Transcript of Money Turns Family Drama Into Financial Disaster

This episode is filled with some of our best calls and advice. But unless you take what you hear and put it to work in your own life, you'll be stuck with the same money stress in 2026. So make a change and download EveryDollar today. Normal is broken, common sense is weird. So we're here to help you with your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, this is The Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your This is Ken Coleman, number one best-selling author, Ramsey personality and host of Front Row Seat, one of our more popular Ramsey Network shows. He's my co-host today. Open phones here at 888-825-5225. Jack Jack is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Hi, Jack. How are you?

Doing well. Thank you, Dave and Ken. Thanks for taking the call.

Sure. What's up?

Yeah. Basically, my grandfather had passed away about five years ago, and he had left a trust to his three children. Basically, the way it had been set up is that after my father had passed away, I would receive a lump sum. Each sibling got a lump sum payment from that trust. However, for my dad, He has historically been bad with money, and it was set up for him that he would receive payments annually in the trust. Then once he passes away, I would receive the lump sum. After this, he is basically saying that he wants to have me sign a document that releases the trust to him, and he plans to spend the money. He's threatening me by bribing me with $5,000 upfront Five thousand dollars?

How much is in the trust?

From what I understand, whenever my grandfather was still around, I believe his portion is between $250,000 and $300,000.

So he's asking you to trade $300,000 for $5,000?

From what it seems, he has said that he wants to take that lump sum and he wants to renovate his house because he is 63 years old. He works as a lawyer, and he wants to renovate his house. He wants to buy a new car, and he claims that I will have the rest of the money. However, with his historic run of dealing with finances, I don't believe that there will be any money left.

Hey, Jack, quick question. You've used two words with us. You said threatened and bribe. What does that actually look like? I haven't heard any evidence of that.

I would say it's definitely more so bribing. Him just throwing out one time, the first time he said, I'll get you $10,000 Then the second time we had talked about it, he said that he would give me $5,000 upfront.

Okay, so what- I'm sorry. It's just the math is not mathing. He's so illogical that he actually believes you would trade 5,000 for 250? That's just bizarre to me. I totally agree. What planet does he live on that he thinks you would do that?

I don't know.

I don't either. Okay, so you're using words like bullied and bribed with your own father, irresponsible about your own father. Your grandfather thought he was irresponsible. So you're not going to do this. You had already decided that before you called, right?

Yes.

Okay. So how could we help you?

However, yes. I really just want to know how to navigate that conversation with my father because I know that he needs to- You want to know something that's impossible.

It's impossible for you to take a man that is this unreasonable and make him reasonable with one conversation. That's not possible. This unreasonable man is going to have an unreasonable reaction to your reasonable no. There's no way you can frame a no that this guy is going to like it, and he's going to go, Oh, thank you, son. I just love you so much. I'm so proud of you. That's what you wish would happen. There's no conversation that does that. Because of what you're dealing with on the other side of this, it's like petting a crocodile and going, Nice crocodile, nice crocodile, and hoping you don't get your arm bit off. Of course, you're going to get your arm bit off. It's a crocodile. That's what we're dealing with. I wish I could make you have a good dad, but you don't. What I can do is just give you the realistic expectation, which is you preserve your dignity, your courage, your kindness, your integrity. That's the only thing you have control over. You don't have control over his reaction. So you gently and kindly say, Dad, grandpa put this in place, and I'm just going to abide by grandpa's wishes.

Thanks for asking. I'm sorry it It doesn't work for me, and we're just going to leave the thing set up like it is. But thanks for asking. I hope you could find another way to get your house renovated and get you a car since you're a lawyer and all. I'll be cheering for you because I love you. He's still going to go bonkers, isn't he?

Yes. Yeah.

So 100% be expecting that. Anything less than bonkers, we'll call it gravy on the biscuit. We'll call it a bonus. But I'm counting on bonkers.

Jack, I don't know if you've ever had surgery before, but I would say that your mindset here has got to be the same as going into surgery that you have to have. It's not fun, it's going to hurt, it's going to be some recovery time, but it absolutely has to happen. On the other side of the surgery, you're going to be better off.

And there can be healing.

That's right. I think you have to go into this going, there's just no way. I think Dave framed it beautifully. But as a response to what Dave said, you've got to understand this is one of the situations in life that was forced on you. You cannot control your dad or the situation he's put you in, but you got to do what's best for you. That's the mindset. There's no way this is not going to suck. But on the other side, you're going to be better.

Anytime you're setting a boundary with a boundaryless person, less is more. This is a very short, concise conversation. We're not going into a bunch of explanation or discussion of his character or the history of the family tree. We're not going to try to explain this to him. We're not going to go into a bunch of It's a simple thing. Dad, I love you, and I've thought about this, and I think I'm just going to stick with grandpa's plan, and that's what we're going to do. I hope it works out for you, and I'll be cheering for you. Thank you. That's what 10 seconds maybe of audio, and that's all you need. The longer you talk, the more you're going to mess this up. I use that when over 35 years now of running a business, in the rare occasion that we actually have to let someone leave this place, we don't have long discussions. We've had long discussions up to that point, trying to get them better. But the day they leave, it's like the decision has been made, today is your last day. That's it. We don't go into why because why has been discussed in the 90 days previous.

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Seattle is on the line. Jeremy is calling. Hi, Jeremy. How are you?

Good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Good. Hey, I just started your book this last month with my wife. We are on Baby Step number 2. Long story short, we basically borrowed some money from a family member, my father-in-law and mother-in-law, about a year and a half ago. We put a manufactured home there, used the money for that. We're paying them back pretty quickly, it feels like. Made a dumb decision, again, before I started your book and went out and bought a toy. It's putting some stress on our relationship with them. They're thinking we shouldn't be spending money when we owe them money. I just wanted your advice on that.

What'd you buy?

A four-wheeler. Okay.

What'd you spend on the four-wheeler?

6,000. We financed it, but it's almost paid off now.

Okay. What do you owe them?

About 80,000.

So they loaned you the money to buy a- A house.

Put a house.

A trailer? Yeah. Yes, sir. On their property?

Yes, sir.

So you have an $80,000 trailer and you don't own the dirt?

Correct.

Oh, God. Okay. Wow. Well, what are the terms? I mean, did you have a payment system with them, a certain amount you're supposed to pay them every month?

Yes. Yeah, and we've been paying that on time Every time, obviously.

Well, not obviously. I mean, you've never been late, and yet they expected that you would prepay them rather than do anything else. Why did they expect that?

I guess so. You know that's a good question.

Okay.

Our thing is we have a pretty good relationship with them, and things just got awkward. Do I sell the toy, take a loss, and move on? Do I You're the expert, I guess. That's my question.

I'm curious to know if there was any pressure that you felt at any time or your wife felt at any time to, A, borrow 80 grand from them to then get a pre-mod trailer and put it on their property. Was there pressure there or was it just they threw it out? You guys love the idea.

Basically, we sold our house and had some money set aside to do this project. It was just an idea that got thrown out there. And nobody thought it would really work. We were able to make it work, and we were pretty excited about that. There wasn't too much pressure there. It will most likely be our property at some point. So there wasn't too much for us on worrying with that.

Okay. There's two layers to this situation. The first layer is the simple four-wheeler question, okay? Yes, sir. On the simple four-wheeler question, I think you and your wife need to go over, ask them if you can come over and talk and have a cup of coffee and bring a pie. You just sit down and say, We thought that we had a monthly payment arrangement with you, and as long as we were doing that, we thought we were doing the right thing. Somehow there must have been more to the agreement than we understood. Because if we go on vacation, you're going to be If we buy a four-wheeler, you're going to be mad. But we didn't know that was part of the deal. We need to get on the same page about what our deal is, because I thought our deal was, I pay you monthly payments and you're happy. But now it's, I pay you monthly payments and I have to check with you before I buy anything. That's not a deal I'm okay with. Now, agreed, you shouldn't have bought a stupid four-wheeler in this situation, okay? That's an aside. You can say that, I made a mistake.

I shouldn't have I got the toy. But I'm trying to figure out what our boundaries are here so that I don't upset you again into the future. And basically call them out because they're out of line. You did a stupid thing, but they don't have a right to be upset about it because you kept your part of the deal. I'm telling you, sell this four-wheeler and get yourself out of debt with that money. Yeah, definitely do that, but not paying towards them. That's layer number one. That's the easiest layer. Do you want me to get harder, Jeremy, or do you want me to leave you alone?

No, I want to hear it.

Okay. You guys have made a colossal mess. You violated about six things here, and you're going to get... It's not going to It's not going to turn out well, I'm afraid. Colossal rule number one is you never put $80,000 worth of collateral on someone else's dirt. I don't care whose dirt it is, period, because you do not have control of the situation. If they in a car wreck in the middle of the night, fall asleep at the wheel, and these sweet little people hit somebody head on, and they get sued for $200 million, the dirt under your trailer is gone in that lawsuit, and they have no control over that, and you have no control over that. You have set yourself up, and I've seen this a thousand times in 30 years of doing what I do, not owning the dirt under your trailer is a massive mistake, number one. Borrowing $80,000 from your in-laws for anything for any reason is a massive Mistake number two. The borrower is slave to the lender, and as you have figured out, masters change the rules sometimes. You're the slave. Problem number three. You spend $80,000 on something that's going down in value, not up in value.

Trailers go down in value. They don't go up in value. So in 15 years, what's this $80,000 trailer worth? Nothing. You're burning $80,000 on your kitchen table every night, a little bit at a time. You got a massive entanglement of mess here, and I don't know exactly how to get you out of that one as easy as I did the other one. This is not a cup of coffee and a pie. But if I'm in your shoes, I'm going to start trying to unravel this thing. If I can figure out a way to honorably do that, I'm guessing the trailer won't bring 80 grand now, right?

No.

Okay. What would it bring now?

It might get close. There's not a lot of them around to get a good idea.

But- Okay. If you can get out of it, I would sell it and start fresh renting somewhere and give them their money back and keep you from owning an asset that's going down in value sitting on dirt that you don't own. Man, this is just... You're playing Russian roulette, and there's three bullets in the gun, not one.

Yeah. Dave, he's been sufficiently burned. I'll offer some sav. In the sav- I got permission. No, you're right. No, you couldn't be more right. I just can't add anything to it other than to say this. Walk away from this to realize it could have been way worse, and this thing can get nastier if you don't fix it now. I could not say that enough. You can dig out of this, but I would start digging quickly and make all these changes. You'll look back on this and go, I'm glad I did it.

It's going to get worse. The relationship is going to get worse. The finances are going to get worse. Everything's going to get worse. There's nothing in this story that turns out good. Yeah. The problem is to stop and say that out loud is like walking up in the middle of the town square and saying, The Emperor has no clothes. Everybody's going to look at you and go, But wait. Your wife is going to look at you, their precious little daughter, and go, My daddy would know. Oh, yes, he did. He already bitched about the four-wheeler. Of course, he's going to do it. It's coming. You know what your daddy is going to do. I already know what your daddy is going to do. I read his mail.

Well, Dave, this makes me think of the classic line in the wedding vows, Leave and cleave. There There's a psychological reason for doing that. There's wisdom in that phrase.

Not living on their land. Mom and dad have got some money, and they've got some land, and they were trying to do something nice, and they did a good thing in a dumb way.

Yeah, that's a great way of putting it.

How could you do this differently? All right, I'll tell you how you could do it differently. You carve up your property, you put a property line on it, and you give a parcel of it to your daughter. If you want her to have an $80,000 property, have her build something on there that will go up value and give her $80,000 of your money. Don't loan it to her and make her your slave and change the quality of your relationship. Thanksgiving dinner tastes different when you eat with your master. It changes the relationship, and you're not the exception. No one, none of you out there. Mom and dad, quit doing a nice thing, a good thing, a bad way, and cause them more problems than you were blessings. Yeah, that's right. That's... Poor Jeremy. I'm sorry, Jeremy, but you called and you asked. This is the Ramsey If you've got collectors breathing down your neck and you're drowning in credit card debt, you don't need another debt relief company trying to sell you sunshine and unicorns. You need real help. And Guardian Litigation Group is the real deal. They're not a call center. They're actual attorneys.

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Today's question comes from Mary in New Mexico. My husband and I have been listening to you for 30 Being empty nesters now, we have found that we had to pull back the reins a little bit, went back to using an envelope for groceries. We also eliminated credit cards and mostly use cash. The one expense that my husband refuses to use cash for is golf in all caps, with an exclamation point. He has been an avid golfer for 40 years, being the main breadwinner. He feels somewhat justified and deserving to continue this hobby. He never remembers what he spent, so we're constantly having to adjust for extra money that's coming out because he changes everything at the club. Then we Can I get an invoice. Could I please get your expert advice on dealing with this type of scenario? Well, I was a member of a local club for a while. One of the things I'm very thankful for, we had a corporate membership at a great golf course here. Stacey and I had to put this in the line item. He's got to put this in the budget. If it's not going to be cash, because I understand the way these clubs do this, he knows what it costs to golf.

He knows what it costs to get a cart if they were adding in. He knows what the taxes are on that. He also knows what it costs for a Twix at the turn or a turkey sandwich. So these are things that are all very controllable, and he's got to play ball. And so you know what it costs to play golf beyond your membership, whatever. So he's got to put that in there, and you guys got to come to an agreement on this is what we can spend as we're having to tighten up right now. He doesn't have to give up golf, but he's going to have to maybe cut back. So maybe that's rounds, maybe it's a drink after the round, whatever it is. He's just got to be disciplined with it, and it's pretty easy to track. He's just not wanting to do it because he's never had to. That's my take, Dave. I don't know what you think about that.

Well, there's a difference between continuing the hobby and she wants him to quit. It feels like it. This thing's dripping in I hate golf wife language.

Yeah, the all caps gives it away.

There's a difference between he has a right to continue his hobby because he's the red winner. He says that's a different argument than, Hey, you can't buy all the expensive stuff and play.

That's right.

Because we're having to tighten up. We can put a line item to this, and we can manage it if he chooses to be responsible. There's a difference between choosing to be responsible and choosing to play golf. That's right. I mean, you can be irresponsible, not bother with it, which is what he's doing. I think step one for him, for you, is not try to get him to quit. It's try to get him to rein in the additional expenses, whether you're buying food or drink or whatever he's doing while he's there. What can we do to limit that and put a number on it that we're not going to go over? That's very doable. It's very doable. But I think there's more going on here than the golf, capital letters, all exclamation points. It's pretty much I hate golf, wife language. I saw it.

Oh, no question about it. In his defense, you don't walk into the golf club with your cash envelope It's a envelope.

They bill it to you. A lot of courses don't... I mean, if you're a member of something, they won't... No. You have to sign. Yeah, that's exactly how it works. You don't have a choice. That's the only way to handle it. But it is trackable. But that doesn't mean you can't manage what you're spending, and you should. He needs to be responsible, and you probably need to lighten up on the golf heating. Sarah is in Detroit. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Hi. Thank you.

What's up?

Well, I've got a question around an EIDL business loan that was taken out. It's an economic disaster relief loan in 2020 for a business that has since gone under due to the pandemic. I spoke with two attorneys. They both said, I don't owe on the loan because it wasn't personally guaranteed, and it was the name of a business that went under. But I am a Christian, and I'm grateful for the a lot of our Messiah. Hallelujah. Amen. And God's law seems to say differently. So I'm going to negotiate with the SBA. I've been given the paperwork to do that, and I'm just wondering if you have any advice on how to negotiate, and then depending on what that number is, how I should go about paying it.

You don't have the money.

Well, I don't have the money for the whole loan, no.

But I have the money- Okay, how much is the whole loan? How much is the whole loan?

Okay, $25,000. All right.

And $25,000.

Yeah, I have 15. Well, actually, it's $15.

Actually, it's $24. Okay, and you have how much money?

It's $15,000. Okay. My emergency fund.

Okay. Well, there's two or three issues. From an ethics standpoint, The government gave you money for disaster relief for your business that failed, and it's not got a personal guarantee, and you're not liable. The government forgives that. From an ethics standpoint, at this point, you are not doing anything wrong by just simply accepting the forgiveness. Because this is not a bank loan from a... The bank is not going to get tagged on this. If it's got an SBA label on it, the SBA is going to cover it. Because this is a government thing that is waived in this instance. Another example would be, if you have a federally insured student loan and you become permanently physically disabled, the terms of those loans are there for given if you're disabled. You are not under an ethical Christian obligation to pay it anyway. The term of the loan was That it's forgiven if you're disabled. The terms of the loan on this are it's not personally guaranteed because it was given to a business in the midst of a disaster relief situation. Therefore, they did not require personal guarantees because it was virtually a grant is what it was, and it didn't work, obviously.

It did not turn your business around. I'm going to ask you to spend some time in prayer and make sure you're hearing from God, not childhood guilt, about what your Christian obligation is here. If you really feel like God is telling me to pay this, then for goodness' sakes, pay it.

Not really.

No. But if you feel... That's okay. I've been in those situations. I've paid stuff that people look at me like I'm a nut for having gone back and paid that. But I felt like God said to do it. Then other times, I don't feel any tinge of guilt at all. I'm just done. This is the deal. It's the way the deal went. Sorry. Good luck. That's where this one could fall. But But I never step in between someone and the Holy spirit. That's a dangerous place to stand.

Yeah, I guess I should give you a little more context. I got to a point where I was three months default because I didn't feel like I did owe it. I don't lie. I do my best to follow God's law. I got on the phone with the SBA, and I learned everything that they do and how it wasn't personally guaranteed. My information goes to the Department of Treasury after… Like, they just write, SBA lets it Department of Treasury gets my information. Then I started to feel fear, and I know that's not of God. Then I talked to my family and I started to get advice just from other people. Yeah, then I actually suggested I called you.

Well, I think you're telling me you're doing this out of an emotional guilt trip, not out of a Holy spirit leading. I think that's what you just said.

Yeah, I think so.

I'm not sure. But again, I'm not going to stand between you and the Holy spirit. If God tells you to do something, kiddo, you go do it. Dave does not get a Trump card on that. I don't get to lay down on that hand. So you got to figure that one out. But if you're just scared, it's the government. Tell them to stick it. That's pretty easy for me. This is the Ramsey Show.

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Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author of the book Paycheck to Purpose, is my co-host today. Michael's in Atlanta. Hi, Michael. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

How are you doing, Mr. Ramsey?

Better than I deserve, sir. How can I help?

I just want to say I appreciate everything you do for everybody. I grew up in an awesome family, awesome life and everything. My two financial advisors were Clark Howard and Dave Ramsey. I'm honored to be able to finally get her into a phase of life where I can make this phone call and be able to talk to you. I thank you for that.

Well, thank you. We're honored to have you. How can we help?

I'll just start off by saying that...

I'm sorry. Say it again. I said we're honored to have you. How can we help?

Yes, sir. I'm 27 years old and I work for my family business. My second job is an ICE business, and the owner is wanting to sell within the next two years or so. The sale will come with the building with existing tenants and the ICE company itself. He's asking for $1 million. As a married 27-year-old, running from my parents with no meaningful form of asset besides vehicles and what we have in our savings and investment, what do you think the best way that I can get a loan that big for that size? Me and my wife currently are living at my parents house. We We have no form of debt besides, or thanks to you, no debt. We work hard to pay off all our student loans and credit card debt and everything. We do have one car loan right now that we're trying to knock out as quick as possible. But like I said, no form of assets or anything like that.

Well, I'm a little bit confused about the part where you listened to me for years, and then you just asked me how you borrow a million dollars. Right. Exactly. That's a little bit inconsistent, isn't it? I mean, you know I don't do that, right?

Yes, it is. And with the other previous callers, I was thinking, maybe I should change the word from borrow to be able to obtain the business for that price. So I do apologize. Let me back up. What is the best route for somebody in my shoes to be able to obtain the business?

Okay. Well, you don't have a million. No bank is going to loan you this, okay? Like you said, you don't have the assets, you don't have the income. You're not bankable. A banker would just... It would take about, I don't know, less than four or five seconds to make the decision. You're not going to get that. So even if we all thought that that was a good idea, and we don't. What I would do is the first thing I do is separate the business from the real estate.

Okay.

Let him keep the real estate. And the business can be his tenant until you save up the money to buy the real estate later. You could do that out of the business. So what do you think of the million dollars? What do you think the real estate is actually worth market value?

So we haven't dug into the books or anything.

No, I didn't ask you about the books. I asked you about the real estate. What's the real estate worth, the building?

Approximately $750,000.

Okay, so you're wanting to buy an ICE business for $250,000. Sounds right to me. Okay, so it should be making a profit after After everyone is paid, including the manager of the business. After everyone's paid market wages, that business should be making a profit of $60,000 or $70,000 a year, is it? Okay, Oh, you haven't gotten into the book yet. You haven't gotten into the book yet. You don't know.

Correct. This is something that I want to try to figure out a route to see if it was even attainable before I dug into the book.

Michael, let me ask a real quick question, okay?

Yes, sir.

If you weren't working for this owner and they had not approached you about selling, they want to exit, would you be wanting to get into the ICE business if you weren't currently working for them and this wasn't an opportunity?

I believe so.

Okay.

If you weren't working there anymore a year from now, you would be going, I got to figure out a way to get in the ICE business.

I believe so. I think it's very lucrative, and I see a lot of opportunities in the ICE world itself. I'm glad I was introduced to it very young, and I think my answer would still be yes.

That's not your family, though. Your family is a different business. Correct. Okay. I want to make sure I got that straight. Okay. All right. Now, here's what I would tell my son, if he was your age, and came in and sat down at my kitchen table. I would say, You need a stronger personal financial foundation before you start talking about buying and running a small business. Buying and running a small business will take the bone marrow out of you. It will drain you. It'll squeeze you like yesterday's This is a dish rack, man. Because it becomes a mistress if you're not real careful, because you have to put everything, all your emotions, all your intellect, everything into it, and you got a car payment and live with your mama. So you're not ready do that. So you guys need to get out on your own and be debt-free and have a solid foundation in your life before you start talking about buying business. This is what I would tell my own son. Okay.

Can I ask you a question correlating to that? Sure. I see this opportunity, and I can see this opportunity as a long-term investment, a long-term, a great thing, just long-term down the road and everything. I'm not wanting to pass up on this opportunity as it comes to me right now. In my brain, you could tell me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. I just told you you were wrong. I just told you not to do it. Pass up on it. Pass it. Let it go. Let it go. Get in the ICE business later when you get your freaking act together. You don't have your act together yet. About all you're good at so far is talking yourself into this.

Yeah, it's not an opportunity. It's a trap.

Yeah.

With your current environment, Michael- You don't have any money.

You have a car payment and you live with your parents. I'm telling you, man, you really got to get out. You got to get out and get on solid ground to have a chance of making it in business. Business is hard. It's hard. You don't do it from your daddy's basement. It's hard, and you don't do it with a car payment. You need to get a solid, solid foundation. I don't think we can stop you. You got your foot on the pedal, you're heading off the cliff. Nobody sign, Bridge out, bridge out, bridge out. I don't care. I don't want to miss a chance. I'm taking a jump.

It's a chance to go swimming, Dave.

That's it, man.

That's the metaphor there.

We can't stop you. So you have at it, son, but I wouldn't do it. I'm telling you, I wouldn't do it. I think you're going to have plenty of times in your life to get into business and do it from strength, not from weakness, and you need to build some strength to do that. But it doesn't affect me, honey. If you want to do it, you go do it. But you ask what we would do, and we love you, and we want you to win. I told you exactly what I tell my own son, who I want to have a great life and prosper, just like I want that for you. You do what you want, but I don't think you're in a position to do this right now, and I would not do it. I'm not a dream killer, but I love stepping all over nightmares. I love kicking a nightmare out the door.

Here's a quick message. Listen, we've all been your age and bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, excited about what looks like an opportunity. This is a situation, Michael. If you were to jump into this in your current environment, you wouldn't even be able to be fully focused. Like Dave said, you need to be on a small business because of this financial stress. You're not in a position where this thing can take care of you. I didn't hear enough evidence either, and this is a positive. I'm not piling on here. I didn't hear enough evidence that he understood the business- Oh, he doesn't yet. And that he could truly grow the business in order to say, I could actually run the business. I'd like him to prove to the current owner that he, through his efforts, Michael, we're talking about, can grow the business. Yeah.

It's scary stuff. I would sit down and talk to the current owner if you want to do this, Michael. Here's a way to the idea, I guess, and say, Put me in leadership role for the next two years, and I can get my personal finances and straightened out. Then I want to talk to you. I'll take an option to buy, and then I'll talk to you about exercising It's a good option, but I'm not bound to it, not contractually.

Love that conversation.

You can be sitting there, learn the business inside and out. You may learn, you will learn a lot more about it than you know now, and you may learn the actual valuation is off.

That's such good advice. I hope everybody's listening to that because that actually creates an opportunity. It doesn't mean it's a good opportunity, but right now what you have is not an opportunity. If you go the Dave route there, now all of a sudden it becomes an opportunity and then have the option to choose to take the opportunity. That's what I like about that. There might be some sweat equity in that plan, too, if he helps grow the business.

The best business deals I have ever done in my life are the ones I passed on.

That's so true.

That's good. They're the best ones. This is the Ramsey Show.

Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens.

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Go to zander. Com or call 800-356-4282. Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, best-selling author and host of Front Row Seat, a big hit on Ramsey Network. He's my co-host today. Liz is in Nashville. Hi, Liz. How are you?

Hi, Dave. I'm good. How are you?

Better than we deserve. What's up?

I'm calling because me and my husband combined, we have a debt of 562,000. That includes our mortgage, but besides the mortgage, most of that debt is his. We're following your baby stuff, and we've been following it all year, but it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere. If anything, right now, we're back at the same amount that we had at the beginning of the year. I just don't know what to do. I don't know what to do anymore.

I'm sorry. How could you get back into debt when you're getting out of debt? I'm confused.

Exactly, yeah. Well, we've had situations with our cars come up, and then he loves to use his credit card for anything that comes up.

Okay, so we're going into credit card debt while we're trying to get out of debt. So he's not really trying to get out of debt. He's running business as usual, and you're trying to get out of debt.

Yeah. I mean, I have $11,000 of that that is mine. But even myself I can't seem to get out of it.

I'm physically- You said 562,000. How much of that is mortgage?

Five hundred thousand is mortgage.

Okay. What's the 62,000?

So 11,000 is mine and then the rest is yours.

No, there's not a mine. You're married. The $11,000 on what?

It's basically just credit cards.

Okay, so you have 11,000 on credit cards. What else is out there out of the 62?

It's all credit cards. We only have $1,000 on the car.

You have $62,000 on credit card debt. I'm sorry. You don't have a car payment.

That's true. Just one car payment. We have $1,000 left on it.

Okay, You owe $1,000 on a car. What do you owe on your student loans?

We have no student loans. I paid off my college.

Okay, so you basically have $62,000 in credit card, $61,000 in credit card debt. What's your household income?

I make 82, and he makes 80.

Okay, so you're $162,000 with a $500,000 mortgage. How long ago were you zero credit cards debt?

Well, I was at zero credit cards last year. He's always had credit cards debt.

How long have you been married?

We've been married for five years now.

When you're married, it's all ours. Mm-hmm. You understand me? Okay. You were never at zero because he's always had credit cards because we have had credit cards because you are married to Mr. Credit card. Yes. You've been married five years, and we have always had credit card debt. How much credit card debt did he come into the marriage with?

I think at that point, it was around maybe 70,000.

So it's maintained for about the last five years about the same?

Yes.

Okay. In his past, he overspent, which is what the credit card came from. But we're just going to- All right. Okay, so how old are you guys?

He's 41, and I'm 30.

Okay. All right. Well, this is not a system problem's problem. This is a person problem. It's a behavior problem. Okay? So your system of getting out of debt is not going to work until both of you decide you're going to get out of debt. He has not decided that. You have a marriage issue to sit down and talk to your husband and say, I want to get on the same page. I want us to get out of debt. You can't tell me you want to get out of debt unless you put all the credit cards on the table and cut them up right now.

Yeah, we actually did that this weekend.

Two quick questions. Give me quick answers here. How long have you been trying to do the baby steps?

Since the beginning of this year.

Okay. Then do you guys have separate finances? I'm guessing you do the way you're talking.

Yeah. Yes, we do.

Then one other one, I forgot. Does he use the credit card as just all of his expenses, and he's under the guise, I'm going to pay it off at the end of the month, but he never does? Is that what's going on? He's running everything through it?

He was. Not anymore.

Why did he agree to cut them all up last weekend?

I think it's because he's 41 and I'm just disappointed. I can't take it anymore. I have never had debt, and I've even racked up Eleven thousand.

Okay, wait a minute. Stop a minute. Okay. I get all that, but he cut up the credit cards last weekend, and then you called me and said he keeps going in the credit card debt. But it sounds like this guy turned the corner last weekend and said, I'm getting out of debt. I cut them all up. I'm confused about what you're upset about.

I guess because I thought the number was lower than what it is.

But you knew that last weekend.

Yeah, I'm at a point where I don't know what to do. I can't pay off what we owe.

I just don't see- Yes, you can. You make $162,000. You only need $62,000 to pay all this off. So you live on 100 and you are debt-free in one year. Voila. It's fairly easy. It's $5,000 a month and you are debt-free in one year. The two of you sit down and do a budget together, combine your stinking finances and get on the same page and go, We're going to put $5,000 a month on this debt because you cut up the credit cards, and I'm over this. I can't sleep. I'm terrified. I'm done with all this irresponsability, and you are, too. Thank you for cutting up the credit cards. Let's get on this and lock arms, and let's attack this thing and be done. That's how you do it. You make enough money to pay this off in one year. Easy. That's right. If you can't live on $100,000 in Nashville, something's wrong with you.

Well, I've tried, and it just doesn't add up with daycare, with everything. It was It just doesn't add up.

What's your house payment? No, I know what your house payment is. Yes, you have not done a budget because the math you're giving me is just not factual. You can pay daycare and eat and pay your house payment out of $100,000. That's $8,000 a month. Quit your 401k. If you're getting a refund, reset your W-2s and quit getting a tax refund. Cash out whatever money you've got in savings, chop up the credit cards, and attack this. There's something... Liz, your hopelessness is not logical unless you believe he's really not going to stop, in which case you need to go see a marriage counselor. But if he's acting like I'm talking about and he goes, Yeah, we're going to live on beans and rice, rice and beans. We're going to stop the 401(k)s. We're not going on any vacations. We're going to sell so much stuff. The kids are afraid they're next. We're getting extra jobs. We're going to live on a written budget. The two of us are agreeing together. I just cut up the credit cards. Boom. Five thousand bucks a month goes on this. That's $60,000 a year. That leaves me $100,000 to live on.

Shut up and do it. That's what it takes right there. You just got to go do this now. But you can't live in the past and be going, Well, are you back to any? I don't care. All it matters is the next 12 months. Game on, baby. Super Bowl. Put the ball in the end zone. Let's go. This is Dave Ramsey. We all want to know that the money we give to charity is doing something that matters, that it's making a real change, giving someone lasting hope. Here's one way to make sure of that. Give to preborn. They're the real deal. Proven, transparent, and changing lives every day. I trust preborn, and you can, too. They're on the front lines of the battle for life, partnering with clinics to offer free ultrasounds to mothers in crisis. Because when a mom sees her baby on that screen, something changes. It's not just a decision anymore. It's a person. And 80% of the time when a Mom sees that ultrasound, she chooses life. Your $28 gift provides one of those ultrasounds, just $28 to be the reason someone chooses life. And at every clinic, the gospel is shared, giving moms the chance to choose life and find real hope in Christ.

$28, one ultrasound, one heartbeat, one mom who realizes she's not alone. That's the life-changing impact your giving makes through preborn. Go now to preborn. Com/ramsey or call 855-601-2229. That's preborn. Com/ramsey. If you're wondering where all your money went in 2025, that's normal. Normal is broke, but next year can be different. Get a head start by downloading Every Dollar. Every Dollar builds you a personalized plan and coaches you to find the extra money and then put it to work to beat debt and build wealth. We're going to show you hand-to-hand how to work the Ramsey plan exactly. Just answer a few questions and you'll find thousands of dollars on average in just the first 15 minutes. That's extra margin to move your plan forward. Every dollar still has the same great budgeting features to help you tell your money what to do. Hey, don't go another year feeling broken, stressed. Start every dollar for free in the App Store or on Google Play. Emily is with us in New York. Hi, Emily. How are you?

Hi, good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

My question is about if my husband and I are financially prepared to start a family or if we should wait a little bit longer to be responsible.

You're ready.

Maybe I see you would do Is it the background or is it out of blanket answer?

I'll take the background as a courtesy, but here's the thing. We don't tell people to not have babies due to debt. We tell them to not have huge numbers of babies. But your first baby, start a family, is a wonderful thing. It's the best thing you'll ever do while you're alive. We don't tell people to not do that because of a certain dollar figure around it. But let's hear it and I can give you some reassurance. How much How much debt do you guys have?

We actually just have 30K student loans that are completely interest-free between the two of us.

Okay, cool. Is that your only debt?

That's our only debt.

And what is your household income?

That's the issue. Our household income is $120,000 of a base salary with $50,000 equity.

And that's because my husband- Equity? What's equity mean?

Equity means it's basically just registered stock units paid out quarterly because my husband works for a large company, and that's part of their compensation package.

He can cash those out how often?

He can cash them out whenever after they vest. There's a vesting period.

How long does it take for them to vest? That's what I'm asking.

This year, it'll vest at the end of a year, and then after that, it's quarterly.

Oh, wow. Okay. He makes $170,000 a year, including his stock bonuses.

Yes, but not this. He won't make that this year because we just started with that company. We're also both 24. There's a few considerations. We just recently got married, but we're living in New York City, and our rent is crazy. We don't have a car, where our budget, despite the salary, is pretty tight. We don't have a lot of cash every month.

Are you working?

That's the problem, is that we actually had to move to the States for this job for my husband. Him and I together had saved about 150K before we moved here. Then I had to give up my job thinking I'd be able to get another job. But the immigration restrictions on what jobs I'm allowed to work have been so tight that it's been a few months and I have nothing. Before we moved here in our home country, I was making about 80K, and now I'm making nothing. I I feel like I'm just sitting around at home, and I've always wanted to be a mom, and I've always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. We're like, Do we just start a few years earlier than we thought we would, or should I try to find a job?

So are both of you on a… He's not on a green card. What's he on? H-b-1?

No, he's on a TN visa, which is because we're from Canada.

Okay. Both of you are from Canada, so you're on a green card?

No. We'll work towards the green card process eventually if we want to stay in the US long term. But right now, he's just on TN, and I'm on a dependent spousal visa.

Okay, so what is the plan? Are you planning to stay or not?

We'll see what his business requires as it's more of a following a passion for work thing that is the immigrating somewhere specific. If the company requires him here, we'll stay here. If they require him in Canada, we'll go to Canada. What can you do right now?

That's another factor.

What work can you do? What work can you do that is immigration allowed? Let me rephrase. You told us there were a ton of restrictions, so I'm wondering what work can you do that's not restricted.

Yeah. To explain, basically, you can get a visa if your work aligns with exactly what you did your undergraduate degree in. I did my undergraduate degree in a science, and then I had been working in consulting and project management in a business role before we moved here. None of those qualify for a visa in the United States. This has to be a very specific technical job, like my husband's an engineer, but project management does not qualify. But I don't have any technical science experience despite my degree, so I'm having a really hard time finding a job that I'm legally allowed to work because I never planned to move to the States.

No, I get it. In this situation, does he have health insurance?

Yeah, he has really good health insurance.

Okay, all right. It will probably transfer where to go back to Canada and have great health insurance there, right?

Yeah. We'd be fine with all the health care stuff. It's more just I hear all the time, Oh, baby's got nothing. You don't need anything.

You have a baby. Here's the thing. Three years from today, you will not be in this situation.

Correct. If we get a green card, I'll be doing the work.

Something's going to happen. You're either going to get a green card or you're going to go back to Canada, right?

Yeah.

This income is a temporary thing based on all the story that you've told us. If I woke up in your shoes and you guys both want a child and God wants you to have a child, I would go have a child. That's what I would do. But do I want to be irresponsible and say neither one of us are working? No, I don't want to do that. Or do I want to be irresponsible and have 10 kids and we make $30,000 a year and can't figure out a way to feed them? That's irresponsible, too. I wouldn't want to do But to have a child when you're making 120,000 and you've got an uncertain immigration process looking in front of you in the next five years, I would definitely live my life. I wouldn't put my life on hold for his company, which is in a sense what we're doing. No, I wouldn't do that. I think you can afford it. I think you can make it. You've got labor delivery covered. Babies are not as expensive as everybody acts like. It's not the end of the world. I think you guys can pull this off.

You do whatever you want to do, but that's what we would do at our house.

I just am so frustrated for her. I just bang my head against the wall metaphorically as I'm listening to this. Here's a law-abiding Canadian. She wants to work, and the goofball rules that the government comes up with sometimes makes me want to just scream. Because this is an opportunity to work. If I understood her correctly, Dave, she can't do anything. She can't even go to Walmart and work.

Unless it's something to do with her degree field. That's what she said. I'm not knowledgeable about any of that.

I am not either. But wow.

But it is frustrating. But either way, bottom line is she ends up at home and that makes her say, I want to be a mom. Yeah. So that may be a blessing.

I would tell them, get into every dollar, learn how to budget, because I know that my parents, they scrapped by. I don't know what your parents' situation was, but they hardly had any money when I was born, and they figured it out. In some ways, that's a great way to get really responsible.

Yeah, it makes you pay attention, and every dollar is a good way to pay attention. You're exactly right. You're going to make every dollar behave. You need to anyway, but especially, it wakes up when you got another human you're supposed to be responsible for. That extra responsibility gives us that adults devise a plan and follow it, children do what feels good. We're going to do this. I think she's been very responsible asking the question. I poked fun and said, yes, just go out baby. But I think it's a responsible question, which means they're going to be okay.

What I loved is she told us how much money they saved before coming to the States. This is a couple that has learned how to be disciplined. It's a lot of money they saved, $150,000.

Yeah, and he's making $170,000. They can make it on that. This stuff, this, you can cash it. Don't hold that stock and stack it up and starve to death. Cash that stock in, take care of that baby. You'll be okay. Let's just go on. Everything's going to be all right.

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Hey, Malikai, how are you? Pretty good. How about yourself? Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, I have myself in a financial hole that I'm finding harder to get out of than I expected. I have debt that I'm trying to get rid of, but it just seems like it's not getting anywhere.

That's no fun. How much debt have you got, brother?

I have just about $260,000 a bit.

Okay. Give me a little breakdown on that. What's the categories?

$250,000 of that is my house, and the other, I'd say about $10,000 is money that I owe family.

You say you don't owe anything on a car or a credit card or a student loan?

I do owe $4,000 on my car.

Okay. All right. What else? Anything else? No, other than that, that's it. Okay. What's your income, sir?

My income is at $90,000 per year right now.

Okay. Why can you not pay these bills with $90,000?

Well, I've been eating away at the debt of my home. In just over six months, I've paid $110,000 of it.

That's far from being stuck, sir. That's actually incredible progress.

Yeah, it doesn't quite feel that way. I have no money in the bank.

Well, you paid it all on debt.

Yeah.

I mean, you're not going to have money in the bank until you clear the debt. I would back up and knock the $4,000 car debt and the $10,000 family debt out next before I pay any extra on the house. Then I would put an emergency fund in place of 3-6 months of expenses. I'd put $15,000 in a high-yield savings account that's sitting there just for emergencies. I just gave you $30,000 worth of an assignment. How quick can you knock 30 out?

I would have to figure about six months, maybe less.

Yeah, that sounds right. Because you're living on nothing. You're game on. I mean, you not got any lifestyle eating this up, or you wouldn't be making this mathematical progress.

Yeah.

You're already pretty stink and frugal, aren't you?

Yeah, very much so, yeah.

I'm thinking. Basically, top ramen every day. There you go.

Yeah, I got a different word for you, Malachi. You don't have an elimination problem. You have an allocation problem. Our baby steps, the snowball, is where you start here. And all of a sudden, this momentum is going to just be unbelievable for you. You've just been going about it the wrong way.

Get the family in the car off your back and emergency fund in place of 15,000. That's 30,000 worth. Then you go back and start talking about the house again. You don't have to be so intense on the house. You're going to wander out of that house. You don't have to be quite so fired up about it. It's interesting, though, the way you opened the phone call with us, it sounded like you were on the verge of bankruptcy or something, like you were stuck. Then quite the opposite is true. You're making incredible progress, and you're living on nothing and applying all of your money towards your goals. You're way ahead of the game. You're far from stuck, sir. You're actually very successful.

Well, I'm 23 years old, just turned 23. Phil, I just felt, I guess, off that I have no money in the bank.

Well, that's fair. Okay. But you understand the progress you're making mathematically is pretty incredible.

I can see that, yes. Okay.

All right. I want you to own that because that helps you continue. Because if you feel like you're doing something wrong, you lose your emotional momentum to fight on through. But get Get your family off your back, not like they're on your back, they may or may not be, and get the car off your back. It is definitely there. And have 15,000 in the bank. I think that'll put you in a different emotional spot. And then let's turn up the lifestyle a little bit, like have a life, and slow down a little bit on paying off the house. I want you to pay it off in four or five years, three or four years. I don't know, you're 27 with a paid four house in Tucson, Arizona. That would be a weird Gen Z thing to do. Lovely.

I want to point out to our audience, we have a lot of new people joining us all the time. I'm glad, Dave, that you're here on this call because this is an example of why so many years ago, you created the Baby Steps to create not just financial momentum, but actually emotional momentum. Here's a guy who's got his act together. The studio audience is shocked. There's a 23-year-old, and he's like, I feel like I'm stuck. Well, he's been putting all of his money on the biggest piece of his debt, which is the house, and therefore, he has no emotional momentum. That's why he presents this way. That's the magic of what you created all these years ago.

The power of Baby Steps is you can go anywhere wherever you want to go if you just keep walking. It's just one step at a time. He feels like he's in a hamster wheel right now because he's going at it the wrong order. Yeah. So knock out the little stuff. Start achieving some of the goals. So hang on, Malachi. I'm going to send you a copy of the book, The Total Money Makeover. About 10 million people have got it, so it's working. The baby steps are outlined in that, and it'll show you exactly what to do, and it'll change that. Because Ken's right. What we figured out, Malachi, and for the rest of is that personal finance is 80% behavior. It's only 20% head knowledge. The mathematics of wealth building you learn by the sixth grade. It's not rocket science. This is not med school. You don't have to have a master's degree in finance and statistics to become wealthy. It's literally sixth grade math. So math is not our problem. It's not bothering to to pay attention to the guy in the mirror in his decisions. Malachi is paying attention to the guy in the mirror and is making great progress.

We're just going to redirect his progress a little bit so he feels it. That's exactly right. If you feel it, then that matters because this is behavior. It's all about feedback loops, the psychologist would tell you. You're not going to keep going to the gym and not quit eating and not stay away from donuts if you don't lose weight as a result. You're like, Bring on the donuts and I'm not sweating. If I'm going to not lose weight or I'm going to gain weight, I might as well enjoy it. But if you go to the gym and you stay away from donuts, I'm talking to Dave, then you can drop some poundage. Then you go, Oh, well, that behavior resulted in a result that I like, so I get a feedback. That's exactly right. I get a positive feedback, keeps me doing it. That's a feedback loop. That's where this comes from and where it goes to. So very, very good stuff. Devon is in Kansas City. Hi, Devon. Welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hey, thank you guys for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

Hey, so me and my wife are wanting to know if we are in a good financial spot to make her a stay-at-home mom.

Can you live on your income?

I believe so. It's going to be tighter than what we're used to.

Well, of course.

After budgeting it out and doing our every dollar budget- What do you make? I make about $56,000 a year.

What does she make?

She makes between $20,000 and $25,000.

How many kids have you got?

We've got one right now and one on the way due in about November.

Okay. Well, daycare and some professional clothing is just about eating up her income.

Yes, she works in a daycare, luckily, so we actually.

Oh, well, then it's not. Then No, it's not. So she gets 25 plus she gets a deal on the baby daycare, right?

Yeah, and I think we would technically qualify for daycare assistance in Kansas, so that would help out as well.

I don't even know what that is, but okay. We have daycare assistance. All right, good. That's another government program. It sounds like a joy to me. But I don't guess you need that if she's going to be at home.

Yeah, correct.

Here's what you do, man. Not only run your budget, between now and the time she quits, live two or three months on your income without touching hers. Okay. And apply all of her income or more to your baby steps and prove to yourself that you can live on your income. Just act like she doesn't have an income and run your household. Because if she quits, she ain't going to have an income. You better get used to that. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, it's Rachael Cruz. The holidays are here, which means family time and giving back and remembering what the season is all about. And let's be real, it also also means shopping. You all, if you're anything like me, December gets really busy and really expensive. It's harder to stay intentional with your spending. And that's why I love shopping on Amazon, especially this time of year. Named the lowest priced US online retailer for nine years running by Profitero, a third-party analytics and research firm. Amazon's prices are up to 14% lower across top categories and beat competitors by up to 5% in key gift categories. Between amazing deals, stress-free shopping, and fast shipping, Amazon makes gift giving simpler, the holiday season a little brighter, and helps me keep my budget in check.

That allows me to get back to enjoying the season. What more could a busy mom ask for? So for more information about Amazon's low prices and easy, affordable holiday shopping, head to Amazon today. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. If you like the show, you could help us. We could use your help big time. You want to help? Ready? Set, go. Here's what you do. Click, follow, or share the show, or subscribe, or leave a five-star review. Mama said, if you're getting anything nice to say, don't say nothing at all. So Try that, you little trolls. And have some fun out there, people. Hey, spread the word. We appreciate it very much. We know that we were the fourth show in history on Apple podcast to have a billion downloads. That was a year and a half ago. Joe Rogan was one of the first, and it was one of the NPRs and then us. Now we're at a billion and a half downloads, where you get about a billion minutes watched on YouTube every 35 minutes. It's crazy. I mean, it's nuts.

I need to call my mom real quick.

Billions and billions of you. I mean, the number of hours and minutes consumed by you guys out there is crazy. Thank you so much. We know you're there, and we know you're spreading the word because the numbers are growing. So thank you and continue to share the show and spread the word and subscribe and follow and all that stuff. It does help us because it changes the algorithms and pushes the show forward to other people to see it. Lauren is in New New York City. Hi, Lauren. How are you?

Hi. Good afternoon, Dave.

Afternoon. How can I help?

I am at a point where I am drowning in credit card debt. I have about $70,000 in credit card debt currently, and I can't really stop the bleeding. It's all due to attorney fees.

You paid $75,000 in attorney's fees?

Also moving. I was in a situation where I was married, and my husband was an alcoholic and substance abuser, and I had to get out of that situation.

So what did you spend to move?

I'm in Westchester, so it was about $9,000 to move between broker fees.

So you spent 60,000 bucks on lawyer fees?

Yes.

For what?

I've had to fight tooth and nail for my child. It's been a very challenging court case. At this point, the court has ruled he cannot have access to my nine-year-old daughter. But it's been contempt orders and violation, not on my part, on his. Also, there's an attorney, Guardian Ad L'Item as well. So I'm paying both of the attorneys. It's just been a very harrowing experience that we are, thankfully, going to come to the end of hope soon by the end of the year.

Okay, so the bleeding is stopping then. It will towards the end of the year. What a horrible thing you've been through. I'm so sorry. What do you make? What's your income?

I make $90,000 a year, and I'm in a very expensive area that I'm not legally allowed to leave. I am currently working at a nonprofit organization, and I can make more money. I have a doctorate in physical therapy, but I am tied to my job for the next two and a half years because I have extensive student loans totaling in the amount of $260,000, and I'm in public service loan forgiveness, and I only pay for 14 months. So after that, my loans will be forgiven. Plus, they're very flexible. I have a daughter with special needs, so I'm really stuck at that amount right now, making that $90,000. So the way it stands right now, I'm basically barely making my bills at this point, and I do not receive any type of child support or anything like that. I'm just making the bare minimum on the credit card payments. I'm trying to figure out when this is all said and done and I can go in. I can't touch anything right now.

Is there any Is there a financial settlement that you're going to get from the divorce?

No, there's absolutely nothing. I'll be lucky if I get child support at this point. I'm not going to bank on anything at this point.

If you could, I understand the limitations based on the loan forgiveness, but could you practice physical therapy today, just theoretically on paper, with your current qualifications?

The answer is yes, but I also have a daughter with special needs that requires a lot of my time. If I had to pay for childcare, plus finding a provider that would be able to provide that childcare, I'm in a very difficult situation.

No No family support or friends in Westchester at all that could help out?

No, my family is from Florida. I don't have any family here.

Okay. Here's what's going to happen. Something's going to explode because you have painted a picture that says, I'm stuck in the corner and everything around me is wet paint and I can't move. And yet you're going to get your feet, you're going to get pain on your feet. Something's going to give. This is not sustainable. That's why you called us. So I don't know what it is it's going to give, but something's going to happen here, and it's not going to be pretty. You're going to have another set of problems and anxiety-ridden mess following this anxiety-ridden mess of a divorce because you've painted yourself into this corner of, I don't have any choices. I don't have any choices. You better make some because what you're telling me isn't sustainable, and you know it's not sustainable. You need to get your lawyer that's so dead gum expensive to go before the court and get you out of Westchester County. You need to forget the stupid loan forgiveness because you're probably not going to get it. You need to go make about $200,000 a year and get your freaking life back or something. I don't know what it is, but something's got to change because everything that we bring up, everything we talk to you and ask you about is a trap.

I'm trapped. I'm trapped. I'm trapped. I'm trapped. That was the answer to every one of your questions. I don't have any choices. I don't have any choices. And yet the math is not working. So math will not give you a pass. Math does not believe in grace. Math does not believe in mercy. It's going to come for you, and it already is, and you're feeling it, and that's why you're calling. I'm not trying to scare you, but your process by all the stress you've been through and all the damage you've been through, it has made you believe that you are trapped and don't have choices. I'm challenging that. You do have choices, and you better make some. You better change something here because you're not going to get help from him. I'm betting that the student loan forgiveness doesn't work because such a low percentage of those actually do go through, and you may have sacrificed a great income for a lousy income. I don't think you're trapped there. I think if you go before the judge and go, Your Honor, I don't make enough money to live in Westchester. I can't live here. Help me out here.

Where can I go? What can you tell me what to do? You go before the judge with that, Plead, and then you go, Okay, now, how am I going to work with this special needs child and give them proper care and also be able to feed them and house them? You can't The math that you've given me doesn't continue. Something's going to come up short, and it's going to choose you if you don't choose it. That's what I'm saying. You're not stuck, but you do have a very difficult situation. And part of it is my heart's breaking for you, honey, because I hear your language as if you have been abused in this relationship. So if you were in a domestic violence situation, one of the things the abuser convinces the person of is that they don't have any choices in that they're stuck. You can't leave. You can't afford to live without me. So you have to stay and be my punching bag. That's one of the lies they tell. And then you start to believe that lie yourself. Now, you broke free of this guy, but your language of I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck is breaking my heart because it still sounds like he still owns I want you free from him and free from this trap and free from all this.

I wish I had a magic wand. I could just say there's an instant thing here. But the one thing I will tell you is you got to make some different choices. It's not working for you, hon. I'm so sorry.

She can find people that can help take care of the child, but she's the only one that can feed the child. For that reason, I would drive this home. I would be getting into physical therapy and making the most money possible. That gives you more options.

I'm stuck in a nonprofit making no money in the most expensive county in freaking New York area, except possibly Manhattan. This is the Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. Shay is in Idaho. Hi, Shay. How are you?

Hi there. I'm glad to be speaking with you, Dave and Ken. I'm very grateful for your ministry.

Well, thank you. How can we help?

Yeah. My question is around the enjoyment side of money. My husband and I both struggle with that, and specifically around planning and booking vacations. When that time comes around, I just start to feel so much anxiety and shame about spending so much money on something. It's just hard for And so I was wondering if you had any tips.

Well, number one, you have to practice because you've not developed that muscle. Your frugal muscle is overdeveloped, and that's how you got here. Thank goodness. But you've not flexed your enjoyment muscle very much while you were flexing your frugal muscle. Agreed?

Probably, yeah.

So the more you do it, the better you get at it. I speak from experience. I had a hard time buying a decent car, and now I don't have any trouble at all.

That has been our struggle as well.

The second thing is I look at ratios and the ratios are what percentage of our world are we actually spending, and how does it compare to our generosity? We look over here and we say, Our generosity equals X, and this dinky butt little trip we're doing is a small, small, small percentage of what we make and what we give.

Okay.

My heavenly Father, who's crazy about me, says, if we, being evil, know how to give our children good things, how much more so our Father in heaven wants us to have good things, in other words. God's not mad if I enjoy some of the blessings that he gave me while I'm being generous and while the amount of money feels like a lot because it's compared weirdly, emotionally to the old days. But as a percentage of my world today, it's a very small amount. That's the ratio thing, the generosity thing, and the acknowledgement. Another example that is, okay, around Ramsey, we have 1100 team members. We're in 650,000 square feet. We spend more. We furnish coffee. We have coffee, these grinding coffee machines on every floor, right? They make fresh brewed ground coffee for everybody, and they don't pay for it. It's free to all the team members. We spend more on coffee than I made in a year most of my life. That still freaks me out. It's still a problem, but it's just a matter of scale and ratio. But it's a very small percentage of what Ramsey, the organization, has coming in in revenues.

So obviously, we're not being irresponsible. We're not We're going to have to shut down because of our coffee. It's not even close. And that's the case I'm guessing. What's your all's net worth, Shay? Over a million. And what is your household income?

My husband makes 120, and I make around 50.

So 170 with a million. And what are you talking about spending on a trip?

They just get more expensive every year.

What are you talking about spending on a trip?

Like 12 to 15. Yeah.

Well, it's absurdly small percentage of your world.

Is that you, Hubs, the kids?

While we were talking about this, the million dollars made you 12. That's true.

Who's going on the trip?

All six of us.

Right. How old are the kids?

Oh, sorry. They're 6, 8, 10, and 11.

Okay. As a guy who has one in college and another one graduating high school, I'm going to give you two words that I think you need to process the next time you start feeling this shame about spending money because you've already proven to be frugal. Here's what I want you to think of. Return versus regret. What's the return on that investment of the 12 to 15,000 with those six kids 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now? What's the return on those memories and all of the things?

All right? Minds still talk about it.

Versus the regret. If you don't take those kinds of trips with those six, and then they get out. I think return versus regret. You've already proven you're frugal. Dave and I aren't here worried about you overspending, but you've got to play those words out. What's the return on this trip? Then what would the regret be if we didn't do things like this and had all this money, but very few memories and experiences?

The return versus the regret does not work if you're borrowing the money to do it, boys and girls out there in radio land. Hello. Good point. This lady's a millionaire making 170, and she's going to write a check for this. That's right. Don't use this same argument. I put $12,000 on my credit card because kid Coleman said I would regret it if I didn't go on this vacation. No, you'd be regretting being stupid if you did that.

Thank you for clarifying that. Okay. That is within the context of you have cash.

Yeah, you have the money. It's a small percentage of your world. I suspect your generosity is larger than your trip. I suspect. Most people who get where you are, their generosity is there. Hey, you're doing a good job. Enjoy the ride. Yeah. Folks, this falls under the... The reason I have to stop and clarify that is-Oh, you're right. Live like no one else, so that... That's correct. She's at the so that. Later, you can live and give like no one else. But the truth is what I spend or what someone who has accumulated some wealth is a small percentage of our wealth is spent on consumption. Most of it is spent on generosity and reinvestment. The vast majority of the money that I touch and that God has blessed me to manage for him is either reinvested for future generations or it is invested in other ways called generosity, back into the community, in some community somewhere, and some dollar amount. Those are the two things that make up the vast The highest majority, the highest percentage by far of our income or of our networth is invested in those two things. Our consumption, though, is still ridiculously larger than it was when we were not making any money and didn't have any money.

So it still is emotional. It still feels weird. Sometimes even friends or dysfunctional family will say stupid things like, You're so lucky. Well, that's a dumb butt thing to say. Luck had nothing to do with it.

Don't say that around Dave.

Luck comes in dressed with calluses and overalls, getting ready to do some work. That's where luck comes in. I know where luck comes from. It's a sweat. That's where luck comes from. I got your luck.

Luck's when you win the raffle. Yeah.

Luck's when you were smoking crack in the parking lot and bought a lottery ticket and hit it. That's luck. There we go. Okay, but that's luck. But that's luck, but this is not luck. This is work and God's blessings. God just deciding in his infinite grace that he was going to touch us with the tip of his finger and bless the things that we were working on and protect us and allow us to be sitting here. But don't call it luck. It's insulting to God, and it's insulting to my calluses. Listen up, guys, because I've got a big question for you. Where will you be with your money at the end of 2026? Will you be better off, worse, or exactly the same? Believe it or not, you get to choose. Look, I know there's a lot going that can make you feel powerless over your money, but I want you to hear me. You're more in control than you think. You can turn your finances around. So let me help you out. Start your year off with me and Dave Ramsey at our free Every Dollar Livestream event on January eighth. We're cutting through all the lies and all the chaos out there that's keeping you stuck.

So you have the clarity you need to finally get ahead. And you could even win $2,000 just for signing up. Listen, another year is going to pass anyway. So decide that this is the year you're going to take back control of your life and your money. Go sign up for the free livestream at everydollar. Com/livestream. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Selling a house the Ramsey way, buying a house the Ramsey makes homeownership a blessing instead of a curse. The Ramsey Trusted program is the only way to find a real estate agent you can trust to keep you on track with what we teach here at Ramsey. Now, we do not put real estate agents in our endorsed program unless we have vetted them and their high performance, high octane. It's not your aunt Sally who got her license last week, and she was selling Pampered Chef right before that. Now, this is somebody that actually sells a lot of houses. They actually know what they are doing in order to become Ramsey Trusted Agents. If you want to find out who we recommend in your area and get your place sold or maybe help you get something bought, check it out.

Ramsey Trusted Real Estate Agent. You can do it for free. Ramseysolutions. Com/agent. Melanie is in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Hi, I'm good.

How are you? Better than I deserve. How can we help?

Okay. My husband and I have two rental properties. My mother-in-law has lived in one since 2019. She moved in from Vermont, didn't have a place to go, and so my husband let her move in to that house. 2020 hit, my husband's in the army, didn't get a certain something that everyone was demanded they were told to get, and he lost his job. Said he was going to sell the house. She told him that God told her it is not... It is his job to take care of her because he is the son. So he bought a new house in the town on the road, and she still lives currently in this same house.

We have- Were you all married at this time when God told her that about you?

No, we were not. I was not around. Okay. So he was single and she lived with him. So we have one child. We are expecting our second one in October, and I'm self-employed. My husband's still in the army, but we came mutually to the decision that in August, because my job is pretty physical, that I'm going to stop working, and then I'm only probably going to go back maybe one or two days a week. And so it would be very helpful to have an actual income coming in from that house. She pays half of the mortgage, my husband pays $450, and his one brother gives $150 towards it. It's a sticky situation. There's six siblings between all of them, and everyone else has had their opportunity to grow and expand their family. My husband is the last one out of the six to be married and have kids. We don't want to kick her out, but she- Yes, you do. Well, I don't want to say I do, but it would just be helpful.

You're so sweet. Just tell me, just say what you mean. You want her to I believe. She's taking advantage of her body and you're over it.

Yes. That's where my husband is at.

Well, then he needs to deal with his mom.

But this is the other thing. She won't move in to a senior high rise. I don't care.

She will if she's homeless.

She doesn't want to move anywhere.

She will if she's homeless.

Do you think that's our best option? Give her 60 days and tell her…

Listen, I can tell you how to get her out. It's Two words, rubber snake. That's where I was going.

I was going to ask, what is she afraid of? Because we can make this really easy with no tension.

Well, but that's the other hard thing is She claims PTSD. She claims all of these issues all the time.

I think I claim that she's moving into assisted living if she can't manage her's life. We'll help her do that with a little bit of money, and we'll use some of the money from the sale of the house. You need to sell the house.

That's what we ultimately want to do.

We'll use some of the money from the sale of the house to help her get settled and then unplug the cord, the umbilical cord.

Okay? Okay. Because my husband was just from the Christian perspective, he was feeling very guilty from it.

No, honey, there's nothing Christian about this. Let me just tell you. I had a guy walk into the office here a while back to the front desk, and I said, There's a guy down here to see you. I walked down, he said, God told me you were going to buy me a van. I said, No, he didn't. He didn't tell you that. He said, What do you mean? I said, Hey, he absolutely did not tell you that. Because if he had told you that, he would have told me. There'd be a van sitting out there for you. But he didn't tell me. I'm always interested as a Christian for people who play the God card with such authority, and all they are is a manipulator. This has nothing to do with honoring your mother. When they say, honor your father and your mother, it doesn't say, Honor their misbehavior. It says, Honor the office of motherhood, the office of fatherhood. If your mom does cocaine and wants you to buy it for her, that is not a godly act. Okay? Right. And your mother-in-law is misbehaving. She's a travel agent for guilt trips. She's got issues.

That's good. I'm going to use that. I've never heard that before.

Yeah, I know. That's a good one.

Yeah, I like that. And your poor husband has been pushed around by her, and then she plays the God card, and God didn't tell her that. That's a complete load of crap.

Okay? Thank you.

It's absolutely not true.

What's your husband's stomach for all of this?

Is he going to take Is he going to take her on?

His thought was he was going to put the house on Section 8, and then we would register her for Section 8 housing.

No, that's awful. She needs to move. He needs to deal with his mom. He needs to lovingly, kindly go sit down, have a cup of coffee, and go, Mom, we're done. I love you, and I'm going to help you move into some assisted living with some of the money I make from the sale of this house, but you have milked this cow, and it is dry, and you're not milking anymore, Mom. We're done. Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, We are done. You are moving. You're either going to move gently and kindly with my assistance, or I'm going to set you in the street with the sheriff. Now, do you want to play this the easy way or the hard way? You've reached the end of my patience. I am done. I love you. I'm going to help you as best I can, but you living here is not going to happen anymore. He needs to have the backbone to say that. You don't need to be in the room.

Well, that's… Yeah, he has a lot of animosity towards her.

You don't need to be in the room. You'll get blamed for all this. You'll be the wicked stepdaughter.

If he's got animosity towards her, this actually should be a little easier because- Well, you just got to be careful and be kind. Yeah, but I mean, as far as disappointing her, I mean, look, you guys have got to tell mama- Couldn't give a crap laugh if she was disappointed.

I agree. No, he's not afraid she'll be disappointed. Him and his brother are best friends. And his brother is the one that sometimes also guiltrips him to keeping his mom there.

Well, then let him write the checks.

You guys got to cast a little vision here.

It's amazing how everybody's got an opinion about what you guys should do with your money.

That's the key. I know.

This family, they put the fun and dysfunction, don't they?

Wow. You're coming home with a new baby, and this is a financial asset that will help you all live the life you want to live. I'd stay in that lane. To where they are painted in a corner.

You're multimillionaire and you want to put up with this crap and you want to just write checks just to not have to deal with it, that's fine. But it's not good for her. She's going to continue to do this crap the rest of her life. It's not good for you guys. You're He's losing respect for your husband. He's losing respect for himself because he won't stand up to this mom that's out of control. It's not biblical. Automatically, you have to write checks for somebody who doesn't do stuff. I mean, I want him to take care of her to the point he can. That'd be sweet. It's a charitable act, but it is not a biblical mandate. God did not tell her that he was to furnish her a house. That's an absolute load of religious crap. That's what that is. Man, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but some of you people are oversaved. This is the Ramsey Show.

When you're tired of feeling stuck with money, there's just one solution. To get different results, you have to do something different. No one accidentally wins with money. You have to have a game plan, and that begins with our get started assessment. Go to ramsey solutions. Com/start, answer some questions, and we'll show you what steps to take next. Don't stay stuck. Take control of your money starting today. Go with ramsey solutions. Com/start. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Nathan and Brittany are with us. Hey, guys, how are you? Doing well. How are you doing? Better than we deserve. Where do you guys live? Chattanooga. All right, just down the road. Well, welcome to Nashville. How much debt have you two paid off? 73,000. $5,545. Excellent. How long did that take? About 14 months. Good for you. And your range of income during that time? Eighty to about $100,000. Cool. What do you all do for a living? I'm a first-grade teacher.

I'm a mental health therapist, and I direct a college counseling center for a local college.

Oh, excellent. Very good. What debt was the 74 grand? It was taxes. It was a car, credit cards. I had student loans? Student loans. Yeah. You all were normal. Yeah, very normal. Yeah, normal sucks. Yeah. It did. What happened 14 months ago? What was your wake-up call? What was your something's got to change moment? Yeah. Well, we went through Financial Peace University whenever we got married five years ago, and we were Ramsey-ish for about three and a half years and paid off only $30,000 of debt. So you flunked? Yes, very much so. Then 14 months ago, we owed in taxes for the first time and had to get new tires on our car within a couple of days of each other. We both felt like we got punched because we had a bunch of bills, we had student loans, credit cards, and now we had to get new tires and pay the IRS, which is a scary feeling. It's interesting that owing the IRS suddenly like that is like 100X more drama than owing the exact same amount to a credit card company. Yes, it was scary. They're just like... Yeah, and with good reason, Because they're scary people.

But wow, there is something that puts a lump in your throat, a knot in the stomach, and you got, Okay, this has got to stop. We got to get that old financial peacebook back out, and this time we're doing it. Exactly. Is that what it sounded like? Yeah. I started working at my school. We have an opportunity to work the late stay program, and so I started working from 07: 00 AM to 06: 00 PM every day. He started door-dashing. He started teaching classes. Any extra that we could do? We were trying to do. We cut up our credit cards, the whole nine yards. Yeah, it got very serious. Got on a budget. We were on a budget, but we started actually following the budget. Oh, yeah. Actually doing it. Exactly.

See, here's what I want people to hear. You knew the plan. You said you then you go from ish to rr. That R, that Ramsey was like, rr. It's a guttural a sound. What were, beyond working hard, what were some of the communication changes in order to actually finally go, We're doing this thing.

Yeah, we had to quit making excuses. Our date nights look a lot different.

Friday nights, we were having cheap pizza, watching Smart Money Happy Hour at home.

Just Yeah, the communication, we began to more just breathe and communicate Ramsey. Yeah, and we communicated about everything. People in our lives would be like, You're talking about buying gum? But it'd be like, No, we're communicating about everything, saying, This is where our budget's going. Is it okay that we put this in the miscellaneous category because it came up unexpectedly? Yeah, we just communicated about every little thing.

That's awesome.

Glad the wake-up call was something small. Yeah, us too. Knockout. Us too. Why? So your core reason was to get away from that fear. That's what drove you, that moment. I don't ever want to feel like this again. Yeah, and to change our generation that comes after us. That's the more noble step. Once you get past the fear, you're like, Okay, we're going to change the family tree. Yeah, we never want our kids to experience that. The fear motivated us, but then also, we're both Christians.

Once we began getting on that path, it wasn't easy.

It felt like spiritual warfare at times. Things kept on coming up, coming up, coming up. But we realized we also want to use our finances to honor God and steward what we've been given well. Good for you guys. Well done. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? Other than getting to Brittany in their life, because I could take an hour and talk about how incredible that she is. But other than that, because I've got her and that's my step. But I would say, know your why, just tying it back into that. For ours was for giving praise to the Lord Jesus. Yeah, and intentionality, because as we said, it took us three and a half years to pay off 30,000, and then we paid off 73,000 in 14 months. In 14 months, yeah. It It's just funny how we had so many people tell us while we were on this journey, Oh, I just wish we could do that. I wish we could do that. It's like, Well, you can't. All you have to do is make the hard choices because it is hard. It's not an easy thing.

It was the hardest season we've had so far, but the intention functionality is what changed it. If we can do it, anyone can. Deloney says, Choose your hard. I mean, it's hard to owe the IRS money and not be able to put your tires on your car. That's hard. But there's also the hard of, I'm going to sacrifice so I don't ever have to face that again. That's a better hard to choose. Let's choose that one. That's the one you chose the second time. Exactly. Good job, you all. Well done. Very, very, very well done. What was the hardest part? What was the biggest fight you had while you were doing this 14 months? The hardest part was just making sure that we were both serious at the same time because it is hard, and it's really nice to do this with somebody to keep you accountable. When I would say, I think we should use the budget for this, or he would say that we should use the budget for this, it was just hard sometimes getting on the same page. It was really easy to have one person say, Well, why not for this?

Also, no spend months are hard. Those are really, really hard. Just making sure we would get on the same page. Rachel Cruz talks about, I'm a spontaneous giver.

She says that in her book, Know yourself, know your money.

For me, I had to be like, No, I can't give We gave to our church, obviously. That was our plan to giving. But for me, I had to keep that long, distant goal of I want to be able to live and give like no one else. Yeah. Right now, I'm going to not do the spontaneous. Because everything's got to be dialed into a plan. Our period of time here with this intensity. Well done, you guys. Proud of you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Who was cheering you on? We had a lot of good cheerleaders in our life, but our main ones are here today. We have my parents. As I said, my dad, he had us do Financial Peace University whenever we first got married. Then my mom, she is an avid couponer, and so we haven't paid for toiletries or anything like that because of her. Then also, there were some times that we'd come home from work and our fridge would be full of groceries because she was just being a great blessing. Then my best friend, Megan, is here, and she has just been the ultimate cheerleader. Every little thing, she'd be like, You paid off $50.

Yeah, that's awesome. Just cheering every little step along the way. Just truly done. A great cheerleader. Very cool. Good job, you guys. You surround yourself with people that love you and support you, and that instead of a bunch of Debbie Downers around you. That's very smart. Very smart. Well done. Good stuff. Good stuff. Poor Debbie and poor Karen. They've just gotten messed over, haven't they?

Yes, absolutely.

Oh, my gosh. Wow. Way to go, you Very, very cool. Good stuff. Nathan and Brittany from Chattanooga, $74,000 paid off in 14 months, making 80 to 100. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free 3, 2, 1.

We're dead free.

That is how it's done. Wow. Ken, if we can ever solve the formula to get people to be intense automatically while they're in the class, sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. But if we can solve that formula and not have that three and a half year gap of ish before something has to come along and punch you in the gut to get you awake, we will have hit a milestone. That will be huge because the number of people, the number of you listening out there right now, you listen to this stuff, but you don't do Yeah.

Here's the thing. I'm just sitting here watching this, and those of you that are listening, you could hear it in Nathan. Nathan is this very nice, soft-spoken young man, and he just let it rip. What's fun about watching that, and there's no judging whether you're louder than the next deck free screamer, but there's something emotional there. To your point, Dave, if you can figure out how good it's going to feel in that class, and you see what it feels like, that's the idea, is bottling that and going, Why would I want to delay that? I want to get through this now and experience what's on the other side of it. Yeah.

Fantastic. Step away from the ish.

Right. That's right.

Don't do the ish. Back away. Don't do the ish. Don't do it.

Just cannon ball.

Don't do it. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, do you ever feel like you're doing everything right with money but still stuck? I was you, in debt, running hard, but taking three steps forward and two steps back. Turns out it's not the numbers. It's the fact that changing our ways with money is emotional. That's why I wrote my brand new book, What No One Tells You About Money, to help you push past what's really been sabotaging your progress so you can finally win. You can pre order now and score over $100 in free bonus items. But only if you order by January fifth, go to ramsey solutions. Com/store today. Our scripture of the day, Philippians 2: 14-15, Do everything without grumbling or arguing so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky. Thomas Sowell said, There has now been created a world in which the success of others is a grievance rather than an example. Wow. Javier is with us in Denver. Hey, Javier, what's up?

Hey there, Dave. To get straight to the point, sir, thanks for picking up on my call. My dad wants to get a key lock, but he wants me to cosign because I don't think he can get it on his own. The key lock is 55,11% interest. I'm just wondering what I should do.

Well, you know what you should do. You just don't know how to tell your dad no.

Yeah, I guess so.

How old are you?

I want to help. I'm 23.

Why in the world does a father need a 23-year-old to sign a heloq, cosign a heloq with him? He must really be a mess.

From the outside looking in, I can probably- Listen, if he needs a cosigner that's a 23-year-old, he's made a mess.

Otherwise, he'll be able to get it on his own.

Roger Yeah.

Now, play this out. Let's say you do this, and he keeps making a mess of his life, which he already has. You acknowledge that. What does that do to you and your personal finances, and what does it do to your relationship?

Yeah, it'll affect it in a negative way.

Absolutely, young man. So we're not trying to be unkind. We're trying to save you from getting pulled into this mess.

And he pulled into this mess. Save him from some grief. What does he want the heelock for? Do you know?

Yes, sir. He owns a towing company, and I work for the towing company. He wants the heelock so that we can get insurance for the tow trucks. He also wants it to pay off a loan and some credit cards. That's whatever he wants it for.

Why is the tow truck company not making money?

Well, tow truck company was making money, but the insurance payment is what's a lot.

It's not making enough to pay its own insurance payment.

It seems to be that way. Yes.

One of the expenses of operating a tow truck company is having insurance, and it's not making a profit enough to even... Or not making enough revenue to even pay these expenses is what you're telling me.

Yeah, I guess so.

No, I mean, really. If the company was making money, he'd have the money, right?

Yeah.

How much is the insurance payment? Do you know?

He wants to do a down payment on the insurance for 7,000. I think I asked him what it would be annually. If he can just do an annual payment, maybe 35,000.

You know what the gross revenues of your company is?

No, sir, I don't. I don't know what the gross revenues are.

How many trucks are you all running?

We run two. I run one, and then he runs another one. One of our drivers runs the other one, and then my dad works a full-time job. Okay.

The guy that trained me said that financial problems are not the problem, they're the symptom. The problem of not being able to pay the insurance and having run the credit card up on the tow truck business is that the tow truck business is not profitable enough. That's the problem. That doesn't get better with a loan. It worse with a loan. You follow me? Understood. What this is, is if I were coaching your dad as a small business guy, which we coach small business guys all the time, I would tell him, Let's work on the business and fix the business problem. What do we do to increase our revenues, drop our expenses? Because he's not making enough. He's not making enough to pay his own insurance. So it may be that they need to get out of the tow truck business because it's not even his real job. It's It's yours, but it's not his, and you can get another job. We got to fix the business to where the business is profitable, because let's say the business had $50,000 cash in the bank because it was making so stinking much money. You and I wouldn't be on the phone, Javier.

Yeah, that makes complete sense. Yeah. So the business has got issues. It's got problems. And your dad's not a bad guy. He's a hard working dude. He's just trying to figure this out. But I'm coaching him through you right now. And my coaching to him is Let's fix the business problem, not borrow and cover up the business problem and let the business problem continue because the borrowing is going to make it worse. So no, honey, you don't need to cosign for a heelock. Your dad doesn't need to take out a heelock. He needs to get above this problem and solve it for the tow truck business or get out of the tow truck business. But don't go borrow on your home, sir, to pay your insurance when your tow trucks aren't making enough to pay their own insurance. That's a bad plan for your dad.

Such wisdom. I hope people that are out there that may be struggling in a small business or a side hustle, you got to know when to fold them. You've got to know. If you can't fix that business, go ahead and shut the business down. Don't keep digging a deeper hole and He's going to fund it personally through debt. We see this a lot, and this breaks people. It breaks them.

Here's the thing. This dad, I'm going to give him a benefit of doubt. His son is driving the trucks. It's his side hustle. Dad's side hustle, but his son's job. That's right. He's trying to keep this alive for his kid. I think that's right. I think that's right. That's a bad play, too. It's not a good play. Let's either get this thing working or let's fold it up and sell the trucks.

You've done this way longer than I have, how do you fight that real emotion? Because that emotion is so strong to fight, to stay, to try to keep bailing water out of the boat. How do you conquer that?

I just use Henry Cloud's necessary endings rule, and that is when I don't have any real facts in front of me that indicate that there's a way through this, then I'm done. But if I've got a fact, and if I try these three things and it works, I'll be okay, then I got to go try those three things before I give up. But if Everything I played, and I don't see a way around other than borrowing and making it worse, then it's time to fold, time to close up, sell the trucks. Paul's with us in Canada. Hi, Paul. Welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hi, Dave and Ken.

How are you guys? Better than we deserve. How can we help, sir?

Well, here's my situation. I'm sitting here with my wife, and we stole our house two years ago. We were in some pretty deep debt, and we're in our mid to late 50s.

Are you out of debt now?

We are 100% out of debt. We have some credit card, a little bit of credit card debt, nothing too dramatic.

That would be not 100% out of debt.

Well, okay, two grand and 1,500.

Okay, so you still hadn't learned your lesson. Okay.

Okay.

You sold your house to get out of debt. You're still playing footsy with these plastics. Okay.

True. We own our vehicles.

We don't owe anybody anything. For a run-out time, Paul, what's your question?

First of all, I'm actually glad that Ken is online there with you guys because it's direction right now. We have about 50,000, just under 50 grand in the bank right now. My wife wants to buy another house, and I don't.

Why? Why don't you want to?

Well, I know the stress that I was under when we did own a house making sure that the- You guys have income?

Pardon me? You have income?

My wife has income. I'm actually injured right now. I'm off work until the new year. I'm only working part-time.

Okay. Well, when you're working and your income are there, if you take out a 15-year fixed rate loan where the payment is no more than a fourth of your take home pay, you're 100% debt free. You've cut up the stupid butt credit cards and you have an emergency fund in place, there shouldn't be any stress. Those numbers there don't give you stress. And you buy a home that you can afford. I think before you had a home you couldn't afford, and that's where the stress came from. So owning a home is a good thing. Owning a home is not necessarily stressful. Paying too much and spending more than I have on a home, that's what causes stress. That puts us hour of the Ramsey Show in the Books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.