Transcript of Listen to “Trumpland with Alex Wagner”

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A note to listeners, this podcast contains some explicit language. Trump is now officially 47th President of the United States. That happened at noon on the dot. He then took the oath of office very shortly thereafter. His second inaugural address. During every single day of the Trump administration, I will very simply put America first. Earlier this week, on a very cold afternoon in Washington, DC, Donald John Trump was sworn in as the 47th President of the United States. Trump was inside the Capitol Rotunda, surrounded by the political, financial, and cultural elite. But outside of that room, the ceremony was watched by millions of people the world over. Some were anxious, others were excited. Everyone was wondering about what a second Trump term will mean for immigration, the economy, the environment, America, and the globe. I'm Alex Wagner, host of Alex Wagner Tonight on MSNBC. And for the first 100 days of this new administration, I'm going to be taking a break from the anchor chair to get out the field. I'll be going to the front lines and speaking to the players and the principals on both the issuing and receiving ends of Trump's policies. We're calling this news show, Trumpland with Alex Wagner.

These are conversations we can't always have on TV with people you definitely don't usually see on TV. You'll get a 360-degree view of what's happening both at home and overseas now that Donald Trump is once again President of the United States. This week, I've been reporting on a group of people nervously anticipating what President Trump might do on his very first week back in the White House. President Donald Trump not wasting any time getting down to business. The convicted defendants of the January sixth insurrection, as well as their families and the police officers who were the victims of the attack itself.

We want a unified country.

They said, Don't talk What about the J6 hostages that you're going to be releasing today? Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again? Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man. I would have died for him that day.

There are no words to describe this moment other than, I've been betrayed by my country.

Within hours of taking office, President Trump issued full pardons to roughly 1,500 J6 defendants. Defendants. So on this first episode of Trump land with Alex Wagner, I'm headed to DC, but not for the inauguration. We're headed to jail.

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Thank you, President, for signing those pardons. And as always, as I've told everybody, remember, the President adheres to his promises. Promises made, promises kept. Promises made, promises kept. Promises made, promises kept. On the campaign trail, Donald Trump talked repeatedly about pursuing pardons for January sixth inmates if he was elected. You could read a lot into the fact that he referred to them as hostages. But this outcome, the blanket pardon of 1,500 criminal defendants involved in the capital insurrection, is just about the most extreme version of what this might have looked like. Nobody really saw this coming. Even Trump's running mate. Just eight days before being sworn in as vice President, J. D. Vance indicated quite strongly that violent offenders would not be granted pardons.

If you protested peacefully on January the sixth, and you've had Merritt Garland's Department of Justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned.

If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn't be pardoned. But of course, that is exactly what Donald Trump did, literally hours after he was sworn in as President. There was no better audience for that news on Monday night than the one outside the detention facility in Washington, where an estimated 22 January 6ers have been locked up. Dc Jail. Praise God. Thank you so much, Lord Jesus, for doing the good work that we know that you do. Holy spirit, you're welcome here outside the DC gulag. We were receiving our J6 hostages by midnight. This is going to happen. The Jail is a multi-story concrete building. From where we're standing across the street, you can see an intake area with large gates that open for vehicles and barbed wire, cooled around the tops of the building. People are gathered in a small open patch of dead grass. It's sloped downhill, and there's ice everywhere. But for the crowd of 50-ish diehard January 6 supporters, this might as well be a summer barbecue. There's music and singing and dancing. All that's missing are the hot dogs. A small group of family and friends has been meeting outside this facility to hold a vigil and sing the national anthem while on the phone with the inmates inside.

They've been doing this every night for over 900 days, and they're getting impatient. Hey, DC gulag, let our people go Let our people go. Let our people go. What have you heard about what the President is doing tonight?

I heard everybody's getting out of jail tonight. We've had several released across the country.

But no one's come out of DC jail. Not yet. I wasn't here, but what was the reaction like when you heard the news?

It's amazing. It's what everybody's been waiting for for four years.

One of the main organizers of these vigils is Mickey Wythoff. They call her Mama Mickey, and she's become a second mother for countless January 6 defendants and their families. Mama Mickey is a no-bullshit presence at these vigils, someone who both advocates loudly for the inmates inside the jail and keeps their supporters outside of it in line. She's also the mother of Ashley Babbit, the only January 6 protester who was shot and killed by Capitol Police. You may have seen the video, a woman trying to climb through one of the doors where glass had been broken out as the mob breaches an area of the Capitol until she's taken down by a shot from a Capitol police officer, a shot that proved to be fatal. Babbit was a 35-year-old Air Force veteran who had traveled to DC from California to be there that day. J-sixers consider Babbit a martyr for their cause, and Mama Mickey, a representing for family members of those prosecuted. She said she had spoken to Donald Trump multiple times. So the reaction was like, Was anybody surprised? Or did everybody thought he was going to let everyone out?

He said he was, and then when I talked to him last week, he said, Tell them that he loves them, keep their chins up. And he's been supportive throughout. He's called the vigil and talked to them over the phone. And I am not surprised. And I think anybody that was there that day, even the men that weren't perfectly well to have done enough time, and it's time for him to come home.

You'll have to forgive the music in the background. But as I mentioned, this gathering was part vigil, part protest, part celebration. Do you think President Trump is going to suffer any political fallout from parting people?

He suffers political fallout for whatever he does.

But I just mean for the... There are some folks who were in jail who assaulted law officers, law enforcement.

There were lots of law officers that assaulted American citizens. If you think about the fact that they said that everybody came to to overthrow the government. You think about the fact that it was a gun-toating populace of the United States of America that showed up on the Capitol grounds, and the only weapon used was the one that was used to kill my daughter. So American citizens did not show up to take over the government with water bottles and flagpoles.

I just wonder if you think the whole country is going to see it that way? No. So you think he's taking a risk?

Absolutely.

I'm sure you feel like you're going to have his back for this. What does that look like?

Trump supporters will always be Trump supporters. Haters might always be Trump haters unless they give him a chance to be America's President, which I believe he will be a President for all Americans. I believe right now with the system we have with the Democrats and Republicans, and I think that our leaders, they divide us by example.

As we moved around the crowd, there was an older gentleman giving a speech while holding a huge American flag, one that he says he carried with him on January sixth. It's gigantic, bigger than the bedspread on a California king. It's also flying upside down.

One thousand 475 days.

You heard it first from Mama Mickey. God bless you. God bless the USA.. His name is Ben Pollack, and he's here from Florida. I'm with MSNBC. Oh, I'm with MSNBC. Oh, I'm with MSNBC. Yeah. So we're out here. We're trying to understand what's happening. It's about time I got to talk to you guys. I've been waiting. I'm sure. Well, here we are. So The last day. Yeah. Well, we're the beginning of a whole new chapter. That's right. You've been out here holding Vigil. Who do you have inside? I got Jonathan Pollock and Olivia Pollock. We were all as a family He came up on January sixth with our church. I got friends, Michael Perkins, and he's going to be released out of Coleman in Florida. Then I got another buddy on an ankle monitor. All my friends are locked up What happens with your son and daughter? Yes. What exactly? What are they in for? They're in for about everything. We looked up the exact charges, and just about everything isn't a bad description. Jonathan faced 17 counts and multiple alleged felonies, including assaulting officers with a dangerous weapon. In Jonathan's case, that meant charging at police with a flag pole.

Among Jonathan's other charges were violent entry, disorderly conduct, and theft of government property. Olivia was charged with multiple felony offenses along similar lines as her brother. She also assaulted police officers who were trying to contain the riot outside the capital. Before the two were arrested last year, they were on the lamb, running from law enforcement and invading accountability for three years. Now, their trial, which was supposed to take place next month, has been scrapped. Their charges dropped, and their release from the DC jail imminent. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again? Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man. I would have died for him that day. I would die for the man. Here's this father, out here in almost zero-degree weather, flying a 10-foot long American flag waiting for his children to be released from jail. And his commitment to the guy who landed him in this nightmare is unwavering. So, yeah, I believe Ben Pollack. The police had been maintaining a loose perimeter in in front of the jail, insisting everyone stay across the street in the designated vigil area. But at one point, there's some type of commotion coming from inside the jail, just beyond the glass doors that block our entry.

I think someone's getting out. Should we go across the street? Yeah. All right, so okay. People start to run towards the front entrance of the jail. In a matter of seconds, there's a large crowd. Dozens of police stream out of the building and from down the street to form a barricade in front of the glass. The loose perimeter they had been maintaining is no longer so loose. The energy in the air is frenzied. Watch out, Leon. Watch out, watch out, watch out. It's like your mount of ice. But whatever anyone initially thought, it does not appear anyone is being released. Police start to push us back to the park slowly, and thankfully, without issue. May I have your attention, please? You guys can process and say whatever you'd like from the comfort of the sidewalk and the park.

Please do not try and come across the street.

Thank you. You're welcome. It ended up just being a brief interaction, but it was tense, and it was hard to avoid how on the nose it all felt. January sixth, participants and their family members rushing towards a line of officers, a reminder of how quickly a crowd can become a mob. And And then around 10: 00 PM, a couple of well-dressed guys, perhaps just arriving after an inaugural ball, come out to announce that two prisoners, brothers Andrew and Matthew Valentin, have been released unceremoniously through a back exit. And it appears that's probably it for tonight. By 11: 00 PM, police officers start leaving, and so do we. We're back the next day, January 21st, right and early-ish, and so is the crowd. Very, very slowly, inmates from the DC Jail are being released. Did you get out today? Yes, just a little bit ago. You weren't here, right? Yes. You weren't here. I was here for the last couple of weeks because I was waiting to be resentenced. This is Rachel Powell, better known as Bullhorn Lady or Pink Hat Lady, along with her friend Cynthia Hughes. According to prosecutors, on January sixth, Powell was part of a group of rioters who used a cardboard wore pipe as a battering ram to break a window at the Capitol.

She also used an ice ax for a different window. Powell wore a recognizable pink hat and used a bullhorn to give rioters instructions, telling them that they needed to coordinate together if they were going to take the building. Powell had only been at the DC Jail for a few weeks after being moved from Hazelton Federal Prison in West Virginia. She was found guilty of a total of nine felony and misdemeanor offenses and served only one year of her five-year sentence. The thing I wonder is, was there ever any moment in jail where you were like, Why am I here? Did you ever have any frustration with President Trump? Did you ever feel like he had landed you guys in jail? No, no. Absolutely not, because I believe he really just wants to make America great again. Now, why was I sitting in prison when Anthony Fauci is loose? Why am I sitting in prison when Liz Cheney is loose? Why do those people get pardons? Because they're guilty, but they were never brought to justice. And yet me, a mom, I made a mistake and broke a window at the Capitol. I'm sorry, but do I have to lose my whole life for it when we have these criminals running the government that now have pardons?

That bothered me. Donald Trump is not responsible for January sixth. Okay? Grown men and grown women, whatever actions they took that day, they are responsible for themselves. And the country spoke loud and proud on November fifth, and they said, Donald Trump is not responsible for January sixth, and that's what we believe. We met another recent exonere, a younger man, 31 years old, named Robert Morse. Morse has curly long hair, which was being kept in place under a bright red Make America Great Again hat. Morse was one of several people who had been released from a different detention center, but came to Washington to show his support. So my name is Alex. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. When did you get out?

Last night, 11: 45 PM.

And where were you?

I was in the Pittsburgh Halfway House.

Okay. Yeah. So you were in a halfway house? Yes. Can you explain how that You ended up being there?

Sure. So on June 11, 2021, I was arrested for my actions on January 6. I spent the next three and a half years in prison. And then on August 29th of last year, I was released from prison to the halfway house in Pittsburgh. Okay. And That's where I remained until last night. And instead of going home and going to sleep like I really wish I did right now, I decided to drive here.

In May of 2023, Morse was sentenced to 66 months for several charges, including assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers with a dangerous weapon. Before January sixth, Morse had served as an army ranger and did three tours in Afghanistan. He told me he now feels like a new man.

I've grown accustomed to being a felon. I've grown accustomed to having weight on my back and essentially trying to get used to the fact that my former life was just eradicated. Half of my friends and family speak to me anymore. My brothers completely disowned me. My dad, who raised me to fall in love with the founding fathers, read the Declaration of Independence on the fourth of July, barely even speaks to me. So this has not been easy. When the Declaration of Independence ends with the last lines of them pledging their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to each other, we know what that's like to have all taken from us. So it was a beautiful thing, and almost like God's poetry, to have it slowly returned with the slate being wiped clean and being free at last.

Let me ask you something. You've been through this whole thing. Yes. If Trump comes out and says, This is an issue that I need you guys to come out for me. I need you guys to show up for me. It may mean taking to the streets. Do you think that the people who just served years or months or weeks in prison would do that again for him?

I can't speak for everybody, but I can speak for myself, and the answer to that question would be yes. I think that Donald Trump is the only politician that we've seen in a long time that is not only willing to keep his word, but also who's not willing to back down when he's up against the wall. I mean, this man's been indicted. He's been act. He's been shot at.

He's been through hell.

I mean, name anybody else that would have been willing to go through that stuff. And he's admitted that he's lost billions of dollars by being President. And so, I mean, whether you like him or you hate him, you got to respect that this man is not a quitter. And so So if this man really needed us to show up somewhere, I can't speak for anybody else. But since he's not going to quit on the American people, I have no absolute right to quit on him. So I would show up.

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll speak with someone who has risked everything to set the record straight on January 6, and we'll find out what Trump's pardons have meant for him.

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Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, Why is this happening? New York Times tech reporter, Kate Conger on Elon Musk in the Trump 2. 0 era. I think a lot of other tech leadership is looking now at what Musk has been able to accomplish by aligning himself so closely with Trump and wanting to follow suit. It is this very transparent favor trading that's going on throughout the industry right now where people are feeling like, Okay, I can cozy up to the president, and that's going to have a beneficial impact for my business. That's this week on Why is this happening? Search for Why is this happening? We're listening right and follow. It might be enticing to try and sleep through the next four years, but if you're wondering how to survive a second Trump term while staying fully conscious, Podsave America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. I'm John Favreau and Tommy Vittor, John Lovett, and Dan Pfeiffer and I wade hip deep into the week's political news and fish out some political analysis you can trust. Yes, Tommy's shoes get ruined. Yes, he'll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it, and so is your sanity.

Tune into Podsave America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Welcome back to Trump land. When you talk to friends and family members and the actual January sixth inmates themselves, there is a profound sense of victimhood, of grievance, a deep belief that they were wronged by the federal government and the Department of Justice. Very rarely do any of these folks acknowledge the violence of that day. And if they do, they often blame it on a conspiracy theory that January sixth was an inside job as if to absolve themselves. There is no proof of that, of course. And the record also plainly shows that January sixth was not a victimless crime. Ashley Babet was not the only person who died as a result of January sixth. Police officer Brian Sickenick died in the hospital after he was attacked at the Capitol. Countless law enforcement officers experienced lingering injuries and profound trauma. Police officers Howie Leabengood, Gunther Hachita, Kyle Del DeFri tag and Jeffrey Smith all later died by suicide. During this trip, we were in touch with several current and former members of the Capitol Police who witnessed and were attacked at the Capitol on January sixth.

One of those men was Michael Fanone. You might remember him. Fanone was an officer for the DC Metropolitan Police Department who was tazed in the neck by a rioter. Right after he was attacked, Fanone suffered a heart attack and lost consciousness. Another rioter then dragged him into the crowd where a pro-Trump mob began beating him to the brink of death. A few months later, Fanon testified to the January sixth Committee about what had happened.

At one point, I came face to face with an attacker who repeatedly lunged for me and attempted to remove my firearms. I heard chanting from some in the crowd, Get his gun and kill him with his own gun.

He said that the rioters called him a traitor and that they only stopped their violent attack after Fanon pleaded that he has children. Fanon resigned from the force 11 months after January sixth, reportedly ending his 20-year career in law enforcement with a resignation letter written on a napkin that read, Go fuck yourselves. On Tuesday, my colleague Peter Alexander asked President Trump about his decision to pardon DJ Rodriguez, the man who tased Fanon during the January sixth insurrection. President Trump didn't have a clear answer.

You would agree that it's never acceptable to assault a police officer? So then if I can, among those you pardoned DJ Rodriguez. He drove a stunned gun into the neck of a DC police officer who was adopted by the mob that day.

He later confessed on video to the FBI and pleaded guilty for his crimes. Why does he deserve a pardon? Well, I don't know. Was it a pardon? Because we're looking at commutes and we're looking at pardons. Okay, well, we'll take a look at everything. But I can say this, murderers today are not even charged. We'd had an interview planned with Fanon the day after the mass pardons, but in morning, we got word that he was heading to the Prince William County Courthouse in Virginia to seek a protective order against several of the people who had just been pardoned by President Trump for their involvement in the capital attack. We were still able to reach him, but by phone. Me inside our car outside of the DC detention center, and Michael Fanone heading to the courthouse. I'm ready. I'm ready. Are you there, Michael? I'm here. Hey, thank you for doing this. Of course. I'm outside of DC Jail. I was here last last night, and I've been trying to get a sense of how people are processing the moment. And I think it probably doesn't surprise you that the families of the inmates are very excited.

They feel like Trump has really delivered for them. And I've been wondering how this is all going over with you. What's your reaction to the pardons and the news of the day?

I mean, it's There are no words to describe this moment other than, I've been betrayed by my country. I've been betrayed by those that supported the former President, now President of the United States. I've been betrayed by his political opponents, the Democratic Party. I've been betrayed by law enforcement.

Were you surprised that he pardoned basically almost all of them and communed the sentences of the rest?

Donald Trump announced his candidacy in Waco, Texas, the scene of one of the bloodiest conflicts between the American fringe extremist movement and law enforcement. That's where he chose to announce that he was running for president. He's been saying he was going to pardon each and every one of these violent criminals since day one.

This morning, you were going to seek a protective order. Can you talk a little bit about that?

I mean, listen, once those charges were dismissed and they received pardons, essentially, in addition to being released from prison, there's no longer any order in place preventing these individuals from contacting myself and my family. These are individuals who violently assaulted me. I was the victim in these criminal cases. And in Trump's Department of Justice, these people go free, and I have no resource to protect myself and my family. So I'm seeking a protective order. I don't know if it's going to be granted, to be totally honest with you.

Yeah. It occurs to me that this is also sending a separate message to people who would otherwise operate extra judicially outside the bounds of the law to do Trump's bidding, right? He basically now has, well, at least 1,100, 1,200, 1,300 people who have proven that they are willing to do whatever they need to to keep Trump in power, and now he's just freed all of them.

It says this. It says, This is the age of lawlessness. If you are a Trump supporter and you commit violent crimes on Trump's behalf, Donald Trump will free you.

I wonder what you make of... Trump is, as you point out, he's President, he owns the Department of Justice. What about the other Republicans in office? I mean, does it concern you that the leadership in Congress seems intent on forgetting what actually happened on January sixth?

I don't think they're intent on forgetting what happened on January sixth. I think they're intent on changing the story of January sixth to a patriotic event in which thousands of American patriots fought back against the deep state. That's going to be the new narrative. I will be the villain in this story.

So rewriting history in real-time. Correct. You're one of only a handful of law enforcement officers who've spoken out about this. Do you feel like other folks are watching this and have watched this all play out and are just trying to keep their heads down because they're worried about their own safety?

I will never forgive the officers of the Metropolitan Police Department, US Capitol Police, who failed to bear witness to what they experienced on January sixth. I believe wholeheartedly that had there been hundreds of officers lined up to testify about their experience instead of four, that we may not be in this position that we are today. That being said, it doesn't just stop at the law enforcement officers. It stops at every American. It stops at anyone who has been diversely affected by Donald Trump and his surrogates and supporters, and anyone who has seen their neighbor aversely affected by Donald Trump and his surrogates, and who refuse to step up, speak out. I would hope that journalists seize this moment and refuse to allow anyone in Congress or any elected official to escape taking a side on these pardons.

Can you tell me what else you're doing today? You've already gone to file the protective order, is that right? Are you on your way to do that?

I'm on my way to the courthouse now to file the protective order. After that, I am going to go with my ex-wife and help her It's her first firearms.

Oh, wow.

This is very real for us. I don't know if you followed some of the incidents involving my mother, but she's been swatted. She's received threats. I've been confronted in public places and threatened. She recently had someone throw a bag of feces on her while she was out raking the leaves in her front yard. This is very real. Unfortunately, law enforcement has been feckless in its ability or attempts to protect me and my family.

I don't get it. I'm on the outside. I've never been in law enforcement, but how can cops- I already know It's your question, Alex, and I'm going to answer it for you.

The idea that police officers in this country, law enforcement officers, are stewards of the Constitution is bullshit. I was not a steward of the Constitution. I didn't subvert it, but I looked at it as an impediment in doing my job. My job was to put bad guys in bad places. The American law enforcement officer responds in a positive way when Donald Trump says things like, We're going to suspend the Constitution, and we're going to let you loose in these communities. We're going to get rid of crime in a day. We're going to let you go out there and do your job, which is just a dog whistle for beat the shit out of everybody that doesn't comply. That's why you can't rely on police officers and police departments to protect you in this age of government lawlessness.

It's staggering to me that the people who assaulted law enforcement are being pardoned, and standing law enforcement is okay with that. I don't get it. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but it's still just an alignment between law enforcement and Trump that seems real unbreakable if they can get with this.

Listen, my friend at the Washington Post asked Chief Pamela Smith at the Metropolitan Police Department to comment on this. You know what her response was? No comment. The chief of the Metropolitan Police Department in Washington, DC, whose officers were violently assaulted by these individuals, has no comment. And it's all fear. It's the fear of Donald Trump taking office and what retribution lies in store for me if I simply speak the truth and say that this is an outrage? Well, this is that example of evil exists and persists when good men do nothing. America is doing nothing.

We reached out to Michael Fanon the day after that phone call. He told us that the process to seek protective orders was a lot more difficult than anything he had expected. And to carry them out, he would have to find the location for each individual he was concerned about and serve them papers in person. And even then, the protective order would only last two weeks. He told our producers, quote, that America simply doesn't give a shit about justice. January sixth was a profoundly devastating moment for American democracy. The peaceful transfer of power once a sacrosanct part of our unique system of self-governance was trampled. And what's clear this week is that the fracture that began that day, the tear in the fabric of our democracy, is nowhere close to being repaired. With With Trump's elevation as the 47th President, the opportunity to degrade not just systems and institutions, but the truth itself, those opportunities will continue to present themselves in ways we can't yet imagine. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. You'll be able to find us in the Alex Wagner Tonight podcast feed, or just search Trumpland with Alex Wagner.

To get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad-free, just subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content you won't want to miss out on, especially as this new administration gets underway. Trumpland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs, along with Julia DiAngelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jamaris Perez. Our crew is Enrique Lareal on audio and Liam Lee and Greg Pupura on camera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is our technical director. Matthew Alexander is the executive producer of Alex Wagner tonight, and Ayesha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

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