Transcript of Sunday Special: The Enduring Power of Amusement Parks

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Welcome, everyone, to the Sunday Special. I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm excited because today we're talking about one of my secret favorite things. It's not movies or books or TV, all of which, honestly, are some of my favorite things in the world. Instead, we are talking about amusement parks. All year round, Americans travel to Orlando and Los Angeles and Anaheim to go to some of the most famous theme parks around. And those who don't go there are likely going somewhere close to home, like the Six Flags that I used to go to in New Jersey. With me today To talk about Amusement Parks Across America is Brooks Barnes, who writes about Hollywood for the Times. He's visited all 14 Disney theme parks around the world, and he also traveled with a carnival when he was younger, which is totally normal. No big deal. I have so many questions about it. Welcome, Brooks.

Hello.

Across from me is Mikado Murphy. Officially, he is a movie editor here. Unofficially, he is the Times roller coaster correspondent. He has published more pieces about roller coasters than any other writer in time's history. I have not fact-checked that, but it has to be true. Welcome, Mikado.

Hey, Gilbert. Okay, Brooks, first things first.

We have to get this out of the way. We need to talk about this. You grew up in a traveling carnival.

Yes. Mikado is rolling his eyes. Not the old carnival story. He's not rolling that out again. Yes, I was not in a carnival. I was in an attraction. Myself. But my parents made a living by selling cotton candy and corn dogs. We traveled with the carnival called the Mighty Thomas Carnival. Okay. Through Canada, the Midwest, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, California. I feel at home in these chaotic, manufactured environments.

How many years did you do that for?

From the time I was born to the last season I worked for them was the summer after my freshman year in college.

Oh, my God. That's your entire job. I thought it was just a couple of years. No, no, no. So they sold Cotton Candy, but they didn't operate rides or anything.

No rides.

But you were around the people who operated rides, games.

The Zipper, the Himalaya. I worked for them. I worked in the stands starting at a maybe younger age than I should disclose.

Yeah, I don't get the impression there a lot the law's a little fuzzy in these places.

The law's a little fuzzy. But when I was younger, they worked nonstop, and I had free reign of the carnival. I had my little rounds. I would make friends with the slim who ran the ferris wheel and chief who ran the merry-go-round, and I'd ride the sea dragon over and over and over again. I did my thing.

Yet, growing up in that environment, did not tire you out from wanting to experience?

It turns out that when carnies have a vacation, they go to Disneyland.

Is that true?

That is true.

Also, can we say carnies? Is that an acceptable term?

I feel like I'm... You can. I can. Yes, of course.

You went to Disneyland and you were like, Wow, this is a real...

Yeah, because a carnival, everything packs up. Amusement parks were always fascinating to me in how how organized it all was, right? And permanent. But also it's just a chaotic environment, one that as an adult now, I feel very comfortable in. The smell of the popcorn, the music, the crying babies.

Brooks, you totally lived my childhood dream. I couldn't...

I left out all of the trauma. I'm sure, I'm sure.

But yes, I couldn't imagine anything cooler than getting to work at a carnival all the time. But I grew up in a family that was very carnival-like, but we did not travel in a carnival.

Nice.

What was your relationship with Amusement Parks when you were a kid? Was it a family thing or was it just your thing?

With my family, I did come from a family of thrill-seekers. I grew up in Oklahoma, but we didn't have an amusement park in Oklahoma when I was growing up. Not a big one. My family would travel each summer to Fort Worth. We had some cousins down there, and we would go to Six Flags over Texas during the summer. So that was my big introduction to theme parks.

I grew up in New York, and we had something, Rye Playland, which is a little theme park north of the Bronx where I grew up. On the boardwalk is where they were Zoltar, the little thing that makes Tom Hanks big and small in the movie was located. I went once to Disney when I was 10 years old. It was the only real vacation we ever took when I was a kid. It was the biggest moment of my young life. I've been obsessed with recapturing that excitement ever since. I don't think I'll ever get there.

Disney counts on that, believe me.

Disney counts on that. Oh, yeah. Now that I have a child, and my family's wallet is very aware of how much they count on it. It's just Shocking how expensive it is, and yet it still remains this rite of passage for American families. Did either of you... Was Disney a thing for you, the idea of Disney, at least, when you were growing up?

The idea of Disney was definitely a thing for me. Growing up, I always had fantasies and dreams of Disneyland just because there were all these distinct worlds, Frontierland, Fantasieland. When I was growing up, because I didn't get to go to all of these places, I actually created a theme park myself. I had this park that was called-In your mind? I created in my mind, and then I drew it all out. The park was called Fun World. Great name.

Can't wait to go.

The founder of the park was HDR Fun. This is It's all very... A lot of Disney theft here, but I do recall I created the park map, all of the rides, and then I drew out a number of the rides in the park, too.

That's amazing.

Yeah, that was a part of my childhood because I didn't get to travel to parks as much.

I feel like now they have video games like Theme Park Simulator, Rollercoaster Tycoon, and that you were doing it before all of that, just with pen and paper.

I was doing Analog Rollercoaster My version of you drawing your theme park was in anticipation of our trip to Disney, which also coincided with the opening of Universal Studios Florida.

It was in 1990, so I got to see some of those early rides that no longer exist. The Jaws ride. The Jaws ride, like the Alfred Hitchcock experience, like murder, she wrote. It was just a bunch of stuff that would- No murder, she wrote experience. There was a murder, she wrote ride? There was a murder, she wrote theatrical experience. Oh, my goodness. It was one of the of those things you saw on the main street as you were walking in through Universal Studios, you would sit down and they would talk to you about foley sound and the mechanics of a TV making.

The click of her heels on it.

And movie making and stuff like that. Anyway, before we went, I was obsessed with making sure that we got to every ride in the most efficient way possible. So my version of drawing a theme park was charting out a course throughout all of Disney World, go to Tomorrowland first, go to Spaceland, do all that stuff that now people do on very intense websites. It was an odd combination of excitement for a theme park and also real spreadsheet nonsense that a 10-year-old would do. I feel like it has led to where I am today in my life, where everything needs to be as efficient as possible.

Visiting a park now tends to involve spreadsheet nonsense, to be honest.

Gilbert, that is exactly how I go to parks now. It is very much- Yes. My brother-in-arm's. Yes. What you were doing when you were a kid is the exact same thing that I do now. It really does require Herculean efforts sometimes just to make sure you make it on a ride at all.

It feels like we're at an important moment for a theme park business, here in America, at least. Big thing happened this summer. Finally happened after, I feel like, a year of commercials that I was seeing on TV. Universal Studios opened up its new park in Orlando. Epic Universe. I'm wondering, first of all, what the heck is Epic Universe, and why is it a big deal for Universal?

Sure. So, Epic Universe, they spent at least $7 billion to build it.

$7 billion? Is that normal?

That's normal. That's conservative. That's the admitted amount. It's a new park near across the interstate freeway from the older Universal Studios complex, which is two parks and a water park. Do we count water parks as theme parks? I do.

We definitely count water parks as theme parks.

The reason Epik is such a big deal is that it's investment. It's Universal trying to be more Disney. The vast majority, families go to Disney World, and Universal is an added day or a day and a half. Universal wants to flip that. You to Universal, and you do an added day at Disney. It's a big deal for Universal in its evolution, but it's also a big deal in terms of igniting. It sounds cliché because it's true, theme parkour. Disney's pouring money into Disney World to remain competitive, and Universal is... Epik is reflective of their broader business at Universal. They're building a new park in the UK. They're building a kids park in Texas. They're expanding in California. And so Disney, even though it acts like it doesn't even notice Universal, why would we think about them? It keenly notices them.

And what are the different parts of Epic Universe? Because it has several lands, and each of them is organized around a movie or a piece of intellectual property, IP. Yes. What are they?

There's the Isle of Berk, which is how to train your dragon. There is the main part, which I think they call Celestial Park, which is a giant roller coaster and dancing fountains and that thing. I'm sure Mikado has opinions about the roller coaster, which is currently closed because there is a mishap on it. Then the other areas are Nintendo-themed, which is a Casino for five-year-olds.

I've been very curious about Super Nintendo World or whatever it's called, but I also feel like it might be for people much younger than me.

I'm exaggerating, but it was more than I could take. There's coins. It's a lot. There's a world for Harry Potter, of course. Universal has Harry Potter in most of its parks. What's the other one?

The other one is Dark Universe. Dark Universe.

Of course, yes. Just classic monsters like Dracula and Frankenstein. That actually is one of the best rides in the whole park, right?

Yeah, Monsters Unleashed. That one is really, really fun. You get to meet a lot of the universal Monsters on the ride.

You rode all the rides, and you like the family coaster, which doesn't do any loops. That surprised me because you're Mr. Adrenaline.

I do love adrenaline, but I also really love theming. That ride, Hiccup's Wing Gliders, is a wonderfully themed ride. It's so great. Whether or not you're into how to train your dragon, it's just a really fun experience. You get to see Toothless on the ride, and Toothless presses his little jaw down to launch you into the coaster. It's just super fun. There's a lot of mist.

You're not getting such a heart, Mikado. Wow.

That's adorable. I mean, it's hard to make a themed roller coaster. Usually, what you're just trying to do is get people up and down hills and lots of thrills and lots of bumps and lots of curves and all kinds of fun things. But it's hard to tell a story on a ride while you're also moving down a track. And so I'm always impressed when a ride is able to do that. And so that's why I like Hiccup's wing gliders the most. I do really love Stardust Racers, the roller coaster that's in Celestial Park, and it is a wonderful, super thrilling experience, but there's just something about mist on a ride.

They like mist in that park.

Mist?

Like wet mist.

Not a fan?

No, I'm a big fan. The more mist, the better. There's a ton of mist at Epic Universe. They use it everywhere.

It's hot down there.

That's true, too. During the summer, you want more of that mist, trust me. But I also like a roller coaster track that moves next to the water and moves close to the ground and all of these things that you're able to see while you're on the ride and experience. They did a really great job with Hiccups wing gliders, and that's one of the big reasons I like it more than the much more thrilling ride in the park.

Brooks, I want to back up something you mentioned before, which is that Stardust Racers, this coaster, it's currently closed, and it's closed because of a tragic incident that recently happened on that ride. Can you talk a little bit about what happened? We're here, we're talking about all the ways that theme parks can be fun and exciting, and I just wonder how a place like Epic Universal or any theme or amusement park, things through the effect that something like this has on the people that are planning to go The people that work there.

People that work there. Yeah. A man died on that coaster, and it's gotten pretty icky pretty quickly. Other people have come forward to say they felt unsafe on that attraction. They'll do an investigation, and it's you want to feel safe. That just being in the news infects the feeling everywhere. It takes you out of, this is a joyful, happy, I don't have to worry about the real-world place, and suddenly you do, right?

Yeah. I mean, part of the appeal of roller coasters, I think, to me and to some, is a feeling of controlled danger. You want it to feel slightly dangerous, but it also has to feel safe.

Right.

Let's turn to something else. The both of you have talked about theming, which once you say it, immediately makes sense in to amusement parks and theme parks in particular. But I would like to ask a little bit more. Disney has always been the Disney theme. That's built in from the ground up. But it feels like in other amusement parks, the focus on IP has gotten more intense in recent years. Brooks, do you feel like that matches just the general curve of how Hollywood in particular has thought about what they have, what we can make money off, how we can squeeze every dime out of these things that we own. How important is for these big parts, the IP-ification?

It's increasingly the entire strategy. It used to be that Disneyland, Disney Parks, had rides that were quirky and weird and one-offs, and that increasingly is not the case anymore. They That's because they've realized that younger audiences, in particular, care more about rides that they know. The classic example or biggest example is probably the Tower of Terror at Disneyland was twilight Zone themed. Disney had to pay rights to twilight Zone, which it didn't own, and they didn't like doing that. They realized that kids had no idea what the twilight Zone was. It was a tragedy. Tragedy. They Disney rethemed it around Marvel, guardians of the Galaxy, and the attraction has become twice as popular since then.

But at Disney World, they did keep the twilight Zone Tower of Territory.

They can't use the Marvel Superheros in Florida because Universal has those rights. That's why. Oh, my God. I know. But, yeah, I mean, increasingly, these big media companies, mostly Universal, MBC Universal, and Disney, have had enormous struggles in their core businesses of movies and television as we've all moved to streaming. Theme parks have become their most reliable growth business. In 2024, Disney and Universal had a combined $10 billion in profit from their theme park divisions. A decade earlier, it was $2 billion. If you're a shareholder, Looking at growth in various businesses, that's something where you want to put more money, and the companies are doing that, and that's a way to expand the value of movies. One of the reasons that Universal sold Wicked so hard, Wicked, Wicked, Wicked, was to make the movie a success, but also, they haven't announced anything, but you can bet there will be a Wicked land.

Yeah, it'll be an Emerald City corner of one of their parks. Correct. Just to be clear, I am offended that twilight Zone is no longer intellectual property that means anything to the kids.

For all the kids listening, you need to watch some New Year's Eve twilight Zone marathons. I now go to the parks primarily for my job. I'm usually reporting when I'm in them. But I'm definitely, as a fan, I'm definitely someone who wants to go to have the nostalgia button pushed, whether it's a ride I rode as a kid, still being that same ride. The Tiki Room at Disneyland is popular with no one except me.

It's popular. Hey, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Room. I got it in my head.

They would love, I think, to use that space for something else. But yeah, it is distressing as an older person when you see some of the classic stuff fading away.

I feel like I still have nostalgia for theme parks that I went to when I was younger, amusement parks. But now the nostalgia is not for the experience. The nostalgia is for the movie that you watch. The nostalgia is for the Finding Nemo submarine, not the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea submarine.

Right. Although maybe in the past, I mean, there was 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea movie, so it could have been the same, but it's heightened is the point, right?

All right, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to talk roller coasters.

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So, Mikado, we're going to get into it now. Are you ready?

Let's get into it.

I know you are the roller coaster meister. How many roller coasters have you been on? Do you keep track of a book, a spreadsheet.

Yeah, it's a website called Coaster Count.

Coaster Count? Yes. Okay. We are doing free ads, apparently.

You can go on there, and it has all the parks listed and all of the rides that have ever been in that park. I started using it long after I started riding things. That's why I can't remember if I rode certain things at certain parks. Got it. I don't have a completely accurate count at the moment. I would say Generally speaking, more than 200.

More than 200? Yes. That would put you probably in the top 5% of people who have ridden roller coasters, I would imagine.

I would imagine so, yeah.

I feel like every year, I hear about some trip or another that you took to go ride roller coasters. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, this year, you went to Europe?

Yeah, you're right about that.

What are the stats on that?

We spent a week in Europe. It was one week, seven parks, Four Countries, 100 Rides.

That's a great movie poster tagline right there.

I'm just going to do a lot of Fanny pack holding on that trip if I was alive. I don't want my hair messed up. I don't want to get wet. I don't want to feel sick. I'm happy to stand and watch.

They weren't all roller coasters, so there are things that you could have ridden as well, Brooks. We also do like a good Log Flume and a River Rapids ride and what enthusiasts call a dark ride, which is basically an indoor ride, like an indoor roller coaster or an indoor boat ride.

You have to tell me, it would be journalistic malpractice not to ask you in this chair, what are some of your favorite roller coasters?

Well, I'm happy to talk about it. One of my absolute favorites It's a ride at Magic Mountain that is now called Twisted Colossus. They took the old wooden Colossus ride, and this company called Rocky Mountain Construction, one of the big things that they do is go and take old wooden coasters and retrofit them with these customized steel tracks that they make. They did that with the old Colossus and created this new ride, Twisted Colossus. Now, it's this amazing racing coaster where- So it's two cars, you can see each other? Two cars, you can see each other. There's one element on it that's called a high five, where both tracks go sideways, right? And so you go through that part of the track sideways. So, yeah, that- It sounds so great. It blew my mind the first time I wrote it. And I just, even to this day, I'm super I'm thrilled by that roller coaster. Then another one that actually just became a very recent favorite is a ride that I just rode this year. It's at this park in Belgium called Plopsaland. Plopsaland? Plopsaland. Okay. Yes.

It competes with Schlitterbach in Texas for the most awkwardly named theme park.

Plopsaland is this really fun park in Belgium. They did just put in this incredible roller coaster called the Ride to Happiness.

In case it's not subtle.

Yeah. Hey, it's one of the great roller coaster ride names, I think, actually. But it is a spinning launch coaster. So the seats on the ride actually rotate, and then the ride also launches you into these hills and into loops and everything. But one of the cool things is right out of the gate, the train does an immediate inversion. They have a corkscrew or a twist right at the beginning of the ride. And so while you're spinning, you also do this upside down part, and then you go off into the launch. So there's a lot going on. If you like a lot of combinations of thrills, this ride just packs them in.

You know when we talk about the limits of human ingenuity and we talk about going to space, and we talk about all the things that we haven't done yet, it's just I feel like it's all in roller coaster design here. That's where all the great creativity is going.

I love how deep you go, Mikado. You know the manufacturers, you know the advancements in track technology.

You look at schematics before the roller coaster is out? How are you tracking the construction of these things beforehand?

Oh, definitely. When Epic Universe was being built, there were a lot of channels out there. There was a YouTube channel called Theme Park Stop that was tracking the building of Epic Universe, and they would go and look at permits to say, It looks like this ride is probably going to be this, and this is where it's going to be. And I was following that stuff for a year, at least a year before that park opened. But yes, I do track the manufacturers and watch a lot of the on-ride videos, which are cool, but they don't really capture the full experience of what your body goes through on a ride. Sure, of course. You can go and watch the ride to happiness on-ride video, but it is not going to be anything like your body twisting and spinning and going upside down.

I think there are lots of people, Macabre out who, for physical reasons, whatever, can't get on roller coasters. There are people who are also afraid to get on roller coasters and who look at someone like you, maybe me, maybe Brooks, is this person and says, Why would you do this? Why would you wait online for 45 minutes to feel scared or to feel these feelings? What is the appeal of roller coasters for you?

Well, one of the things I really like about it is that it's a control rolled, thrill. I do like thrills, but I don't like all thrills. I'm not into, say, bungee jumping or skydiving, which feels a little bit scarier to me because if I'm bungee jumping, it's just me. And so if something goes wrong, I'm the only person paying for it. But the parks do their absolute best to make sure that these rides are safe and secure. And I feel pretty confident of that most the time that I'm riding a roller coaster. But it's still taking me to do something that I otherwise just wouldn't be able to do, taking me up a giant hill and then dropping me down and upside down and into loops and everything. That's the big appeal to me, this controlled way to have a little bit of chaos in my life.

I could ask you a question or you could just respond to it.

Well, Brookes, why don't you like that?

I used to like roller coasters, but I guess my fear or hesitation goes back to the carnival, to be honest. I could ride any ride I wanted, my parents said, but I could never ride the Zyclon, which was a roller coaster on the carnival because my parents considered that unsafe. There's probably some Did you see things?

Is that... Did you see things as a traveling carnival? For sure, yes. That makes you...

This was the '80s, and a traveling carnival, and the inspections weren't what they are today. I guess there's lingering trepidation around some of this. I also just think, I do not think this is fun. I'm glad. I'm excited to be doing something I could never do otherwise. I only am thinking humans were not made to do this. Humans were not made to do this. When I went to report on Epic Universe, the first ride the chairman of Universal Parks wanted to take me on was that big roller coaster. You did it. I did it, and I was somewhat embarrassed to let out a scream next to the Universal chairman as in my New York Times costume.

Then it worked. What you're telling us is the ride worked for you.

And I'm here to tell the tale.

Mikado, what is the feeling that you're looking for? Part of the reason that I go on roller coasters, it is that controlled chaos or that controlled fear. Very often on a roller coaster or other rides that go very high, it is not a lie when I say, I think I am going to die. But it is that chasing of an excitement that you just cannot get when you are living your normal life. That is what I'm looking for.

Yeah, I would say that feeling of turbulence on the airplane, that moment where your stomach drops, that's what I'm looking for. Oh, my.

This is a turbulence guy over here.

I'm holding on to the arms of my chair right now. This is making me very uncomfortable.

I love turbulence on an airplane. You know what? So do I. There we go. Yeah, I want that thrilling stomach-drop feeling That's the big thing that I'm chasing. I do like big drops more than I like inversions. Inversions are cool. Loops? Loops, yeah. It's cool to go upside down, and I couldn't tell you how many times I've gone upside down. That's not as fun to me as that drop feeling.

It's interesting. When I think back on the rides that I really loved when I was a kid, I I still think I have the most nostalgia for those story-based rides. They didn't have any big thrills, the type of big thrills that you're talking about, Mikado. The Haunted mansion, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, Peter Pan. These rides that would just seem so boring to kids today. To me, they were, they remained just magical.

That's actually a good point of how they're changing, actually, because we love those rides, and they're still beloved. But increasingly, they're building not just... It's not just about IP, but it's how they're constructing rides, which are to be more interactive, like you're in a video game, you're supposed to play against other players. That's all because younger guests don't get as excited. Yeah. Sitting in a boat in it's a small world, being amazed at the little robotic figures used to blow you away. Blow kids away doesn't really do the same.

Yeah. There is a... I went to Universal Studios in Hollywood, and as there is in Orlando, there's a little Harry Potter corner, and there's a ride there that is as much about the screens that are around you, like you're moving around in this... You're hanging, and then you're moving around to different parts of a giant screen, and there's fire effects and all this stuff. And yeah, it's like the interactivity of it, the oviness of it, almost. In both of them, Nintendo Parks, I believe there's a Mario Kart ride that also involves a gamification of the ride. You're not just riding the ride, you're also doing other things.

Is it virtual reality or augmented reality?

It's augmented reality. You have these visors that you put on and showing in the visors or things that you're shooting at while you're also on the ride.

I don't want to do this either, by the way.

I I don't want to do that either. I don't want to play a game while I'm on a ride. I want to ride the ride. Give me a ride that's interesting enough for me to just experience it without having to also shoot at things to have enjoyment with it. I don't like those rides too much.

Look at these three middle-aged men here talking about the way things used to be. This is great.

By the way, can I just make a point about the way things used to be? It used to be affordable. You Okay. The costs- Tell me about it. Yes. Have gone. I mean, it was like, bring the deed to your house. There was that guy who went viral this summer for posting the receipt of his family of five to the Disney Princess breakfast. It was like $938 or something for five people. Oh, my God. You're like, how can that be? Well, each person costs roughly $150 plus tax and tip. It's a a lot. I was curious looking up... Disney gets a lot of the attention for the prices because it's the biggest. I think it has 140 million turnstile clicks a year worldwide, and Universal has 60. It dwarf everybody else, so it fairly gets more attention or scrutiny for costs. But Six Flags Magic Mountain, a fast pass there costs for a Saturday, this Saturday, costs between $140 and $260 per person on top of admission. God. Right? Yeah. I can't afford that.

Then you'll be waiting in line, I guess. I guess so.

Look, I think we have acknowledged, and most families who ever consider going to Disney World in particular know that it is a bank breaker. It is quite expensive. Do either of you have any recommendations for people who want to go to a great amusement park, but don't want to have to sell a kidney in order to get there.

Yes. I found this one park in Pennsylvania called Knoebles, which is just- People love that park. It is an amazing park, and it was just wondrous the whole time I was there. One of the great things about it is that it's tucked away in the woods, but the parking is free, and then also it's free to get into the park, and then you just buy tickets to ride the ride. So now grandma can come. Now the whole family can come. People who don't ride anything, the purse holders, everyone can come and just enjoy the day. But then the rides are also really terrific. There's a wooden coaster there called Phoenix that is one of the absolute best that I've been on. And so it's nice to have a combination of fun rides, but also something that doesn't break the bank. A lot of the experience is totally free and just something you can go and do with your families. And that is the absolute opposite of Disney and Universal.

Can we give a shout out to the purseholders? I'm glad you brought this up.

Did you see me gulp? I was like, Oh, my God, you just called me a purse holder.

This is the person in every group or every family who when you all go to an amusement park, there's the one person who doesn't want to go on the roller coaster or the rides. To be real chill about it. They're like, I'll just hold everyone's bags. It's totally fine.

That's increasingly me.

Brooks, are there any smaller parks that you think are worthy of acclaim?

Dollywood.

I was going to ask about Dollywood.

Kitchen Forge, Tennessee. It needs a major shout out here. Have you ever been Mercado? Oh, yeah. I love that park.

It's amazing.

Before I went, and as a dolly person, you could probably guess, I thought Dollywood would be campy. I was looking for anatomically correct dollyparton coffee mugs maybe in the gift shop. It's actually very family-friendly and down home and country in the best possible way. They are known for topiaries and flowers. They've got the Craftsman's Village where you can see someone being a blacksmith and doing those kinds of old-fashioned crafts, and they make the best... They're known for cinnamon rolls. No one does a better cinnamon roll than Dollywood. Actually, they call it cinnamon bread, I believe.

They also do have very good roller coasters there, too. There's one called Lightning Rod, which is a wooden launch coaster that just goes out into the mountains and is just amazing. In addition to just having it be some fun, wholesome down home goodness, there are also some really good thrills there, too.

Fire Firechaser. That's a good one. Firechaser.

This is for both of you. What do you think makes a theme park in an amusement park great? Why do you go? Why do you think people go?

One of the things that really people go for, but they don't maybe realize, is there's this common bond among strangers. When the emotional buttons are pushed through a parade or fireworks or the theming that brings people closer together as strangers. I think that you want to go somewhere where the normal rules of life are suspended. You don't feel out of place as an adult, or maybe you feel less out of place as an adult wearing mouse ears or hugging Elsa or whatever. You can eat junk food before noon.

I go because of the rides, mainly. If a park has two fantastic roller coasters, three pretty good ones, then it's worth going to.

We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we'll finish up as we do every week with a little game. This podcast is supported by Metta. Instagram supports the initiative for an EU digital majority age requiring parental approval before teenagers can access online services. And so do experts. Leading teenage safety organizations across Europe, such as Parent Zone, say that a digital majority age could support and increase parental involvement across digital services, empowering parents to help keep teenagers safer. Learn more at Instagram. Com/parentalapproval. This Political Ad was brought to you by Instagram. Welcome, everyone, to the Sunday Special. I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm excited because today we're talking about one of my secret favorite things. It's not movies or books or TV, all of which, honestly, are some of my favorite things in the world. Instead, we are talking about amusement parks. All year round, Americans travel to Orlando, and Los Angeles, and Anaheim to go to some of the most famous theme parks around. And those who don't go there are likely going somewhere close to home, like the six flags that I used to go to in New Jersey. With me today to talk about Amusement Parks Across America is Brooks Barnes, who writes about Hollywood for the Times.

He's visited all 14 Disney theme parks around the world, and he also traveled with a carnival when he was younger, which is totally normal, no big deal. I have so many questions about it. Welcome, Brooks. Hello. Across from me is Mikado Murphy. Officially, he is a movie editor here. Unofficially, he is the Times roller coaster correspondent. He has published more pieces about roller coasters than any other writer in Times history. I have not fact-checked that, but it has to be true. Welcome, Mikado. Hey, Gilbert. Okay, Brooks, first things first. We have to get this the way, we need to talk about this. You grew up in a traveling carnival. Yes. Okay. Mikado is rolling his eyes. Not the old carnival story. He's not rolling that out again. Yes, I was not in a carnival. I was in an attraction myself. But my parents made a living by selling cotton candy and corn dogs. We traveled with the carnival called the Mighty Thomas Carnival. Okay. Through Canada, the Midwest, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, California. I feel at home in these chaotic, manufactured environments. How many years did you do that for? From the time I was born to the last season I worked for them was the summer after my freshman year in college.

Oh, my God. That's your entire job. I thought it was just a couple of years. No, no, no. So they sold Cotton Candy, but they didn't operate rides or anything. No rides. But you were around the people who operated rides, games. The Zipper, the Himalaya. I worked for them. I worked in the stands starting at a maybe younger age than I should disclose. Yeah, I don't get the impression there are a lot of... The law is a little fuzzy in these places. The law is a little fuzzy. But when I was younger, they worked nonstop, and I had free reign of the carnival. I had my little round I would make friends with the slim who ran the Ferris wheel and chief who ran the merry go round. I'd ride the sea dragon over and over and over again. I did my thing. Yet, growing up in that environment did not tire you out from wanting to experience. It turns out that when carnies have a vacation, they go to Disneyland. Is that true? That is true. Also, can we say carnies? Is that an acceptable term? I feel like I'm... You can. I Yes, of course.

You went to Disneyland, and you were like, Wow, this is a real- Yeah, because a carnival, everything packs up. Amusement parks were always fascinating to me in how organized it all was, and permanent. But also, it's just a chaotic environment, one that, as an adult now, I feel very comfortable in. The smell of the the popcorn, the music, the crying babies. Brooks, you totally lived my childhood dream. I couldn't... I left out all of the trauma. I'm sure. But yes, I couldn't imagine anything cooler than getting to work at a carnival all the time. But I grew up in a family that was very carnival-like, but we did not travel in a carnival. Nice. What was your relationship with Amusement Parks when you were a kid? Was it a family thing or Is it just your thing? With my family, I did come from a family of thrill-seekers. I grew up in Oklahoma, but we didn't have an amusement park in Oklahoma when I was growing up. Not a big one. My family would travel each summer to Fortworth. We had some cousins down there, and we would go to Six Flags Over Texas during the summer.

That was my big introduction to theme parks. I I grew up in New York, and we had something Rye Playland, which is a little theme park north of the Bronx where I grew up. On the boardwalk is where they were Zoltar, the little thing that makes Tom Hanks big and small in the movie Big was located. I went once to Disney when I was 10 years old. It was the only real vacation we ever took when I was a kid, and it was the biggest moment of my young life. I've been obsessed with recapturing that excitement ever since. I don't think I'll ever get there. Disney counts on that. Believe me. Disney counts on that. Oh, yeah. Now that I have a child, and my family's wallet is very aware of how much they count on it. It's just shocking how expensive it is, and yet it still remains this rite of passage for American families. Did either of you... Was Disney a thing for you, the idea of Disney, at least, when you were growing up? The idea of Disney was definitely a thing for me. Growing up, I always had fantasies and dreams of Disneyland just because there were all these distinct worlds, frontier land, fantasy land.

When I was growing up, because I didn't get to go to all of these places, I actually created a theme park myself. I had this park that was called-In your mind? I created in my and then I drew it all out. The park was called Fun World. Great name. Can't wait to go.

The founder of the park was HDR Fun. This is all very a lot of Disney theft here, but I do recall I created the park map, all of the rides, and then I drew out a number of the rides in the park, too. That's amazing. Yeah, that That was a part of my childhood because I didn't get to travel to parks as much. I feel like now they have video games like Theme Park Simulator, Roller Coaster Tycoon, and that you were doing it before all of that, just with pen and paper. I was doing Analog Roller Coaster Tycoon. My version of you drawing your Theme Park was in anticipation of our trip to Disney, which also coincided with the opening of Universal Studios Florida. It was in 1990, so I got to see some of those really rides that no longer exist. The Jaws ride. The Jaws ride, the Alfred Hitchcock experience, like murder She Wrote. There's just a bunch of stuff that are so corny now. There was a murder She Wrote ride? There was a murder She Wrote theatrical experience. Oh, my goodness. It was one of the first things you saw on the main street as you were walking in through Universal Studios.

You would sit down and they would talk to you about foley sound and the mechanics of-The click of her heels on it. The click of her heels on it. And movie making and stuff like that. Anyway, Before we went, I was obsessed with making sure that we got to every ride in the most efficient way possible. So my version of drawing a theme park was charting out a course throughout all of Disney World. Go to Tomorrowland first, go to Spaceland, do all that stuff that now people do on very intense websites. And it was an odd combination of excitement for a theme park and also like real spreadsheet nonsense that a 10-year-old would do. I feel like it has led to where I am today in my life, where everything needs to be as efficient as possible. Visiting a park now tends to involve spreadsheet nonsense, to be honest. Gilbert, that is exactly how I go to parks now. It is very much-Yes. My brother in arms. Yes. What you were doing when you were a kid is the exact same thing that I do now. It really does require Herculean efforts, sometimes, just to make sure you make it on a ride at all.

It feels like we're at It's been an important moment for a theme park business, here in America, at least. Big thing happened this summer. Finally happened after, I feel like, a year of commercials that I was seeing on TV. Universal Studios opened up its new park in Orlando, Epic Universe. I'm wondering, first of all, what the heck is Epic Universe, and why is it a big deal for Universal? Sure. So, Epic Universe, they spent at least $7 billion to build it. $7 billion? Is that normal? That's normal. That's conservative. That's the admitted amount. It's a new park near across the interstate freeway from the older Universal Studios complex, which is two parks and a water park. Do we count water parks as theme parks? I do. We definitely count water parks as theme parks. The reason Epik is such a big deal is that it's investment. It's Universal trying to be more Disney. The vast majority, families go to Disney World, and Universal is an added day or a day and a half. Universal wants to flip that. You come to Universal and you do an added day at Disney. It's a big deal for Universal in its evolution, but it's also a big deal in terms of igniting, it sounds cliché because it's true, theme parkour.

Disney's pouring money into Disney World to remain competitive. And Epik is reflective of their broader business at Universal. They're building a new park in the UK. They're building a kids park in Texas. They're expanding in California. And so Disney, even though it acts like it doesn't even notice Universal, why would we think about them? It keenly notices So. And what are the different parts of Epic Universe? Because it has several lands, and each of them is organized around a movie or a piece of intellectual property. Ip. Ip. Yes. What are they? There's the Isle of Berk, which is how to train your dragon. There is the main part, which they call Celestial Park, which is a giant roller coaster and dancing fountains and and that thing.

I'm sure Mikado has opinions about the roller coaster, which is currently closed because there is a mishap on it. Then the other areas are Nintendo-themed, which is a casino for five-year-olds. I've been very curious about Super Nintendo World or whatever it's called, but I also feel like it might be for people much, much younger than me. I'm exaggerating, but it was more than I could take. There's coins. It's a lot. There's a world for Harry Potter, of course. Universal has Harry Potter in most of its parks. What's the other one? The other one's Dark Universe. Dark Universe, yes. Which is classic monsters like Dracula and Frankenstein. That actually has one of the best rides in the whole park, right? Yeah, Monsters Unleashed. That one is really, really fun. You get to meet a lot of the Universal Monsters on the ride. You rode all the rides, and you liked the family coaster, which doesn't do any loops. That surprised me because you're Mr. Adrenaline. I do love adrenaline, but I also really love theming. That ride, Hiccup's Wingliders, is a wonderfully themed ride. It's so great. Whether or not you're into how to train your dragon, it's just a really fun experience.

And you get to see Toothless on the ride, and Toothless presses his little jaw down to launch you into the coaster. It's just super fun. There's a lot of mist. You're now getting such a heart, Mikado. Wow. That's adorable. I mean, it's hard to make a themed roller coaster. Usually, what you're just trying to do is get people up and down hills and lots of thrills and lots of bumps and lots of curves and all kinds of fun things. But it's hard to tell a story on a ride while you're also moving down a track. I'm always impressed when a ride is able to do that. That's why I like Hiccup's wing gliders the most. I do really love Stardust Racers, the roller coaster that's in Celestial Park, and it is a wonderful, super thrilling experience, but there's just something about mist on a ride. They like mist in that park. Mist? Like wet mist. Mist, yes. Not a fan? No, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan. The more mist, the better. There's a ton of mist at Epic Universe. They use it everywhere. It's hot down there. That's true, too. During the summer, you want more of that mist, trust me.

But I also like a roller coaster track that moves next to the water and moves close to the ground and all of these things that you're able to see while you're on the ride and experience. So they did a really great job with Hiccups wing gliders, and that's one of the big reasons I like it more than the much more thrilling ride in the park. Brooks, I want to back up to something you mentioned before, which is that Stardust Racers, this coaster, it's currently closed, and it's closed because of a tragic incident that recently happened on that ride. Can you talk a little bit about what happened? We're here, We're talking about all the ways that theme parks can be fun and exciting. I just wonder how a place like Epic Universal or any theme or amusement park, things through the effect that something like this has on the people that are planning to go there. And the people that work there. People that work there. Yeah. A man died on that coaster, and it's gotten pretty icky pretty quickly. Other people have come forward to They felt unsafe on that attraction. They'll do an investigation, and it's you want to feel safe.

That just being in the news infects the feeling everywhere. It takes you out of, This is a joyful, happy, I don't have to worry about the real-world place, and suddenly you do, right? Yeah. I mean, part of the appeal of roller coasters, I think, to me and to some, is a feeling of controlled danger. You want it to feel slightly dangerous, but it also has to feel safe. Right. Let's turn to something else. The both of you have talked about theming, which once you say it immediately makes sense in relation to amusement parks and theme parks in particular. But I would like to ask a little bit more. Disney has always been the Disney theme. That's built in from the ground up. But it feels like in other amusement parks that The focus on IP has gotten more intense in recent years. And, Brooks, do you feel like that matches just the general curve of how Hollywood, in particular, has thought about what they have, what we can make money off, how we can squeeze every dime out of these things that we own? How important is for these big parts, the IP-ification? It's increasingly the entire strategy.

It used to be that Disneyland, Disney parks, had rides that were quirky and weird and one-offs, and that increasingly is not the case anymore. That's because they've realized that younger audiences, in particular, care more about rides that they know. The classic example or biggest example is probably the Tower of Terror at Disneyland was twilight zone themed. Disney had to pay rights to the to twilight zone, which it didn't own, and they didn't like doing that. And they realized that kids had no idea what the twilight zone was. Tragedy. Tragedy. And so they, Disney rethemed it around Marvel, guardians of the Galaxy. And the attraction has become twice as popular since then. But at Disney World, they did keep The twilight Zone Tower of Terribles. They can't use the Marvel Superheros in Florida because Universal has those rights. That's why. Oh, my God. I know. But, yeah, I mean, increasingly, these big media companies, mostly Universal, MBC Universal, and Disney, have had enormous struggles in their core businesses of movies and television as we've all moved to streaming, right? And theme parks have become their most viable growth business. In 2024, Disney and Universal had a combined $10 billion in profit from their theme park divisions.

A decade earlier, it was $2 billion. If you're a shareholder, looking at growth in various businesses, that's something where you want to put more money, and the companies are doing that, and that's a way to expand the value of movies. One of the reasons that Universal sold Wicked so hard, right? Wicked, wicked, wicked, was to make the movie a success. But also, they haven't announced anything, but you can bet there will be a wicked land. Yeah. It'll be an Emerald City corner of one of their parks. Correct. Just to be clear, I am offended that twilight Zone is no longer intellectual property that means anything to the kids. For all the kids listening, you need to watch some New Year's Eve twilight Zone marathons. I now go to the parks primarily for my job. I'm usually reporting when I'm in them. But I'm definitely, as a fan, I'm definitely someone who wants to go to have the nostalgia button pushed, whether it's a ride I rode as a kid. Still being that same ride, the Tiki Room at Disneyland is popular with no one except me. It's popular. Hey, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Tiki, Room.

I got in my head. They would love, I think, to use that space for something else. But, yeah, it is distressing as an older person when you see some of the classic stuff fading away. I feel like I still have nostalgia for theme parks that I went to when I was younger, amusement parks. But now the nostalgia is not for the experience. The nostalgia is for the movie that you watch. The nostalgia is for the Finding Nemo submarine, not the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea submarine. Right. Although maybe in the past, there was 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea movie, so it could have been the same, but it's heightened is the point. All right, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to talk roller coasters. This podcast is supported by Metta. Instagram supports the initiative for an EU digital majority age, requiring parental approval before teenagers can access online services. And so do experts. Leading teenage safety organizations across Europe, such as Parent Zone, say that a digital majority age could support and increase parental involvement across digital services, empowering parents to help keep teenagers safer. Learn more at Instagram.

Com/ parental approval. This political ad was brought to you by Instagram. Hey, hold up. This is your minute. It's your minute in this life on this day. It's your day to play, to play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore. It's your morning to share, your weekend to shape, to cook, to soak, to listen, to to wait. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind, you know? It's your place, your country, your life, to love, to rise, to dream, to change. It's your world as much as anyone's. It's your world to understand. The New York Times. Find out more at nytimes. Com/yourworld. So, Mikado, we're going to get into it now. Are you ready? Let's get into it. I know you are the roller coaster meister. How many roller coasters have you been on? Do you keep track in a book, a spreadsheet? Yeah, it's a website called Coaster Count. Coaster Count? Yes. Okay. We are doing free ads, apparently. And you can go on there and it has all the parks listed and all of the rides that have I've ever been in that park. I started using it long after I started riding things.

That's why I can't remember if I rode certain things at certain parts. So I don't have a completely accurate count at the moment. I would say, generally speaking, more than 200. More than 200? Yes. That would put you probably in the top 5% of people who have ridden roller coasters, I would imagine. I would imagine so, yeah. I feel like every year I hear about some or another that you took to go ride roller coasters? I think, correct me if I'm wrong, this year you went to Europe? Yeah, you're right about that. What are the stats on that? We spent a week in Europe. It was one week, seven parks, four countries, 100 rides. That's a great movie poster tagline right there. I'm just going to do a lot of Fanny pack holding on that trip if I was alive. My hair messed up. I don't want to wet. I don't want to feel sick. I'm happy to stand and watch. They weren't all roller coasters, so there are things that you could have ridden as well, Brooks. We also do like a good log flume and a river rapids ride and what enthusiasts call a dark ride, which is basically an indoor ride, like an indoor roller coaster or an indoor boat ride.

You have to tell me It would be journalistic malpractice not to ask you in this chair, what are some of your favorite roller coasters? Well, I'm happy to talk about it. So one of my absolute favorites, it's a ride at Magic Mountain that is now called Twisted Colossus. So they took the old wooden Colossus ride, and this company called Rocky Mountain Construction, one of the big that they do is go and take old wooden coasters and retrofit them with these customized steel tracks that they make. And so they did that with the old Colossus and created this new ride, Twisted Colossus. And now it's this amazing racing coaster where- So it's two cars, you can see each other? Two cars, you can see each other. There's one element on it that's called a high five, where the track, both tracks go sideways, right? And so you go through that part of the track sideways. So, yeah, that... It sounds so great. It blew my mind the first time I rode it. And I just... Even to this day, I'm super thrilled by that roller coaster. And then another one that actually just became a very recent favorite is a ride that I just rode this year.

It's at this park in Belgium called Plopsaland, and Plopsaland? Plopsaland. Okay. Yes. It competes with Schlitterbach in Texas for the most awkwardly named theme park. Plopsaland is this really fun park in Belgium, and they did just put in this incredible roller coaster called The Ride to Happiness. In case it's not subtle. Yeah. Hey, it's one of the great roller coaster ride names, I think, actually. But But it is a spinning launch coaster. The seats on the ride actually rotate, and then the ride also launches you into these hills and into loops and everything. But one of the cool things is right out of the gate, the train does an immediate inversion. They have a corkscrew or a twist right at the beginning of the ride. While you're spinning, you also do this upside down part, and then you go off into the launch. So there's a lot going on. If you like a lot of combinations of thrills, this ride just packs them in. You know, when we talk about the limits of human ingenuity, and we talk about going to space, and we talk about all the things that we haven't done yet, it's just I feel like it's all in roller coaster design here.

That's where all the great creativity is going. I love how deep you go, Mikado. You know the manufacturers, you know the advancements in track technology. You look at schematics before the roller coaster is out? How are you tracking the construction of these things beforehand? Oh, definitely. When Epic Universe was being built, there were a lot of channels out there. There was a YouTube channel called Theme Park Stop that was tracking the building of Epic Universe, and They would go and look at permits to say, It looks like this ride is probably going to be this, and this is where it's going to be. I was following that stuff for a year, at least a year before that park opened. But yes, I do track the manufacturers and watch a lot of the on-ride videos, which are cool, but they don't really capture the full experience of what your body goes through Sure, of course. On a ride. I mean, you can go and watch the ride to happiness on ride video, but it is not going to be anything like your body twisting and spinning and going upside down. Yeah. I think there are lots of people, Mikado, who, for physical reasons, whatever, can't get on roller coasters.

There are people who are also afraid to get on roller coasters and who look at someone like you, maybe me, maybe Brooks, is this person and says, Why would you do this? It Why would you wait online for 45 minutes to feel scared or to feel these feelings? What is the appeal of roller coasters for you? Well, one of the things I really like about it is that it's a controlled thrill. I do like thrills, but I don't like all thrills. I'm not into, say, bungee jumping or skydiving, which feels a little bit scarier to me because if I'm bungee jumping, it's It's just me. If something goes wrong, I'm the only person paying for it. But the parks do their absolute best to make sure that these rides are safe and secure, and I feel pretty confident of that most of the time that I'm riding a roller coaster. But it's still taking me to do something that I otherwise just wouldn't be able to do, taking me up a giant hill and then dropping me down and upside down and into loops and everything. That's the big appeal to me, this controlled way to have a little bit of chaos in my life.

I could ask you a question or you could just respond to it. Well, so, Brookes, why don't you like that? I used to like roller coasters, but I guess my fear or hesitation goes back to the carnival, to be honest. I could ride any ride I wanted, my parents said, but I could never ride the Zyclon, which was a roller coaster on the carnival because my parents considered that unsafe. There's probably some- Did you see things? Did you see things as a traveling carnival? For sure, yes. That makes you- This was the '80s, and a traveling carnival, and the inspections weren't what they are today. I guess There's lingering trepidation around some of this. I also just think, I do not think this is fun. I'm glad. I'm excited to be doing something I could never do otherwise. I only am thinking, humans were not made to do this. When I went to report on Epic Universe, the first ride the chairman of Universal Parks wanted to take me on was that big roller coaster. You did it. I did it, and I was somewhat embarrassed to let out a scream next to the Universal Chairman as in my New York Times costume.

Then it worked. What you're telling us is that the ride worked for you. I'm here to tell the tale. Mikado, what is the feeling that you're looking for? Part of the reason that I go on roller coasters, it is that controlled chaos or that controlled fear. Very often on a roller coaster or other rides that go very high, it is not a lie when I say, I think I am going to die. But it is that chasing of an excitement that you just cannot get when you are living your normal life. That is what I am looking for. Yeah, I would say that feeling of turbulence on the airplane, that moment where your stomach drops, that's what I'm looking for. Oh, my. This is a turbulence guy over here. I'm holding on to the arms of my chair right now. This is making me very uncomfortable. I love turbulence on an airplane. You know what? So do I. There we go. Yeah, I want that thrilling stomach-drop feeling. That's the big thing that I'm chasing. I do like big drops more than I like inversions. Inversions are cool. Loops? Loops, yeah. It's cool to go upside down.

I I couldn't tell you how many times I've gone upside down. That's not as fun to me as that drop feeling. It's interesting. When I think back on the rides that I really loved when I was a kid, I still think I have the most nostalgia for those story-based rides. They didn't have any big thrills, the type of big thrills that you're talking about, Mikado. The Haunted mansion, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, Peter Pan. These rides that would just seem so boring to kids today. To me, they were, they remained just magical. That's actually a good point of how they're changing, actually, because we love those rides, and they're still beloved, right? But increasingly, they're building not just... It's not just about IP, but it's how they're constructing rides, which are to be more interactive, like you're in a video game, you're supposed to play against other players, and It's all because younger guests don't get as excited. Yeah. Watching, sitting in a boat. It's a small world. Being amazed at the little robotic figures used to blow you away. Blow kids away doesn't really do the same. Yeah. I went to Universal Studios in Hollywood, and as there is in Orlando, there's a little Harry Potter corner, and there's a ride there that is as much the screens that are around you, like you're moving around in this, you're hanging, and then you're moving around to different parts of a giant screen, and there's fire effects and all this stuff.

And yeah, it's like the interactivity of it, the moviness of it, almost. In both of them, Nintendo Parks, I believe there's a Mario Kart ride that also involves a gamification of the ride. You're not just riding the ride, you're also doing other things. Is it virtual or It's augmented reality or augmented reality? I forget, McCart. It's augmented reality. Augmented. You have these visors that you put on and showing in the visors or things that you're shooting at while you're also on the ride. I don't want to do this either, by the way. I don't want to do that either. I don't want to play a game while I'm on a ride. I want to ride the ride. Give me a ride that's interesting enough for me to just experience it without having to also shoot at things, to I have enjoyment with it. I don't like those rides too much. Look at these three middle-aged men here talking about the way things used to be. This is great. By the way, can I just make a point about the way things used to be? It used to be affordable. The costs-Tell me about it. Have gone.

It was like, Bring the deed to your house. There was that guy who went viral this summer for posting the receipt of his family of five to the Disney Princess Breakfast. It was like $938 or something for five people. Oh, my God. You're like, How can that be? Well, each person costs roughly $150 plus tax and tip. It's a lot. I was curious looking up... Disney gets a lot of the attention for the prices because it's the biggest. I think it has 140 million turnstile clicks a year worldwide, and Universal has Magic 60. It dwarf everybody else, so it fairly gets more attention or scrutiny for costs. But Six Flags Magic Mountain, a fast pass there costs for a Saturday. This Saturday costs between $140 and $260 per person on top of admission. God. Right? Yeah. I can't afford that. Then you'll be waiting in line, I guess. I guess so. Look, I think we have acknowledged and most families who ever consider going to Disney World in particular know that it is a bank breaker. It is quite expensive. Do either of you have any recommendations for people who want to go to a great amusement park but don't want to have to sell a kidney in order to get there?

Yes. I found this one park in Pennsylvania called Knoebles, which is just- People love that park. It is an amazing park. Park, and it was just wondrous the whole time I was there. One of the great things about it is that it's tucked away in the woods, but the parking is free, and then also it's free to get into the park, and then you just buy tickets to ride the ride. So now grandma can come. Now the whole family can come. People who don't ride anything, the purse holders, everyone can come and just enjoy the day. But then the Rides are also really terrific. There's a wooden coaster there called Phoenix that is one of the absolute best that I've been on. It's nice to have a combination of fun rides, but also something that doesn't break the bank. A lot of the experience is totally free and just something you can go and do with your families. That is the absolute opposite of Disney and Universal. Can we give a shout out to the purseholders? I'm glad you brought this up. I was Did you see me gulp? I was like, Oh, my God, he just called me a purse holder.

This is the person in every group or every family who when you all go to an amusement park, there's the one person who doesn't want to go on the roller coaster or the rides and to be real chill about it. They're like, I'll just hold everyone's bags. It's totally fine. That's increasingly me. Brooks, are there any smaller parks that you think are worthy of acclaim? Dollywood. I was going to ask about Dollywood. Kitchen Forge, see needs a major shout out here. Have you ever been Makata? Oh, yeah. I love that park.

It's amazing. Before I went, and as a dolly person, you could probably guess, I thought dollywood would be campy. I was looking for anatomically correct dolly Parton coffee mugs, maybe, in the gift shop. It's actually very family-friendly, and down home and country in the best possible way. They are known for topiaries and flowers. They've got the Craftsman's Village, where you can see someone being a blacksmith and doing those kinds of old-fashioned crafts. They make the best. They're known for cinnamon rolls. No one does a better cinnamon roll than Dollywood. Actually, they call it cinnamon bread, I believe. They also do have very good roller coasters there, too. There's one called Lightning Rod, which is a wooden launch coaster that just goes out into the mountains and is just amazing. In addition to just having it be some fun, wholesome downhome goodness, there are also some really good thrills there, too. Fire chaser. That's a good one. Fire chaser. This is for both of you. What do you think makes a theme park in a amusement park great? Why do you go? Why do you think people go? One of the things that really people go for, but they don't maybe realize, is there's this common bond among strangers when the emotional buttons are pushed through a parade or fireworks or the theming that brings people closer together as strangers.

I think that you want to go somewhere where the normal rules of life are suspended. You don't feel out of place as an adult or Maybe you feel less out of place as an adult wearing mouse ears or hugging Elsa or whatever. You can eat junk food before noon. I go because of the rides, mainly. If a park has two fantastic roller coasters, three pretty good ones, then it's worth going to. We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we'll finish up as we do every week with a little game. This podcast is supported by Metta.

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Hi, I'm Joel from the New York Times Games team, and I'm out here talking to people about games.

What's your favorite game? The Mini Connections. The Aircross vibe. Strands.

What's your vibe when you're playing one of our games?

It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive way. It just scratches an itch in my brain. All of these games are so fun because a little 5 to 10 minute break. I love these games. Yeah.

You can play all New York Times games at nytimes. Com/games or in our games app.

We're talking this week about theme parks, about roller coasters, and we've reached our final segment, which, as it is every week, is a game. So it seems silly to me to spend all this time talking about roller coasters and not ride a roller coaster. Sadly, we cannot do that. I talked to the bosses here. They said it was, a stupid idea for the three of us to record this episode on a roller coaster. So instead, we have designed a game today that is a roller coaster. Let me explain. It's a quiz-themed roller coaster. We're calling it the Roller Quizster. Each round of the game is named after a component or part of a roller coaster. I think it'll become clear what I'm talking about as we go. All right? Are you guys ready? Yes. Is your lap bar down? Have you removed all loose items from your person?

My glasses are not coming off.

Have you taken your glasses off because they're going to fly off and hit someone down below. Are you ready? Okay, we're going to leave the station. First up, of course, is the Lift Hill. This is the part of the coaster where you get dragged slowly up to the top of an enormous hill in anticipation builds. In this round, I want each of you to name a ride that you would find at a theme park other than a roller coaster. You're going to go back and forth, and the first person to blank or repeat an answer loses. Mikado.

Log flume.

Dark ride.

Tilt a whirl.

Swing.

Ferris wheel.

God damn it. I can't say that.

Ricardo, you have a point. You have a point. Here comes the big drop. In this round, I'm going to give you the definition of a word, and you will give me the word. The answers all have a common theme. Another word for autumn. Mercado. Fall. Correct. To jump headfirst into water. Mercado. Dive. Dive. To use a rubber suction device to A mug, a drain or pipe.

Brooke's.

Plumb? That is a fruit. The answer is plunge. Plunge. Plunge. You were doing the motion. It had a P. You were doing the motion. Nike's logo. Mikado. Swoosh, swoosh. Finally, one of the most popular cereals in America, at least when I was a kid. Fruit Blank. Mikado. Loops. Loops. We are headed for some loops right now. I'm going to play a famous musical loop, and you're going to tell me any song that that loop has appeared in. Here's the first one. Mercado.

Can't Touch This.

Can't Touch This by M. C. Hammer. That is correct. Second loop. Mikado.

Harder, bester, faster, stronger.

You were almost there. Harder, better, faster, stronger.

Harder, better, faster, stronger. Not bester. Come on. I'm a journalist.

My favorite word. Third loop. Mikado.

Hi, my name is...

Correct. Now it is time to go through a corkscrew. I'm going to give you a variety of wine, and you tell me whether or not it is real. Alianico. Mercado. Not. It is real.

Good. You finally got one wrong.

Next wine, Blau Frankisch. Brooke's. Real. Real, that is correct. Next wine, Muvedra. Mucado. Not real. It is real. Oh, my gosh. I don't drink.

Neither do I. Babich. Brux. Not real.

It is real. And final, Grillo. Mucado. Real. Real. It was a corksrue. They're all real wines. Okay. We have hit the splash down round. Answer the following questions, the two of you. In physics, when a solid is heated above its melting point, it becomes what? Mercado. Boiling? The answer is liquid. The Musician Prince won an Oscar 1984 for the score to his film Purple What? Micado. Rain. A 2016 Oxford University press survey found that this word, meaning slightly wet, damp or humid, was among the most hated words in the English language. Micado. Moyst. Moyst, the worst word in the world. All of those answers had to do with water. We've splashed down. We're back in the station. Good work, Brooks. Good work, Mikado. You both did great. However, we can only have one winner, and our winner today is Mikado Murphy. Mikado, you've won. And because you've won, you get a prize. It's an actual prize. I'm opening up a container here. I'm pulling it out. It is something we call the Gilby.

Oh, my goodness.

It is a small golden trophy.

That's really... I'm jealous of that. I am jealous of that.

This is fantastic. I want to thank the academy, the Gilby Academy. The Gilby. Thank you.

Brooks, thank you very much for being on this episode. This was fun. This was so wonderful. Mikado, a delight.

Happy to be here.

This episode was produced by Alex Baron, who is also our quiz master. He had help from Tina Antalini, Luke Van der Plug, and Kate Lepreste. We had production assistance from Dahlia Haddad. This episode was edited by Wendy Dore and engineered by Ron Nemistow. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alishiba Itup, and Diane Wong. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. See you then.

This podcast is supported by Metta.

Apps can help teenagers connect, learn, and create. But not every app is right for every teen. Parents should have a choice in which online services their teenagers can access. That's why Instagram supports the initiative for an EU digital majority age, requiring parental approval before teenagers can access online services, including social media. Learn more at Instagram. Com/parentalapproval. This political ad was brought to you by Instagram.