Transcript of Seth Rogen Knows the Secret to Marriage — and Being Rich in Hollywood New

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu García-Navarro. At 44, Seth Rogen seems to be having the opposite of a midlife crisis. His series, The Studio, which he created, writes, stars in, directs, and produces, just won 13 Emmys and is currently filming its second season. He also stars in and produces the very funny Apple TV+ show Platonic with Rose Byrne. His production company Point Gray Pictures has been banging out the hits like the dark superhero series The Boys, and his new movie The Invite, directed by Olivia Wilde, has been generating a lot of buzz. So I wanted to talk to Rogen about how he went from acting in the quickly canceled TV show Freaks and Geeks as a teenager to writing slacker movies like Superbad to having one of the most prolific, wide-ranging, and successful careers in Hollywood. Here's my conversation with Seth Rogen. Seth Rogen, thank you for being on The Interview.

Thank you for having me.

You were recently just in Cannes, which you go to often.

I've never been to Cannes. What? No, never. That was my first time.

I just assumed. I actually didn't know one way or the other.

No, I'd never been. Why? I don't generally make the kind of films that go to film festivals and have that type of attention or focus in any way. And so, no, I'd never made anything that was at Cannes before. Yeah. Oh, it's funny because, you know, we very luckily have had very— like I say, we like my— me and my group, I guess the royal we. I'm Canadian. Close enough. But, you know, we've had very long, lovely careers where up until very recently, we didn't really do any of this stuff. Festivals, awards, things like that. And I think honestly, in our heads, we really kind of assumed it was just that that was not what our careers held, and we were really at peace with that. And so now that I am starting to get to go to festivals like Cannes and see it, it is funny that there's like this entire other side of the industry that has sort of just been withheld from me for the last 20 years. And I never really— I never thought about it that much because I always just thought like, I was like, "Ah, that's for those types of movies, and I don't really make those types of movies." But now, it is amazing, like, the level of industry and infrastructure and sort of pomp and circumstance that I had nothing to do with all these years.

It just felt like a lot of parties I was never invited to until now. So, yeah, it was really exciting, you know?

I find it very comforting that there's a velvet rope that you were not allowed to go by.

There's plenty more, trust me. Even now that I'm here, there's many more velvet ropes that I am not allowed to go by. I'm not invited beyond.

I have this theory that there's always another room that you just don't get into.

I remember as a kid hearing, like, I can't remember who was saying it, it was Judd or Garry Shandling, one of these old comedians I was hanging out with. It was like, you work your way up through Hollywood and eventually you are led into a room alone with Jack Nicholson. And that's like, that's the end of the line. It's like, it's just you and him in a small room together. And that's when you're like, I did it.

So you do have another film, which is The Invite, and you play Joe. Joe is an angry person whose long-term marriage to Angela, played by Olivia Wilde, who also directs the movie, is not in a good place. I saw this recent interview where Olivia Wilde said you are both non-confrontational people, but in this role you access— and this is a quote— your deep rage. And I want to understand what Seth Rogen's deep rage is. Tell me what she meant.

I mean, I don't know if that's I'm glad she saw it that way, if that was helpful for the film. You know, I think, yeah, it was— You know, I think, you know, as we were rehearsing and working on the script leading up to shooting, it just seemed like the more, like, palpably uncomfortable the couple was, the more uncomfortable the audience would be, the more uncomfortable this other couple would be entering this environment. And I had just been out with couples where you just see, like, they don't like each other, and it's really unpleasant to be around, and there is this, like, simmering undercurrent of anger. And in every moment where you would choose to forgive or excuse a person that you actually care deeply about, like these people choose not to forgive and excuse their, their partner and they choose to make a big deal out of it or to use it as an opportunity to, to make a dig at their partner or say something hurtful or feel superior or something like that. And, and those are people I'd been, I, I mean, and I, and continue to be around in my life and, and, and I've always found it incredibly unpleasant.

And to me, that resentment was something that I thought would be very, you know, like, additive to the film and would create, like, a tone and environment that served the film.

It did make me wonder what causes you to feel deep rage, or are you this person that does not feel that?

No, I get really angry sometimes. And it's mostly— I think it's evolved over the years. What, what makes me angry? Like, you know, I used to really get angry about, I mean, like, for lack of a better expression, what I would say, like, people fucking with my shit. Like, like when I was doing like a creative endeavor and I felt like the powers that be were just messing it up for no good reason and were, were obstructing me from expressing what I wanted to express and what I felt would, would create a great product ultimately. And they were interrupting that process or, or again, just complicating it or making it needlessly painful. And, and that was the thing that used to really enrage me more privately, you know, but I would at times, you know, I bet people I've worked with over the years would say that I, I'm not always 100% pleasant 100% of the time when, when it comes to those types of situations, you know? Um, but honestly, over the years I've seen that we very rarely lose those arguments and we almost always get to do what we want creatively. And, and, and there's a number of instances I could probably count on one hand where we've actually like been forced to do a thing that we really don't want to do creatively.

And. I think over time I realized it's like not worth getting that angry about that stuff anymore because it just, the, it rarely manifests into a thing that I actually don't like. It's more the fear of it would enrage me, you know? Um, but now I think as I've gotten older, it's more like, it's more, it's much more directed inwards. It's much more, I get mad at myself and I get disappointed in myself, or I will do a thing that I don't feel like I did as well as I could, or I will feel like I'm spinning out over something or ruminating on something or, or fixating on a thing. And then I'll get mad at myself for removing myself from the day-to-day present experience I should be having because I'm somewhere else fixated on some dumb thing. You know what I mean? That, that is usually my own doing, something that I felt like I didn't do well enough, something that I'd said that I wish I hadn't said or something like that. Um, That is much more where my anger lies these days, is like at my own, at my own behavior and at my own— yeah, at myself, which is probably not healthy.

But that's, you know, I'm doing my best over here. I go to therapy.

Let me— can you give me an example of a moment where something got intervened in that you felt did a disservice to your vision?

It's been a long time, honestly. Like, and, and we've— the whole reason we became producers and made a production company, which was like 10 years ago at this point, I think maybe more, was to like insulate ourselves and really try to protect ourselves from that happening, you know?

Um, and so good work cannot come from by committee. Is that like—

no, I have a very strong committee, like, and, and I, I have a partner specifically. Like, I, I, I am amazed that good work comes from any singular person, you know? I need sounding boards, you know? And, you know, I'm filming The Studio right now, so I'm very, like, in it. But, like, I just see that, like, the team we have on set, our cinematographer, our editor, our writers, the production designer, the costume people, the camera operator, like, these people make the show better. I think at the end of the day, and I say this all the time, the hardest part about being a director for me is when you are the only one who thinks a certain thing, and when everyone's looking at you like you're crazy. And you have to be like, "No, this is what we're doing." 'Cause ultimately, like, I'm the one who has to live with this at the end of the day. And if I don't do the thing that I really think is right, even though everyone's looking at me like, "I don't think this is right," and 99% of the time, the committee's in league, and then 1% of the time, me and my partner are standing there and everyone's looking at us like we're crazy, and we're like, "This is what we have to do." Um, and to me, like, the thing I hate the most is when I make a thing And it isn't quite what everyone hoped.

And someone who was there is like, you know, I, I kind of maybe thought that maybe this wasn't going to work. And that's when I'm like, say something like you were right. Say something. Not like, I wish you had said that because you would have made me see something that I wasn't seeing. And, and, and if you had said that, then this would actually more reflect what I want to be putting out in the world. Not less reflect that, you know what I mean? And so, that is something I, like, just recognized over the years, like, is really valuable, like, to me personally, you know?

You know what fills me with rage? Someone coming and saying, "I told you so." Yeah.

I don't like that either.

Funnily enough. Just to return to the movie briefly, the movie's funny, tender, very dramatic. As a long-term married person, it brought up a lot of familiar themes. I was saying to my producer, also called Sam, Seth, by the way.

I have to fight him now. Yeah, you do.

We were saying there has to be a cage fight.

He's a Highlander. Yeah. Every time I meet one.

That opening scene where you and Olivia are fighting bitterly over the dinner party she is throwing for the neighbors, she'd forgotten to tell your character about it. I'd had that very same argument that week with my husband.

There you go.

Yeah. And were there things in the movie that hit home for you? Obviously, you've been with your partner, Loren Miller, for a long time. What did it bring up for you and also your fellow actors as you were portraying this very complicated emotional dynamic?

I mean, we rehearsed the movie for a little while going into it, and the movie was completely rewritten, I would say, in the weeks leading up to shooting. Huge ideas that are in the movie were not there at all when we were— when we started the rehearsal. Um, and so the movie actually changed a lot as we were leading into filming, and that's not uncommon. And what's funny with a movie like this, and you're rehearsing and the actors are there and the writers are there and, and you're talking about relationships, and, and, and at some point you kind of have to define what, according to this film at least, is a good relationship and what is a bad relationship, you know? And people really bring their own personal stuff into those definitions, you know what I mean? And what you very quickly see is that, oh, like, what I view as a bad relationship is not what these people necessarily view as a bad relationship. Or maybe she agrees with me, but maybe they have a very— this person does not agree with And they view what I would view as completely unacceptable to become— to be normal in a relationship and things like that.

So as we were rehearsing and writing, like, I remember feeling like I could really confidently speak about what a very good relationship was like and one that had been good for a very long time. Unafraid. I mean, I think it's a couple who is nice to each other and who loves each other and who goes out of their way to excuse the other person rather than to find things that they hate about the other person. Not blaming it, like, but to me it comes down to like, like a caring, you know, like, and like a, a tenderness and a niceness that is born out of a desire to do that for the other person, which I think is also very important. It's like you have to want to love your partner and you have to want them to love you back, you know. And I think you have to be intimate with your partner and sexually attracted to your partner. And I think they— and that should be returned as well. And I think— and the movie really gets into that. And so very quickly, me and the other cast members and the writers found ourselves having what maybe we didn't intend to be incredibly revealing conversations, but what ultimately you couldn't— you couldn't hide were incredibly revealing conversations.

Because ultimately you're arguing, oh, I think this is— this is healthy, or this is unhealthy, you know.

Um, are you just— are you saying, you know, you now know more about Penélope Cruz's marriage? Yes.

Got what we're circling around here. I do know Javier Bardem had back problems that were similar to my character's, which was a funny, you know, again, much more than I needed to know about him necessarily. Um, and she does think it had to do with stress and emotion more, more so than a physical ailment. Um, and so yeah, so all that stuff kind of comes out So Esther Perel, the relationship psychotherapist and bestselling author, was a consultant on the film.

Was she mediating something? I mean, were you guys having group therapy?

No, I mean, honestly, from my experience, we just talked about her a lot. Like, and I think there was a point where, like, we were kind of dancing around just, like, using her philosophies in the film. And honestly, I think maybe that made them go to her and be like, "Will you be a consultant on the film?" And 'cause I think there was some— some fear at first of like, are we overlapping? And I remember being like, just embrace it. Like, we are saying what she says. That is the point of this. We agree with it. We all agree with it.

What is the it?

The it is this— I think to me, it's this very simple idea of that you have many relationships throughout your life as you change and you age and your perspective changes, and sometimes your partner changes with you, and you have several relationships with the same person that have new parameters and new boundaries and new, new, new guidelines that are reflective of who you are as you become different people. And sometimes you become incompatible with that person and, and you start a relationship with a new person. And it just, it just really rang true, and it's something I've seen in, in couples that I know and something I've seen in my own relationships. Like, you know, me and my, me and my wife started dating when we were like 20 23 years old or something like that, you know? And so, we're obviously very different people than we were in our early 20s. Now that we're in our mid-40s, but— but we grew in a way that we stayed very compatible with one another, you know? And I've seen other couples not have that happen, you know?

I'm glad you brought this up because I have a theory about your relationship.

Great!

Well, I saw you talk about your wife on Howard Stern, And he told several anecdotes that basically boil down to, I was on drugs and my wife encouraged me to go on live television, get on stage with Madonna, do something potentially publicly risky, but very fun. And I just loved that. Yeah. Because this is clearly someone that is sort of the opposite of trying to shut you down or, you know, circumscribe you. She wants you to be full Seth.

She does, yes. And at times will also tell me, "Maybe it's too much, Seth." I'd say in a very good way. And it's honestly like when we were making the Neighbors movies, that was like a lot of the dynamic between me and Rose Byrne came from conversations with me and Lauren, where it was like we— She's not like the naggy woman who's trying to shut down the fun. Like, she's— Me and her love doing the same stuff. And if anything, yeah, she's like encouraging it. You know, and so we've always, I think in a great way, like fundamentally been on the same page as one another and like to do the same actual things with our day as one another, which I think is also just a thing that like you see is like, oh, this couple like just doesn't want to spend their day doing the same thing anymore. And then they used to and now they don't. And now like she wants to do this and he wants to do this and, and, and, and they might still care about each other, but it's just like what they want to do all day is completely different, you know?

And we like doing the same things, which is also good, I think.

What do you wish she'd stopped you from doing?

Nothing right now. If anything, she has successfully stopped me from doing things I shouldn't have done, which is good. She has a very good track record with that.

So, you often play with thwarted desire in your projects. You know, dude wants a hot girl, isn't in her league. And that frustration is often sort of comedic and played for comedic effect. Could you give me your theory of what makes desire funny?

I mean, to me, it's more just like when a character is getting in their own way of what they want is the funniest thing for a character to do. And when a character fundamentally has a personality that does not allow them to easily achieve what it is that they want, and they are their own worst enemy, and they— they are doing things that are making their own situation harder and worse. That to me is the funniest thing. And I think it does come from something I relate to deeply, which is like the thing that makes you the happiest also is the most painful thing in your life at times, you know? And I think like Larry Sanders Show is the thing that me and Evan, my partner, like reference a lot, you know? And, and I think that is like fundamentally an incredibly great comedic character in that, like, he's constantly trying to be someone he isn't. He's constantly trying to be cool to the employees that he works for or works with, but he just is too wound up and, and, uh, to, to allow it to happen. And he wants to think he can, he can date a woman who's more famous than he is, but he just can't.

And he wants to think he can allow his sidekick to be funny, but he just— his ego won't allow it. And so it's sort of this conflict between what the worst parts of your ego make you do versus what your purest desires want you to do, you know?

Okay. This is kind of a little bit of a silly question, but it is something that I've always been curious about. In a lot of your films, there isn't some big Pretty Woman moment, though, for the dude, when you get a makeover and you're suddenly pumped up. You always end up getting the girl, but you don't get the glow-up. There isn't this big moment where all of a sudden, you know, you're kind of rip off your shirt and there you are. And, you know, I was thinking like Long Shot with Charlize Theron and all these things. Is being funnier, sexier than being hot?

I mean, you know, but you know— I hope so. But no, the answer is no. Being hot is better. It can help.

But I have to think about the characters. I'm not personalizing this.

Um, it's funny, like, when we were making movies when I was younger, that the joke I was always making as we were making them is like, oh, like, my guy's going from wearing like a t-shirt to a, to a polo shirt. Like, that was always like the arc. Like, oh, he got a button— he got a button-up shirt. Like, wow. Um, and even then I could recognize kind of like the, the silliness of that and how superficial it all was, you know. So I And I think more so as we got older and we were, you know, making more of these types of movies, like, that more became, I think, the idea is like, it shouldn't be some, like, superficial thing. You know, a movie like Long Shot, it should be, like, fundamental character things that are evolving and changing, and they're influencing one another in a way that isn't just how they look and dress, but it is more like, as people, they are enriching one another. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I think that's— That's kind of more where that type of thing came from. But truthfully, I don't make that many— like, I haven't made a romantic thing in quite a long time.

It's true.

It's true. Yeah. Yeah. It's— I think because I'm in a very good relationship and have been in for a long time, it's like not that creatively interesting to me to like show two people falling in love with one another. Like, it's not where my brain goes, you know? And I think also when we were first coming up especially, it was like every movie had a romantic storyline or like conflict between the main couple that had to be resolved in some way. And, and, and I think that also just, um, I remember we were making Pineapple Express, like we sort of have like a really silly ridiculous storyline with me and, and, and like the woman, you know, uh, character. And it's like not even remotely a romantic storyline, it's sort of like this disastrous thing, you know. And I remember at the time everyone's like, it has to be romantic, like that's what a movie has. And we were like, no, like, that, that's not— we don't care that much about that. And Knocked Up, like, I think it was like all about that. And Long Shot was like— it was like a romantic comedy, you know.

Um, but I think, yeah, to me it was, it was either more interesting to like fully explore this dynamic or not explore it at all and not have it be like an obligatory part of our things. And it's why, honestly, as we're making The Studio now, it's like, there's like no romantic storylines on the show. Not really. Like, a little, a little, a little, kind of, but like not—

I mean, your dating life is a part of the comedic stuff.

Yes, it's in one episode, and it's like, uh, and the whole joke is that I can't date, you know what I mean? And so other than that, it's not like a thing we're tracking is like, Matt's dating life. Like, it's sort of like a non— there's sort of like an asexuality to the show in a weird way, which, which to me is fine. Yeah, it's interesting. It is.

You got to work with one of the greats, Catherine O'Hara, in the studio. How did you experience that loss? Did you have any particular memories of working with her? Any good Catherine O'Hara stories?

Oh, I mean, so many. Like, when we first conceived of the show, she was the one that we wanted on it more than anybody. And to me and Evan, she was like a god to us, especially as Canadians. Like, I mean, I'm not joking. Like, Home Alone is the movie that made me want to make movies. And like, and her being in it. And then I, as we got older, we just became obsessed with like Christopher Guest films and Waiting for Guffman and things like that. And Beetlejuice was one of my favorite movies ever growing up. So to us, she was just like as funny as as a person could be, you know? And then, I mean, getting to work with her on the first season, like, it really, like, pushed us to want to do right by her and to want to make the show live up to her standards and what we felt she deserved.

And she plays your sort of mentor in this.

Yeah. And she plays my mentor and kind of a maternal figure to me, which she sort of was at times as we were making the show and would send us notes on the scenes, would completely rewrite the scenes. Say, in like the most Canadian way ever, she would send me an email being like, "Here's some thoughts," and then would be a completely rewritten version of the scene, and it would be like, "Take it or leave it." And it was like such a funny Canadian way of being like, "This is better. You should do this," but never said with those words, you know? Um, and then it was just incredibly sad. We just started to hear she was sick, and we'd see her, and we heard she wasn't doing well. And as we were nearing the second season, And, you know, it was— we would just talk to her, and it was clear her health was not great, but she really wanted to come back and intended to come back. And I think it was a real, like, goal for her to come back and keep doing the show. And I think she was really looking forward to coming back and doing the show.

And honestly, in the back of our heads, we were like, "We hope she can, but we don't know if she will be able to." And so, it is this kind of very sad thing where, like, like, kind of creatively, you're kind of making, like, in the back of your head, these contingency plans, but you kind of don't want to think about it, but your brain is kind of telling you one thing and you're trying not to believe it in some ways, you know. Um, yeah, and then we heard she passed away one morning. It was the first week of shooting the show, and it was really, really sad and And we were all together, the whole crew, and everyone loved her very much, and the cast, and we kind of didn't know what to do. And we just kept shooting. And we were like— I think the idea of making each other laugh and being together felt preferable to anything else we could have done that day. You know? Yeah.

I'm sorry. So, um, I want to— I want to go back a little bit to your upbringing. You grew up in Vancouver.

I sure did.

You started in comedy really young. You started playing stand-up in clubs at 13.

Yeah.

And your mom was really encouraging.

Uh-huh.

She would let you stay out, stay up all night working on your routines. And I think that's pretty unusual for a parent. Were there ever moments of tension with her about it, that you wanted to do things that she wasn't letting you? Or was she just letting you kind of do it? To kind of open that door and walk through it?

Um, I mean, she was there all the time, so it wasn't that— it wasn't like unsupervised freedom, you know what I mean? Like, so at once it didn't— it's funny, like, freedom is not the word I would use to describe it. It was more like she was just very supportive of a goal I had. It didn't feel like my mom was just like taking me to comedy clubs to hang out. Like, I was there to do something, you know? And, and, um, And the comedians were old, and I didn't like hanging out with them that much, honestly. Like, it was fine to hang out with them, but I wasn't like, I want to be friends with these guys. Like, I was, I was, I was a teen. Like, I, I had teenager friends, you know what I mean? Like, and every time I did hang out with them socially, it was weird. And so that wasn't the goal either. Like, it wasn't like I wanted to hang out with these old guys and get drunk or anything like that. Like, it more felt like I was really, like, ravenously pursuing a thing, and my parents recognized, like, I was unique in a way that I was, like, pursuing this thing in a very serious way, you know?

You used the word ravenously. That's such an interesting word. Is that how it felt?

Yeah, I think for sure one of the reasons that I, I think especially from a young age, like, managed to work a lot was because I, yeah, had like a, like a real hunger for it and was willing to really put in a huge amount of time time and energy in a way that I, you know, I assume maybe like teenage athletes would, you know. But for me, it was, it was this, you know. And I loved it. And when me and Evan started writing Superbad together when we were 13 or 14, like, it's all I wanted to do. Like, like, I would— we would skip school to write Superbad. And I think even my parents could probably see, like, oh, like, this is— he really likes this, and he is really motivated to try to succeed at this. Not in like a cute kid way, but in in a way that felt real, I think, you know?

Do you look back and think it's weird that you and Evan connected at 13? Yeah. No, but— And it has just been this incredible partnership. It just seems to me that two boys who connected so fundamentally and had so much talent were able to be at the same place at the same time and keep in touch.

Yeah, we marvel at it all the time. Like, it's not lost on us that it's sort of a miracle, like a miraculous thing. I think it was like two people with like a little spark met, but then together we became a singular kind of creative entity in a lot of ways. And like, we're brain— our brains weren't even like fully formed when we met. Like, our brains, I feel like our creative brains really formed around one another and like I, I think that's not any small part of why we work so well together, why we continue to work so well together, since we started like a very young age together. And there became like a cohesion and thought that was really like— it's impossible to replicate, I think, because like we truly grew up with each other and watched movies together all the time, would talk about them, start— first started to learn to write dialog together and to experiment with that together and to try to structure a story together. And so inherently, like, what I think is good story structure is what he thinks is good story structure. And what I think is good character development, he thinks is good character development.

And what I think is a good way to write a scene, he thinks is a good way to write a scene, because we, we, we came up with it together.

Hmm. You ended up moving to LA, um, at 16 to star in Freaks and Geeks after an open casting call in Vancouver. Where you got the part. And, you know, one of the things that is also really interesting is that you were sort of financially supporting your family at 16.

Yeah.

Do you think that responsibility shaped your work ethic? I mean, you talk about, like, absolutely loving what you were doing, but that also feels like it might have been—

For sure. Yes.

Something that felt like a big deal.

No, I think I very much had, like, a fear of going broke and a fear of not having money, and a lot of my friends friends were much more well-off than we were. And I would just see— I would go to their houses and it was, you know, it was like, yeah, it was like a real house. And like, I grew up in like a co-op, like in sort of, you know, in like, uh, like a little housing community basically. It was like somewhere between like an apartment and a condo, I guess, you know. And, um, and yeah, I, I for sure— and I— and we were never like, you know, we weren't like going hungry or anything, but I could just see I was in a very different financial situation than everyone that I was kind of in my community, you know, uh, I'm sure that had something to do with my drive from a young age.

Has that shaped how you think about money and success now?

I think if anything, and this is probably not like the healthiest way to approach it, is like, I think I spent so much time worried about money when I was younger that now that I I make more money than I ever thought I would. Like, I think like the gift I've given to myself is I never think about it. Like I have no, I almost never think about how much money I'm spending or making. I don't fetishize money. I don't care if other people are making more money than me doing the exact same thing as me. I don't have like an ego about it. I'm making more than, than I ever thought I would. And so I see other actors who are very very competitive. I've had conversations with other actors about it, you know, and, and, and, and that has just not been my approach to it. And as far as spending money goes, like, it's again not a thing. I see rich people who are like— I'm like, you're focused on that amount of money? Like, like, the amount of stress you are causing yourself over an amount of money that will never impact your life in any way, shape, or form is insane to me.

And so I think like the gift I've given myself is I truly spend as little time thinking about it as humanly possible and as little time trying to focus on it or fixate on it. I try not to be overly principled about it. If I feel like I'm getting charged more because of who I am, I'm like, yep, that's the way. If you're going to charge anyone more, it's probably me. You know what I mean? And, and, and that's the way the world works. I try I try not to be philosophically, you know, up in arms about my own, you know, financial situation in any way. I don't care if I'm getting ripped off a little. I don't care if I'm overpaying for things a little, honestly. Like, I'm not— again, and I'm around people all the time who are always— who are rich, who are trying to get deals and trying to get a break and trying to get like— they trying to feel like they are— makes them feel special or something. More— it's funny, like, there's this, uh, I read this book on— I read that Going Clear book. Every once in a while, you know, like, you read like one sentence and it like snaps your whole perspective into place a little bit.

And I remember reading that book about Scientology, and there was just one sentence in it about how famous people tend to do a thing where if they aren't treated in a certain they, they, it makes them think they're not as talented as they wish they were. And it's like, if I go to a restaurant and I have to wait 20 minutes for a table instead of them just seating me right away, as, as they are the famous person next to me, is it because I'm not as, am I not as talented as I thought I was? Am I not as good as I thought I was? If I'm, you know, if I'm trying to get into a party and, and, and they don't just let me in and I have to wait in line, like, does that mean I'm not as good a writer as I thought I was? If I'm not getting a deal, if I'm not getting the best hotel room and I go next door and, and, and someone has a nicer hotel room than me on the press tour, does that mean that I am not as good an actor as I thought I was?

And I think that is how a lot of famous people interpret how they're treated. And they think that if they're not getting the best treatment, they aren't as skilled as they wish they were, as they thought they were. And that was a thing that I realized when I read that. It's like, oh, it is tapping into some deep part of me that makes me worried I'm not as talented as I want to be or as I wish I was. Or— and that's it. Because that's like the thing you fear the most and is the most potentially painful.

How did you work through that? How did you— because obviously you said you felt that at some point and then it changed for you.

Honestly, as soon as I read that one sentence, it started to shift for me and I started to— much more easily identifying myself when that was happening. And I was able to sort of, I think, shift my behavior pretty quickly in the wake of that.

Yeah. Hmm. Once you've moved out of that, how do you define your success? What are the metrics by which you say, you know what, this is good, I did well, I'm okay?

Um, I mean, I mean, I wish it had nothing to do with how the work was received, but it for sure doesn't. Like, that is definitely a part of it, you know?

Obviously.

Obviously. And I think that is the thing that most artists feel the most conflict about is like external validation versus did I do what I wanted to do? But the truth is, if my work isn't received well, then I didn't do what I wanted to do because I want people to like what I do and to enjoy it. And especially when you make making comedy, which I think is the hardest thing to make in a lot of ways, because you are announcing that you are going for a specific reaction. And with a dramatic film, you're not really saying that. You're kind of saying like, you know, we hope you find it insightful or interesting or meaningful or sad or cathartic. But with a comedy, you're saying like, I want you to laugh, and if you don't, I've failed. And, and it's also the making of it to me, like That has to go a certain way, and that has to be a certain process, I think, in order for the work to be successful. And I think the day-to-day of it has to be cohesive to what I feel that should be in order for me to think the work is good, I think.

I'm just very interested in this. So, last question on this, but when I look at the studio, you are the creator, the producer, the director, you help write it, you write it, and you star in it. So, it is really a Seth Rogen production in every possible way that it could be. And then, just to use, you know, the film that you're currently in, you're just acting. And obviously, you helped craft the character and the dynamics, but it's not— you don't have the same kind of responsibility.

No, my name is on it one time.

Yeah. So, can you parse that out for me in terms of that idea getting satisfaction or having it reflect yourself. How do you differentiate between those two different things?

I mean, the truth is, like, I— For me, it is much more engaging to do what I'm doing on The Studio. Like, I greatly prefer to act and write and direct. And it's really hard and taxing.

It sounds really hard.

And it takes a lot of me, but I genuinely love it. And I know that— I never feel like I am doing more of what I should and could be doing from like a creative standpoint than when I'm doing all those things. And when I'm on the set of The Studio and I'm— I appreciate the, the crushing pressure and the focus and what is required of me in order to do all those jobs well. And when I am able to actually do them all well, I feel a level, level of creative satisfaction and gratification that I will never get from just doing one of those things, you know? And so if I'm going to act in a thing, it has to be a thing that I feel like I would really love the product of, a movie that if I saw it, I was like, oh, like, that's the exact type of movie I love to watch.

And, and, and so, like, being in The Fabelman, Steven Spielberg, etc.

Yes, a thing like that. You're like, of course I'm gonna work with Steven Spielberg, and, and, and it'll be educational, and And I then make it— I put it on myself to really, like, extract everything I can from the experience as well. And even if I'm acting for an hour a day, I'm on set all day. And I literally stood beside him, just asked him questions. I would bring up scenes from his movies on YouTube and just be like, "Explain to me how you did this. What did you think of? How technically did you do it?" And he loved it. And I—

Really?

Yeah. And I did that. And I just stood beside him all day asking him questions about how he filmed his movies and how he conceived of them. Them, how he blocks them, how he storyboards, how he, you know, like, I think what I learned about blocking on The Fabelmans is like, was like directly put in the studio, and how to move the actors around and move the camera around the characters and how to make it dynamic. Even a scene where people are at a dinner table talking and like all that, I was like, oh, I'm gonna absorb all of this from, from Steven Spielberg if I can.

So the way I If you read your on-screen and off-screen history, as we sort of discussed, it's sort of a testament to male friendship. There's Judd Apatow, of course, who hired you for Freaks and Geeks. And then you met a whole bunch of buddies through that. Jason Segel, James Franco, and of course, you've had the same writing partner, Evan Goldberg, as we've discussed. I asked you earlier what makes a good relationship. What makes a good male friendship?

I think the same things as any other dynamic, you know? You know, like, like I found with, you know, Evan and, and the people, you know, I tend to work with my close friends. Not all of them. I have very close friends from growing up who I don't work with. Um, but, you know, I think like a desire to be good to one another, which again sounds intuitive, I guess, but I think when I look at people who have bad relationships and bad dynamics, like, that's the thing I notice is just like they don't seem to want to be nice to each other, and they seem to be looking for every reason to not be nice to each other. And I think it comes down to like, do you like this person? You know, and I come from a, a world, yeah, where it's like, it was not like a macho sports-oriented like environment. Like everyone's parents were in therapy and, and, you know, like I'm from the, I'm from the Pacific Northwest, you know, we were ahead of the curve on a lot of that stuff in the '80s and '90s. And so, I think, like, I come from a group of friends who were very, like, communicative and open and not afraid of sort of sharing what they were feeling with one another.

Why do you think that version of male friendship translated so well on screen?

Me and Evan still marvel that, like, Superbad is still remotely not just like accepted in today's society, but it's a thing like kids still really seem to watch. Yes, indeed. Like just like when we were young, we would all watch, we would watch Fast Times and things like that. Like it seems like Superbad has somehow like filled the slot in many ways of like the high school movie you, you watch and relate to when you are in high school, you know? And, and I think part of it is because like it is, it is about exploring kind of being vulnerable with your friends, you know? And, and that I think is, is a coming of age thing, like in and of its own right, you know? And I remember when I was moving to LA, I was, I did a bunch of shrooms with my friends. I was 16 years old and we were all at their house. We were at one of my friend's houses, and it was like the sun was coming up, and I was laying on the couch, and my friend Fogel, who McLovin is based on, was there laying on the couch beside me.

The other— like, we were— it was like a sleepover, and we were kind of, you know, um, and I remember just being like, I'm so terrified to like move to Los Angeles to do this show, and I'm not gonna see you guys anymore, and I'm gonna have no frien— know anybody out there. And he was like, yeah, man, like high school ends next year for us too. Like, I don't know where any of us are going to if we're gonna be friends anymore, if any of this is gonna happen. And like, it felt like a big moment, and it felt like the first time any of us had really acknowledged to one another like how much we cared about one another and how afraid we would be without one another, you know? And I think that's like a feeling, especially as high school ends and you're kind of going your separate ways. For me, it was to go work, but it was no different than if I was going to a college and all my friends were going to a different one, you know? Um, and I think I think that's a little different, but for all, you know, for logistically, it was very similar, you know.

Um, and, and I think that feeling was what we really tried to put into the movie, was this feeling of, you know, not that high school's easy, but there's—

you're on the cusp of something.

You're on the cusp of something unknown. And I think that was— however we were able to, like, bottle that feeling and put it into the movie seems to resonate.

I mean, one interesting thing about your character in The Invite is that he has no friends. And I mean, it just seems pretty reflective of what's happening in the culture today more broadly with men. You know, the loneliness epidemic. For sure. And I just wonder, is Hollywood doing a good job of showing positive male friendships the way it used to?

I don't know. No, because I think about—

That's what I'm saying. I was thinking about Superbad, and that's And I just really— when I thought about your character in The Invite and just what we're seeing in the culture writ large, and as someone who has really channeled male representation on screen, I mean, I came up watching Lethal Weapon, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Superbad. Things just don't seem to look like that anymore.

I think— I mean, it's interesting. Yeah, we try to do it on the studio a little bit. There's the stuff with me and Ike. I think ultimately, that is it. Is a relationship we do keep. Like, it's probably the most emotionally kind of constant relationship on the show. And, um, but I, I don't know why other people don't explore it. I, I, I know we have just done it a lot. And so I think it's something as we look to, it's like, I mean, it's funny, we did this roast many years ago, um, and, uh, Nick Kroll had a joke that really hit close to home where he was making fun of me and Evan on the roast. And he was like, "What, are you guys gonna make another movie where they're friends, then they stop being friends, and at the end they're friends again?" And I remember being like, "Oh yeah, that is every movie we've ever made." And not to say that's a bad thing, but the fact that he could boil it down that simply into a joke, I think we were like, "Yeah, maybe we should move away from that a little bit." I'm going to ask you about a friendship that you did have a public break with, which was your friendship with James Franco after allegations of sexual misconduct were leveled against him.

I am curious about how you worked through that decision, and did that change the way you think about friendship at all?

Um, I mean, I'm trying to think. How much I want to personally share about this.

I understand that. I— The reason I ask is this. I think as a culture, we are still grappling with if and how we allow people who've behaved badly back into our lives, back into the culture. And so, I was sort of wondering about, you know, what was a very seminal relationship for you?

Yeah, like, I honestly think the nuance of it is too personal for me to get into right now. Like, it is a very personal thing. And I think there's like the public-facing side of it, which I've spoken about. And, and, and I, and I have the same stance publicly that, that, that I've had. And I think the proof is in the pudding more than anything is just I haven't, I have not worked with him in years, you know. But like the personal side of it is just, it's, it's so nuanced and it involves people that I don't know if I should be dragging into this. And, and, and I think it's, you know, I don't know what I would benefit from getting deeply into it in this moment. Um, but I'd say everything I've said, I, uh, nothing is, nothing has changed really since, since the last time I've talked about all this and I I haven't worked with him in a really long time, and I have no plans to.

Do you talk to him?

I haven't talked to him in a long time, no.

So, I want to ask you about your on-screen relationships with women because I love Platonic, where you have a deep friendship with Rose Byrne, who's also a regular collaborator with you.

Yeah, she's great.

So, how have you sort of thought about the female male relationship male dynamic on screen, because Platonic literally is, again, about friendship. It's not romantic.

Yeah.

It's so interesting considering your previous comments about not finding the romantic dynamic interesting, that this is a central storyline here.

Yeah. I mean, I think it can— again, I think it can be, like, reductive. Like, I think, like, for so long, that was the only dynamic there was between a man and woman on screen, essentially. It was was a romantic one. And part of it is just like, what's— what is new that, that hasn't been explored but is true to all of our lives, or many of our lives anyway? And, and, and it's funny, like, I think so much overthinking it in some ways goes into like, what makes a funny female character in relation to a funny male character, you know? And do they have to be smart? Do they have to be dumb? Is it dumb? Is it bad if they're dumb? Is it sexist if they're dumb? Or is it sexist if they're smart? Like, I've seen, I've seen both things argued. I've seen, you know, it's like, oh, you don't want to give her the dumb character. But like, that's often the funnier characters, the dumb character, you know what I mean? And the worst choices a character makes, often the more comedically they can perform as a, as an actor, you know.

Um, but they're dumb, you know.

And so like, I mean, Marilyn Monroe was one of the great comedic actresses of her day.

Exactly. So I think like, to me, what I've found with to be the healthiest conversations is just What creates the most comedic potential if that is what you are trying to do? And to not try to— I think as soon as you start to think too globally and lose sight of the thing you're making is when you get lost in the weeds a little bit. And—

What does that mean?

If you start to feel like, "Well, what we are saying with this is men are like this and women are like this," that to me is so much harder to wrap my head around than like, what I'm saying is this guy is like this and this woman is like this.

Like, and that's funny together.

It's specific to this. And, and what we are doing is making it work for this. And, and as long as it works, it's good. You know what I mean? And as long as it is, it's funny. You, you, you're not thinking, is he dumb or is he smart or is she dumb or is he like, you're just thinking it works. And, and all of a sudden all the stigmas and the, and the history and the conversation around it kind of falls by the wayside because you're just watching a thing that works, you know what I mean? And so that's what I've seen work is like with Platonic, it just is, you know, Rose's character is like doing incredibly stupid things all the time, making incredibly poor choices, being irresponsible, putting people in danger, putting people at risk, doing things that Again, I guess you could philosophically argue, like, "Is it great to portray anyone like that? Is it good? What are we saying about women when we do this? What are we saying about men when we do this?" But I think what they do so well on that show is they're not trying to do that.

They're like, "What makes this character allow Rose Byrne to give the funniest performance she could possibly give and be as funny in these scenes as she could possibly be?" And I think, like, I find like these kind of heavier conversations about theme and society and culture, like, hopefully that's just within you and, and will come out through your work because it's organic to your perspective, you know?

Do you think Hollywood has become more risk-averse? Yes.

Okay. Yeah, 100%. Yes. Um, period. Like, and we've just seen it, like You know, Superbad's a good example. Like, when we made that movie, they bought our script, they hired a director, they said it would have a $20 million budget and it would start shooting in August— or in April of that year, and it would come out in, uh, like August of the following year. That's it. And then we cast the movie, we found a director for the movie. We made it according to their schedule and we released it on the date they chose. That would never happen today in 100 million years. No studio would just buy a script, give it a release date, cast it, and then make it. Now everything has to be in place before they will decide whether or not they're making it. Who's the director? Who are the actors? Are they famous enough? Do they have big enough names? If not, then we gotta change. We gotta get different ones or else we won't make it. And I know we wanted to start shooting in April and release it next summer, but if we don't have the right actors, we're not going to do that because we think these actors will get us more money than these actors, even though they might not be the funniest actors for the role.

They might be more commercial for the role. Not to say you won't ultimately get to the funniest people for the role, but you'll have to go through an incredible process to do it in a way that is all due to risk aversion. You know, like Amy Pascal was willing to just say, like, make this movie, you'll put the funniest "people in it, that will make the best version of the movie, and the best version of this movie is what will make us the most money." That is not said anymore, really, in Hollywood.

As I was preparing for this interview, I was looking at your list of credits, and, you know, it's just astonishing when you sort of sit with it. Producing the hit superhero series The Boys, acting in The Invite, voicing Kung Fu Panda, Platonic, The Story of a Girl, Studio. I mean, there's just like a lot there. And I was recently watching Judd Apatow's excellent documentary on Mel Brooks. Oh yeah. And thinking that you're our generation's Mel Brooks. I mean, you've already made comedies that have sort of defined a generation. You're only 44. I mean, is he someone that you've modeled your career on?

Um, honestly, what's— I love Mel Brooks. I, I more modeled my career off of like Harold Ramis. And, um, you know, and I would look at like You know, not on a personal level, but I was a big— my parents loved Woody Allen movies when I was a kid, you know, and I was sort of inundated with like Hannah and Her Sisters and things like that. And Mel Brooks. I mean, I like— it's funny, like Spaceballs. Like, I watched Spaceballs before Star Wars, probably 100 million times. But what's funny is I never had like too close of a plan or too specific of a goal, or I never looked at anyone's career really. Billy and was like, I want that career. I, I, I think when I was in my early 20s, I sort of surpassed any expectation I could have had for myself in many ways. And, and, and after that, I sort of saw that like the greatest gift I could give to myself was to like do whatever creatively excited me in whatever moment I was in and not working towards something where like I'll only be I'll be happy if I do this, and if once I do this, I'll know I've made it, you know, like I, I, I, I felt like I made it when I was 23 years old.

And so after that, I was like, I, I think I should just do what seems exciting to me. And, and, and it is funny because sometimes I will do an interview and look back and I'll be like, wow, I'm doing a lot of, it's a lot of stuff. And it's, and it's a weird array of stuff. And, but I look and it's the stuff, it's stuff that truly reflects my taste and who I am and my sensibilities. Me and Evan grew up reading comic books. We were, that's one of the first things we bonded And so getting to adapt comic books— Garth Ennis, one of my favorite comic book writers of all time. So getting to make Preacher and The Boys and things like that, especially like, you know, I remember when like David Fincher was attached to make Preacher and then it fell apart and we ended up making it. And The Boys, like every big director in Hollywood was attached to adapt The Boys at one point or another. And we just sort of like hung out in the background for a decade until everyone else fell through and we became the most viable option to— Who turned it down?

Down. It wasn't even turned down.

It didn't work out.

It just didn't work out. They kept making versions. It, it is tricky, and we changed it quite a bit from the source material, I think, to make it into something that was far more, uh, digestible as, as, as visual entertainment than, than it would have been otherwise, you know. Um, but I, I think like the greatest gift I have in my career is that I truly— we can kind of do anything, and we can make dramatic things and comedic things and animated things and live-action things. And things like Ninja Turtles, honestly, like, has been one of my favorite things we've made in years. And like, I love that movie, and I think it's so good and so reflective of my taste and my sensibility and what I loved when I was a kid, but also infused with like the highest level of writing and storytelling and plot construction that I could fathomably have helped conceive of in that time in my life. And I look at how it's constructed constructed from like a structure and story standpoint, and I'm like legitimately very proud of it. And I think like, oh, that is like as well-structured a film as you can make in many ways.

And my hope is that our work just clearly has had the highest level of thought and care and consideration put into it, no matter what it is. And like, as risk-averse as Hollywood is, I'm always trying to instill people that we work with, like, if we can take a swing, let's take it. If no one's looking, let's do something crazy. If no one's— if we're in this moment where no one's paying attention, like, let's, let's make Ninja Turtles look insane. Like, let's, let's really push it. And, and to me, I also hope our work has that sort of like intrepid spirit, like a spirit of that we are going for it and that we are not playing it safe, but we are swinging for the fences, you know?

Seth Rogen, thank you so much. We'll speak again.

Thank you.

After the break, I talk to Seth again and ask him about AI.

The worst person you know who has any interest in writing is probably more helpful to you ultimately than some, like, artificial intelligence program.

Seth Rogen, so glad to talk to you again.

We're back.

We're back. All right. In our first conversation, we talked You talked about opportunities for young people coming up in Hollywood and how the industry has changed and possibly, you know, someone like you wouldn't have the same sort of opportunities to make movies today. And then we just saw two YouTubers dominate the box office. One of them, Kane Parsons, the director of "Backrooms," is 20. He was 16 when he made the YouTube video the movie is based on. And then Curry Barker, the director of "Obsession," is 26. These have just been like huge successes. I mean, what do you make of that? Of that?

Um, I mean, honestly, it totally fits in line with advice that I have been giving people for years when they come up to me, which is they say, I want to make it in movies, I want to do something. Um, and I tell them, like, make stuff, and make stuff that, that is really good. And I'm like, trust me, people like me are, like, begging that— praying that they see something impressive. Um, I met with Kane when I think he was 16 or 17 years old because I watched his YouTube videos. Oh wow. Um, and I remember the people at my company being like, why are we meeting with a 16-year-old? And I was like, trust me, this kid is very talented, you know. And so ever since our phones had cameras on them, basically I've been— that has become my default advice to people. And now with Blender and visual effects and things like that, people like, on literally on a laptop, you can make a thing that, that that when I was growing up would cost you tens of millions of dollars, you know, it has really opened the door for people who are skilled and dedicated to really show what they're capable of, you know?

And I think that that's a great thing.

Hollywood always seems to be in the middle of, like, an angsty crisis. Variety called what just happened with these two YouTubers a, quote, "tectonic shift in Hollywood that sent shockwaves through the industry." I do wonder, first of all, what you make of that. I mean, do you think that's overstating what just happened? Because I guess what I think is so alluring to executives is that YouTubers, as you just mentioned, have cheap technology that they can use to get millions of eyeballs. They can workshop an idea and then have a built-in audience. So I guess it takes the guesswork out of selling tickets. So I'm just wondering how you see it since you already were tracking him for so long.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't— I don't know if like online engagement necessarily translates into like ticket sales, definitely, you know what I mean? Um, but I think to your first part of the question, like, I think it's overstating that it's a tectonic shift if your assumption is that these shifts don't happen constantly in Hollywood, you know? Like, and I think that's something me and Evan talk about a lot is it's from Network. Like, I always think of that line in Network where Robert Duvall is like, "It's a volatile industry." And the investors are like, "Well, we shouldn't be. Why are we financially invested in a volatile industry?" And, but I think by definition it is a volatile industry, you know, and it changes. And it's almost the one defining feature of Hollywood from my experience in it is that there is every few years a tectonic shift. And thank God it's not really my job to be overly invested in these trends, I guess. And I'm able to sort of keep my head down and, and we're aware of them again, and we'll kind of ride the waves of them if it fits in with our own creative ambitions, you know, and I'm more than happy to like say in a pitch how whatever I'm doing maybe fits into the trend.

End of what I hope the executive I'm pitching to, or assume the executive I'm pitching to, is looking for. But to me, yeah, like, I— it's not that shocking to me that something like this happened. There's like a whole generation of people who have access to essentially professional filmmaking, um, equipment for, uh, a price that, again, when I was young was like completely unobtainable. And they're— and they're making their own stuff, and studios are— are making making tons of money off of it, which again is not that different than like when Lonely Island and those guys made YouTube videos and, and people hired them, or when the Broad City girls made their show on YouTube and people hired them, or when, you know, Nathan Fielder— all the— a lot of people like in comedy, it's a little more commonplace, I think. But I think now with technology, it's allowing people who really thrive in different genres, genres that traditionally maybe require more resources to really kind of show what they can do. And again, and studios will be more than happy to capitalize off of that whenever they see an opportunity to.

Let me ask you, just as an aside, what makes a good pitch?

I think a good pitch is short, generally speaking, honestly. Like, I, and I think a pitch, and I'm not someone who I assume is great at pitching, honestly. You know what I mean?

No, no, I bet people pitch you. I'm sure. So I'm just curious.

If the idea is genuinely good, the pitch is kind of easy. And I actually get kind of suspicious of people who are like good pitchers. To me, like, the quintessential pitch I'm used to hearing is from like a nervous comedy writer who has terrible people skills, who has no ability to like present themselves in a way that is nearly representative of what they're capable of. You know what I mean? And so when someone comes in comes in too slick and, and flashy, uh, I, I get a little suspicious, honestly. Um, but I'm just looking for the idea. I know myself, I've had so many ideas that are so hard to pitch. I remember trying to pitch people Pineapple Express and them just looking at us like we were insane, and trying to pitch This Is the End and people looking at us like we were crazy. And like, with the studio, when we pitched that, our only thought was to like way overdeliver. What makes it easy for these people whose entire job like risk mitigation to say yes to me. And so they could see like, "Oh, it has a cast, and I don't have to imagine, like, who's this character?

Like, it's this person. Who's this character? It's this person." Like, and I think it showed like we really like were geared towards making the show and not just towards like writing the show for money, which is another thing a lot of people do, you know?

One of the other sort of big disruptors in Hollywood is, of course, AI. And you've been, you know, vocally against AI's use in writing and in animation. Do you feel like you're standing against the tide? And why are you standing against the tide? Because again, I guess it's like a, you know, I think the executives view it as like a cost savings, right? Because I think they see it as a way to execute in a way that doesn't require as many Resources. resources.

Yeah. And I think, like, I guess I look to the different sectors of the industry. Like, I know a lot of people who work in visual effects who think— who, who are visual effects artists truly, who think AI can help them do their work better. But they work in a field where technology is something they are having to navigate in order to do their job to what they view as the best of their abilities. I don't think writing has that problem, you know what I mean? I don't think if you're having a hard time writing that technology is the thing that is in your way. Um, I think it, it is either your, your dedication or your skills or your abilities or just the amount of time you spent doing it and, and, and, and the amount you have to develop your own abilities to match what it is you're, you're hoping you're, you're putting out in the world, you know? And I'm only speaking for my own personal interest in it, you know what I mean? Like, I know other writers who, who do use, uh, you know, ChatGPT to have conversations, I guess, about their ideas.

It's just not a thing that has ever interested me, and, and it's, and it's not a thing that I ever was even remotely tempted to engage with because I have a writing process that I really enjoy, you know what I mean? But I do understand how you, if you were alone somewhere in your apartment writing, trying to write a script, having no one to talk to about it, no one in your life cares that you're doing this. I definitely understand the temptation to, to use a, like, artificial intelligence as some sort of sounding board because working alone is very hard and, and, and scary, you know? But I think I would advise people to seek out some sort of creative community. And even like the worst person you know who has any interest in writing, writing is probably more helpful to you ultimately than some, like, artificial intelligence program to talk about your writing with.

You're not going to have an Evan AI bot to be your—

Exactly.

All right. Hard pivot. As I mentioned, you were on Howard Stern where you told a lot of stories about drugs.

Yeah.

And you said the only time that you were drug-free was on a trip to Singapore, where drugs are illegal on penalty of death. And I really was curious because you didn't describe the experience of what it was like not to be high, um, for the first time since you were a kid.

It was fine. It's not— it's not that weird. Like, uh, I— yeah, I, I— it was fine. I, and I go straight— like, it's not like I— in my day-to-day life, I am not in a position where I can just smoke weed literally all day, every day, at all times. Like, I, I, you know, last week we were filming in some skyscraper downtown. I couldn't smoke weed in there. And so I went all day without smoking weed. And it's pretty, you know, it's not like I'm freaking out or anything. It's just, you know, I'm a little happier if I can smoke weed all day. That's all.

Yeah. I mean, you've helped normalize cannabis use. When I think about Pineapple Express to today, it's been a complete sea change. Yes. And I think it's a real testament to the cultural impact of your work. Was that an explicit aim or just sort of a fortunate byproduct?

I'd say it was a— I'd say it was sort of a specific aim, but a very, like, personal one. Like, I don't think our goal was like, if this works, we will change culture's view on weed. I think it was more like, we don't like how we are stigmatized as people who smoke weed. And I think I think the ultimate way to show that people who smoke a lot of weed are not who you think they are is to really proficiently make an entire movie about people who smoke weed implicitly by people who smoke weed that is for people who smoke weed, but is actually like, has the thought and care and consideration and, and, and technical kind of acumen put into it that, that like any real Hollywood movie has. And I think to us, that's kind of what had never been done before. Friday is probably the closest one, you know, and I love that movie, but, but even that was sort of like a very— I think they moved— they made that movie for like almost no money, you know. It was a very small movie, and, and I think that movie kind of had an outsized impact.

But yeah, we were really kind of on a personal level trying to be like, what if we made like a real, like a real weed movie? And people saw that, like, it wasn't this, like, outcast thing for idiots. It was a thing that could be as mainstream as anything, you know? And we were shocked when it was so embraced, honestly, in that today when I go to the weed store, the fact that there's, like, Pineapple Express weed that exists is, like, so funny, I think, and, like, a real direct kind of descendant of the movie. And I think the fact that, yeah, that it was a weed movie that— and even when we were promoting that movie, like, It was not easy. Like, you know, they— people— I remember going on TRL, which dates this story, and like, really, literally right before I went on, they were like, "Oh, and you can't talk about weed at all." And I'm like, "I'm here to promote a movie. Like, the movie's title is weed. Like, what am I going to talk about?" And they were like, "I don't know. Figure it out. But you can't—

you literally can't mention weed on this show." How do you promote that movie without mentioning weed?

Well, what I think I did is I did to talk about it, and then they, like, aired it once and then scrubbed it from TRL existence. Yeah, it was tough.

Okay, before I say goodbye, you're filming the studio today. Anything that you can say about the new season? Anything at all?

Um, I don't know. Um, I can say it's, it's far more ambitious than the first season, and I honestly, like, there's been many times I've been on set this season and I've been, I, I've been truly amazed at, at what, in a way that has offered me a lot of gratification and pride, like, I've been amazed at what we've been able to pull off and the people we've been able to talk into doing the show and, and the people I've gotten to work with. And, and I've watched the episodes and I really feel as though I'm pushing myself more and more. I'm excited and nervous for people to see it, but as we make it, it feels like we have tried to up our game, and there are moments where I really feel like we are doing something that I'm very proud of.

Seth Rogen, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

That's Seth Rogen, the The Invite is in theaters June 26th. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelley. It was edited by Jon Wu. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Marian Lozano. Photography by Devin Yelkin. The rest of the team is Priya Mathew, Wyatt Orum, Paula Newdorff, Joe Bill Muñoz, Alejandro Sotogoico, Kathleen O'Brien, and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Next week, David talks with the prolific actor, writer, and producer Danny McBride about what exactly is over the line.

It is funny writing comedy and then writing horror, where people can get offended from jokes, obviously. I mean, it happens all the time. But for some reason, with horror, there's none of that, you know? You're just like, we're just coming up with cool ways to kill people. And, like, nobody's upset about it. It's— you're just allowed to.

I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.