Transcript of JRE MMA Show #175 with Shakur Stevenson New

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Well, anyway, thanks for coming down here, man. I appreciate it. And congratulations on that standout performance against Tiafima because that was a giant wake-up call for the entirety of boxing. The level that you're on was so high that you could be in there with a world champion, a world champion, and make him a guy who beat, I mean, legit guys, including Lomachenko. It was a big victory for him. And you made him look like he had no business in there.

Honestly, it's just hard work, dedication, and God-given ability. God-given ability.

I think you have all that plus intelligence, plus you start real young. And there's something about those dudes who start real young. You grow up with that. It's like in your central nervous system as you're a young child. I mean, would you start boxing at five?

I started boxing at five, but honestly, you could say the same for T. O. Too, because he started at seven. We both was similar in experience. But I just feel like with me, the God-given ability of my instincts always kick When we fought, I felt like my brain just knew how to win. Everything was just like my instincts kicked in and everything just took over. It felt like an out-of-body experience.

Well, you're a very tactical guy. One of the things I love about watching you fight is I love watching a guy who sets traps and who avoids damage. And you are one of the absolute very best ever at setting traps and avoid damage. You take so few punches in your fights. There was that one fight, a recent fight, where you decided to stand with that dude. Who was that?

William Zepeda.

That's right. Zepeda is a tough guy, man. He is. But you fought that in a different way. Did you do that on purpose?

It was partly on purpose and partly to get his respect. Because I really didn't have a choice but to get his respect. Because if I were to try to outbox him and move around the ring, I probably would have made the fight harder than it had to be. So I knew I got to make him respect me early. And that's when I started the fight. Hot.

Why would it make it harder than it had to be if you box him?

Because sometimes when you A guy like, if you watch today's boxing, judges give the fight to mostly the guys that's coming forward. So if I went in there and bagging up and moving around the ring while he was more active, it probably would have looked as though he's winning the fight. So I had to make sure the judges know who's winning. So I had to take some in order to give some in that fight.

That was a very unusual fight for you. I saw an interview with you after that I'd be like, I'm not fighting like that again. Fuck that.

Yeah, because I see the modern day, the old school boxes and the punishment that they take in. You'll see them today. They can't really talk. As well as the Andre Wars and the Floyd, maybe, who can talk good and still articulate things to their grandparents, to their grandchildren, to their children. For me, personally, it's like I want to make sure that I'm able to really speak well to my kids and my grandkids and all of that. So taking punishment ain't for me. Yeah.

I support that 100 %, and I applaud fighters like you for setting an example for young fighters coming up. Defense and tactics and understanding the game is the most important thing. These guys that want to put on an entertaining fight and just go in there and slug it out. Man, you are giving up your brain for some people who don't give a fuck about you.

Oh, my God. That's the God's Honest truth right there. I be seeing a lot of fighters nowadays where they stand there like punching bags and let people hit on them. You'll see them after the fight, they're marked Picked up. In a few years, I don't think that they're going to be able to speak as well as somebody like me.

No, there's a bunch of examples of that. Obviously, we could all see it. But it's a complicated sport. And for people that don't understand the sport and don't appreciate the sport, they just see two dudes punching each other. But they don't see subtle movements. And you were doing this like half out jab and then popping them with it. And you could tell he had no idea it was coming. It was so frustrating for Tia Fimo. He was watching. I was like, there was a bunch of times where I was watching. I just was yelling out by myself in my house going, that check right hook. It was so pretty, man. You hit him with some pretty shots, but you were just tuning him up. It was a beautiful performance, man, because it was everything that I love in boxing. Skill, movement, understanding, ring IQ, knowing what's happening. And every Every time he would get fired up and try to take it to you, the most he could do is touch your body. That's all he was able to do.

Honestly, for me personally, I feel like I'm the best fighter in boxing, and I don't mean this in no disrespectful way because I got a lot of fighters in boxing that I still watch to this day that I like. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to steal this. Oosik, I love USIC. I love USIC. I love Bavaal, I love them Eastern European style. But for me, I just feel like I'm a fighter that could do it all. I can do it all. Whatever needs to be done to get the job done, I can do that. So some nights you might see, I might outbox people. Then some nights I might stand there and beat a guy up and beat them at their own game. So I think for me, I'm the most complete fighter in boxing.

Well, that mindset is what you need, especially in a sport where you've dominated divisions. So if you've dominated divisions and you're still looking to achieve a higher level, you can't just look at the guys that are your competitors. Because at 135, it was so hard for you to get fights. At 140 now, what are you going to do? You just do that to Tia Fimo, It scared a lot of people.

Yeah.

Nobody wants to look stupid. I mean, Tia Fimo has had some good fights in the past, and he's lost in the past, but he's never looked out of place. And he looked out of place in that fight.

It's crazy, though, because when I seen him When he fought in New York on the Times Square card, I'm like, Man, this dude is nice. I'm sitting there, I'm like, Whoa. I couldn't believe how good he was. But it just made me get up. I'm like, Okay, I want Yeah. I want to see what he can do with me. Because the way he made Arnold Barboza look in New York was like, he just made him look like he's not on his level.

Well, he wasn't on his level. But then Tia Fimo is not on your level. This is the beautiful thing about competitive sports, especially boxing. This one-on-one, which I think is the purest form of competition, boxing and MMA, is that you can show that as great as a fighter is, people could watch the Tia Fimo fight and have no idea how good he is. Yeah, for sure. And I would say, go watch the Go watch the Barboza fight. Go watch the Lomachenko fight. Go watch many of his fights. The guy was an excellent fighter. Still is an excellent fighter. But there are levels. Yes. And the mindset that you have, I am the best fighter in the world, period, is what allows you to beat guys like that, that and the hard work.

For sure. Like I said, I'm God-given, and I work super hard. I think the biggest thing that I don't get credit for is my discipline. I feel like I'm very disciplined when it comes down to making the sacrifices and making the life changes that I need to make in order to be 100% on fight night. I feel like a lot of people don't give me I mean, they don't know. They don't know. That's all it is. They just see it. I'll be seeing fans tweet and they'll be like, Oh, get off Twitter or get off social media. But I'll be on social media right after I just left the gym. I'm like, What's the problem? I'm just talking my talk on social media right now. Let me live.

This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform that helps you stand out online. And I can say that because my website is powered by Squarespace. Johrogan. Com com is a Squarespace website. Squarespace makes it easy to secure the best name for your business, and they provide privacy and security tools to ensure your domain remains protected. Head to squarespace. Com/rogan for a free file. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code, Rogan, to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Well, people are always looking to criticize, but there's no way you can have the performances that you're having.

And not be locked in.

It's not possible, especially over 12 rounds. Because you know better than anybody alive, the discipline that it takes to be in the condition that you have to be in to fight 12 hard rounds. They put on a virtuoso performance. It's like, It's crazy though.

Everybody like, you all love the performance because you all got to see it that day. But for me, when I'm in a gym, it's still levels that I feel like I haven't got to show to the world. I only really shown 70% of what I really could do. I feel like with that performance, it was just like, okay, this is like an okay day in the gym. Like an okay day. It ain't like my best day in the gym. I have days in the gym where I'm like, I don't know how I just did that, but I'm just on point. It was a good day, though.

The thing is you're getting better. Yeah, for sure. That's thing. It's like those days that you have in the gym and this performance and the mindset that you have is still not saying, I did it all. Not seeing, okay, virtuoso performance, still only 70 % of what you're capable of. That's what takes a guy From being a very good fighter to being an all-time great. And it's a matter of maintaining that over years and years and years that is so difficult for people. And discipline is where that comes in. Enthusiasm and motivation is great in the beginning. A lot of people have enthusiasm and motivation in the beginning, but it's when you've been a champ for five years, six years, the grind of it all, the 12-week training camp away from your family. People don't think about that.

Yeah, that's why I'm glad that I got all of the things that happened in my career where I had a little trials and tribulations happened early. So when I had my hand problem and I had a fight Where I didn't perform as well as I wanted to, it got me prepared for now. Now it's like, I'm 100% on top of my game. You're not going to be able to beat me without me being fully prepared. You're going to have to be a bad dude to come in the ring and beat me. Because I just don't see it happening with none of these guys.

Well, it's like how far you've gone, right? You started off at five and been intensely focused for all these years. How old are you now? 28. 28. 28, which is prime. That's it. 28 to 34 is the best year. But then again, you look at Terrence. I mean, he's at an age where a lot of people say it's over and he put on the performance of his career against Canelo.

I don't know how he do it. He's like a different human being.

He's so smart.

If I'm honest, he is the reason I'm not going to say he's the reason why I am who I am today, but he bought my game from where it was at to a very high level. And he don't even realize he done it. Me just being in a gym, able to watch him and pick up on the little things that he doing, his bad days, his good days. I'm seeing everything. When he comes out there on fight night, how prepared and how ready, how confident. Honestly, That dude, he put me into a whole different world now to where I'm like, Oh, I can meet anybody. I get in there with Terrence Garfield, and if I could spar with him, how are you going to hurt me? How? How are you going to beat me? I'm in the ring with the best fighter in the world.

One of the best of all time. You feel me? Yeah, one of the best of all and one of the most versatile of all time. Yes. Because that's a guy who switches up left, right.

There's nothing he can't do in a boxing Nothing.

Nothing he can't do. And the way he sets people up, we were talking during the podcast I did with him. He did this one sneaky thing where he was throwing a straight left and then Canelo would go to counter and he would hook it right off of the punch. On the extension, Canelo would lean back to counter and pop and catch him on the chin. You could see it. It's like, oh, my God, that's pretty.

I've never seen him throw that punch until Canelo, though. That's the crazy part.

Being in the gym with another guy who's an all time great pound for pound best. That is so valuable. And so many guys don't like that because they don't want to be the second best or they don't want to be in there with someone who's as good as them. You know what I mean? Iron sharpens iron. For sure. And for you to be a young guy, whoever guy who have a guy... Terrence is 10 years older than you. Have a guy who's further down the path and be able to see him and absorb all that. That's better than any coach of the world.

Yeah, but it's been going on for years. It ain't just a new thing. People don't understand. When I was 19 years old, I was around Terrence. I was at his house playing him in 2K. We'd go to the gym, argue. He's really one of the most competitive persons I ever met in my entire life.

You have to be.

I just never... For me, I just know for a fact my game has up Because of that dude.

Yeah, it has to. It's also you're seeing this level that is so high in boxing. You can compare it. You could go back and look at Sugar Ray Leonard. You can look at Pernell Whitaker. You look at all these guys, and you can compare Terrence to the people that the pundits sit down and say all-time greats. Terrance is unquestionably an all-time great.

He might even be better than them.

He might be.

He might be. I all due respect to the legends.

I agree with you.

He is that He's that good.

He's that good. I feel like there's a thing that was happening before the Canelo fight where a lot of people were dismissing his previous opponents and saying he never beat anybody and Canelo is another level. I know a lot of people bet a lot of money on Canelo. I was like, That's not a good bet.

It seemed like that's the thing in boxing, to where it's like, if they don't know the opponents, if you're not fighting somebody that's a bigger name, they makes it seem like the opponents is not good. Exactly. And that's not true. Because at the end of the day, it's low-level opponents that don't get the type of shine that the high-level opponents get, but they will beat the high-level opponent. And are they really high-level opponents at this point? I don't know.

Well, there's high level, and then there's the elite of the elite, right? Yeah, for sure. There's always that. There's some guys that if they're in... I always said that about Roy Jones during his prime. Everybody said, Roy Jones didn't find anybody. Not true. Roy Jones just made everybody look like they weren't anybody. Yeah, for sure. Because he was so elite. And that's the problem that Terrence was facing up until the Canelo fight. Because when a guy goes up two weight classes all the way up to '68- He's crazy. Right. Starts his career at 35. He's crazy. Last fight, he fights at '68 and then puts on a virtuoso performance. Virtual shutout. Maybe Canela won one round. Then everybody has to shut the fuck up.

Yeah, he shut everybody up because you had to see, he used to say that he wouldn't fight Canela. He used to be like, Oh, Canela's too big. I wouldn't fight him. Then out of nowhere, he had a change in mind. And he just went and attacked the situation. It was a bad situation to be in. You're going to go fight somebody two-way classes higher, punch hard, bigger than you. You're going to go do that? So for me, he just... Dude is amazing.

He's amazing. And another amazing example for young fighters. Incredibly disciplined, never out of shape, and has all his faculties- Don't smoke, don't drink. Doesn't do anything. All his faculties intact, and he's leaving the game with 100 %. No undefeated record, no questions asked, fought everybody. There's no one lining up to fight him right He's older and he did it all and he came out unscathed. Bye-bye.

That's my biggest goal. It's a perfect goal. My biggest goal is to lead boxing. And when I lead boxing, be Good enough. Well, not good enough. Great enough financially to where I don't ever have to get back in the boxing ring. I don't want to be one of them fighters that's need boxing. I hate that. That's my biggest pet pee. As long as I'm having fun with boxing, I want to be doing it. But once it's not fun no more, I don't want to have to, Oh, we got this $20 million payday. I need it. I don't want to feel that way.

Like Floyd? Yeah. Like the situation That's what I'm getting at. I'm getting at Floyd's in right now. This is crazy. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine right now, and he's like, Why is Floyd fighting again? I go, Because he needs money. He was like, What? How? Floyd made more money than anybody ever. It's like, Yeah, but he spent more money than everybody ever.

Yeah, I try to stay out of that because I don't know the real situation with Floyd because I'm not really in tune on it. But the only thing with Floyd is weird to me is he love boxing so much. You got to actually be around him. He want to be in the gym. So it'd be hard for me to just believe, okay, he's just dead broke. I don't know. It's hard to believe that.

Well, if he's not dead broke, He's definitely got issues, right? So he's got a bunch of lawsuits where he owe his money. Logan Paul says he owe him money. He owe him money for some other things. I don't know. I'm with you. I don't know. But it's also, it's like, I like a guy like Andre Ward. I like a guy who goes out on top. And they offered Andre a ton of money to come back and fight Canelo after Canelo beat Kovalev. And he was like, You know what? I think I serve boxing better as a commentator and a spokesperson for the sport. I made plenty of I'm undefeated. Two division world champion, Olympic gold medalist. Bye-bye. That's it. All faculties intact, no worries about his brain health and everything like that. That's the way to go out.

Andre Ward is another dude who helped my career. Yeah? He helped my career a lot, too. If I need something, right? Let's say I need something, then I need to figure out how to do it or what to do in a situation with weight or whatever Whatever it is when it comes to boxing. If I'm calling Andre Ward, he going to give you the best explanation. Out of all the guys, he explains things from detail. He going to detail in and make me really understand what I got to do. Andre Ward is somebody who I looked up to since a kid, so he's another guy. I just wasn't around him enough in the gym as I wasn't around Bud. But Andre Ward was my favorite fighter as an amateur. Oh, really? Yes.

Well, most people don't know that Andre Ward fought most of his career with one arm. Which is crazy.

That one arm is his best arm. He's left-handed for it for real.

But it's still crazy. It is. It's still crazy Because you think about all the guys he beat, and he beat them with a left hand. And then finally got shoulder surgery and then had a right-hand. It still fucked up. It's not 100 %.

You know the misconception about his career? I feel like When he beat Kovalev, people don't realize how good Kovalev was.

Oh, he was good in the day.

He was insanely power, boxing, length. He had everything, a great jab, a great right-hand. And for Andre Ward to go beat that dude, that put the stamp on his career.

And got dropped. Yes. Got dropped and hurt and recovered and still won. That was big. People see Kovalev when he lost to Kinello. He was already washed. He was done. Yeah, he was already washed. He had been drinking a lot. A lot of these fighters, they get to... Like we're saying, it's sustaining that will, that drive, that discipline, that focus. It's Hard to do. But if you go back when he had it, man, when he was in his prime and he was a world champion, he was fucking everybody up, man. He was a killer. And he was scary.

Yeah, he was a killer.

Scary right-hand.

It was a piston. I'll go back and watch him, too. He's another guy that I'll I go back and watch. I like the way he keep his distance. He keep his distance really good. He got that Eastern European. Like, those guys are really good boxers. When I watch them, I'm like, okay, I love watching Bivol.

Bivol is amazing. I love it. He's got such an amazing style. I mean, him, Usik, Lomachenko is a... That's a fight I really wish would have happened between you and him, man. Was there ever a talk about that?

I messed myself up. I did this to myself, so I I understand why a lot of fighters wouldn't fight me. A lot of fighters wouldn't fight me because I sparred them. I messed myself up. When I was trying to spar him at that time, I never thought it would be a day of me and him fighting. I didn't think that far down the line. I really was just thinking he was the best fighter in boxing, number one pound for pound. I want to be able to go get in the ring with him and see how I can do. They told me they wasn't even going pay me for the sparring. I'm like, okay, I'm cool. I don't want to get paid. I'm just here to get in the ring with Lomachev. But years later, yeah, the fight- How did that go? How the sparring went? I think, see, I don't diss nobody in a sparring, so I can't say that.

We don't have to diss him.

I'll keep it real with the sparring. I felt like I was out boxing him, but I also knew the level he was One was his conditioning. And that's when it made me like, okay, I got to be in tip top conditioning because the first day we sparred, we did six rounds. I felt like it was like, okay, I got to box him. The next time we sparred, he made me do 12 straight. Really? Yeah. So he made me do 12 straight. For the first eight, I'm good. I'm good for eight. But the last four rounds, I want to say, he started picking up the pace and he didn't get off on me. But he got the better of the last four rounds.

And you feel like it was because of fatigue a little bit.

Yeah, it was for sure because of fatigue. But it wasn't like the skills. Skillfully, I felt like I was the better fighter. I felt like my range and my distance and my speed was better than his. But from a standpoint of being in shape and throwing more punches, I felt like he was... But he was getting ready for his fight. I was getting ready for my fight, too.

Well, that's a very valuable learning experience, right? Yeah. You mean better to learn it then than to learn it in a fight? Yeah.

But for real, it messed me up because now it's like, If I'm Lomachev and I know he was what, 126 pounds at the time, he was a kid. Now I see him all grown up, he bigger, stronger. And I seen what he was doing as a kid, I'll probably be like, why would I test the water with him. I wouldn't really want to see that guy. That's not the guy I ever want to see.

That's funny. So you think that those sparring matches were the reason why you never got to fight with him?

Yeah, for sure. I was surprised Teo fought me. Honestly, I was very surprised.

Did you spar him as well? Yeah.

But when we spar, we only did three rounds. But he made it seem like he got off on me. But honestly, I felt like I was the best fighter.

Well, Teo is a very headstrong guy. Yeah. He's tough. Very tough, very confident guy. I mean, look, when he beat Lomachenko, that was a standout performance. He had that piston jab, man.

He was sharp. He was sharp in that fight. I watched that fight a thousand times before my fight.

Well, I just think he knew that Lomachenko was a ghost who's so hard to hit, and just he came out explosive.

He looked so good in that fight. Yeah, I just think Lomachenko had a speed to get his respect. I feel like Teo was faster, and he knew from a speed standpoint, he was going to use it to his advantage.

Also, Teo was a lot bigger, and he was dangerous. He was throwing danger with every punch. Even that jab had danger behind it.

It was crazy. I felt like he was strong when I was fighting him. Oh, he's strong as fuck, man. Everybody think that he wasn't, but I'm like, Man, I ain't going to lie. It was some shots, I would catch on the glove, and I'd be like, I don't know what you doing in your training, bro. But I'm solid.

But look at the size of that motherfucker. I mean, he's jacked. He looks great. He's ripped.

Yeah.

But he's not done. And a fight like that with you is a wake-up call for a guy like him, too.

I was like, Man, I I got to tighten some shit. It's 50/50 though. It's 50/50 because sometimes they can play with your mental. So some guys don't be the same after getting embarrassed in front of the world like that.

Well, he's come back before, like the Kombosas fight. Kombosas dropped him early, and that was That was a crazy upset.

Yeah, but it was different because in this instance, he got really embarrassed. With Kombosas, it was like 50/50. He felt like he won the fight. He left feeling that way.

But getting dropped by Kambosis. Nobody saw that coming.

No, I didn't see that coming either. I ain't going to lie.

I think it was like second round, too, right?

It was the first round, but T. O. Was fighting dumb. I never seen T. O. Even fight like that either. He went in there just trying to knock him out from the first round.

I think after the Lomachenko fight, he felt like this dude is not on my level. I'm the best fighter in the world. That can fuck with your head, too. Overconfidence can fuck with your head.

I'll be trying to stay away from that because I'm very confident in myself. So I be scared of being too confident. So I'll be trying to make guys bigger in my brain. Like, oh, this guy, he's the truth. That's smart. Yeah, I got to. I don't have no choice because I'm very confident.

We've all seen fighters that go in unprepared and think that a fighter is not on their level. And then that guy puts a- Knock them out. Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson. Perfect example. 42 to 1 underdog. And it was a perfect storm because Buster's mama just died. And Buster was always one of those guys that was known to be super talented in the gym. Super talented, but not dedicated, just not driven, just didn't make the most of his talent. But for that one fight, he was like, I'm fighting Mike Tyson. I'm not scared of him. My mom is dead. I'm putting in the fucking work. And he came out throwing that jab with the hook off the jab. Pop, wap, pop, wap. And it was a totally different Buster Douglas. Like, the best Buster Douglas we've ever seen ever. That final combination when he knocked Mike Tyson out. Dude, I didn't even watch that fight live. A friend of mine told me about it. I was like, Are you fucking serious? He told me at the gas station. He's like, Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson. I was like, What the fuck are you talking about?

And then I went home and watched it. And even while I knew that Buster Douglas had won, I expected Mike Tyson to get up and kill him. I was like, I can't believe this is happening.

Yeah, for sure.

That's how much of an upset that was.

Yeah, that was definitely one of the biggest upset. I think... I don't know because I wasn't during that time, but from what I've seen, it just looked like Mike didn't expect him to be that good. It was a shocker.

I think it was a shocker for everybody. Yeah. Well, that's- But that's boxing.

That's what could happen in this world. I've seen that happen plenty of times. Honestly, it be some guys that I see in a gym that I'm like, Bro, if you do that stuff on fight night, bro, you'll probably be champion of the world. I guess a lot of gym fighters who really got talent, but when the bright lights come on, a lot of fighters be different.

And what do you think that is?

I think it's pressure. I think it's nerves. I think it's a lot. It's a lot because I know I felt it. I felt it for my fight with Teo. I felt pressure. I felt all of that stuff. But I'm too tough I know my mental ain't going. It's me or that person at the end of the day. My life or your life, I'm going to choose my life when it comes down to it. I was good, but I know it's a lot of fighters that I see in the gym and I'm Man, I don't understand how you don't perform like this under the lights.

There's always guys like that. There's always guys that are potential world champions in the gym. And some people bank on them and you go, This guy just needs a mental coach, needs something to get him over that hump. But it's always interesting to me because what is the difference between a guy who could just walk out there on fight day and perform at 100% of his ability versus a guy who gets dwarfed by the moment. The moment comes, the big pressure. Mental.

It's all mental. It's all in your head. What you're thinking and what you believe in and the things that's going on in your brain is what's going to come out. I'm already telling myself. Like I said, I tell myself it's either me or whom. So my life or your life. And one of us got to go. One of us got to go.

But what do you think is going on? I mean, everybody experiences pressure. Everybody experiences nerves. But what is it about fighters that are so talented that let them overcome them versus fighters? Oftentimes, they're maybe not even as talented, but they rise to the occasion when those lights are on. When those lights are on, there are fighters that fight better. Sometimes they look shit in the gym. And then when those bright lights are on- I don't have moments like that.

I don't have moments where I'm like, Man, I felt bad in the gym. I don't know what. I had this camp. This was a horrible And then fight night coming, I'm like, on point.

Well, that's what they said about Ali when he fought George Foreman. They said he looked terrible in the gym and everybody was nervous about him, but he had a strategy.

I think with some fighters, it's fear. I think it's fear of losing or fear of the negative happening. And I think with some fighters, they allow fear to control them. As in some other fighters who, if I get fearful, I'm going to attack my fear. I'm not scared to even go and give it a try. Whatever happened is going to happen at the end of the day. It's all written already.

Is this something that you built up over time? Or is it something someone imparted on you when you were young and you embraced it? How did you learn to have that champion mindset?

I think it's wild to say, but I think it's really my little brothers and my little sisters, but really my little brothers. I used to go to amateur tournaments, and if I lose and I got to come home to my little brothers, oh, they on me. They on me. And it's like, you got to come home and they remember the name of the opponent that beat you when they would throw it in your face. Oh, don't make me go get Joseph Adorno. That's a real guy that beat me back in the day. Shout out to Joseph Adorno. But I used to have to hear that in the house, and now I still be with them. So it's like, I know I got to go home to my little brothers and see them after these fights. And I had that in the back of my head. I'm not coming home to them.

That's crazy.

Without to win. They got us no.

Did you tell your little brothers that they do that for you?

No, I don't even think I ever said it to them. It just was so natural because I used to always get in fights with them and they used to always bring up an opponent that beat me. And I'm like, now if I beat everybody, they can't say it no more.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Well, because different fighters develop different ways of rising to the occasion, different ways of maintaining a championship's mindset. And some of them, they learn it from their coach, Customado, famously trained Tyson, and even hypnotized him and told him that you don't exist. Only the task exists. And he had Mike Tyson just like a fucking machine when he would get into that ring.

I think, shout out to my grandfather, too, because my grandfather is my coach. And his energy during fight week, they don't even realize it wasn't even just the coaching that he was doing. It's like the energy that he gave off to me. It reminded me of me when I was a kid and me and him would go to amateur tournaments. And he just so amped up and ready. And it brought on to me and it got me amped up as him. Okay, I got I got to stand on business for my grandfather. I got to. I don't got no choice.

Oh, wow.

That's awesome. But he's definitely a great coach.

So family is a big thing for you?

Yeah, family is everything for me. I enjoy spending time with my family. I'm not like a lot of these boxers. With all due respect to them, they like the Fame, all that stuff, the cars. I'm more so like, I get a big check, I want to go I go on vacay with my family or go chill with my family. I don't like doing stuff. I enjoy spending time with my daughter.

That's great.

I'm different. I'm not like them guys.

That's so smart. It's so smart because all that other shit just drains your bank account, distracts you from your goals, gets in the way of things.

It's like when I was a kid, I used to want the fame. I used to be like, I want to be famous. I want everybody to know me. But once Once you get it, it's like, I don't like this. I don't like this. You go places, people pulling their phones out. It's weird, right? They're trying to record you. Bro, I'm just a regular person. That's how I feel. Everybody bleeds. We all the same. We all human. I move with that thought process, and I feel like a lot of people don't move with that, especially people in my position.

Yeah, you can get inflated. Your head can get screwy. It's like you got to balance two things at the same time. One, you are the elite of the elite. You are a world champion and one of the pound for pound best to ever do it. And then on top of that, you're just a human being. Yes. And we're all just human beings. But what we like, what people love about watching Championship caliber fighters and Championship performances in any sport is watching just a regular human do something extraordinary. Yes. And that gives us inspiration. When I watch a great fight, I feel better for the rest of the day. When I go to bed, I feel great. I watched that fight, I went to bed. I was like, whew. I felt great. I text Josh right after it was happening. And That's how we got in touch. Josh Dubin. Shout out to Josh. But I remember, I texted him. I'm like, Dude, that was extraordinary. And then next thing you know, we're on the phone.

Definitely was a great night. Great night of boxing. I enjoyed it. I'm just glad to be here. All glory to God. I'm glad to be here. I've been here. I got been here. I've been telling people I'm the best. I'm better than these guys.

You have, but you needed that breakout. You needed that breakout performance. And the problem is everybody knew you were so good. It was hard to get someone to sign up for that breakout performance. Because for a breakout performance, you need another dude who's had breakout performances that everybody respects and knows, like Tia Fimo.

Yeah, That was my main reason of fighting. I'm telling you, I watched them in Times Square. I looked, I said, We fight him. We fight him. I want to fight him. He looked really good. He looked really good.

That Times Square card was weird.

He was the best fighter on the card.

A hundred %. No question. It looked like everybody was playing it safe on that card.

Yeah, it did.

Like, Devin Haney. The Devin Haney fight was odd.

What I learned from that card, I felt like, I felt like them fighters didn't have enough adrenaline pumping. I feel like Ryan, I know when he got in the ring, his adrenaline couldn't been too high because it was like sparring. It was like not a lot of people there. It wasn't that much pressure. You could hear everything somebody is saying. I know Ryan heard me all night. He had to hear me. I was cheering him on, telling him, Man, throw the hook, throw the hook, throw the hook.

That was when he fought Roley, right? Yeah. That was a wake-up call, too. That was another fight where people did not expect Roley to beat Ryan.

Yeah, I'd be throwing off. I didn't expect it either. That was one of the fights where I vouched for Ryan. I'm like, Man, he got skills. He's a skillful fighter. Then he got in there. I don't know what he was doing. I didn't understand what was happening.

It's one of them things where he has the fight with Devon. He beats Devon, gets popped for whatever he was on, Osterine, And then he's got a long time off. There's a lot of people mad at him. There's a lot of people... Which is such an unfortunate thing if you think about his performance against Devon, because that was incredible.

Yeah, but the problem is he got caught. He got caught. Yeah. So I don't know. For me personally, if you got caught, it's like, I can't really... Me, I can't give you the credit for that. I don't give him credit for that night with Devon.

Yeah, but steroids don't help you lay on punches. I get you. They help you recover in training. They help you train a little harder. They might give you a little bit more power, but that left hook was on point.

Yeah, but that little bit of more power probably wasn't enough to hurt Devon. Because if you really watch the fight and pay attention to the fight, and people might not agree with me on this, but I feel like Devon was winning the moments that was quiet. When people's not really... Devin is winning most of the boxing match, but the moments where Ryan was so loud and everybody got to see him get hurt and knocked down to where I just feel like Devon, if he didn't get dropped by them punches, he could have win that fight.

But he did get dropped. That's the problem. And also, I think- But what if the Oster ring was helping his power? I mean, was Who was his last fight against? Delgado? Who was his last opponent? Who? Ryan.

Who was the guy who just beat? Mario Barrios. Barrios.

That's right. Barrios is a guy that was tailor-made for a guy like Ryan. He's a tough dude. He's very durable, takes a good shot, but he's not that fast. He's not, yeah. And Ryan was super fast in that fight. Yeah. Ryan looked good. He looked real good.

Yeah, he looked good. He looked good. He looked good. He looked good. He looked good in that fight. And it wasn't just like Because people think when I'm saying, Oh, well, you don't know whether he's cheating or not. I'm not saying that in the aspect of his boxing skills. He clearly got boxing skills. You can clearly see Ryan know how to move his feet, you know how to keep his distance, use his long length. He can clearly box. I've been saying this for years.

Yeah, he boxes very well. And also, he showed that he has a right-hand, too.

Yeah, that was surprising. Yeah. And he He used it the whole night. He just kept throwing it. So that was very surprising.

But I mean, of course, if you want to be a complete fighter, he had to develop a right-hand and start using it more because that left hook is just world-class.

Yeah. And he was not only throwing it straight, he was throwing it around the guard. That was beautiful. It was beautiful.

Yeah, it was nice. That was a beautiful performance for him. Has there been any talk about you two matching up?

Yeah, it has. But like I said, everything got to make sense. People don't understand that I walk around in my 40s. So if I'm walking around in my 40s, I don't think me going to 147... When I fight at 147, I think that would be my last weight class in my career. I don't see myself going past 147 ever. But I'm 28 right now. I got a long way to go. So I don't plan on moving to 47 no time soon. So if the fight happens at whatever weight class that I say, then I'm cool with it.

Can he make 40 again?

He said he could. He the one who came out and said, let's fight at 140. He said that. So if he said that, it's like, okay, you could make the weight, then let's do it.

What weight was the Gervante fight? Was that 140?

That fight was at 136.

That's right. And then he gave him a rehydration clause, too.

Yeah, 10 pounds. Very smart.

Very smart. Very smart, right?

I mean, yeah. It was in that situation, but I mean, I just felt like with the rehydration clause at that time, when you're already bringing somebody down to a weight class that they haven't fought in years, it's like you could have not put the rehydration clause. It wasn't necessary at that point in time.

I think it was necessary. I think it helped a lot. It did. It helped a lot. If you can only rehydrate 10 pounds and you know he's way bigger than that. Ryan's a big guy.

He looked weak on fight night. He looked extremely weak. He didn't look the same.

But I guess those dollars, that paycheck was just too tempting.

I never understood that move. I never understood it. Because if I'm Ryan Garcia and I got a big name in the sport and all of that stuff, why would I accept every Everything into somebody else's favor?

I think because that's the only way he could get the fight. Well, this is the same thing when Canelo fought Floyd. Floyd made him go down to 152.

Remember? But it was no rehydration clause.

Was it?

No.

Even if there's not- Floyd didn't have a rehydration clause.

Nobody.

Well, that's good. But if you make a guy get down to 152, even if you give him a rehydration clause, that's going to drain something out of your tank.

But is it right? Because my question is, wasn't they fighting at 154? Wasn't Canelo fighting at 154?

Normally, yeah. But it was a struggle.

So he only came down two pounds.

But you know that last... You're not a big weight cutter, but if you were, that last two pounds is death. Oh, for sure. When you're already drained out because he was a big guy for 154. And to drain out and get all the way down to 152, that had to be hard. He didn't look the same on fight day. You don't think so? Well, I think Floyd was just a virtuoso that night. I mean, Floyd I don't think- Floyd looks so good that night.

That night, I don't think if he was 154, 160, I don't think he was beating Floyd.

I think you're probably right. But I also think Floyd was smart to get him down to 152.

For sure, the business. Yeah.

It's like every angle you can get, every advantage you can get is a good one. I do agree with you about the rehydration clause. Get out of here with that.

But we got to understand, too, right? Because I get Floyd in that instinct. If a guy is going to blow up to, let's say, what? We'll just do me and Ryan García, for example. Okay. I'm going to blow up 148. He's going to blow up 168 to 170. Now it's like you're in a ring with somebody that is like 20 pounds bigger than you. And Floyd still allowed Canelo to get big because he got big at the getting down to 152. So it's like, I feel it in a way. I understand it. Now, the rehydration clause is crazy, but I will only do a rehydration clause for fighters if I go up to 147 pounds because I'm not a 147 pounder. So why would I fight at their weight class where they're comfortable? Just make it easy for them.

Well, the thing about a fighter like you is it's just difficult to find big names. I mean, if Gervante fights again, that's a big fight, but that would probably be at 135, which you could probably still make easy, right?

Easy.

No problem. So you have fights at 135 and fights at 140, but it's just going to be hard to get someone to step up. That is going to be that big pay-per-view selling fight.

Yeah.

That's the problem.

That is the problem.

You're too good. That's the problem. You're too good.

Somebody told me that before I went pro before. They was like, You're going to have a hard time in the pros. I'm telling you.

Yeah.

But I understand it now.

Do you remember your first pro fight? You remember what it felt like?

It felt like a whole new experience. Really? Yeah. How so? When I was in the Amateurs, guys wasn't as like Dirty as the professional is like, you don't get introduced into dirty boxing until you turn professional.

Didn't you get headbutted in your first fight?

I got headbutt. He headbutted me. And that's what- On purpose, right? Yes.

Not an accidental headbutt.

That's what makes me say, okay, I understand this is a whole different atmosphere. It's not the same amateur in the pros. And a lot of guys from the amateurs don't adjust to the pros as well as I did.

Well, it's all about styles, right? There's some guys who have styles that are just much better for point fighting and fighting the amateurs.

No, it's actually you got to develop a lot of things like punch placement. Punch Watching hard is really a real thing in a pros. You got to have something to make somebody respect you. That's why when I hear people say, I got pillow hands, I'm like, you all clearly must not be watching.

Who's saying that?

It be a lot of people. They say I got pillow hands.

No, you just fight smart.

Yeah, I don't understand it because it's like if I had pillow hands, right? Why guys don't just go in there and just knock me out? If I'm fighting somebody with pillow hands, I'm just going to put my shield up and just swing for the fences because they can't hurt me. I don't understand why nobody won't do that if I got pillow hands.

You don't have pillow hands. It's nonsense talk. What you have is a boxing intelligence where you know when to hit full blast and when to just touch them up and crack them a little bit. And the accumulation of blows, the frustration, the mental confusion that a fighter gets when they can't hit you and you can hit them. And then you start ramping it up and then you start tuning them up. The people that are saying that just don't understand what you're doing. Yeah, for sure. What you're doing is just perfect. You're fighting intelligent. And that's what I love. I love watching a guy outbox the fuck out of somebody. I love it. Like I said, you were doing this half speed jab and then from right there, pop. And you could tell Teo was like, Jesus Christ. You could tell he was confused. It was so fast.

Too fast.

It was so fast. But that accumulation of blows over time. And his corner, it was crazy. Did you listen to the fight? Did you go back and watch it?

Yeah, I went back and watched it.

His corner is like, You got to hit him.

Like, what? It's so crazy, though, because What I see with his corner is he been doing this. His dad been getting in the ring and giving him them type of instructions. But Tío has been always so good to where the instructions he's giving him really does not matter because he's in control. He's winning these fights. He's doing what he's supposed to do. But that night, he did need...

He needed a real coach.

He needed something better than that.

Yeah. Well, not that his dad's not a real coach, but he needed some tactical advice. He needed some instruction on what this guy's doing to you, and you got to switch it up entirely. You got to do something that confuses him.

His dad is used to something different. That's why he went in there and said, Where's your power, bro? He's used to Teo's power showing up and the amazing things that TEO does in the boxing ring. He's used to that. But whenever you're going against somebody who's on a different level, also, you got to be He was really well-prepared within a game plan, all that stuff. And I didn't see no game plan.

Did you know anybody that was in his camp or ask anybody after the fight? What was his game plan? What did he think was going to be different?

No, I didn't, actually. I'd be interested to know that. Yeah, I do, too. But I did run into him after the fight. I ran into Teo in the back. Was he cool? Yeah, he was cool. It was actually a good conversation. I felt bad that he was by himself. His manager I just clinked it up. But during the moment that I see him in the back, he was by himself. So I didn't like that. Oh, man. I didn't like that.

No, that's a bummer.

Yeah. But I mean, they said they was with him all night, so respect to them.

So maybe you just caught him in a moment when he was alone. Bad moment, yeah. Yeah. That's the last thing you want to see is a dude who gets abandoned after a loss. Like, oh, my God. And then you got to go back to camp with those assholes?

I don't even like how the sport is treating him now. Everybody acts like he's just He's a terrible fighter.

Oh, that's crazy.

I don't understand it when you got to give him respect. This dude actually stepped up and fought a guy that nobody else wants to fight. Exactly. So he did it. He got in the ring and laid it on the line. It didn't go his way, but he tried.

The thing is, I don't know if that guy is ever going to separate from his father. I don't know if that guy ever is going to bring in another world-class trainer that maybe would be able to recognize some things that he's doing that he can prove upon.

You know what's so crazy? During the fight, he had a coach in his corner, and I know the coach, he's from Florida, I want to say. His coach was telling him some good advice. I don't think he heard him or was listening to him, but he was telling him some good advice. Really? Yeah. I don't want to say what the advice is because I got future opponents. I got to make sure.

Well, someone could go back and listen.

Yeah. I can't tell what the advice was, but he was giving him some good advice.

Interesting. Yeah, it's hard. Those father-son teams, there's always a lot of conflict with those.

Yeah, because I done watched it over the years. I feel like dads stay on top of the fighter and they make it less fun. And I feel like that's why I think my granddad is one of the best coaches because he allowed me to love the sport of boxing myself. When I had my football games and my pop one of the games, he came to my game, watched them, cheered, don't know what supported me. But as soon as I lost, I'm on the field crying. I'm like, he comes up to me, he say, In boxing, you only could lose because of yourself. And I'm looking, I'm like, What do you mean, bro? I'm like, Oh, that is true because you're the one in a boxing ring doing the boxing. When I lost that football game, he was basically trying to say it was my coach's fault. So he just allowed me to choose boxing though. He always supported me when I did other things, but he ain't just stay on top of me, hound me with it. He just took me to the gym.

Well, you got to let a young man become his own man.

Yeah. He allowed me to choose it. I think fathers in the sport don't allow their sons to choose it, too. Like they're choosing it for them. Right.

And a lot of them are overbearing in the corner. It becomes a problem.

Coaches should listen to what I'm about to say. They're father coaches. There has to be a difference between a father and a coach. So when you're coaching your son, you have to be a coach in the boxing ring instead of the father. Because When you're the father, they're going to reciprocate things wrong. And I feel like with coaches, when you're coaching, they can hear you a lot better.

Yeah. Well, there's also the relationship with the father and the son where the father wants the son to listen to him. Listen to me. I'm your father. You go out, you're going to do this. Fuck off of me. Fuck off of me, dad.

You doing more harm to your son than actually doing good for him.

Well, especially not giving him technical advice. That is where he needed real technical advice because there was a lot of shit you were doing that he just did not have an answer for. He didn't understand.

Yeah. He didn't understand. He didn't clean up his bad habits. That's the thing with these fighters. A lot of them got bad habits and things that they do, and I'm going to expose it.

Well, I mean, the environment that you came up in and having a guy like Terrence and having other elite fighters that you train with all the time, that's so important. It's so invaluable because Because all that shit gets exposed in the gym.

It does. That's where you work on it at. If you ain't worked on it in the gym on fight night, it's going to be exposed.

There's no ifs, or, buts about it. How important do you think a amateur career is? Do you think a guy like Lomachenko maybe would have been an even better boxer if he didn't have so many amateur fights and went into the pros at an earlier age?

I think an amateur career That is important because you got to have an experience. But I don't see different to where guys have developed a lot more in the gym. I done seen guys stay in the gym, not go to tournaments, and they'll get better and better. And then out of nowhere, they'll go to one tournament and then you'll be like, Who the fuck is this guy? Where did he come from? How did he get so good? I think developing in the gym is the biggest thing. Who are you sparring? Who you training with, all of that stuff really matters the most. The amateur experience is cool. Like, oh, Lomacheko. But if Lomachev had different things around him in a gym, I feel like he probably would have been a better fighter.

He was already good. With Lomacheko, So it's so crazy because he really should have been fighting at 126. I mean, he really was never a 140 pound fighter. He's a small guy.

Yeah, I don't understand that. I didn't understand that because I think it tarnished his career in a way to where the way people look at him. People don't look at him the same as they should because he was really, really good, but he was at a weight class that he really wasn't supposed to be at. So of course, you're going to have a harder time with them bigger guys.

Right. Like Teo. Yeah, like Teo. Yeah, that was a perfect example. Teo was huge in that fight. He looked so much bigger than Lomachev and just so dangerous that it fucked Lomachev's strategy up. Because you got missiles coming at you from a giant dude. I mean, Tío is stacked. And so you got to think for those guys, I guess it's just about chasing the multiple world titles and the bigger money at the higher weight classes.

Yeah, that's what with Lomachev, though. He act like he wasn't really super money hungry, so I never really understood. It seemed like he was maybe, yeah, you're right. He was chasing undisputed.

Yeah, undisputed in world titles. I feel like he got robbed in the Devin Hane fight, though. Do you think that?

To this day, I do think I scored the fight for Lomacheinko.

Yeah, I did, too. I watched it three times in a row because I was like, What am I getting wrong here? Am I getting this wrong before I started talking about it? And I was like, No, no, Lomacheinko should have won.

Yeah, I thought Lomachev won.

That was one of those where I was like, oh. And I think that fight fucked with Devin Haney's head a little bit. That makes you feel like shit. When you win a fight and everybody thinks that you lost the fight, then you have to carry that around with you everywhere. They're like, Loacheco beat you. You're like, no, he didn't.

Yeah, it's a mental battle. Fuck you. Yeah, it's a mental battle. It's a mental battle.

And then you got to get it back.

I think in that fight, he really wasn't even fighting the best version of Devin because Devin was fighting at a weight class he really shouldn't have been at.

What was that fight at? Was that fight at 35? 135. Yeah. And then Devon should have been at 140?

At that time, yeah, he should have been at 140. He was too big for 35.

It's interesting, man, that balance of we're all fucked up in MMA Because MMA, there's too few weight classes. And so there's giant gaps, huge gaps, like at 185 to 205, 155 to 170. There's no weight classes in between. I mean, that's nuts.

Yeah, that's insane. I agree. I mean, it's guys that's like little fighting bigger guys because it ain't enough weight classes for them to be in. So that sounds crazy.

It's stupid. It's the one major complaint that I've had with the UFC for A decade. I was like, we need way more weight classes. And they're like, No, we're going to keep it pure. These are the champs. It's only eight champs. Like, that's crazy.

I need to start watching the UFC.

Oh, it's fun. There's one this weekend in Vegas if you're around.

I'm going to watch some of it.

It's a good one.

I'm going to watch it because I'm lost. I'm not really in tune with a lot of the UFC guys. And the UFC people be mad at me when I say boxing is better, but it's my sport.

Of course, you're going to think it's better. It's what you're life is based around. For sure. Of course. And if you talk to Max Holloway, he's going to say MMA is better.

Exactly. And they got good explanations. I understand what they're saying. It's more like skills you got to learn in MMA, but For me, I just feel like boxing, the skill level and the talent for me, I like better.

Well, there is no question. The skill level and the talent when it comes to punching is way better in boxing. You see some sloppy shit that people do in MMA with boxing. But you also have to think they're thinking about takedowns. They're thinking about getting kicked. They're thinking about their calves getting kicked out from under them, their legs getting kicked, their body getting kicked.

So they're messing up their punching.

Everything. Knees, elbows. And And there's stuff that you do in boxing that you can't do in MMA because your legs exposed. There's certain positions that you would throw punches in that a guy would just calf kick you. And you get hit with one of those. You're like, oh, shit. And all of a sudden, your calf is numb and you're not moving good and your ankle doesn't work. It's terrible. But that's the beauty of that sport is that it's so diverse. But the beauty of boxing is that it's so concentrated on hand techniques that the boxing techniques in boxing are far superior than what you're going to see in MMA. You see a few guys in MMA that could make it as pro boxers, but you don't see your level.

They can't be elite level, basically.

No. There's no way you can.

Impossible. No. You haven't been doing it for long enough.

Just like you don't see these elite MMA fighters that could compete in jiu-jitsu tournaments and win world championships. It's very, very rare. The only way that happens is if they were a world champion in jiu-jitsu before they got into MMA and they still have those skills at a very, very high level, then some of those guys can compete in world-class levels.

What would you say is the best skill in the MMA? I knew it. I already knew it before I asked.

Because wrest can take everybody down. And if you get taken down, you're fucked.

I want to learn how to wrestle.

It's a great... Well, Terrence, show you how. Terrance is one of the only boxers that are like, If that guy fought in MMA, He could do very well. He would. He would do very well.

I watched him wrestle an actual USA team wrestler, and he was...

He could wrestle.

Yeah, he was good. He wasn't getting...

He's not lost. Yeah. He knows what he's doing. And look, his son just want a state title.

Yeah, for sure. He's the truth. I want to learn how to rest it on.

It's a good thing to know. It's a good thing because it's a humbling thing.

I feel like they're the strongest people. Oh, yeah. I feel like when they come to strength, real strength, their bodies are stronger than most.

Oh, it's a different thing. When they get a hold of you, you feel like a child. You just get rag dolled. You're like, This is embarrassing. That's the most important skill, I feel. But every fight starts standing up. Every round starts standing up. At the beginning of the round, you're standing up again. So that guy's got to take you down again. And in that transition- It's time to catch somebody. Yeah, that's when you can catch someone.

Yeah, I figured that.

Look, there's elite fighters that aren't great wrest in MMA, like Alex Pereira, who's a two division world champion, but he's just a destructive kickboxer. He's such a terrifying kickboxer.

What is John Jones?

John Jones is a wrestler. He a wrestler? Well, he's an everything fighter. He could do everything. But he started out his career as a boxer.

I like him.

Oh, he's the best ever. The best ever. He's the best ever because he's the smartest of all of them. I mean, that guy studies.

That's why I liked him. That's exactly what I like him. I've seen a video of him saying he watches everything from top to bottom. He's a bunch of interviews he going to watch your interviews. He's going to watch every single thing until he find a weakness. Oh, yeah. That's why I like him.

Yeah. He gets inside their head. He He knows every tendency they do. He sets traps. He does everything. It's funny. Daniel Cormier, who I love to death, is a great friend of mine. When he fought John Jones, they were talking before the fight about tendencies. And Daniel's like, Oh, I know what you think I'm going to do. You think I'm going to lean towards the right? You're going to kick me in the head. And John did exactly that in a fight. It was so crazy when he landed it. I love both of those guys, but Daniel is a close friend. And so we landed that head kick. I was like, no. And I'm doing commentary, so I've got to be balanced. And I do love both of those guys. But I was like, damn, he did exactly what he said he was going to do.

You said it on the commentary?

No, I didn't say it on the commentary. I don't want to call it out there. But in the pre-fight, they were talking shit to each other. And one of the things is like, you have some tendencies, Daniel, and I'm going to exploit those tendencies. And he was like, oh, you mean how I dip to the right?

And he did exactly that. He caught him with that kick.

I was like, no. But look, that's the goat. That's the guy, man. He's the guy. He's the guy who always figures out a way to win.

He figures it out. I heard it was somebody that he was supposed to fight, though, that wanted to fight him. It was like somebody really good.

Tom Aspenal? Yeah, that's what I heard. Well, see, the thing with that is John is at the stage of his career where he's like, I want to fight legends, and I want to fight fights that are big fights against big names that matter. Tom Aspenal carried a high risk. He wasn't a very well known fighter, even though he was the heavyweight champion. And he was really the heavyweight champion because John resigned the title. So he was the interim heavyweight champion. So they had an interim title. And John was the undisputed heavyweight champion, and they were supposed to fight, and they didn't make that happen. But now, after that fight, John is still trying to figure out if he's going to fight again. If he's going to fight again, maybe he will fight because there's a big White House card.

I heard about that.

Yeah. And the White House card is a big one. And if that happens, it won't be Aspinal, probably, because Aspinal just went through eye surgery. Two different eye surgeries. He got poked in the eyes in his fight.

Aren't you involved in the USA?

Yeah, I'm the commentator. I'm one of the commentators.

So are you going to be doing Zufa boxing, too?

No, no, no, no, no, They do a great job over there. I'll definitely watch some of those fights, though. I think it's interesting. I think it's good to have more organizations that are competing to get the fighters because then the fighters will get more money. Money, yes. And I think MMA could use that, too. Unfortunately, the UFC is the big name in MMA. And MMA, unlike boxing, is all about the UFC. In boxing, it's all about who's the champ. Nobody gives a shit if it's Golden Boy or Bob Aram Nobody gives a fuck who the promoter is. It's like, who is the fighter that's fighting? Is it Ggg versus Kennello? Who are the fighters? And unfortunately, with MMA, it's not that. It's like, if you are an excellent fighter, but you fight for the PFL, nobody knows. Nobody knows. There's a small audience of hardcore people that pay attention.

I've seen somebody fight for the PFL. Clarissa, huh?

Yeah, she fought for the PFL. She's crazy. That lady's She's the best. She's wild. She's the best. She's the best. She's the best.

There's nobody better.

I mean, she's the heavyweight champ now. It's crazy.

I just wish she was smaller. So some of the smaller girls who really think that they can be her. Can see like...

There's levels.

She's the goat.

She is the goat, but she's not getting... I mean, as much as the love that she does get, she's not getting what she deserves. And it's just because there's just not a lot of competition.

I don't understand it. I don't understand it. Two Olympic gold medals. I know. Undisputed several times in the sport. I just don't get it.

Well, it's just women's boxing does not have the same level of respect and appreciation that men's boxing does, unfortunately.

Well, Clarissa, I respect and appreciate you, and you are my goal.

Yeah, I do as well. I've had her on. She's awesome. I've had her on the podcast. I'm a big fan of her. And I'm just the only one that had the courage to fight in MMA. I mean, that was crazy.

She's tough. And she really did not bad, but she was fighting against lesser competition. But she definitely was like, you could tell she was.

She had to learn the grappling from a beginner's perspective.

She was breaking out of them like, Chilkos. She was getting angry.

It's crazy. She knows how to win, and sometimes that's enough. At that high level, as elite a level as she is. But I think she's rightly just concentrating on boxing because I think she realizes that to be a world champion in MMA, she'd have to abandon boxing.

Yeah, for sure.

And it would be a long- Process. Journey. And she'd probably have to absorb a couple more losses. It ain't really worth it. Fuck these girls up in boxing.

And I know she don't like losing.

No, not at all. No. She's a fun fighter to watch, though. If anybody can get people to pay attention to women's boxing, it's Claressa.

Yes, because She's exciting. I don't see... That's why I don't understand. I don't get it. She deserve all flowers. She's the truth. I've never seen nobody, no female as good as her ever in my life.

No, she's probably the greatest of all time. I think everybody would agree. You've had a few great fighters over the years that have been female fighters, but she's the real standout.

Yeah, no question.

It's just, unfortunately, that sport, there's not a lot a lot of women out there that want to get punched in the face. If you had a room full of a thousand women, there might be one or two like, I'll try that.

You know what I mean? No, I think it's some solid female fighters in the sport of boxing. Oh, there are. Oh, there are.

But not in comparison to the numbers in men. Men's boxing is just this... A lot of kids grow up, they want to be a boxer.

Yeah, for sure.

Not a lot of women are like, Let me put the doll down and fuck some check up. That's an unusual mindset. Yeah, it is. It's just... It is what it is. We're fortunate to be able to have her, though, because if there's anybody that's going to elevate the sport and bring in new fighters, it's going to be someone who is really the only person in the sport that gets a tremendous amount of attention as a woman.

Yeah, she done became a superstar. It's definitely interesting seeing her in the big arenas and having all the people walk out with her. It's amazing to see. So I'm enjoying her process and I'm glad that I'm here to witness it.

Yeah, me too. Yeah. I mean, but other than her, in the past, there haven't been enough women that have really... Christie Martin, Leila Ali, and there's a few that- I like Ann Wolf. Anne Wolf was a beast. She was one of the few that could flatline a check with one shot, too.

She was the truth.

Oh, yeah, man. She was the truth. And a great trainer, too. When she was training Kirkland? Yeah. Bro, they showed those videos of what she was putting him through. And when he fought Canelo, he didn't have her in his corner.

I was just about to say, the fights that he lost, he did not have her. Exactly. In the fights that he won.

She was a fucking general, dude. She was a general. She put him through some brutal shit. But those were the fights that he was ultra-prepared.

I think people don't realize. I feel like the best coaches in the sport of boxing are the people that box. I bet. Robert García. I think he's the truth as a coach.

Sure.

Bowman. Bowman, another fighter. Buddy McGirt.

Buddy McGirt. Yeah. Oh, he was a great fighter.

I just feel like the coaches that has been in there is they know.

Sure. Yeah. I think it helps a lot. There's a few guys, like Emmanuel Stewart. Did he have an amateur background?

I think so. I'm not sure. I think so, though.

I think Emmanuel just had a brilliant mind for the sport.

Yeah. I like the way he talked, too. I'll be watching some of his old videos. Yeah. It was something that I was doing for this fight, but I watched a video of him and he said, fighters overtrained. They're overtrained. And when I seen it, he started explaining the reasons why you know that they're overtrained. And then I seen it, I started cutting back on some of the things that I'm doing. I'm like, man, I don't want to overtrain. Don't come out at my best.

Amateur boxing career. He compiled a record of 94 wins, 3 losses in the amateur, including winning the 1963 National Golden Gloves tournament in the Bantamweight division. Wow, Bantamweight. That's crazy.

I mean, he was small.

That's crazy. But, man, what he did with a crunk gym. He also had this gym cranked up. He made it like 98 degrees in there all the time. So everybody was training in the heat. Yeah.

He had a lot of boxing boxers that was top-level boxers in there, so they were pushing each other to get better. That's the cheat code right there.

Oh, it is the cheat code, right? Iron sharpens iron. Yeah, you can't be the best boxer in your gym and have everybody else that's way below you and really get to that world-class level.

No. Impossible. It's impossible. You got to bring in guys that's on a high level. Honestly, for me, I keep the young kids that's up up and coming. My little cousin, he's a great boxer and he's up and coming. And I just was in the gym with him yesterday and play sparring with him. I keep a lot of good boxers around me, a lot of good boxers. There's another kid, Emmanuel Chance. He's 19 years old. They are so skillful right now to where when I'm around them, I'm still picking up things from them. They probably don't even know it, but I'm definitely... I got my notepad out everywhere I go.

That's so important, right?

It's so important. Mentally, it's locked in here. I'm watching and studying.

What's also everybody does everything different. You could just pick up little things here and there from what they do and start incorporating that.

People don't I know right before the fight with T. O, it was... I'm going to tell you a fight that I was watching. I'm going to give out a little secret. It was an eight-year-old kid, Tramaine Williams. He guy named Dusty Harrison, and they're literally eight years old. But I liked the way Tramaine was fighting in that fight. He was using his jab. He was the shorter fighter, but he was keeping his range and distance. And I was literally watching an eight-year-old kid fight right before the biggest fight of my life.

That's amazing.

And you were studying it. I'm studying it. Wow. I swear.

That's great. That's such a great mindset. I mean, that's how you really grow and learn. You It would absorb something from everybody.

Yeah, you can learn from anywhere.

I was watching an interview with you once where you were talking about Terrence, and you said you really learn more watching Terrance than you- than being in there, Terrance.

I still feel that way. I feel like I learn more from seeing the things he's doing than being in the ring with him. When we in the ring, it's always chest. We're having chest matches. But when I'm watching, I could see some of the things he's doing. And I'm like, damn, this dude is just different. I knew before the Spence fight what was happening. I knew before the Canela fight what was happening. Even when I was in the locker room, I'm in the locker room, I'm looking at him, call my Batman. I'm like, Yo, put me some more money in. I know what time it is. No lie, though.

But watching him in the gym, you got to see hard training sessions. You got to see when he looked great. You You got to see bad days in the gym. You got to see how he recovered, how he came back.

Like I said, he's one of the most competitive human beings I've ever met, so I do get to see all of it. I get to see go home with him, man. Okay, let me see how he thinking about this. He'll go back and watch the sparring, and when he's watching it, oh, my God, he's adjusting. His brain is just adjusting to the sparring that he just watched. And then we'll go in the gym the next day Now he's just doing things and everything just on point.

So do you do that?

Do you watch your sparring sessions? I learned that from him. I used to really never used to do that. But I had seen him. I forget what sparring session. He was watching. I want to say, on his iPad, and he was watching it. And then I seen him spot it the next time and I'm like, we look like a million bucks. The adjustments that he made was just insane. So I started doing the same thing. I'm like, if I have a day I don't like, I go home. Why did I have this day? Oh, my God. I keep doing that. Why do I keep doing it? Okay, I'm not doing that no more. Oh, I could hit him with this. I see that shot is open. Okay, now I'm going to hit him with this shot. And I think that helps me tremendously.

That makes sense. Like watching yourself as an observer the way you would watch an opponent.

Yeah. You got to see what you do good and what you do bad. And correct the things that you do bad.

Instead of just remembering it from the training, watching it.

Because I have a bad habit sometimes when I'm in a boxing gym, I like a fight. I don't know why I would get in there. Sometimes I just turn into a fighter instead of realizing that I'm a boxer. And then sometimes I get hit with shots and I'm like, oh, why am I getting hit with that shot? I'm like, I know. My mental, my My brain was already locked in on fighting instead of being locked in on boxing. Then you fight.

Explain to people what is the difference between your mentality fighting and your mentality as a boxer?

When I'm fighting, I'm emotional. I don't want to be emotional, but I'm emotional and I'm fighting somebody. I'm trying to beat them up and I'm having a contest of who's the The bigger and stronger guy. When I'm boxing, I'm just on top of my game and it's like I'm able to hit you and you're not able to hit me. And that's what I do best. So I try to stick with what I do best. And it's going to be a time to fight. So I have that in my arsenal for sure. But I don't like just doing it for no reason.

Do you sometimes feel yourself getting emotional in a fight and have to pull it back?

I never had it happen in a fight, but I don't had it happen in a spot to where, all right, bro, your emotions is just taking control instead of you just having fun and enjoying what you're doing.

Right.

So, yeah, I don't had no moments in the gym for sure.

So it's just a composure thing. All of a sudden, you're now not thinking as much. You're just trying to beat his ass.

Take the emotions out of the situation and just be you. Be present. That's really my main thing. I want to be present in what I'm doing and not moving off of feelings.

Right. That probably fucks up a lot of fighters, don't it?

For sure.

Because so many, especially men, they're so wrapped up in their feelings and their emotions when they're fighting.

Yeah, but fighters don't study their self. I study myself. I got to check in with myself and see what am I doing wrong and what am I doing right, and I correct it.

You think that's rare?

Yeah. I think that's a rare attribute because fighters depend on their coaches. They depend on their coaches to do everything. I depend on my grandfather when I need him, but I know that I'm the fighter that's in there. So I'm not trying to just depend on them. I want to depend on myself also.

So do you try to get the other guys in the gym to follow your footsteps and watch footage? You tell them, help them out with that?

Yeah. Like the younger guys that I just mentioned, my little cousin and my little brother down there, Manny. I try to tell them to tune in with their self and do the same similar things. Watch yourself, see what you're doing wrong and try to correct it. But they younger. So as time go on, they will pick up on it. But I can't rush how I feel and my beliefs on them right now.

Well, the best thing you could do is lead by example. Yeah.

Always. That's my main thing.

If you do all the hard work and you put it in, then they'll see your success. When they have harder moments, they'll go, Okay, what do I need to adjust? Let me follow secure. Well, let me see what the champ is doing.

Yeah, that's the goal. That's my main goal because Like I said, I ain't going to be boxing forever. So once I'm done, I'm going to sit back and I'm going to help them out.

Do you plan on coaching when you're done?

I probably don't coach.

Just help out in the gym?

Just call me a secret weapon. Call me a secret weapon. I'll be that guy.

Do you already think about what you're going to do when you retire? Because boxing is a sport where when you retire, you still have so much life ahead of you.

Man, that's the truth. But I've been trying to figure it out because I know it's going to be within boxing. But whatever I do, I'm going to do to the best of my ability. I'm going to want to make tons of money for what I'm doing. If I'm a secret weapon, shit, I might make money just being a secret weapon. So who is he? Right.

Just someone bringing to camp.

I'm the right guy for it. I got all the IQ. I watch too much boxing. My life is literally sit down and watch TV, watch iPad, watch. I just live boxing, so I think that'll be easy. But I just see myself I'm taking over the world.

In what way?

I don't know. I can't tell you. I don't know. My brain different. I don't feel like... I know for a fact I'm not going to be boxing for long. I don't plan on Getting in the ring, doing the rest and doing all that forever. So when I take over the world, it's going to be more so me just locking in and using the same focus that I got for boxing into whatever else that I'm doing and take over. Like, whatever I do, I want to be the best.

So you don't even have a thought of what it's going to be. You'll figure that out when you get out of boxing.

I journal a lot, so I'll be writing things down. Oh, really? I can't tell you exactly what it's going to be, but I do know that I'm going to be somewhere making millions in a different atmosphere.

Well, that's a great attitude to have. I'm glad you say you journal because this is one of the things that I wanted to bring up. I wish more More boxers were interested in writing books because I think there's some of the things that you're talking about today and some of the things you're talking about in terms of watching yourself, analyzing yourself, things you've learned, that would be very, very valuable if it's written down. But boxing knowledge is all word of mouth in the gym. It's all people who know things, tell other people, and they learn things. And you got to go to these gyms and talk to these people. Or you boxing knowledge from the commentators like Andre Ward will spit it out or Roy Jones will spit it out. That is where boxing knowledge gets recorded. But I think it would be great if boxers could sit down and write just on boxing. Because you think about what a huge sport boxing is. Huge sport. Like one of the pinnacles of sports, of combat sports. But yet there's not a lot of books written about technique and style and how they learn things and what they learned and why and what changed.

And I learned that in this fight, in this fight, this changed. And I adjusted this about my training sessions. And I heard Emmanuel Stewart talk about overtraining. And so I realized maybe I was doing that.

It is one book.

What is it?

Andre Will Book.

Oh, that's right.

Andre Will Book. You got to read it, but I'm not fully done I'm done with it either. But as I read through some of it, he's giving us some free game. It's free game in there that people could go listen to and read it and check it out because it's definitely like...

Did he read it for the audiobook?

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know I got the actual book, so I just read it, but I didn't finish it. I won't say that I finished it.

But he talks all about those things?

It's a lot of things in there that's free game. Like, okay, I like that. I might take that. If you're training, even if you're training a fighter, you're training a fighter. It's something that I saw that he said that I'm like, okay, I'm going to take that if I'm a training fighter.

Narrated by Andre Ward. Perfect. Killing the Image. A champion's journey, fighting and forgiveness. He's the perfect guy to do that, too, because like I said, he's the guy that did it right. Went out on top. And he helped you understand.

What's that? He helped you understand.

Yeah. Well, we need more books like that. I'll read that book. I haven't read it, but I'll read it because I think it's just there's so much knowledge out there in certain camps, and it would benefit the entire sport if someone would document some of that stuff. Because some of that stuff I was only told to the fighters that this guy's training and only told to the other fighters this guy trains with. And it's not out there, and it could get lost. I'm sure there's some shit that Floyd knows that The only people around him know that have been told that will be lost.

Yeah, for sure. You know what I'm saying? It's something he told me before this last fight that I took in and I'm like, oh. Really? What did he say? I'm using that. It's simple, though. It's very simple. Like I said, it's hard for me to keep giving When I do it. Maybe when I retire, I'll- Oh, come on, man.

What did he say?

No, he just told me stretching.

Stretching?

Stretching. How powerful stretching is. And I just gave up. It's simple, though. People know it, but do people do it?

Dude, people don't even do it in MMA. You know how crazy that is? Where you have to kick and people don't stretch? I was having a conversation with this dude who was a world champion, and I was explaining to him a jiu-jitsu position. I was like, this is why it's effective. He's like, oh, I can't get my legs up that high. I go, what are you talking about? You can. You just have to stretch. He goes, I don't really stretch. I go, that's crazy.

No, there's a lot of fighters in sports that's like, I don't see it.

That's crazy.

I don't see it.

Well, Floyd has always been a guy who did everything right. I mean, if you want to emulate a guy's career, Floyd has been hit hard maybe three times in his whole career.

Yeah.

Maybe.

Yeah, he's the truth.

A hundred %.

Every time I watch him- He's a lizard. I've barely seen anybody that good. For me personally, Yes. It's only a handful of people that I could say, Okay, they're that good. His brain just working at a different level than a lot of people.

Also just insanely disciplined, always in shape, always took care of himself, would go out to a club, drink water, and then run home in jeans.

That's tough. I heard he had on boots. I never heard of that like that before.

I could imagine. I can imagine. I mean, but that's the result, right? You get a guy who's just head and shoulders above everybody he fights. And just a master of pinpoint precision and movement and knowing where you are and hard to hit but stood right in front of you. That's the crazy thing about Floyd. There's a lot of guys that are hard to hit, but they were like, fleet of foot and moving around and footwork and Lomacheko style. Not Floyd. Right in front of you. Right in front of you, you can't hit him.

Crazy. Kind of similar to me. Yes. But I think he's definitely... He's a Chico. His mental was just too far ahead of everybody else's. Yeah. That's the main thing.

Well, the one fight between guys who retired and came back that I'm still interested in seeing is him and Manny, and I know they're going to do that on Netflix. I think that's still a high-level fight, though. That's what I love about it, because I think Manny is still a high-level fighter. And Floyd, even in these exhibitions that he's been doing- He be looking good, huh? He looks great, man. He looks great in sparring. You see him in sparring like, good Lord, man. It doesn't look like he's lost a step.

Yeah. Honestly, I don't see Manny being able to beat Floyd Mayweather. I don't see it. I think Manny looked solid in his last fight with Barrios, but I just don't see Floyd losing. I think it's some guys that he could come back today in the sport or box in their fight.

I think so. Like guys like Barrios? Even though he's 46. Yeah, right. I think he would- He would light Barrios up. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, there's levels. I mean, no matter what, he's lost being 46, They haven't gained that yet. I mean, they were never there in the first place. Because if he was here and he's lost this much, they're still here. Even though he's not Floyd that fought Canelo or Floyd that fought Ricky Hatton. It's not the same Floyd. It's not that much different. Yeah.

He's still so far ahead.

Because he's not drinking. He's not fucking his body up. He's not doing anything stupid. He stays in shape. He eats right.

I appreciate Floyd, too, because that's one of the guys that I never did no business with ever, and he still helped me. So I appreciate him, man. I think he's a real dude. He got my love and respect.

Well, I always say that if you wanted to have a style that you emulate, where you want to have a great career, look at that guy. Really, very few times in his career ever got hurt. Very, very few. You can count him on in hand, where he was in any trouble at all.

Yeah, that's my goal.

And then in rematches, oh my God. In rematches, he's always just like... Like My Donna. My Donna, the first fight was a rough fight. Second fight, He looked like a master.

I'm not going to lie, though. He's one of the guys that makes me want to feel the experience of getting hurt. Because when he fought Shane Moseley, that moment of He lost his whole balance. Everything almost went to his feet, but he stayed up. And then he fought back harder. I feel like that was an amazing moment of his career. For me, I want to have the experience of that moment. I have never got hit, cracked like that yet in a pro. So I actually want to experience.

You really want that? Yeah. Really? That's crazy.

Because I want to show- That you could do it. Yeah, You got to see I got more in me than just being a good boxer. I'm a good boxer, but I'm tough, too.

The mostly fight was probably the fight where he got hurt the most. Yeah. And the most dangerous because I think it was in the middle of the round, right? Yeah.

I want to feel that experience.

And that was prime, mostly, too.

I told Andre Ward that. He told me, Man, why would you want to? Why would you want to? But I'm like, I don't understand why, but I definitely do.

Who do you think out there could do that?

I don't think nobody. I don't think they're mentally on the level of achieving. I think I'm just too far ahead.

But that's the problem of being too far ahead is that it's going to be hard for you to get fights. What are they talking about right now? Is there anybody that they're talking about right now for you?

No, I haven't really heard none from a business standpoint since my last fight.

The problem is the last fight was too good. You would have probably got some offers before that fight, but after that fight, everybody's like, Hold on. I don't know if I want that to happen to me.

Yeah, I have no clue who I'll be fighting next.

Who do you have your sights on? If you could make the decision, who do you think is interesting right now?

If I could make a decision, what interests me maybe, and this is crazy to say, I may go back to 35 and get that ring belt. Really? I may. We'll see though. Yeah? I can't promise that I will, but I may.

What makes that more interesting to you?

I like the ring belt. I like the ring magazine I don't know what it is about it. It's a classic belt. I always liked it. It's a classic belt. But for me to have a ring belt at 130, and then I got a ring belt right now at 140, but I never had a ring belt at 35. And it's like, should I just go get that ring belt just to have it?

So it's the belt, not even the opponent.

I know the opponent that I would have to fight to get it. I'm hearing this, Rayman, Moriah, He's a good fighter. He just beat Andy Cruz. So no, this isn't the opponent. It's more so just to have a ring belt.

That's crazy. You're at a position where you're not even thinking about opponents. You're thinking about belts you'd like to acquire.

For sure.

That's pretty cool, though. I mean, that's a beautiful place to be in. Yeah. That's beautiful. But what about opponents? Is there any opponents? If no one could say no and you were like, I'm going to orchestrate my career, who would you like to fight?

If it was no opponents, and I was orchestrating, I'd probably- Because the fight that I would think that would generate the most amount of interest at 135 would be Tank.

Now, I know Tank's got some legal issues now, and I don't know what his status is currently. But in terms of big names, Tank is the big name at 35.

Yeah. I would love for it to happen, but the way that he went on social media and bashed me in a way to where it was like he made it seem like I need him. I just feel disrespected about it because at the end of the day, I'm a grown man. I make my own money. I'm living a spectacular life. I don't need nobody. So if he feel as though I need him and if it's that stuff, then it's like, whatever. I'm not in need of that fight.

The thing is, Tank had gotten a bunch of those high-profile fights. He KOed Ryan. He's had some big high-profile fights. He looked great. And so for him to say that, he's probably... He's talking shit, obviously. But he's looking at you as like, you haven't had before the Lopez fight, you haven't had that big breakout fight But now you have. Now you have. And it was more spectacular than me if you wanted to write out a perfect result on paper against a world champion like Tia Fimo. That would be the fight, you would say. If I had to think of a big fight for you, if I was the guy with the magic wand, that would be the fight that I would set up.

I would love the fight. I would love for that fight to happen.

That would be a big fight, especially after you just beat Lopez. That'd be a big fight.

I I love for the fight to happen.

That might be the only big fight that I could think of other than you going up. But 47, like you said, that's a big jump, man.

Yeah, I'll make it, though. I'll make it soon. I mean, later than sooner.

Do you think if you did that, you would want to prepare and put mass on, or would you just stay at the weight you are and just get accustomed to fighting bigger guys?

If I was to go to 47, I would want to prepare. I would want to do it slowly. I wouldn't want to just jump the 147.

You would want to put on weight, you think?

Yeah, some type of weight, yeah. Because I'm little. I can't just Jumping in the ring at the size that I am at 147 pounds when I know guys are going to be a lot bigger.

Right. Especially when you're talking about Ryan being 170 when he gets in the ring. He might even be bigger than that. He was big and ripped in his last fight. He looked fucking great.

Yeah, for sure.

But it's like, that's one of those things, too, is if you do go up, going down gets real hard, going back. If you go up to 47.

They always say that. I don't understand the reason with that.

Because your body gets accustomed to being bigger. For real? Yeah. So if you put on mass, right? So if you put on muscle and you go up to 147. And so you're walking around at 155, 160, something like that. You drop down to 47. You've got more shoulder muscle, chest muscle, back muscle, leg muscle. If you stay at that weight and then you got to cut down to 35, you're going to feel like shit. And the example that I always use is Roy. So when Roy Jones went up and fought John Ruiz, won the heavyweight title, then he went back down to light heavyweight, he never looked the same because he was 200 pounds solid at a heavyweight, ripped, like muscular 200 pounds. For him to lose 25 pounds of weight and go back down to light heavyweight, that is fucking hard.

Yeah, I get that. I feel like when Rory did that, Rory was like... I think he must have been trying to set up a big heavyweight fight maybe, or was he just trying to just win the title?

I mean, I think he was just trying to be the only guy to go from middleweight to win the heavyweight title, which he did.

Yeah, I don't understand I don't know why he did that because you're right. When he fought Tarver, it was like, I don't know what was happening. I didn't really think Tarva was as good as Rory, but Tarva beat Rory.

Tarva was a bad motherfucker, though. Tarver is a very good fighter. To beat Roy? I think Tarver in that fight, first of all, they had fought before. They had a real close decision loss, Tarver lost. And then Tarver got in his head at the beginning of the fight. So you got any excuses tonight, Roy? That was crazy. That was crazy. That was crazy. To hear that right when you're about to fight. Any questions for the champion? Any questions for the champion? Got any excuses tonight, Roy?

Oh, my God. I don't know.

That was one of the wildest things anybody's ever said.

That would have turned me up, though. If he would have said that to me, I'm trying to picture somebody saying that to me right before we fight. Now I already want to beat you bad. Now, I'm going to want to you even better. Then after the fight, I'm going to get on the mic and what did you say? Did you say something?

But when he dropped Roy and knocked him out, I was like, Oh, my God, I can't believe it. But I was worried about him because I know what that does to people when they drop weight. And dropping down from 200 pounds to 175 will really wear your body out.

Yeah. So you think it was more so the weight than the skills of Tarva?

I would never say that because I think Tarva has elite skills. I mean, Tarva is- Elite?

I think he's elite.

Oh, come on. I think Tarva is an elite fighter. Elite?

You don't think he's elite? No. No. Without due respect to Tarva.

He said great performances and not as good performances. But I think in the performance against Roy, he looked elite.

Yeah, he looked good that night.

Because he rose to the occasion.

I just don't know about elite. Elite level. I get it. For me, personally, I'm not the biggest Tarbour fan.

Okay. Well, I defer to your Championship knowledge. But in that fight, you can't say that he didn't look spectacular in that fight against Roy.

No, he did. He did. He looked on point. He looked like he was the better fighter at that moment.

Yeah. Awkward, southpaw.

When I watched the first fight, I thought Roy was a way better fighter than him. I thought Roy just stood on the ropes for way too long. I don't know why he did that.

Was the first fight before or after he fought Ruiz? It was after. Was it after the first fight they had, too? Yeah. That probably wore his ass out, too. I just think once you go all the way up like that, you should probably stay there. I don't know how he went up. I don't want to It's hard for a guy in his 30s to put on that muscle. And generally, you have some help. Yeah. So generally, some Mexican supplements involved. And so the problem is-Oh, my God.

He took osteoem.

Once you have taken that stuff and then you stop taking it because you want to go back to your normal weight, your whole endocrine system gets fucked up. This is the problem with juicers. Guys who take juice, the thing that happens is- Man, don't tell me this.

Hold on. No.

Listen, I'm not saying this about Roy.

Okay, okay, okay. I'm not saying this about fighters in general.

We just talk in general. Are we good? Fighters that gain weight and have lean muscle and put on that mass. Yeah. Generally, they're doing it with some supplement, some either steroids or something that juices up your endocrine system, whether it is- And it will help you gain weight? Peptides. Yes.

Damn, I never heard of this.

You didn't know? No. What? Come on, man. For real?

No, I didn't know.

Oh, come on. There's a lot of fighters that took stuff.

Oh, I know. No, I know that. I know that people is cheating.

Oh, well, in the older days before they were testing? Yeah. Oh, come on, man. In the '90s, who knows how many guys were on steroids?

Damn, that take away the credit of them guys because I feel like when I watched them guys, they was the truth. Now, you're telling me.

They are the truth. But I don't think... Well, let me use what I know for an example. And MMA. Mma is a better example. Because an MMA, fucking for sure, I could tell you 100 % people were juicing. 100 %. Because I knew guys who were juicing. They would tell me what they were on and everybody was juicing. So then they started implementing... So then the UFC starts getting sanctioned by athletic commissions, and they test day of the fight. The day of the fight test is an intelligence test. It's not a steroids test. It's like, were you intelligent enough to cycle off right before the fight with the right steroids so that on the way in day, when you get tested, you don't test positive? Yeah. That's all it is. And a lot of these camps, like big MMA camps, they have scientists working in the camps making sure- That's helping them cheat. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, not so much anymore. This is scary. Because then the UFC, it is scary. But the thing is, everybody was doing it. And then on top of that, you had an organization like Pride. And I don't know if you're aware of Pride, but Pride was the big organization in Japan.

I mean, they were selling out 90,000 seat arenas in Japan for these promotions. They were fucking huge. And everyone One was juiced to the tits. I don't know if everybody was, but a lot. I don't think Rampage was. Rampage told me he never took steroids, and I believe him. But a lot of guys were juiced up. And I know for a fact they were juiced up because they told me They told me. And they also told me, like Enson Innuway, who fought for pride, told me that on his contract- Innuway? Yeah, Enson Innuway. Oh. Yeah. Like not related, but same last name. Enson, he was a great a pioneer in MMA. Enson told me that on his pride contract, it said in all capital letters, We do not test for steroids. I had a friend in Japan. They encouraged him to take steroids.

See, It scared me because I got to get in a boxing ring and I know that people be cheating. Some people cheat. I know. It's be like low-level fighters that you'll go there and you'll be like, Why do this guy punch way harder than a lot of people? I don't understand it. And it's like, I don't...

Well, there's a few fighters in MMA that when steroids started being tested for, their body shrunk and then their power went away. There was guys that were knocking everybody out And then also they couldn't knock anybody out. It's crazy. I mean, there's so many stories in MMA where you see fighters' physiques just deflate. Like they're a balloon. They got air-led out of it.

I feel like I've seen it in boxing though. I see guys, they or get caught with steroids, and then they have a fight after that. And it's like- They look like shit. Where did the power go? Exactly. You lost all of your power?

That's fact. I get it. That does happen. And then there's also ways That we can't figure out what they're doing yet. I mean, this has happened all throughout sports, right? This was the whole thing with Barry Bonds and the Balco scandal in baseball. They had developed a steroid called the CLEAR. And what the CLEAR was, was a steroid that was undetectable. They hadn't figured, but eventually they got caught. And so who knows what shit. It's not like they stop trying to innovate and come up with ways to get an advantage. There's definitely people doing it now. But the way the UFC works now, the First they brought in USADA, now they have a company called Drug Free Sport that does the same thing, and they just show up and test you. You don't get a notification, it's going to happen next Tuesday, so you can take a bunch of shit that clears it out of your system. So they just show up Knock on your door. Hey, it's time for a test. And then you got to give them.

That's what Vata do.

That's how they should do.

Vata do the same thing. They just show up.

Yeah, that's how they should do. Your own rainblood.

Just any time. Actually, my last camp, they tested me like, Four or five times.

Well, that's the only way to know. You got to show up randomly and test guys. That's the only way to know.

I'm cool with it, though, because I ain't never, ever really did anything when it comes to cheating.

But if you go, and this is, again, not casting any disparaging remarks about Roy, who's one of the greatest of all time. But if you went back to the Ruiz fight, do you think they were testing him? I fucking doubt it. I fucking doubt it. There was no Vata testing back then.

But then you saw that was in boxing?

No, I don't think so. No.

I could have sworn they was in boxing.

Okay, let's find out. Was the Roy Jones, John Ruiz Jr. Fight, did they utilize Vata testing? I don't think they did.

Usado.

Usada. Usada. Okay, Usada. I don't think they did. I don't think that... Look, that was always a thing about Manny. People always said that about Manny.

I heard that, too. Right? The only reason why it was believable, though, because I never- He went up eight weight classes. I never seen that in my life. And kept the knockout power. I've never seen that in my life. Right. I never in the history of the sport, you go from what? 109?

Whatever he started at.

To 154 before and you're just knocking guys out. I know. That's crazy.

And his physique. I mean, he looks fantastic at every step of the way. And he also had that dude, what did it say? Was not held under a modern UFC style USADA program. There's no record of being part of any independent, year-round USADA-Vata scheme like we see today.

So they just depending on the athletic commission.

Yeah, but again, the athletic commission. It's just fight day. It's an intelligence test. I will show you. Show him Alister Overeem when he fought Brock Lesner at the weigh-in. Now, Alister Overeem is the greatest example in MMA of a guy who, when he was on the juice, he was unstoppable. Unstoppable. They called him Uber Eem when he was unstoppable because he looked like a comic book superhero. He was so jacked. And then when they started doing USADA testing, he looked completely different. I mean, completely different. He did. He got softer. He still looked good, but he didn't look like Uber Eem. There's an image of him flexing on the scale. Look at him right there. Come on, son. I mean, come on. Look at that girl. Look at Harry on his face. When she's looking at his back. She's like, What the fuck? I mean, come on, man. He was a fucking monster.

He was knocking guys out.

He was destroying everybody. He was destroying everybody when he was juiced up. And he started his career as a light heavyweight. So he started his career as a 205 pound guy who was thin and skinny. That's light heavyweight? Yeah, that's light heavyweight. The UFC's weight classes are all fucked up. I know it's stupid. They have the same names, but different weight classes. So like, Welterweight is 170 in the UFC. Yeah, look at him. So that's the difference between how he was when he was juicing versus how he was. You see the difference? It's crazy, right? Isn't it crazy? It's crazy. So the guy on the right was just, he had to move more. He was still very skillful. He was a very skillful kickboxer, very skillful MMA fighter. But when that guy was fully jacked up and juiced, man. He was almost unstable.

See, that's why I don't like that. That's my thing. I do not want to get in a ring with somebody that's cheating. I feel like that's But I'm so good to where it's like, even if you are cheating, you ain't going to hit me. You won't be punching on me.

But imagine if you're fighting a guy that's at your level, but he's cheating. That's the problem. That's the problem. Right now, there's not really anybody in your division that's at that level that's really compelling other than at 135 tank. But imagine if there's someone that's at your level and you're pretty sure they're cheating. That's got to fuck with your Honestly, I feel like it's some competitive guys at these weight classes.

They just not know. But there's some names that's like, okay, even Lamont Roach.

Lamont Roach is very good. That fight with Jervan Monte was crazy because that was a knock down. That's a fucking knock down.

He won. He won for sure.

The fact that he took a knee and the referee didn't call it a knock down, that's crazy.

Yeah, he won. But to say, I'm just I'm not saying it is guys out there for me.

Lamont is a great example.

Will be big fights and competitive fights. I don't inspire Lamont, so I know Lamont is a competitor.

He's legit. I mean, a lot of people did not know about him before that fight, but after that fight, I mean, Look, that sucks, man, because that goes down on his record as a loss. Was it a draw? Draw. That's right. It was a draw. And he won the fight?

He clearly won.

He won the fight? Yeah. I thought he won the fight anyway.

Yeah, I did, too.

But the knock down, you can't say, I got shit in my hair and it got in my eyes, and that's why I went down. That's crazy.

That was very amateurish. It was weird, right? It was amateurish. It was weird. I never saw nothing like that.

Well, it's like Gervante just looked like his head wasn't totally there in that fight.

Yeah, maybe.

So do you require Vata testing for all your fights? And do you have that ability to do that? Yes. So in negotiations, you make sure that everybody is getting tested.

When they come down to- Good for you.

I do not play that. Yeah. Good for you, man. Good for you. I mean, we're very fortunate that we have these testing bodies like that now available. Because, again, who knows what a lot of fighters legacies would be If they were testing them at every step along the way.

Yeah. They'd get caught.

They'd get caught. Yeah. So with MMA, it was the Wild West for a long time. For a long time. It was the Wild West. Everybody was doing all kinds of shit.

I wouldn't be able to I would not be able to get in the ring, lose to somebody, and then know they cheated me. Because I don't know how I would react to that. That would be one of the moments I may crash out, and I don't do crash out things. So I might crash out about like, ain't no way you just cheated me, bro. Ain't no way you just cheated me, bro.

Well, the thing is with combat sports versus every other sport is your goal is to hurt your opponent. And if there's a thing you're doing that's cheating that helps you hurt your opponent, that is a different cheating. It's not like cheating in baseball. Who gives a fuck if you hit another home run? I think they should all cheat in baseball. I think they should all get on steroids. Make it more exciting. Because the only thing that's exciting about baseball is home runs. That's the number one thing. If you got a way that you guys can hit more home runs, fucking give it to them. Will you?

It's stupid. It's like it's not really going to hurt nobody.

Exactly.

So I get it. Exactly. But in boxing, it's like... It's life or death.

Boxing is real life or death.

That's why I don't know how I would react. Anybody watching this, please don't cheat me. I am not the guy to be cheated. So Just understand that.

Well, I mean, whenever people are looking for shortcuts and people want to win, there's always going to be someone that's willing to do something that they're not supposed to be doing.

That ain't it, though. Like you said, it's life or death. Life or death. So you could cheat and hit somebody with the wrong shot, and then they dead. What's the guy that killed somebody? Sabrio Matias. He killed the dude, and now he just got popped for cheating. So it was like-Oh, he did? Yeah.

I didn't know that. What did he get popped for?

I don't even know.

He lost recently, right? He lost to that.

Yeah, right before the loss, they had popped him for cheating, I want to say. Dalton Smith.

So he got popped and then he lost the next fight?

Yeah, they let him fight. Wow. Yeah.

But it's like- I wonder if he's the same guy after he got popped.

That's what I see, too. I don't know either.

Because he was killing everybody.

Yeah, he actually- Not only killed one guy. Yeah, but He actually killed somebody. But if I'm the family of somebody that he killed and now he comes out as cheating, I will be like, 'Hold up now, bro.

' Can you see when Matias got popped for? That's crazy. Who was the dude who just beat him? Dude just stopped him. Dauce & Smith. Yes. That was a crazy fight.

That was crazy. They were going to war.

They went to war. I mean, that was not an easy fight for him. And Matias is a dangerous dude, man.

Yeah, that was a great performance by Dauce & Smith, though. People don't know, back in the day when I was in the Junior World, me and him went to the worlds together.

So Osterine. Everybody's on Osterine. What is it about? I don't even know much about Osterine. What does Osterine do, Jamie? Let's find out what does. Osterine selective androgen receptor modulator designed to treat muscle wasting conditions and osteoporosis by promoting muscle growth and bone density without the severe side effects of anabolic steroids, popular amongst bodybuilders for enhancing muscle mass and fat loss. It's not approved for human consumption by the FDA, banned by WADA, and linked to side effects like liver toxicity, testosterone, suppression, and cardiovascular risks. So it helps you keep muscle and bone density. Yeah. Well, it makes sense that that would be a good supplement for boxers. What are you showing me here? Before or after. Look at that guy. The one you got your link on? Jesus. Well, he looks like he's faking it in the third picture. But I mean, you're They're always going to have certain people that are going to cheat. I hate it. Are there any world title fights that take place that don't have Vata testing?

Yeah, I think it is. I think people fight without it, but I don't play that. I don't play that. I don't play that. I be thinking, man, I had a sparer, the dude in the gym that was not good one time. He's not good at all. But I'm sparring him. Like, man, this dude punch harder than everybody I've ever been in the ring with. And I wonder, did that dude, do he be cheating?

Well, some dudes just have natural God-given power, too.

When you're fat, not you're out of shape, then you just punch super hard and it's slow, but it's like, boom, boom. I've been thinking people be, gee.

They might be, but they might just have the gift. Yeah, that's true. The thing about boxing is punching power, you can enhance your punching power, but that crazy punching punching power, that's a gift. You were born with it. You were born with it. Like Ernie Shaver's type punching power or Deontay. Wilder. Wilder. The greatest example ever.

Oh, my God.

One shot with Teddy Atlas is the best example. He called it The Eraser. All the mistakes you made, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, because I sit there and watch Wilder and I'm like, dog, it's some fights that I see him not punch at all until the shot is there. And when the shot is there, he got you. It's over.

It's crazy how hard he hits. He's over. I mean, he might be the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight division.

I think he is. I think it's like no question. He's probably the hardest puncher that ever box.

He's up there. I mean, Ernie Shaver is back in the day- Punch harder than Wilder. Wow. They all said Ernie Shavers was the... Even Ali said, Nobody hit harder than Ernie Shavers. Wilder. I know. And the thing about Wilder, too, is he's not big. He only weighed 209 when he fought Tyson Furie the first time.

That right here, he got- Crazy. I don't think nobody could take it. It's crazy. I don't think nobody could take it. I was not going to lie. I saw a ferry take it, but- You know what he's like?

He's like a giant Tommy Burns. Yeah. That's what it's like. Long, leverage, just torque, the width of the shoulders, the snap of the punch, just blop.

I wish he retired, though. I feel like what else is there to do? You done did a lot in the sport. You done made a lot of money. I just wish certain guys just like, okay.

I know.

What am I doing this for now?

Well, he's going to fight Derek Jessara, which is interesting because they're both the same age. They both have 50 fights. They're both in the same, but you know.

I I like Derek Chisler. He's a cool dude, too.

He seems cool. Yeah. I mean, it's a great time for boxing. There's a lot of talent, a lot of very compelling matchups. Are they going to do a B-Val, a better B-A rebatch? Are they going to do a trilogy?

I don't want to I want to see B-Val versus Benavides. That's the fight.

Well, the fight was Benavides versus Canelo. But that never could get made for some reason.

I mean, that dude is just too big for Canelo, though. I see both sides. I love Benavides and I'm a fan of him. So I see the side of fight me, bro. You the guy, I'm the guy. We number one, number one, let's fight. But then I see Canelo side, he's like, Man, this dude is 200 pounds on the regular, and I'm nowhere near that weight. So it's like, Why would I fight this guy? I don't think it's fair. That's how he felt himself.

Yeah, I understand it. But Canelo went up and fought Bival.

But he knew. He didn't think Bival was going to be him.

You don't think so? No.

He didn't think. He thought he was going to beat Bival.

After Bival beat him, you think that killed the chances of a Bennavita fight?

Yes, he knew it was time. I cannot fight these guys that's super big.

I love watching Bennavita's fight. Yeah, he's the truth. He's a mauler.

He's a killer. He is a fucking killer. He did something that helped my hands. He told me to put on the gloves that I'll be wearing on fight night. They helped my hand, so I appreciate him, too.

Do you do anything to strengthen your hands? Do you do exercises?

Yeah, I can't tell anybody. You can? All right. Tell me later. Yeah, I'll tell you later.

There's a bunch of different things people do. Like Buckets of Rice is a big one. Oh, yeah, for sure. I do that, too. Moving your hands around a Bucket. What is it? Benavita's target is to meet you, Bival. Oh, there we go.

That's the fight. That's the fight. That's the best versus the best. I think that's one of the best fights to make in the sport of boxing.

Well, he's fighting Ramirez at Cruiserweight, right? Yeah. And then he's going to drop back down to light heavyweight and fight Bival. I like that. I want to make the biggest and the best fights happening. Fuck, yeah.

Yeah, that's one of the best fights in the sport.

Arthur You're better be of... But better be of is like 40 now. Yeah.

He's the truth, though, too.

Oh, he's the truth. He was a crusher forever.

He punched too hard.

Oh, my God.

He's another one.

He just bangs dudes out. He's got a crazy style. It's funny when people sparred him, they have these stories. He hits you and you're like, What just happened?

I could see it, though. When I watched him fight B'Vaar, I'm in front row. And B'Vaar, they catch shots on his glove. And I could see how hard he was punching his glove. I'm like, Damn. I don't know how B'Vaar is taking that.

I know. And he was 39 back then. That's what's crazy. It's like we missed his prime, unfortunately.

Yeah. We've seen one fight where he fought the overseas, something, and he beat him up. Oh, my God. He beat him up.

Well, he was at one point in time, wasn't he? Like 39 and with 39 knockouts, which is just nuts.

At that level, that is just nuts. Punching too hard.

It's just nuts that he stopped everybody.

And it looks natural, too. It don't look like he's on like still worries about it. No, it looks natural. It looks very natural.

But didn't he get caught with something?

He got caught with something?

Yeah. Put that, it better be it.

Not better be it, man.

I feel like I might be wrong, but I feel like maybe there was a tainted supplement.

Man, come on. Not a better be it.

I think so. I might be wrong. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

You got to be wrong for a better be it.

This was 2024, is that? Atypical. Yeah, this is what it was. Atypical drug test result. Adverse findings may have threatened. Now, what does that mean? What does it say? Look at Conor McGregor screaming and yelling. What does it say? What did he get caught with? Atypical finding is not a violation requires more testing. Better be have underwent those examinations at Vata request. Vata reported negative results from the follow-up test. So what was the positive test? What does that mean?

Yeah, what do that mean?

Oh, here it goes. He received atypical findings for human growth hormone, N5D androsdanadyol. Both occur naturally in the body when an Atypical finding is received. Further testing is required to determine if an athlete naturally produces the substance in his or her body at a greater level than the average or elevated levels, which were signs of antidoping. Interesting. Okay. So it could just be that he just has naturally high levels of HGH and this 5D androsyndial. So that might be what it is.

Or He was cheating.

Could be some sneaky shit. I mean, did you ever see the documentary Icarus? This is a great documentary about the drug scandal in the Olympics in Russia. And so this was, what was this, 2016? Which was it, Jamie?

Was that the Olympics I was at? Yeah, I was there. And they banned the whole Russian team? Exactly. I thought that was 2020, though.

They banned the Russian team in the follow-up Olympics, I believe. Yeah, in 2020. Because of the 2016. So this guy, Brian Fogel, did this documentary. It's a crazy documentary. And the documentary was not supposed to be- 2014 Winter Olympics. 2014 Winter Olympics. So what happened was Brian Fogel was doing a documentary. So he's a cyclist and a documentary guy. And so he said, I want to do a cycling event, a race, completely natural. And then I want to do it on steroids and I want to document it all. And then make this documentary on what is the difference and just show it. Because cycling is a very dirty sport. Tour de France, those guys, they put engines in their fucking bike to make it easier to pedal. They do a lot of crazy shit, blood doping. So he does this naturally, and then he gets this guy. What was his name again? Grigory Richenko. Who was Richenkov, who was the head of the Russian Anti-Doping Federation, but it was really a doping federation. So what they were doing at the time was... So he starts working with this guy. This guy's telling them what steroids to take and how to get better.

At the same time, the Russians get caught while he's filming all this. And that guy has to leave the country, and that guy spills the beans. And he tells them exactly what they did. And what they did was they took the clean urine. They made a hole in the wall. So the place where they stored all the urine, they made a hole in the wall where they could swap out the Russian urine and swap it in for good urine. And they found these microabrasions on these supposedly unopenable jars. And so when they looked at it with a microscope, they said they figured out a way to open these jars. So they would pass it through the hole in the wall, open the jar, empty it out, put in clean and give it back to them. So essentially, the entire team was doped up.

Yeah. So basically, that's why they say in the Olympics, they wasn't sure if Russia was going to be able to compete, right?

Exactly. And so in Brazil, the follow-up Olympics, the next Olympics, the entire team couldn't compete.

The cycling team?

No, the entire Russian team. So the cycling thing was just this guy that was doing this documentary, and he was using the head of the Russian anti-doping agency to help him do it, like, openly. So it was just for a documentary. It wasn't like trying to win a race and cheat. He was like saying, let's see what you would give me and how much better my performance would be. So in the middle of doing all this, this scandal gets exposed. And this guy who he's using is at the head of the scandal. And then this guy tells him everything. And it's nuts.

Russia did compete in the Olympics, though.

They did compete in 2016.

They must have didn't compete in 2020 then.

Well, it was one of the... I think they allowed individual athletes to compete, whatever the subsequent Olympics was, but they didn't allow them to represent Russia.

Okay. Yeah. Because it was a guy from Russia in my weight class. Oh, yeah? In the 2016 Olympics. He definitely was strong, too.

Well, the Russians, they were the beginning of all this stuff, like the Eastern European women weight lifting.

So they came up with the cheats.

Well, they figured it out. They figured it out early on. They've been doing it a long-ass time. So who knows with Better Be Ever or any of these guys. You've got to always assume that without something like Vata or drug-free sport or Usada, there's always going to be someone who's trying to figure out a way to get a competitive advantage.

Yeah, I hate it.

It's gross.

I hate it. It comes with it, though.

Yeah, it comes with it. It is what it is. Anything else you want to cover before we wrap this up?

No, I ain't got nothing else.

I think we're good. Listen, man, congratulations on everything. It's been beautiful to watch you fight. I'm a giant fan. Thank you. And I'm happy to see after the Lopez fight, you get all the respect and the credit that you deserve. And I can't wait to see what happens next. Thank you.

I appreciate you. And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on the podcast. One of the best podcasts in the world.

I appreciate you. Thank you very much. My honor. All right. Bye, everybody.