Transcript of The Charming, Amusing, Surprisingly Low-Confidence Matthew Rhys

I'm Anna Martin, the host of the Modern Love podcast. In every episode, we peek into an intimate corner of someone's life and learn about what love means to them.

You know, I can tell you, 35 years with another person, I've never spent that much time with anyone else either.

So we both kind of said I love you pretty fast.

My advice is that it's okay if it's hard.

You can listen to Modern Love wherever you get your podcasts. From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu García-Navarro. The actor Matthew Rhys is on a tear. He starred in this year's surprise breakout hit, Widows Bay, as a small-town mayor trying desperately to bring tourism to his sleepy island despite locals warning that the place is haunted. Rhys also starred in The Beast in Me as Nal Jarrah, as Travis, a New York real estate developer rumored to have murdered his wife. Both of those parts won him Emmy nominations this year. Yes, he's nominated twice. But as I found out when we spoke, that doesn't mean he's feeling secure in his career. We got into that and talked about some of his other memorable roles and about his life with his partner, Keri Russell, who he fell in love with on the set of The Americans. Here's my conversation with Matthew Rhys. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. Now explore The Times for free without paywalls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it.

Okay, on to the interview. Matthew Rees, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for the invite.

So the best description of you that I've seen is actually your own.

Oh, God. Yes. Here we go. Yeah. Immediately panicked.

All right. You said once that you are, quote, "eternally seeking to channel the spirit of David Niven." And that, of course, is referring to the great leading man who has Welsh roots, I discovered. His autobiography, The Moon Is a Balloon, is one of my absolute favorite books in the world.

Agreed.

Can you tell me what you meant by that?

Yes, I feel my life, or how I am in the world, I'm always really like a nervous Nelly, and I'm always like, oh my God, I said the wrong thing, I did the wrong thing. And then I look at Niven and he's always so quietly self-assured and calm and seemingly said the right thing even when a naked person ran behind him at the Oscars. And I just wish I could be that person and say the right thing and be gracious and effortless and always think of others and everything. Every time you read of an actor who worked with David Niven, they always say, "He was just so gracious to everyone and thought of others all the time." and said the right thing and was calm. And I was like, "God, I wish I could be that person." Yeah.

It's interesting the way that you view him because he is witty and charming and always said the right thing, but also maybe a bit frivolous, maybe a bit—

Frivolous in what sense or with what?

Well, I mean, you know, he was the perfect party guest.

Yes.

And in terms of his acting, he was— a good actor. I wouldn't say a great actor.

I'd agree.

And when I think of your work, I think more of sort of the great Welsh actors, you know, Richard Burton and Anthony Hopkins and the OG Ray Milland. Yeah. You know, who were sort of brooding, dark characters. And so I guess what you're saying is David Niven in life and perhaps others in work?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I would say that I would say Richard Burton is on par with Niven in that sense as to who I would aspire to be, because Burton seemingly, he was the first to kind of be very, very un-Welsh to me, which was arresting and inspiring.

What is un-Welsh?

I think we're a small country who have suffered for being England's neighbor, the small kind of cousin who's always ignored and put into the corner and kind of told what to do by England. And though And therefore, I think there's a great kind of subservience and insecurity, to a degree, nationally. And he was one of the first to kind of really, with this great confidence and hubris, going, "I'm not going to be that. I'll take Hollywood by storm. I will challenge Onassis for the diamond." He was very un-Welsh in his—

Bravado.

Yes. Yeah. And to me, it was like, "Wow, we're allowed to be that." I want to go just back to the David Niven thing.

Yeah. Because you describe being a nervous Nelly. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit? Like, what do you mean?

Well, I think that just stems from the early days of kind of growing up in a school that was heavily into sports and being the only one who wanted to do acting. And then you go to drama college in I went to drama college in London, and then being the kind of the young Welsh person, like, I've always— and now I'm just, you know, another fish out of water in America. I always, I've always felt of slightly not fitting it. I know, and it's the boring actor's cliché. No, I've never fitted in. But, um, and I don't say it's a cross I've had to bear, I'm just saying this is a slight feeling of it. Um, And I've never just, you know, all the stuff that me and my mob always moan about, I've never felt that kind of confidence, that self-assuredness that I always wished I had, which is maybe why we always pretend to be other people.

You fake it pretty well.

In so many ways, not just the acting.

Yeah. I'm interested in this period that you had where you— had early success. You were in a stage play of The Graduate on London's West End, and then you had this period of not being able to find work. In your early parts of your career, did you ever turn anything down because you wanted to have a certain kind of career? Were you being choosy, or were you just not finding the kinds of roles that you wanted?

Oh, no, no. It was never choosy. Especially almost throughout my entire 20s, it was never— It was never a choice I had. I would— it was just— there's only one, there's one job I turned down that I to this day bitterly regret, which was to play Hamlet. And I was 24 and I turned down Hamlet. I know, because I— the— it's feel— it felt— sorry, feel— felt like a mountain I was too young to climb. And I was like, I don't have the emotional maturity to play Hamlet at 24. And now Sadly, the Dane has passed. But yeah, I don't feel, you know, I'll ever get that chance again.

You knew that you didn't have the emotional depth?

Yeah, I remember saying it to my agent at the time. I was like, "I can't play Hamlet now. I don't have that in me. It's— that's— maybe in 5, 6 years, but not now. There's no way I could play it now." And then Ben Whishaw did it at 21.

What do you feel like you have to have inside of you in order to play a role? Like, what are you— I mean, when you were younger, did you feel like there had to be emotional material there for you to sort of be able to channel the person?

Exactly. You know, obviously, Hamlet's going through so much at the time. I just felt I haven't worn enough shirts. I haven't lived a life yet in order to kind of—

And you can't pretend? Isn't that acting? I don't mean to be— to tell you your business.

Oh, believe me how right you are. Yes. And I look back and go, why didn't I just pretend? I think, you know, we do kind of put Hamlet on a plinth and we kind of see it as this Everest that can it be summited, should be summited, because it's there, it should be summited. And it was for me. I was like this, you know, it was just one of those roles.

Do you think it was low self-esteem?

Without question. I think any number of other actors are going, of course I'm going to do it. "and I'll do it well." And I was like, "I can't do that. That's not in me. I can't do it." I bitterly regret that.

You mentioned something. You studied at RADA, which is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London. And that's sort of the highest echelon acting school. What would you say the sort of main difference is between American acting and British acting, or the acting that you— I mean, I have thoughts about this, but the acting that you kind of were brought up in? Because just hearing you say that, that you kind of needed some emotional material to do it, Yeah. I mean, that speaks to a philosophy of acting that I'm wondering what it is exactly.

What do you think that philosophy is? Is it more American?

I would say it's more American.

I agree. I agree. And we were taught by a New York acting teacher at Violet Raja called Doreen Cannon. She was from the kind of royalty of New York acting schools.

So, like method acting?

Stella Adler. Yeah, she'd come through that. So she— Yes, that was her ethos, and that was the way we were taught. It was this great subversive moment in the RADA history where Americans were brought in to teach acting, you know, which kind of— let's reinvent the wheel here.

Yeah. And how did that inform how you learned how to act?

I loved it because also, as much as I was watching Richard Burton, the huge heroes for me were Brando and De Niro and Pacino. So all of a sudden, I felt like I was getting an insight into their world, the way they did it. And I, you know, grew up watching their movies. So all of a sudden, I was like, oh my God, we're getting this. The secrets. So, it was very exciting to me. It was getting away from this idea that it was pretense. It suddenly became very real. And in a way, I suppose, a little more— This is a self-justification of dressing up for a living, but kind of more worthy or noble that if you do it for real, it's not facade, which is a little more humiliating.

Well, there's a lot of debate now because female actors have talked about how this is a— It's a male conceit to be a method actor. That it's because, you know, men men are much more comfortable, you know, navel-gazing, and women have to use their brains in other ways. I mean, what do you think about that sort of debate?

Well, I agree. I agree that it's— the term has become this kind of pariah now for bad behavior. And what I loved about the training we had at college is that they strip the myth from it. They're like, look, it's like a switch. It's like a toolkit. So there's no self-indulgence. There's no kind of being rude to people. There's no doing push-ups before a take. You know, if you're playing Macbeth, you're not going to become the King of Scotland. So it's like, it's giving you a toolkit that you can call upon whenever you need it and when you should need it. But it also makes it a lot more clinical, a lot easier. There's no— you don't stay in character. There's no reason to stay in character between action and cut. That's it.

You don't do it? No, no, no.

We were taught a method, but I'm not— I'm not, I suppose, in the modern term, I would say is a method act. I've never once stayed in character.

You don't go home and speak in an American accent or—

I do sometimes to annoy the kids. And they're like, "Oh, stuff it." Yeah. Or if I order food on the phone, I do an American accent because sometimes you're like, it's just quicker. The kids are like, "Why are you doing that?" Yeah.

All right. I want to talk about your Emmy-nominated roles. First of all, congratulations.

Thank you very much.

19 Emmy nominations for Widow's Bay.

Unbelievable.

It's—

Unbelievable.

Part of what is obviously so unique about the show is this blend of horror and comedy. So, first on the comedy, I saw the casting director recently said about you that no one knew how good you were going to be in a comedy role, which made me wonder why you were cast, by the way. But, you know, they said you'd never really done a role like that before.

No, no.

I mean, did you doubt yourself? Why did you want to try to do comedy? Because you're not known as a comedic actor.

No, and I didn't. I always wanted to kind of give comedy a go. And then the script came in, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is amazing and original and weird and quirky." And I was like, "Is this comedy, or is this the kind of part you're going to play for real?" And then I met with Katie Dippel and Hiro Murai, and Hiro said, "Look, we're not playing this as a comedy. It has to be played as a drama, otherwise it doesn't work. It'll become self-conscious and farcical." you have to play it for real. And I was like, oh, great. And then suddenly, yeah, the pressure was taken away, and I didn't have to think about it being a comedy.

Is that why you steered away from comedy up until now?

No, I just think—

Because I've seen you in roles where you're yourself, right? And you're funny.

Well, thank you very much. I also think I have what they call the Celtic lid. You know, I have slightly hooded eyes like Robert Mitchum. So you don't have a face for comedy. People think you're kind of downtrodden and serious all the time. Like, if I have a brighter eye, I might be I might be better for comedy. But it's not something I've overtly or consciously avoided. I just think, as in so many times with this profession, you can slightly get put into your little category and you stay there.

Right. When you had to go and play the character, did you think, "All right, I have to play this for real"? And by the way, other actors who do do comedy say that you have to play it straight.

Like in any comedy, you have to be completely committed to the bit because if not, Yes, she was self-conscious. Yeah, yeah.

But this is obviously like a fantastical world.

Yes, yes.

And so how do you commit to the bit when you're having to be chased by, you know, killer clowns and horny sea hags?

Almost the same. What was great was— I was gonna say, oh God. Say it. Well, okay, because I hate talking about my process, right?

No, I like it.

Okay. So— So part of the method I was taught is when you approach a project, your character should have a super objective. What is the one thing throughout the whole project he desperately wants? So I thought if I give myself a very strong super objective for this, for each scene then there's a scenic objective that feeds the super objective. So I go, okay, if I— if my super objective is I want my son to flourish, to bloom, to succeed on this island, every action leading into that super objective has to be me going, I have to make this 'Island' succeed. So it gives you this kind of focused zeal when the madness is around you. And that's what helped me kind of— when there's kind of all borderline farcical madness around you, if you have this one driving force in your mind, it tends to— for me personally, it helps me kind of keep me slightly on this path, on this keel that I can stick to. And then it makes the playing of it more real for me, if that makes sense.

It does. You know, it's your motivation, right? So that's—

Yes, I said the M-word. Yes. So that's what I— So that's what I— Okay, thank you. That's what I try and do.

So on the horror front.

Yes.

I want to start with just like a big premise, which is, you know, film and our cultural touchstones say something about us and the moment that we're living in. And I think, you know, when superhero movies were really having their moment, we wanted things to be black and white.

We wanted—

to be saved. We wanted someone to come and sort of make everything okay. And I think what this moment might be telling us is that things aren't what they seem. That there's things happening behind the scenes that are beyond our control and aren't particularly nice either. I mean, why do you think horror is having such a moment? Have you thought about it?

To a degree, but I haven't come up with anything as erudite as that.

But—

but— I would—

Do we just like to be scared? I mean, maybe I'm just giving too much of a thing.

No, no, because I think it's interesting as to why there's this kind of wealth of horror that's doing well. So seemingly, it's kind of more slightly more societal than anything else.

Right.

And I would agree because I would have thought in these times of kind of such turbulence, you would almost want the superheroes more because you just need to believe in that. Kind of universal sense of justice that something or someone ultimately will do the right thing or overcome the bad thing. But it is, it's this, you know, we're in this strange time of kind of constantly being, oh my God, this is terrible.

Shocks to the system.

Yes, that it's the things we're seeing are horrific, but yet seemingly nothing changes or stops. So it makes perfect sense that we'd find it in our fictional entertainment.

Do you think about the cultural moment when you're playing a role like this? Like what it's feeding into, how it might be received in the world?

Well, the big conversations about Widow's Bay was like, "How are they going to take this?" Is like, we were always going by, "Are we going to get this? What is this tone?" When my agent said, "This is horror comedy," I was like, "Whoa, what? No." And then I read it, I was like, "Oh, that's—" It was pretty great. I didn't think it was pretty great. I thought it was fantastic. And I was like, "I know I want to do it, but how is that going to be received? Like, that could be— We could die on our asses with this one." Do you know anything about Series 2?

What's going to happen? Anything about the real mythology that you can tell people who are going to watch this and want to know?

I can tell you wholeheartedly, I know nothing. And I'll say this much, I'm not even sure Katie Dippold knows. Because they've only just gone into the room for Season 2. And I was like, I was texting going, "What happened?" She goes, "I don't know." So, they're gonna sit down for a long time, try and figure it out.

So, this is one of my really big pet peeves as a viewer, which is we have to wait to know if a series is a hit before it gets picked up again. And then there's this long lag time. And by that point, you know, you've kind of forgotten everything about the momentum and the thing that you liked. And you're seeing now all this, reporting about viewer drop-offs, you know, Beef Running Point, Netflix series, because that happens. I mean, isn't there a better way?

There has to be because this new model is crazy. And that's what everyone says is like, "Now we have to wait over a year for the next season." I'm of the same opinion. You watch one season, then you're like, "Wait, what? How long?" Are you worried about losing momentum? Yeah. Yes. I just hope those editors who do, "Previously on Widow's Bay," you know, kind of a great— just before we— We break season 2, reintroducing it, but that's—

it's not the best answer. All right. The Beast in Me was your other big hit this year. You're nominated for an Emmy for that too. You play a super rich mogul who is suspected of killing his wife. Yeah. Have you thought about how much you're playing a character that's hiding something? I was obviously, in advance of this interview, just going through a lot of your work. In The Americans, obviously, you were a Soviet spy pretending to be an American and many other things along the way. Beast in Me, you're a murderer pretending to not be a murderer. Widow's Bay, you clearly know more than you let on about what's happening on the island. Why are you drawn to those particular roles? And why do you keep getting them?

I don't know. That's even more disturbing. I always think when the character has something else going on, it just gives you so much more to play than something slightly shallower or more artificial. It just kind of layers it in a way that other parts can't. You've got so much going on. Sometimes in a way takes you out of the acting, if that makes sense. You're kind of— you're playing so many things, you start, you know, forgetting about the kind of artificiality of it all.

I saw a clip where you were discussing The Beast in Me, and you said, "Menace and rage is where I like to live." And we had a big debate as to whether you were kidding or not. Yeah. Were you? I'm— But I mean, but if you look at your career. I mean, that's not untrue. No, no.

I'm sure the kids will say, "That's where I do live." No, no, I was making a joke.

Because your upbringing seems to have been so happy. Was it? It was. I mean, you've talked about it was stable and fun. You were out, you know, on the farm and you were out on the sea and it just seemed like a lovely kind of time, you don't seem to have some sort of dark origin story. No. And so, I'm wondering where the attraction to darkness comes from.

Right. So, like, those— "It's in the shadows the interest lies." I'm a firm believer of that. It's like, "Oh my God, what's that about? What must be that like?" And the kind of, you know, the rage stuff, you kind of go— I hate to say it. Sometimes I find the rage stuff easy to fake because it's just sort of volume and passion. That's about it. And I think for men, it's this weird little tap you can find quite easily. You know, you can fake that quite easily if you're just kind of passionate and loud enough.

Speaking of those dark and layered roles, I want to ask you about a role you played in the HBO show Girls in 2017. Yeah. I just rewatched it, and it's an episode titled "American Bitch," and you played Chuck Palmer, a famous author who'd been MeToo'd for taking advantage of younger women. And Hannah, played by Lena Dunham, goes to his apartment— just giving the synopsis— after writing about the allegations. And what follows is this incredibly complex performance. And again, you're playing this sort of charismatic, powerful, deeply manipulative person. And you have this intellectual argument with her about the agency of women and what was really going on for you and how you have been misunderstood. And then at the end, you expose yourself to Hannah. Yeah. Physically. Physically, yes. Yeah. Physically. Yeah. The look you give in that scene— At the end? —at the end is really quite something. I mean, it was amazing watching it again. Can you tell me what you remember working on that episode and what you understood about the character then?

Yes. And, you know, Lena was incredible in that she kind of— I hope I'm not speaking out of turn on her behalf, but she kind of explained what had happened to her. So it was drawn from truth. So she gave me the background to this where this kind of piece of fictional writing came from in a very detailed way, which helped enormously. And then, which I've never done before, we rehearsed it almost like a play. We went to the location and rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed, which is utterly luxurious in television where you just— there is no time. So I just remember thinking, "Wow, we have all this time to get this right." right, because it definitely needs to be got right.

Especially at that moment, right? It was the subject of a huge discussion. Yes. Yeah. Did— In that discussion with her, were you trying to honor her memory, or were you trying to be, you know, interpret the character in your own way?

No, more exactly that. Trying to honor exactly what she'd written and kind of— place it in a very real way, but also she was interested in the real discussion of it. That he couldn't just be villainized off the bat. There had to be some kind of true discussion or discourse within this event that kind of leads to it. She wanted the kind of push and pull of both sides for it to land in a very real place that But ultimately, that then would hopefully pay off the ending a lot more.

Yeah. I mean, it did, obviously. But what was that look? What— Because— Because what strikes me seeing it now is that, you know, it was this moment in time where we were just starting to have the conversation about consent and power and abuse. And Lena and the show's creators talked about it, you know, in the after-episode discussion and talked about how they wanted the role to be nuanced. But watching it now, for me, he's just a straight-up bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. And—

But to me, that's what the look is at the end. He goes, "It doesn't matter what we've discussed. Ultimately, this is all I want to do." That all that kind of "discussion" and kind of back and forth is meaningless because once that happens— 'Cause ultimately, that's all he wants.

Yeah. You also got to choose a prosthetic penis in that role.

I actually didn't. I was given the choice.

Right.

And I thought, "I can't choose my own." Because I don't know. I was like, "Somebody else choose it." 'Cause then I can't be judged about my choice.

Is that the strangest prop moment you've had?

Without question. I've never encountered a tray of prosthetic penises before, and the prop master going, "Do you wanna— Would you wanna—" And I was like, "No, you choose. Just something that—" I spoke to Richard, the director, and went, "Why don't you pick what you think will help aid the shot at the end?" KARA] After the break, Rhys and I speak about starting to date his longtime partner, Keri Russell, while co-starring on The Americans. Sometimes when we would argue, I'd bring that into the scene and the director's like, "What is going on? You're meant to be getting on really well." And I was like— and vice versa, you know? So she's far more mature than me.

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I've been playing my HR business partner, which is a fun little way to, like, break the ice if there's something you need from HR.

Okay, we're going to do a weird pivot because I don't know how to, um, get out of prosthetic penises. Yes.

No, it's tricky. Yes.

So I saw a clip of you saying in Welsh, "It's all downhill from here," speaking about your Emmy nominations. And I was wondering if, you know, give me the context. I mean, are the Welsh very pessimistic? Oh my God. You can't just be like, "I'm amazing and this is wonderful." Oh my God.

No, no. And I would attribute this to all the Celtic countries. It's almost like an Olympic sport. To take someone down once they think they're above their station. And, you know, my parents going, well, you know, he thinks, you know, what's my dad always say? God, if he was chocolate, he'd eat himself. You know, or he goes— He says that about you? No, just about anyone who kind of slightly thinks they might be better than everyone else. I just think I do. I really find it like this real Celtic characteristic that all the Celts have, like, that anyone who thinks they're slightly better than the rest, it needs to be lopped at the knees. And I do also think that, especially for the Welsh, we do have a wildly strong sense of pessimism coursing through our veins.

I mean, it seems to be very at odds with the American idea of always be selling. Yes. And in particular yourself. I mean, do you struggle with your own success?

Yeah, I mean, yes and no, because I think what I have this ongoing— I have the parrot keeps saying, "It's all going to fail," right? You know, "It's all going to go downhill." So I have that all the time. And this sounds a perverse name drop, but Tom Hanks' motto is like, "This too shall pass." And he says that about everything. You've been out of work for a long time. This too shall pass. You win 2 Oscars. This too shall pass. And what I remember is after After doing The Graduate with Kathleen Turner, thinking I was just on an ascent, I was like, this is it. And then I was out of work for a long time. And I realized the entire journey is the roller coaster. You're just up and then you're down and then you're up. And so at this point, I know this sounds stupid, but I kind of go, this is just, it's a moment. It's a fantastic moment, but it's a moment.

After The Graduate, you were going to join the military. I tried.

I tried to join the military. And they rejected you. Yeah, because they didn't believe me.

Which is really sad for an actor.

I know, I know.

You couldn't even convince the recruiter.

No, I remember I went in, I met the sergeant, and he's like, "You should come back next week and meet an officer." And I was like, "Okay." Went back for the interview, and this officer was so suspicious of me going, "Why do you want to join the military?" And then, like, 5 days later, I got the letter saying, "Thank you for your interest in the British Army, but..." And it is sort of amazing that that officer was like, They're like, "There's something not right about this kid." They're like, "I don't believe him." Back to that Welsh pessimism.

Yeah. I mean, what do you think the biggest culture clash is between your American living self and your sort of Welsh self?

I always admire— to me, the Americans have such confidence. But what I find in New York that I do sometimes is I fake this confidence because there's this kind of— some say it's aggressive. I find it more confident because they're like, There's like this, and it's an honesty too that like you see it. It's like subway justice. Do you know sometimes when you get those people and it's not necessarily just men, women go, hey, you can't sit there, like, or like, you know, give up the chair or like what? I remember going, oh my God, people are like this. They're not just like those bit parts in movies about New York. The people are like this. And I found it liberating.

And I like— Do your kids have Do they have that American confidence?

To a degree, yeah. Far more so than I did as a kid of their age.

Hmm. All right. You told The Guardian in 2014 that the most important thing to you was the survival of the Welsh language. Probably was then, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, still is. And I, you know, I grew up in the '80s when the language itself was threatened. And, you know, I remember the protest marches and the kind of, you know, trying to get a language bill and a language act and trying to, you know, one of the oldest languages in Europe, you couldn't open a bank account in the Welsh language. There was— it had no status.

I don't think I truly understand sort of the history of how the Welsh language and Wales in particular was subsumed under sort of British culture.

Yes. English. Yes.

English.

Yes. They're like, if we strip a nation of its language, we'll, you know, we can dominate. And that's what they did. They tried to eradicate the language. But I think as a result of that, What it did was create a fire in the Welsh to say, you absolutely will not kill this language. And they fought it for hundreds of years. There was my grandmother's generation was the generation where they used to have the— wear the piece of wood around their neck saying they wouldn't speak Welsh, you know, otherwise it was called the Welsh knot. And this is— the English did well. They would turn communities on each other. So a child hearing another child speaking Welsh was allowed to put the piece of wood around their neck and then that child at the end of the day would be flogged. So, this is how they kind of did it. So, there was a zeal to my parents going, "This language will not die. It will never die, and we'll make sure it doesn't." Hmm.

You've talked about one of the reasons you find doing the American accent easy, but the British— the English accent hard— Yeah. —is because of that colonial baggage.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's when I feel— I feel the most fake when I have to do a Southern English accent, when I have to get the Received Pronunciation, RP. That's when I feel like, oh, I just feel fake. Fake and also distasteful. Yes, I just sit— because we used to grow— we grew up in our house mimicking that language in a derogatory way, going, oh yes, darling, do pass the cucumber sandwiches, you know. So, so it— the connotation of it It was wildly negative.

Hmm. You're voicing Han Solo in the first ever Welsh dub of Star Wars. Yeah. I mean, amazing. Yeah. Have you already done it?

Yes. Yeah. Okay.

So please, please do a scene for me. Absolutely say something in Welsh where you're playing Han Solo.

Oh my God. What was weird is obviously they'd had to translate all these you know, things that we'd grown up with knowing Star Wars. And then I was saying it in Welsh and it was kind of like "pella der carchi." You kind of go, you know, it kind of— What is that? It's kind of like tractor beam. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. There were words I've never used before and I was tripping on them going, I can't even say it. And at the same time, it was this wildly familiar thing that I got to do. I mean, it was so surreal. The whole thing was surreal. And then also, you kind of go, I can't voice Harrison Ford. It's like—

Did you talk to him about that?

No, I'm too scared. But in the same vein, you know, I was so glad. This is what I would have wanted growing up as a young Welsh kid is to is to have these things that would be commonplace, like, "Yeah, we'll translate Star Wars into Welsh." So, it buoyed me enormously to kind of go, "Right, so there's going to be a generation of kids who'll watch Star Wars in Welsh." Amazing.

I want to talk about Keri Russell. She's your partner. Thank God. You first worked together in The Americans, which is just one of my all-time favorite shows. What is it like to fall in love with your co-star?

I remember at the time going, "Oh, no." Because— I wouldn't advise it. You know, and back in my 20s, I'd done it, and it had ended disastrously, and usually doesn't do the job any favors. And I kind of went, "I'm never doing that again." And then kind of in my mid-30s, The Americans happens, and I was like, "Oh, no, this is happening again." Do you question it?

Because, you know, obviously you're playing a romantic partner.

So you're going, "Hang on, let's be very serious about this." And, you know, Carrie had two kids, and it wasn't something I was going to enter into lightly. And then sometimes you can't fight it, you know? It's ordained. It was going to happen, and it did.

I'm curious about this also because just when you are on this long-running series, and you're working with someone, and you're romantically involved with someone, you know, usually our personal worlds and our work worlds are separate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, is there anything tricky about having that merge? Wildly tricky.

Because, you know, by the end of The Americans, she was pregnant with our child. And I was trying to direct her pregnant. But yeah, I'm not good enough or mature enough mature enough to kind of— because sometimes when we would argue, I'd bring that into the scene, and the director's like, "What is going on? You're meant to be getting on really well." I was like, um, and vice versa, you know. So she's far more mature than me, as, um, so yeah, I found that hard. I really did. I struggled with it.

Yeah. Would you work together again? Without question.

100%. I'm always saying, but I want to do something like Heart to Heart or Moonlighting, something like that. Although she'd probably want to be Bruce Willis.

Are you competitive with her? Because my husband's a journalist and I'm— he's not competitive with me, but I'm very competitive with him.

Brilliant. Brilliant. No, no. And I know I'm genuinely trying to think that through properly. No. And I think we're two very different people. We have two very different attitudes towards Acting as well. She has, I think, quite a complicated relationship with acting in that she kind of goes, "Oh, well, I'm not—" She always goes, "Oh, Matthew's trained." I'm like, "It makes no difference." It's like someone having gone to Harvard and someone being successful and someone being a journeyman and being equally successful. Right. And it's just either you can do it or you can't, or you're you'll succeed or you won't, there's no— by that point, has no bearing. What makes her a great actor in your view? I just believe her always. Like, I'm always there 100% with her. She can't— she, in a way, she always says she can't fake it. So you're 100% invested on the ride then. And that to me is the kind of almost all of it for acting with me. If I believe it, then I'm off. I'm with you. It doesn't matter where we go. And I always believe her.

How do you both organize your lives? I feel like men don't get asked this enough, which is why I'm asking you, in the sense we always ask women, "How are they organizing their life?" And I'm just— I'm wondering, actually, as both actors, she's in the middle of The Diplomat, and that's, you know, an ongoing series. Yeah. Thank God. Yes, yes. How do you organize parenting and acting and all of that stuff with children?

Oh, it's like a circus. We both have Moleskine planners. We don't do the calendar thing. Oh, no. Yeah. So we sit down with little nubs of pencils. That's how we do it. But it is one of the hardest elements of, you know, the circus life. And I keep making the joke. I'm like, we're just saving money for the kids' therapy when they're older. Like, they were never around. So it's hard. It's hard. It's plate spinning.

Have you ever turned something down so that Carey could do it or vice versa?

The one rule we kind of have, if there's a project comes along, we're like, I can't turn this down. Then we make it work, whatever it is. There are some— there have been projects whereby clearly a very quite impressive woman. She'd go, "Listen, this film is shooting. These are the dates. This is the cast. This is the director." I go, "I don't want to read it. Just turn it down." Yeah. Because I'd rather not read it and go, "Oh my God." But I know, like, she's in the middle of Diplomat. I can't do it. So don't send it to me. I've done that a couple of times.

But that's— I mean, that's—

yeah, she's done, she's done the same too. So, you know, it's, it's equal in that sense.

She's also nominated for, um, The Diplomat. You're this real Emmy power couple this year.

Uh, yeah, yeah, Emmy power couple.

Emmy power couple.

That's going to be on your plaque. Yes, EPC.

EPC. I mean, do you talk about it and have you gamed out the different scenarios? Because, you know, you You won for the Americans. She didn't. She's been nominated 8 times. I know. And has not won. I know. I know. I mean, do you talk about like, she wins, you lose, you lose, she wins? What are our faces going to do when they pan to us immediately?

I always make jokes. Like I say, if you don't win this time, I'm going to go, "For fuck's sake." She's like, "Don't do that." I mean, Jay-Z does it for Beyoncé.

Right. I mean, there could be a thing.

Right. I should start a thing going, Jesus fucking Christ. Like, if she doesn't win. No, we don't really talk about that. We talk about more the logistics of the night and which party you're going to go to after.

Would you rather she wins than you?

100%. 100%.

Okay. I saw Samantha Morton say recently she hasn't worked at all since doing The Odyssey. Wow. Yeah. And it reminded me of what we've just talked about, which is, you know, those times in your life where you've had these fallow periods where, you know, you've had to sort of take the Tom Hanks view of like, "This is a moment, and it too shall pass." And you have to take the long view of your career. Has this moment right now where, you know, nominated for 2 Emmys, really have the hot show of the summer where everyone's talking about it, In a Emmy power couple.

The old EPC. Yeah.

Have you finally, do you think, cemented your status with this, though? Do you finally feel safe?

Yes and no. I know, terrible answer. I find myself at moments going, "Maybe I can relax." And then you kind of go, "Oh, that's the death knell if you do." Do you know what I mean?

And you've—

I've just been through it. I've been through the up and down so much. I kind of go, I'm never quite comfortable. And in a way, I think it gives you something. It keeps you a bit, a little bit hungry. What are you hungry for now? Movies to me is still the kind of the grail because we grew up watching big Hollywood movies. And I was like, oh, movies, you know what I mean? They still have that allure. The Oscars still have the allure to me because you kind of go, that's another echelon. You always think, especially with the awards, you think it'll fulfill some gaping hole that's been in you the entire life. And you go, if I just win an award, it'll fulfill everything. And it does nothing. The kind of drive or the what you're— that whatever hole you're trying to fill is still very much at the center of your gut.

Is that why you continue to audition? I mean, you auditioned for a role and you didn't get it. You really wanted to be in the Bob Dylan biopic. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, is that what drives the need to go and kind of still do that at this stage?

Yes. Yeah. And I thought— and also, you can't— like, if you want something, get after it, go and do it. You know, prove to them you can do it. I still— I still have that. I was kind of relieved that I still had that hunger to go and go, "I'll audition." I'm not, you know, I'll go, "Yeah, of course I will." But you didn't get it.

How do you deal with rejection at this stage in your career?

It's when they say— I was like, "Who got it?" And they went, "Ed Norton." I was like, "Oh, okay." No, but terrible. It was like I'd had an audition for a little bit and I didn't get it. I felt crappy because it reminds you of everything you used to do. You used to make yourself vulnerable, you give yourself all this hope, and then you'd be knocked down. It was good. I was kind of— it enlivened me again. It kind of gave me a— I remember the hunger of your 20s when you're like, I'm going to get that part. All right, last question. Geography.

Exactly. Yes. Tell me about it. Scotland, Finland. Yeah. No. You talked about having this super objective, right, in your work. And it serves your motivation no matter what you're doing. And I'm wondering what your super objective is in life.

Yeah, well, I mean, we touched on it because you keep thinking, "If I just do this, I'll feel satisfied. If I just— if I win an award, I'll feel—" How superficial. "I'll feel—" Validated. Yes. "And I'll fulfill something in myself." And I think ultimately, it's to do a part where I can look back and I go, "I'm satisfied with that." That's what What keeps you moving forward is like, okay, when am I going to do one part that I look at and go, I did it?

Your Hamlet.

Yes, my Hamlet at 79 years of age.

And is there a super objective in terms of the way you live your life?

Harking back to your first question about David Niven, I want to get to a place where I just feel confident I'm just kind of— I'm not faking that. I'm not faking the kind of, oh, I'm, you know, I'm happily confident, but I genuinely feel calm and confident in myself. When will that come?

Matthew Rhys, I wish it on all of us. I don't think that you're alone in that particular struggle. True, true.

Yes, let us all that sail that good ship until we find it.

Until we find it. Thank you so much. Thank you for this invite. And I've greatly enjoyed it.

Likewise.

That's actor Matthew Rhys. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orem. It was edited by Alison Benedict, mixing by Sophia Landman, Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baetju, and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Seth Kelley, Paula Newdorf, Joe Bill Muñoz, Eddie Costas, Amy Marino, Mark Zemmel, David Herr, Gaby Contreras, Kathleen O'Brien, and Brooke Minters. Next week, David talks with conflict resolution expert Priya Parker. In so many circles, in so many churches, in so many families, we believe that conflict is close to sin, right? It's immoral. And so in families, just literally shifting the belief that all conflict is wrong to actually saying the conversations we're not having is preventing us from deeper connection as a family can be a radical shift. I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York This week on The Wirecutter Show. It's really tempting to shop online, but there is no replacement for shopping in person, especially for sofas. It's so hard to shop online. We're talking all about sofas, how to buy one that will last and that you'll actually like.

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