellectual titulation as well as his erotic titulation.

Actually, what these stories are, therefore, they're almost, maybe this is too simplistic, but they're part of a literary formula that is establishing Tiberius as somebody who is... I was about to say, he's not exactly more than human, but he is maybe a degree more than human. He is just exceptional. He has that very unsettling sense of the divine about it, because, of course, he's part of the divine family, isn't he? The Imperial family.

Yeah, I think absolutely. Champlin says that it's a bit like reading a life of an American president, and then suddenly this American president is revealing that Elvis had actually lived or that the aliens at Roswell, he puts them on public television. It's the intersection between the day-to-day life of a politician who sorts out grain suppliers and so on with all kinds of mad stuff about pan or erotic floor shows or whatever. Whether it's positive or negative, it's casting Tiberius as the interface between the day-to-day and the weird, between the mortal and the divine, between the affairs of politics and dimensions of literature and mythology. The extent to which this reflects the historical Tiberius, I think, is now impossible to know. But clearly, there were qualities within Tiberius's rule and his character that made people feel he was an exceptional person, whether for bad or for good. That's why I think Suotonia struggles with him. It's a failure as a biography, but as a work of mythologization, it's incredible and very, very influential. It's Tiberius' misfortune that Suetonius should have emphasized the negative spin rather than the positive one, because I think there is clearly a very positive tradition as well in which Tiberius is viewed as having been the wisest of all rulers, not just in Rome, but across all of history.

That's a big claim. Tiberius died on the 16th of March 37, and he was 77 years old, and he was succeeded by that little boy that we talked about earlier, who he had spared, the brother of Neroendrusus, who was Gaius, who was better known by the nickname Little Boots, Caligula. If you think Tiberius is a good character, my words, we're going to have some fun with Caligula. And the good news for members of the Restes History Club, Tom, our very own Pretoria Guard, is that they can listen to that episode on Caligula right away. If you want to join the Restas History Club, it is, of course, at therestishistory. Com com. But if you don't, we will be back on Monday with, well, was he the most blood crazed, depraved maniac in ancient history, or is the reality more complicated? I have a terrible feeling that Tom is going to say it's a little bit more complicated, but we will find out on Monday. Time will tell. Yeah, time will tell. See you then.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.