Transcript of Building Wealth Is About More Than Just Math

Hey, guys. Black Friday Week is here with five days of deals starting at just $12. Go to ramseysolutions. Com/store to check them out. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Marta is with us to start this hour. Marta is in Portland, Oregon. Hi, Marta. How are you?

Hi, Dave. I'm doing Hi. Good. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

What's up?

I am 57 years old. I've been married for 33 years, and I've never managed our joint financials. But I find myself that that was a big mistake on my part, and I need help with trying to figure out how to sort out my finances. I have a house that's in my name, and my husband has gambling problems that I just discovered, and it's been snowballing since I started discovering the problems. I signed a heat lock not knowing what I actually was signing. I owe $90,000 of that and haven't done taxes for four years. I know that at least I owe $10,000 out of to the IRS on top of everything else I bought because he was taking money of my retirement without my knowledge. And so that's going to come down the pipe for me. And I'm just overwhelmed about how to get things done.

How did you find out?

I found out a letter because he handled the mail, he handled everything. I opened a letter from Fidelity and found out that he had borrowed money from there, and I confronted them about it. And that was last year. He said he was paying, and he did pay it, and I told him not to take any more money. But he continued to do that. Not only that, but he had taken money prior years, and he never told me that. He's got 10 counts because he also stole money from a nonprofit that he was the treasurer.

Are you still together?

Unfortunately, yes, because People say I'm too nice. Getting a divorce is going to be very expensive, and so I'm trying to get my finances in order. He's just delusional.

He's in the middle of the world. So are you just biding your time? Is that what that amounts to? You're trying to get your finances together so that you can get out of this marriage, or are you guys going to counseling to see if you can solve it?

Oh, no. We did counseling, and he was not there. I mean, I've been begging him to do things, and he did not.

Okay, so let me make sure I understand where you are then, hon. I'm sorry. What a heartbreak. Yeah, you don't know what's going on, and that's terrifying. You got 33 year marriage is ending, and that's terrifying. Am I understanding you correctly to say you are saying you're going to end this?

I am, yes. I'm done with it. Okay. He's not. He thinks he's still living in the house.

Well, it's not up to him. You In Oregon, you can file for divorce. You're allowed to do that.

Right, yeah.

I just can't. Do you work outside the home?

Oh, yeah. I'm a nurse, so I- Where does the money go that you make? Well, it was going to a In my current account, I finally- Okay, so you changed it.

It's going into your name now? Yes. Good. How much is in that account?

Right now, there's about $11,000.

When When you hang up the phone, I want you to call a divorce attorney and schedule an appointment for tomorrow.

Mm-hmm.

Please. You keep thinking you're going to wake up and this is all a bad dream. I'm your old ugly brother that's telling you it's not. It's your reality, and it's unbelievably sad, it's unbelievably scary, but it's going to get worse every Every moment that you don't deal with this. You do not have to do anything except pay a retainer, get a lawyer, and file for divorce right now.

Okay. I did see one, and I At the time, I didn't even have the money for the retainer.

Now you do?

Yeah. Okay.

Is that the one you're going to use?

I don't know yet. I only saw one, and he's telling me he's going to fight it.

I care what he thinks. He no longer has a vote. Yeah. He gave that up when he stole money from a nonprofit, when he stole money from his wife, when he had her sign documents that she didn't know what she was signing. This is a full, raging lunatic addict who has no boundaries, and he's going to burn the house down around you if you stand there and watch it and ignore the smoke. Please, darling, for your sake, while there's There's still something left. Get an attorney and get him around the throat and shut down all of the financials. Shut down everything. He has no concept of anything. Move it all out from under his care until an attorney until his attorney and the court makes you put it back. It's time for you to get very aggressive to try to salvage what you can for the next chapter of your life, hon.

Marta, who knows about this? Are you going through this alone, or do you have some folks around you?

Oh, no. I have friends. I'm going to counseling my kids now, but he took, what, $60,000 from my son who's married, has two babies, saying he was going to pay it back. He had a business that went bankrupt, and I'm just…

Yeah, you got to separate yourself.

This has been done a long time, and you've ignored it thinking it was going It's going to get better, hon, because you're a sweet person. But listen, you're killing yourself here, okay? Please, please deal with this. Okay. Now, this is your big brother that loves you talking, okay? Do it now. Okay. Quit screwing around with this. If he suddenly gets healed, gets lightning bolts struck from heaven and changes, we can always come back and talk about that later. But right now, everything you have told me in the last few minutes screams emergency.

Yeah, well, he thinks he's doing better, but-Honey, I don't care what he thinks.

He lost his vote.

And there's no proof of that.

Every time you tell me something about him, it's where he stole something. Or took something. It's your entire description of your husband. He's a raging gambling addict, and there's no fix for that. We work with addicts all the time. The only fix for that is to break the cycle. This guy is not interested in breaking the cycle. Addicks can get better, but 100% of addicts are master manipulators, and they are master liars. He'll make you think this is your fault.

Oh, yeah. He does make me think that.

That's part of the addiction, okay? There's only one thing you can do with this, and that's get distance. Financial distance, physical distance, housing distance. Call that attorney back or call an attorney today, and please, darling, take action on this. It's not going to get better. This guy's an abuser. Well, I'm so sorry. What a heartbreaking thing to deal with. That's tough. Fastest growing addiction in North America Today, online porn, second fastest growing addiction, gambling. We're seeing in our financial counseling offices those two things destroying more families than anything else. Thank you to the internet. This is the Ramsey Show. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 different answers. Economic growth or a recession. Business taxes will go up or down. Ai will help us work or it will replace us all. But there's no such thing as a crystal ball. That's why more than 40,000 businesses have future proofed themselves with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud enterprise resource planning system. Ramsey Solutions uses NetSuite, and you should, too. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.

With one unified business management suite, there's only one source of truth for the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. Netsuite's real-time insights and forecasting help you see into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can spend less time looking backward and more time focusing on what's next. Speaking of what's next, download the CFO's guide Get to AI and machine learning at netsuite. Com/ramsey. It's free at netsuite. Com/ramsey. Black Friday Week is in full swing at Ramsey Solutions. We've got life-changing gifts for the people you love all on sale. Our best-selling books like the Total Money Makeover, Baby Steps Millionaires, Own Your Past, Change Your Future, all only $12 each. And of course, the Total Money Makeover is more than a book. All these books are, they're a life-changing gift. We hear it all the time. Millions of people have changed their lives because of a Dr. John Deloney book, or a Total Money Makeover book, or a Jade Walsh book like Money's Not A Math Problem. Jade and her husband paid off over $460,000 in debt. A lot of it had to do with shifting their mindset about money.

Money is not a math problem is what that's about. It's one of our quick reads. Rachel's Wallets, John's Questions for Human Cards. Man, it's all there. Check it all out. Black Friday deals Abound at ramsey solutions. Com/store. If you're listening on YouTube or the podcast, you can click the link in the description and go straight there. Paula is in Canada. Hi, Paula. Welcome to the Ramsey Thank you very much. Sure. What's up?

I have a question about adult children and financially helping them out, what my obligation is, because I hear lots of people trying to help out with weddings or any education and that thing. I'm at a point in my life now where financially I can do it, but am I obliged to do it when they've shown that they aren't financially responsible themselves? No. How do I make it fair when there's five of them?

Who would oblige? You mean morally or spiritually obliged or culturally obliged? I mean, who obliges you?

Well, when they're at a point where they're having babies and getting there. You spend all your time- I know what you're talking about.

I'm asking, you said, Am I forced? Obliged is a sweet way. Am I required? Is what you're saying. Am I required? Who Who requires it?

I guess I feel that they require it when it comes to fairness.

Well, that would be called entitlement. That would not be called... Matter of fact, Paula, I have a new requirement. You need to send me some money. Here's my address. Who gives a crap what someone else requires, right?

Who is it that wants it and what do they want?

I don't know if they want it as far as trying to treat them fairly. When there's five of them in one seat that I've spent money on one or the other, trying to help them out or spending money on weddings or having babies. And then the other ones think, Well, why isn't she giving me money or why isn't she buying me a gift? And I'm at a point in my life where I can do it, but I also want to be able to travel and enjoy my retirement and that thing, and I don't know how to make it fair between the five of them.

So I do think that that's an interesting question. I've got two kids, and it would be strange of me if both were good kids, if I paid for one wedding but didn't pay for the other. I could see why they would say, Well, what's the difference? You've got five kids. That's a lot more. Is there something going on that's making you say, For child number one, I'll do this, but for child number two, I won't, and here's why. Is it a behavior thing? I think so, because one of my children just had a baby, and another one is having a baby again soon.

I spent all sorts of money on one for a wedding, but not the other. Why?

We're saying why not the other?

Right. One of my children is financially being irresponsible, and I do want to help them, but in the other sense, can I help them with stipulations? I don't want to give you cash because you're going to waste it.

Back to Jade's question, because I'm not sure I heard the answer. If you paid for one wedding, but you didn't pay for the other, why? You decided that. Was the one that you didn't pay for being your responsible, and so didn't want to fund it? What was the reason for the differences?

I think it was more of some of them have had the big splashy weddings, and then others of them haven't chosen to have the big splashy weddings.

So do I-So they wanted the money instead?

Yes, exactly. Okay.

All right. You felt like paying for the wedding was okay, but you didn't want to necessarily be to fund everybody the same amount?

Or how do you make it equal? If I'm spending $5,000 on one wedding, do I- Well, if it's your money, I think you get to set the premise if you say, Okay, for each of you, this is the budget, and that's what it is, and you make it fair.

My point is, they don't get to decide what you give, you get to decide it.

Okay.

But if you've already gone down the road- I'm stretched between two different things in I don't know exactly where to land.

We told our kids growing up, there is no fair. Fair is where the tilta world is and the cotton candy is. We're not socialists, we're capitalists. There's not fair. That's how it works. Things don't work out. That's just the way it is. I don't get to decide what life treats you fair or doesn't treat you fair, but fair is a joke. Fair is only by communist college professors. There's no fair. Welcome to the real world. Now, on one sense, I don't have to do it equal because our family is not socialist. On the other sense, I don't want to scar one of them and make them think there is a... Unless I'm refusing to fund their misbehavior, I mean, if one of them has a splashy wedding and one of them doesn't, and the one that doesn't is doing heroin, I don't need to give them the same amount of money. Well, that's not fair. I don't care. I'm not going to fund misbehavior. But on the other hand, if there's no differences in their behaviors, it feels a little It's weird that they're not getting the same amount of money. No, you're not obligated, but I'm just thinking through with you the emotional and the relational parts of the discussion.

You are not obliged, period. It's your money. You get to decide. I don't get to tell you what to do with it. They don't get to tell you what to do with it. You can just look at someone and say no, and no is a complete sentence. But from a relational standpoint, if there's not a reason for different differentiating, that would give me as a dad, concern. I can see how that would cause you a problem. If there's a reason, like a misbehavior for differentiating, I can lean into that real easily.

I do think it's fair to say, let's say you have $10,000 to put towards a wedding. I think it's fair to say, I have $10,000 for your wedding. But if one of them says, I don't want the wedding, I just want the $10,000. I think it's fair to say, No, the $10,000 is for the wedding.

Right. I mean- Those stipulations are okay.

Well, in this case, especially since you're saying some of them are misbehaving with money, you giving them $10,000 is them saying, Well, I'm going to do whatever I want with this money. To your point, if they're doing misbehavior things, then that's not the gift you wanted it to be.

No, it magnifies their stupidity when you give them money. It does for all of us. Anybody that gets money, it magnifies who you are, good and bad. When you put some zeros on the end of that, you're doing that. I don't know. I think one of the things we've to do in the Ramsey household, and it's helped, because I am convinced, my wife and I were talking about this the other day, and it's not because my kids are bad, they're excellent kids. But I think adult children is a weird phrase to start with. That's like an oxymoronic I wish to start with. But raising adult children is the hardest phase of parenting. It was much easier when they were under my control and I could just tell them what to freaking do. It was a lot easier. Now they have these ideas of their own stuff. I taught them to think and damned if they didn't. Oh, my God, it's so hard. It's a difficult time emotionally in that state for a lot of parents, Paula. But I think if you're going to differentiate For a reason, one of the things we've done a really good job about is we just communicate.

We just say there's a difference here and here's why. You know what? That lets all the air out of it. You say it in front of the whole family. You can put everybody in a room and go, This is what we're doing. It's Thanksgiving, by the way, and here's what we're doing. It clears the air. I remember Rachel had her first big book coming out, and we know what personalities make on a big book. We were at Thanksgiving, and I said, Hey, everybody, we're going to stop just a second here. They're all in their 20s, and I'm like, Rachel's getting ready to have a great year from some hard work she's done. Some of your years aren't going to be as great because you haven't done that same exact work. You get the decision right now to decide whether to be jealous and petty or whether to congratulate your sister and cheer her on. To their credit, once you said it out loud, they immediately became cheerleaders. But it took the air out of the balloon of jealousy once you say it out loud. It's harder to do it once somebody said it out loud.

This is The Ramsey Show. I've been doing this show for over 30 and some of the saddest calls I have taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, Oh, it's terrible.

People that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly, and they don't have life insurance.

When you have to think through, how am I going to pay my bills in the middle- How am I going to eat next week? Yeah, in the middle of all that grief, it's terrible. Life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive.

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It doesn't cost much because Xander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here. You got to say it out loud, and you got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of a stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282, or go to zander. Com. Jade Walsh, number one best-selling author and Ramsey personality, is my co-host. It's that time of year. In a few weeks, we're going to be doing a special Giving Generosity Edition of the Ramsey Show. It's one of my favorite shows because we want to teach you to live like no one else so that later you can give like no one else. Here's the deal. Maybe you've been the person that was generous and you got to see someone's face and life changed. Maybe you were on the receiving end of the generosity, and you want to tell that story. Whether you know the person that gave or whether it was an anonymous gift, we don't care.

We want to encourage generosity by telling great generosity stories. So jump on to ramsey solutions. Com/ask. Put giving in the subject line. That's how you get on the radio show. If If you want to leave a message there. And you put giving on the subject line. We'll get you on the podcast, the YouTube show, when we're doing the Giving Show. We do this every Christmas time. It's one of our most popular shows. People love it because it reminds us how wonderful human beings can be out there, and often are. It's coming up on December 18th, so send us your giving story starting today so you can live like no one else. So later you can give like no one else. Ramseysolutions. Com/ask. Put giving in the subject line. Hannah's in Columbia, South Carolina. Hi, Hannah. What's up?

Hi, Dave. Hi, Jade. I'm so excited to talk to you guys.

You, too. How can we help?

Okay, my question is, I have been listening to you guys for about two or three months, and I'm really gunko. My husband and I are almost a baby steps four, five, and six, and I know you guys say to be intentional in those and do them together. So when you're in those steps, why should my husband and I not put extra money into an investment that has a 12% return instead of paying off our house that has an interest rate of 2.5?

It's a great math question, and the reason is more than math. We studied made 10,167 millionaires. Ask them, How did you become a millionaire? Did you inherit the money? Did you win the lotto? Are you a country music star? Did you save and invest? How did you do it? What did you do? What's your age? What's your income? What's your career? We could find some correlations. Again, 10,000 people is enough to study to draw some real air tight research-based conclusions. We got a lot of wonderful data from that. In other words, facts. Here's what's interesting. The number of those millionaires that said, I became a millionaire because I borrowed on my home at a lesser interest rate so that I could invest more, which is effectively what you're talking about doing. You're not borrowing on it, but you're not paying it off, which is the same thing. The number of them that said, I delayed paying off home so that I could invest more, and that's how I became a millionaire. You know how many of them it was out of 10,000?

Not very many.

Zero. We never had one tell us that. But that's how they became a millionaire was that they leveraged their home into investments. Isn't that interesting? And yet the math that you bring up is actually accurate. You can borrow money or you might have a mortgage at 3% and you can make 10, 12, maybe 14%. In the last 12 months, you can make 30% on an S&P, which is not normal. But you're 12%, I don't argue with it all. The difference is that you're going to be paying taxes on the money unless you're investing it into a Roth. You've also taken more risk because you're home. So something happens to people when they get their home paid off. The The freedom that they sense in their relationships and their careers causes them to prosper more and faster than the difference in the interest rates. That's the only explanation I've got for it. I will tell you this, here's an interesting thing you can do. Go ahead and pay off your house, and if you hate it, just go get another mortgage.

That's where I am. I really want to do that, but I'm also married to an accountant who says... He knows the math, and he's explaining it to me, and I get it, and I see it. Here's the problem.

Let me submit to him that he's doing a naive, primitive, incomplete math formula. Because his math formula does not include risk, and his math formula does not include taxes. If he can quantify the risk exactly and put it into a math formula, he's a better guy than I am, and I'm a math nerd from now on. But it is a real risk because we can all honestly say, The more debt you have, the more risk you have. Agreed? Yes. To not mathematically factor that into his formula makes his formula naive and incomplete. I don't care if he's an accountant. He's wrong. Right. That's the thing. Now, how do you convince him of that? I don't know. That's a different story. You've been convincing him he's wrong since you got married, so maybe you can work on it.

Yeah. My biggest question for him would be, what is his ultimate goal, and why are you guys doing this?

His ultimate goal is build wealth, and he thinks he's leveraging the money. Am I right?

Yes, you are right.

But I guess my question is, let's say he says, My goal is to have $8 million. Is it a time frame? Is it a time frame he's so caught up on, or is there a way that you can present that argument and say, Hey, we can still get there. We're just going there in this order, and this is going to give me more peace? Do you see what I'm saying?

Hannah, he was trained by the same people I was trained by. My finance professor was broke. What's wrong with that picture? A broke finance professor is like a shop teacher with missing fingers. My grandpa was not broke, and he was also an accountant. The reason he was not broke, though, is he avoided debt like the plague because he was a child of the Great Depression. He had no debt, no debt, no debt, no debt, no way, no debt. When I started going in debt like a crazy man to buy houses in my 20s, he said, I'm going to throw you out of the family. You couldn't be one of ours. You're too dumb. He didn't say that, but he made me feel that. There you go. But I mean, because it's just so polar opposite of what that generation that had common sense lived. The problem, Hannah, is your husband was trained by a broke finance professor to believe an incomplete, inaccurate math formula. You can play this back for him. Jay, it's an interesting conversation because we get this question all the time, once a week, right? When I first started this journey, this journey being common sense money.

I've got a finance degree. I've got letters and licenses of all kinds after my name that says I'm supposed to know something about money, but I'm 28 years old and I'm bankrupt because I borrowed two dead gun much money and I'm an idiot. I got the opportunity to start over. My wife would have left, but she didn't have a car. I mean, it was awful, horrible. I was a brand new Christian. I started learning from this guy named Larry Burkett that the Bible had financial principles. I read in there, The borrower is slave to the lender. Then I read in there, he who is impulsive exaltss folly. Then I read in there, the blessings and cursings to the house of Israel as they cross the Jordan after Moses has led them in the wilderness. The blessings are, you will You will be so wealthy, you will be a lender. The cursings are, you will be a borrower. Every single thing in scripture that I was reading as a brand new believer was negative about debt. And yet my intellect and academics all told me that to borrow money like her husband, the accountant. I struggled with exactly the same thing.

But I made the decision in those days on the basis of faith. I just said, okay, I tried it the academic way, I went broke. I'm going to try this Bible stuff. It's common sense. Now, years later, I discover, oh, they left out risk. They let the math formulas incomplete. 100%. These academics aren't so dadgum smart after all. Who knew? This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, you guys. I'm not a fan of the big banks, and you probably already know which ones I mean. But I do like credit unions because they're nonprofit organizations that focus on They're members. I'm proud to endorse Fairwinds Credit Union because they share the Ramsey mission of helping people get out of debt and live generously. In fact, they design products to help keep you from going into debt in the first place. Fairwinds has been in business for over 75 years, and they serve hundreds of thousands of members worldwide. You can feel secure because your deposits are federally insured by the NCUA up to $250,000. It's easy to join, and Fairwinds partners with more than 5,000 credit union locations around the country, so you can bank in person wherever you live.

But if you prefer the online experience, you can log on to Fairwinds and do anything you could do at a physical location. Go to fairwinds. Org/ramsey to learn more. And while you're there, look at the combined mind checking and savings account bundle they created just for Ramsey fans to help you take control of your finances. That's Fairwinds, F-A-I-R-W-I-N-D-S. Org. Ramsci. Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality is my co-host today. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. The Ramsey Show, Question of the Day, is brought to you by YreFi. If you've made student loan mistakes with zeros on the end? Well, we're not judging you. We're here to help you, and we're saying you need to do something about it. Contact Yrefi if you have a defaulted private student loan. They'll reset the whole thing. It's unbelievable what they can do for you. Go to Yrefy. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y. Com/ramsey. Might not be in all states.

All right. Today's question comes from Brody in Maryland. He says, Is it unfair for me to feel angry that my wife wants a bigger house. We bought a 1400 square foot house last April. I sold all four of my investment properties that I worked very hard for to completely pay off our debt, including the new house. Our house is a three bedroom, two bath ranch with a backyard on a quiet street, and it's in a good school district. So much sacrifice and saving went into making this happen. Now she wants a bigger house, even though she said she wanted this particular house before we put the offer in. I don't see how I make this happen without going into debt again, and I will not go back into debt. This is juicy. Listen, here's the thing. I do think that some people's personalities, because you don't talk about any type of pay raise or situation where you guys's lifestyle has changed drastically. But I do think there are some people that the goalpost is constantly moving. It's like, If I just get this, I'll be happy. And then they get that thing, and they're not happy.

Or, If I just get this, I'll be content. And then it happens, and they're not content because things don't make you happy and things don't make you content. I think that they're fun, but they don't fill that void.

You can buy fun, but you can't buy happiness.

Yeah, and you can't buy contentment. If you're on social media, what she might be every single day scrolling through and looking at what the influences are doing and looking at what their friend's houses or if she's spending all night watching HGTV. It is very difficult for some people to go, Well, that's them, and that's okay. My Life is fine. Truly, I think that that's what this is. I think she's got a contentment issue.

Exactly. Sidebar, what you stated there, I just saw an article the other day that the more hours you spend on social media, the There's a direct correlation to the more credit card debt you have.

Oh, really? I'd love to see that. I know there is.

And the more overspending you do. Because I do it and I have the money, but I'm looking at some gun thing, and I'm like, Oh, I need one of those. But I had stayed off of that. You never saw it. I wouldn't even going to know when it was there. I know other people do it, and I teach this crap. You know what I mean? It's like, golly, if I'm doing it, it's got to be. Okay, here's what happened, Brody. You guys need to reset your marriage relationship. This is not about a 1,400-square-foot house, and it's not about you being angry. You are acting like the daddy and she's acting like daddy's little princess. Daddy sold everything and did everything and sacrificed and worked his fingers to the bone, and what did he get? Bony fingers. He got a house, and he's real proud of the house. Now she walks in and goes, Yeah, but there's the wallpaper. We need to reset this, and instead, let's be two grownups. The conversation I'm going to have is, and actually, we had it at our house, but in a little different way when we were about Charles' age, probably.

I'll tell you about ours in a second. But the conversation I'm going to have is, Okay, we are going to get aligned on our goals. My goal is not to perpetually make an unhappy person happy. I am not going to get on that treadmill. We, you're a grown woman. I'm a grown man. We're going to sit down together and here's one of mine, I don't borrow money. Period. Here's another one of mine. I like to provide nice things for my wife. Here's another one of mine. These are what you might say, Brody. She's saying, Well, I want a house as nice as my friends. Okay, what can we do to get that? You don't work. You could work. You don't work much. You could work more. You could quit coach bagging it, and we might save that money towards a house. I mean, what are we going to do as two grown up people to responsibly Because I'm all in. I put all my chips on the table. I sold off everything I had to buy this house for us. What you did, though, was you did that without her. She was not aligned to that decision.

She was giving you lip service, but this was not her idea. It was yours. Now you're surprised that she's unhappy of your plan that did not include her. This is like, I got to tell you, you know what? About 10 I've been married 43 years, about 10 years into marriage, I don't buy Sharon jewelry anymore that she hasn't seen.

Tell us why.

Because I picked out ugly crap.

I know.

According to her. But I spent a lot of my beautiful money on her ugly crap. Then she's like, Oh, I wouldn't about that. I'm like, Oh, jeez. Well, let's just not do that again. I don't mind if Sharon has… I mean, she's got earrings the size of a headlight, but she picked them out. Then she says they're heavy. They're that big. I'm like, That's ridiculous. It's a good problem to have, Sharon. Okay, just get your earlobes and do some earlobe lifts. Start doing some workouts there in the gym because you picked them out. See, that's the difference. This girl's not involved in this.

Well, yeah, you could tell by the language, I sold all of my investment properties.

So much sacrifice.

Yeah, he's the only one. He feels like he's the only one sacrificing. You can tell by the language whether- But it's a paternal thing rather than an equal thing.

Yeah, you can hear it. I think we got to reset and go, We're not doing anywhere from here. We're making any major decisions without both of us involved. I learned that after I went broke because I made a lot of decisions that were stupid without talking to my wife. Proverbs 31 says, Who can find a virtuous wife for her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her. Here's my favorite part, he will have no lack of gain. It's not in the Bible, but it might be in one version like Second Hesitations. Right after no lack of gain, she no longer She says, I told you so.

I like being able to- She can't say that anymore. I like being able to say that, though.

I know, but you can't say that when you're in on the decision. All you can say is, We together made a dumb butt decision. That's all you can say from this point forward. That's it. You can't say, You're an idiot. You can't do that anymore because now you have to use the plural. It's to change your pronouns. We're idiots. We are idiots. We did this. That's so true. That's what's going on here, dude. You've got to reset this The idea you have, put your little Superman cape up of you're the papa and you're the provider and all this stuff, and she's just a little woman, and you're never going to make Scarlett O'Hara happy. It's not going to happen. She's going to get on the same page and be like a grown woman and stuff, and then she'll become happy.

It's a weird balance of power.

It's a big deal, man. It's a big deal. This alignment in marriage is one of the things we find all the time in people's ability to get out of debt, people's They succeed in their careers at a greater rate and their ability to build wealth because they're aligned on sacrificing and they make decisions together. The first time we did that after going broke was we finally saved up a little bit of money and I had $10,000. Sharon was driving a blue three-tone Astro van. You remember those?

Oh, 100%.

Completely ugly. The carpet was covered in toddler goldfish from the third kid. It was nasty. This was a bad car. It was an embarrassing vehicle.

When they first came out, they were all right.

Well, this was not first come out. She's like, I need a better car. We need to move up to a suburban. I had $10,000 or $15,000 saved at the company. I was getting ready to do this investment. We were going to buy this thing, and I was going to make $100,000 with this $15,000 down here. She's like, We need to do a car. You know what? We did both, but we did the car first, and then we did the company. It turns out now, all these years later, it was okay. But in the moment, aligning on that with two grownups was a big deal. It was a big deal. This is the Ramsey Show. Do you ever feel like you're finally making progress towards your goals only to get quickly distracted by something else in your feed? Well, that's why we created the Ramsey Network app, your single source content that keeps you motivated. The Ramsey Network app is designed to keep you laser-focused on reaching your goals. Loaded with over 7,000 hours of Ramsey shows, this free app is the best place for uninterrupted content and no distractions. Plus, you can search specific questions to get more personalized content in seconds.

So for the days you need some extra motivation, you'll have proven advice at your fingertips. It's time to get serious about your goals and shut out the distractions for good. Simply search Ramsey Network in the App Store or Google Play. If you're listening on a podcast, just click the link in the show notes to download our free Ramsey Network app today. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality number one, best-selling author of the book Money's Not a Math Problem. She's my co-host today. Open phones here at 888-828. Com. 5225. Scott's in Las Vegas. Hey, Scott, what's up?

Hi, how are you, Dave? Long-time listener. I really appreciate you guys taking my call. Sure. I came across a question today for investing purposes on my I lost 401k. My coworkers and I were looking for next year and looking at setting things up. And the question came up about, if I were to put, let's say, 15% of my income and I hit the IRS cap, let's say October or November, will that negatively affect how my company match for the remainder of the year where I'm not actually giving any money? I don't know if it's a number that's going to be a fixed number regardless. Will the company's 6% match be the same if I hit it in October or if I were to spread it out over smaller increments throughout the 26 paychecks?

That's a question for your company, your HR team. That's not a regulation issue.

My own company would be how they would be able to.

It's not a regulation issue.

Because I didn't know if it was a way to be able to calculate that, to be able to look at even previous, because a couple of years, I'd hit that number in October, and then the last two years, let me have a little bit more money in my pocket throughout the course, and I spread it out with a little bit lower number and let it hit the last check in December. I didn't know if that was going to be from a negative impact if I were to just- I think you could look at the total for that year, total invested by you, and then the total match and divide it and tell what the percentage was, right? Right, sure. Exactly.

That would tell you what your company does. Some companies match up to a certain amount. Some companies match all the way through. We match a percentage regardless of what you put in, regardless when you put it in. I've got some high-income earners that fully fund theirs in the first quarter. Then they just don't have that because they max it out completely. They're not allowed to put any more than that end. Sure, exactly. And so not by us, but by regulation. And then we match that as they do it whenever they do it, whatever they do. Same. But that's a company decision as to how the match is done. If you If I have to drag it out to get the full match, I would drag it out.

Makes sense. If you need to- I'll reach out to them and find out how they distribute that money.

If you need to do 12 even months to get the full match, then do the 12 even months because the match is more valuable than the early portion of the investing. But that brings up another interesting thing, Jade, that sometimes people ask us, Should I spread my personal Roth over 12 months or just do it in January? You should do it in January is the answer, mathematically, because the entire amount is earning throughout the entire year rather than a portion of it earning each month more. That's right. Well, what if the market went down? Well, if the market goes down, none of this works. It only works when it's going up. Overall, we know it's going to go up. It could go up or down in the short term. But yeah. Scott, that's an HR and payroll and whoever's managing your 401k at your company question. You could get a hint before you even call them by looking at the percentage they gave or the dollars they gave last year as a percentage of what you put in last year and see if that matches their standard match rate. That would tell you. If you're looking like 6%, then you go, Okay, I put in $10,000 irregularly, but they still put in 6% of that, 600 bucks, or whatever the number is.

But you could still look at that and figure that out. Very cool. Very cool. Good stuff, man. That's a great question, by the way. Here's the neat thing about all this. People like him, it's not the answer to this technical question that matters. What matters is he's actually thinking about it.

I was going to say that- Most people don't think about it. They don't think about it. The fact that he's maxing it out, the fact that he's thinking through that is really, really great.

Yeah, the intentionality. One of the things, I've got a friend that his dad was the governor of Tennessee in the 1950s. Okay. He's in his '70s now. But he was a little kid in short pants in the governor's mansion in the 1950s. I had a great discussion with him one night. He said, The discussion in our family table growing up, was politics. He said, You know what rich people talk about at the family table? Generosity and investing and value purchases, not cheapo purchases.

All the important things you can do with money.

Long-term decision. A rich kid grows up with a silver spoon because their parents got rich because they were concentrating on money, not obsessed by it, not worshiping it. Like my friend's family, didn't worship politics. They weren't obsessed by it, but they were in that world. It's what they did. It made me realize that's how if you grow up, I got a cousin's car dealer, and guess what? He owns a bunch of cars. I wonder why.

Yeah, I think you end up talking about the things that are a value to you in your life, whether it's your religious beliefs, moral beliefs, hobbies, whatever that is. That's what you talk about. That's what you pass down.

You need to be thoughtful about that. But that's the same thing of Scott being intentional. What's him and his friends sitting around the lunch table talking about? Not other people's careers carrying a football. Well, let me tell you- They're talking about their careers and how they're going to build it well.

I think that's one of the... I mean, we talked about this early, but if you're on social media and you know more about P Diddy and you know more about other celebrities' finances, and you know more about what so and so is driving, and you don't even know about your own stuff. You don't know the state of your own affairs. You don't care that much about your own financial situation, about your own relationships. That's a red It's a flag.

It's backwards. It really is.

More into pop culture than your own culture.

I was at a Titans football game one time, a long, long time ago, and the seats were not great. The guy in front of us was a large man. Spatious. Without a shirt and had painted his big self blue with a big Titan thing on his chest. He yelled and screamed like the world was coming to an end on every play he cussed the coach. You didn't like that? On every play he cussed the players. I told my wife, I said, If he was as enthusiastic about his career or his marriage as he is about watching these young kids down here playing football, he would probably have a good life. Wrong dose.

You got to channel it to the right cause.

I mean, I'm sorry. I get it if you're in college and you and your buddies all have too many beers and paint letters on your chest and take your clothes off or whatever. I get that. Take your shirts off, anyway. I get that. I don't get 50, 6 years old. Yeah. And obese. I don't get that one. It's just gross, all right? I'm just saying it. Just saying it for all the rest of us out there. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Com/ramsey. Hey, guys. George Campbell here, and it's that time of year again. The store shelves are packed with Little Debbie's Christmas trees, matching pajamas for you and your dog. You know who you are. And giant inflatable Santas for the yard. I'm not mad about that. And speaking of inflation, Americans are about to spend close to a trillion dollars this Christmas. And get this, one-third of that spending will be swiped on credit cards. Yikes. Now, I get it. You want the holidays to feel magical and you want to have a good time. But trust me, there is nothing magical about staring down a mountain of credit card debt come January. So here's the deal. If you don't want January you to hate December you, I've got a money hack for you. Download the EveryDollar app. It's free to get started, and you could find an extra $400 of margin in your first month of using it. See, with every dollar, you'll keep your holiday spending under control. You'll track your expenses, you'll make a plan, you'll stay accountable, and maybe even set yourself up with some sweet New Year goals. So skip the post-Christmas regret and download every dollar for free in the App Store today.

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Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Sydney is in Cincinnati, Ohio. Hi, Sydney. Welcome to The Ramsey Show.

Hi. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

What's up?

I'm new to the Ramsey universe, but I am currently working through the steps, currently on step three. Cool. And earlier this I got President Biden's student loan forgiveness and a refund check with that. I am completely consumer debt-free outside my mortgage.

Okay, stop just a second. Stop just a second because President Biden has issued several press releases, but all of the debt forgiveness was all programs that were already in existence. He took credit for them, but they were already there. Aside from that, what was the forgiveness that you got? What What type? What was the situation?

Just my student loans. My school was deemed predatory or whatever.

Okay.

That's been in place for 20 years. Schools that are predatory and go broke, the student loans are forgiven for the last 20 years.

You should, by the way.

And they should be. That is a standard for… The student loan that you took out with this predatory trade school is what they typically are, or some online school or something like that. They They gave you student loans. They were federally insured student loans, and the federal government forgave those because they deemed the school to be predatory, right?

Yes.

How much had you paid into it and they gave you that back.

That's what the refund check was?

Yes. I used that to pay off my car, my 401k loan that I used to do my mortgage. I know that's against the rules. I learned that now. I didn't do that then. That's okay. And paid off my credit card. I've been consumer debt free all year since then.

Except the 401k.

No, I paid that off as well. Oh, good.

What all did you get back?

Way to go.

How much was it?

I got 16, 17,000 back.

Okay, and that cleared up some of the remainder mess. All right, so let me think here.

All right, so the student loan was taken out.

The money was given to the predatory school. The predatory school goes broke, you are forgiving the student loan, and they refunded you what you had paid on the student loan. I don't think that type of loan forgiveness is taxable. Most loan forgiveness is taxable, but this is a different program because you did not actually receive the money here. The money you received back was your money you paid against the loan.

Yeah.

That was already your money. You don't think that could be tax? Yeah. If you take out a credit card loan and you go buy something for yourself or you put the money in your pocket, and then they forgive that, that's taxable, but you got the benefit of that. You did not get any benefit here. I don't think this is taxable, but you're going to have to check with a tax professional to be sure.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to see if you guys had any insight on, because I'm currently getting laid off, and my plan is to file my taxes first thing next year to help bridge any potential employment I'm expecting to run into. But now I'm like, if I'm going to get taxed on that, do I wait a few hours?

I don't think you're going to get taxed on that.

I don't think you're going to.

Here's the way. Let's get you a pure answer. Here's the Way to do it. Go to ramseysolutions. Com, and we call them Endorsed Local Providers. They're people that we have vetted and we are comfortable with their professionalism and the quality of care that they give. One of them is in the area of tax. You're looking for a tax ELP, Endorsed Local Provider, at ramseysolutions. Com in your area of Cincinnati. There will be one or two or three of them. Hollar at one of them and talk to them about preparing your taxes and ask them on the phone if this type of loan forgiveness is taxable. Tell them, Dave said he doesn't think it is, but for them to double check it.

I see something on here that says, and I don't know if this was a part of American rescue because this was in place before that.

No, this is not American rescue.

Yeah. But it says that if they're discharged between January first and December 31st of 2025, they are not taxable. You shall see.

Okay. I don't think you're going to get taxed on this one, okay?

Okay.

Good question. Good question. Lesson learned, politics aside, politicians tend to take credit for things they didn't do. It's part of being a politician. When I I was interviewing President Trump before the election. One of the things I told him was people like me that own small businesses and actually do create jobs, it pisses us off when you politicians say you create jobs because you politicians don't create nothing. All you can do is create an environment for those of us that actually create jobs to function. He laughed and goes, Well, that's right. But then the next week, he comes out and talks about all the jobs he created. But that's politicians, and Biden didn't forgive these loans either. This program has been in place, God, since student loans have been there. Predatory lending, so like a truck driving school that goes broke or a tech school, you go get a computer certification, but they're just... Some of the times they're like hair care or a massage therapist or something like that. They'll get student loans going on these things, and they can gin them up, and they make a ton of money, and then they turn the key and walk away with all the money in their pocket.

They're scams. They're fronts is what they are. They pop up, and then they die. They pop up, and then they die.

Daytime television. If you're watching Judge Mathis or all that, I feel like all that's on TV are these, I don't want to call them education institutes, but you know.

Well, that's what they call themselves. We would be doing it as a Saturday Night Live skit. But the federal student loan forgiveness has been there for those types of situations for at least 20 years, at least.

Well, listen, if you really want to get technical, it's never administration for giving debt. It's taxpayers for giving your debt.

We don't get the choice. We just get the bill.

That's what I'm saying. Let's put the check on who is really paying it.

That's it. That's for sure. Anytime the government, what was it Reagan said? If somebody says, I'm from the government and I'm here to help, run. That's the bottom line there, and that's either party, I'll just tell you. Sure, yeah. But that's the thing to remember. Just either way, the good news is, by the way, if someone passed away in your family, the student loans are forgiven. It's been that way 30 years. If someone is permanently disabled, their student loans are forgiven. It's been that way for 30 years. That's not a new program. It's been since I've been on the air that we've been talking about this. That's the stuff. But either way, you do have to deal with the tax question So Sydney is smart to ask that question about the taxes. I think I'm pretty sure you're not going to get taxed, but don't take Dave Ramsey's tax advice. I suck at it.

Here it is. I found it. Borrow or defense. This is a program that eliminates federal student loan belonging to borrowers who their college misled them or if their school engaged in misconduct, if they violated any state laws, the IRS has issued notices for these and they are not taxable as income.

Okay. There you go. That's according to Google. So Also, check that out because it's on the internet. Abraham Lincoln said everything on the internet is true.

It's a good place to start.

Yeah, that's the thing you got to remember. But that's probably it. You found that on the IRS site or what?

No, this is an article from Yahoo Finance.

Yahoo Finance, yeah. Once again, please don't take their advice or mine. Please get a professional to be sure. But it sounds like that we're on to something there. Sounds like we're on the right track. Good stuff. Very, very cool. All right, ladies and gentlemen, that's how we do it. Listen, the way the student loans go away. Jade, how does your student loans go away? Work. Oh, there's that. It's a new program. It's a brand new program that's out. It's called WORK.

Yeah, it's called you wake up in the morning, you go to work, and you stay at work all day, and then you take the money and you pay off your loans for a long time.

You ought to get a radio show.

You don't have You don't do a whole lot other in between. You just work and pay off the loans and work and pay off the loans.

My grandmother used to say, There's a great place to go when you're broke. To work. I love it. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, guys, I've never done this before, but I'm partnering with a nutrition company, Field of Greens. Each fruit and vegetable in Field of Greens is selected by doctors to support heart, liver, and kidney health, plus metabolism for healthy weight. And your doctor will notice your improved health or Field of Greens will give you your money back. I can get behind a promise like that. Go to fieldofgreen. Com/ramsey and get 15% off with promo code Ramsey. Fieldofreens. Com/ramsey. Hey, listen up, guys. Black Friday deals start right now. Yep, you heard that right. You don't have to wait until Black Friday or even leave the house to get great deals on our most popular gifts. You can get our best selling hardcover books for just $12 and audiobooks for just eight. Give like no one else this season with gifts that actually mean something to your loved ones. Go to ramseysolutions. Com/store to shop the deals today. That's ramseysolutions. Com/store. Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality, number one best selling author is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt free stage.

Alex and Brenda are with us. Hey, guys, how are you? Hi, good. How are you? Good. How are you? Good. How are you? Welcome. Where do you all live?

We're in Parker, Colorado, just a little bit south of Denver.

Oh, cool. Well, welcome. Good to have you. All the way over to Nashville to do a debt-free scream. How much have you paid off?

Dave, we paid off $305,000 or $305,450. Wow.

Sorry. How long did that take?

Three years, two months, and 13 days.

Three years and two months. Wow. And your range of How much income during that time?

Our range of income was $148,000 to $240,000.

Wow. Nice jump. What do you all do for a living?

I am full-time with the Kalender Army National Guard.

I'm a civilian with the Army National Guard as a cost accountant.

Very good. Well, thanks for your service. Well done, you guys. Good work. Very fun. What debt was this? $305,000.

It was our mortgage. I knew it.

Paid off your house. I can tell by the smile. I love it. Wow, you guys are so weird. I love it, weirdos. Good work. How much is this house worth?

$850,000.

How old are you two?

We're in our early 30s.

Wow. You have a paid-for $850,000 house.

Yes, sir.

Man, how much in your nest egg in your 401ks in retirement?

Right around 300 as of right now. Wow.

So you're millionaires in your early 30s. We I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Look at you two. Way to go, man. When you got married, how broke were you?

We are actually fairly new to this marriage. We got married about four years ago. We were on this journey as singles.

Okay. All right. You just took off and get this quick then. Tell us your Ramsey story. How did you get plugged into this three years and two months ago?

Well, she started a long time before I did. I was messing around, and then she You gave me your…

Total money makeover. When we were deciding if we were going to date or not, I was like, Read this book and let's talk about it. And we decided if we wanted to keep talking.

You better write to have the right answers on the next dinner.

It was funny because I read it and I was like, Oh, I'm doing all this stuff anyway. I got fed up with being broke. Then I was like, Oh, this is easy enough. Being a money person anyways, I was like, All right, well, this is simple. I read the book, I had the seven steps, and I was just like, Okay, let's do it.

Here we go. I love it. Very cool. You guys met at the National Guard, I assume? Yes. Okay, very good. Man, that's a great situation you're in. After just four years of marriage in your early 30s. But it sounds like, Brenda, you had a head start on it. Yes.

I grew up with parents who didn't do debt, and so when I moved out, I didn't do debt. I didn't have a hole to dig out of.

Did you all buy the house after marriage?

We did. As soon as we got married, we became a family of five. We had his son and my two kids the day we got married. I lived in tiny little house, and we went out, and we put over 50% down on our house and decided just to kick it. We made this our baby step two. Okay. Just took off running with it.

Pretty intense then.

Yes. A big part of this was that we wanted to teach FPE, which we had done in the past, and we just actually finished doing a week ago.

Nice. Yeah, we just finished our second course.

We wanted to be like, Practice what you preach. Because we didn't have a step two together, we treated paying off the mortgage like our step two, even though it's not exactly advised. Yeah, that's all right.

I get it. Alex, what'd you pay off beforehand? Because for you, that was the change.

I was working a credit card in my car paying those off. I think together, that was 19,000.

Okay, wow. Brenda put the screws to it. She said not allowed. Very cool.

Well, thanks for teaching Financial Peace University. That had to be a great class. You guys had to be like cloud nine.

Yeah, we're pretty excited.

We We taught it once, and then we took the most motivated couple that was there, and we were their co-leaders the next time around. So this last time that we just finished.

Yeah, Matthew and Amber, they were our co-leaders this time. They did great.

I love it. To build the next generation of coordinators. Exactly. Good for Good for you. All right, when you're coordinating a class or when someone asks how you're a millionaire at age early 30s with a paid for $850,000 house, and you don't make $2 million a year either, when someone asks, How did you do that? What do you tell them the key to getting out of debt is?

Hard work, for sure. I think between the two of us, we had about 13 jobs. We each had a solid job, and then we took on several side jobs. You can tell you what most of them were.

So not all the same time, but over the three years I were doing this, I worked at Home Depot for a summer. We both worked delivering packages for Amazon. I was a tax assistant at our CPA office. We both did landscaping. I did Uber and Lyft. I was a Reservist National Guard. I did handyman work. She sold items on Nextdoor. So it was a whole bunch of, not all at once, but there was always something going on just to keep it new and different.

I love that. So what happens next? You got a paid-for house, you don't have a payment in the world. What are you planning?

I think our next thing is probably cars. Okay. We drive very old, very used cars.

What are you going to get?

Nothing new, but new to us. Probably a newish or a newer minivan, and then he needs a nicer commuter car. He's driving a '06 car with very many miles.

Something from this decade.

I love that.

I first want to move up to this decade. It's a good move. I like that. That's good. Very cool. Well, you drove those beaters, and now you'll never have to again. Make sure you take pictures of them. We will. Before they leave, because I've got pictures of every car I owned except one, and I really wish I had that one. Is it the original? No, it was one of those beaters that I had. Somehow managed to not… That was back when we actually had film and stuff like that in cameras. Anyway, sidebar. But yeah, good. Good job, you guys. Who was cheering you on as you went?

We have a whole list. We have a ton of cheerleaders. Matthew and Amber, like I mentioned, are our co-host on Financial Peace.

Get the little cheat sheet.

It's okay to look at it.

You can look at it. I look at them all time.

My English brother Lloyd and his wife, Haley, are on this journey, and they're right behind us in Baby Step 2. Paul and Felicity and Sean and Rosa in our class in FPU, cheering us along and also learning along with us. Then several coworkers, we have Ms. Cisely, Ms. Miranda, Ms. Alida, and Ms. Jennifer.

Her mother, Linda.

Did you have anybody telling you not Can you do this?

A couple of people kept saying we're crazy. Yeah, probably.

I don't have anybody specific. What was the most lucrative side hustle? One that made the most money?

Probably Amazon Flex, just because they give you blocks of time, and if you finish it early, you get paid for that full block, whether or not. That's nice. We would take our older kids along with us, and they would throw us packages from the back. We could finish a three-hour route in an hour and a half, and then go pick up another one.

Which one did you dislike the most?

Probably Amazon Flex.

It was a lot of work.

There were days that we would be up at 3:30 in the morning. We'd go. Well, actually, it was earlier than that. We'd be there at 3:30, and then we go to our real jobs at 6:37. Then sometimes after that, I wanted both of us to take up on that shift.

It was crazy.

Both of us sometimes work a 90-hour plus a week.

Was it It was totally worth it.

It was totally worth it. The grass really does feel different under your feet.

Tell somebody why, because people call in all the time and they're like, I've got a low interest rate. They feel like it's not worth it to them. But here you are doing it and you sacrifice to do it.

I'm a simplifier person, so it's just one less thing to worry about. And now we really get to put it towards our retirement accounts. So we're able to max out our Roths. I think five years ago, I was looking at my Net amounts. I was like, I wasn't even making this amount five years ago. And that's after putting in max Roth contributions and having other things come out. So it's just a big thing out of the way.

And now I get to stay home.

Wow, that's a big one.

I'm not yet, but I'm in the process.

Oh, wow. Very soon. Stay home. Good. Well, I guess so. You're a millionaire. That's neat. Love it. I'm so proud of you all. You're amazing. I mean, in their early 30s, so well done. All right, are the kiddos going to scream with you? They are. All right, let's get them up here, introduce them, give us their names and ages.

We might have a sad one.

Uh-oh. Did we lose one?

Here they come.

Oh, the little would say it. That's okay. Oh, she's cute. Look at how cute. That dress. Oh, my God. That's all right. How that's perfect. All right, Alex and Brenda, Addie, Liam, Logan, and Anna Lee, 305,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream.

All right, three, two, one.

We're dead free.

I'm going to scare the little one to death. That's good. Baby Steps Millionaires in their early 30s. What'd they do? Follow the stuff we teach. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here, and I got a big announcement. I'm coming to a city near you live on the Money and Relationships Tour with Dr. John Deloney. This is the most interactive event we've ever done. You get to decide what we talk about. You do not want to miss this. We'll be coming to Louisville, Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fortworth, and Kansas City in April and May of 2025. Get your tickets and more information at ramseysolutions. Com/tour. Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality, my co-host today. Ramsey's Black Friday sale is going on right now. Get early access to some of our best deals of the year. Meaningful gifts for family and friends, as low as $8. Our best-selling books like the Total Money Makeover, Baby Steps Millionaires, Own Your Past, Change Your Future, only $12. Audibooks and ebooks, only $8. Rachel Cruz's Wallet right now, the In Black and Camel and Brown and Champagne are on sale. Questions for Human Cards on sale at just $12, including the new Christmas edition.

Check out the Black Friday sales, and you can check out everything, including Jade's book, Money's Not A Math Problem. Everything's in there. Check it all out. All kinds of T-shirts. We got a lot of fun stuff there. If you're on this journey, you got to have some fun with it. Ramsey Solutions grandrapids. Com/store, or click the link if you're on podcast or YouTube. This is nice. That is nice. It's a little champagne action there, I heard. That's what they call it. Grand Rapids is in Michigan. It is Dan is there. Hi, Dan. How are you?

Hey, Dave. Doing good. How are you doing today?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Okay, make a long story short. I'm in between Baby Step One and Baby Step Two. Things are going good. Stuff breaks.

Spend my $1,000.

Got to rebuild I'll give you step one. I got my girlfriend. She's trying to start to get to meet here. We want to be married, have a family. She has $21,000 in credit card debt. She found this company accredited debt relief. They offered us a payment of $342,000 a month for 48 months. That's to pay off the credit cards. The problem is that's only $16,400. I don't understand how this could work.

Because it's the same as filing bankruptcy. It's going to destroy her credit. Here's the way they work. Stay away from them. Stay away from them, but here's why. The way they work is when you sign up with them, they take over all of your payments, and the first thing they do is they stop making any payments, and they let all the credit cards go into default if they're not there already. They go into default, and the credit card companies then will settle a bad debt. Now, she will be in collections on every one of them, and then they'll settle the bad debt for a lesser amount than is owed and set up payments on that. That's how they know that they can get you a $16,000 deal. By the way, if you did this yourself and just quit paying for a year, which I don't recommend- Same thing would happen. Then you can call them and settle for probably a quarter on the dollar. You probably settle all this for 5,000 or 6,000 bucks. But that is also not paying your bill when you're able to, number one. Number two, you've completely destroyed your credit.

I mean, nasty, bad, nasty. You got a bunch of outstanding bad debt at that point. That's the way these people work. It basically does the same thing to your credit as filing Chapter 13 bankruptcy does. You could do the same thing with Chapter 13 bankruptcy. You could file with Chapter 13 bankruptcy. If you qualify for the bankruptcy under guidelines, then you can pay a percentage, not 100%, but you could pay, in this case, you said 16 out of 21, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, you could pay. You could pay 75 cents on the dollar. You could agree to pay 75% to my unsecured creditors in my Chapter 13. That's not 48 months, that's 60 months. But they could do the exact same thing there, and it'll do the exact same thing to her credit. Only technically, she's filed for bankruptcy, and the other one, she didn't technically file for bankruptcy. But it does the same amount of damage, if not more, to your reputation and to the process. Plus, you're screwed. You're in debt $21,000 for $48 for four years when you could have paid it off by next Christmas working five jobs.

Yeah, Why can't you just pay it off? Why can't you just work more and pay it off? Tell us more about that. What's the income?

I work for the railroad.

I'm on 12 right now, which is legally the most I can work.

She's a teacher, and she's starting to do Amazon Flex. But she has a daughter, I love to death.

What's she teach?

She's the director of a bunch of different daycares. She used to be a daycare teacher, but she's now the director of a a bunch of those. She makes about 55,000 a year.

Okay. All right. Now that I've explained to you and answered your question on what it does, I'll give you a suggestion rather than doing that. Okay? What I'll do is I'm going to give you Financial Peace University and every dollar plus for both of you. She's going to have her account, you're going to have your account because you're not married. Okay? I want both of you to get on a detailed, tight budget. Don't spend any money on anything. Live on beans and rice, no eating out, no vacations, and working extra. If she has a teaching degree and a talent in a particular subject like math or English, she can do tutoring and make more than Amazon Flex. If she can get some students from the local elementary or local junior high or whatever, and she teaches math in the afternoons or the math in the evenings after she gets home. I mean, you can make $30 to $50 an hour doing that.

Yeah. Childcare, too.

And your kids sitting in the other room while you're doing this. They come to your house. That's a great idea. Yeah, I've got a friend that's a reading specialist that makes bank while her kids sit in the other room. On the side. I mean, it's serious money there because they got reading problems, and man, she's... Wow, it's really cool stuff. Anyway, that's what I would add to this and say, All right, we're going to increase our income. We're going to tighten down Everything. We're going to have a new thought. We're going to get all these credit cards tonight and have plastic surgery, and we're going to pay them at 100%, and we're going to pay them so fast that they're in our rear view mirror and we get a life. But 48 months, man, that's ridiculous. That's like saying, I'm going to jail. You get to go to jail for four years, and you barely just get to bring the food and slide it under the bars. No, thank you. I don't want to live like that. I don't want to get... Oh, jeez. No, man.

The goal needs to be if you can make a goal that we're going to make or she's going to make 1,700 extra dollars, find it every single month. What does it look like? Is it Amazon Flex? Is it tutoring?

That pays it off in one year?

Yeah. Is it childcare?

Is it a cut in the budget? She makes 55 already. Yeah. That's the stuff we're doing, Dan. We're going to help you with that. It's the hard way, but it's the fast way. It's deep sacrifice, but it's in your rear view mirror and you get to have a great life on the other side of it, versus signing up for a long slug through the mud. That's what we're doing. At the end of the story, you're still screwed because you just completely destroyed everything as far as credit goes. She's probably going to have some dings on her credit, probably already does, but nothing like what you'd be signing up for if you go to those type of a company. We do not recommend them at all. Hang on the line. The team will pick up and we will get you signed up for Financial Peace University. Get her signed up. You guys, you can go through the class together, but you need your own separate budgets because you're not married yet and you keep your finances separate until you're married. Good question, sir. I appreciate you checking on her behalf. Wow. You see them on cable TV, and there's a couple of them have been fined, like 400.

I mean, one of them got fined, it can't be 400 million. Was that the fine? There's some ridiculous one that Tom Selleck endorsed, and the Federal Trade Commission hammered them with fines a couple of years ago because it's just a scummy side of the world.

Yeah, it's scummy. I don't like situations where you take control from you and give it to someone else to do things on your behalf.

What they're doing is acting like I didn't pay my bill so that they can get a discount. Yeah. I mean, in trashing my stuff in the meantime. But we're in the debt relief business just like Dave Ramsey. No, you're not. No, you're not. It's not even close. Not even close to the same thing. You got to stay away from those things. They call themselves also debt consolidation. Yeah. It's not debt consolidation at all. You're not consolidating debt. Consolidating debt is when you get one debt and pay off all the others with the one debt. Or you don't pay it off, you move it to the one debt. But that's like a home equity loan. That's debt consolidation. But not paying them and you paying these goobers one payment, that's not consolidation at all. It's really not debt relief.

No, it's not relief.

At the end, I guess it is in one sense, but I wonder what the percentage of people that complete it is. Probably pretty low.

That's a good question.

That's interesting to look at. You don't finish it, you're really screwed. That puts us hour of The Ramsey Show in the books.

Hey, you're still here?

What are you doing? You do know that the rest of today's show is playing right now over on the Ramsey Network app, right? All you got to do to finish the episode is search Ramsey Network in the App Store, Google Play Store, or just click the link in the show notes to download the app for free. Yep, you heard me right, for free. Then right there on the home screen, you can watch the rest of today's show. Bada bing, bada boom. All right, I'm getting out of here. Enjoy. We'll see you on the app.