Transcript of JRE MMA Show #187 with Robert Whittaker New

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All right, what's up, Robert? Good to see you, brother.

What's happening? Thank you so much for having me, and I want to thank you for last night, you know.

Oh, my pleasure.

Yes, glad you had a good time. Seeing the show was just unbelievable. It was my first time at a comedy club.

Ever?

Ever.

Oh wow.

And, um, Yeah, it blew my mind.

There's some good comedy clubs in Australia. In Sydney, they have the Comics Lounge. That's a great spot.

Yeah, no, I've heard of them. I just never found the time to—

Yeah. Oh, I get it.

Try and juggle it.

I don't know how the fuck you guys have time for anything, you know? And you have a bunch of kids, married, like an actual life outside of fighting.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I don't know how you have any time.

Like, that's kind of the balancing act, isn't it? It's like, that's why you see— so I have nothing but respect for the guys that, that I think the reason why a lot of guys don't hang in there and fight for any longer amount of years is because life goes on around it. And from when I started, like 20, I had no kids, to when I'm now married with 6 kids and mortgages and life, you know, you kind of juggle it around, just balancing act.

What a big shift. 20, single, wild man just out there fighting, and now here you are, 6 kids, mortgage. businesses. Like, you got this supplement thing you're doing now with Musashi. You got your own supplement line. So it's a lot of work, man. It's a lot, a lot of activity, a lot of things going on, a lot of balls juggling.

Yeah, you gotta, gotta stay busy though, right? It's like idle hands, especially with something— yeah. And you'd get this like when it's like with performing performance sports and like the, the guillotine's kind of always over your head, right? So you just kind of always got to stay busy, keep moving. It's like a shark, otherwise you just kind of drown.

Oh, for sure, especially in combat sports, especially when you consider the fact that even in the, the, the outlier end, you only have a certain amount of time. Like, the true outliers in the sport— I think one of the true outliers in the sport right now is Jared Cannonier. He's one of the outliers because that dude is— how old is he now? 41, 42, somewhere. How old is Jared Cannonier, young Jamie? 42. Yeah, still shredded.

Like anybody's business.

Still shredded, still works out like a fucking demon, still has insane cardio and drive, still wins fights in the trenches. Yeah, like that fight with Gregory Rodriguez. He was getting blasted in that first round. He looked bad. Yes, comes on and wins it in the trenches and stops him.

Even when he loses, it's not like Not by much. Yeah, it's not much at all. Like when he lost to RoboCop, it was like—

When did he lose to him? Did he lose to him? Because he just beat him recently.

Did he? Yeah. Who did he lose to then?

Because Gregory Rodriguez is RoboCop, so he just stopped him recently. He was getting beaten up in the first round, and RoboCop is one of those guys.

It was like a kind of controversial stoppage. I forget who it was.

Mm-hmm. Oh, I know who you're talking about. It wasn't him. It was— God, what was the— what was the one that— I think it was Imavov.

Maybe, maybe.

I think Imavov was the— go back to that, please.

Look at the amount of fights he's had since then. That's the one that's in my head fresh.

Yeah, I don't remember the one that was a controversial stoppage. I'm pretty sure it was Imavov. 90% sure.

Michael Page was a bad fight for him. Yeah,

that was a bad fight.

Michael Page seems like the most annoying guy to fight ever.

Oh dude, well, first of all, when he was at— I think 170 is really his weight class, and he's also another guy that's like, he's 40 now or 39, you know. When he was at 170, fucking good luck. Good luck even touching that cat. Too fast. Too much movement.

He kept his speed at 185 too.

He did. Well, I think the thing about 185 though is the grapplers. Yeah, if they get a hold of him, it's just a different world. Yeah, you know, because that's the only guy that ever beat him in the UFC was Ian Garry, and the way he did it was by grappling.

Yeah, you know, and just counter-striking, setting up his shots a little bit.

He's just— I've always said, I said it from early on, that I think that that's a missing link in MMA is point fighting. These guys who really know how to do that style and then learn the other things. Yeah. Because that style is so— it's— you cover so much distance so quickly, and they're so good at avoiding shots and then leaping in, and they're so good at timing and scoring. And if you could score with one shot like those guys do, they leap in and score with one. If you're a good combination fighter, once you connect once, then the other shots can flow from that if you develop that style on top of that original point fighting style.

100%. And like, the, the huge factor in all this is like, they're such small gloves. Yeah, a touch can stop you.

Yep.

Like, that's all you need. And that's kind of been my approach with how I— my fight style is just to be fast. Be fast, just get— just land my hands.

Well, you have a very similar style in a lot of ways. Like, you're very wide stance, You have a lot of— you blitz a lot, you leap in and leap out, very fast and agile. Yeah, I feel like that's a great style also to like avoid the— like some of these fights, some guys, like you see these fights where they just like fucking stand right in front of each other, and some guys thrive on it, you know, it's like that's, that's their thing. They like to just stand in the pocket and blast it out.

But for how long?

I know.

You know who— and tell me if you think he's an outlier as well— is that King Green.

Oh,

God. Super outlier. Because, like, I wasn't on his wagon, but then, then he changed his name. It's like he started going downhill and, like, everyone was just like, okay, he's going to fade into obscurity. You know, let's leave it at that. He changes his name, starts piecing people up. Yeah, winning by TKOs. And you're like, he's back. I'm so back.

At 40.

Yeah,

I know. He's— well, he just has a real love of the game. He really does love fighting.

Again, he loves evasion fighting. Mm-hmm. Right.

And weird style, hands down. And you think he's there and the punches are coming at weird angles. Yeah, he's popping you from all sorts of— and talking shit the entire time. Like, I can't believe this guy's talking shit to me.

I've never understood guys that can do that. Like Holland.

Oh, he's one of the best.

I remember I was watching— I think I was doing some research for the next card and he was setting up a basketball game with one of the guys, one of the guys he was fighting. Like, It just blows my mind. I don't know how you can get in that headspace, 'cause when I'm in there, I'm on the roller coaster of pain. Like, yeah, I'm just angry.

Well, he's having fun.

Yeah.

And you know, you said something interesting last night. You said like, a happy Robert is a fucking dangerous Robert. Yeah. We were talking about Carlos Prates and how Carlos Prates looks like he's always having fun in there. He's so relaxed. Yeah. And we were talking about his time in Thailand when he moved there, and he essentially had, over the course of like something like 6 years, he had 100 Muay Thai fights. and kickboxing fights, which is crazy.

That's wild because Muay Thai is so damaging on the body.

Oh, as hell. Yeah. But because of that, he developed this very loose, like, relaxed style. Like, very aggressive, but also just very comfortable inside of the octagon.

Yeah, like, he doesn't, he doesn't get that kind of fight-or-flight response anymore, right? He just turns up and And he's just accustomed to it. Yeah. He lives in that space. But because everyone's waiting— I guess not everyone. It's like everybody that— I don't know how to phrase it. It's like everybody that doesn't drink and smoke before a fight is waiting for it to catch up with him so they can justify why they don't drink and smoke, right? Because I guarantee if I started drinking and smoking before a fight, I'm gone. Like within seconds. Within seconds. I'm gassing on the walkout, and then I'll wake up in the Yeah,

that guy parties. I mean, he's smoking cigarettes the day of the fight.

The locker room. Yeah. People are like, you can't smoke back here. That's crazy. That's a crazy— like, this UFC staff must be bewildered, like, just to see him. And he's like, I think he said in one of his interviews, I trained really hard for this fight. I haven't drank for 2 weeks or something like that. I was like, yeah, good effort, man. Commitment.

I wonder how much of an edge that takes off of you physically. versus what it gives you psychologically to just be able to chill out every night.

Yeah, and I guess that's what we were discussing last night. What's the balance, the tipping point for that? Yeah. Because it's like, whilst he's happy and he's loose and limber and, you know, he feels invincible, like, there are detrimental effects to all this stuff he's doing. I don't— but then fighting is a funny sport, isn't it though? Because it's like, it's not like sprinting where you build up this machine to run at your maximum. There is so many variables working against you. And like, how many times have we seen just nobodies, out-of-shape dudes just come in but know how to throw a punch and just win by starching people? Yeah, it's like this. Yeah, it's just a funny sport.

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It's a crazy sport. And sometimes if you're not worried, even though you should be worried, that's a good thing. Yeah. Like there's guys that are— it's like ignorance is bliss. They come in just fucking wild haymakers that shouldn't land and they do land. And all of a sudden the guy's out, they got their arms up in the air and everybody's like, what the fuck just happened? That's crazy.

It happens. It happens too, too often. Yeah. Too often.

Especially with the little gloves.

Yeah. And I'm like, then I'm sweating and grinding away trying to get better. You get these guys that can just turn up and just, just touch of death people.

Yeah, well, there's that too. That's, that's interesting because you're a power puncher, you're a power kicker, but there's like, there's people that have a weird power, right? It's like, it doesn't even— like Pereira.

Ngannou power.

Yeah, Ngannou. Or, you know, there's Damian Pinaas. You know that dude?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jesus Christ.

Yes, yes. That guy, that's— Zubair.

Yeah, crazy power. Crazy power.

That Jiri fight, that last Jiri fight.

Blown out leg.

Oh my goodness. And Jiri, like, oh my goodness.

Jiri needs a psychologist. He needs someone to talk to him and say, we have to have strategies. Okay, you're a seek-and-kill fighter. When a guy's hurt, you can't be upset that he's hurt and then try to give him some concessions.

It was like he was part of an anime. I don't know, he was in his own show of like— and there was rain in the background. In his head, there was like rain in the background, and there's mud, and there's sweat.

Thunder!

He wasn't there. And then he like, ooh, hit him with that touch of death that he's got in that left hook, man.

That left hook is a whip.

Yes.

Such a whip, man. And what's really crazy is that is the only punch that's available if your other leg is blown out.

Yeah.

It's the only punch. Yeah. 'Cause you can pivot off that leg. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of crazy if you really think about it.

He's got one option. Yeah. Yeah, he's got one option, and he just—

So he's still moving around pretty decent even with a fucked-up leg. But then you see it, like, as he gets leg kicked, he stumbles back. He just can't move when he wants. Like, when he wants to move and he can control it, he's fine. But it's like chaotic defensive movements back and forth where you're, you know, you're shifting oddly on your legs. That's where a blown-out ACL Really fucks you. Was it his right leg or his left leg that was fucked up in that fight?

I want to say his leg.

I think it's his right because that would make sense why he could throw the left hook.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Because he could still pivot off that leg.

Yes. Oh, you see?

You see?

You see it pinned? But then like even when Yuri backs him to the fence, like Carlos has one punch there.

Yeah, that's it. Just the left hook.

One punch.

Like right here you could see like Yuri's

And Yuri's still in that space.

Oh, there it is. Well, Yuri in that— like, maybe I'm thinking about it differently because in that moment— so that's post the injury when Yuri realized he had the injury. But in that moment, it did look like Yuri was moving in for the kill. But you just— you can't throw caution to the wind with a guy like Carlos because Carlos Holmberg could just start you. Oh, one part. Yeah, that's where he blew his leg out.

You see, this is right, you see it go like, yeah, wobble.

Like, yeah, you see it like vibration through it. That's horrible.

That's especially, I think, very like, it's super vital as a light heavyweight as well. Like, the power of light heavyweights, and that's, that was my headspace moving in from middleweight, it's like everyone's got touch of death, right?

That's

why the fights, like, a lot of light heavyweight fights are out because they're still fast. Still fast enough to land, but they're just heavier guys, right? Bigger punches. And you just can't play games like that.

There's only a few guys that are like smaller, like Merzakanov is a good example of a guy who's been real successful. Yes. As a light heavyweight, as a smaller guy.

Azamat. Yeah, Azamat. Yes, yes, yes, yes. The guy that lost to Costa. Yeah. He's fighting actually this weekend.

He is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Against Reyes. Is he really 5'10?

Yeah, he's small for a light heavyweight. Yeah, and, and doesn't look ripped, like he carries around a lot of— but so skillful. Yes, he's so slick, man.

And aggressive with his shots.

Yeah, when, when you see Paulo Costa fight him at light heavyweight, you're like, Jesus, how come Paulo Costa wasn't a light heavyweight the whole time? Yeah, yeah, that's a guy where it just completely made sense where he went up to light heavyweight. I'm like, you look like a light heavyweight, especially

with his— like the few times he lost, he missed weight. And he was struggling for weight cuts and stuff. I feel like for a long period there, he was kind of finding his feet. And then he found his feet just in time to fight me. And he came out like with super cardio and like super quick.

Yeah, that was a great fight.

Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I got spinning heel kicked.

That was great. But you were one of the few dudes that I've ever seen get spinning heel kicked and survive it. You know, like that's a crazy kick to get cracked with.

Oh yeah, I'll take it. I'll take that. Because, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a funny kick too, because like it's so hard to prepare for because it's not a kick you can— for one, it's not a, it's not a kick he throws very often, right? You know, and, and it's not one you can really train in, in the workroom, right?

It's like, because you can't train at full clip.

Yeah, well, you can't pull it. Yeah. And how are you gonna— you can't pad it up or anything like that with moon boots, right? But, um, Yeah, it's— and even I remember, I remember being in there and seeing him start to do that turn. And there's that one split second, because I've never seen it before, where I'm like, what's going on? And then my legs are kind of doing funny, funny things. So

there's a moment where Michael Venom Page was talking about this crazy training partner that he has, this guy who was like elite in the gym but never quite could put it together in the cage. And He's sparring with him, and there's this weird moment where he's like, what is he doing? And he realizes he's doing a front flip to an ax kick. And as he's realizing it, he just instinctively does that and blocks it. But just completely on instinct. Like, why would you be expecting a guy to do a front flip to an ax kick?

It's like a rolling thunder, isn't it?

Dude, but it's crazy. No, that's like a wheel kick, but it's similar. But what this guy does, he does it to a heavy bag. Do you remember that guy's name, Jamie?

Um, he's got a video of someone doing that.

I don't, but— There's a video of him doing it. Well, that's, that's similar. That's Miguel Torres early in his UFC. That's who that is, right?

I guarantee you, if someone does this kick to me, I'm taking it straight between the eyes.

But this guy didn't do it with a roll. He did it— that's it. Michael Venom Page was talking about that guy. that this guy did— the way he could do it, he could do it on the bag and like hit the bag with a front flip ax kick. And I mean, who the fuck can do that, man?

Like, I'm, I'm blowing out both hamstrings trying to do this.

This is not available. Facebook's video thing sucks. Yeah, it does. Yeah. There's a video that he— there it is. There's the guy.

He lands on his feet!

Yes, dude! Watch that.

It's like a Street Fighter

It's— doesn't seem like it's a real move. Yeah, it doesn't seem like anybody could do it.

And it's fast.

Fast as fuck, dude. Fast as fuck. And the dude lands it— look at that— lands it as an ax kick. Yeah, and he practices it on the bag.

I'm taking that straight between your eyes. There is no way. Luckily for me, I don't think anyone in the light heavyweight division is gonna be doing that stuff.

There's the dude's name. Galore Bofando. Well, watch this guy. He's so fucking athletic, man. This is literally crazy.

Wow, he actually— he—

Oh God, these fucking pop-ups.

He—

fuck off with your pop-ups. I mean, I— there's levels, right? Like, I've always said that if you can get someone who's a gymnast and teach them— there he is right there. You can see it again. Watch, watch how he does this, man. This is fucking crazy.

Yeah,

that is so crazy.

But it would— what's crazy is like he lands and still lands on his feet.

Oh yeah, like a cat.

Yeah,

lands perfectly and then slides back into a perfect stance. Yeah, it's nuts.

Like, my knees are hurting watching him.

I know, dude. I hurt my back in the shower today. I worked out, I worked out, I hit the bag, I punched the bag, kicked the bag, had this great workout, and got in the sauna for 20 minutes, stretched out, feeling great. Got in the shower, taking a shower before the podcast. Went, ah,

it

happened. Doing something like in between my shoulder blades, doing nothing, just fucking washing myself.

Age creeps. I picked up— and I, I'm still a professional athlete. Like, I'm still— I'm still— I'm gunning for that title, right? Like, I'm gunning for the title still. And I picked up— I picked up one of my kids and I felt like a twinge in my lap. And I'm like, ooh, ooh, that's— you just age. Age creeps up on you.

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Well, it's also this— I think there's these little micro injuries that you're not totally aware of, and then you do something and they just give. Which makes sense because I was throwing a lot of left hooks today and a lot of left switch kicks. So it was like, I think I was just a lot on that side. Yeah, it was a lot of that side. And so just washing, I went, eh! It was just like, it was this draw, this draw. It's just so embarrassing to have a great hard workout, feel real good about yourself, got it in today.

Strong as hell.

Hurt myself washing. Hurt myself washing myself.

It's usually the way though, like I, I pick up so many silly injuries just trying to either play with the kids, for one, because I think once you're over 35, you can't go into a dead sprint, like from a start, from a stop position, right, without a 30-minute warm-up. Right. I need to warm up my hamstrings and everything before I'm doing this, because I guess when I'm— and if your kids challenge you to a race, especially if you've got boys, You gotta, you gotta beat them, right? You can't let your boys beat you. You have to.

Last time I blew out my hamstring was racing with my 15-year-old daughter in Italy. I blew my hamstring out.

15's getting a bit old too. Like, they're getting faster. I know, especially girls.

She's light.

My boys are all under 11 still, so I can hobble along. I don't need the full warm-up, you know. But it's— yeah, that's— I need a full hamstring warm-up stretch out before.

I remember reading that Muhammad Ali would— he would warm up for a full hour before his workouts. He had a whole system that he did. And one time I did this thing with Daniel Tosh for his TV show where I like trained him to take a punch from Manny Pacquiao. Manny was being nice, he didn't really hit him. He kind of like just gave him a little thump. But anyway, we're in the boxing gym and I got to see Manny work out.

Yeah.

And he spends a crazy amount of time warming up. Yeah, there's all these like band workouts that he does. Everything is like very systematic. They're stretching him and moving him. He doesn't just get out there and pow pow pow pow pow pow pow. He starts real slow, gets everything warmed up. And

I think I've seen it, like you can get mesmerized watching his warm-up. And then I think also his, his ab program. Have you seen his ab program? It never stops. Yeah, I'm like a 10 crunches and I'm all right, because, because if I'm getting body shot and I'm not wearing it, it doesn't matter how strong your abs are, you're going down.

Bro, he's a very unusual guy.

He's an outlier as well.

Yeah, in a lot of ways. You know, he's a really good pool player.

Is he?

Oh yeah, like a professional level pool player.

I love hearing quirky, like, secret super talents people have that you don't pick up on.

Pool is gigantic in the Philippines. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it is way bigger than it is in America. It's everywhere. and he has his own pool hall in his compound. So he has a compound in his home. I mean, a full pool hall with like 15 tables and all these people running around and everyone's playing and they're gambling all over the place. Everyone's gambling. They're all gambling. And while he's playing— this is so crazy— so he's playing pool, and while he's playing, while his opponent's shooting, he's signing autographs. He has people just bring him shit to sign so they could sell it. It's like boxing gloves, pool cues, posters. He's signing things. It's your shot, Manny. Oh, he goes over and plays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then He's playing a game of chess. So he's got a game of chess going on, he's sitting down playing chess, he makes his move, his opponent makes his move, runs over, runs a few balls, runs over in between that signing things down. This is exactly his room. So look, he's got his chessboard that's right by the pool table, then he's making shots, and then he goes and sits down, and then in the middle of that he's signing things.

It, it's Fucking insane to watch, man.

I'm getting anxiety watching.

He's just constantly moving. Doing his thing. And the pool room is just filled with people. They're all moving around, but he plays real good. Yeah, like— Like, real good.

You know, if he's turning up with a glove, you're just like, don't bet on that table.

But it's like, he knows how to play. It's not just like pocketing balls. Like, he gets excellent position. But like I said, pool in the Philippines is gigantic. It's like, it's a huge sport. And he's, you know, deeply involved in it. Like, he has his own pool hall that's in the Philippines, like a huge place. And, you know, they do a big pool tournament with him every year. And

where does he get the time? And then he still works out full-time.

Yeah, he still works out. Like, he's still trying to fight.

I think he boxed this year, didn't he?

He did, yeah. And he's trying to fight someone like world-class right now. He's trying to get like a real like world-class fight instead of like fighting, you know, you think when a guy gets into his late 40s, probably, you know, have some like, like Mayweather's doing.

Yeah.

Yeah. He fights influencers, MMA fighters, shit like that. Yeah. Not Manny. Manny's looking to get another world title fight.

Yeah.

How? Like,

why not?

I guess. Yeah. I mean, I guess he just never lost whatever it is.

If you're playing pool and chess at the same time, Just study that guy's brain. It's not a stretch.

And super accommodating, like signing all these autographs for people. Like everybody's running over to him with boxes of shit for him to sign so they could go sell it.

I'm so— I'm surprised at how many fighters in general like chess. I know it's a tactical, it's a strategy game, but it's just, it surprised me. Like the guys, like I'll go, like I'll go to the gym and I'll train with some of the boys and They are just, they are ogres with gloves on. Right. You know what I mean? Right. But then, but then in their downtime, they're just playing online chess and they're ranked like high. Really? And I'm like, dude, you're a knucklehead. I saw you open a can of Spam for lunch. What are you doing? And it just surprises me. You can't always judge a book by its cover, right?

Absolutely.

And so I've thought about getting— do you play chess?

No, I don't.

Okay. Yeah, I thought about getting into it, and then I went on like a deep rabbit hole of like the game of chess and the art of strategy and all of that. And then I realized like there's just too much to learn, right? It's like the first 20 moves or something like that are already like in motion. Like everyone knows at a decent, decent clip, everyone knows the first 20 moves because that's what you're supposed to do, right? And then everyone starts going off on different things, and I'm just like, oh, it's too much for me.

It's a long road, and If you get addicted to it, that's gonna suck up all your time because you could just hop online and play people at any— or your phone, any time of the day. You could play the computer, you could play real people. So it's just too nuts.

Yeah, yeah, but

it's just— but I get it. I really do get it. I understand it. And you could like really underestimate someone's intelligence just based on what they look like. They just look like a giant brute. Like, you ever talked to Josh Barnett?

No, I haven't.

Former heavyweight champion, one of the smartest people I've ever met. Super smart. Quotes Dostoevsky. Like, he's like, off the top of his head, he's quoting these great works of literature. Yeah, no way. And studies warriors and, yeah, studies history. Knows a lot about whiskey, makes his own whiskey. Like, brilliant guy.

Yeah.

And, you know, you look at him, he's like, this is this fucking brute who's really into pro wrestling.

Oh, really? Yeah. Well, the athletic side of that sport is just unbelievable. Oh, nuts. Like, these guys are elite athletes.

Right.

Like, 'cause you have to be, otherwise you'd kill yourself.

And those guys are taking a pounding that people don't recognize because they're on the road, you know, hundreds of days a year doing these shows in these local stadiums. So these people come out to see them, and they're doing these big pro wrestling shows, but you don't— no one thinks about the fact, like, that's real damage. You're getting body slammed. You're getting a concussion, probably. You're definitely getting some CTE. Yeah. 100 fucking percent.

Yeah. And then they hop on the bus and they go to the next state and do it again.

Right over—

And do it again.

Right over the fucking bridge. Back at it. It's crazy. It's so hard on the body. All the old-school pro wrestlers that I've brought in here to talk to, they're all fucked up. Yeah, everyone's just— Walking with limps and stuff. Yeah, well, before he died, Hulk Hogan— I met him once years ago. Like, I didn't meet him, but I said hi to him outside of a cigar bar in Beverly Hills. He was fucking gigantic. He was huge. I met him again when he did my pod— well, I met him another time when I interviewed him for Spike TV. He was only slightly smaller then. And then I met him again when he did my podcast, and he was significantly smaller, 'cause he keeps getting these fusions on his back, right? So he's had, like, 8 or 9— I shouldn't laugh. It's not funny. It's sad.

It's fucked up. I'm just picturing him, like, every time you meet him, he's just like—

Well, it's 'cause— think about the space. That's why old men shrink, you know? One of the reasons why you shrink is you're losing disc space. That's why I've gotten shorter over the years. Your bones shrink up and go— Yeah. Yeah, you get disc decompression, or compression, you know, it's called disc degeneration disease. Yeah, but what it really is is just pressure. Yeah, it's just all that weight, especially for weightlifters. They all have disc compression. So his thing was he would jump up in the air and drop down on his ass. Yeah, he would land on his ass and elbow you. Yeah, so all that weight, 300-plus pounds, boom, on his ass every night. Boom. Right through his spine. His whole spine is going, eee!

Eee!

Eee! And so he had to get his whole back— his whole back was one rod.

In recent years, have you fallen to your ass at any point? Like, unprepared? It's like, I lay there for a while. I feel it all the way up to the top of my base of my skull.

Yeah, it's not good.

I can't imagine what sort of damage— well, I can imagine. You can see it.

Those guys all get fused up. Yeah, yeah, they all do. It's just there's, there's no getting around— Kurt Angle was here. His whole neck is just— Yes. Yo Romero. Yo Romero's neck is fused to his skull. Another outlier. Another outlier. Dude, you told me that when you fought him that you said it was like kicking metal.

It's— I've never felt that way. I've never thrown a calf kick and come off second best. Like, like, I calf kicked him and that was the last calf kick I did. He didn't check it. Like, it just hurt. It just hurt. He's just— he's built different. He's just built different. His body is just built different. That's why he's— how old is he? 49? 49. He just had a bare-knuckle fight with Darren Till.

And he should have won.

Props to Darren Till for taking

that

fight. Bare-knuckling Yoel Romero.

And he got dropped too.

Yeah, it's just— yeah, big fan of Till. Big fan of Till. I think he's doing great in boxing. I think he's found his niche.

I think He's had knee issues, like significant knee issues over the years that have really fucked with him when it comes to grappling. Yeah. And I think, you know, what we got to see in his best in the UFC, like the Cowboy Cerrone fight, is his striking. His striking is very elite. He moves really well. And I think because of the knee issues, boxing is just a way better choice. Yeah. You don't have to take into account the grappling. Yeah. You're not getting kicked in the knees. You know, it's just— I just think his knees are pretty fucked up.

I think that's why you see a lot of like the older Guys that weren't really taken advantage of wrestling-wise early in their career. But as they get older, they start like they start getting taken down, held down, beaten by decision, or taken, put on their back and kind of submitted there or kept there. And I think that's because I know this firsthand. I can still do it because I've just been lucky, really. But, and genetically like that, that's a thing people don't realize. 100%. Like, hard work. Hard work will get you very, very far. But there is like talent and genetics are a factor. 100%. Huge factor.

Jon Jones is the ultimate merging of talent and genetics.

Like, yeah, exactly. Like, you can't— if you were going to build someone in a lab, yeah, he'd come out like Jon Jones, man. Because

talent, intelligence, and genes. Yeah. Like all those together.

He's the perfect fighter.

Yeah.

Like the perfect fighter. But yeah, I think as, like, as you get older, your knees, your joints start hurting, injuries are more prevalent. You can't wrestle on the mats anymore as much as you used to. You don't have that mat time. Right. So that when you get in there with these younger guys and they take you down or they start pushing on the wrestling, you just, you're just not there for it. Right. And I think, I also think that a big part of wrestling is what you do in the first second of the engagement. of the takedown. It's like how that fighting, like that fight. That's why you see a lot of young fighters that aren't— don't have a huge pedigree in wrestling, but they get out of positions, they keep fighting, they work their way back up because they're fighting and fighting and fighting, which is another thing that kind of dims a little bit as you get older.

Yes. You

know what I mean?

I think there's also the protecting of your joints, right? Whereas you're young, you just explode into things. When you're older, if you've had a few meniscus surgeries or an ACL reconstruction, you don't explode into things haphazardly anymore. You think about it. You can't. Yeah, you think about it. You position yourself before you push off. Even just instinctively, you don't trust your knee.

Subconsciously.

Whereas you're young, you're just fucking moving. You're not even thinking about your knees. You're scrambling, you're trying to get up. You're fucking— you're not thinking of ever protecting yourself. Whereas you get a few surgeries, you get a few blown-out joints, you start protecting yourself. And then there's these certain moments where you're like, look, I could explode, but I might not get the best out of it. Let me take a break here. Let me go to my back and try to work it out. work myself back in a position to stand up again.

Yeah, and that's where the problems come. Like, that's how you get held down for the rest of the round and lose that round. Or what?

Dricus and Khamzat, like, that was one of the crazy examples of the gap in wrestling. It was gigantic, and Khamzat was the absolute, like, worst-case scenario opponent for him.

I, I— people don't give it that fight and what Chimaev did to Dricus enough, like, thought or space, because that was unbelievable in a championship-level fight to hold down someone like Dricus Duhaime, who couldn't do anything. He couldn't do anything. And he's a big, strong guy. At the worst case, you just flop around and push someone, you know? Right. But he just kept getting put in that crucifix and held down, like, taken advantage of. It was Wild.

When was the last time you saw someone in a championship fight defending their world title get put in the crucifix 3 fucking times?

Never.

Never. It's such a hard move to get a guy in in the first place. To get a guy in 3 times, and a guy who's a fucking bulldog like Trickett— that guy's huge.

And it's not even— it wasn't like it was just in the first round. No, he just kept doing it throughout the whole fight. Things are getting sweaty, people are getting tired, and he still just kept getting put in. I can't I can barely hold people in a crucifix in a gi.

Right, right.

It's like, right, to do it at that, like, there, then that's—

I know, it's like people want everything to be chaos and blood.

Yes.

Like, you know that dude who just got cut, Farid Basharat?

Yes.

Undefeated.

Yeah, yeah.

Undefeated, got cut. And last time I talked to him was inside the Octagon, was the last fight of his career. He's like, you know, when I was like, I'm sure you're gonna get another contract. Like, I think I said that to him in the octagon because he was saying it's his last fight. He's undefeated.

Didn't age well.

I, I don't like that. I don't like that thinking that you have to be uber excited.

He's got a brother as well, right?

I believe, and I'm not sure.

Is that

Fareed Basharat? See if

he has a brother as well. If that's the—

The guy's very skillful. Yeah, obviously he's undefeated. And they just decided that they didn't like his style.

Yeah, yeah, oh, he's

a PFL fighter. Okay, that's why. They just decided— I don't— okay, I'm talking out of school. I didn't talk to Dana or Sean Shelby or Mick Maynard. I don't know what happened. I don't know. But I didn't like it. I don't like when a guy gets cut that wants to keep fighting in the UFC. He's undefeated. Just because you think he's boring? Well, put him in with someone who's fucking exciting. Put him in with someone who pushes him and makes it a crazy fight. Like, if a guy's fighting and winning, you keep fighting and you keep winning. Yeah, like, are we saying that Khamzat can't fight in the UFC anymore because of the Dricus fight where he won the title, which a lot of people thought was boring? Yeah, I didn't think it was boring, but a lot of people thought it was boring.

Yeah,

his brother had the— it wasn't undefeated, I don't think, but had the same issue in February. Won and—

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

With the UFC?

Yeah, with the UFC.

So he had one fight?

I don't know how many fights.

I think he had a few.

In the UFC?

Yeah, he won through Dana White's Contender Series and had a few fights.

Man, I don't like that. Yeah, I don't like guys not getting offered contracts because they don't like their style. You're— everyone's trying to win. You're trying to win a fight. Fights are fucking complicated. And this idea that you're supposed to just be entertaining and put your brain on the line and ignore your skill set. Ignore your skill set, which is to avoid damage and to fight intelligently. Know when to engage. Know when your gas tank is on E and you got to play it off a little bit and move around a little bit. Let your body recover. Like, this is what the game is. It's winning.

If you look at your contracts as well, it's like that to-show-and-to-win bonus. Like, you, you get more money winning. Right, right. Like, great example.

Good point. Very good point.

That's the whole thing. If I could toe stomp my way to victory, I would. I would. Like, if I could, if I could do what Chimaev does, like, I'm sometimes I'm jealous of these guys that just can just wrestle, right? Right. And just because they take no damage, no damage, and they just take people down and destroy them there. And then, and the longevity of that is much longer until like that, that curse hits them where they can't get a takedown and then they never get a takedown again.

Yeah, I think that curse is probably what we're talking about too, like a buildup of injuries and all these things over time.

Like Usman, right? He's a guy that stopped taking downs. Good example of injuries as well.

Very good example of injuries. However, he did beat Joaquin Buckley.

He did.

And Joaquin Buckley, fucking dangerous as hell, man. And especially then, and Joaquin was on the rise. Did you see the Mike Mallott victory this last week? Holy shit.

That was cold.

Holy shit.

That was cold.

Molina looks good, dude. He looks— it's crazy that that dude started his career at featherweight.

Really?

Yeah.

Well,

yeah, he was a featherweight. I think Akeem Dawoodoo stopped him.

He looked bigger than Joaquin.

He did.

Yeah.

Yeah, he did. He's big. And you know, he looks like a real welterweight. Well, until you look at guys like Michael Morales and you're like, okay. Like, what's this size?

He's not, he's not the means. He's like a special case. He's just like, he is the perfect example of weaponized physique.

Yeah,

like, he's just, he's young, he's hungry, he's, he's a genetic freak. You can see it. He makes the sacrifices to get to the weight division. He likes to fight. He can bang, he can wrestle, he can, you know what I mean? He just, he's just there to scrap. There's a That's an ugly fight.

And he's the biggest outlier in terms of weight, in terms of size. Well, another one was, uh, Atiba Gautier. He's another one that weighs 230. 231 was what he weighed before he started his weight cut, and he got down to 185. But he fought Roman Kopylov, and Kopylov stopped him in the first round.

Kopylov's got good hands.

Fucking good, dude. He's, he's slick. Jack Slack, who's a great MMA analyst on Instagram and YouTube and all that shit, he did a great breakdown of of the positioning and, you know, how Roman Kopylov was leading him into it and setting up shots and set up that left hook. There's a few guys who've done some great breakdowns, but it's so skillful, man. Yeah. And that was like a good example of like a super powerhouse, enormous guy who's gigantic for the weight class just gets pieced up by a guy who's just slicker.

Yeah. And then Kopylov's not like a physically intimidating dude, right? Like, he kind of looks like a desk jockey.

I know. Well, except for his nose. His nose looks like he had a fight with a bear.

Yeah, a death jockey that visits the bar overnight.

Bro, his nose is destroyed. But I mean, that's just— that's—

it was, it was, it was that fight with, um, with, uh, Costa that I saw Costa and I was like, Costa's found his feet. Like, yes, like he was just working that body. Yeah, pieced him up. Such a good—

when Costa is on He's a motherfucker. I think he went through a dark time after the Izzy fight. I think the pressure of fighting for the title— I'm just speculating— overwhelmed him. Obviously he had some injuries too because he had red suction marks all over his calf, which is a real bad thing to go into the octagon with. I mean, put some makeup on that shit because Izzy sees that, he's gonna immediately kick that spot.

He's a smart guy.

Yeah, he's gonna go, oh, you got a problem with Like, nobody gets the suction marks on the calf. And he just got pieced up so bad in that fight and stopped. And then Izzy dry-humped him, which was hilarious. And after that, I think he was mindfucked for a while.

Yeah, it was hilarious. But it was also, oh, dude, this is so dirty.

So dirty.

So dirty. It's like this— it was cold, man.

Cold-blooded.

Yeah, man, like, too cold. I can't BM that much. Like, that's crazy. Like, he's just had a couple good ones, like the Pereira, when he knocked out Pereira that second time.

Oh yeah, man.

And then the Arrow thing, that's got to be one of the coolest sendoffs.

I think the greatest fight celebration of all time. Yeah. Especially when you consider what just happened. Yeah. That dude had knocked him out 2 fights in a row. Yeah. 2 fights in a row, and then he finally got him in a fight where he was getting fucked up. Yeah. His leg was getting fucked up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was not winning.

His calf was getting destroyed. He's like, this motherfucker already got me. He said, I was thinking to myself, damn, this motherfucker already got my leg.

He did that thing where he was wearing that leash for the whole camp. Remember, for all the interviews, he had that leash on him.

Did he really?

Yeah, dude. And then he took it off just before he fought. Like, oh, that's— oh, he's off the leash. He's such a weeb sometimes. I love the guy now. Like, we're good friends, but he's a weeb sometimes.

What was it like losing to him by knockout and then coming back and taking him to the limit. Because we were talking about this last night, your second fight, was it a split decision?

I'm not sure. I'm not too sure.

It was a very close fight.

It was very close.

It was a very close fight.

I feel like if they scored takedowns like they used to back, back in the day, I might have got my hand raised. But

yeah, takedowns don't mean as much anymore unless you do something with them.

You can win off your back if you— the guy on top doesn't do anything.

That's how Bas Rutten won the world title when he beat Kevin Randleman. Kevin Randleman took him down, but Bas was fucking him up from his back, just elbowing him, blasting him from his back. It was very controversial because everybody's like, no, the guy on top, he's winning. Yeah, but Bas Rutten was doing mad damage from the bottom.

Yeah, like, it's— and you also see like some guys can generate— like, what about when Holland knocked out Jacare off the back?

Oh yeah. Yeah. That was wild. Reached up and hit him with a fucking right hook.

Like, how? How did he generate enough power? I know. Every time I'm on my back and I'm trying to fight up, I get fed.

I think—

I get fed and then I gas, and then, then that's where I'm staying for the next 4 minutes or whatever.

I've seen someone else knock someone out from their back too with a hook. God, I forget who it was, but he was in— he was on top of someone. Or someone was on top of him. I don't remember if it's his guard or if he was mounted, and he throws a right hook and the guy just like sinks and falls on top of him. Like, it is possible. Yeah, I've seen weird things.

Yeah, that's why everyone loves this sport, is because crazy stuff happens. Oh yeah, like it is just, it is just a melting pot of athletes.

Like when Sean Sheraff just knocked out Gable Steveson, like, in the first round with the first punch, like a 2,400-to-1 underdog.

Yeah.

Minus 2,400 underdog.

That's crazy.

Crazy.

Like, that would've been— and you know there were punters that put $10 on, like, just threw $10 on. 100%. And they're just laughing. Absolutely. He made a lot of people's days. But

minus 2,400 is crazy, and then he loses in 11 seconds.

I was, I was thinking after I saw him fight the fight before, like, he was a bit reckless with his ability to go in, like, in— and especially in such like the big boys division. Yeah, like everyone's got touch of death there.

Well, he's also a guy who— I know he is a heavyweight, he— I know he weighs like 240 or whatever he weighs, but you look at him and you're like, that guy could make 205, like 100%. 205 is not outside of his wheelhouse,

you know. I think Because he's, he's, he's late.

Yeah, this is Kevin.

This was also a hook. It's the only one I can find. He's talking to him while it's happening.

Always. He's always talking to people.

He's saying, I had this dream when I was 17, and then throws a hook and knocks him out.

Is that what he said? I had a dream when I was 17.

I'll see if you can hear it.

Is it on right now? You can hear it. Yeah, let me hear it. Put the headphones on. Oh, he said that was nice. It's nice. Boy, I had a dream about this. I was probably like 7 feet off the cage, you know what I mean? Nobody

talk like that in the middle of a fight. Even Khabib talking, he talks a lot lower than that. Kevin Holland's almost screaming.

Jacare is— he was already badly hurt then.

That's the only one I could find when I was looking at it.

That finish was crazy.

It was the first punch had him fucked up.

Yeah, he— and he didn't recover because he was, he was there for a minute. So

he must have hurt him bad.

Yeah, but then, then the rest of it was terrible to watch.

Well, he said to Joaquin Buckley, he goes, you got a booger on your nose, and then he knocked him out. He's like, hey man, you got a booger on your nose, and then he hits him with a straight right, knocks him out.

Yeah, I, I don't know what I'd do if someone was talking that much to me in a fight.

Well, Frank Shamrock had a fight with Nick Diaz in Strikeforce, and he said after the fight, he goes, it's so fucked up because this guy is talking shit to you and you're like, I can't believe he's doing this. I can't believe he's talking shit to me. Because he's, he's Frank Shamrock. He's a legend. He was a former UFC champion, like a real pioneer. Yeah, like a complete martial artist. He was like one of the very first. Yeah, like, started with boots on. Yeah, I mean, he did the Pancrase style when you open slaps. I mean, he was a real pioneer. So for him— and Nick Diaz is like, what, bitch? What, bitch? What you gonna do, bitch? He's just popping him and talking to him. You don't get to breathe because he's not hitting you full blast. Yeah, he's like, here, put some volume.

I love how he used to put his hands down by his hips.

He's just talking to him constantly.

I've always been the biggest fan of his style.

Oh, Nick has a crazy style.

It just looks so much fun.

It looks fun. He's relaxed. Like, even while he's doing this, he's never straining. Yeah, like all of his punches are like 50%. Everything's 50%. But because of that, he can throw them for days. Forever. For days.

And then, and then he gets to that point where he's not even breathing and he's just, he's just beating on a gassed guy.

Yes. You know what my favorite fight of him ever is? Paul Semtex Daley.

Oh yeah?

Yeah, in Strikeforce. Semtex had maybe the craziest power in the history of the division. Semtex would just put people into orbit. He had crazy knockouts. And these dudes just went to war, and he dropped Nick a couple of times, but Nick brought him into a pace where he was gonna have to sprint for the entire 5 minutes. And by the end of like 3 minutes in, you see he's like, I can't do this anymore. And then Nick just overwhelms him and stops him.

Just lactic overload.

Yeah, see if you can find that. He's fought some crazy fights.

He had some—

There it is. So bring us up earlier in the fight.

They were wrestling a little bit.

Yeah, but in the beginning, it's like you see the power of Semtex. Like crazy left hook. Left hook and a left uppercut would just put people into orbit. Just terrifying power.

And he's just one of those guys with power. Oh, we were saying, but like, you're like, you're born with it. I swear you're born with it. 100%. It's not like he's doing a gym workout, like explosiveness routine.

You can certainly enhance your power. But I think the type of power that, like, Paul Daley has, or, you know, like a Thomas Hitman Hearns type power, or Deontay Wilder, he's the best example. You're just born with that. You got a gift from God. God gave you a gift to put people into orbit. And this fight just is this crazy example of his cardio. You know, Nick Diaz has swam back from Alcatraz, I think, 7 times. It might be more now.

I remember seeing that. Like, he's really big, even during camps, like, really big into triathlons. Yeah, like that's why— how he stays fit. Like, because you, you can't, you can't get this or sustain this level of cardio unless cardio is your lifestyle. Yes. Like, this is— this, this— at this point, cardio is your hobby.

Yeah, it's a different thing, right?

Just like Merab.

So he's not trying to blitz people ever. He's not trying to hit you with one big bomb and trying to— he's just cooking you. Yeah. And he's, he's bringing you up to a pace that he knows that you can't sustain, but he does every day.

Do you reckon that's what burnt him out? Because I swear it's got to be like Like, if every fight you turn up and you're like, all right, 4 rounds to go before I got you, like, you know, you got 20 minutes of cooking a guy, you know what I mean?

Well, it could be that, but it's also, you got to take into consideration all the years that he's been fighting. Yeah. So I've called Nick's first fight in the UFC in 1990— no, 2001, I think. 2001. I'm pretty sure it was 2001. I'm pretty sure that was the first time I worked for the UFC in the new era. You know, '97 I worked for the old era before Zuffa. Yeah. And then it was him versus Robbie Lawler, and he was like 20 years old.

Yeah, that was so good. Such a— he had, he had some wars. He just got dropped so bad.

It

was 2003. Okay, that's 23 years ago. Yeah. That's crazy. That is a long time to be getting punched in the head. Yeah, and I think that is a giant factor, especially

with his style. His style was very much in your face. He's gonna eat a couple, but he's gonna give you 4 for every, every one you land.

Yeah, and he did a lot of sparring with— what's that?

I take that back. That was just the UFC. He did— his first fight was August 31st, 2001, for IFC Warriors.

And was 2003— what event was that?

Jeremy Jackson.

No, what was the number? UFC—

weird, that's—

does it say it? I would have

swore it was 44.

UFC 44. And what, what, I—

19, 2000— or sorry, September 26, 2003.

Okay, so that's his— and that's Robbie Lawler?

No, Jeremy Jackson. That was his first one. Lawler was his next one, 2004.

Oh, interesting. So Jeremy Jackson was a guy who stopped him earlier in his career. Yeah. Who was a really good boxer. Yeah, this is the end of it. Paul just— he just couldn't take it anymore. And the pace is just fucking insane.

Because it doesn't stop. It doesn't slow down.

Yeah, but I think, you know, at a certain point in time, everybody's time is up. And yeah, if you've been sparring with pro boxers for years and sparring hard for years and training hard and fighting and getting in these crazy wars—

The type of fights, yeah, the type of fights that you're in.

Remember when he fought Anderson Silva and he was getting bored, so he just laid down and put his hands on his head like this?

Only, only he could do that.

It was awesome. It was amazing. I mean, it was like, even though he lost the fight, I was, I was like, that was fucking great. It was so entertaining.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, because he, he knew Anderson just wanted to counterstrike and walk back on the fence, so he just didn't engage, right? And then nothing was happening.

I know. There was a few guys who figured that out with Anderson. Yeah, that if you don't do anything, he doesn't do anything. Yeah, yeah, which is crazy.

Yeah, and because, because he, during his prime, he was running through people before people worked it out, before there was like a ton of tape on him, before they, they found that, before also Anderson's age and the amount of fights he had caught up with him. He was untouchable.

Anderson in his prime was in the Matrix. He was doing things to people, you're like, this is— how is he doing it? And it was like there he'd pull these spectacular techniques out of nowhere, like Vitor, that front kick to the face. Yeah. It was just like, my Lord. He was in The Matrix. He just saw things that other people couldn't see. There was a time— and I always say that you have to look at elite fighters in their absolute prime. You can't look at them like BJ Penn later. He's my best example of that. You can't look at the BJ Penn-Frankie Edgar fight and say that's BJ Penn. No, you got to look at— I mean, later in his career, you know, you got to look at BJ Penn when he fought Sean Sherk, Joe Daddy Stevenson, BJ Penn when he was in his prime. You got to look at that. And I feel like that's the same thing with Anderson. Don't look at him past the broken leg. Look at him before that when he was just starching everybody. Yeah, look at him before that where no one could even touch him

and making it look easy. Easy, like championship fights, like finishing people easily.

Yeah, and having fun. Yeah, like having the Forrest Griffin fight, like he was having a good time.

Yeah, it's like, hey, that was almost dirty too. That was another dirty moment. Some, some guys are just cold-blooded.

Just stepped back and popped him with the right hand.

Yeah, and just like, like kind of, kind of mockingly. Yep, like dancing around. Did he get told off once because he was, he was mucking around that much?

That was the Demian Maia fight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the Demian Maia fight. Well, I think there's another factor in that fight. So that fight was outside in Abu Dhabi, and it was hot, and there was fucking bugs that were flying around the size of a horse.

Was it? I didn't know that, because I can't imagine how annoying that would be.

It was weird. You guys get these weird Middle Eastern bugs like that you never saw before flying around. Like, whoa, look at the size of that thing. I was like, this is crazy. And it was outside. So Anderson comes out hot in the first round, like putting it to Maya, trying to put Maya away, but he doesn't wind up putting him away. Yeah, and so I think he got really fucking tired, and I think he just decided to coast. And then Maya was like kind of chasing after him, and he was just getting out of the way and just doing enough to win a decision. Yeah, and Dana White was pissed. Yeah, they got real because this is like a big showcase fight. They're fighting— first of all, Even though the White House card was awesome, it was a lot of fun, it was a great night, don't have fights outside. A world championship fight should be fought in a controlled environment. Yeah, it should be an air-conditioned building. It should be all— it should be a controlled environment that everyone fights in a world championship fight the same way.

It's a control.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. What were some variables? I wasn't there. You were. You were. What are some variables we didn't see?

Well, one of them was humidity, and Gaethje talked about that. So there was thunderstorms all around us. Yes, that explains it. The fights got delayed. Yes, the fights got delayed, and they thought they were gonna get delayed way later, to like 10:30 PM, but it wound up passing over us, like literally, like miraculously, like literally circled around. Like, they might have done something. Start the engine, get the thing in the sky. He might have done something. But it's a good time to do something.

Yeah, if you are—

if you really can manipulate the weather, that would be a good time. So, um, there was that, and Justin said that in the first round he felt it. He's like, you could feel the air was heavy.

Yeah,

that's a factor. It wasn't that hot, like when they're fighting is in the 70s, I believe, but 70s with humidity when you're going at it. Oh yeah, that's not how it's supposed to be. Air-conditioned environment should be the same way for every fight. And that Abu Dhabi fight, it was not— it was hot. I remember sweating in my shirt, and we were outside, and I was like, these boys must be fucking tired. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by RAF, Real American Freestyle Wrestling, exclusively on Fox Nation. Every month, you get every feud, every match, every belt. If you love UFC, wrestling is where it all began. And now RAF heads to Sin City for another massive night of action. RAF 14, and this one is all attitude. RAF's bad boys Arman Tsaryukyan and Dillon Danis step onto the mat to find out who's the baddest. Plus, a loaded card featuring the world's best wrestlers and some of the biggest names in combat sports. No cages, no gloves, no excuses, just wrestling at its best. RAF 14, live from Las Vegas, Friday, October 23rd, streaming exclusively on Fox Nation. Go to foxnation.com and sign up today.

I'm like, I'm like a, I'm like a heavy sweater, like heavy, heavy sweater. Like, so whenever I do like a hard session, like if I have a big sparring day and do some rounds and it's hot, because in Australia humidity's— we live in it, right? Right. Um, if it's like a hot day and it's humid, by the second round I'll be dehydrated. Like, that's crazy. I'll be cooked. Like cooked.

You know, Gaethje doesn't drink water when he trains. Really? Yeah, he won't drink any water until after his training session's over.

Why?

He thinks it toughens him up. That's just how he's always done it.

He is super tough.

He's tough as fuck. That's an adorable motherfucker.

I don't, I don't know if that'll work for me. Like, I just start drinking water, will it make me tougher? Or will I just die?

know if— but it's like what we were talking about earlier, that there's this balance. Yeah, between like drinking and smoking and having fun and being like fucking a Marine.

Yes.

I don't know, man.

Yeah, fighters— fighters are special beasts, like special animals. Like,

it's almost like I wish there was a Marvin Hagler in MMA at the same time there's a Carlos Protes. So let's see which way works best.

Yes.

You know, you got 2 guys that are special athletes, but one of them is gets up at 5 o'clock in the morning and screaming war and running up sand dunes with combat boots on in the middle of the winter. Yeah, Cape Cod. That's Marvin Hagler. And yes, Carlos Proctor, he's fucking dancing, drinking Marlboro, and he's just going in there and fucking tuning people up.

I don't

know,

like, and easily— that last fight was rough to watch.

The Jack Dillamond-Alina fight?

Yes, yes. As a, as a patriotic Australian, sitting there and watching that fight was rough.

Well, as a fan of Jack's, it's hard to watch. Yeah. He's a great guy and he's an elite fighter, but my goodness, what Prates did to him. Yeah, like you said it best, it was dirty. Yeah, it was just dirty.

It was cold. He was just— it was like an executioner at that point.

He's got that step-in knee to the left side, or from his left side into the liver. God, that's so nasty. He does that so well. He's giving you all these different reads

and he gets so much

range.

Yes, like Like, it's— he's like, he fights almost in your face, but he's not there, right? He's not there.

And you go to come to him and he just leans back and he's gone.

Yeah, and pops you from across the cage and then calf kicks you on the way out.

DC said it best. We were talking about this last night. DC said he's built like a mosquito,

just

like an elite killer mosquito. All limbs, long limbs, but the The power. Yes, the Leon Edwards left hand. My

goodness, that left him cold.

And the way he covered distance with that shot too. Oh, and he's so good, man.

Yeah, he is. And he's so, so exciting to watch. Just like, just like Hoofy.

Yeah,

Hoofy, he's like— I know he lost to Arman, but did you see the one shot he threw from across the cage? Like, he covered like 2 meters. Yeah, hit him in the eye. His eye blew up straight away. It was so

No, Hufi's dangerous. He's dangerous and long. It's just like Arman had the perfect strategy. The perfect strategy. Just get him up against the cage, land elbows. And the way he like went for the single, you know, and then, you know, he's like defending, his head straight up in the air, boom, catches him with— caught him with one and he was like out cold. And he held him up to hit him with the second one.

Yeah, Arman's a beast.

And rich.

I hate that.

No sense. Grew up really rich.

I don't know why. Like, he's just— he's— he's my life, my life sport, my lifeblood on this earth for my family is his hobby. And it annoys me. It's like, he just turns up at the highest level to play, and he doesn't have to. It kills me.

And you— there's just always this, this narrative that we were told that, like, rich people can't fight. The rich guy's son is never gonna be the toughest guy. It's always the poor guy's.

Yeah, we—

yeah, he fights like he's poor. That's what's great. He fights like he grew up in the ghetto.

Yeah, or he, he fights like he grew up a super soldier,

right?

You know, maybe he's on the other side of the spectrum. Maybe.

Well, maybe. Yeah, he got really good training very early on.

Yeah,

and but also the thing is, it's like in him. He loves it. Yes, there's no way you could have the kind of money that that guy has and fight that way unless you really love it.

And get through a camp.

Right.

Like, there are too many moments during camp I'm like, F this, I need this app to go well. I'm like, halfway there. It's just— Well, it's

also, it's like he does those Sam Calavita workouts. Do you know those? Do you know what I'm talking about? No. Okay. So there's this guy who TJ Dillashaw credits with a lot of his strength and conditioning. and the reason why he had such a crazy gas tank. And Aaron Pico, he trains with him. Khamzat trains with him. He started— Khamzat started training with him fairly recently. But Sam Colavita, he comes from a cycling background and, you know, like real scientific approach to cardio. Yeah. And these guys do these fucking insane cardio strength and conditioning workouts in a garage in California. So you got all these elite fighters in this, you know, middle-class residential neighborhood. Guy fucking lifts up his garage door and you got these assassins on your fucking driveway doing like whipping chains and shit and doing all these crazy medicine ball workouts. Yeah, see if you could find some of that. They call it the garage. It's just what it's called, the garage. Yeah, and this garage is just filled with strength and cardio equipment. So they're all talking about it here.

Yeah.

Let me see if he could show some of the workouts. Is he gonna show it?

These guys are all cardio machines.

Yeah, and it's all in his— okay, they're not— that's not good. But I know from Arman's YouTube channel, he had a bunch of it where he was training with Khamzat at, at Calavita's place. Yes, along with a bunch of— Juan Archuleta was there, a bunch of like elite MMA fighters are there training and It looks like hell. It looks like just complete holy hell. Cub Swanson had an interesting take on it though, because Cub worked out there too, and he said he feels like he had some of his worst performances when he did his cardio sessions there. And he thinks because it just takes too much out of you. He goes, the guy just breaks you down too much. Yeah. He goes, there's like a fine line, and I think he passes that line.

So these things, just, just in the street.

I think the thing is though, if you're just doing a cardio-based sport like cycling, yeah, you know, obviously it's power and there's some technique to it, but it's not the same sort of give-and-take, completely open-ended, you know, improv— improvising thing that MMA is. Yeah, so you can't just have cardio. You also have you have to have the ability to have all of those movements just razor-sharp honed. Yeah. All your skills razor-sharp. And sometimes when you're broken down from strength and conditioning, when you go to do your skills, your skills feel sloppier. They don't feel the same way, you know? Like, I know, like, when I used to work out at Carlson Gracie's place, one of the things that I didn't like— no disrespect— but one of the things that I didn't like is they put you through this grueling strength and conditioning thing before you would do your skills. And I was like, hmm, why would you want to be exhausted when you're learning something? Yeah, I think it's a good thing if you're trying— just trying to get in shape and have a real hard workout. And yeah, you should know what it feels like to wrestle tired, but also shouldn't you learn all this stuff when you're fresh?

Yeah, because the idea is not to gas, right? Exactly. And that comes from efficiency.

Yes, I think if you're gonna do strength and conditioning like that, it should be after your skill work. This is my personal opinion. I think skill work should be done when you're not tired.

Definitely.

You should learn all those sharp movements, all the counters, all the things. It should be sharp. If you're exhausted and your abs are fucking killing you and your neck is stiff and then you're like, it's like you're a little more labored with stuff. You, you, you don't, you don't have the confidence and you have to like the the neural pathways of the sharpness. You know, sometimes you learn a move and then you get it, and you finally get it, and then you're hitting pads or something, just a clap, you just get it. Wow, it's like it's there. Yeah. And now it's in your head like, oh, I know that path, I know that path. If all of a sudden that path gets sloppy, then you start thinking, do I know it? Yeah. Do I know it the way I think I know it? Can I land this at will? If I see the opening, can I go, or will I be out of Will I be a fraction of a second slow? Will I be a little off?

And you don't want— like, if you go into these sessions tired, you don't want to get used to being tired. I know, I know they say you got to train for when you're tired, but you don't want to get used to being tired, right? So I feel like that starts you off at like a funny level, you know? And, and like, another thing is— what did you just pull up there, Jamie?

I just asked Perplexity if there's any benefits to hard Or athletic training, hard cardio before skill work. And

it says yes. Let me see that. Let me see. It says that. Scroll. Yes, there can be benefits, but it depends on whether you're trying to learn a skill or execute an established one under fatigue. Yeah, that's true. But the thing is, you're always learning. That's the thing about like technique in terms of MMA. It's like so comprehensive. Hard cardio isn't automatically better preparation for skill work. Fatigue commonly reduces the quality of sport-specific technique. That's exactly what we're talking about. And

And your mental focus though, that's not limitless. Like, it's— if I— everyone's done a cardio session where it's so hard you start to— like, your own brain starts to try to escape on you. Yes. You know, you find it hard to be in the moment where you are. Yes. Because you just— you're tired. You're tired. If you take that into a skills session, you're not gonna— I personally, I can't I can't work under it like that because—

Yeah, you— I think skill is for fresh people. Yeah. And I think there's a real benefit to, like, flow rolling. There's a real benefit to, like, shadow sparring, where you're just touching and moving, and it's just— you're just building pathways in your mind. But then there's also, like, a giant benefit to just breaking down the machine and pushing the fucking machine to its redline and forcing it to recover and build a stronger base. And it's a balance though.

I don't think— like, whilst it has a place, and I do it as well, I use the assault bikes and treadmills and everything else. I think though, if you want to break yourself doing something, it needs to be in the craft you're doing. Like, if you want to get fitter wrestling, you have to wrestle. You have to be put in those positions. If you want to see where your skills take you under fatigue, you have to wrestle to fatigue. You have to grapple to fatigue. You know, like, well,

that's GSP's approach.

Yeah,

later in his career, later in his career, he essentially abandoned all the strength and conditioning and just did sport-specific training. Just did hard rounds on the bag, hard rounds sparring, hard rounds drilling.

Because that's also what makes your body hard. Like, you need to, you need to be used to contact, right? And stuff. There's been heaps of camps where I've like torn a calf muscle, so I've done like the back end of but just on treadmills and assault— treadmills, Concept2s, that sort of stuff. Not treadmill, sorry, Concept2s, assault bikes. Too many SkiErgs. Too many camps have ended this way. And it just takes a mental toll on you, having to push yourself to redline in those sessions. It's just—

Well, you know, that brings me to BJ Penn's prime, 'cause one of the things that I've talked about a bunch of times is he didn't really do much sports-specific training in his prime for camps. He would do the camps with Mar Maranovich. And Mar Maranovich, who was a— he's— his philosophy was, you already know how to fight. What we're gonna do is give you the most insane gas tank, and then you're gonna go in there free as a bird because you're never gonna think about cardio. You're just gonna be able to perform. Yeah. And so it was all plyometrics. Yeah, crazy plyometrics and all these weird box jumps and all this different shit. And every day just getting broken down. broken down every day, but he would show up shredded and just, just looking like an absolute demon. And he had been doing very little in terms of like sparring, very little mitt training. And the philosophy was, you already know how to fight. Yeah, like take that thought and just throw it into this 6-8 week camp of insane cardio and plyometrics.

Yeah, I think that's where I've kind of pushed my own training in this in light heavyweight in the later end of my career. It's just, it's like being happy, enjoying the process. Because by this stage, I know how to fight or I'm in trouble. Right. Either I got it by now or I'm not gonna get it. So it's like we don't need to work skills as much as review, revise, and just practice. So it's like I do a lot of mitt work. I do a lot of like light sparring, movement, shadow sparring sort of work. I do a lot of rounds in the gi and different positions.

In the gi? Really? Yeah. What is the benefit, you think, in the gi for MMA training?

If you want to learn jiu-jitsu, I'm a big believer in gi. I'm a big believer in gi. Obviously, it's different, but a lot of gi guys can transition from gi to no-gi. Mm-hmm. It's very hard the other way around.

Yes.

You know, so it's— and I think Demian Maia was a big believer in gi work.

Well, a lot of the Brazilians are. Yeah, it's a religion.

Yeah,

for good reason. Jiu-jitsu is all about the gi, my friend. You need the gi. Don't abandon the gi. Like, people got real mad. I don't know, you weren't around back then, the early days of gi/no-gi, right? The early days. Like, when did you start training?

Um, well, it would have been 2000— like, for MMA?

Yeah.

It would have been like 2015.

Right. So in like 2001, 2002, 2000-ish was when people started doing no gi, and a lot of the Brazilians did not like it.

Yeah,

there's

a lot that still don't like it.

Loyalty to the gi that was crazy. So when Eddie Bravo branched off and started 10th Planet, which was 2003, it was very controversial. Like, what is this guy? This guy abandoned the gi. It was a real problem, man. That sounds crazy now because there's so many elite Brazilians that are in no-gi. They've kind of— just like they abandoned the idea that leg locks are bad.

Yeah, yeah.

If you did a leg lock back then in a tournament, even though it was legal, everybody would boo.

Yeah, and you're getting beat up afterward, probably.

Right. Heel hooks, people would be furious at you.

You know what's great about the gi in terms of like a jiu-jitsu side of things, especially like for MMA as well, is that you can't make as many mistakes in the gi.

Yes, absolutely. You can't.

It makes your positioning and your decision-making so much more vital. Because let's be honest, if you're an athletic guy, you can get pretty far in no-gi.

You can explode out of things.

You can explode out of a lot of things. I've jumped into beginner classes and And a really strong guy will still like shove me from mount or from half guard because I'm just not ready for him to just bench press me, you know what I mean?

Right, right.

It's just like these crazy beginner sort of—

Right, but if you're grabbing a hold of his gi, he's not doing any of that.

Yeah, well, and you can't make mistakes because if you get— if you make a mistake, it gets capitalized on and you get into a bad position. Then you're working from that bad position, like you're actually punished for errors. I feel like a lot more so. Obviously, in no-gi, there's plenty of that as well, especially at the highest level.

I think there's definitely something to it. Jean-Jacques Machado's approach was very interesting because, you know, Jean-Jacques was born with only a thumb on his left hand. So, he has a right hand that's a full hand, but he was born with just a thumb. So, Jean-Jacques never relied on collar chokes and grabbing cuffs. His technique was overhooks and underhooks. So when he went to Abu Dhabi, his technique right into no-gi immediately translated because he was using wrestling-based holds. Yeah, he was— a lot of it was overhooks and underhooks.

Same systems.

Yes, same system. So when I learned from him, I did that. I did his style, and that was like— because I'm still gonna do no-gi with Eddie. So I was doing no-gi at 10th Planet, and I was doing gi at Jean-Jacques. So I just decided to do it Jean-Jacques style. Yeah, Jean-Jacques' style was like, the gi is great defensively because you have to have excellent position and you have to have good defense. You have to make sure that you're doing the right thing because you're not gonna just yank yourself out of an armbar. Yes. It's not like when you're sweaty and you can just kind of explode out of things and squirm and move real quick. You can't do any of that shit. You're trapped. So defensively, I felt like it was very— but I also felt like offensively, I should just do all the things that I do no-gi and ignore the gi. And just— except a clock choke. I can't pass up on a clock choke. If I can get the best— if I get that grip inside and I get that hand on the underarm, I can spin under. Oh, I love that.

That's, that's a ninja move, man. I love me a clock choke. But other than that, I felt like offensively, in terms of like controlling people, I was gonna ignore the gi. I was just gonna only, only use grips that were wrestling-based grips. And so that's how I—

I'm very much the same. And my coach gives me— like, kind of teaches that way as well. Like, all my chokes in the gi even are still just head and arm, rear naked chokes. Like, just like real— the real simple ones.

Yeah, the basics.

Yeah.

Well, look at Marcelo Garcia. He's like my favorite example. Like, Marcelo, almost all of his victories by submission came from chokes. Almost all of them. He beat Rico Rodriguez in Absolute in Abu Dhabi with a heel hook, which was crazy. Yeah, but in all the other fights that he had, every one of those submissions I think was a choke. I don't think I've ever seen him get anybody in an armbar. I'm sure he has, but I've never seen it.

Well, chokes can't be defended,

right?

Right. Like, in a lot of, a lot of high-level guys, you'll see let their knees go, let their arms go. Like, especially in fighting, especially in MMA. How many times have you seen like an arm like bust out. Yeah, or like heel hook in the knees.

Cory Sandhagen, and they just blew his knee apart in his last fight.

And then doesn't stop the fight though, right? If you're good, like, you're good.

Yeah, and until it's over.

But choking, right? Like, you're not—

you go out.

Yeah, you're gone. Yeah, that's it, it's over.

That was Marcelo's approach. No kimuras. He said kimura was a strongman move. You have to be strong to pull that off.

Yes, you do.

So his just whole thing was just get a hold of the necks and high elbow guillotine, rear naked choke, anything you can do, head and arm choke, you know, whatever he could do is just get a hold of the neck. Yeah, he had a crazy north-south choke. His north-south choke is excellent. Just, he just figured out how to be like a master neck squeezer.

Yeah, yeah, and just find those right positioning. Some guys are just good at it though, like saying, saying, just, just like MMA, there are guys that are born gifted and talented for the craft. Like Craig Jones, a freak.

Oh yeah, he's a freak. But he's also a guy who loves jiu-jitsu.

Yes.

He loves the game and being skillful and setting traps and catching people. He's a nerd for it.

He loves seeing the different things, what works, what doesn't work. Like, he has— his approach to it is so intellectual, but he's good enough to be able to implement it.

And he's always having a good time.

Mate, he's—

that's the thing, right? He always looks like he's having a good time. He's having a blast. Yeah. He is the funniest fucking guy in jiu-jitsu. jiu-jitsu by a long shot. Yeah, like there's no one even— he, like, he's like a professional comedian. Like, he easily, if he retired from competing, could become a professional comic. I really believe that. Yeah, the dude's hilarious. Yeah. When he had that intergender fight with Gabby Garcia and he kissed her and she got mad at him. He's so silly. He's so silly. But that silliness is like a mask. that covers up this assassin. Yeah, like when you start training with him and do— and like you watch him train with like elite guys and he catches them and stuff, you're like, oh fuck, man, that's slick.

It's, it's, it's like— so I've rolled with him and it's like you're drowning. It's just, you're wondering how this ends, like what he's gonna finish you with.

Now what's crazy is imagine Gordon can do that to him.

That's,

that's what's crazy. Well, Gordon could do that to everybody.

That's what's crazy. I've thought about this. I've thought like, like, how would I go about fighting those dudes? And I'd be like, I'm doing everything in my power to not get like grabbed at all, because it's over once, once, once you get sucked into it. You can't play safe with these guys.

Well, especially with Gordon. He's so good at controlling people because he doesn't have an athletic-based style at all. Like, he talks about it. He says, I'm not an athletic guy. I don't move fast. So all my jiu-jitsu is control-based, and it's also when he gets a hold of you, that's it.

It's over. Yeah.

Rickson Gracie said this to me once. It was like the dopest fucking conversation I ever had with him. I've had a few with him that are pretty cool, but we're over his house and we were watching some fight tapes. It was me and him and his son Kron, and we're sitting there and we're watching these, these fight tapes, and he's explaining what these guys are doing wrong. He was watching this like Mario Sperry fight.

That'd be so cool.

It was the dopest shit ever. And he said— and he was talking about how these guys are losing position. And he goes, we all started at a neutral position, we all start at zero. And he goes, and once I go to one, I'm not going back to zero. I'm going to 2, I'm going to 3, I'm going to checkmate. And it was like so intense. Yeah, when he was saying it, it was like— but it was like, this is a fact. Yeah, if I get you in a position, you're not getting out of it, and I'm advancing to the next spot, and I'm advancing to the next spot, and then checkmate. And when he was saying that, I was like, oh shit. Yeah, it was the dopest conversation.

These guys are like samurais of today. Oh yeah, like that mentality they have. Yeah, that is the, the way of the warrior.

Well, Hickson was a true pioneer too. with physical training. So Rickson was like the first jiu-jitsu guy to adopt extreme flexibility, yoga, cold plunges. He was doing these cold plunges in the river, glacial rivers in Japan, before he fought in Japan Vale Tudo. It's in the video. You can see it. Of course it was cool. It's fucking freezing cold water, and he's in there just fucking, ah, ah. It's amazing. He was doing neck exercises with like bands where he was like going upstairs or pulling against a tree with a fucking thing to control his neck muscles and strengthen his neck muscles. He was doing shit that nobody was— nobody had figured out.

S&C, years ahead of the game.

Way ahead of the game. Yeah. Balance work, balance beam stuff where he's doing a standing split on a balance beam.

Yeah, well, you know, and that sort of stuff is so vital for MMA because you're just— there is no controlled position.

Right.

Like, 'cause you're constantly moving with, like, obviously the external forces And then the external variable is the opponent who's trying to do things to you, and you're kind of working with that whilst trying to do your own things. And you're never in a position where your body's controlled, like it's very imbalanced. So doing a lot of these imbalanced sort of exercises and balance exercises where you're strengthening one muscle or flexing one muscle or turning one on, it's just, they're so important. Yeah. That's why I think you mentioned it, or you started to just beforehand. gymnastics as a baseline for—

Yes.

Anything. Yeah. Anything is just the best. Yeah.

Gymnasts are so physically strong to be able to throw yourself in the air and land on your feet and move around like that. Like that dude who did the front flip to the action.

Yeah.

We found out with breakdancing. So one of the things that happened with the— with Tent Planet was they, they started bringing in breakdancers, and Eddie Bravo realized like, oh my God, Gio Martinez and Richie Martinez, these 2 guys were excellent breakdancers. They do all this crazy shit like hop on one hand and do like a handstand and do a lotus with your legs without even touching your feet. Crazy stuff. Yeah, but that ability to control your body, we realized, translates directly to jiu-jitsu.

Yeah, it does.

So Eddie started like learning breakdancing to like help jiu-jitsu. Eddie's super open-minded. He'll try anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He sees someone that's really good, he's like, what are you doing? How do you do that? Like, if someone does something in the class, he'll stop the whole class. Is that— did you make that up? Did you invent that? Yeah, show us how you do it. And he'll have everybody go through, well, I do this, but I find that they counter that, so I'm holding it like this now. And everybody's like, oh, and then they'll study it and break it down. Yeah. So he saw these guys breakdance, he's like, wait, wait, Why the fuck are you so strong? Like, what's going on here?

Can Eddie breakdance?

I don't know if he really got good at it, but I know he was definitely learning some of the stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just as a strength and conditioning routine.

Yeah, well, I was, I was super lucky. So early on in my career, like most, MMA was still very new. So I, I did— the information wasn't out there today. Like, today you can get a full information plan off AI, right? Right. And just, and just find out anything you want. But I was super lucky to meet my wife as early as I did because her background is elite gymnastics. And elite gymnastics, like, they're animals.

Oh yeah.

Their whole life is one long camp because they can't stop because they can't put on weight. They can't do it. Like, it's just, they're just in it forever until they're not. It is wild. Like, every day is performance-based, like long hours. So her mentality really kind of of led me into my craft and me in my early days.

Did she teach you gymnastics?

She tried, she tried, she tried. Like, and there's a lot— like, she was the one that made me realize how important a strong core is. Like, a strong core, the core is everything. Like, as a person, like, just being able to move and walk around, and especially with the dynamic movements of MMA and fighting. It's like, so, but she was actually the one that like, she was my nutritionist. She was like my strength conditioning coach at one point. Wow. Because she had like the health science background and sports science background. And

oh, how convenient.

And I was just a poor kid that could fight.

That's awesome though. What a great combination.

Lucky. Super lucky.

Yeah, I think a lot of people neglect core work, like real core, like rotational core work. I know I did for a long time, and I just started doing it a few years ago, like really getting into rotational work, like a lot of like heavy cable rotational work and kettlebell rotational work. Man, it just— I was doing it out of necessity because I kept getting injured. I was getting certain, certain lower back injuries that were like a repetitive use injury. Mm-hmm. And I said, I think there's an imbalance, you know, so a lot of it I was getting from archery. So I was getting this tendonitis on my lower right side. And what it is is because I'm pulling back with one arm like 100 times a day. Yeah, and I'm not doing anything on the other side. Yeah, so all my stability is on this side. I'm like pulling back on that side and I'm locking myself in place, and it started to fuck with me. And so I went to a physical therapist and he started recommending some— and one of them was rotational shit. Yeah, and then as soon as I started doing it, I was like, why wasn't I doing this my whole life?

Exactly. This is so stupid. I'm such a moron.

Yeah. Yeah, it's So it's like, it's so vital. It's like all your other physical capabilities get capped at like 80%, and having that strong core just unlocks that. And it just makes your whole body stronger. And just like living, living is better. Pick up your kids without pulling a hernia.

Yeah, it improves everything. It really does. They say that like, if you do those, you know, those hanging foot-to-bar moves, Just a hanging foot-to-bar. Yeah, that improves your deadlift, that improves your clean and press, that improves the strength of your chin-ups. It improves everything. Just that one move. Yeah, Donaher's number one move. He said the one move that he says is a must, a mandatory for all athletes. You have to be able to do that.

What move is this?

This thing, you're hanging chin-up bar, you're hanging, and then you lift your feet up and touch the bar.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

With no momentum. So you have to be— you have to stabilize it at the bottom and then pull it all up and stabilize it at the bottom, pull it off. That one movement, because it's so core-intensive, that movement right there.

Yeah, yeah.

So that right there.

That's like— it's, it's like what— that's why I have so much respect. You see those guys at like Barkings?

Oh yeah, those guys are crazy.

They're like holding out full extension and walking. Flagpoles.

And just jacked.

He's jacked! Like, they, they must only eat salad. Like, it doesn't look like you could burn a stupid amount of calories just on bars.

But you are, right? Because you're building muscle, and the muscle requires more calories, and you're, you're essentially like lifting your own body weight all day. Those guys do it for hours and hours at a time.

And I guess like I guess like having any extra weight would affect this, the performance of all this stuff by a great degree.

What is this guy doing? I don't

know. I just went to their most recent video they put up.

He's just got— oh, this is Bar Stars. He's just using his fingers about to keep balance.

He must be some kind of a rock climber. That's freakish. Yeah, some of these do— what is this dude doing? Hey bro, you trying to die? Are you What are you trying to do? Do you understand electricity?

This, this video—

Don't do that. Kids at home, don't do that.

No, that is terrible.

How can you do that and not die? Are those not power lines? Maybe the power's out. He took a chance. Now's my time.

Maybe he did it properly and grounded himself and then went up there for the video.

Fuck you, ground yourself, but you're holding on to those. Just, you ever heard like what it sounds like for those guys that have to work on those power lines?

You can just hear the— Yeah,

and you just imagine the kind of power that's going through those fucking things.

Electricity's scary, isn't it?

Terrifying.

Like, I was an electrician for a little bit.

Were you really?

Yeah, yeah, that's how I started. I was an electrician. No shit. I was an electrician as I was like kind of fighting on the local scenes, professional still, but on the local scenes. And then I got the call-up for Ultimate Fighter and I said, I'm gonna take some annual leave, went on The Ultimate Fighter.

So did you go through an apprenticeship?

Yeah, yeah, I was a 4th-year apprentice. So I was supposed to— I was doing my capstone, which is the end test, and I was gonna do that, and then The Ultimate Fighter said, all right, come in, let's go try you out. I went on the show, I applied for annual leave, never, never went back. Maybe— I wonder if my job's still there.

I have a buddy of mine, my friend, shout out to Jimmy D'Attilio, back home in Boston. He worked with this guy who lost his face. He just had just some crazy power thing and just scorched his skin all over his whole face. Just got zapped, just got electrocuted. Yeah, something went wrong.

That's crazy. Like, yeah, electricity is just— and because it's not like the damage you get, like, there are heaps of people that can get electrocuted and be fine, and then there's heaps that just die straight away.

Yeah, my buddy Remy got hit by lightning.

No.

Yeah, yeah, when he was young, I think he was in high school.

Wow.

He lived, but he got fucked up and he woke up on the ground and realized eventually what happened.

Yeah, wow.

Yeah.

That's good.

That's fucking terrifying. Do

you reckon that's a good omen or a bad omen?

Neither.

If you had to look at it—

It's not good because you got hit by lightning. It's not good luck.

But you lived.

Good luck would be the lightning lands 5 feet away from you and you're like, fuck, let's get off this mountain. Bad luck is you get hit by lightning, but worse luck is you die. Yeah,

I think bad luck would be turning into some charcoal.

Yes. I wonder, like, is it just like sometimes you live because like sometimes you don't get a full blast? Like one of them blasts that like cuts a tree in half. You've seen those?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I guess that kills you. Well, that seems like that would kill you.

I think, I think, I think, I think the Lightning has a lot of voltage, not a lot of current. As an electrician, you can illuminate us on this. It's the current that kills you.

Oh, interesting. What's the difference? What's the difference?

I can't tell you right now.

Well, you were looking pretty smart 5 minutes ago.

I've been out of the game for a little bit. For a hot minute.

I think it's probably you have a heart attack. That's probably what it does to a lot of people.

And it burns you, obviously.

Obviously. Yeah, I think it probably just short-circuits your entire system. Just—

Yeah, well, that's what a defib is, right? It's like literally trying to short-circuit your heart back.

Have you ever seen the video? There's this one guy, he's— I think he's in his driveway. He's walking down the driveway, he gets hit by lightning, falls to the ground, goes out, wakes up, starts walking again, gets hit again. Dude gets hit twice. Like, what are the fucking odds? I hope it's real.

Once you say what are the odds, the odds are very low, Joe. I think it's not real. But

well, it's an old video. The only reason why I don't think it's AI— it could be fake.

You pissed someone off to get hit by lightning twice.

You did something bad. You cheated on your taxes.

You did some fraud. If you're not going straight to confession afterwards—

Yeah, you stole something. You did something bad.

You kicked a cat when no one was watching.

Like, the 2 strikes and catching it on video are like impossible.

But I thought it was a security camera. I thought it was in his driveway.

People fake that all the time.

No, no, no, those are all real. No, those are all real, Jamie. Shut the fuck up, Jamie.

See, look, he got back up and he's about to get hit again.

I don't think that's the guy.

No, this is— people fake this all the time.

Bro, you can kill that guy with a balloon. That guy is not getting hit by lightning and living. He's got scorch marks. Look at the homemade scorch marks. Look

at the armhole squish!

I like how he falls down too, bitch-ass fake fall.

This one actually is not getting hit twice. This is a more recent one, but—

That probably is real. I'm just kidding.

When I,

uh, I get sucked into these videos all the time.

I'm sorry, sir, if you got hit by lightning and I'm mocking you. We're just having fun. It's all love.

I'm sorry.

We're just joking around, sir. Wait, is this a true story? I hope he really didn't get hit by lightning. I hope he faked it because it's not funny. Getting hit by lightning is not funny. If you live, it's alright. I guess

if he died, it would be bad.

This is the guy. Yeah, shut up, Jamie. This is real. You don't know shit, Jamie. This is real. So the guy gets up and he starts walking. Now watch this, he gets hit again. I'm pretty sure this is real. Jamie

is having the unluckiest day of his life.

Bro, that's real. That's his real As the baby Jesus. He's been struck twice. It's real! Jamie!

Watch him get struck a third time.

Come on, Jamie!

Tune in next week.

Shut up! Why are you ruining everything? Dude, oh. I think that one's real.

Yeah, that one's real. Of course it is. We got the only one, only time.

Oh my goodness.

It's a fucked up way to go. It's a fucked up way to go.

Yeah, it's just a pair of smoking shoes.

That's why tasers are wild. Like, you ever seen like a dude who's like methed up and gets tased and he just starts screaming and pulls the things out of his body? Yeah, like, how come?

There's like 6 cops and they're just like— he's in that Hulk rage moment. Like,

yeah, but some people, they just shut off and go straight down to the ground.

I want to— in my headcanon, I'm that, like, I'll just rip it off, I'll take it. I'm probably just like,

I'm pretty sure I fall down. I'm sure I fall down stiff as a board. I fall down immediately.

You know, it's not even getting that far. I'm putting my hands up straight away, like, what am I doing?

Yeah, don't tase me. I'm happy to comply. Fuck. Yeah, it's just like some people, like Dana White on his show, Dana White's Looking for a Fight, they all got tased once. Oh yeah, it was him.

I was gonna ask if you have done it because—

no, seems like a crazy thing. No, I'm not interested. Not interested in getting fucking tased. That seems ridiculous. That doesn't seem fun at all. It's just like, I don't want to have a heart attack either. Like, what if you get a heart attack?

Because it can happen.

I think you can.

This is a tough situation. This guy is not— yeah, complying.

Yeah, he's pretty jacked too,

dude. Look at the size. Oh no, he's, he's ex-army. I think I've seen this. He's like ex-Navy SEALs or something. Like, and he's got Like PTSD. Yeah,

he's having a problem and he's barefoot.

Yeah, he's earthing.

It doesn't work. You better run.

And you know what's crazy? Like, he's a big unit too.

Yeah, he's a big fucker.

And why, why did they send 4 women cops to deal with him?

I like how he's still holding his phone too.

Did you see what he just said?

What'd he say?

Tase me all day, I love pain.

Oh, fun.

Some people have just built—

Yeah, I don't understand that. So is it some people's body? Because I thought it didn't matter until I saw a few of these guys online. My original ignorant thought was once they tase you, you get zapped, no matter how tough you are, contracting,

you go,

everything, you just fall down. Yeah, that's it. No, apparently not. No, no, people like, fuck this. Yeah, that guy didn't even seem bothered by it.

No, didn't, didn't flinch.

That's great. Let me see that again. Let me see him get tased. trying to figure it out. You sure that's real? I think the lightning is real and that one's fake, Jamie. I think you're right. How about that?

Honestly, this guy gets struck by lightning, I don't—

it's called pain tolerance, he said.

Get down on the ground.

I don't reckon he takes a knee if he gets struck by lightning.

They haven't tased him yet.

At that point they did. Where did they tase him?

Let me see.

Oh

yeah. Oh, you can see him spaz out and react.

You know what is funny? When

They might not have gone into him. That was also the thing, because if you pull it out that easy—

When the guys, like, try to make a leg for it, they try to make a bolt for it, and they get hit mid-stride. Yeah,

that's fun. Those are fun. It says, uh, he said, get down on the ground. He goes, negative. That's not good. That's not good. He's being salty. I'm calling this in.

I'm like, I'm gonna need backup. Well, he's just depending

upon them not shooting him. him. That's the problem. It's like,

I don't think he cares either.

Well, he should definitely care about that, because I don't care how tough you are, yeah, guy unloads his magazine into you, you're gonna be dead.

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, I don't— he's depending on them. Well, who knows what the fucking scenario was? I don't know. Maybe he's right. Who fucking knows? Sometimes people get pulled over for bullshit reasons and they're right to get pissed off. I don't know what happened there. But from my own observation, looks like the man's a tad unhinged. Yeah,

and he's, he's too big to be unhinged. Yeah, he's a monster of a man. Yeah, I was getting real Struve vibes. Stefan Struve, right, right, right. Struve vibes from that guy.

Stefan Struve, forgot about him. Yeah, there's a few of those guys that fought in the UFC that was just so fucking tall. Yeah, remember Semmy Schiltz?

No.

Semmy Schilt, elite kickboxer, K-1 champion from Holland. Nasty front kick, 7 feet tall. Yeah, he was so big. He was just ridiculously tall, and he just would step forward and throw these front kicks and fuck you up with them.

Yeah, that's— I feel like I would have been such a good tall fighter. I've got, you know what I mean, if I just had like an extra foot or just give me an extra inch, I reckon I could have Yeah, I couldn't do too many really cool things.

How hard was it for you to stay at 170? Like, what was your 170 cut like?

Oh, it was nightmarish. What did you start off at? It's the sort of thing, obviously, when I started, when I was at 170, I was— I started when I was a teenager, so I started at 18, and then I went— I was thinking I was 170 until about 23, and it was just getting harder and harder. You know, as you age, you just get bigger and bigger. And I've always been like a naturally heavy guy, heavyset guy. I think it's my Māori genes. And the last weight cut I did was 7.4 kilos on the day.

Ooh.

So that's—

£16, £17. What is that? Yeah, that's a lot in one day.

Yeah, like morning of.

Yeah, it was. So that was— what year was this?

I would have been 20. 24. So what, 2000?

So you had like 2000 great performances at welterweight, like really promising performances. But for sure, when you went up to 85, that's when you became Robert Whittaker. That's when you really became—

for certain.

Yeah, it's like you had found the sweet spot.

Yeah.

And some people, there's that— the gaps are so enormous between weight classes, which I think is a real problem.

Yeah.

£15 is a lot of weight. Yeah, in boxing that would be 3 or 4 weight classes. Yeah, whereas in MMA it's 1, and the 70 to 85 gap is big, but the 85 to 205 gap is bananas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it is, it is. But I was, I was always kind of cutting down from a 205er to 185, and it just get— it just got harder and harder, you know what I mean? Especially with— because I've been, I've been fortunate and blessed enough to fight for a long career, and I've had— I've been able to have a ton of fights. So to— you just kind of get sick of cutting weight constantly. You get sick of— and then, and the camps themselves are tricky because like you're, you're trying to fuel yourself for the sessions, but you can't eat too much, right? And food is a direct link to like recovery and performance.

Yeah.

So that was one of the biggest things I noticed I noticed moving up to light heavyweight was just the camps were just so much better. So I can just eat, I can eat carbs, I can eat carbs, I can just fuel my body, you know? And my body was stronger during the camp. I had more energy during the camps. Like, I didn't really— the weight cuts were kind of the same because I still wanted to have some size and have some weight behind me. So I still made the weight cut. It's not like I just walked in there.

But your body's more or less filling into its natural state.

Yes.

Rather than staying in this constantly depleted state.

Exactly. Like,

especially at 170, I

want to say it would have been like 94-ish kilos, 92-ish kilos.

What is that, Jamie?

Oh, 90— oh, what, 190? About 198, something like that.

198. So close, close to £200. So close to £30 of cutting.

Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. And, and then as well as because I've been in the game for so long and you understand better than most, like, there's life going on around you. I don't know what it was because the last few middleweight camps I had, did not enjoy them. The cut, the diet, the training fatigue. I've got a bunch of kids at home, like, trying to hang out with 6 kids when I'm this fatigued. Starving. Starving. It was just, you kind of get sick of it. You get burnt out a little bit from that style thing. And one of the big things that I don't know why it seems like a small thing, but one of the big things that made me like sad was that I went to my cupboard and nothing fits. Because like I get fitted for suits when I'm like trim, when I'm lean, when my shorts are in. So like if I'm walking around my normal weight, I don't have clothes. And I know how stupid that sounds, how little that is, but it made me sad. It's like at the end of this career that I've I'm like, oh my God, like I've been in the UFC for 15 years, end of my career, I'm gonna have no clothes.

And it made me— I was like, I was upset. I was like—

That's hilarious.

Man, it's just, it doesn't really make sense, but it, it made sense to me. It made me upset. That's why that was another thing where I was like, I'm gonna— I want to go, I want to walk around and have clothes. I want to, I want to, I wanted something to show for this.

Don't you think that MMA would be better in general if there was a way to stop weight cutting, just avoid it, and then you fight at what you actually weigh when you're at your healthiest. Mm-hmm. You'd have to have way more options for weight classes for sure, and there would have to be some way to monitor to make sure that people aren't dehydrating themselves. Almost like, you know how we were talking about how Drug-Free Sport or USADA could just randomly drug test you? Yeah. They show up and drug test. Yeah. They should be able to randomly weigh you. They show up, just here, get down in your underwear, get on the scale. Oh, you're fighting at 170 but you weigh 208. That's not right. But then you should be fighting at 205.

But then that takes away a lot of free agency from the athlete. Like, does it though?

You could change your body weight if you so choose, right? Like, you see a lot of these, like, you know, like Dave Bautista, the wrestler who's enormous at one point in time. Now he's slimming down and getting shredded so he could take on more roles, more complex acting roles. Yeah, that could be done. Like, you could do that as a professional fighter as well. You can do a lot more cardio and get your body down to a healthy level of whatever it is, whatever, whatever weight class you're at your best.

But when then, when you jump on that family holiday, that family cruise, and you're at the salad bar the entire time, that doesn't sound super fun.

That doesn't sound super fun, but I mean, I don't think— I don't advocate that I'm saying be healthy and eat food. Yeah. But be at a weight that's a real— like, if everybody just fought at the weight they are when they're in shape and eating the adequate amount of food to fuel you, like a real full meal, like full meals every session, eating fruit, getting in your carbs, drinking tons of water, never being dehydrated, but this is what you weigh with, you know, 10% body fat, natural healthy food. What is that? That should be how everybody fights.

Yeah, I guess in a perfect world. I like, I have zero idea on how you would implement something like that. I don't either. Like, no answers. And I've thought of, thought about, obviously this has been a question in the MMA world for the longest time, in all sports with weight divisions really.

Of course.

But it's just, it's just, you also then look at human nature and it's just our tendency to push the envelope.

Well, especially in a sport that has been predicated on that. Yeah, people have been doing that forever. They've been cutting massive amounts of weight for Yeah,

well, I guess maybe because the sport sprouted here, right? It's taken a lot of the wrestling mentality.

Exactly.

And weight cuts and weight divisions and all that into the sport itself. But I definitely feel like you see more of that dichotomy of that kind of scenario of more natural weight classes, the higher up you go in the weight divisions. So you see more in like heavyweights where guys are, they're more normal weight class, or especially in heavyweight, they're all, they're all just big boys.

Right, right.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And some look like Overeem. Yeah. And some look like, I don't know, Pat Barry.

He's the best. Yeah. Overeem, the Overeem days is the best argument for keeping steroids in sports. It's like, come on, don't you want to see that again? Like, what are we doing? Like the Pride, we were talking about this last night at the club. The Pride days. Yeah, the Pride heavyweight days was the greatest heavyweight lineup in the history of the fucking sport.

Doesn't it seem like everyone was a heavyweight?

There were so many heavyweights, man. First of all, they would encourage you to gain weight.

Yeah,

like one of the guys from Eddie's gym, Jason Chambers, fought over there, and when he fought over there, they're like, you should be 185. And he's like, I'm not 185. They're like, you should get on steroids.

Like, we can make you— we can make

Ensign Inouye, when he did the podcast, he told me very specifically that in the contract it said in capital letters, we do not test for steroids. It was like in capital letters, like, we're all good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you saw those fights. Yeah, they were amazing.

Amazing. Yeah, mental. And the greatest heavyweight division that has ever been assembled. Yeah, Mirko Cro Cop in his prime. Fedor in his prime, Nogueira in his prime.

Vandelay.

Well, Vandelay really shouldn't have been fighting at heavyweight, but he did. He fought Mark Hunt. Remember that fight? Oh Jesus, he fought Mark Hunt. I was like, oh my God, getting hit by Mark Hunt when you're a 185-pounder, that is crazy.

Fedor,

bro. Fedor.

Oh my goodness.

When he got knocked out by Cro Cop, when he got head kicked, when Vandelay got head kicked. Yeah, good Lord.

Yeah, he got folded. It was, uh, Cro Cop's head kicks was just insane. Brutal. But what a twist of fate, the way that he got head kicked

by Gonzaga.

Yeah, yeah, like it was such a— it was such a thing because that's his thing. He got Cro Cop'd. You can't Cro Cop Cro Cop.

I know. And by a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt with nobody expecting him to win that way.

Yeah, it was— it was—

a lot of people forget about Gonzaga. Yeah, Gonzaga was a fucking beast. Animal. He was a beast.

That's— that's the answer 2 weight divisions. Absolute,

right? But some guys can't do it, you know. Definitely TJ Dillashaw can't fight absolute, but he could be one of the elite of all time at bantamweight, you know. Yeah, here's Mark Hunt and Wanderlei, bro. Mark Hunt was so big. He was 265 and Wanderlei was fighting 185 at the time, or 205.

And it's Mark Hunt. Like, he just— he's not a fun fight ever.

Well, first of all, almost impossible to hurt hurt. Yeah, that guy got head kicked by Cro Cop and just went, well, good shot, got back up.

Good one, good

one, back up, he's fine.

Good one.

And I think he got head kicked with shoes on. It's back when they were wearing wrestling shoes. Oh yeah, it was fine, bro. He was a tank. He could eat them. You can eat those shots.

And he had touch of death.

Touch of death. And one of the greatest walk-offs in the history of sport. He would KO you and just go, oh, you're gone, and just turn around. Even if you—

even if And even if you weren't gone, he'd still just walk away.

And the referee would stop him, 'cause he'd be on your back going, where's he going? And the ref would be like, that's it.

No, you're dead.

He called the fight?

Yeah, yeah.

There's some of those walk-offs, you're like, I don't know if that's a real KO.

Yeah.

Like, maybe that guy could've— if he got on top and kept going and just covering up, it might've— he might've lasted to the end of the round.

There are plenty of times I see a walk-off KO, and you're exactly that. Like, they can't— you know how sometimes guys come back? Yes. After getting hit a couple more times. Right. So they come back, and then, then you've gassed yourself, and then you're in for another 4 rounds.

You know what the best example of that is? Anderson Silva, Michael Bisping.

Yes.

He hits him with a flying knee. At the bell button. It looks like he's KO'd. It looks like the fight is over, but Herb Dean did not stop the fight. I think it was Herb Dean. And then Anderson hops up on top of the cage and is celebrating.

Yeah, he's like, yeah, he's ready to hit the showers.

Bisping comes back in the next round and wins it and wins the decision.

Yeah,

with one fucking eyeball. Animal.

How, how does that mess you up mentally? If— because I know the feeling of winning.

Here it is. See, lost his mouthpiece. Boom, he gets KO'd and Anderson walks off like that's it. And Herb Dean said, no, it's not over. So Anderson takes his mouthpiece out.

Oh, he's doing his thing.

Yeah, he's doing his thing. He thinks it's over.

How does that— how does that affect you if, like, you're there? Because the feeling you get—

So look at this. He hops up on the cage. He thinks it's over. He thinks it's over.

The feeling you get, the high you get when you win a fight is ridiculous. So if he's feeling that now— well, he obviously is. He's sitting on the cage.

They're telling him, and he's saying, it's not over. Look, he goes, fuck. He realizes it right now. It's not over. Which is crazy. Yeah, because if he just followed up with 1 or 2 shots, 100% it would have been over.

Yeah, but didn't, didn't the bell buzzer go when he landed that knee?

Maybe. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's like right there. Yeah, I think he landed the knee and then the buzzer went off like right afterwards.

Mark Hunt's walk-offs were like, I've had enough of this.

Yeah, like uppercuts.

It's like, it's like he's called it over. Yeah, it's like, this is over.

Crazy, man. Crazy. Bisping, fuck, what a fucking animal. Maybe the, like, most mentally tough guy that's ever fought in sport. Just to be able to do that with one eye. He fought 11 fights with one eye.

Yeah.

And didn't tell anybody. Memorized the eye chart.

Really?

Yeah. I

guess you have to

memorize the eye chart so you could do it with his eye closed.

I guess you have to. But no, crazy. Don't they randomize what kind of—

I don't know.

Or maybe just like,

maybe they don't. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Do they randomize eye charts? Who— what kind of an asshole is gonna memorize eye charts? I bet they don't. I bet they don't think anyone's gonna try to cheat it. I bet you just have an eye chart and you fucking memorize it.

Or whatever doctor it is, probably just like, ah, they didn't change it from last time.

Yeah, yeah, I guess. Maybe. I mean, but I think he memorized. But just the will to do that when you've already lost sight in one of your eyes. Yeah. And to continue to fight and know potentially you could lose sight in the other eye. You know, that's what—

did he lose his vision from—

It's gone.

No, like from a shot?

Yes. Was it an eye poke or a punch? Vitor. He got head kicked.

Yes, that'll do it.

Yeah, he got head kicked, and that was the first of many eye surgeries. So I remember he was— I met him backstage after one of those fights when he had had like one of his first surgeries, and he had like oil in his eye. They had injected something in his eye to protect his eyeball. It was crazy. Like, his eye looked really strange. Yeah. I was like, what's going on with your eye? And he was explaining to me he had this surgery and to protect his eye. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think by that time, he had already gotten— lost a lot of his vision.

According to a comment on Reddit.

Yeah.

He said the doctor was out of the office, Bisping went right up to it and memorized the eye chart. Yeah, I think that's what he did.

If it's on Reddit, you can take that to the bank.

Well, how about Shara Bully Ray? Yeah, who's fighting Izzy. He's only got one eye too.

Yeah, when's that? Is that Doha?

I think so. Well, he has to fight over there because I don't think he's allowed to fight over here. I think if you fight over here and you're blind in one eye, they won't let you fight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's beaten like top-level guys.

Yeah.

Yes, with one fucking eyeball.

Yep.

Here's another guy who got tuned up by Michael Venom Page.

Yeah, yeah, Michael Venom Page is just looking so annoying to fight because it's like, obviously, I, I, it's a point of pride that I'll fight everyone and anyone, but then people like, what about Michael Van Damme? Like, yeah, there's other guys. I'm like this, I only want to fight guys.

MVP's another guy that they didn't offer a contract to. Same thing, he won his last fight.

Oh no, really?

Yeah, he, I mean, he only lost once in the UFC and that was to Ian Garry.

Yeah.

And they didn't offer him a contract. He's gone.

Is he? Yeah,

he's gone.

I did not know that.

Same kind of deal.

Yeah, just point sparring.

They just decided that they don't want to see that

point fighting,

you know. But my take is— my take is that like, we have to be purists about this. Fighting is fighting.

Yeah.

And if someone has a style like that, it's up to someone else to figure out how to beat it. Yeah. Douglas Lima figured out how to beat it in Bellator. Yeah, he leg kicked him and KO'd him. him. Yes. And then he beat him in a rematch as well.

That's, that's always been my take. Like, if I had to look to dissect him, because when I was a middleweight, obviously I'm doing that with most of them, it's this leg kicks. Agile guys, agile guys, good footwork, you got to chop the tree down at the— you have to, you've got to. It's the only way. You got to slow those feet.

And most people don't realize when you're watching it, because the guys are moving around, they look normal, they're so compromised. Like, 1 or 2 hard calf kicks, yeah, you're so compromised.

Calf kicks are the worst, aren't they? Crazy. Like, one good calf kick— not only do you run the risk of like breaking that— what is it, fibula? I don't know what it is, but that bone— fibula, one of them. Yeah, you are like— because that's like breaking that's real. Yeah, like breaking that's real, but it hurts and it just, it just stuffs you up

and your, your leg doesn't work right. You see that all the time where guys just— their leg doesn't work right right now and they're trying to move around and it's just not responding correctly. So they're most of their weight is on their other leg and they're faking it. Yeah, like faking their movement.

Yeah. And once, once that leg's compromised, it opens you up to more leg kicks. Yeah, like it's harder to defend the next calf kick.

What Pratas did to Jack, my God, when Jack went back to the corner and he yelled at the end of the round, like, hey, don't fucking yell. Like, no, ah, don't say it. No, I kicks you, don't do that. Yeah, but it was so much pain.

I was watching it and saying, ah, He was just punishing that leg.

Punishing them.

And that was always like a hole Jack had to fill. Mm-hmm.

It was very boxing style. Yes, boxing. Heavy, heavy on the front leg.

And he just— yeah,

the thing too is like those guys who are really good at switching stances have a giant advantage. If you're one of those guys that must stand orthodox or must stand southpaw and you get that front leg compromised and now all of a sudden you're in a bad position, Yeah, you're 50% of what you really are.

Yes.

And guys like TJ Dillashaw, they're constantly switching. Guys like Cory Sandhagen, constantly switching. So they're comfortable from any stance. Yeah, that is such an advantage.

It's, it's such a huge part of the game. You know, in that second fight with Izzy, that's— he, he got me with a switched, switched left, left straight down the pipe, left straight down the pipe. And the switching put me off. I think Dricus did it a few times as well. He switches pretty well. Just, you're exactly right. It is such a powerful maneuver, an ability to do, because for that split second when you see them switch, you have to, you have to like take your strategy and then move over to your southpaw strategy,

right? Instantaneously. And then take it into consideration that all these punches are coming at totally different angles now.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And all your attacks come at totally different angles now too, because you're dealing with a completely different defense

Exactly. And then how fast you make that adjustment is obviously where fight IQ and everything else comes into it. It's just, it's make or break. And it's like, and it seems to be really popular right now. I feel like guys coming into MMA are like really big switch hitters. Like they're starting it because it takes a while. It takes years of practice to get comfortable in both sides. Yeah. Like, I can, I can, I can fight southpaw, but my defensive game isn't all that good. anywhere near as good as my orthodox side, you know. Yeah. And that's kind of what you need when you're standing in the different stance.

Well, that's one of the reasons why Terence Crawford is so great, is that, you know, his coaches told him, hey man, stop fucking around with southpaw, just stick to one side. He's like, what? Fuck you, figure it out. And so he got to a point where it's like he's the best switch hitter since Marvin Hagler. Yeah, like he could switch switch up with. And so you don't know what's coming. Like, he'll start off a fight southpaw and you're like, oh, he's fighting southpaw. Yeah. And then all of a sudden he's orthodox and he stuns you. Now southpaw again. Now he's orthodox again. He's just switching back and forth and combinations are coming freely from both sides. Like, it's such an advantage.

Because it's like fighting southpaws and fighting orthodox fighters, they're like 2 different strategy sets. Like, a southpaw game and an orthodox game, they're very different. Very different shots, very different openings, like very different opportunities. And especially in MMA where wrestling is obviously prevalent, so having that lead leg not there, like if, if you're a— if you're an orthodox guy and you're used to shooting on that orthodox side, that lead leg, that lead left leg, and they switch it, your takedown games are off. And if you're a wrestler, that— Yeah. That's a That's tough. Yeah,

I would feel like if you're a young fighter and you're just learning right now, my God, start switching. Yeah, there's no reason to not do it.

I think that's what they're all doing.

I think they have to.

There's a lot of like orthodox, right-handed kids that are just learning, starting in southpaw now.

Yeah, but then part of me says, but what if you just developed such an elite style with one stance like that? There's something to that too. Yes, just getting so good at checking kicks and so rock-solid in one stance Yeah,

like Pereira. He doesn't— he doesn't switch.

Very rarely. Yeah, very rarely. If he does, it's just like while he's throwing combinations, he'll switch a little bit. But it's generally that left hook. Yeah, it's coming out of nowhere. And that right hand and that calf kick, that's so weird. He's hitting you with like—

His big toe. Yeah, because his big toe's like this big. He's like digging

the side of his foot into your calf.

Yeah. And And that protrusion of like where his toe connects. Hammer toe.

Oh man. Yeah, hard as a rock.

He's got like a foot built for that kick.

He's got like a little hammer. Yeah, he's like tagging your calf muscle.

And his posture doesn't break at all because he's got long legs. He's tall, obviously, and he can just chip away at it like a jab. He doesn't need to close distance, doesn't need to back away. Body posture, body positioning doesn't change.

For striking, the tall, long stance is such Yes. It's a giant advantage. And you can speak to that because, like, you've been in situations where you've had to spar and— and when you're— or fight people that are much taller than you, it's such a weird thing. Yeah. They're so far away from you and they can hit you and you can't hit them. Yeah. So you have to do all these things to try to get in and get reads out of them.

I've never lost to someone shorter than me. You can look that up.

But it's such an advantage, man.

That's one of the things why I moved up to light heavyweight, because in middleweight I was fighting— everyone was taller than me anyway. Like Dorita, Izzy, Dricus, Chimaev, they're all taller than me. They're all 6'2, 6'4. So there wasn't much change, there wasn't much difference. These guys are just bigger, obviously heavier, and slower.

Well, the freak of the division is Bulgaris. You ever see Bulgaris? You know, that really tall dude? Dude, he's a kickboxer. Oh

yes, yes, yes, yes, come over.

How do I— am I pronouncing his name incorrectly? There's so many names in the UFC that I fuck all of them up. I combine them all together, even ones that I know. It's just like my brain doesn't recognize it.

It's because there's also like a ton of the same names in there. Yeah. Like there's that many Silvas and Oliveras.

There's a lot of Silvas, a lot of Oliveras. There's a lot of Nurmagomedovs now.

Oh my goodness.

Yursey Bulgarin, that's how you say his name, I'm pretty sure. He is the, the really tall kickboxer that's Alex Pereira's training partner.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

So he's like 6'6 and he's fighting at 185.

Yeah, just like Pereira was.

Exactly, just fucking gigantic. He's so fucking tall for that weight class. Yeah, and he's elite, elite kickboxer, just just so smooth.

How do you— do you think he'll be able to— because Pereira is an anomaly for this. Like, what— how do you think his transition will be?

Well, fortunately he's training with Pereira. Yeah, right. And they both were training with Glover, which I think was a big thing. Yeah, big part of it, because Glover Teixeira, for like 6 years— people don't realize this— before he even got to the UFC, for 6 years Glover Teixeira was the boogeyman. Yes. He was the guy that everyone was terrified of, but he couldn't get out of Brazil, so he couldn't get a visa to come to America for whatever reason. So he couldn't fight in America, so he was just training and fighting in Brazil. And everybody would talk about— when you would talk to the high-level guys, like, who's the scariest guy that's not in the UFC? Glover. Glover's a fucking monster. Yeah. By the time he got to the UFC, he was already in his mid to late 30s, so he had already— and he won the title in his first Yeah, right. So he, he had already passed his prime, probably, you know. And he is so knowledgeable. He obviously elite Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt, phenomenal wrestling, and then great striking as well, and knows how to combine the two of them together. And so with him working with Alex, I think it really sharpened his striking skills.

Yeah. And that's when he won the title. And then on top of that, like when he beat Jan Blachowicz, And then on top of that, him working with Alex really tightened up Alex's takedown defense, really tightened up his grappling game.

Like, kind of filled each other's holes.

Yes. And they're both like super elite at what they do and both very smart.

Glover's wrestling, jiu-jitsu top game was crazy. Insane. Insane. He'd take you down and he's— and he's not like a lay and pray sort of guy. He gets you down and he's gonna beat you up. Yeah, he was mauling people. Like that Anthony Smith fight.

Oh God. Yeah. And again, he was a guy that was Chuck Liddell's training partner way back in the day. Yeah, yeah. That's why I first heard about him. He's an old head from the Pit days with John Hackleman way back in the day. Yeah, yeah. So I'd heard about Glover way back then, and they were like, dude, this guy's a motherfucker. Yeah. And it took forever for him to get to the UFC.

Yeah, yeah.

And so him training— so Bulgaria's training with Pereira and Glover, I think, is a giant— am I saying his name right? I think so. But pull up his last fight, because he— I'm trying, I can't remember the dude's name. He— here, yeah, that's it. Mansour Abdoumalik and Abdul-Yursi Bulgaru. And Abdoumalik is super talented and massive potential. And Bulgar just tuned him up, man. Just tuned him up. It's just the difference in striking was so different. I mean, he has a victory over Pereira in kickboxing. Pereira stopped him in one of the fights, knocked him out cold, but they fought 3 times. But he's that good. So he's that elite on his feet, and he's super tall. And because of all the training that he's had with Glover, like, look at this takedown defense. Phenomenal. Get back up to his feet quickly, separates. He's

fighting at

And Malik is an excellent wrestler. He's really good and really strong and super athletic and had up until this point been undefeated, was mauling people inside the UFC. But Yursey just put it to him, man. Yeah, it was a bad one too because Abdul-Malik is so tough that he endured maybe more punishment than he should have and really got badly beaten up in this fight.

When, when you're that tall as well, you can get such power Look at these fucking knees. You got such big levers.

Yes, like Tommy Hearns, you know, that, that like you're getting all that leverage behind those shots. This, the wide shoulders and the length of the arms, and it's all like accelerating to the target and all your weight. Look at that left hook. Oh my goodness. So it's just a matter of time. He just keeps getting touched over and over and over again, and Bulgaria's just doing it so slick. And it was a— it was just a brutal, brutal beatdown. And then he came back. Abdul-Malik came back, I think, a little too soon in his next fight and lost again. Just didn't seem like the same guy. He was just getting— survived too many of these, man. Yeah, too many of these moments where he was getting just destroyed.

Yeah,

and now he's screaming at him while he's down. Oh, Jesus. I think that might have been the end of the round.

No, it was, but I think he was also saying he was out. Yeah, I wasn't calling it. I

think he was— he certainly was close to it, and then he got beat up again the next round.

Tight kickboxing hook.

Exactly. Like, it's just when, you know, and you could speak to this, when you're fighting a guy who's not— that's not his base, you can get so good. If you're a wrestler and you start striking when you're 28, you get pretty good, but there's stuff that happens in a long, prolonged fight where these series of exchanges where there's openings that you're gonna leave that you're not aware of, and then a striker, a seasoned striker, is gonna be able to capitalize.

And you throw, you throw in fatigue as well when, when you start relying on instincts and things like you start like sleepwalking almost, you get that tired, right? Yeah, if you, if you, you're gonna, you're gonna go back to the roots, to what got you to where you are,

right? Right, right, especially when you're tired. And when a guy's tired but he's very efficient at striking, you could still throw tight combinations. You still— you don't get wild and loose. Yeah, which is one of the craziest things about Strickland. Like, when he's tired, he gets wild and loose. Yeah, just like literally like windmill punches. Yeah.

And it looks like from all the— like, from the clips and his Instagram, he spars like that too. Yeah, like he's just— he's just like gassed and throwing bombs. Like And he's always sparring.

I know, always.

Always sparring.

That's a main part of his training, is sparring.

But I guess, like, if you have his style, you can spar more than others, right? Yeah. You're not taking the head trauma that his partners are.

That's true. That's one of the things that he spoke to. He said he spars more than anybody and he gets hit less than anybody.

Yeah, yeah. And I— yeah, that's—

there's something beneficial.

I think his sparring partners probably shouldn't be sparring as much.

But I mean, look, if you could train with that guy, you're gonna learn some stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That guy, that's like battle-tested. He's been in so many fucking wars. He's going through something with the UFC right now where like he says his heart isn't in MMA anymore. He wants to get out. He wants to be able to box Jake Paul.

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. He's like, he's the one guy that he says some wild crap, but some— a lot of it happens. Like, he gets away with it. Like Like, like when he said, I'm just gonna sit out until I get my title shot, everyone's like, ah, you're an idiot, what are you doing? What are you doing? Lo and behold, 2 years later, he's fighting for the belt, right? Like, straight, straight up. I don't know.

At the end of the day, he's a fan favorite, and that's a big factor if you're trying to sell a fight. Yeah. And the UFC needs to sell fights. Yeah. And if you've got a world champion, you know, like Khamzat, and you need someone to fight him, who better to sell the damn fight than Sean Strickland? He's gonna tell He's gonna talk mad amounts of shit.

Oh, and it's gonna be racist. It's gonna be racist. And you know, that gets people watching. Oh yeah, just because of the controversy of it all.

Well, he knows how to stir up the pot.

Oh my goodness, doesn't he?

That's for sure.

Doesn't he?

Were you surprised by the Khamzat fight?

As everyone else was. Yeah, like, I, I don't know what to take from it. Like,

I think Khamzat lost too much weight. That's what I had heard. I had heard he had given up on 185 and he wanted to go up to 205 and challenge for the belt and was training and preparing for that. And then they offered him a big-money fight with Strickland and he decided to take the fight with Strickland. But I don't think they gave him a lot of time. I don't think they gave— I think for that guy, he gets so fucking big that I think he needs a lot of time to get down to 185.

That makes more sense to me. than Strickland having the perfect anti-Chimaev game.

Well, do you remember when Chimaev missed weight with Nate Diaz by like £8?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's that kind of thing. It's like what he, what he was doing was kind of bananas.

Yeah, which is crazy because he started at welterweight. Mm-hmm. Same thing. He went— yeah, he did that, that Fight Island welterweight, middleweight, uh-huh, back-to-back. Yeah, it's kind of put him on the map, and then he disappeared for a little bit.

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, he's a controversial character, to put it lightly.

Yeah, very.

But goddamn, when he's on— like when he picked up the Leech and he carried him over to Dana White, and he's just talking shit while he's mauling him.

Yeah, yeah. When you have that level of control— and I'm gonna jump back to that Dricus fight. It's just

nuts

to do that to Dricus, to the champion.

I know,

like it wasn't It was crazy.

Yeah.

And even the closest round, which was round 5, a lot of those positions were given to him, uh, taken away from him by the ref anyway.

Right.

Like, the, the ref was like, all right, here you go. Okay, here's a shot for you, old Dricus.

Well, it was almost like it was enough, like enough control. Like, come on, we want to see something happen. Get up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got I want to get your opinion on— what do you, what do you think about that pressure hold game? Like, because I like— if someone walks into your house and holds you down for 15 minutes, you're in trouble, right? Regardless. Yeah. But, but like, where does it stop of like where it's not fighting anymore,

right? It's just control.

Yeah. Where's that?

It's a good question.

Yeah.

I am a purist, and I believe if someone could hold you down like Ben Askren used to do in Bellator and just give you no breaks for 5 rounds, that's it. Like, and if you want to get up, figure out a way to get up. But if you can't get up, well, you're definitely losing. Yeah, you know, you might not be losing the way Gonzaga beat Prokop. Yeah, but you're losing. You're losing the fight. And I think you have to be a purist. You can't do it entire— and they'll— whoa, no, people stop tuning in. No, they won't, because most people aren't gonna fight like that. Yeah, yeah, people might boo. Okay, let them boo. Yeah, this is what fighting is.

People are gonna boo anyway. They're animals. People always find something to boo about. Well,

it's like if you had a fight like that after— like, did you see the Salt Lake City card?

When was that?

That was recently, like a couple weeks ago. And it was like—

Allen?

It was— no, the main event was Joshua Van and Pantoja. Was that LA? No, that was LA. Am I wrong? Yeah, I'm wrong. What was the— though, the main event was— it was the women's flyweight title. Yeah, Natalia Silva and Wong Tong. Yes, that was the main event, but all the fights up to that were fucking chaos. It was all first-round chaos.

I think the most knockouts in the card, wasn't it?

Yes. So Davison Figueiredo got knocked out by Peyton Talbot. Ribovics knocked out King Green. Soldich and Chaos Williams was a crazy fight, went to unanimous decision. And that was when Roman Kopilov knocked out Ateba Gauthier. So, so it was all these crazy chaotic fights, and the main event was fucking fantastic. It was a great main event, even though a lot of people were talking shit about it. It was a great fight. Yeah, a lot of fun. But if you had a fight like that on that card— so every— I think it was like 10 first-round stoppages. If you had a fight where it was just a boring hold them down and give them noogies, the crowd's gonna go nuts. Yeah, they're gonna fuck you.

Yeah. The fans of this sport are funny, aren't they? Oh yeah, they are funny. They are like the best and worst of them. Yes, they jump ship so quickly. It's like you have one hard fight, like, and you've been fighting for any amount of time and you're washed.

It's 11 knockouts. Broke the record, the UFC record for the most knockouts in a single UFC event, surpassing Imovov versus Bohaglio.

That was, that was when, that was Johnny Walker's The heavyweight debut, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what's funny is, 'cause I tuned in and I was watching it, and I was like, man, I don't like this light heavyweight stuff. Like, 'cause I remember, I just remember Johnny Walker from being a light heavyweight. When I first saw him, I was like, man, maybe I should go back to middleweight, 'cause I still thought he was there. And then I saw the heavyweight thing, I was like, ah.

Well, I think he was the point of diminishing returns where he lost so much weight to make light heavyweight. He couldn't take a shot.

Yeah, not at all. No. Yeah,

when Jamal Hill knocked him out and he hit him with a straight right to the forehead and he just like—

yeah, yeah.

I just don't think he could take a shot with that. He was so dehydrated, his brain was dehydrated.

And he did it for so long though, like it, it took so long for him because he got hit in that fight too by heavyweights. Yeah, but also his power carried over 100%.

Well, he was always power. Yeah, like real. And when you're 205, the difference between a guy who could knock you out at 205 and the guy who can knock you out above that, it's not much. No, not much at all. But those big guys like that,

yeah,

yeah,

they're the ones— once you're above 205, everyone's got that touch of death almost. Like, that's how I treat training right now. It's just like, just go.

Do you approach like fighting differently now? Like, are you thinking differently as you're fighting because you can't make any mistakes.

Definitely, definitely, definitely. And can I, can I quickly run to the bathroom?

We'll be right back, folks. We gotta pee. And we're back. Where were we? Okay, so we're talking about you training differently and fighting differently with bigger guys, and that you have a very distinctly different mindset.

Yeah, definitely. It's— well, it all started like when I was at my last fight at middleweight with DeRida, I did not enjoy that camp. I did not enjoy that fight. Like something was missing. I was like, the flame, the flair, the fire kind of fizzled out a little bit. And at that point I was like, man, what am I doing? Something has to change. I'm not enjoying it as I should be. And obviously the 12-week camp or whatever you do before the fight leads itself a lot to that. Like, it lends itself. Wears you out. Yeah, it makes the whole thing a drag, you know. But then the changes— I was like, well, let's go to light heavyweight. People have been saying for years, like, you should go to light heavyweight, because I've always been a heavier set guy. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And then— but more than that needed to change. I wanted to enjoy fighting. I wanted to bring the love back for it. So I just started being a bit freer. You know how we were talking about the happy Rob is— Yeah. Dan Tropper, trying to be a bit freer.

I stopped— like, whilst fighting is like, I'm hyper-focused on fighting, and that is like something that is the objective, that is the goal. I took a little bit off, stepped away a little bit from it so that I could go to my kids' soccer games, you know, instead of running sand Like things like that. I started enjoying kind of the moments between fighting, which is— there's a lot, right? So just enjoying that made such a big mental difference. And then I took that into the workroom. And in the workroom, a big thing was just like, let's not get hit. Let's try not to get hit at all. These guys are big guys. They have— every one of them has the touch of death. Let's not play around with that. Let's not roll the dice. Right. Let's try to be as evasive and as technical as I can, because that's where— I see me having than like everyone else in the division. I think my skill set is higher holistically across the board. And yeah, that took me into that fight and I felt really comfortable. Obviously, I was fighting a lot of nervous demons and nerves like coming off 2 losses, making the move up.

Everyone's seen that story. Mm-hmm. But yeah, no, it was for the better.

For the better mentally, like the way you felt?

Definitely, definitely. I felt way better. The camp was much more enjoyable. The tricky part is now the after-camp, kind of the after-the-fight period block, because I'm a bigger guy and I can eat more. I'm gonna like— eating is a slippery slope.

Yeah, tell me about it. I'm a glutton.

I know what you're talking about, bro. I can relate. Yeah, it's just, it's, it— so I'm trying to work on that still because whereas like when middleweight I could, you know, you— I'd get bigger but you can't go too crazy because you know you got to get back down 85 at one point.

Yeah,

whereas light heavyweight I can eat everything.

What are you walking around at before you start your cut?

Uh, I'm 106 kilos now, so what's that, 232?

Not too

Yeah,

it's still— yeah, £25.

Yeah, I can like— I can train now, I try, but not great. I want to— I like— I don't want to start a camp at this weight, put it that way.

Right.

I think it's too heavy to start a camp.

And when do you— what do you get down to when you start your camp?

Probably 103. So that's, I don't know, 220— no,

225.

£10 less, it's 2.2 0.05 per pound or per kilo to transfer to pounds.

So what is the total?

3 would be like 7. It's like 6.£6.

So what's the total?

What?

It'd be like 225-ish.

Yeah, from 232, you're just dropping down 6.

Yeah, come on.

So just enough.

Yeah,

you get close.

Well, you just, just lose a little bit of that beer gut.

What do you get down to like Like the week of the fight?

I, I do my cut in the bath at 220.

Oh, okay. So you're still cutting 15?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah, because it's like I mentioned, I'm a good sweater, so I can, I can do that in about an hour and a half.

£15?

Yeah.

Wow.

Just hop in a bath, hour and a half.

The bath is the move?

I've done— because I've been fighting so long, and when I started You couldn't just Google how to cut weight. You just get these wrestling sort of camps. It's very different. They'd be like, go for a 15-mile run wrapped up in sweats, which I did. That's how I started. That's how everyone cut weight in the beginning. You put on your sweats, you go for a run. But I did sauna. The problem with the sauna is if I stay too long in there, my esophagus dries out sometimes and it burns if it's hot enough.

How hot are you getting in there?

I'm not sure. Like, I want to sweat because, because like when you start sweating, maybe it was too hot for too long. But, um,

I talked to Ethan Ewing about that. Yeah. And one of the things that he was saying is he doesn't do it at like a really high temperature. He does it at like 165, I think he was saying.

Well, I know the science supports that. You just need it to be hot enough,

right,

to sweat. So, but that's kind of our approach.

Not really weaken yourself. Yeah, that was his tip. Yeah, exactly. That at really high temperatures you're actually breaking your body down too much, and you could sweat as much at a lower temperature, but you're not, you're not going to be like tortured.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of why I do bath, because you just put it, you put it warm, you hop in, lay down, you're resting. You know, it's like training or like running or moving or hitting mitts while I'm dehydrating, like when I have to fight the day after, right?

You know, you're wearing yourself out.

I feel like I'm wearing myself out. I don't have the water to like sustain the muscles, you know. It's just, it's just, and it's like you can just chill out, put some music on.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, I find it like comfortable almost.

Well, people are finding all sorts of different ways to figure it out. Do you water load?

Hit and miss with that one. Hit and miss because I don't know if it actually works. Really? Yeah, because like I'll do it and it'll come off. But I don't know if the water's just— if the weight's coming off just because the diet change, or if because it's actually because of the water. And also, like, depending on who you speak to, people water load differently. Some guys, like, restrict it. Some guys go backwards. Some guys go up to only a certain amount. Some guys go as high as they can. It's just, it's all kind of different. I think I do it now more as, like, Superstition.

That's funny, just because you think you're supposed to.

Yeah, and because like it'd be worse if it does it— if it did work and I get in the bath and I have to cut like £20, right?

You know? Yeah. Have you ever done it with like one of those elite weight-cutting coaches? Like there's a few of those guys that people bring in that are like real experts in monitoring the exact amount of sodium you take and the exact amount of water you drink at this day and the amount that you drink at that day and they get you perfectly to that threshold?

No, no, I haven't. But I've got to ask you, like, how much, especially in like, if we look at the grassroots of fighting, like we are just 2 men with sticks and rocks, right? We're just like cavemen. Like how much sometimes does science dilute what it is we're doing? We're just oonga boonga-ing. You know, we are.

Sort Yeah, but also super skillful. Yeah, there's like, there's both things that are happening simultaneously. It's like, yes, skill and technique, but it's also fucking raw. Yes, that's in there too.

And that'll get you so far. Yeah, having that dog. Yeah, like that guy that'll go further than you will, right? And a lot of— most, most fighters have it. But I wonder sometimes if the science— if sometimes we get too caught up in science? Because you see that a lot with like today's like younger guys coming in, like their parents are getting them into it because they've been watching UFC their whole life. So the kids starting mixed martial arts with like an elite program and, and they're like doing the best things, eating the best foods, like, and they get too technical when, when, when a lot of the guys that are champions and stuff like that, they were just punching on in garages. Right.

Or Strickland. Yeah, look at Strickland. Like, that's not the most scientific approach, just to constantly spar and talk shit to people while you're sparring them.

To be fair, like, he's, he's able to constantly spar because he's beating people up.

Right, but he's beating good people up.

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it'd be different if he was like getting brain damage every time he stepped in there.

Yes. Yeah, well, he's got a very elusive style. It's a weird style. It's tricky, isn't it? up, hard to take down, deep kicks to the body. And a lot of it is predicated on that left— that right leg being all fucked up. You know, he blew his leg apart in a motorcycle accident. Yeah, he's missing a big piece of his quad.

His story is actually like really cool, like his comeback story.

It's kind of crazy. Yeah, he's a very unusual guy and very underestimated in terms of his intelligence because he says so many wild things. Yeah, but he fights intelligently and it's, it's a difficult style. Like, you see when he fought Fluffy Hernandez, like, Hernandez was on a tear up into that fight. Yeah. And Strickland just beat the brakes off of him

easily.

Yeah, like, it was the brakes.

It wasn't close. It wasn't close. And the fans are— the fans are brutal because, like, they just— as soon as that happened, everyone was like, fraud checked. That's the worst.

Oh, they're the fraud check thing. Fuck you. Yeah, there's so many casuals, and not just casuals but cruel people Like, they say cruel things for engagement. Yeah. And they think they're being intelligent when they're saying it. Like, fuck off, man. You're a cunt.

And fighting is like— it is the most primal, vulnerable position 2 men can be in.

Yes.

You know what I mean? Like, these are 2 guys out there putting their souls on the line with the consequence of getting knocked out in front of their friends and family and the world.

Yeah.

It's like, no one takes that risk except these guys for your entertainment. Right. And then these guys, just backstab us. Yeah, it's brutal.

And it's usually the loudest voices are the biggest pussies. Yeah, the biggest pussies.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, it's like, I heard a lot of that from Peyton Talbot after he lost to Hauney Barcelos. Yeah, they were saying fraud check, fraud check. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. He found an area of his game that he needs to improve, and then look what happened when he came back.

Then he did.

He figured it out. He figured it out, bitch. And he came back and fucked up Henry Cejudo.

Killing people, man.

Killing people.

He's killing people. He's so good.

He's so good. I really hope that fight with him and Sugar Sean O'Malley takes place. I really hope that fight takes place because I think—

Such a good fight.

That is a gigantic fight and such a good fight on paper, you know.

Do you reckon Payton wrestles? Because he can wrestle.

He can wrestle. I mean, he certainly did with Henry Cejudo. It's possible. I mean, that's an area of his game that he just jumped way up after the Hauney Barcelos fight. Oh

my God, he just— yeah, like he took the wrestling to Cejudo.

Yeah, it's crazy. When he took Cejudo down, I was like, this is madness. This kid is special.

Oh, it's cheeky.

He's very special. He's very, very unique. Yeah, his approach to this.

And you can tell he's feeling himself right now. Mm-hmm. Like he's flowing. He's in that flow state right now.

Yeah, man, and he loves it. He loves competing. He loves fighting. He really do, really, really does. I mean, there's a lot of great fights for him, and I understand Sean's position. If I was Sean, I would not take that fight right now either, because Petr Yan and Merab Dvalishvili are gonna fight this weekend. And if Petr Yan wins again, yeah, the big fight is him and Sean O'Malley, because the last fight that he lost was to Sean O'Malley. So that is an amazing— Sean's close. It was very close. Yeah, very good. And also a 3-rounder. Yeah, right. So imagine if that fight goes 5, who knows what happens, right? It gets crazy. I think

that's where the money is too.

The money's there. What also, it's like, that's the fight you want. Like, yeah, Payton Talbot would be a good fight for the fans, but that's not the right fight to take right now. Yeah, it's great for Payton.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, but there's a lot of great fights for Payton. There's so many good names.

He's just— yeah, he's right up up there. Yeah, dismantling people.

So many good fights in that division. There's so many good fights in that division. That division is just fucking chock-full of talent. Mm-hmm. You know, 135 right now is a— like, I think

it's a melting pot, isn't it?

The biggest divisions right now are probably like 50s and 55s. Insane. 55 is just fucking insane. There's so much talent at 55.

It's fun right now.

Yeah, very fun. 70s, fucking insane. Yeah, you know, it's like there's— 45 is insane, and 55 is all laying on whether or not Justin decides to retire. Yeah, what does he do? Who does he fight?

Who do you think he fights?

I think Arman's the fight.

Yeah,

the big fight is Arman, especially after what Arman did to Hoofy. That's the big fight. And also, it's like, that's the most compelling fight because Arman looks like indestructible. Yes, he looks like the guy.

Yeah, and he's like— that hoofie really made a statement, really cemented the argument. And arguably, he's already supposed to fight for the title,

right? If it wasn't for that one thing where he hurt his back the day before he's fighting Islam, yep, it would have already happened.

Yep.

And look, he fought Islam in his first fight ever in the UFC.

What a guy to debut on.

Right? And that close, I mean, razor-close decision loss. Yeah, to Islam,

one of the best ever.

Yeah, so he's really fucking good, and that's the fight. However, if I was— if I was Justin and I'm looking at the landscape and I'm like, well, who do I fight? I mean, you could fight— if Oliveira wins in his next fight and Oliveira retains the BMF title, and then Justin fights him for the rematch for the BMF title and for the lightweight title together. I could see that fight too, but it seems like you're denying Arman what he's deserved.

Yes,

Arman deserves a title fight.

And he's been fighting. Yeah, like, and fighting Hoofy, especially after the performances Hoofy's been putting on, especially the

one at the White House against Chandler. That was an execution. Yeah, that was— that one was crazy.

I saw that coming, bud.

I

think everyone saw it coming.

I was, you know, saying, Chandler, I really hope you figure something out here. Yeah, but you know, Chandler's style is so difficult to handle. That long, tall, elite striker at this stage of his life. Chandler's 40.

Yeah, exactly.

At this stage of his life.

That makes me wonder, it's like, look at, look at Gaethje, look at Chandler, look at like most of the guys in my division. I think I'm one of the younger ones, right? You know, like, what do you— the age of these athletes are just going up.

Well, I think with proper training and with all the different different sports science modalities today, like particularly people that are using hyperbaric chambers, red light therapy, saunas, cold plunges, massage, all these different training methods that they're doing to strengthen all their tissues and make sure they don't get injured and increasing their cardio scientifically and all the nutrition. Everybody's got everything dialed in. You can extend your lifespan a lot further than you could a few years back. Yeah.

Well, I hold a great belief in longevity. Like, that's why me and my wife actually just created an app that like really focuses on sports science, longevity. What's it called? Ascend Fitness by Rob.

Ascend Fitness by Rob. All right. There's something like— so what's— there it is. Handsome bastard. So what is— what's going on in this? What's in the app?

It's honestly, it's programs just like built around making like what got me to be able to perform for so long. Because you know how rare it is to be able to fight at this level for the length of time, right?

Right.

Like, that, that's always the hardest thing is the longevity. The turnover rate in the UFC is like super fast. So like performance, doing these little things, performance training, conditioning, to make life better. We just want to make life better. But what we do differently, and this is kind of an avenue that I started playing with the idea when I wasn't going on a title run, before I had my success in my last fight. It's like, I want to move into like health, fitness with my wife. I always want to do it with my wife because she's the one that got me into everything. So I wanted to, to be able to give back, create an immunity, uh, community, get guys on board, start working up. Like, we have monthly Q&As where people can talk to me. Like, I want to I want to be able to tell them, like, give me questions. We have a bunch of coaches on board that can give like form feedback straight away, but also just to talk to. I think that's so important, especially with training. Like, you need that human element of what's going on, how you're feeling, where's your head at.

Because that, as we spoke earlier, it's like happy Rob's a dangerous Rob. That mental ability, it's like when you're feeling on top of the world and you can do anything, Like, we try and make sure you have that every day just by check-ins, by talking and things like that.

I'm gonna sneeze. I'm gonna hope I don't blow my back out.

Flex that.

Because the fucking thing hurts. And I'm like, all right, I'm okay.

Flex that core.

So have you ever worked with a sports psychologist?

I've— yeah, throughout my career I have. I spoke to one, but I

What do they do for you?

It depends. I think guys, and this is just my take, okay? Because everyone has their own take on everything. I think guys sometimes just need to talk, like just shit talk, you know, like that. I think that's why pub culture was so important for men, you know, going through the years because they lower their guard a little bit and they just start shit talking. It's like what we're doing now. This is great. And we're just talking. And in that, I'm venting, I'm letting out stresses. I'm saying things that make me vulnerable. I'm saying things that like, I just want another opinion on because like sometimes you just need to say something and then you need the other guy to be like, nah, you're a pussy. You know what I mean? And sometimes that gets you going. You're like, you know what? Yes. Or he goes, nah, it'll be all right. And you know, you just talking. I think talking is so important.

Right. So like it helps you come to grips with whatever the thing is bouncing around inside your head by yourself. Yeah,

because as men and as fighters, some of our thoughts aren't like talk-to-your-wife thoughts. You know what I mean? Like, to all the women out there, this is what I'm saying. Like, we get it. You get it. Like, our thoughts are sometimes stupid, but we just need a place to put them.

Right. And put them with another man. who's gonna understand? Dude, I get it. Someone's gonna say, I get it.

I think so. And then, and obviously that's why like support circles and friends and family are super important. Like having those guys you can turn to and just, and just, just talk to, man, you know?

Yeah, well, that's what— when, when guys run afoul in their gym and have to leave the gym, that's always like a giant problem because that— the people that you train with on a daily basis, you spar with, you grind with, those are like brothers.

Yep.

And people who have gone to competition with people that they've trained with constantly, like, you have so much invested in them. Like, you— it hurts. It's sometimes— I've seen this with training partners where their friends fighting makes them more nervous than when they're fighting. Oh yeah, it's the love that they have for these guys.

I can't go to any of my team fights. Like, it kills me. Like, it just, it just kills me. But you're 100% right. Like, guys you've bled and sweat with in the gym for any amount of time, like, you, you build a connection there. Like, even if you don't like them— like, there's heaps of guys in my gym that, like, I don't bond with. Like, I want to go— I'm not going to go to him like, hey, let's go grab some food.

But you still root for him.

Oh, if he, if he calls me up, says I need help, I'm getting jumped, I'm there. I'm in the car already. Like, we're that close, right? Or if, like, if he's like, yeah, it's just you build that sort of bond. Like, it's a brotherhood.

Yes.

You know? And

so when you see a guy, like, leave a gym, it's like—

I've never had— yeah, that's got to be huge. I've never had that happen.

I don't know what happened with Izzy, you know? I don't know what's going on, but I know he left City Kickboxing, and that was a stunner for me. I was like, I can't— yeah, because Eugene Behrman has been a staple part of his career. Yeah. And he's an amazing coach. Like, he's so good. Yeah. He's such a mastermind. He's one of the few real legitimate masterminds in the sport. So when I saw that, I was like, oh no, like, that's a bad place to be. Like, psychologically, I leave the family.

Yeah, that's— and for all I know, I think he's still living in New Zealand too. And that was, that was huge for me because I had just trained with him there. Like, I was just training with him there. And then, you know, I found that out, and obviously I'm still gonna go to go to CKB and stuff because I have good relationship with them and I did some really good work with it. And for me, everywhere, everywhere is so far for Australia. Australia is on the ass end of nowhere. I realized that coming flying here, it was like to get to Austin, it was like 17 and a half hours of flight time.

Oh my God.

Like, why? We're so far. Well, that's why people

want to build bunkers over there.

Exactly. The selling point.

All those fucking billionaire dudes who are like worried about the end of the world, they all get a bunker in either New Zealand or Australia.

Yeah, well, that's, that's why I like New Zealand, because obviously like the Kiwis, guys, they're big boys. Yeah. And you've got some good prospects like Navajo, Sterling Wright now. Yeah. Carlos Ulberg, obviously. Yeah. Tyson Pedro. Like these big boys that I can work with. But for me, it's only like 3 hours. That's not bad. 2, yeah, like 3-hour flight. That's great. Yeah, that's great. Like, yeah, I can't ask for more.

Yeah, you guys live in a crazy country. It's so big and there's so few people in it, so it's so— everything's so far away.

Yeah, but, but a lot of like the non— I don't know, a lot of it's desert.

I know, but you have the population of Los Angeles in a country the size of the United States.

Don't say it like that. Don't say it like that. You guys always like— it's not a bad thing. You guys always come over here I'm like, oh, that's cute.

Now listen, I love Australia. I love it there. I love the people. They're very friendly. It's a fun culture. I really do love Australia. But I mean, the, the, just the, the actual geography of Australia is crazy, and it's filled with things that want to kill you.

Yes.

Like, bro, you guys got to start killing those crocodiles.

No, but you know—

Bring them— bring back killing crocodiles. Make that fun again.

Make that, make that fun.

Why are you guys letting the crocodiles live? That's insane. They're protected and they're eating people.

They're not eating people.

They're eating people.

Oh, mate, if you were stupid enough— if you're stupid enough to go for a swim in the river that you clearly can't see the bottom of.

Listen, this is how I feel. If I live in a place and I'm a human, anything else that lives in the place that wants to kill me should be dead. Dead. Fuck you. This is my ground. I'm the person. I'm the one with the brain, the opposable thumbs, and I have the guns. Fuck off. If you want to eat my kids, I kill all of you. There's none of you left. I put a few of you in a zoo and we could stare at you from behind the glass. Fuck you forever.

It's funny, alligators seem cute by comparison to crocs.

They do.

Alligators are kind of like dopey crocs.

Have you ever seen what happens when they get the two of them together? So they— there's this place in Florida where they have alligators and crocodiles all intermingling, and Nile crocodiles. And so when they feed them, the crocodiles run over the top of the alligators' heads to get the food. They're like, fuck you, give me that food, bitch.

It's like, you're just a pretend croc anyway.

It's like the difference between a fucking golden retriever and a pit

bull. That gets me. Like, brown snakes are annoying. I hate those because I've got kids.

Well, because they kill you.

Yeah, they're very poisonous.

Only a person in Australia would say they're annoying.

Well, they don't hang out with you. It's not like they're trying to invade. They just—

Oh, I understand.

You just don't go into any hot bushes.

Until you have to go into a hot bush.

The funnel webs as well. They're very venomous, but just don't put your hands in any wet holes.

Yeah, always good advice anyway.

Yeah, good advice. Solid advice. Can keep you out of trouble, trust me, guys. Take that to the bank.

But you have so many different bugs and spiders. Like my friend Adam Greentree, he lives over there. He just got bit 2 months ago by some fucking spider when he was camping. Yeah, and it's like lethal. He almost died.

No.

Yes. Really? Yeah, I forget what it's called, some green something or another. He told me, and apparently he— it didn't even get him. What happened was as he slapped it, it was crawling on him, and as he slapped it, its stinger went into him a little bit. Yeah. But not enough to kill him, because otherwise it would have been lethal.

No, really?

Yeah.

You know, and I thought of this just now, maybe the reason why we let them all live is to keep people out.

It's not a bad idea.

That's a great idea.

Right. You keep your population low, it's like less problems.

Because like a lot of Americans are like, Australia, everything's trying to kill you. I'm never going to Australia.

It's

like,

it's not that bad. I have friends that go over there and hunt all the time, but it's, uh, it is a great country in terms of like the spirit of the people. Yes, they're fun people. Yes, generally speaking, Australians are fun. It's a great place to do comedy. It's like they have a good time. Yeah, it's like it's a great drinking culture. It's a great laughing culture. It's a lot of fun.

The drinking culture is a slippery slope. It's like, because we probably like a bit too much.

Yeah, as it is everywhere where it's fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fucking Ireland or anywhere.

The, the vibe at the, the club last night, the— was just amazing. The energy was so good. It was my first time, and that has sparked my ambition to go to ones in, in Sydney and, and stuff.

Well, there's a great comic that, uh, lived in Austin for a while and he moved to Australia, James McCann. He's one of my favorites. He's one of the best up-and-coming comics in the world right now, and fucking hilarious Australian dude. And he went back. He, he just— wife just had a new baby and she wanted to like get help with the family, and so they went back to Australia. But he's planning on coming back to America again. Yeah, but if he's performing in Australia, I'll send you to him. Yeah, cuz he's fucking great. He's so funny.

Yeah, I've got—

there he is, McCann.

Performing in November.

Oh, there he is. So Perth, Adelaide, Sydney, and Brisbane.

Yeah.

Uh, in November. Yeah, go see that dude.

I've got the itch now.

Fucking brilliant.

Yeah, I've got the itch. That was, that was a great time.

It's fun, right?

Oh, it was great. It was great. It was just like relaxed. Everyone was laughing. Like, laughter is special.

Yeah,

it's special. It gives you a special sort of energy. I'm very big on energy of people and stuff like that. So when when you get— you put them all in one place and it's just—

With one goal, to have a good time.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's— it's one of the few places in the world really where everyone comes with like no baggage,

right?

Like no one comes with any sort of expectation of— everyone has the same goal, same objective.

Yeah, good intentions. Go there to have a good time. And that's sort of burned into the spirit of the building by this point. You know, we've been open for a few years. It's like, just, I have a real— really believe that. Like, The Comedy Store in LA is a great example of that. When you go there, it's like burned into the walls of the building, the laughter, all the years of fun and excitement.

Yeah, the energy seeped into the concrete. Yeah, and you can, you can feel it. You can feel it's like it's got a culture. It's like a heaviness to it when you walk through it. It was cool. It was cool. Can't thank you enough.

That's awesome, brother. I'm glad you had a good time, and I'm glad we did this. You know, I've been a fan of yours for a long time, and I've always loved hearing you talk in interviews. I'm like, that'd be a fun guy to have on the podcast. Yeah, and you are great, man.

This has been so much fun.

Oh, my pleasure. You should probably do your own podcast. You'd be great at it.

Uh, yeah, I do have one on YouTube.

Oh, you do?

Yeah, MM Arcade. But we, we just talk about like fights and, and like video games.

Oh, nice. Like Mighty Mouse.

Yeah, yeah. Well, yes, yes, to a degree.

Nice. Have you done his podcast?

I have, plenty of times. He's a great guy to talk to.

I fucking love that dude.

Another energy, another piece of energy. Like, he just— he— his vibes when you're talking to him, because you know what it is, and it's not rocket science, you just have to be invested in the person you're talking to.

Yes.

That's it. Yeah, for real.

You have to really be there.

Yeah, that's it. And, and he's great at that. You're obviously the maestro of it. Like, talking with you is just so easy. Hours just fly by. It's so much fun.

Thanks. I'm glad you had fun, man. It flies by for me too. You know, it's just that the key is only talk to people you actually want to talk to. You never have to fake it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But yeah, Mighty Mouse is awesome at that. And to me, he's like one of the greatest examples ever of mixed martial arts excellence. Like, watching him perform when he was at his best, he was just a master. Yes, just a master. Yeah, one of the all-time—

Uncanny, that flying armbar.

Oh my god,

like, to chain that

suplex into an armbar.

Like, in a fight. Yeah, it's just— yeah, he does things that— that it's like you're playing the game. Yeah, dude. You know what I mean?

And his speed— there's something about the speed of flyweights too. One time, uh, I grabbed him at a UFC just to say hi, just fucking around. I grabbed him from behind and he turned around, he went— he hit me with 2 knees to the body. Like, didn't hurt me, just touched me, but they were so fast my brain didn't process it. My brain was like, what? What did you just— how did you do— what the fuck just happened? Because it's one thing to watch it play out, but it's another thing when those knees just come at your body like that and you realize, like, that's the speed that they're competing at. Yeah, like when you watch Joshua Van versus Pantoja.

What a fight.

How good is Joshua Van?

Oh yeah, and like, and I'm so happy he, um, like silenced everyone about that Pantoja fight.

Well, he kind of did with the Tyra fight. fight, because the Tyra fight was so good. I know, but dude, Joshua is another level, man.

He is, and he's just evolving. Yeah, every fight. That's just like Talbot. It's like, I think that's, that's this new generation. Yep. Their level, their ability to adapt and grow so fast between fights.

Yep.

Like, yeah, it's just, it's—

and as a champion, I think he's even more confident than ever, you know. It's just, oh my God, it's such an exciting time for the sport.

That's why those younger generation is why I'm developing an app. That's why I brought out a fitness app.

Well, listen, man, thank you for being here. Good luck with the app. Good luck with everything in your future. It's been a pleasure.

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

All right, great. If anybody wants to get a hold of you on Instagram, what is your handle? What is

it? Rob Whittaker MMA.

Okay. And Twitter, do you use that?

Yes, yes, yes. It's all the same, all the same handle.

Website?

The website is ascendfitness.com. 50% off first This month. All

right, thanks, brother. Thank you. Bye, everybody.