Transcript of The Battle Over Black Representation in the South New

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. This year has presented arguably the biggest challenge to political representation for Black Americans in decades, from major court decisions to partisan gerrymandering. And nowhere has this been felt more than in the South. And so today, my colleague Emily Cochran explains the implications for voters across the region, not just in the midterms, but for years to come. It's Friday, October 23rd. Emily Cochran, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

So, Emily, you cover the South for The New York Times. And just to say, that is an enormous region for one person to report on.

I share it with 2 other people, for the record. But yes, it's 8 states. I spend a lot of time on the road going back and forth from place to place. One of the best parts of the job.

Yeah, I'm sure you've logged a ton of miles in the lead-up to this year's midterms. And that's because, of course, you've been really focused on 2 major impacts to voting this election cycle. One is the Supreme Court decision on the Voting Rights Act, which we've talked about on the show. And the second is the redistricting battle that we've seen happen in a bunch of states, which we've also talked about. And very specifically, you have been looking at how the combination of those 2 things has really affected Black voters in the South.

Exactly. I mean, those 2 things really led to the start of what could be a huge political transformation for the South. So this November election is the first time we're gonna get a glimpse of what the new landscape is.

So I wanna just kind of remind people what we're talking about here. And let's start with the Voting Rights Act. Can you just give us kind of a brief thumbnail 101, reminding us what it was, what it was supposed to do, and what specifically changed this year.

So the Voting Rights Act of 1965 is one of the crown jewels of the civil rights movement. It was a landmark bill that outlawed some of the Jim Crow-era voter suppression tactics, poll taxes, all these barriers that were preventing Black Americans in the South from easy access to the polls. And it also put in some requirements for state governments to give give Black voters the opportunity to elect a representative of their choice.

Mm-hmm.

That's everything from the congressional level down to your local school board. And over the last 60 years or so, you can see how that has completely transformed the ability of Black voters across the South to participate in the political process.

Mm-hmm.

As recently as 2 years ago, a decision tied to the Voting Rights Act led Alabama to send 2 Black representatives to Congress at the same time for the first time in its history.

But obviously things began to change. So tell us a little bit about when that started.

Over the last few years, there are people, predominantly conservatives in the South, who feel that the parameters of the Voting Rights Act were too restrictive. That was necessary in the 1960s. It's not necessary today. And frankly, there's a political component too. voting in the South is still fairly racially polarized. So historically, Black voters have supported Democrats. And so when you have Republican supermajorities in the state legislatures across the South, the VRA has been something that has stayed in the way of them being able to maximize their political power in states that are overall conservative. And so Republicans have tried to methodically chip away at the Voting Rights Act, mainly by making court challenges and getting these cases in front of the Supreme Court. Court, which has been increasingly inclined to rule in favor of those efforts. That effort really culminated this year in late April with a Supreme Court ruling in Louisiana v. Calais.

And just remind us, what did that decision say exactly?

So before this ruling, advocates and organizers would force challenges to congressional maps, saying that under the Voting Rights Act, the power of Black voters in one state or another had been illegally diluted, and they needed to draw districts that gave them that power back. But with this decision earlier this year, it's a lot harder to make that case to prove intentional discrimination under the Act.

Okay, so how does that ruling intersect with this mid-decade redistricting that we saw all over the country this last year?

It essentially opens a new front in that back and forth that wasn't accessible before because it weakens this key remaining tenet of the Voting Rights Act that had insulated this handful of majority-Black Democratic-held districts from being redrawn, those districts were now fair game for Republican legislators in the South. And those lawmakers quickly got to work to see how they could take advantage of that.

So Emily, just talk about that a little bit more in terms of these Republican states that you've been paying attention to. What were they able to do after the VRA ruling that they were not already in the process of doing or able to do?

So right away, we see a number of Southern states start trying to redraw their maps. Louisiana, it's at the center of the Supreme Court ruling. It has 2 majority-Black districts held by Democrats. They redraw their maps so there's only one remaining majority-Black district. Alabama implements a new map where One of their 2 Black representatives is suddenly much more at risk of losing his seat. And then there's Tennessee, where there's only one majority Black seat, one seat held by a Democrat, and Republicans quickly carve that up to make it more in their favor.

So are we just talking about a state not having any Democratic representatives all of a sudden? Is that what this boils down to?

That's right. Tennessee is really where you can see the mechanics of how the VRA was working in practice and how how the Supreme Court decision changed it. The reason that one district in Tennessee was a Democratic-held district was because Memphis, a majority Black city, a city where those voters routinely elect Democrats, they had the power and the overwhelming influence in choosing their representative. But when the Supreme Court decision came down, the Tennessee General Assembly really quickly called a special session. It lasted for a matter of days, and they carved up that one district, and they carved up the city of Memphis to pair these now smaller blocks of Black voters with more rural white areas and turned this Democratic stronghold into 3 districts that went for President Trump by double digits in 2024.

Hmm.

And now when I talk to voters and organizers in Memphis, there's a lot of questions about what this means for the priorities in their city and how those will be weighed In a new district where it's not just Memphis, it's Memphis and other communities that have different interests and different needs.

Okay, so as we mentioned, you have been crisscrossing the South trying to understand how people are reacting to some of these changes. And I'm wondering if you could give us a snapshot of what you've heard.

Well, among Republicans, its enthusiasm.

Sure.

I was at an event for one of the new Memphis seats this week, and Republicans gave raucous applause for the idea of getting this 9th congressional seat. But then you look to Democratic voters, especially the majority of Black voters who make up their base in the South, and it's a totally different group of emotions. It's confusion, it's anger, it's frustration, and frankly, there's some apathy among prospective voters who already feel pretty disconnected from the government, who already felt that their vote wasn't going to make a difference and didn't matter.

Mm-hmm.

But in the face of that apathy or the fear of that apathy, you're also seeing some activists and organizers see an opportunity that this is one more reason to energize Black voters and get them out to vote.

Is there any evidence? Is there a precedent that these maps are galvanizing as an issue to drive turnout?

I think it is complicated to say, especially when voters are clearly very frustrated and angry about a whole other lot of factors as they go into the midterms. And when the idea of redistricting after the Supreme Court decision came up, we actually saw it go both ways. In Alabama, Louisiana, and Tennessee, there was quite a bit of pushback in those states, and lawmakers pushed it through anyways, saying that, yeah, we're following what the Supreme Court said in their ruling, and it was the majority's decision. But it's also worth noting that in 2 other Southern states, South Carolina and Georgia, they initially thought about redrawing their maps and then ultimately didn't before the midterms. At the time, South Carolina was starting its primaries. There was a big turnout. And then in Georgia, Hundreds and hundreds of activists and organizers flooded the state Capitol. And the organizers will tell you that they think that played a factor in why the redistricting ultimately was held off.

Wow.

Okay.

So in those 2 states, at least, this issue, it was so polarizing that advocates for redrawing the maps actually retreated from those positions ahead of the elections.

For now, yes, they did. And actually, in another southern state, Mississippi, we're seeing the beginning of that fight play out now. State lawmakers are considering redrawing not only the congressional map, but the state House and the state Senate maps. And you're watching activists try to mobilize voters against it. There's a really live question right now about how Mississippi will handle this and what they will do with their maps. And so we went there to see how that fight is playing out in real time. We'll be right back.

Okay, so Emily, now that you are back from your reporting trips to Mississippi, tell us what you saw on the ground and how this tension is playing out over redistricting.

I think A lot of the voters in Mississippi have been paying attention to what's happening in other states. And I think it's worth taking a step back and just looking at the state of Mississippi more broadly.

Okay.

It has one of the largest Black populations in the entire country. Roughly 40% of the population is Black. An overwhelming majority of them vote for Democrats. And obviously, this is one of the states with one of the most painful, fraught histories of racism and segregation, which is still pretty intertwined with a lot of the issues and debates that you see ongoing in Mississippi. When you look at the congressional map, there's one majority Black district. And I think listeners will recognize the man who's held that seat for 3 decades, Bennie Thompson. He's probably most known for his work on committee that investigated the January 6th riots at the Capitol. But for Mississippi, Bennie Thompson is a homegrown icon who has risen through the ranks partially because of the opportunities afforded by the Voting Rights Act, climbed his way from one of the poorest regions of the country to one of the most senior and most powerful Democrats in the House. But now there's an open question of whether or not he will be able to continue to hold on to his seat as the Republican majority debates redrawing their congressional maps and most likely trying to carve it up to give them a new conservative advantage in that seat, similar to what happened in Tennessee, setting up a scenario where they could have an entirely conservative congressional delegation.

Okay.

So that is what is at stake here, right? The state with the highest share of Black voters in the entire country who overwhelmingly vote Democratic, suddenly they're looking at a prospect of having no Democratic representatives. How are people on the ground responding to this if state lawmakers move ahead?

So state lawmakers held a series of hearings across the state to have people weigh in on whether or not they should redraw these maps. And for activists and organizers, this was a key opportunity to get people out, to energize voters, and to remind them not just about the upcoming election and the stakes of this issue, but to remind them of the power of their vote and how that power might change if these maps change. The last of these hearings was held just a couple weeks ago in the state Capitol of Jackson. And Daily producer Anna Foley was there to document what many people saw as this Okay, can everyone hear me?

Let's get started. It's gonna be, uh, we're gonna be here a while, looks like.

So the room was packed. They actually needed overflow seating for this hearing where speakers were blaring the hearing into the lobby.

Thank you for coming. This is a very important meeting, and, and, uh, we're here to listen and to learn.

Now, when these hearings start, the lawmakers who are there are very clear that they're there to listen. They haven't made a decision yet.

All right, so are we ready?

And they actually don't really speak for the rest of the hearing.

Let's get it started.

And instead, they hand it over to all these people who have come out to speak out either for or against redrawing the maps.

First is our state auditor.

This time, the first person up was the state auditor, actually.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for—

A man named Shad White, a hardline conservative who seems to be considering a run for governor in the near future.

I just wanted to encourage you to, at some point in the near future, take up congressional redistricting.

And he was very clear that he was in favor of redrawing the map.

I travel all over the state, but I travel a ton in the Delta too. And I will just tell you this, the Delta has been at the bottom of far too many rankings for far too long, and the Delta deserves better leadership than Bennie Thompson. It just does.

He talked about how Congressman Thompson, who's been in office for 3 decades, hadn't done enough to support the Delta because some of its problems have persisted over that tenure.

The Delta deserves a congressman who is going to deliver for them. And look, look, that's fine. You can, you can boo if you want. That's, that's totally fine.

But I'll just tell you, for him, that was a sign that Congressman Thompson wasn't doing enough. And he hasn't really faced any competition from the Republican Party because of how much that district reliably elects Democrats. My name is Karen Mosley, and I'm a registered voter in Simpson County. And he wasn't alone in saying that the current maps were not fair.

It's unconstitutional to gerrymander district lines to ensure a particular race is voted into office.

You heard a lot of the arguments that we heard in Alabama, Louisiana, and Tennessee. A good candidate is a good candidate. That so many years after the civil rights movement, you don't need to take race into account anymore, that it should just be that a good qualified candidate wins the support of enough voters and they're elected. As an American citizen, I expect to be treated equal to my fellow citizens, fair without prejudice, and that means colorblind to all and no tolerated classes among its citizens. But that's not what a majority of this crowd was saying.

Good evening. My name is Jesse Otto Smith.

It was a lot more emotional for many of these people.

My great-grandfather was born as an enslaved man, considered less than a human in 1861. He couldn't vote. He was a piece of property.

Including a man named Jesse Otto Smith.

My father was born in 1926. He couldn't vote.

He talked about how it took his family generations to get access to voting and then see some progress as a result of that vote.

That's why I am here.

This hearing, like many of the ones before it, was filled with these personal stories like Mr. Smith's.

My father went around registering people to vote. And yes, our house got shot at. But here I am now. 69 years old, standing up here fighting the same darn fight that my daddy fought.

Because they were talking about how much the vote meant to them, how much it meant to their families, and what their families endured and experienced in Mississippi, stretching back to the civil rights era and before then.

But I say to you all, the Supreme Court did not order Mississippi to draw any new maps. Not one single line. So what's the rush?

There was a real anger at how quickly Republicans had moved to respond to the Supreme Court decision to enact what they said was a partisan power grab.

Where was that speed when hospitals closed in the Delta? Where was that speed when families in Greenville told me they couldn't flush their toilets when it rains? Where is that speed on Medicaid expansion?

There are other issues in Mississippi when it comes to access to healthcare, access to food, access to job opportunities. And to some of the people in the crowd, it seemed that Republicans moved far faster to address a Supreme Court decision that could benefit their political power rather than enact policies that could benefit the voters of those communities and of those districts.

Because there's no constitutional recourse for this. There's only one reason that we are discussing redistricting, and we all know what it is.

It's been trumped up. Something that stood out about this hearing in particular was the number of young people who showed up. Good evening, everyone. My name is Madison Fairley, and I am a college student.

I am an honors sophomore at Jackson State University. I'm a freshman political science major hailing from the illustrious Tougaloo College.

There have been a lot of questions about whether young voters would understand the stakes, would even want to get engaged in something like this. And for organizers, if they're going to have as many people as possible angry and riled up and willing to protest over these maps, you need to have the younger and newer generations engaged in that fight. I am here standing in front of you today because my great-grandparents were sharecroppers on this land and didn't even have a percentage of the rights that I have today as a Black woman in Mississippi, let alone America.

History will go down to show that we care about our rights, we care about politics, we care about our vote. We will not stop here. Our elders are the ones who continue to urge us younger people to keep going, and we will do that.

There was a real note of defiance in a lot of these comments where these younger voters seemed to be telling their lawmakers, even if you go forward with these new maps, we're not gonna go anywhere.

So here we are.

We stand today before the committee who has to make the decision on redrawing the lines that seek to disenfranchise the people.

So I want you to know that even though tonight you have the position, we hold the power. We will not cease. We will not back down, and we will not give up.

Thank you.

Thank you for your comment.

At the end of the hearing, after almost 3 hours of testimony—

And this meeting is adjourned.

One of the key questions that still remains is where does all of this energy, especially from the younger voters, go? Can I pull you aside for a couple questions? And Anna ended up talking to someone about this, an older gentleman named Carroll Rhodes.

Mississippi, in the Mississippi Delta, doing poll watching.

He talked about how he had organized and protested during the civil rights movement.

To me, it's not a good feeling in the sense that during my lifetime, I have seen the Voting Rights Act come to life and die.

And so he saw parallels between then and now.

Because I can tell you that What the Supreme Court did has been to energize Black voters, especially a lot of young Black voters. You heard a lot of these young Blacks here speaking today. Blacks are now angry. They're angry that the progress we've made, that have been made, is now being turned back. And so that's going to energize people. We were the young people in the '60s. And we were active. These young people now are going to be active. There's an old Southern saying, they let sleeping dogs lie. This is one of those times they should have let sleeping dogs lie, but they didn't. They kicked the dog.

You know, if the goal of organizers was to energize people enough to come out, express their frustration, it sounds like from what we just heard, that really seems to have worked, at least to some degree, which makes me sort of wonder if we have any sense of which side is gonna win out here. Like, I know we can't predict the future, of course, but do we have any indication about whether voters and organizers have convinced Mississippi lawmakers just not to move forward with redrawing these maps?

The short answer is probably not, because Republicans are likely to still have a majority. Once the midterms are done, there's a lot more time for lawmakers to come back, gin up support, and try to push through new district lines, whether it's in the statehouse, the state Senate, or at the congressional level.

So then where does that leave things then? Because I have to imagine there will be so many disappointed people, so many disillusioned voters. And I'm kind of reminded of what you said earlier about how there's a real fear in places where this has happened already that this is just gonna create apathy around voting.

Yeah, that certainly is a fear, that people who are already disillusioned with their government, feeling like their votes didn't matter, that this is just one more reason why it's not worth participating. But some of the activists and some of the organizers I've spoken to think there could be a different outcome. And frankly, there is hope, especially among Democrats, that this becomes a broader, more engaged coalition of voters in Mississippi that turns out to vote more reliably and more consistently. And in terms of the November elections, there's a potential test case for that in Mississippi. There's a Senate race there that's become closer than I think some people would expect it in, again, a very reliably conservative state.

Hmm.

You've got this district attorney, Scott Colom, who would be the first Black senator from Mississippi since the post-Civil War Reconstruction era. And he's making that connection, trying to tap into the frustration around the maps, and on top of his broader political message on a lot of the issues that are affecting voters in Mississippi— healthcare, inflation, food insecurity. And voting rights is just one more part of his message that he's hoping could resonate We're seeing in these last couple weeks millions of national dollars pour into the state. You're seeing high-profile surrogates in both parties come out. And to be clear, it is still seen as a seat that likely remains Republican. But in this political environment, when voters are upset about so many things, some in his campaign are hoping that the fight over the maps is just one more thing that could inject enthusiasm and determination. For people to come out and vote for him and vote for something different.

Emily, if we wanted to understand the South more broadly, you said earlier that a couple states backed down from redrawing their maps, but generally speaking, it sounds like many Southern states have either already done so or they're sort of in the process of doing this. And so therefore, I wonder what lessons we can draw from the fights that have already played out and what they sort of might reveal to us about the future.

I think it's certainly worth noting that just because South Carolina and Georgia didn't redraw their congressional maps before the midterm elections, it doesn't mean that they won't try to do so again. This could reverberate far beyond the midterms, and it's possible that almost every state in the South ends up at least trying to redraw their maps to carve up these majority Black districts and effectively draw out Democratic representation. Voters in those states are going to continue grappling with how do you exert political power now? And turnout right now, particularly Black turnout, is up in these first couple days of early voting in some states across the South. We're seeing highly motivated voters, but how does that stack up against these new maps? But what's undoubtedly true is that for many voters, the reality on the ground has already changed with these new congressional maps. And so when those voters go to the ballot box this year, they will provide us a first glimpse into what this political landscape might look like across the South. And what challenges and changes might exist for Black representation for years, for decades, maybe a generation to come.

Emily Cochran, Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

On Thursday night, the Senate candidate Scott Colon was joined on the campaign trail by former Vice President Kamala Harris.

Mississippi matters!

Mississippi matters!

Mississippi matters!

She's one of a string of big names showing up in the final stretch of the race.

That these people up there in Washington are trying to make you feel powerless. They're trying to make you feel alone.

They're trying to make you feel like you don't have somebody.

You have Scott! The Republican incumbent, Cindy Hyde-Smith, is also getting help, with President Trump joining her for a rally in Mississippi on Monday. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. The Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into Corey Lewandowski, the former adviser to the Department of Homeland Security and one-time campaign manager for President Trump, according to officials with knowledge of the situation. It was a rare The officials say the inquiry was looking into accusations that Lewandowski personally profited from his role at DHS. Through his lawyer, Lewandowski denied any wrongdoing. And in New York, the City Council on Thursday voted to ban horse-drawn carriages from Central Park, a key step in bringing a tradition that dates back to the 1800s to a close. Mayor Mamdani supports the ban, which would go into effect in 2 years, which gives the city time to figure out how to help everybody who works in the industry, including the 180 horses. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley, Olivia Natt, Shannon Lin, and had help from Lexi Dio. It was edited by Rachael Quester and Tricia Willens. It was fact-checked by Andrea Lopez-Cruzado. And contains music by Roman Nemisto, Elisheba Ittoob, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

Our theme music is by Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you on Sunday.