Transcript of Sunday Special: TV's Big Night

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Find out more at nytimes. Com/yourworld. Welcome, everyone, to the Daily Sunday Special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, the editor of the New York Times Book Review. Every week here, you'll find us talking about movies, books, the arts, just all sorts of culture. Today, we're talking about TV. The Emmy Awards are tonight, the biggest night in television, marking the best shows released between June first, 2024 and May 31st, 2025. They've made it very simple. It's not at all confusing. Here in New York, a group of us has gathered to talk about some of the nominated shows that just keep rattling around in our brains. We're going to be talking about some of those shows in-depth. If we get to something that you don't want spoiled, you're in the middle of the season, just jump ahead a few minutes and all will be well. Here with me is Jason Zitiman, a critic who writes about comedy for the Times. Hello, Jason. Hello.

Good to be here.

Also, Alexis Solosky, one of our culture reporters. Hello, Alexis. Hi. Hi. All right, there's a conceit here, and I'm hoping that you can come along with me. You have to use your imagination. So picture the three of us sitting together on a sofa. It was really relaxed. Potato chips and soda. And I'm just flipping through channels. We're looking at TV. I'm going to stop on a show, and then we're going to talk about that show for a few minutes, and then we're going to change the channel.

Tv roulette.

Yes. Can you imagine that? Yes. This is audio. It's the theater of the mind. You got it? I'm on board. Excellent. Okay, so I am going to pick up this not at all metaphorical remote. It's actually a real remote. That's old school. It is. I think we should just get started and flip to our first show.

I am the one who knocks.

Welcome to the Pit.

We got two traumas from the tea.

Five minutes out. Okay, copy that. Actually, this is the most important person that you're going to meet today. This is Dana. She's our charge nurse. She is the wing leader of our circus. Do what she says when she says it. First up is The Pit. This is a medical drama. That was a bit of a sensation this year. It streamed on HBO Max. It's set in an emergency room in a hospital in Pittsburgh, hence the name of the show. It follows a veteran doctor named Dr. Robbie, played by Noah Wiley, who you just heard in that clip, and the residents and interns around him. I had not watched a hospital show in years. Really enjoyed this one. Alexis, I I know you watched and enjoyed this one, too.

I did. I didn't at first because I thought, Oh, I don't like hospital shows. I don't need hospital shows. I find them stressful. I find them melod dramatic. Then I started watching this one, and it was sinking into a warm bath of competence. These people are so good at what they do, and watching them be good at what they do, it's my ASMR. It sooths me.

I I agree with everything you just said. I possibly have not watched a medical show intensely since ER, and there's weirdness around this. Michael Crichton essentially created ER, and Michael Crichton's widow said, This just feels like a reboot of ER. It has one of the main producers, John Wells. It has one of the main stars, Noah Wiley. What are you guys doing?

This is a real thesiaship situation.

It's fraught, and the courts will work it out. But the competence is It's real. There's something about the time we are living in, in which it is soothing, even though the show is intensely stressful. Just watch people be good. It's like, I wish I was as good at anything I do in my life as these people are at what they do.

When people come in with problems, they diagnose them. They find out what's wrong, and then they treat it.

It's the deal. Are you saying this is how medicine should work? Yes.

Wouldn't that be He's amazing.

What did you think about Noah Wiley, who I guess I forgot how wonderful a screen presence he is?

He is. I think that when he was on ER, he was so young and he looked so young that I didn't find him as compelling. But a Noah Wiley with some miles on him, with some lines on his face.

That gray in his beard.

I can't get enough straight into my veins. I love it.

Dr. Robbie, which is the name again of his character, is my guy. I cannot wait until season 2, which is starting in January. Jason, you didn't dip into this.

No, I've never seen this show. Hearing you talk about it makes me curious. Does it always end the same way? In what way? Does it always end with the problem being solved?

No, it's not procedural. Storylines will go through several episodes, but it is one 15-hour shift, and there is a particular crisis. You were like, Oh, I did They don't need a crisis. There was crisis enough already in this overcrowded, understaffed emergency room. But there is a crisis, and they handle it. They handle it the best they can. Also, charge your nurse, Dana, how much better would all of our lives be if Charge Nurse Dana told us what to do, and we did it? I think it would be very good. Listen up. Central 789 is now the blood donor center. Anyone just O-Neg or O-Paws, we need you to donate now. Hands where I can see him. She's very good at her job.

You think everyone needs a Dana in their lives?

Charge Nurse Dana.

I can see the fantasy of it because it's hard to think of an experience with the hospital that isn't frustrating on multiple levels. To hear this description sounds like a wonderful escapism.

I mean, it's also the doctor's experience tons of frustrations. One of the tensions early on in the series is between Dr. Robbie and the administrator, the main administrator of the hospital, who is coming down and saying, your patient satisfaction numbers need to go up. And he says, We don't have enough nurses, we don't have enough beds. So it definitely grapples in that way with what appears to be real tensions in the emergency rooms of today. And I think I have also read that emergency room professionals who watch this show are like, Yeah, that's what it's like. I mean, give or take a couple of dramatic moments here, there. Like, by all accounts, there's a great sense of verisimilitude to it. Because it's streamed on max, you also can do what you were never able to do on ER, which is show some really gnarly stuff, which you would see in an emergency room, and then have people curse a lot. It's toeing this line between the hospital procedials of old and a more prestige TV of the present day.

I also love it, I'll admit, because it is a neppo baby bonanza. There are at least three neppo babies.

Okay, I did not know this.

Yes, there are at least three neppo babies in the cast, and I love a neppo baby.

I feel- You're an expert, too.

You should say. I am. I am on the neppo baby beat, but also I feel so tenderly toward the neppo babies of the world because of and despite the advantages that they have had. But this is a best case scenario because in only one case is the parent what we might think of as famous. The other two parents just working actors. You don't know. You would never know that these are the children of these parents.

I had never seen many of the actors in this cast other than maybe the top two or three. So who's parents? I mean, who's kids are these?

Yeah, it's three of the doctors. It's Taylor Dyrdene, it's Issah Briones, and it's Fiona Dyrf. Probably the one with the most famous parent is Taylor Dyrdene, who plays Mel, who who is a resident who the show suggests is neurodiverse. I love this actress. I love this character. She is an angel. She should be protected at all costs. Her empathy is extraordinary.

You okay?

I just find patient hasn't seen her daughter, and it won't happen again. Never apologize for feeling something for your patients.

It turns out, surprise, she is the daughter of Brian Cranston.

What? Yeah.

Mel is the daughter of Brian Cranston. She's great.

She's great. That character is wonderful in the show.

Then two of the other actresses, Issah Briones and Fiona Dureff, who play young doctors, are the daughters, respectively, of John John Bryones and Brad Dureff. Of both of whom are working actors.

But let me, we should say- The voice of Chucky. You've written some excellent profiles of nepo babies in the last year. I love them. I feel like you're the good person to ask it. You say that this is the best example of a nepo baby. What What's a bad example of it? Is it the point that if you can tell too much who the parent is?

I think it is. A bad example is if you have to spend a moment thinking, Oh, God, did they really deserve this? Was there someone better that they could have cast in this role? Did they only get the role because of their parent? That's when it feels icky. I've never had a thought with any of these actors who are wonderful and who really disappear into the roles, who are really acting.

Jason, you got to watch some of this.

It sounds like it.

I know your deck is stacked.

I know. I mean, there's only so many hours in the day.

I will say you are a comedy critic, and this show is not very funny.

There's no comedy in it. It is so… Again, I love the show, but it is incredibly serious.

That's okay. I mean, that means that a serious hospital show is my version of relief.

There's one funny thing that happens, and it's not funny, but it's the recurring motif of Dr. Robbie walking into a room where something terrible is happening, and then two minutes later saying, It looks like you all have this, and then walking out. It's like 30% of the show.

Okay. There are rats who show up. There are rats, and there is one poor medical student who keeps being sprayed with body fluids.

See, now you're making me not like it because I'll say as somebody who has spent time in an ER with family members, and one thing I've learned also from the comedy scene, because nurse comedy is a genre, It's a popular genre that ER nurses have some of the darkest senses of humor out there. They are hilarious. There's a whole market of hospital humor. I guess the idea being, if you see these horrible things on a daily basis, where your job is to repress your feelings and put on a straight face on it, that you need relief. When they finish treating you as a patient, know that when they leave, making fun of you later on. Sure.

Can you take both of us to the next hospital open mic, wherever that may be?

Sure, I will. Nurse Blake, yeah.

The basement of old St. Vincent's or whatever.

You might have to go to a cruise. They're big on cruises.

All right, well, I'm totally out. I do not like cruises. All right, we're going to change the channel here. It's time to move on to our next show. I'm the youngest boy. Move it, football head.

Macro data refinement. Welcome back. Please take a seat. Irving, if you wouldn't mind being in back.

Tall glass of water. So obviously, that was Milchek from Apple TV Severance. It's like a minor goal in my life to achieve the calm presentation that Milchek gives in all scenarios at work. This is the second season of Severance. It air this past winter, earlier this year. It's a sci-fi drama. It's a bit of a paranoid thriller about a bunch of office workers whose memories have been surgically severed. We live in a world in this show in which you can divide your time between your work and your personal lives. You're essentially two different people in the same body, and neither person has memory of the other person's life. This season follows up on what was a pretty dramatic season one finale, whichared so long ago in TV TV years. It was three years ago. And Severance this year is the most nominations of any show at the Emmies, 27 nominations, which is so many for a show that is fascinating to me in how both exciting and sleepy it can be at the same time. Jason, did you watch season one and season two in real-time?

I did. In fact, this is, I think, one of the few shows that I watch right when it comes out. And I resent it because it forces you with straight face to use terms that you previously only used to describe your belly button, which are innies and outies. It's humiliating to have to do this. We're grownups. But you have to do it for this season because I think the big shift is that the first season, the fundamental drama is about the innies who are oppressed and controlled by this sinister, mysterious company, Lumen. That shifts a in the second season to the innies being oppressed and controlled by their outies, which opens up all this new metaphorical running room because they're prisoners of themselves. I love this show because it has great ambition in terms of its tone. It both is very serious and very silly. In fact, I think it sometimes teeters on the ludicrous. It escapes that, I find, because of the strength of the cast. I think Adam Scott is amazing. And so is, what's his name? Brit. Brit Lauer. I think this season in particular, because they're playing two characters who are getting increasingly different, and the subtlety in their performance is really remarkable.

This season culminates with a meeting between Mark sending messages from his Innie to his Outie, his Outie back to his Innie. Hey, Ms. Gugel, tell me you like someone down there?

Helena Egan, right?

Any names Helen. Which, again, it's always when I watch it, it's a little bit silly, but they managed to make it a gripping fair fight.

It's Heli, actually. Haleigh.

It's a person I'm in love with.

Which you'd know if you'd ever taken an interest in my life before tonight when you need something.

I love it, and I find it exhausting. I do not care. I do not care anymore what Lumen is up to. I do not care anymore what will happen to these employees. It's just stretched out the mystery too long for me, and not enough has happened. And yet I enjoy it so much. Any episode that involves the goats, the mysterious goats, I'm here for the goats. I would watch the show that was just a supercut of employee perks, because when the Indies do well, they get these perquisites like melon bar, egg bar, music, dance, experience, little finger trap toys. And I would just watch that. In my heart of hearts, I love a workplace comedy. I love a workplace comedy so hard. And all the parts of this that verge on workplace comedy and absurdity I love so much. The parts that are deeper and more philosophical, I have come to find énervating. But Goats and the design Oh, my God. But Goats. The design, the mid-century modern of it all, the creepiness of it all, of having these huge spaces and then crowding all of the workstations into one tiny part of this large space, the low ceilings, the lighting.

It's beautiful.

It is. It is beautiful. I mean, I love the production design. I love the score, the acting, but by and large, maybe give or take one performance. Oh, provocative. I'm not going to talk about who I'm talking about here. But the- Who are you talking about? I'm not in on Patricia Arquette's performance. I think she's a wonderful actress who's in many good things. But the character that they have set up and her performance is not. There's one episode late in the season that's focused primarily on her, and I think I fell asleep twice. I watched her two successive times.

Is that her fault or is that the script?

Well, Well, I would say both. I would say both. Everyone else is great, particularly Tramal Tillman, who you heard at the beginning, who plays Mr. Milchek, and who many people saw this summer in the new Mission Impossible movie. He's incredible.

What a star.

But there is, I agree with both of you. I find much of the metaphorical conceit fascinating. I think the thing that I continue to trip on is, as you were alluding to, the mystery element of it, the lostness of it. I use that not pejoratively because I think lost is one of the great shows of the past many decades. But there is this part of it, which is like, all right, what is Lumen doing? What are the goats? Why are there only seemingly four people working at this company in charge?

I think I empathize, and I also felt that. But I also, at some point I realized, Oh, the strength of it isn't the mystery. I think Like Alexis is saying, it has moment to moment all these incredible jewels. The relationship between Christopher Walkin and John Tutturo is beautifully realized. Zack is showing incredible range. It's a fascinating relationship with Merritt Weaver. The language of it is incredibly ornate and interesting. But fundamentally, I think it's not a show where plot is its strength. And increasingly, the way that we're taught to watch these shows is as in trying to solve a mystery of the plot. We're not living in a golden age of TV. As our TV critic pointed out, we're in a mid-era of TV. But if you were to make a case that we are, if you were to try to constrain it, I think you'd have to start here because what it's attempting to do is so ambitious. If you look at really great art, plot is important, but it's certainly not what you would describe as the most important aspect of most great art. I think at some point it became less interested in plot and the mystery of it than in some of these ideas, which is actually quite dark ideas.

It turns into a show, in my view, about slavery, about whether these innies, are they people? Are they worthy of love? Are they worthy of life? Or are they just means to an end?

I think it's fascinating, too, because there's a show, it's created by a gentleman named Dan Erickson, but it is produced, and many of the episodes are directed by someone who we used to consider one of the great comic actors, Ben Stiller, who has become someone now who I feel like has moved into this phase where this is his life now as opposed to being a comedic actor.

It's true. I You forget it. If it doesn't feel like a bed that every once in a while something will happen where you're like, Oh, yeah, there's a comedian behind us. I do think that's the magic trick of the show is that the tone is paranoid. It's unlike anything else on TV, I would say.

It really is. The flavor is unlike anything else. It is a dark show, and it is a dour show in its way, but it could be so much darker and so much more dour. There are moments of pure absurdism that really love in it and make it feel like nothing else. I would like to believe, and I don't know if this is true, but I would like to believe that it is strong enough that if the central mysteries were solved, if the questions were answered, if we suddenly knew everything about Lumen Industries and what Lumen Industries was doing, that there would still be enough for the show to persevere, that this is just a carapace and maybe a carapace that it doesn't really need anymore.

Well, another element, you're right. I think it also becomes a romance in which- There's a love triangle. There's a love triangle in which he has to choose at the end.

Because he has two selves, so it's like a love quadrateral.

Yeah, that's right. Then he chooses it, he doesn't. Then there's this Butch Cassie and the Sundance Kid freeze frame.

The last minute of this season is quite striking and memorable, both in musical choice and imagery. Yes. The Velvet fog returns.

It's like the graduate before they get on the bus. Yes.

We are going to keep surfing. Let's move on to our next show, gang.

We were on the brand. Kim, would you stop taking pictures of yourself? Your sister's going to jail.

Who did you meet with a boat?

Are they decent people?

Yeah, they own their own yacht. They're rich.

Just because people are rich doesn't mean they're not trashy. Most rich people are trashy.

I wouldn't go that far.

That accent can only be from one show. We have changed the channel back to HBO. We're talking about the White Lotus. This is the third season of the Mike White drama, in which essentially rich people go to a fancy resort somewhere, all owned by the the White Lotus chain, and then someone dies. First one, Hawaii, second one, Sicily. Next season is going to be in France, but this one was set in Thailand. Alexis, I don't watch this show. I've never wanted to start. I don't think I ever will.

What do you do? Oh, my God. At cocktail parties, you talk about books?

Jesus. Yeah, and I can't find anyone to actually engage with me.

How do you participate in the life of the culture I have to deserve.

I think I just say, Have you seen The Bear? That show's great. Oh, my God. Yeah, The Bear. Talk about The White Lotus.

I love a show that understands the assignment. I love a show that understands that the job of TV TV has many jobs, but I would say the really big one is to entertain and that knows that what we want to see are beautiful people in a gorgeous location being miserable. It is all the wealth porn and all the schadenfreund rolled into one. Because Mike White and his casting directors are very savvy, they get some of the greatest working actors to populate these shows. It has mystery, it has excitement, it has sex, it has me imagining what my life would be like if I, too, could afford room service. It has it all. It delivers.

Why do you think other than wealth, porn, schadenfreude, when you talk to your friends about this show, what is- You want more?

Do you want more than that?

I'm What do you- I'm not sold yet. Tell me. What do you- I need you to sell me the Parker Posey accent.

What do you... Yes. When you said this could only be one show, I think it could actually be two shows. One is the White Lotus, and one is an unusually demented episode of Southern Charm. Okay. But I think it has everything, and I don't think you need to think too hard. I think it has these incredibly beautiful locations, this evocation of luxury. I think it has wonderful actors. In every season, something really terrible and awkward happens on a boat. I mean, you need more than this.

I get that, but I do feel like this season got some mixed notices, as they said.

I think it did. I think this season did feel sometimes like it was repeating beats of the previous seasons, which you could suggest a show that's out of ideas. I like to liken it to the Buddhist concept of Samhsaara, right?

Remind us what that is again.

You don't know?

Yeah, no. God, you are. I do. I just wanted to show you. You don't know what is for the Buddhist? I want to be on the same page here.

I know. Just this idea that we are in a constant cycle of death and rebirth, and that we are always going to work out the same tensions, the same conflicts, the same desires, that that is at the core of our humanity. I also think that television does benefit I fit somewhat from the familiar. I do enjoy a procedural. I do enjoy the comforts of a procedural. I would not necessarily call White Lotus a comfortable show because there is a lot of cringe. There was a semi-incess plot line this season that I absolutely had to watch through my fingers. But I do think that there is something comforting in seeing a writer-director at the top of his game do what he does, which has always been, if you're Mike White, to display humans at their most venal. Most people don't have good values. They're scammers. You're all gorgeous and you come for money. So you have to be hyper vigilant, okay? You have to be on your guard.

Let me ask you if you agree. There's so many of these shows about rich people people behaving badly that are intended for us to dislike them. There's a thing that people say or a theory about war movies, that there's no such thing as an anti-war movie, that if you put war on screen, it's inevitably going to come off glamorous and it's going to romanticize violence. I've grown to feel like that's true of rich people movies, intelligence shows, of which this is not an insignificant part of our cultural diet. Succession, most famously. I don't care how much they make us want to think that being insanely wealthy looks bad. It still looks pretty good.

I would like to try it. I think that the secret to these shows is the feeling that you have, even if you don't express it, which is, I would do better. If I were in this gorgeous hotel, in this gorgeous location, I would behave appropriately.

Everyone thinks they'll be a bit of Sure. Do you?

No. Do I think I'm going to be better? No. I think... You're just going to be gross. Yeah, I'm going to be good. What arrogance, what hubris to think that I'll be... Clearly, there's something corrupt about being surrounded by having everything taken care of. Why would I be any better? I don't feel that. I guess, I mean, I also really, I Yes, I do come to television for fundamentally different reasons. I like to feel bad. I like shows that aim to disrupt and make me feel uncomfortable.

This explains so much.

I wrote This is the book on horror films. This is who I am. It's funny because the White Lotus, I enjoyed because it is uncomfortable and there is a tension. Although I didn't see this season, I did see that monolog by Sam Rockwell every everywhere. That was this year, right? Which did make me very interested. He goes for it, Mike White. Those are the parts that are exciting.

This is so funny because all I want out of TV is to feel okay, and you want the opposite. But wait, Jason, because you have introduced this, I have to know. What is the most disgusting thing that you would buy with your billions? What is the most disgusting, abusive waste of money that you can see? He would buy a comedy club.

I would buy a comedy club. For nurses.

I would buy a nursing comedy club, and I would pay the audience to laugh at my jokes. I would go on stage and tell nursing jokes.

All dad jokes. All dad jokes all the time.

Yes, all the time. No, I've been to a fancy hotel before, and there are perks there that are corrupt. I've been to one where it was like a resort where at any point in the resort, if you asked for a bowl of popcorn, it would appear. I can't think of anything better. Imagine in your life, at any time in your life, you just think... I feel like, you know who shares this?

Like a popcorn concierge?

Yeah, Lorne Michiels. I'm sure you've read Profiles of Lorne Michiels. He always has a bowl of popcorn, and I get it.

All right, we are going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll talk about some proper comedies.

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Welcome back. This is a Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, and I'm here with Jason Zitiman and Alexis Solosky. On this Emy's Day, we're talking about some of our favorite TV from the past year. Let us go to our next show, channel Change, now.

I couldn't help but wonder. Did I do that?

Can you start packing yet?

Oh, no, but I will.

You want some help? From who? You? Just from me. Because you hate packing. Everybody hates packing, Joel. But we do the things that we hate for the ones we love. Oh, my gosh. Are you being tender with me? Yes.

I like it.

This is Somebody Somewhere, which aired its third and final season. This is about a woman played by Bridget Everett, who moves back to her Midwest hometown and finds a bunch of friends, a bunch of outsiders that she falls in with. It's like a warm show. Both of you like this.

I love this show. This is a show that breaks my heart and then puts it back together with a bandaid and a kiss. I felt so many feelings just in that little clip that you played. All I want are shows about people being kind to each other and learning to grow and be better in incremental ways. This is what I love, and this does it so well. If you have ever seen Bridget Everett on stage, she is an alt cabaret performer. She is dynamic. She is exciting. She is sumptuous. She is over the top. All of that too muchness and over the topness, she has restrained into playing a very real character.

I can't think of a half-hour show, comedy or otherwise, that's made me cry more than this show. Now, I don't know. It's something I thought, why am I always crying at this show? But I think there's a couple of theories. One is the use of music. Music is the most emotional of art forms. As Alexis points out, Bridget Everett is a singer, and they strategically use... She has this incredible gift.

A cup of coffee or a to the store.

I'll take forever, and then I'll take some more. And not just her, but there's a couple other strategic songs in the show which are heartbreaking. Second of all, I think so much of entertainment is these high-stake stories about fighting aliens or doctors saving lives or billionaires fighting people. It almost feels radical to see a careful carefully observed portrait of ordinary people, working class people in the Midwest, trying to make connections.

Because, oh, the way you look at me, I can't explain it, but I know it's love.

It's funny. It's an irony of the show that it's this middle-earct in portrait because it's made by all these downtown New York theater people. Bridget Everett and Jeff Hillar get a lot of credit, as they should. They're the friendship that's at the core of this show. But the writers and creators of the show ran a off-Broadway theater company called Debate Society that really put on these jewel-like productions. They were also... A lot of them were set in the Midwest. I would describe them as being very fully realized, very detailed. Every choice felt like incredible of thought came into it. Every character felt like they had a considered backstory. It felt very lived in. At the same time, there was something a little Lynchian about these shows. What they did here is they took out the Lynchian aspect to it and put in this realism anchored by, as Alexis points out, this understated performance by Bridget Ever. There's a real power in this marriage, particularly, I think, one thing that's always emotional is when these larger-than-life characters go small. When you see the tenderness of Marlon Brando and the Godfather at the end, at the end of the Godfather, that makes our people cry.

There's something similar about Bridget Everts' performance, that she's this powerhouse, but she's constantly making herself small in a way that is very recognizable. It's really not what you feel, at least what I feel. When I see Bridget ever doing cabriolet, you think this is this superhero-like person. But she really is playing against it in a quite heartbreaking way.

It's so particular. It's so beautifully observed. It has been ignored by the Emmies until now. And this year, finally, it has two nominations, one from Jeff Hillar, who is extraordinary, and then one I think really, really deserved for outstanding writing because the writing really is outstanding, and I'm so pleased to see it recognized. But I think there was a moment in the the 2010s, where studios, network streamers, were putting their money a little bit behind these smaller, voicey comedies that felt really lovely and really particular, and we've moved away from that. The fact that somebody somewhere was allowed to exist, that it was given three seasons. What a gift. What a joy. Yeah.

Well, listening to music, Jason, and watching TV and watching movies are really the only way that I can cry these days. I think I need to watch somebody somewhere. We are going to change the channel.

You unlock this door with the key of imagination.

You come at the king, you best not miss. You know, prestige films and box office hits, those are not mutually exclusive. We can do both, and we will do both. That is why I am excited to announce that we are fast-tracking a Kool-Aid movie. Oh, yeah. This is the studio. This is a show that all three of us It's an Apple TV Plus show. It's co-created by and it stars Seth Rogan. He plays an executive at a Hollywood studio named Continental, who at the beginning of the series is elevated to Studio Chief when his mentor, the former Studio Chief, is deposed. This is a Hollywood satire. Obviously, this is something that Hollywood loves to do, it loves to make fun of itself, whether it's in something really dark like the player, the Robert Altman movie, or lighter things like this one. What did we think of this show?

I'll be honest, it took a minute for me because Seth Rogen is playing a very Seth Rogen character. His studio executive, Matt Remick, is extremely doffy. He is so doffy. It was hard for me, even in the comedy universe, the heightened reality universe, to imagine that someone like this stupid and this out of touch would have risen this high. I wouldn't say I'm someone with a glowing opinion of studio executives, and yet. I kept longing for someone who was just a little smarter, a little savvier, who would still make these mistakes. But I was staying with my sister in LA, and I have compromised night vision. As such, I walked through her screen door, and the only thing I could think of to say was, Oh, yeah. It got me. By the final episode, the Golden Globe episode, it's perfect. It got me. I was all in. I loved it.

I love this genre. I mean, Larry Sanders is probably my favorite television show of all time. This is not that. If you're expecting a scathing takedown of or one deeply realistic, for that matter, this is much more warm-hearted. I think it's good that the Emmys are going to celebrate an actual comedy. This is- The bear? I mean, I know it's You laughed more then than I did at the bear.

The jokes per minute ratio on the bear, they were like, what, zero for 30?

Exactly, which is not good. It's not good for... I mean, the Golden Gloves episode of the studio, I thought was hilarious and was very well-crafted. It's not a show where you've seen everything it has done before. At the same time, I think it has one great insight and innovation, which is that we're living in this time where Hollywood has lost its mojo, has lost its swagger. And bosses, more generally, of prestige institutions seem like the stature has fallen a little bit. No offense, Gilbert, as a boss of a prestige institution.

A boss with a small B, so it's fine.

Yes, okay. And I think the people who created the studio, they saw this as an opportunity. Because if you think of a Hollywood mogul, what do you think of a cigar chomping person.

Robert Evans.

Robert Evans, someone who's intimidating, someone who's making decisions because of the bottom line. What they realize is that, Oh, you could actually make a Hollywood mogul who's not only like an underdog, but a pathetic likable underdog. You can make him like a Seth Rogen figure, which I had never seen before. I think in its most Larry Sanders moments, he's this guy who's desperate for validation, who got into this for the art because he loved these great movies, and then he suddenly finds himself in this diminished business where it's really run by tech. That is realistic. I talk to a lot of people in Hollywood or in show business who have that same story. In that sense, I think it's actually quite topical.

No one, as a child at the movie, staring up at that big, beautiful screen, thinks, One day I will green light, Kool-Aid. No one.

Except for Marty Scorsese, who in the first episode makes one of many great cameos that happens by many people over the course of this season. He's forced to turn his three-hour Killers of the Flower Moon type project about the Jonestown Massacre into a Kool-Aid movie, which when you think about it, of course, is both gross and yet hilarious at the same time. He was nominated for an Emmy for that cameo. One of the great joys of this is all the other cameos that you have in it.

Zoe Kravitz, Olivia Wilde doing amazing self-parody.

Zoe Kravitz in three episodes at the end. Ron Howard doing- Ted Serandos, I thought, sending himself up was hilarious.

Anthony Mackey, all of these people just skewering themselves. It's beautiful.

It's something that Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg and all the people around him have done well in the past. I mean, they've made many movies in which the line between actors and the real Hollywood friends are very fuzzy. There's an incredible Dave Franco run near the end of the season that I would watch again just to see his scenes. I found the show hilarious. I actually would watch the entire season again. It also feels like there's something about Seth Rogen's laugh that drives the doofiness of this character. I don't know that anyone else could play this character in the way that it is played here, and it all rests in his type laugh. I think he's really good in this He's having a beautiful moment, our Seth. Can I say who I also think is having a beautiful moment on the studio? Sal Saperstein. The character played by Ica Barrett-Holtz, who might be my favorite character of the entire year so far. No, I'm not going to pretend to have a dead cousin to give Ron Howard a note that you should give him. Are you stricken by the morality of this situation? Is that what's happening?

Oh, you're burying. He is great. No, him and Katherine Han are a fantastic duo. There is saliva.

Saliva is flying. God, what is wrong with you? Why can't you just give him the note?

Okay, now look at you. You look just like my son did when I caught him watching porn on my iPhone.

The running joke of everyone thanking Sal Saperstein in the Golden Gloves. There's a bunch of lines in there that were when Rami is complimenting Zoe Kravitz, and he says, It's good. It's not just diversity good. It's It's good. That's also a very of the moment.

There's some cutting stuff in there.

That's some cutting stuff. One of the interesting things about this show is how beautifully it's shot, which I don't know if it's good or bad. I wonder what you guys think about that. I mean, if it had a grittier esthetic, would that make it better or worse? I think it does increase the love, tribute to Hollywood aspect of it.

It definitely draws your attention to the the quote, awesomeness of the camera work. I mean, these swirling handheld cameras, the tracking shots. That stuff is forefronted, like you're supposed to notice it, and it makes it feel like a weird contrast. You have these people who love movies, who are doing the stupidest things possible, but yet look at the beauty of the filmmaking that is happening here. I actually think the two work in tandem.

I'm a cibberite. I like something pretty to look No, I do, too.

I like it. As you said, I think there's a way to rationalize why it makes sense with the material. But I'd be curious to know what it... It does draw me out of it. The moments where you're immersed in this world, it keeps saying, Hey, look at this gorgeous shot. Is the point, is it trying to say, Hey, look, Hollywood can still pull off this magic?

To me, that is part of the point. I think it is. Filmmaking can be beautiful, even in a show about a bunch of doofuses making bad horror movies. All right, let us change the channel one more time into a show that made me deeply uncomfortable.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha.

No. I can drawHello? Look, what you're about to witness is going to seem weird, which is why I'm putting myself through it before I invite any real pilots to participate. But if a personality transfer can work on a dog, then maybe, just maybe, it could work on a human being. Okay.

That's like the 15th craziest thing in that episode. That line is like- It's impossible for me to hear Nathan Fielder's voice without thinking of Tina from Bob's Burger.

But we've arrived at Nathan Fielder's nearly impossible to describe show. This show, which aired its second season and has two Emmy nominations this year, sets up, creates scenarios where you could, quote, rehearse for moments in real life. In the second season, and again, Nathan Fielder is a comedian, he becomes obsessed with the idea that the reason that some plane crashes happen is because there's a dynamic that happens in pilot communication that leads to the copilot not being able to stave off emergencies that they see. Jason, this is a weird show. I almost watched it on a plane ride back from Colorado. I decided in the first two minutes to turn it off. How do you describe this show? How do you describe Nathan Fielder?

At first, I think this show is a triumph. I love this show. I think it's interesting. It is a hard show to describe, but I think it's actually fundamentally about a socially awkward, emotionally clueless control freak trying to be a normal person. That's what all his work is about. The method of creating these rehearsals is a means to that end. He has this big theory in the show that miscommunication among pilots is the cause of plane crashes. If we could fix that, then we could solve this major problem. He goes a long way to convincing you he's right. More than any of his previous work, which always blurs the line between reality and fiction, this one really makes you question what is real, what is not. In thinking of what this has in common with all his previous work, flight is a big part of his esthetic. At the end of Nathan For You, the last image is this drone shot flying up into the sky. At the end of the Curse, there's this horrifying levitation where he violently floats up into space. At the end of this show, Nathan Fielder flies a Boeing 737 passenger plane.

There's an element of Nathan Fielder, of the showman of him, that he's trying to create a sense of awe in the way that in Wicked, When She Flies, the impact it has on the audience is this. It's trying to create this disorienting sense of wonder. In the third episode where he recreats the life of Sully, which also includes a crazy bit of theatrical flight when he turns himself into Baby Sullenberger, and he shaves his body, and then you see him in a diaper walking out, and then suddenly you see this giant crib, and you have no idea what you're watching at that moment. You're like, what? Your brain's got to re... And you realize, oh, he's built this three-story tall crib, and then he's hooked into these harnesses like from Peter Pan.

If even just the tiniest bit of Sully could become a part of me, it would all be worth it.

And he flies up into this crib. It's a very magical moment, which proceeds the most horrifying, awkward moment I've seen all year.

It was difficult at first to inhabit the mind of a baby. Is it the scene where he is breastfed by a giant puppet?

He's breastfed by a giant puppet, yes. And basically, he's almost like-He almost chokes. Drounding on mother There's milk.

I tried not to think about the fact that I was a 41-year-old man and just did my best to be present in the moment. The face that Alexis is making right now.

I'm so scarred. I'm so scarred from this.

Just wait until you watch it. No, I did.

I did. I watched it. I watched it. Oh, God. I can't unwatch it.

It is like it sticks with you. Maybe it's scarring, but maybe it's wonderful. But unlike a lot of most stuff on television, It sticks with you.

I will say, I mean, there's no one who commits to the bit harder. There's no one working in TV right now who goes harder and who follows things through in ways that make me distinctly uncomfortable and never takes the easy option when a more elaborate option would work. I mean, in that sequence that you mentioned before the horrific breastfeeding, there's also a very uncomfortable thing where he's supposed to get sexually excited Oh, God. Anyway, before that, when he's still the baby, they use a very sophisticated form of Japanese puppetry to like, puppet a giant mother for him.

He does the most And his tall father on stilt.

His tall? Oh, my God.

It's all very eternal sunshine of the Spotless Minds or Kaufman-esque.

But it's also about obsession. In that episode, I also see it as a parody of the obsessed literary theory that can find meaning in anything if you look at it long enough. He has this theory about the reason Sully did this act of great bravery and landing this plane is tied to a song by Evanescence. You believe it because I've felt this, Alex, I'm sure you have. If you look closely enough at something and you get obsessed with it, the act of criticism, the act of analysis takes not a life of its own. It has its own pleasure. He mocks that and dramatizes it throughout.

There was something also in that episode and many other things, many other wild things happened throughout this second season that felt like he was connecting the entire conceit to the way that we're all reddit pilled now, and everyone is just trying to, figure out what the reason is, go deeper and deeper and deeper. And if you reread Sully's memoir over and over and over again, look for the holes and find these connections, then you can understand why something actually happened.

Everything's a murder wall if you try hard enough. You can red string just about anything.

Just to be clear, this is an episode that starts not with Sully, but with Nathan Fielder building a replica of a dog owner's house, a dog owner who has cloned her dead dog, to try to see if he can make that dog act like the dead dog by creating the circumstances under which the dead dog lived.

Yes. No, it's... I mean, this is a series I've seen twice. There's layers upon layers to go in. It's funny because it's making fun of this, but it's also building something for you to analyze and unpack. It's structurally really clever and ambitious and also just insane.

Is this for everyone? Is it for anyone? Who's this show for?

You. It's for you. It's for you, Jason.

It's for you. It is literally Nathan for you.

It is.

When you were describing a anxious, hyper-intelligent person, trying to control the world and be normal, I was like, Oh.

I don't want to control the world, Alexis. That's somebody else's job. But no, it's a cult hit, which I think actually in the current culture, it works because it doesn't have as big a fan base as Star Wars. But the people who like Nathan Fielder are in the tank for Nathan Fielder. They're obsessed with it. I do think it speaks to today in a way a lot of other work does not.

Yeah. All right. Before we get to our game segment, I just want to mention, obviously, there's so many shows that came out over the past year or whatever the crazy eligibility period for the Emmies actually is that we could not talk about. Adolescence, one of the most talked about shows of the past few months, The Aforementioned The Bear, Abid Elementary, Adults, which I know that both of you love, an FX show, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, The Last of Us, Slow Horses, which I'm a super big fan of, Andor, my favorite show of the year. I'll devote an episode to that separately down the line.

We should have let Gilbert talk about Andor. We should have.

I feel guilty about that. Yeah, but you didn't. That's where we are. We'll play our game right after this break. Welcome back. I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm here with Jason Zitiman and Alexis Solosky, and we are going to, as we do at the end of every Sunday special a game. Jason and Alexis, one of the defining features about this year in TV, the past 10 years of TV, have been just how much of it there is. So in honor of that, we're going to play a giant game this week. We're going to channel surf through a bunch of essentially mini games. I'm going to explain the rules as we go along. You both have buzzers in front of you. The person who gets the most voice wins.

The goal is not to win, but to have fun. Is that right?

The goal is- Disgusting.

Disgusting.

To do both.

Are we in America?

You're going to win something, guys. So you do want to win. Is that right?

This might change my calculus.

What is our lovely prize?

You'll see at the end. No.

It's not going to be good.

Well, Jason, you are correct. All right. Round one of our game is called Don't Cross the Streams. I'm going to name a streaming service, and you tell me if it is real. Are you ready?

Yes. Yes.

Friendly TV. Jason.

Not real.

It is real. It's focused on family programming. Opus.

Real.

It is not real. It's not about the Catholic Church.

It just shows Conclave 24 hours a day.

I would watch it. All right, next up. Som TV. Som TV. Jason.

Som TV. That's not real. That's nonsense. It shouldn't be real.

It is real.

No, it's not.

I don't believe it. Where's the proof? It's focused on wine and food programming. Somalia TV, I guess.

This is nonsense.

Next. Is there a streaming service named Virgo?

No, not real.

Not real. One point. Someone finally got a point. All right, next one. Howdy.

Yes, yes, real.

Yeah, Alexis, it is real. Hey, you. Jason.

Real.

Yes, it is real. Apparently, it distributes NBC content around the world.

Who knew there were all these streaming services?

All right. Hiya. Jason. Sure. Yes. Okay. This is martial arts movies. What's up? Jason.

No.

No, it is not a streaming service. That's right.

It's a hilarious catchphrase from the '90s.

I I still say it. That was round one. Hopefully, someone is keeping score because I am not. Round two is called the Plot Thickens. I'm going to give you a logline for a TV series from the past year, and you have to tell me what the show is. A brilliant septuagenarian attorney rejoins the workforce at a prestigious law firm. Matlock. Alexis Matlock. Correct. An itinerant former military A scary policeman solves crimes and meets out his own brand of street justice.

I don't watch TV.

I got nothing.

The answer is Reacher. Reacher. Oh, boy. A group of singles come to stay in a villa for a few weeks and have to couple up with one another. Alexis. Love Island. We can share. All right. Love Island. Alexis, correct.

Unlike the Love Island.

Three friends navigate the journey from the complicated reality of friendship and life in their 30s to the even more complicated reality of life and friendship in their 50s. What is the show, Alexis?

Was it And Just Like That? Correct.

You're on a roll here, Alexis. Well done. Final one in this round. A documentary crew searches for a new subject, finding a dying Midwest paper and its publisher's efforts to revoke... Jason. The paper. The paper, correct. Next and final round. Yes. Emything goes. The Emmys are tonight. That's why we're in honor of that three pieces of Emy Trivia. What Hollywood legend, star of two major film franchises, is nominated for his first Emy this year at the age of 83?

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Harrison Ford.

Harrison Ford, who is in Double TV Shrinking. That is correct. All right, next question. None of the 16 committees for Outstanding Comedy Series and Outstanding Drama Series air on network TV, with the sole exception of what Philadelphia set sitcom?

I know the answer.

I'm going to say Abbott Elementary.

Abbott Elementary.

I'm trying to lose now. Okay.

Tank it.

Tank it, baby. I'm trying to get a perfect score of zero.

Final question. Only three actors are nominated for Emmies this year for portraying real people. All three actors appear on the same series based on a famous murder case from the 1990s. What is the name of that series? Alexis.

Oh, no. Oh, no.

That is Oh, no, it's not.

I was going to say Monster, but it's not that.

The answer is Monsters.

Oh, it's Monster.

The Laila Eric Menendez story. Okay. How topical. That is the end of our quiz. We have to do a lot of adding up to see who won. I'm not exactly sure.

Fair. Well played.

Alexis, I believe you are the champion of this week's game.

Oh, my God. I don't deserve it. I don't deserve it. I don't know what to do.

Let us have someone bring in the prize.

No, I don't want it.

There have been three episodes of the Sunday Special so far. We have awarded one of these in each episode. It is something we call the Gilby.

Oh, thank you. I thought I didn't deserve this, but looking at this small plastic trophy, I really feel that this is aligned with what I believe I deserve.

Given that my face is on it, I don't know how to feel about what you just said, but congratulations. Both of you were really game in coming on this week's episode to talk about some of our favorite TV from the past year. Jason, thanks so much. Good to be here. Alexis, thank you.

An honor.

This episode was produced by Kate Leprestey with help from Alex Baron, Tina Antalini, and Luc Venderpleeg. We had production assistance from Frannie Kartoth and Dalia Haddad. It was edited by Wendy Dore. The Sunday special was engineered by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Elisabeth Etup, and Diane Wong. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. Thanks for listening, everyone. Next week, I'll be talking with some of my colleagues from The Food Desk about the 50 best restaurants in America. See you then.