Transcript of Trump Plans to Abandon Clean Energy. Can He Do It?

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One medium pizza and any side, just 4,99, or make it large for another 2 euro. T's and C's apply. We love extra. Apache Pizza. From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. Among the many plans that Donald Trump laid out on his first day as President was a directive to abandon the shift toward clean energy and double down on oil. Today, my colleague, Coral Davenport, on whether Trump can pull it off and what it would mean for the country if he did.

It's Thursday, January 23rd.

Coral, we're taking a close look this week at the most important parts of Trump's agenda so far. He laid them out with a whole series of executive orders on the first day of his presidency. For Wednesday's show, we looked at measures related to immigration, but today we wanted to look at his efforts on energy policy, which is obviously hugely important for the US economy, but also for the climate. You are digging into this in your reporting. Explain what Trump did this week.

Within hours of inauguration, Trump signed this flurry of executive orders touching all kinds of pieces of policy. There were about six executive orders specifically related to energy, but within them, some of those orders had more than a dozen different policies. If you look at all of these added up together, they very clearly realized Trump's vision, which he has expressed forcefully throughout his campaign, of an American economy driven and centered on unleashing new forces of fossil fuels, more energy, more gas, more coal, more drilling, more mining, more use of those fossil fuels. That is the core driver of the American economy and of revenue and of what he sees as American dominance. Thank you very, very much. You heard him on Monday during his inaugural speech saying that we will... Drill, baby, drill. Drill, baby, drill. America will be a manufacturing nation once again, and we have something that no other manufacturing nation will ever have, the largest amount of oil and gas of any country on Earth. And very aggressively slamming the brakes on clean energy. With my actions today, we will end the Green New deal, and we will revoke the electric vehicle mandate, saving our auto industry and keeping my sacred pledge to our great American auto workers.

This has been his vision for a long time. But more than that, it's about wanting to be seen as doing an aggressive U-turn on the Biden administration. President Biden, in his inauguration address and on his first day, made clear that he wanted climate to be central to his legacy, and it really was. For President Trump to come in on his first day and make clear that he's going to tear that apart is a specific, clear, and personal message to his predecessor that I think he wants to send.

Okay, let's dig into what these orders actually say. But before you really spell that out, Coral, give me a sense of what his reasoning is for doing doing this? Does he say that in the executive orders?

He does. He talks about energy prices being too high because of regulation. He suggests that there is some energy shortage that is hampering the US economy. He essentially declares what he calls an energy emergency. When a president does that, it gives them the executive authority to basically hop over a bunch of rules and laws things that get in the way of getting things done.

It enhances their authority in a way. Exactly.

He's saying, We have energy shortages, prices are too high under an energy emergency. I don't have to follow permitting or regulation or basically obey a lot of rules that are there in order to make sure that we get these supplies of energy to American consumers and businesses.

He's taking this extraordinary step, but is the US actually in an energy emergency?

By no measure is the United States in an energy emergency. Right now, the United States is the largest producer of oil and gas in the world. It's currently producing more oil and gas than any country has at any time in history. The price of oil right now globally is at about $76 a barrel. That's about the average that it's been for the last 20 years adjusted for inflation. Price of gasoline is near a three-year low. Supplies are a Prices are moderate. I cannot find anyone who can understand what the fundamentals are for making this argument.

Okay, so this may be an energy emergency only by name, but he is declaring it, which means he is signaling that this is an important issue to him. This is going to be central to his new presidency. How does he propose taking it on?

He's casting a really broad net here, but at the At a 3,000-foot level, I think it comes down to three basic categories. One is pushing for more oil production. Two is limiting EVs, stopping the use of electric vehicles and the support for electric vehicles, and limiting renewable energy but particularly limiting wind power. Okay, so that's a lot of stuff.

Let's start with oil, this big one that you mentioned at the beginning.

Yeah, Trump loves to talk about unleashing American oil, but how does one unleash American oil, particularly Particularly since we are in the largest oil boom of any country at any time in history. How do you unleash even more than that? This is what he says he wants to do. He wants to open up more federal lands to drilling, and then he also wants to basically eliminate or speed up all the rules and permitting and regulations that oil companies have to comply with in order to get access to this land, both to drill and also, by the way, to move oil, the pipelines, the ports, the terminals, all of that We're going to make that really easy for you. Check a box and get right at it.

Why exactly does he want to do those things in particular? How does that fit into his vision?

Trump talks about how if the price of oil goes down, if the price of gasoline goes down, the pitches like this makes life easier for everyday Americans. Trump's nominee for Treasury Secretary said during his confirmation hearing that a core part of his plan is lowering inflation and says that lowering gas prices is a central part of that effort.

Okay, so that's oil. You talked about a couple of different things. Electric vehicles was another piece of his plan. Tell me about what Trump is proposing on that front.

Sure. This is a huge piece of Trump's plan, just in the same way that it was a huge part of Biden's legacy. Burning gasoline and oil from vehicles are the number one contributor to climate change. Of course, vehicles are the main consumer of oil. In these day one executive orders, Trump is focused on two of the biggest policies that Biden rolled out to advance electric vehicle adaptation in the US. The first is a giant law that was passed in 2022, the Inflation Reduction Act, that included billions of dollars of tax credits and tax incentives for EVs. This is consumer tax credits, so individual purchasers of EVs could get $7,500 tax credits Meaning people buying cars. People buying cars. If you want to buy an electric vehicle, you can get up to $7,500 written off on your taxes, courtesy of Biden's law. It also guided billions of dollars directly to automating so they can get a lot of tax credits for building and selling cleaner cars. Then on the other end, he put in place this regulation on the car companies that compels them to lower the fossil fuel emissions associated with their auto sales such that by 2032, more than half the new cars sold in the United States would pretty much have to be all EVs.

Right now, about 10% of new cars sold in the United States are electric vehicles. This would get us to over 50%. Wow. And Trump hated this. He went after it so hard. There were a couple of reasons for this. One, he went after it because the oil producers, the oil companies hated it because it's really taking away a gigantic market for their product. But Trump, in a very savvy way, tapped into this idea that this is the government telling you what you can drive. That really resonated. He would say, The Biden administration is going to take away your choice for what you're going to drive. This really was a very potent political argument, and I think it resonated deeply with his base and beyond. That's the biggest piece that we saw Now, Trump talking about rolling back.

Coral, I'm thinking as you're talking here about EVs about Elon Musk, who is, of course, the CEO of Tesla, which is this premier electric car company. As of late, Trump's in some He's a right-hand man. It seems like as the head of this company, he'd be a powerful opponent to this idea. He would not want Trump to rip up this Biden stuff when it comes to EVs.

You would think. It's so fascinating because also, Tesla could get the text credits. Tesla has been a big beneficiary of all of these programs. However, Tesla is a really interesting company because unlike the rest of the US auto industry, of course, all it makes his EVs, and it's doing really well. A lot of these programs are really designed to help boost the legacy auto companies to make that transition, which is very expensive. They have to invest in new R&D, They still have these old product lines. How do they balance it and build new things? None of that really applies to Tesla. What Musk has said on earnings calls to his shareholders, essentially, if all that stuff goes away, it will ding Tesla, but it will hurt the competition so much more that Tesla will come out much further ahead. Interesting. In fact, Musk has made complain that he is just fine with rolling all that stuff back because if the competitors are not getting all that government help, they're really going to struggle with this transition, and consumers will be forced to go to Tesla.

Not what I was expecting.

No.

What else, Coral, is Trump proposing here? You mentioned wind.

This also has to do with this being a signature move of the Biden administration. The Biden administration really tried to push the development of wind on public lands. They opened up all public lands, and they permitted these giant wind projects, and they said, This is a good use of public land, and we want to very proactively, aggressively push this expansion. So Trump is saying, No, we will be withdrawing those permits. We will shut down this effort to do this.

But what does Trump gain from doing this to wind? I mean, aside from sticking it to Biden.

Honestly, being anti-wind has been a core Trumpism for a long time. He has long railed about wind. He talks about how wind turbines kill birds and cause cancer. That's not true. They don't cause cancer.

I remember that.

There was the wind farm that was like, obstructing the view, I think, from the Trump resort in Scotland I think also, if you think about a giant wind turbine, it is such a symbol of clean energy, of this broader movement and set of policy and ideological ideas that Trump is just in aggressive opposition to. It's the perfect symbol, right? It's the perfect clean energy symbol to oppose.

Coral, listening to you talk, it really feels like Trump's vision for this American energy future is essentially an effort to wipe away the last four years of what the climate movement had achieved.

It is. I think a lot of energy economists and historians will say, What Trump is trying to do here is to realize a vision of the past. But the reality is, he can't just will that into existence. I think that a lot of this vision that he has laid out quite clearly in these executive orders will be a lot harder to realize in law and policy.

We'll be right back.

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We'll get some great stories from them, too. It's the interview from the New York Times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Coral, you just said that there's a big question about how much of this very ambitious agenda Trump is actually going to be able to do. Let's go through this bit by bit, Coral. Where should we start in terms of whether this is going to work?

Some of this he absolutely can do with executive authority, but a lot of it really is not the purview of the executive branch. It will only happen depending on what Congress does. In some cases, it's really not up to the government at all. It's up to markets. But I think the thing that they really can carry out pretty soon is the withdrawing and ending of permits for wind energy. That is fully the purview of the executive branch. That was something that the Biden administration was able to do early and aggressively, the Trump administration can take that away, and I think it will have a significant impact as well. I do think that will really slow down the growth of an industry that's really just getting off its feet and starting to It's really close to go on its own and getting knee-capped at this moment, I think it will not kill it. There is growing demand. The price of wind power is low. In some cases, a third as cheap as coal power. But if the permitting is taken away, it will slow down its growth quite significantly.

What about EVs? What can Trump do on that front?

Evs are more complicated. We talked about the Biden EV tax credits, the consumer tax credits for buyers of electric vehicles, all the money for the companies that are making it. All of that is authorized by Congress. All that is already in the law. The President cannot make that money go away. The federal government is obligated to continue to give money. The only way it can really stop it is if Congress enacts a new law that ends a lot of those tax policies. Even though we are in a Republican-majority Congress, it's far from clear that all Republicans really want that. Why? Because a lot of those EV tax credits for manufacturing are going to red Congressional districts. There are a lot of Congressional districts with Republican representatives where all this money is flowing in and creating new EV battery plants, new manufacturing along the EV supply chain that has created jobs. There's a number of Republicans who are raising their hands and saying, Okay, maybe we want to repeal some things that Biden did, but not this EV manufacturing tax credit, not that one. I don't think they'll be able to wipe those all off the books.

Is there any way that Trump can take action here, Coral, on EVs without Congress? What can he do?

The big thing that the administration can do, and I'm certain they will do, is this big regulation that compels automakers to reduce the emissions associated with cars sold. That was done through the Environmental Protection Agency, and I fully expect the Trump EPA to initiate a regulatory rollback of that. That will take a lot of time, though. In the first Trump administration, they similarly tried to roll back a clean car rule. That took all four years. They didn't finish that until 2020. It was one of the last things that they did. It's difficult. It takes time, but ultimately, they I would do it without Congress. They had the legal authority. I would fully expect them to see a rollback of that regulation.

So he could do it, but it could take his entire term.

Exactly. Yes.

Okay, so taken all together, even if Trump can only get some of these EV plans done, his push against EVs is presumably pretty good for automakers generally, right? Like less regulation is probably a good thing?

You know, automakers don't like regulation, but what they hate even more is this uncertainty. They really hate this, back, forth, back, forth, back, forth. One reason for this is that automakers have to plan what cars are going to be in showrooms like five or six years from now. If all these laws and rules go away, then it's really difficult for them to have invested all this money into cars that there may be no demand for. This is a challenge for automakers. Here's another really big challenge for automakers. The global market is already moving towards EVs. In China, more than half the new cars sold are now EVs. American automakers really want to get that market and compete. They want to be selling their EVs to China. Interestingly, as much as they really don't like tough regulations, the automakers have been going to Trump and saying, Look, please don't do this. Don't ratchet this all the way back. The market is already transitioning. The horse is out of the barn. Probably not the best metaphor. I don't know. The electric car is out of the garage. Whatever. It's happening. The US auto industry needs the government to help push it along in the same direction as the rest of the global market, because if it doesn't, it's not going to be able to compete.

Okay, so the picture on Trump's plans is pretty mixed when it comes to these renewables. But what about his plans to increase oil production? What about what he wants to do with oil?

Well, in terms of the policies that he would follow, this is one where he really does have a ton of executive The executive branch can open up a lot of federal land and waters for more drilling. They can streamline and ease a lot of the regulatory requirements. To be clear, the oil companies are delighted with this. They love it. They want to have all that access. Here's what they don't necessarily want to do. They don't necessarily want to do a whole bunch of new drilling now.

Why is that?

Yeah. That's the thing that Trump has been calling for, unleashish, unleashish, drill, baby, drill, et cetera. With a lot more production online, prices go down. That's not really what the companies want. They would like to keep prices in a nice medium range. Here's the other thing is, Trump can't direct publicly traded companies what to do in this space. They are going to respond to the market. There's not a button or a lever that Trump can press to cause more drilling to take place. The United States is not a PetroState.

They're not Russia or Saudi that can flick a switch at the government level.

Exactly. But PetroState can do that. The United States can't. What we hear from companies is, Love all this, but are we going to start drilling a whole bunch more right now? No.

In other words, he can make it easier to drill more, but until the companies actually want to drill more, these policies won't result in more drilling.

Right.

If the companies aren't going to be drilling more, is there anything Trump can do to get energy prices lower?

Well, there is one policy lever that the executive branch has that really is seen as effective in lowering prices, and that is aggressively reducing consumption. But the policies that reduce oil consumption are switching to EVs and switching energy-efficient appliances. The less demand there is, the more supply there is, the lower prices. But that is the exact opposite of what he is doing. Getting back to these day one orders, it's not just about putting the brakes on EVs. They specifically mention rolling back appliance efficiency standards for things like washers and dryers and gas stoves and light bulbs, all these measures that were actually put in place in the '70s so that the US would consume less fossil fuel and be less reliant on fossil fuel and prices would go down.

The one thing that the government could actually do as a policy lever to bring prices down, Trump is actually proposing to go in the opposite direction of.

Exactly.

Stepping back for a moment, when we look holistically at everything laid out in these executive orders, what does all of it add up to, both for Trump's vision, but also for the United States and where it's headed when it comes to energy and its future?

Well, there's two pieces to that. If the question is what's at stake, what all of these policies are about, fundamentally, is how much fossil fuel emissions will be produced by the world's largest economy. That's really important because scientists have told us that the world's major economies have until 2030 to cut emissions in half from 2005 five levels in order to avoid the most catastrophic impacts of climate change in our lifetime. If some of these policies are rolled back, it will slow down the US enough such that there's no way it will hit that target, and essentially, we'll bake in these catastrophic climate impacts.

Even though Trump faces a lot of roadblocks here, he would probably still be able to do enough to slow us down pretty meaningfully in terms of fighting climate change.

Absolutely. I mean, we're We're facing essentially a five-year window, and we're facing a four-year term in which we will see this clean energy transition substantially slowed within the United States. There is one other piece of this, Sabrina, which is that this is happening around the world. We see these investments in EVs, in wind, in solar. We see major corporations and industries around the world in a global race to be the ones to own these technologies, to license them, to profit from them. If the US is basically going in the opposite direction, that does reduce US competitiveness. It takes the United States economy. Instead of racing forward, it's looking backwards. I think Trump's vision, particularly on energy, is very proudly rooted in the middle of the 20th century. It is a vision that is built on oil, that is built around the combustion engine as the rest of the world is trying to race to achieve these competitive 21st century goals.

It's a vision of America from the 1950s or the 1960s.

I think Trump would proudly own that, which I think really illustrates that so much of this is not about economics. It's not about fundamentals. It's about his individual vision and ideology and perspective and where he comes from and what shapes him and how that is coming out in these profoundly important policies.

Coral, thank you.

Thank you so Very much, Sabrina. It's always great to be with you.

We'll be right back.

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Here's what else you should know today. On Wednesday, the Trump administration threatened federal employees with, adverse consequences if they failed to report on colleagues who defy orders to purge diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts from their agencies. Tens of thousands of workers were put on notice that officials would not tolerate any efforts to hide the programs, which the Trump administration took the first step toward eliminating on Tuesday when it placed employees working in DEI offices across the government on administrative leave. And a new fire exploded north of Los Angeles, bringing fear once again to Southern California, more than two weeks after wildfires first tore through the region. The blaze, named the Hughes fire, ignited just before 11: 00 AM local time, about 40 miles northwest of downtown Los Angeles. It quickly consumed more than 5,000 acres in a little over 2 hours, and forced tens of thousands of people to flee. Today, Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipco, Shannon Lynn, Alex Stern, and Sydney Harper. It was edited by M. J. Davis Lynn and Liz O'Balen, with help from Lisa Chou. Contains original music by Dan Powell and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of Wunderly. Special thanks to Yufim Shapiro and nick Pitman. For The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.