Transcript of You Can’t Build Wealth While Carrying Other People's Problems

George Campbell here with a quick PSA before the calls start coming in. If you want to leave the money stress in 2025, you need a plan that works. So take what you learn today and put it to work in every dollar. Download the app and start for free today.

Normal is broken. Common sense is It's weird. We're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and host of the runaway hit on Ramsey Network, the Dr. John Deloney Show. He is my co-host today. Cody is in Nebraska. Hi, Cody. How are you?

You know, Dave, I am better than I deserve. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, guys, I'm going to start off a little bit of a doosy here, so I do apologize. But my wife and I have just recently found out that her parents are asking my wife's sisters that are under 18 for money for basic bills. We don't really know. I've heard in the past, you guys say, Don't say anything unless they come to you and ask for help or guidance. We're just stuck because my sister-in-law's are 10, 12, and then 17. We're confused on what to do.

How much money do they have?

The younger sister-in-law, they were working over the summer. Basically, what happened was is my 10-year-old sister-in-law told us that, Mom and dad kept saying that we don't have enough money for groceries this month, and blah, blah, blah. I offered them my $400 that I got from dog sitting, and they took it for groceries. Then my 17-year-old sister-in-law came over two weeks ago and said that they had, quote, unquote, I owed $1,000 from her for bills for last month to cover.

Is this true? Are they struggling that bad?

I would say so, yes. It's been talked about A couple of months ago, my wife overheard that they're $10,000 short a month. My father-in-law owns his own business, and I know it's been struggling for quite a while.

I want to put things in order. You hear us say all the time, you can't help family unless they come ask you. But before that, I'm always going to protect kids. Of course. And if you got a 10-year-old that's coming to you saying, Dad is saying, I don't have enough money for groceries. Need your dog sitting money, then I would... Personally, I would insert myself into that situation.

Okay. And that's what we were thinking because it's really hard for me to have respect for people like that. They are in a situation where they rely on everybody else to get them out of their problems. They blame everybody else except for themselves. A lot of this is self-caused just based off their career choices that they've had. So it's hard for me to have respect. It's hard for my wife to have respect as well.

How long How long have you been worried?

It'll be two years in February.

Okay.

I'm going to take back what I said. I would have your wife call, not you.

Okay. Yeah.

Here's the thing. If the two of you go over there at two years into this and insert yourself in this situation, you are changing the trajectory of the next 40 years.

Of course.

It's not simply the situation. Yes, what you're describing is 100% disgusting. I'm not questioning that at all. If they were abusing the children physically, we would just turn them over to Children Services.

Right. Yeah, that's not happening.

It'd be that simple, because we're just not going to allow that to happen. They're just abusing them financially. I think… But I don't think your wife… Your wife's what? 20 something years old?

Yeah, she's 23.

If she sits down with her mom and dad and says, You all need to stop this. You all need to become responsible adults. My guess is there's about a zero % chance that that's going to have any impact.

110 %.

If you show up saying, I don't respect you guys, they're going to take it out of their house. That's not going to help either.

That's a 40-year long discussion. I'm trying to think, in other words, what will work is more what I'm thinking about.

Dave, tell me if I'm wrong. My thought is when I say insert myself into that, it would be your wife calling mom and dad and saying, Can we talk? She's got to be careful because the backlash could come down on a 10-year-old, right? Yeah. But we just heard- Sorry. Go ahead.

My idea at first was my wife, I told her, I was like, What if you take your mom out to coffee and be like, Mom, we've heard some of this stuff from my sisters. How bad is it?

Is that really happening? Are you all really that bad? Yeah.

Is there ways we can help, or is there ways we can support you, or is there education? They may say, Absolutely not. Then it's about giving your niece or your sister-in-law, if you will, a safe place that she always knows she's loved somewhere else. But she's going to have eight years of mom and dad borrowing money.

Exactly. Exactly. That's our fear because they're setting the kids up for just a lifelong- Yeah, but dude, you're 25, you're 24.

I would stay out of that for right now.

Yeah, that's not. That's actually not true either. It's a bad It's a bad on-ramp to life, but it's not an on-ramp that can't be corrected. A lot of us have bad on-rampss. Then we get the opportunity to meet Jesus and change our life. Okay? Then those kids have got the same thing. They're not being physically abused.

Yeah. Let me rephrase. When I say insert myself, I don't mean you flex and put on a sleeve of a shirt and go bang on the door. I think your wife taking mom out for coffee, taking dad out and saying, Hey, we just happened to hear this. I'm worried about you all.

How bad is it? I'm worried about my sister's. Yeah.

How bad is it? Definitely. Then you all two have a hard conversation about, Could you help? Will you help? All that because the next question is going to be, Can we have $500? You all already have that predetermined discussion before she heads into that.

No, go ahead now. I'll give you the answer to that. No. You're right. Because they're saying they're $10,000 short. A month. So I'm not throwing good money after bad. Exactly. Ramsey's only give into situations where we create a sustainable story. We don't throw money at something, $5 at something that's $100 problem. You're not creating a sustainable story then. You've got to fix the problem. You got to get down under it. And so that's going to involve maybe what I would pay is for them to get with a Ramsey Coach. The Ramsey Coach boxes their ears and says, You have to sell the three cars. Guys, you cannot afford these stupid cars. You can't afford to live in that house. Oh, maybe you need to get a job because your business is not a business. It loses money. It's called a hobby. No, we're going to have to... These types of things are going on under the scene because if they're $10,000 short, the $1,000 from the 17-year-old or the $400 from the 10-year-old doesn't fix it, nor does $500 from you fix it. So don't do that. But Do say, I'll cheer you on, I'll help you do a budget, I'll connect you with some people and pay for it for you to get some coaching, to get yourself out of this.

You've struggled with this your whole life. I've watched you. I'm your daughter, and I'd love for you to be free from these demons.

You and I have talked about this before on the air, but parents don't like hearing money advice. If she sits down and says, You all need to start, that's not going to go well. But that idea of sitting down and saying, Hey, I'm worried about you. How bad is it? Are you all okay?

Then tell them your story.

That's a different avenue.

We are on a budget, and it's giving us great peace. We have sold some stuff to be able to get our income in line with our outgo, and it's given us great peace.

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Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, is my co-host and is with us in New Orleans. Hi, Ann. How are you?

Hello, I'm fine. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Our honor. How can we help?

Okay, my question is, my husband and I, my ex-husband and I, were a cosigner on my son's back in 2004. Since that time, my son is unable to pay his mortgage because he's unemployed. He lost his job.

Since 2004?

No, he purchased a condo in 2004. This past April, he lost his job, and he's been unable to pay the mortgage.

How many times did you pay it since 2004?

It's happened before, about 10 years ago. He ran into trouble paying his mortgage, and he was able to do a forbearance. Of course, I assisted financially at that time.

You keep using the word unable. Is he unable or is he unwilling?

Why do you not have a job since April?

One of my best friends in the world is a paraplegic. He is unable.

No, he's physically capable. He has not found a job since He says he's looking and he can't find a job.

One of the hottest hiring markets in human history. He's chosen not to work.

I guess so.

Okay. I just want to call a spade a spade because it helps us make It's all your decisions, right?

Yeah. Now- Yes, I understand. You're still on the mortgage?

Yes. My ex-husband and I are cosigners, so we're responsible for paying the note if he does not.

And he's not been paying it?

Yes. I have been paying it since April. My ex-husband made about three of the mortgage payments. Now, I want to know what would be the best avenue for me to convince my son to sell it, let it go for foreclosure, and I told him, Or else you get a job and you pick up the payment. But I don't want it to go to foreclosure because I don't want it to affect my credit. I My credit rating is 820.

Every time it's paid late, it affects your credit.

Yes, I understand. I just don't know if there's any options for me.

Is he on the note at all?

It's the co-signer.

Is he on the note?

My son is the owner of it.

Yeah, he's on the note. She's the co-signer. So all three of you. You can't force him to sell it. You can just talk him into selling it. Will he sell it if you tell him to?

No, he's dragging his feet about that. He really doesn't want to.

No kidding. Well, he's dragging his feet because he knows you're going to pay. For 20 years, you build them out.

Yes, I understand that.

You've probably given him some stern talking to us over the last 20 years. Yes, I have. You still paid it. Yeah, He's dragging his feet because you taught him how to. I think you have to sit down and say, I'm not paying this rent. Dave, I'll leave it to you. I mean, it's going to ruin your- Yeah, you're going to get foreclosed on if he gets foreclosed.

Yeah. That's how this works.

Can you afford to buy him I could.

But I just don't know what my best options are, because if I buy, if he would tell me the condo, then it's mine, for me to do what I want with it.

Exactly. Then you just sell it. Then you sell it. Resell it and get your money back out. At least that way, you didn't lose anything. But yeah, you could just say, All right, let's get it appraised. I'm going to buy it from you. Then you put it on the market and sell it. That's what's best for you. That is unbelievably aggravating, and it's not necessarily what's best for him. What's best for him is to experience some pain. But he's not going to in this scenario unless you do. That's the problem with cosigning. You get to experience the pain with him.

He's going to play chicken with you, and you've got a lot more to lose than he does financially, right?

Yes, I do.

What's the condo worth?

Maybe about 40,000. Worth? Forty-five. No. Well, he would be lucky if he could get 60 for it.

Oh, my God. What do you owe on it?

Thirty. Okay. And he's got 11 more years.

Okay. Go tell him that he can no longer screw up your life with his laziness. He needs to sell you this condo. Even if you buy it for whatever, have a real estate agent give you an appraisal, buy it for that amount, put it back on the market and resell it, and he needs to move.

Okay.

Yeah, that protects you. For some reason, I thought this was a $600,000 condo. It's a $60,000. You may lose a couple of thousand bucks here or there by moving all this gyration around, but you need to get out of this trap you put yourself in, and the trap is cosigning. You can't get out of the trap. You're either going to be an enabler or you're not going to pay, and then he's going to get foreclosed on, which means you're going to have a foreclosure on you. Then they're going to come around looking for all of you, wanting some money out of you all because the condo won't bring enough at Repo to even cover the old mortgage on it. But it's a piece of crap condo to start with.

I'm the one- And- I'm sorry.

Will you forgive your sofa the divorce, finally?

Yeah. Yes.

You're still trying to make that right with him. Stop. It's 20 years.

Yes.

You're going to lose some money, but you're also going to lose your relationship with your son. It's not worth it.

Yeah. I would buy it from him, have him move out, and turn around, put it right back on the market and sell it. If you lose a little bit that way, that gets you out of this trap. Then you have a stand-alone relationship with your son that's mother-son, that is longer cosigner because cosigner is putting a strain on everything. It's making you do things you don't feel good about.

It makes you resent your son. Every time that phone rings, you feel your chest tighten up because what's he going to ask? It's altered your relationship.

What's he going to ask for now? Because you're aggravated with him like we are for being lazy, not working since April. My God, how much does it take to pay the condo note on $30,000? You can do Uber one day a month and pull this off. This is about the laziest human I've run into. That's pretty rough. I mean, really. Yeah. Think about it. It's not like it's a lot of money. I don't even know how the boy's eating. Oh, yeah, I do. And.

Yeah, and making sure he's got For some reason. Yeah.

So, Anne, you got to stop it. You put him out and let him figure out how to do life and just love him from a distance that doesn't include your checkbook for the rest of his life. And that's the biggest favor you can do him and yourself Mom's and dad's out there never, ever cosign.

It's not an act of love. It's not.

It's the ultimate enabling, and it locks you into enabling because out of self For preservation, you have to cover the stupidity of the other party.

What about this, Dave? I'm trying to think of how this situation for her could go wrong. Is there a moment when, and again, I know I'm speaking in ratios here, but $50,000 against what Anne has is not a lot of money. Can she buy this thing and hand it over to him and dust her hands off, walk away? Is that too much enabling?

I wouldn't do that, no. I think he's not going to move.

He's not going to sell it.

To his mom? Yeah. Well, then I would just take the pain of being foreclosed on.

You would?

I just stopped. Okay. You're either going to sell it to me or the days of me giving you money are done.

They're over. That's what I'm getting at.

It's protecting yourself. Either you're going to sell this to me or you're going to have to figure it out. Okay. I'm done. Because this is so bad for him. She stunned his emotional growth. I mean, he's six years freaking old.

Yeah.

He can't get a job since April to pay condo notes on $30,000. This is lame. Yeah. This is really a lame boy.

Especially when we talk to elementary school teachers trapped in a New York apartment during COVID who pay off six figures because they drive and scratch and claw and flip and do whatever they got to do. It's tough, man.

Tiff could sell enough clothing out of his closet. Plasma. Plasma your way to that one. It's just not any money. You got to get him free of you and you got to get free of him in order to have a decent relationship with him and in order for him to ever be a real man.

It's going to cost you that precious 820 that you're really proud of. It's going to cost you that. Who cares? Who cares? Let that stupid thing go.

Oh, my gosh. That condo has never been late. She paid her on time every time. Every time. It's never been late. It wouldn't be 8: 20. This is the Ramsey Show. Running a business is already complicated. You don't have time to become a health insurance expert, too. When you're self-employed, there's no HR department to lean on. But that's where my friends at Health Trust Financial come in. For over 20 years, they've been helping families and small business owners cut through the confusion and find the right health insurance plan for their stage of life and budget. Health Trust Financial offers unbiased advice, and there's never any pressure. Health Trust Financial helps you shop smarter and avoid overspending. Most of their clients save hundreds of dollars every month. Real savings you could put back into your business or toward building wealth. I've worked with them for over two decades, and they're the only Ramsey-trusted health insurance advisors. So get clear on your options and talk to a real person who can help you make confident decisions about your health coverage. Go to healthtrustfinancial. Com today. That's healthtrustfinancial. Com. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey. Personality is my co-host today.

Judy is in Los Angeles. Hi, Judy. Welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hi. I am a long-time listener and first-time caller.

Okay.

I'm on Baby Step 6, and I listen to your show all the time, and you recommend never to cosign for someone. Correct. But I'm in a situation where I do want to cosign for somebody under a certain circumstance. My husband's cousin, her cousin, she's been on Section 8. Anyway, she lost that. Now she's in her 60s. She needs to get an apartment. There's a special needs trust that her parents have set up for her. In order for her to get into an apartment, she needs to have someone cosign, or her brother, who is the trustee, refused to do so. I was wondering, then I- Warning, warning, warning.

Why would her brother, who loves her more than you do, he her brother, for God's sakes, not want to cosign?

He doesn't love her. Oh, Paul. He actually doesn't mind if she goes home. Yes, no, that's true. I don't believe it. It is totally true. It's from a very dysfunctional family. He's not willing. His wife is telling me he's willing to let her go homeless if they have to.

There is more to this story than you are telling or believing.

Well, she has a problem. She has personality disorder. That's why. That's right. She's in her 60s. She's never worked in her life. She always was on Section 8. She lost that.

Who is the custodian of the Special Needs Trust?

Her brother.

Her brother. Will you have Does she have access to the funds for this apartment, or does she have access to the funds?

Right. What I'm going to ask, if it's okay, if that works, if you agree, that's just the right thing for me to do. No, it's not. I can try to ask the brother for 14 months of pay in an account to me, and then I will transfer that to her monthly. Is that okay? If funding is available for a whole year, is it safe for me to cosign?

No. What if she trashes the place?

She trash the place, but she might… No, she's not like that, but she might have trouble with neighbors. That's the problem she has.

Or gets kicked out or has four people over or gets sweet-talked into.

She won't have people She'll just like, she loves cats. She'll probably take care of them.

Break all the rules. Rules don't apply to her. Rules don't apply to her.

Yeah. Judy, we're going to tell you, no. If this money is available, then she can get the apartment under her You can write the checks every month for her. If she can't do that, that's fine.

But you don't need to cosign.

But how do I prove to the apartment people that there's money available?

Well, you would have to have the money available.

Yeah, print off a statement.

Yeah. Can I show? Did I show them? What do I do? Because we're in California, there's a lot of these places, and I don't live in the same town as she does. So it's not easy for me to take her somewhere and talk to somewhere.

Well, you get on the phone with the apartment manager manager and you say, This is what's going on. She has a special needs trust. Brother's going to send you documentation. He's going to end the documentation, send it to the property manager and say, We'll set aside the first 14 months and go ahead and just prepay the rent for 14 months. That's fine, too.

Oh, it's just prepaid?

Yeah, but you don't cosign.

They're going to try to get you to cosign.

Because you have a blind spot here, kiddo. This lady, she's gotten a hold of your heart and she's sweet, and she does need someone to help her, but we need to define help very carefully. Help involves her behaving, and you're not willing to make that requirement, nor can you make that guarantee based on her 60 years of misbehavior. You're going to get screwed if you do this. Please don't do it. It's going to go up in flames.

I tell the apartment that I have money, but I need to show some proof, right? So the trust.

Yeah, the brother is going to have to send documentation.

Yeah. And by the way, you don't have this money, Judy. You still have to go through a guy that you say doesn't even love her, doesn't care about her, doesn't care if she ends up on the street. That's right. So all of this is like two hypotheticals removed from reality.

Let me help you with this, okay? It's not that he doesn't love her. It's from the 16 times he tried to help her, and it burned him, and he's done being burned, so he's putting up a boundary. That's different than not loving. You're I'm calling it not love in a dysfunctional family. I'm calling her a dysfunctional person who needs love and help, but has burned everything around her to the ground to the point her own brother won't help her. You can't put that on him. I'm not going to let you do it. I don't even know him. He's not the jerk in this story. There's not a jerk in this story. There's a sad lady with mental illness, and you're going to get burned to the ground when her mental illness activates if you're signed on the documents.

Yeah, I don't sign. I don't know an apartment complex. It won't take your check if you got it. If they won't take your money, so she can get her her own place.

Listen, I'm a landlord. If I know what's going on here, I'm not putting her in there.

That's fair.

Because prepaying the rent ain't half my problem. It's the 93 cats that end up in my building.

Or all the neighbors or whatever.

Or she burns the neighbor's cat live in the front yard. I don't know what's going to happen here. I don't know what's going on with her. No, I don't want her as a tenant under any circumstances. Co-signer, prepaid, double paid. No, thank you. Life's too short to sign up for drama as a landlord. That's what you're going to face, hon, more than anything else. Please, honey, don't confuse this. You're trying to do a nice, good, noble thing in a really naive and unwise way. That was kind.

That's the best way to say it. I think this is a bigger conversation, Dave. When you want to help somebody and you You get all these scenarios in your mind, and then you spend all these nights and weeks worrying about it, all of this phone call could have been already headed off. You could have already sat down with your brother. You could have already called an apartment complex and taken all these worrying variables off the table so that you know, Okay, here's the final step here. You probably would have found out a long time ago, you either don't need to be a cosigner or nobody's going to let her live there. You're going to have to come up with another option. But there's always like, Well, then I might do this, and then after that, I'm going to do this. You don't even know if all this is going to happen. You're so spun up about it. Just go find out.

I cosign for stuff when I was young and foolish, and I ended up paying it. One poor guy cosign for me. I went bankrupt. He ended up paying it. I had to go back and pay him later. His wife still don't like me 35 years later. It's okay. It's valid. She got screwed. They didn't ultimately get it, but she thought she did. I get it. I completely get it. Proverbs 17: 18 says in the scripture, One lacking in sense cosines for another. When I cosigned, Judy, I was lacking in sense. If you cosign this, the Bible says you're lacking in sense. I didn't say it. Get mad at God. Don't do it. That was pretty good.

I mean, you brought the Bible out, so There you go.

There we go. Brought the Bible out. Yeah, that's the final right there. That's the final one. That's the one. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Kim is in New York. Hi, Kim. How are you?

Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

I wanted to know how to save money for a mortgage down payment while you're paying rent.

Very hard.

It is.

How much debt have you got?

I can go through the numbers and I can tell you- No, just how much debt have you got?

Just give me the total.

I want to say about 40,000.

How much of that's your car?

Well, to me and my husband together, it's about… I owe 16, and he owes about 20. Okay.

How much is the car?

My car total with the insurance. Insurance or just the car?

No, the debt on the car. How much debt is on the car?

About 16. Okay.

Of your 40. Yeah, of your 40. So half of it's your car? Yeah. Okay. Here's the simple answer, but it's not a simple answer, is when you don't have any debt payments, you'll have more room in your budget. So before you start worrying about saving for a down payment on a house, let's clear the debt off. That may mean selling a car. It may mean taking an extra job. It will mean not eating out. It will mean not going on vacation so that I can get out of debt. Because if you didn't have any payments, you'd have money to save for your down payment. That's where it comes from. Your most powerful wealth building tool is your income. Don't give it to somebody else, and then you'll have it to save for a down payment. Simple but hard.

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Thanks for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Patrick's in Fortworth. Hi, Patrick. How are you?

I'm doing good, Dave.

Good. How can I help?

Hey, I've got a question. I've got a patent pending on a mobile application, and I'm wanting to raise funds to get my MVP off the ground, right? And I've had a friend of mine offer to give me a loan to do this, but I've been listening to you since I was 12 years old. Lost everything last year in a divorce Worst, literally everything. And I'm wanting to go back up. But I don't want to give up my entire percentage of my company in getting with a traditional investor, and I really don't have access to traditional investors. I'm just curious because it's hard to crowdfund with a patent pending also. I'm just curious what you might have on that.

Remind me again what the patent is on.

It's on a mobile application.

A mobile application.

Like a phone application.

Like a phone app.

Like an app for your phone. Why do you have to have a patent for a phone app?

Well, it's just something new that is…

Well, I mean, it's a- You're going to put it in the Apple Store, and you're going to put it in the Apple Store and you're going to put it in the Google Play Store and people are going to download it onto their phone, right?

Right. But it's a new and novel idea that nobody has ever put into play before.

You don't need a patent for that.

Is it a copyright?

You don't need a patent for that.

No, he told me I couldn't copyright it, but basically it would make it to where that somebody else couldn't redo that They couldn't make another… Because I've started the process to patent a process in the app.

It's like- Okay, so- It's like- All right, stop. Okay, so how much are you spending to get the patent pending?

I've already paid that.

Okay, so you're done. I've already paid that. Okay, so why do you need money to launch something in the Apple Store? It doesn't cost anything.

Well, in order to get the actual application built, the MVP, the minimum viable product, and to build that- You've not built the app yet? No.

You're patent pending the idea or the technology? No, the technology is not done.

It's not.

Okay. Are you not a programmer? You're not an engineer?

I'm not. No. I I've been on my own since I was 16 years old. I bought my first business at 24. I bought and sold several different businesses, but I lost everything last year, and I'm just starting over.

Okay, so all you need is the engineering done?

Right.

You need a software engineer, right? Mm-hmm. What's it going to cost to turn this idea into an app?

The lowest quote I've got is around $24,000 to $35,000.

We've built a bunch of apps here. We've got apps all in the store. I put them up, taken them down. We've got a little thing called the Every Dollar app that we've got a lot more than that invested in, obviously, but we've also got tens of millions of people in it and all that. But even out of the gate, we had more than that in it. I'm just trying to think how we would do it because I don't borrow money and I don't bring in outside investors. You know that. You said you've been listening.

I don't want to give up. I don't want to give up- I wouldn't do it.

What I would do- He even told me he would give it to me at 5%, but I don't want to take a loan.

No, don't take money from your friend.

No. What part? I don't know. You've been listening to us. You knew I was going to tell you not to dig any of this.

What's your panic? You feel panicked. Are you about to get beat to market or something? If you hold a patent, can't you exhale and go earn 30,000 bucks?

Well, the thing is, yes, I have probably eight to nine months left of the status. My lawyer, he wants to do a non-provisional, which is potentially going to be 20 years protected, right? My uncle was an engineer, not in mobile stuff, but that's how he made his money. He had invented one of the largest manufacturing factories in the United States. I've run by the seat of my pants in business.

What do you… Yeah, I know. I can tell. Do Do you have a job?

Yeah, I'm a truck driver. I got my CDL, and I bought and sold three different semi-trucks, but I lost almost $400,000 income last year during the divorce, and I was paying $3,000 a month in I was for it, and it just ate me alive. I did have $15,000 in debt in that, but I've- Okay, let me stop you.

There's something in this situation that smells to high heaven of desperation. You sound so desperate.

You called it an application when you're talking to us.

It's not- It's like an app. It's a phone app, for God's sakes. This is not rocket search. You sound so in a hurry and so chaotic and so desperate. And all of those things tell me you're getting ready to do something really stupid. Because every time I get that sound in my voice like a beagle chasing a rabbit, that's about the time I'm about to do something dumb. I can hear it on you. I'm just being honest with you, all right? What I would tell What I would tell you to do is this. I would tell you, slow your butt down. Take a breath. That's what I'm going to tell you to do. And then if you want to proceed with this, the only idea that comes to mind structurally on how to pull this off is to find a good software engineer and tell them you will pay them double their rate out of the proceeds. If this thing is really a big deal, Double. It's $24,000 worth of stuff. I'm going to pay you $48,000. The first $48,000 that we make on this, I'm going to pay you out, and I'm going to pay you double, and then they're done.

And the problem is, as soon as you get the thing up, and here's what I'll teach you about apps, they're not one and done. You can't ship it and forget it. A hundred % of apps that that are successful are constantly being worked on and iterated. The negative thing about digital is you have to constantly work on it. The great thing about digital is you get to constantly make it better. So you're not frozen. When I print a book, it's either good or bad, I'm stuck with it. It's on the shelf for the next 40 years. It's a printed book. When I put something out in the digital world, I can change it tomorrow, and I can change it the next day, and I can change it the next day and make it better as I go along. And I will. The Every Dollar Budgeting app does not even resemble the app that was launched under the name Every Dollar originally. It has iterated and upgraded, iterated and upgraded, iterated and upgraded almost every other week for years. And so your software engineering costs have just begun, my friend, if this is actually going to work and be successful.

Your patent stuff is probably early and tremendous overkill. The number of times that people steal something on an Apple store is just not that big. It doesn't happen much except the Chinese steal and stuff, and duplicating it. But I'm talking about the number of times that someone just comes in and scarfs up an idea because you didn't have it patented. I'm pretty sure none of the budgeting apps out there that are the top budgeting apps are patented, just to give you an idea. Of course, here's the other thing. As soon as you patent it, you're going to iterate it and change it. Then you got to update the dadgum pay. Yeah, this is not... I don't know. Yeah, I do know. I would slow down breathe. If you want to involve a software engineer and pay them 1. 5 or pay them 2. 0, what they're worth, but they only get paid out of the proceeds. If there are never any proceeds, they get nothing. If it never works, they put in their money for nothing. If they want to join the adventure for some extra money, that might be a way to draw somebody in.

But the other thing you could do is you just could go make some money, like John said, and then just write somebody a check to have the first round of software engineering done. But be prepared. As soon as you start making a little money, you're going to spend most of that back into new software engineering because you're going to upgrade and iterate. You do not ship it and forget it in the digital world, my friend. This is the Ramsey Show.

Hey, it's Rachael Cruz. The holidays are here, which means family time and giving back and remembering what the season is all about. And let's be real, it also means shopping. You all, if you're anything like me, December gets really busy and really expensive. It's harder to stay intentional with your spending. And that's why I love shopping on Amazon, especially this time of year. Named the lowest priced US online retailer for nine years running by Profitero, a third-party analytics and research firm, Amazon's prices are up to 14% lower across top categories and beat competitors by up to 5% in key gift categories. Between amazing deals, stress-free shopping, and fast shipping, Amazon makes gift giving simpler, the holiday season a little brighter, and helps me keep my budget in check. That allows me to get back to enjoying the season. What more could a busy mom ask for? So for more information about Amazon's low prices and easy, affordable holiday shopping, head to Amazon today. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. Dr. John Deloney, number one best-selling author. I'm the number one person, Dave. Ramsey personality, you're the number one person.

I'll take it. That's it. I'll take it. Yeah, you're all of that. Number show on the Ramsey Networks. Not really, but a big show on the Ramsey Networks. He's number one everywhere in his mind. So check it all out. He's here to help me this hour since my mouth is apparently not working. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Thomas is in South Dakota. Help us, Thomas. What's up?

Hey, Dave. Hey, John. What's going on? I'm calling today because I'm 18 years active duty military. Thank you. Unfortunately, a couple of years ago, life happened, and I ended up getting divorced. With that, before we got divorced, my ex-wife and I, we were completely debt-free, and I was able to contribute 60 % of my income towards investments. Holy. 40 % was going to my TSP, and another 20 % was going to my kids' college funds. Wow. But now that I'm divorced, I've been divorced now for two years, I have found myself accumulating a little bit of debt. I'm back at $57,000 I'm the worst of debt.

What in the world? What did you buy in two years?

I bought a vehicle. I'm selling your baby steps.

What truck is it?

It's a Ford raptor.

Well, I think we found the problem, Thomas.

That's definitely part of it.

No, it's the whole thing.

That's all of it. Taylor Swift wrote a song about it.

It's your divorce raptor truck. We know what it is.

It's called I'm the Problem. It's me.

I'm calling because I can pay this debt off pretty quickly. What do you make? I make about $78,000 a year.

You make $78,000 a year? Yes. And you owe what on the raptor?

I owe 57. Well, I owe 37 on the Rapter and $18,000 in credit card debt that I used to purchase furniture and stuff for the house I got divorced. Okay. I still contribute the 60 % of my income towards my TSP.

You can't afford to do that. You're broke.

So I was thinking, so my philosophy here, and what I was looking for is some guidance. I was thinking about cutting off my TSP. However, in the divorce, my ex-wife decided to go ahead, Hey, your whole military pension is yours. I just want half the TSP. I've still been contributing because in my head, I was like, I'd rather make a little bit more money on the back-end versus stop contributing altogether and out of spite, just not contribute because I don't want her to get in.

When does she get half? Now?

'67.

What?

No, wait a minute. That's not possible. Is this divorce isn't final, is it?

It is. Yes, sir. When we went to court, I had several different options that I could do.

And you agreed to give her half of your TSP at age 67?

Yes.

Not what half of it becomes by then, but whatever's in there. That's not right. Something's wrong.

Based off of what the lawyers were saying and stuff, they said that was the better of the deal.

Apparently, these lawyers didn't take math class. That's a horrible deal. All right, so you need to get clarification I don't think you understand what really happened, or you got the worst deal in the history of divorces.

I've never heard of this deal. This is what you got.

It is normal for you to transfer half of your TSP to her now. That is a normal process in a divorce, and she can roll that into an IRA and have no taxes. It is very strange for her to get anything at age 67. I've never I've heard of this in 35 years of doing what I do. That's strange.

What they wanted to do was she would get half of my military pension on top of half of the TSP.

Yeah, that would be normal. But half the TSP today, not at 67.

Well, now with the deal that they had worked out was she doesn't get any of the military pension. She only gets the TSP.

Okay. Now or at '67?

At '67 when it matures. Okay.

Then it should be half. Like your half of your… How much is in your TSP today?

166.

Okay, so half would be 83,000, okay? Right? Yes. Today. So whatever 83,000 grows to at age 67, she should get. But she shouldn't get half of everything you put in between now and then, because otherwise, you would put in nothing now and then. Right.

So that was going to be my next question is if I just stop contributing altogether- You have to contribute.

Listen, if you did the worst deal in divorce history and she gets half of your TSP, regardless of whether you put money in or not. That's the worst deal I've ever heard of in my life. I've never even heard of you get half at 67. That's just very weird, dude. Like these lawyers are completely freaking incompetent weird. But if you did do that, you need to go back and clarify, is it what half of it today becomes what 83,000 becomes at 67, or is it just half of whatever's in there? Because if it's half of whatever's in there, you don't put another dime in it. You're done with that. You got to go put money in Roth IRA, and you got to put money in other stuff. But the TSP is off limits to you because she's going to take half I have everything you put in there for the next... How old are you?

I'm 36.

Yeah, good God. For 30 years, you're going to contribute to her with no thank you. You did the worst deal ever. So no, We're not doing that. That's dumb. That's dumber than a rock, man. I'm telling you, I'm so pissed at your lawyer right now. I can't see. I want to smack him. This is horrible. But you did the deal. I guess it's final. You need to go back and get clarity If she gets what 83,000 becomes or if she gets half of whatever's in there.

It's going to be whatever's in there. Otherwise, they would have just transferred the 83 out.

They should have just transferred the 83 out. That's what they should have done. That would be normal instead of this dumb butt thing they did.

Yeah, John is correct. It is whatever's in there later because I tried to fight and get the half now, but then there were like- Then here's what it is.

She gets what that half becomes because it's not going to become anything else because you're not going to have anything else do it. You're You're stupid if you do. But you are the one that signed this divorce decree also. Oh, my God, this is a horrible, man.

It's just horrible. She has 30-year claim on future earnings for you. Jeez, man. You all have kids?

We have two of them.

I've heard a future- This is I want to get away from this woman really bad.

This is what this is.

I've heard, and rightfully so, a future claim on future earnings if you've got kids through the age of 18. If you were making 25 grand, it's something you're making 150 grand. That's child support. That's not this.

That's child support.

That's normal. That's what I'm saying. I've heard of that.

That's normal. But half the 401k is normal. Half the TSP is normal. But you transfer it now and it rolls out into an IRA, and then she does whatever she does with it. Okay, Your answer is you have a truck you can't afford that you bought while you're grieving your broken heart, and your heart was broken by your wife and your idiot attorney. You have two reasons for a broken heart. You've got to sell this truck, honey. I love Raptors. I I drove one over here today. I like them, but this truck is brain damage, so it's killing you. You cannot afford to drive this truck. It's more truck than you can afford with the money you make. Sell your truck, get your budget back balanced, and move into the future. And please don't put anything else in this TSP. The calendar might have flipped, but the way to win with money hasn't changed. Living on a budget, staying out of debt, and building wealth intentionally. Now, here's the deal. Most banks make their money when you don't do that. They're fine if you stay broke and frustrated. And that's why I recommend Fairwinds Credit Union.

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All right, today's question comes from Abigail in West Virginia. Abigail writes, My in-laws are too much to deal with, specifically my mother-in-law. Abigail, she knows you wrote this. I don't know how mother-in-laws know. They just know. She has to stick her nose into everything. She has a key to our house, which was bought by my husband before we got married. She's folded our laundry, cleaned our house, and moved stuff while we were not at home. Oh, man. I've asked my husband to talk to her, but he told me he couldn't do it and told me to chill out.

You don't have a mother-in-law problem. You have a husband problem.

You have a husband problem.

He's a wuss.

God Almighty. That makes me so uncomfortable to think my mom would come over to our house. My mom's amazing, but my mom would come over and go through us.

Unsolicited.

To go through our stuff.

Without your permission.

Even more uncomfortable, as my wife said, I need this to not happen again. I said, I can't do it. I can't do it.

I'm scared of my mommy.

Oh, my gosh. Abigail, you have a husband problem.

He needs to run down to Walmart on aisle 3 and pick up a backbone.

Yeah, and some pampers while he's there because he might TT in his pants while he talks to mommy. You all need to have this conversation.

This is awful.

Yeah, sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry. This is awful. Mother-in-law is going to do what? Here's the deal. I think if, and maybe she's controlling, I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think mother-in-law is trying to love her little baby the best she knows how.

She's trying to be helpful, and she's screwed up.

Yes. She doesn't think you're loving him the right way, but she's not going to say anything. She's just going to keep doing it. I think your cute little hubby is a gigantic 14-year-old, and he needs to grow up real, real quick.

Yeah. Andrew, if you say a thing, you start a 10-year feud, you can't say a thing. The only thing you can do is encourage your husband to have a backbone. This is out of line. There's no boundaries here. This is ridiculous, and it needs to stop yesterday. Tell him you want the locks changed, and you want him to call his mother and tell her to not come in your home without clearing it with both of you first that you're a married couple, and this is weird, and she shouldn't be doing this. Mom, we love you. Thank you for the help. You can't do this anymore. I've changed the locks. Your keys are not good anymore, and you don't need to come in our home anymore. It's a real short, calm conversation, and he needs to man up and do that. If he cannot do that, you do not have a mother-in-law problem. You have a husband problem, and you'll need to sit down with a marriage counselor.

Correct. By the way, to husband When you're listening to this, you don't call your mom and say, Hey, my wife doesn't want you coming in the house to go on anymore. No, you gober. You be a grown up and you say, I. I messed up.

Leave and cleave.

That's right.

Leave your mother and father.

We need to figure out how to do these things on our own.

And cleave to your spouse.

Godly, dude. And mother-in-laws, don't break into your kids' homes and do their laundry for them unless there's a medical crisis or a newborn and they've asked for your help.

Don't do Even if there's a newborn and they ask for your help, you still ask permission.

Yes, of course. But that's what you've been invited in.

To show up with a key that you had before they were married. So one of the best practical jokes we ever played was a key. Have you heard this one? No. I had a personal assistant 25 years ago, beautiful Christian lady, and she got engaged. For her engagement party, all the guys, we to an ice hockey game in Nashville, and the announcement at the hockey game was a friend of mine. One of the guys in the office that was with us, it was about 10 guys, went all throughout the whole section and handed every guy a key. Went to the hardware store and got keys. The announcementer said, Cherie is getting married next week. Anyone that has a key to her apartment needs to bring it to her. Like, 500 guys got up and started bringing keys to It was such a wonderful practical joke. But yeah, that's much better than this one.

This just makes me sad.

Yeah, this is bad.

Can I tell you this one thing? One time, a friend of mine, they were having some family stuff, and it was a couple of friends of me and my wife's, and we've known them forever and ever. They were going through just somebody passed away or something, and I said, Hey, let's get them a house cleaner just to come in and clean up. And my wife looked at me and said, Are you crazy? I said, What do you mean? She said, You know what that would feel like to me if somebody came over to see us and then they hired someone to come clean my house?

It'd be like an insult. Insult.

And so I got to say, mom coming over to clean the house and do the laundry is a little bit of a flex. It's a little bit of a flex.

It's like cooking the lasagna.

It's the recipe you got for lasagna. You're not taking care of my little boy the way he deserves to be taken care of. I'll come over and help. It feels like Ray Romano's mom.

It's like your underwear was folded wrong.

I'm sorry, honey. I'll do it for you. Yeah. Husband, you can grow up.

Mother-in-law flex.

This whole thing makes me feel uncomfortable. I never feel uncomfortable. This one does.

This is like... It's got a little stalker-esque spirit in it. It does, man. She's got a key, and she sneaks in like Kibler's elves or something and cooks, and she does the laundry.

No, because this mother-in-law leaves a note that says, Hey, I noticed things were messy, so I cleaned up and I vacuumed. You all have a great night. It's just like a little…

It's a total flex.

But if you say anything, it's like, Oh, I was just trying to help. I'm so sorry. I won't help anymore. Yeah.

Mart her out. She'll definitely martyr her out.

The old, Okay, There's some old Derry Queen napkins in the glove box. I'll just eat those. You all just go eat wherever you want to. I'll just eat the old Kleenexes, and I'll just sit in the car and be cold. When you all get done, you all just come out.

It's that. Hey, I did run into a guy the other day that's opening a new food truck called wherever You Want to Go.

That's the genius.

Because when everybody asks where they want to eat, it's wherever you want to go. Where you want to go. Done. Okay, we're heading. We'll go. Right there.

There used to be a great little honky-tonk in Lubic, Texas, called the Library. We'd be like, Where are you going? I'm going to the library.

All I love it. I'm honky-tonk.

I love it.

All right, boys and girls, boundaries are necessary. I will admit that the hardest stage of parenting for me has been parenting children who are no longer in my control. It is the hardest stage to stay out of other people's business that are grownups, even if they are from my flesh and blood. That does not It doesn't matter. I don't have any major issues. It's not like any of them are doing anything extremely stupid or something. But still, just not telling grown up people what they have to do with your dad voice, it requires a little bit of discipline.

Even today, my son is studying for his first run of high school finals. He's a freshman. I know the science of studying. I know the pedagogy of studying. I've been a high school and a college teacher for That's how I did my whole career, and he's got to go through this first round of finals studying the way he rolls his eyes and says, Dad, I know. Okay. It's hard because I want to go in there and say, This is the way. He's got to learn this time. Then next time, we'll be able to speak from a place of… All right.

I need some help. Yeah. That's how to do this.

It's hard. It's hard when your precious little Johnny's underwear isn't folded right. Mother-in-law, it's Abigail's husband now.

Abigail. Back Back up.

Back up. Be cool. Be cool, man.

She has to stick her nose into everything.

It's the move stuff while we weren't home.

That one's weird. When it came back, the furniture is re-arranged.

It's like misery.

Yeah, it's what I was like. It's got a stalker-esque thing to it.

The Penguin always faces Nora.

This is the Ramsey Show.

Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens. One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing for their family, and then a curve all hits.

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Yeah, it's important to understand the difference between them. Life insurance steps in when you die. Disability insurance steps in while you're alive but can't work. So it replaces a large part of your income so the bills still get paid while you get back on your feet.

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Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality is my co-host today. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. This is The Ramsey The phone number is 888-825-5225. Thanks for hanging out with us. We appreciate you being here. If you want to help us out, we can use the help. We really can. Follow the show on the format or the platform that you're listening or watching. Click subscribe or click follow. It really helps our numbers big time because it causes the show to be pushed forward with their algorithms and other people who don't know about it, hear about it. It's the best promotion we get. Also, you share the show. A lot of these apps and platforms have a share button or share feature, and you can just send an episode to somebody and let them watch it or listen to it. I was listening to a podcast this week. A friend of mine was on Tucker Carlson I said, Hey, man, listen to this. I sent it to another friend of mine, just like that. Tucker's got a great podcast. It's going big. It's going Zoom, Zoom right now and so on.

I listened to one of Joe Rogan's. It was going Zoom, Zoom. It was really good. I sent it. Just share it. Anytime you read a good Jack Carr's got a new book out. The Terminal List, I read every one of his. I'm telling everybody, Go get the new one. It's good. It's very cool. Falcons brought me a copy of Jack's new book. Have you seen it?

I saw that he signed it.

And he shot it.

Oh, I didn't see that.

It's got a bullet hole in it. It's fabulous. If you don't know Jack, he was a former SEAL, and so these are all- That's a good friend. Navy seal books, and they're like shoot them up, spy movie type stuff, and they're great books. Fiction, obviously. It has a bullet hole in it. It's amazing. I may want to do that with my next book.

I think that would be fantastic.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the book, which his does, but I still want to do it anyway. Yeah, that's pretty cool. All right, Kathy's in Philadelphia. Hi, Kathy. Welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hello. I'm calling today with a question I hope you guys can help me with. My husband and I are considering putting in a solar array to offset our utility bill. I just wanted to bounce the numbers off of you and see if it was a smart move with where we're at currently. Hubs and I are between baby steps five and six, I guess. We have a substantial amount of money in savings, but we haven't earmarked that. Specifically, this is child A, this is child B, there's their college fund. They're pretty young yet, three and five. We feel like we've got some time to- So you would pay cash for the solar? That's what we want to do.

How much is it?

Pay for the solar. How much is it? The unit is about 53,000.

Okay. What's the break even on it?

They say they have it calculated out, and we looked at the numbers. About eight years, we'd have it all back between the ITC and our state credits for Pennsylvania and FREC and those things.

Okay, that's borderline. I usually look for a five to a seven year, break even. Most of the time that you see that you're going to get that, it's going to be in an area of the country that is a lot of sun. Phoenix Arizona type of a thing, that thing. It's a little different than Philly, not Seattle, that stuff. So you just think about what you got. I don't know the technical parts. What I do know from the financial side is I've been doing this for 35 five years. I've watched the solar panel efficiency as far as what's the break even, meaning what do you pay for it? How quickly can it convert the energy? How efficiently can it convert the energy? Thus, how fast it saves you money? I I've watched the technology on that. It's probably five or 10 times better than it was 30 years ago. It's really come a long, long way. It used to just be total crap. Now it's like, I actually endorse solar companies in a couple of cities that we have talk radio on, and I'm fine to do that as long. I don't endorse financing it, obviously.

But generally, I tell folks a five to a seven. Your eight is borderline What I might do is see if they're selling you some bells and whistles you could take off. They would get you down to the 40,000 range or so, and that might get you to a six or a seven-year break even. Maybe they got you with a convertible and power windows. I don't know, right? Right, right. Absolutely. But check that out, learn about that. That's what I would do if I were in this situation.

I'd run one more company, too. Have one more company come over and give a bid and see what they're saying. That's a good idea.

That's a good idea.

We ran two companies, and we actually have gotten from 75,000 down to 52,000, 53,000 by pitting them against each other. There you go. So we feel like that's about where… I mean, I could bring in a third company, but I feel like at this point, if we've come down, 25,000 That's a good start.

That's a good start. They got some margin in that crap. That's cool. I knew they were making bank, but I'm a fan of the technology. I'm not a fan of… You're not doing this, but for the rest of you out there that they really try to force a payment plan on you and go, Look, your payment is less than the amount you're going to save on your electric bill. No, that's dumb butt stuff because the things are attached to your house, and then you got a mess. You got a lien on your property. You got all kinds of mess. No, do not finance them Do not finance anything ever. You're listening to Dave freaking Ramsey. But you're not doing that. But that's for everybody else. The technology has come a long, long way. I will tell you this, Kathy, I think it's going to go a long way further. If you sell your house in seven years or eight years, probably what's attached to your house is crap. It'd be like you had a seven-year-old computer or a seven-year-old cell phone, how much further it's come along. That's the pace of change in the technology.

Don't think this is going to enhance the sale of your house. It's probably cluttering the sale of your house a decade from today. That's why I want you to get a quick break even on it, because it's just, what is a seven-year-old computer? A doorstop. That's what it is. It's like, what? It has to boot up?

It's like, where's the What is this strange Beach ball thing?

I even handed one of our audio guys an old iPod that I found and said, Hey, I want to pull the music off of it because I don't let my son have a phone out in the wild.

But I said, I want you to fill it with all country songs. He looked at me like I had just handed him a box of fresh dog turds. Antiques. He's like, What is this? I don't know what to do with this thing.

Fresh dog turds.

Yeah, I probably could have used a better analogy on your radio. Radio show, Dave.

Our radio show. You're here, too. Our radio show.

There we go. Thank you. But yeah, it was strange. But hey, he took it back and figured it out, man.

There you go. Well, because he's that guy. Alex is with us. Alex is in Tallahassee. Hi, Alex. How are you?

Good. How about yourself, Dave and John?

Good. How can we help?

Yeah. My wife and I have a little scenario. We currently have owned seven properties. One of them is my partner, a residential, and then six investments.

The Three of the investment properties are paid off.

We've been discussing about maybe selling two properties, and selling two properties would pay off the remaining of the balance that I have on the four other properties that still have a mortgage on them.

You'd be 100% debt free.

Included in my primary, yes, sir.

I would do that.

Right now?

Today?

Yes.

Yeah, today.

Okay. I love real estate, Alex, but I like being debt free more.

I agree. We were trying to hold on to the not-sell properties and just add more to the portfolio just for our children in the future.

But- You'll be able to do that because you won't have any payments.

I see.

How much you can stack cash with no payments to be able to buy the next one debt-free, and buy the next one debt-free, and buy the next one debt-free. That's what I started doing about 20 years ago. I've got quite a large amount of real estate now.

Can I ask one more quick question on the topic of real estate?

Yes, sir.

On the property, once they're all paid off, would you recommend I continue to keep the homeowners insurance?

Yes.

Because I'm in Florida, homeowners insurance is through the roof.

It's not homeowners, it's fire and EC. It's not technically homeowners. Homeowners is for owner-occupied only. But fire and EC. You got to run the analysis on it. I didn't think about you being in Florida. It's super expensive. You're right. Just run an analysis on it and go, How much of this pain am I willing to absorb? What happened if they all got wiped off the face of the Earth by a hurricane? What would you do? I wish you had insurance. Maybe. I don't know. I run a worst-case scenario through my emotional filters and see if I end up crying or not. This is The Ramsey Show. Finally, more Mortgage rates have dropped, and you know what that means? People who've been sitting on the sidelines are about to jump back in to the housing market. If you've been waiting to buy, this could be your window, but you've got to be prepared and do it the Ramsey way. You need to contact Churchill Mortgage. Their Home Buyer Edge program gives you peace of mind in a wild market. You can cap your rate for 90 days. So if rates go up, you're protected. If rates go down, Churchill will drop yours automatically.

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Dr. John Deloney-Rams. The personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Cori is with us in Washington, DC. Hi, Cori. How are you?

Hi, I'm well, thanks. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

I am trying to figure out how to get out of a stuck situation. I went through a divorce, which was a really terrible relationship, and jumped into my mother's home for the time being, which has been way too long now. In the process, I came in to her home with $55,000 in credit card debt and a car loan, which I've since paid off.

I've now paid off- You paid off all the credit card debt and the car, both?

Yes, all that's paid off.

Way to go. How long have you been there?

I have been here for six years. I paid that off and I've saved. I went back to school all in that time and got a decent job and now make three times the amount that I was- What are you making? When I first started my job. What are you making? Now, I make 118.

Why are you still there?

Because this market here, I started looking in 2020 for homes. I've been outbid several times by $40,000. How old are you? 45.

Okay. Why have you not gone and just rented something? You're debt-free and you make $120,000 a year. You can rent something.

Yeah. The rentals around here for a three bedroom, I have three kids and myself. For a three bedroom, it's about $3,000 a month. So at that point, I thought I was just throwing away money. My income has gone up each year pretty substantially. I keep feeling like I'm chasing the carrot. I get to a point where I could potentially make it work, and then the rents go up and the prices on the houses go up, and of course, the interest rates are up. I feel like I can never just get a grasp on something that I can actually move comfortably into. So now I'm trying to figure out, do I just put everything on hold as far as trying to buy a home?

No, the secret to happiness is lower expectations. You're trying to move into a neighborhood in an area that your income does not allow you to do. Understood. You probably won't be able to catch that carrot. I don't want you being 55 and living with your mother. I don't want your children to graduate from high school living with their grandmother.

Yeah, and that's the other thing. I have nothing saved up for them to go to school.

But the point is that you have painted yourself a world where you have decided You are guided that you are trapped by housing prices and rental prices.

Okay.

And you're not.

I get paid bi weekly, and I get paid about $2,600. Again, my income just went up in January. I was getting paid several hundred less per month last year and the year before. With that, what can I afford because I keep looking at all these other bills.

If I understood you right, you're debt free and you have how much saved?

It's close to 60.

And you make $118,000 a year and you have three children. Mm-hmm. Did I understand all of that right? Yes. And you did all of that in six years coming out of a broken, toxic, horrible marriage. I'm so proud of you.

And you got a degree. You're freaking amazing.

Well done. Thank you. Well done. You've really accomplished a lot here. The thing I think I'm hearing, and I might be wrong, Cori, but I think I'm hearing that probably in the marriage, and definitely with mom, the home that you're living in, or both nicer than the home that you can afford now, and you're having trouble with that?

Probably, yeah. I've definitely looked at lowering some of my living, what I'm used to.

The home that your mom is in now, did you grow up in that home?

No. Okay.

So the home you grew up in was not as nice as the home that you're currently staying in? No. And you're not damaged because of that?

Yeah. I mean, this house is okay. It's not like fantastic or anything like that.

Could you afford to buy it if it was on the market?

No. Okay. That's the point. Your childhood home, though, you might, and your children It will not be damaged if they move into a home that's not something off of the real estate channel on being redone by Chip and Joanna. I want you to get your toe in the water in some piece of real estate and establish sustainability of your own life, whether that's an inexpensive rental and you have a little bit too far of a commute, or it's not a stellar piece of property that lines up with all of your wants, but does cover your needs. But I think the reason you're chasing the carrot is you set the carrot pretty far out on the stick, and I'm going to pull the carrot back in and grab a hold of it and take a bite out of it.

I think it's probably both and. It's moved the carrot out and the housing market has gotten tough, especially in DC.

I'm not saying it's not tough, but I'm saying the way she can enter the market making $120,000 a year with a $60,000 down payment is probably not... Dc is super expensive. You're You're not going to be outside of DC. You're not buying a place. You're not buying a place in DC proper. You're not buying a place in LA or San Francisco. That used to be when you made $100,000 a year, you'd made it. But not anymore. And not with housing prices being what they are. You're in a market where your expectations based on your fabulous progress that you've made, I'm very proud of you, but it may mean that you go somewhere else.

Dave, this is a thing that I want to be emphatic about. There's going to be things you want to give your kids. Like she even mentioned, I don't even have any college savings. I don't have this. I don't have this. Your kids can share a room. Your kids can put themselves through college. Your kids can do so much. What her kids have that I don't think she has recognized yet is they have a mom- Who's a warrior. Who is extraordinary. Yes. The greatest gift my parents gave was not college. They didn't have the money to pay for college. It wasn't a car. It wasn't any of those things. It was I had two parents that always scratched and clawed, and both of them had midlife career changes, and I watched them flourish. Lo and behold, This opportunity came up when I had a career and I had the courage to go do something else, and I had the work ethic and all the stuff. That's what she's giving her kids, and it's not something you can buy, it's something you witness. Go get a townhome if that's all you can afford, and two of your kids can share rooms, and they're going to be fine because they've got an incredible mom who loves them, and they're watching you blaze a path.

That's the greatest gift you can give your kids. It just is. All the other stuff is gravy.

The number of people that shared a bedroom with a sibling that ended up in counseling because of that alone is zero.

There's a lot of kids. I'm telling you right now, I just had this conversation this weekend in Utah with the behavior services team. There's a lot of people in counseling because they have never shared a room. They've never had to negotiate anything other than whatever they want whenever they want it, and then they go to college, or then they get married, and their whole universe explodes because somebody else has a different opinion about something.

Because somebody said, Oh, the access to the world does not run through the top of your little head. Who knew?

I've talked to every I've never had a residence hall director on planet Earth that I've ever met, and I've always asked them just privately, shared rooms or single rooms. I've never had one say the right thing to do. Developmentally for a college kid is to share a room. I can't sell it anymore because these kids are coming in their own bedrooms, their own bathrooms, and their own Whirlpool tub, so I have to make these single ones. But if I was a king for a day-You mean there's not a skylight? Everybody has to share a room. Can we get the sushi delivered to our dorm room? No. Yes. Kids can share rooms. They're so resilient, especially when you have a mom like that. So move outside of town.

You've given them a gift, Cory.

They could change schools. It's okay.

You've given them a gift by stepping out of a horrible situation and then standing knee deep in that manure and flourishing. It's amazing. And using that as fertilizer and have grown and grown and grown and grown. I'm so proud of you. You're an amazing lady. I think your real estate is just... I think your problem is unrealistic expectations with your numbers. So that's going to mean that you change probably the neighborhood you've been looking in, whether it be for buying or for renting. It may be a long commute, it may mean a complete move, it may mean a complete move. It may mean a lot of other things. And that's not to I think that Washington, DC, real estate is cheap. It's quite the opposite. It's basically crazy. This is the Ramsey Show.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Dr. John Deloney. Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author and host of the Dr. John Deloney Show on the Ramsey Networks. He's my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Daniel's in New York City. Hi, Daniel. How are you?

Hi, Mr. Ramsey. A big fan of the show. Me and my girlfriend, we're both young. We'd I'd like to start dating and move it. Well, sorry. We have been dating for four years, and we'd like to move in together and potentially we'd like to get married. I was just curious on what you thought for.

The data is not in your favor.

Yeah, I'm aware. I've heard you guys read off the statistics before.

I'm actually doing some research for a new marriage project, and they actually have the cohabitation data longitudinally just for earned income. Something as simple as household income over time is less than those who are married. Not to mention the statistics around the relationship not making it over time. How long have you all been dating?

Four years.

Four years? Why not just pull the trigger? What are you waiting on?

I would like to do it. My parents are advising against it, and they're saying that we should live together for six months to a year prior. I I would like to do it. It's just that I'm also heeding their advices. How old are you? My parents. I'm 25, 26 in a month.

Okay. If you're a guy who's going to listen to their parents, even if you disagree with them, why are you calling two strangers on a podcast?

I was just curious what your guys's opinions was.

You already knew.

Yeah, you already knew what we were going to say. I started rattling off the date and you're like, Yeah, I already knew that.

Right. We both think we're very financially sound. We've saved up a bunch of money, so I'm just curious if that changes anything or no.

No. How old were you when you got married?

Me? Yeah. 24.

Okay. I was 22.

Yeah.

I've been married 43 years.

I'm 23 and a half.

Listen, I think you can respect your parents and still disagree with them.

I do all the time. I love my parents to death.

They're good people. I respect John, and I disagree with him sometimes. Yeah.

We disagree all the time. Not really. I'm usually right. Not really.

That's even hard. Not really.

Let me take this. Yes, sir. Are you calling us because you actually want to marry this girl?

Yes, sir.

Okay. At some point, you're going to have to say, as for me and my household.

Your mom and dad no longer get to tell you what to do when you're a man, my son. They can only advise you.

Right.

So my next question would be- And neither do podcasters get to tell you what to do. You still have to do what you want to do.

Yes, sir. Understood. So we've got about $6,000 saved up. I understand that you guys advise one month of income for engagement ring or rings. In our area for New York City and Long Island, it's really expensive for rent. We've traveled to a few cities. We Other than, we figure you guys recommend a quarter of your income for living expenses. Can we permit up to 35% where we are? We're both in the hospitality entry-level positions. We graduated together with Associates degrees.

Okay. Well, that's a completely different set of questions separate from what you called about, right? Yes, sir. Okay. All right. So yes, one month of your income is the maximum you should spend on a ring. And yes, one-fourth of your take home pay is the most you need to put into rent, not for household expenses, but into rent because you don't create a sustainable situation. You're short on money, you're house poor when your rent is 35 or 40 or 50% regardless of where you live. If your income is going to be going up like doubling in the next year and a half or two years, and you take on a little bit higher rent, then that doesn't kill you. But if you try to sit there and prosper for four years where your rent is 35% of your take home, you got a bad formula. You're going to struggle with that one.

Oh, but they're in New York, so all rents can be free from now on. They're going to be good. Too soon?

Plus or minus the rats. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm not talking about the rodents. Okay. I don't know. No, Daniel. The math still has to math, even in New York. You've got to decide what you guys are going to do. It may be if you're going to be in the hospitality business, if you can't move up quickly enough with your associate's degrees into sustainable incomes in a market that's that expensive, then you may need to be doing it somewhere else. That's a possibility, too. Lots of people leave areas they can't afford to live in. That's been since time began, people have done that until they can afford to do it. And New York City being one of the more expensive cities in the world to live in. So literally, New York, Tokyo, London, San Francisco. I mean, this is the list, right? Paris. These are very uber-expensive to live in, not just because they're recognizable major metro areas, but just stinking expensive, period. And so try renting a flat in London. That'll get your attention. Scott's in Montana. Let's go the other direction. What's up, Scott? Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my call.

Sure. My wife and I, we are almost done with Baby Seb 2. I'm 49 years old. I was approached today at work to purchase a long-term care policy.

It's a-Nursing home care.

Yeah, it says if you become chronically ill, lifetime benefit term will pay you 4%.

You don't need it.

That's what I was wondering. I was a little hesitant on that. What's the main- The main deal is this.

Long-term care insurance is vital when you're 60 years old and above. The percentage likelihood of you using it prior to '60 is very close to zero. We don't recommend buying it until you're '60. If you're '60 and you got $10 million, don't buy it. Just self-insure. Just pay for the nursing or pay for in-home care or whatever you're going to do. But if you got 500 grand to your name and you're 60 years old, the nursing home is going to be 300 grand over three years. It's going to crack and scramble the nest egg. Typically, the guy dies before the lady 75% of the time. And so papa goes in the nursing home, uses up all the money, and then dies, leaves mama broke. That's the one 60 years old that needs long term care insurance. You don't need it at 40. 49. 49. You don't need it until you're 60. I'm 65. I got plenty of money. I didn't buy it.

That's where I was a little hesitant.

I have a life insurance policy, a term life that's done, I guess, until I'm...

Yeah, it's at 75, it ends. I also have insurance through the military. Should I be purchasing any other type of life insurance?

Life insurance, you need about 10 to 12 times your income on you to cover your family if you die, and that's taking care of your wife and kids. When you're 75, the kids, hopefully, will be grown and gone. They'll be grown, hopefully, they'll be gone. That's the game plan. You'll be out of debt and have some money. With some financial planning, you outlive the need for life insurance long term. But for right now, yeah, you do need some life insurance. Buying and selling a home is a big deal, and you want an expert in your corner fighting for you to get the right deal at the right price. That's why we only recommend Ramsey Trusted Real Estate Agents. They're handpicked pros who know their stuff, listen to your needs, and have your back from the first call all the way to closing day. To find a Ramsey Trusted agent near you, visit ramseysolutions. Com/agent. The Agent. Many years ago, we came up with this great idea. There were these new things on your phones called an app, an application. So we decided that Ramsey should have an app that would do your budget. And we worked and we worked and we worked and we worked on it, and we developed, really, over the last decade or so, the world's best budgeting app, without a doubt.

It's called EveryDollar, because every dollar has an assignment by you. You assign every one of your dollars a place to go, give it a name. What has ended up happening then is that over the last three or four years, we've invested a bazillion dollars in programming and in brilliant digital minds inside this building that do things I can't even spell and have managed to integrate into it the whole Ramsey plan, the Ramsey way. Like you guys call in and ask us detailed nuanced questions about what you do with this baby step? Or what do I do there? What do I do there? We've actually got almost all of that now answered inside of EveryDollars. The all new EveryDollars, we just relaunched it the other day. It's a complete game changer. You can watch the premiere on our YouTube channel and see it how it works in action. What happens is when you go in, if you've been there before, do it again. If you've never been, go now and get Get into the Every Dollar app, because what happens in just the first 15 minutes or so, you're going to find thousands of dollars of margin, and then we're going to start showing you how to apply it using the Baby Steps framework and the Ramsey Way, so to speak.

The Ramsey Way, basically, is we're going to take you from debt into wealth and generosity. Change your whole family tree. We want you to get there. And so imagine how much you could find to put towards your money goals. The All New Every Dollar. It's here. Check it out. Jake is with us in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Jake. How are you? Good, guys. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. How can I help?

Me and my wife were 24, fresh out of college a few years ago, so we decided to build a home, our forever home. And the cost got out of control. Our parents stepped in, my parents stepped in. Me and my wife have been blessed to have our parents by our side. They actually followed your financial piece back in There's a different story behind that, but they've accumulated some wealth over the years. They've handed us over a lump sum of money to help us build this house, and whatever's left over, we will pay back in a mortgage payment to them. Me and my wife make about $130,000 a year before taxes with a commission bonus for myself at the end of the year. So my question is, and we do have a good amount of savings from the past years of working, about $120,000 $120,000 in savings.

Okay, I'm sorry. If you have $120,000 in savings, why the flip did your parents have to give you money?

They have been working so hard their whole life to set their kids up, and so they want to help every single one of their kids out. I'm one of three brothers.

Yeah, but you may sound like you got in trouble and they bailed you out.

Oh, no, sir. No.

What happened with the house? You bought too much house? What's the deal with the house?

Yeah, so we're building- Oh, you're still building? Yeah, we're still building. We're in the foundation phase right now.

Oh, you just started building?

Yes. The deal was with them was we can collaborate with them. They can help out. We have a really good relationship with our parents. I work for them, actually. This is what they wanted to do for us, and so we kindly accepted it. And any cost after their initial lump sum that they handed over, we would pay back to them in a mortgage. I guess my question is, me and my wife are still young. We're 24. We're not thinking my right now. Do we give up a lot of that savings that we have straight back to them at the beginning, or do we have some of that, keep most of it and travel and have fun in our early 20s?

So do I borrow money from my parents when I'm newly married to travel? That's in essence where this lands. When I say it that way, does it sound as crazy to you as it does to me?

Yeah, a little bit.

Okay. No. No. You did grown up stuff and went and bought a house at 24 years old, pay for your stinking house, and then start talking about traveling.

Do you have a good relationship with your parents?

Very good.

The surest way- Both my in-law's and The surest way to blow it up is to have money in between you. Okay. I know that's a weird, hard thing to say at 24, especially when you got two people who are like, No, it's no big deal. Just take it from two older guys. Clear the money between your relationship so that it can as good as it is right now.

I think I heard a two-stage deal here. They gave you a gift of a certain amount, and that even wasn't enough. And so then they loaned you more. Is that right?

Yes. They loaned us the full amount of whatever cost for the house we're paying for in cash to build. So they're not taking loan out from any… They've been completely debt-free since 2008.

I know, but you now owe them a mortgage payment? Yeah. Okay, so that part where they went through financial peace university, they flunk the class because we tell you not to do that, ever. Don't ever loan your children money. Oh, my God.

Because it puts a wedge between the relationship.

The borrower is slave to the lender. Now you have to eat dinner. Hey, eat Thanksgiving dinner with your master. Yeah. Okay. That's going to be painful for your wife. Not going to bother you much because it's your parents, but it's going to be painful for your wife.

Understood.

How much money do you owe your parents that you have to pay the mortgage on?

Probably going to be around 200,000 to 250,000.

Okay. How much of a gift did they give you?

About 50% of the total cost of build, so about 200,000 to 250,000.

So you're 24 years old, you make 130, and you got a $450,000 house?

Yes. Yeah.

Dang, Gina. Okay. It's a lot of house, dude. It's a lot of house.

All right. Well, for sure, the answer to your question is, no, you don't need to go on vacation. Yes, you need to take the $130,000, but I'm even going to go a step further. I'm going to put the $130,000 with your mom and dad to limit the size of the mortgage, and then I'm going to go get a commercial mortgage, not from your parents. Okay. Because I don't want this mortgage. I don't want you paying payments to your parents for any amount of money, for any amount of interest. I don't think you're going to do that because I think you guys have worked out this detailed thing in all of heads that this all works out to the point that you're ready to go to Europe instead of paying back.

Here's what I would say. I can see myself working really hard so that I can bulldoze a path for my son and his new wife. I get that. But if my son was to hand me a check for 130 grand and say, Dad, I've got this money saved up. This is the part of the mortgage. Then I want you to see here, I'm giving you the rest of it. I took out a commercial loan because I I don't want to just stay your son. I don't want to stay one of your... I don't want you to be my banker. I would be so proud. In a way, you're not showing him up, but you're saying, I'm taking the reins here. It would show a level of wisdom and maturity. I'm trying to give him as much grace as I can, dad, because the arrangement he's put you in is madness. It just ends in somebody wanting you to do something for Christmas, and your wife doesn't want to, and it's like, Well, after all, it's just a recipe for disaster. But, man, if you went and did what Dave just said, go get a commercial loan for the rest of it.

By the way, that's a tiny mortgage.

It's a $120,000 mortgage.

It's a tiny, tiny, tiny mortgage. Just go do that, man. You'll have that paid off in no time with as much money as you all make.

If you don't go on trips.

Yeah, if you don't go to Europe. And by the way, I don't know, Dave, trips are more fun when I'm older now. I don't know why. They just are.

Well, they're more fun because they don't follow you home. But in essence, That's what this ends up being.

I don't have to have Sunday lunch with my bank.

We're going to increase the amount we borrow from mom and dad by the amount that we spend on the trips. So it's like borrowing from mom and dad to go on a trip, and obviously, that would be ludicrous. Moms and dads, those of you that graduated from Financial Peace University with a better grade than that mom and dad got, which was an F, here's the rule, okay? If you want to give your children some money and they pay cash for a house, and part of the bargain is they never borrow money again because you want your family tree to be completely changed. Great. Never make your child, your grown child, your slave. You change your relationship with your daughter-in-law, your son-in-law. You change the relationship in how you interact with each other. It's just you're adding layers to it that you were unintended, but they're very real. And no one is the exception. Even a nice master as a master.

Hey, do you ever feel like you're doing everything right with money but still stuck? I was you, in debt, running hard, but taking three steps forward and two steps back. Turns out it's not the numbers. It's the fact that changing our ways with money is emotional. That's why I wrote my brand new book, What No One Tells You About Money, to help you push past what's really been sabotaging your progress so you can finally win. You can pre-order now and score over $100 in free bonus items, but only if you order by January fifth, go to ramsey solutions. Com/store today.

Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality is This is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage. Dima and Rhonda are with us. Hey, guys. How are you?

Hey, Dave. How are you?

Better than I deserve. Where do you two live?

We live in Durham, North Carolina.

Oh, I love Durham. Great town. Welcome to Nashville. Good to have you guys. How much debt have you two paid off? We paid off $266,192. How long did this take?

Oh, my God.

Four years and eight months. Golly. All right. And your range of income during that time? Our starting salary was $138,000, and our ending salary was 284,500. Look at you two. What do you all do? What do you do for a living?

Well, I'm actually in compensation. I work for a medical tech company, so I'm in the compensation role.

Okay.

I don't even know what that means. That must pay really well.

Hey, I think that's why I get paid the big bucks. For real?

I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor.

You ain't making $280,000. I'm also a professor as well. Okay, there you go.

Very good. Good. Good for you guys.

That's awesome, guys. Thank you.

Want to go. What debt was the 266? It was a car loan, credit card.

And Dimas grad school. And student loans. I'm telling you right now, I know that.

Absolutely student loans.

My student loans were 150,000, and Rhonda's were 100,000.

About 100, yeah.

That's undergraduate, graduate, and doctorate.

For me, I went out of state, Dave, and a private institution. Then I went on and got a master's after that. Why not? Talk about following it on.

Hiling it on. How long have you two been married?

This year, we're celebrating 10 years.

Halfway through, five years ago, something happened. What happened? What set you off on this?

He decided to go get that last degree. We were already, if you want to think about it, we were 800 and something in student loans, just me, with Dima's student loans being in forbearence. We're like, What are we going do when your loans come out and we have to start paying? Mind you, we had just had a little one in 2017, and Dima started school. We're like, We cannot take on my loans, daycare, and then when Dima gets his student loans. We were scared. What's that going to look like?

It just kept stacking up until it got scary.

Yeah, it got really scary.

Then what happened? What did you do?

We're graduates of the Financial Police University, so I think we were just paking it baby steps, baby steps. But when we realized what we're going to be under with all the students, we were just like, We've got to use the principles and really get serious and intentional.

Time to get hardcore.

Yeah, absolutely. All right.

You lean in. What was the first thing you did and what was the radical stuff you did?

We started doing the monthly, monthly meetings talking about our finances. Hard conversations. Hard conversations. Credit cards, of course, we put them in a jar in the kitchen, and we're paying with cash. If it wasn't on our monthly things that we had talked about, then we weren't doing it. What would you say?

Who's the spender?

I could see it, man. I was hoping you would ask that.

Oh, my God, Dave. He's so cute.

Well, your shoes are shot from here. Your watch is blinding me.

Let me say this. For his birthday, he was like, Oh, let's go. Let's get this car. Let's test drive it. On his birthday, we ended up walking away with a car. I would say, Dave, after we got intentional, that car, we sold it, and we were upside down. We're like, But we can't. We made sure that anything else we had, we were paying cash for as far as cars. That was really the testament that he was able to say, Hey, I love the car, but I want us to get us out of debt, and sold a car.

Being debt-free was more important. Absolutely.

You all have made an incredible combined salary together. Both of you all are rolling up to places where people are seeing you all drive up, and you all are driving a quarter million dollar No, we still own.

I have a 2010 Mazda. Yeah.

It runs great.

It runs great. It runs great. Going to your mysterious compensation job.

Yes, absolutely. We're like, Hey, we can't get rid of this. We're We're not talking about gas prices and things like that. But it's making us more intentional and saying, Now that we've paid off debt, what else can we do?

Definitely humbling ourselves and having faith in the process was a struggle. But I'd definitely say be persistent and resilient. Absolutely.

Because you know what, Dave? We're all taught to pay off debt, but then it's like, What do you do after you pay off debt? We're loving these conversations because we've just been so used to paying off our student loans and paying off- Now, four years.

I mean, that's a habit pattern right there. Right.

Absolutely.

Four years of doing nothing.

Yeah, basically. But you know what? One of our happy experiences when we challenged ourselves to say, what are we going to do? I remember our birthday, we had $100. So what were we going to do with that? We went and we did a day trip to the beach, and that's been the It was the most memorable trip. It was like, we packed sandwiches. Everything was free, and we're like, wow. I'm like, I'm still talking about that birthday. It's like, be humble and you'll be surprised. I think even Dima made me a birthday cake. It was box, but you know. It was good, and it was humbling to us.

There you go. Dima, can I tell you, being a professor, being a mental health practitioner, I've always wondered if you want to do this I'll put it on the air for you. I always wondered, if you're somebody in the helping profession, if you're a professor, how much do you have to curb what the research says? How much do you have to curb what you actually believe is the right thing to say? Because you're not really supposed to say that, and I owe somebody money. Now, the students that you're going to be teaching, they're going to get unfiltered you because nobody's telling you what to do anymore.

No knife over your head.

You're going to be able to sit there and tell these These clients are yours. Here's the truth, because I don't know anybody about anything, man. I could speak from here now. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that was one of the motivators in wanting to be debt-free, just the freedom, if you will. Like you mentioned, Dr. John, that freedom that you have to… You have that discretionary income, if you will. We're still working through the baby steps, but you have more freedom, and there's no loans or things of that nature that you have That's awesome.

I'm proud of you guys.

Well done. Thank you. We're proud of you. Excellent. Way to go, heroes. Thank you. Thank you. How does it feel?

Dr. Dron, you said it. To not owe anybody anything. We're like, What can we do now? It's really challenging us to say, What do we want to do with our careers? How do we give back? It's making you just want to just pour out all of that knowledge. We're just ready and fired up about it.

It's refreshing. Our budget meetings are… It's a different vibe.

We can just smile at you.

We can't thank you two in the moment.

Oh, my God.

Ramsey crew. Yeah, thank you all. Way to go, you all. We're proud of you. Thank you.

This is one of the rare couples that they both married well. You all both did all right. Thank you. Me and Dave, we went out in our marriages, but you all both did real well. That's awesome.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

That's great. Very well done, you two. Very well done. All right, it's Dima and Rhonda from Durham, North Carolina. $266,000 paid off in four years and eight months, making 138 to 284. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt-free. Yeah, let's go. I love it. Well done. Very well done. Yeah, I guess the number of things you can do when you have that liberty is changed dramatically, but it's particularly, I never thought of it in a university setting. That's very interesting that you don't have this 266 breathing down your neck, so you can just go, Here's the truth.

Well, and you said at the table, and this is how we're going to teach this, or this is how we're saying this, or If you have this belief, you're stupid. If you owe a whole bunch of money, you got to put your head down and go to the next thing.

Got to bite your tongue. Got to bite your tongue.

Now, DMA has been unleashed. It's going to be fun to see it happen, man.

Way to go, heroes. This is the Ramsey Show.

Listen up, guys, because I've got a big question for you. Where will you be with your money at the end of 2026? Will you be better off, worse, or exactly the same? Believe it or not, you get to choose. Look, I know there's a lot going on that can make you feel powerless over your money, but I want you to hear me. You're more in control than you think. You can turn your finances around. So let me help you out. Start your year off with me and Dave Ramsey at our free Every Dollar Livestream event on January eighth. We're cutting through all the lies and all the chaos out there that's keeping you stuck. So you have the clarity you need to finally get ahead. And you could even win $2,000 just for signing up. Listen, another year is going to pass anyway. So decide that this is the year you're going to take back control of your life and your money. Go sign up for the free livestream at everydollars. Com/livestream.

Our scripture today, 2 Corinthians 1: 4, Where he comforts us all in our troubles so we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us. Jordan Peterson says, Face the demands of life voluntarily. Respond to a challenge instead of bracing for a catastrophe. Amberly is with us in Concord, New Hampshire. Hey, Amberly, how are you?

I'm good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, I My husband and I have made a series of really bad financial mistakes, and we were just wondering if we should sell our house this year or next year.

What mistakes?

Well, we were house poor. We bought a duplex that… It's overwhelming. We pay about three grand a month We only make about 60 grand gross a year.

Why would you wait a year? You're drowning.

I know. We are.

What is it you're waiting on?

Well, I'm the main person who does the budget. For some reason, it seems like we make We do somewhat make a little bit more money by staying here, but I feel like it's wrong. I feel like it would be better if we can move.

I'm confused. It feels like you make more money. Math is not a feeling. Do you make more money or not?

Well, we make 60 grand growth, and then we also get 2,500 a month from the other side. It I don't know. I know we probably should.

We're a bit- Do you not like being a landlord, Emberley?

No.

Okay.

I don't.

That's solid.

Yeah. Be honest about the problem. I can hear this. This thing's a brick around your neck. Yeah. Your sanity is not worth it.

It is.

Yeah.

It's a stupid house. It is. We found out that our tenant has been running the water 24/7. Sorry, I'm just a little overwhelming being on the air. Sorry.

It's okay. You're good. We've never lost a patient. You're okay.

Yeah. I want to. We're in this market where I know that we could technically... This house would appreciate, but- It doesn't matter.

I do want to get rid of it. It doesn't matter. It's not fun. No. Everything in this This conversation says you're not having fun. No. This house has not been a blessing. It's been a curse.

Yeah.

Tiktok told you that the way to wealth is to buy a duplex, rent the other side, they'll pay your mortgage, and you're going to Now it's not fun.

Now it's not fun. You found out TikTok was wrong. Oh, there's a shock.

Yeah. Should we put it on the market next month?

By Friday.

Yeah, Friday. Friday. Friday sounds good.

Okay. I'm not kidding.

Okay.

I'm not kidding. If I have something I own that I hate as bad as you hate this, even if I made a mistake and I'm ashamed to admit the mistake, I'm still going to admit the mistake. I want to kill it as soon as I can kill it. I want it in my rear view mirror as a distant memory of dumb things I've done. Otherwise, every time you drive up the driveway, you're going, I don't feel really good about me.

Yeah.

You can't be the wife you want to be. You can't be the mom you want to be. You can't be the employee you want to be. It affects every squirrance of your life.

You're not having fun. We can hear it. It's not just you're scared to be on the air. It's your whole situation, right? Yeah. If you had a house payment you could afford, you could breathe again. You're having trouble getting a full lung full of air right now.

Yeah. It's overwhelming. I'm scared.

Yeah, we can hear it. It's not being mean to you. I've been exactly where you are. That's how I can identify it. I smell it. I know what it feels like. The thing is that the faster you act on this, the quicker you're going to get peace. Yeah. Peace is really our goal here. You got plenty of time to buy a different house, plenty of time to make different real estate decisions, sell this thing, and go rent an apartment or something for six months and breathe a little bit, and then slow down and make a better real estate decision the next time you move into real estate. You can do this. Okay. Go to ramsey solutions. Com and click on real estate ELPs for Ramsey trusted real estate agents, people we trust that we have vetted, and they'll help you get the thing on the market and help you get it sold ASAP. That's what I would do if I were in your shoes. I like real estate, but I hate real estate. Isn't that interesting? Because I see what it does to people when you do it wrong, including me. It leaves a mark.

It's not fun. Alejandro is with us in Miami. What's up, Alejandro?

Excuse me, sorry, I just drink water. No troubles. Yes. My question is, is it worth it to go to college? Now, the reason why I'm asking that is because I have my brother. He's basically studying in US, and he's been going to college for basically eight years now because he's getting his doctor's. Now, he's a straight A student and everything. My worrisome is that his depth is five digits. No, yeah, it's five digits, basically. So he's going from Let's say from 9,000 to 60,000. The amount of debt that he's getting is ridiculous, right?

Are we asking about you or him?

This is more for him than it is for myself.

Well, he's already made his decision.

Right. But what I wanted to know is that from what I see in the market overall, I see employers basically asking more than what they could give off. As in a story that he was telling me is that, Oh, hey, there's a position that they like his degree, but they're only offering 70,000 instead of the range that the college promised them. That's like, what is that?

What is his degree going to be in to continue the discussion?

Sports medicine. Okay.

He's going to end up how much in debt to do sports medicine?

Sixty, 60,000.

Okay. This is a four Career degree?

It's becoming eight. He did four, then he got his master's like two years ago.

So he's getting a PhD in sports medicine?

Yes.

Well, that's not necessary. Okay, in that field. But the problem is you cannot extrapolate that to, is it okay to go to college? Because yes, it's okay to go to college. College is worth the expense if you pay cash and study something that's actually usable in the marketplace. The problem was your brother overdebt it. He got two more degrees than he needed to function in that space.

Or at least one more that he could afford. If he wants to move up, then he gets his master's degree.

You do not need a PhD in sports medicine to function in the sports medicine space.

Unless, maybe if you're going to go work for an NFL team or something, they may want you to have a doctor by your name, but who knows? I don't even know the particulars of that. But the college is going to give you a range, and when they give you a salary range, those things are skewed by if they're taking numbers from San Francisco and New York to Nebraska. It's all over the place. So don't blame the college. He's got to do his own research and say, What does it pay in the area that I want to live?

I wouldn't go to school eight years for a $70,000 job. I agree with you, Alejandro. That's not worth it. Absolutely not. You can get lots of $70,000 jobs for four-year degrees and lots of $100,000 jobs going to trade school and being a welder. If you're just looking at return on investment, the trades are awesome. There's a gap right now in the marketplace, and they pay beautifully. But to say college is completely never worth it is an incorrect, not a factual statement. That's not true either. That's not a factual statement. Getting a in stupidity, left-handed puppetry or German polka history, and then thinking you're going to end up with being anything but a barista is ridiculous. That's dumb. But you can't take somebody doing something stupid like that and saying all higher Ed is bad. That's just not true.

No. The data is... My kid's going to go to college.

Yeah, mine too. Mine did. Yeah, there you go. That puts us hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.