Hey, it's Ben Frewman, editor-in-chief of Wirecutter. We put together the ultimate moving guide, and I wanted to find out a few of our writers' favorite tips. When you're first moving into your home, make sure that you change the batteries in your smoke detector.
Buy a mattress bag. You can carry a mattress more easily because the handles are built in, and it's going to protect your mattress from the truck and the street.
Make sure you have towels on hand. You don't want to end up taking a shower and using a dirty sock to dry off. Yeah.
If you're getting ready to move, let Wirecutter help you make a plan at nytimes.com/moving.
Hey, it's Michael. Today we're gonna do something a little bit different. We're gonna hand our show over to our colleagues at PopCast, The Times' pop culture show. It's hosted by music critic John Caramanica and culture reporter Joe Coscarelli. You've heard both of them on The Daily before talking about Bad Bunny's Super Bowl performance, not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a few weeks ago about the 30 greatest living American songwriters, except of course of course, for Billy Joel, who got snubbed. The big news is that PopCast will now be coming out every week as both an audio and video show featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture, like ASAP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, Rosalía, and many more. We love what PopCast is doing, and we wanna share it with you. So take a listen to John and Joe's recent interview with the singer Olivia Rodrigo. About her new album, her songwriting process, and her thoughts about speaking out about politics. You can find podcast every Thursday at nytimes.com/podcast, at youtube.com/podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, enjoy the show.
I actually don't think I've ever really done a podcast before too. I think this is my first real one. Is that true? I've never, like, sat down and done, like, a 2-hour conversation thing, so— Oh, yeah.
Well, get comfy.
All right, get deep, lock in. Uncross those arms. Uncross those arms.
Real loose, real loose, real loose. Everyone take a deep breath. Young Lean taught us how to do breathwork. Wow. Erykah Badu taught us how to do breathwork.
I would trust Erykah Badu with my life.
We did fire breathing with her.
Oh, wow. Sometimes that makes me more anxious.
That was— I didn't want to tell that.
They have like crazy ones in yoga where you're like, and I'm like, I'm hyperventilating now. This sucks. Go time!
Let's do it! Yes!
Been waiting my whole life for this.
Yes, exactly. Yes, thank you. That's the attitude.
Welcome to The New York Times Popcast, your bedroom of Versailles of weekly culture chat. I'm John Caramanica. I'm the critic.
I am Joe Coscarelli. I'm the reporter.
I'm Olivia Rodrigo, and I'm on podcast.
Ah, finally, finally.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I love you guys. I love this show.
It's very kind. And as we said to you just a moment ago, truly on our 1.0 mood board having you here. We're extremely thrilled that you're here. What a special day, truly.
For me as well. I really appreciate all the work you guys do, and I love all of your opinions.
And certainly not all of them.
True, informed, conscious—
they are thought through. They're thought through. You don't have to agree with all of them.
That's not how criticism works.
Not how criticism works. Thank you. Will you tell your friends? Just put it in the group. Just put it in the group chat.
Critics are allowed.
Yeah, critics are—
uh, you don't need much introduction, but Olivia Rodrigo, the Grammy-winning artist, singer-songwriter behind 4 now number 1 hits.
Yeah.
Most recently, "Drop Dead" from her new album, "You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love," out June 12th, very soon. Starting in 2021, Olivia burst on the scene with "Driver's License," a smash. That was the most obvious—
Smash. You might have been my first interview for that too. Yeah.
I remember.
Yeah.
I think that happened. We did "Diary of a Song." Wait, so you're second semester senior year and you just released your first single.
Yeah. First semester. Yeah, not even second. I'm like dying over here.
We knew you were going to have, I think, a long and special career. Uh, before that, Olivia was known for her work on Disney. First on Bizaardvark. Shout out to Bizaardvark. Shout out to Bizaardvark.
Let's go make some videos. Hey, hey, let's go make some videos. Hey, hey.
If you haven't seen it, someday you'll have kids and maybe you'll see it.
It's really having a resurgence though. Like, people will stop me on the street and they're like, Oh my God. I'm like, oh yeah, I make music. They're like, I love Bizarre Park.
I'm like, that's weird. Are you saying that's weird?
Yeah, the music stuff comes after for them.
They don't care about that.
That's incredible. Um, High School Musical: The Musical: The Series.
Also a long title.
Incredible.
Long, long titles here.
Truly an incredible title.
Yes.
It would be insane to think I might actually have a shot at playing Gabriella.
Your first two albums, Sour and Guts, mixed pop punk fury with devastating balladry. That's sort of been your magical formula up to this point. You're swerving yet again on this album. We're going to get into it. We're going to talk about the new work and so much more.
So you are— it's about to get very intense. You're in— the roll-up is rolling. Yeah, we're coming up to album release. We had the opportunity to go to SNL.
Yes.
A couple of weeks ago.
I feel like you should also tell the viewers about how you corrected the script. Wow. Okay. You're ready? No.
You're ready.
You know.
You want to go there?
I was on the edge. Okay, good. So we will tell that story. Okay, okay. So we got to watch you host and perform SNL. I know it's been and was a dream to do that. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that experience, and then we'll talk about our uncredited assist. Fact-check. Fact-check.
Writing credit. Yeah. Oh, it was so much fun. I have been dreaming about hosting and performing on SNL forever. I'm such a huge fan of everything that they do. I think just artistically, artistically, it's a real feat that they managed to pull that off every week. And even if like sometimes you're like, oh, that sketch wasn't my favorite, it's still just so astounding that they're able to do something that high quality week after week. The work that they put in is insane. Getting to like witness that up close was really, really inspiring.
Like, we were blown away.
It's insane. Like, the way that they work, that just— they're such a family. They like love each other so much. They get along. They're so devoted to this like common mission and cause. I think that's why it works. I think people were like kind of iffy about it, the show would fall apart. But everyone is just so steadfast in their desire to make the best show possible. And it's just really inspiring from an artistic standpoint, like whether or not you're like into comedy or not.
That was my exact experience because I'm not traditionally a huge SNL fan and I've been there during the week, like with artists doing some reporting, etc. But I'd never seen a full show. So we were at the dress rehearsal and we were sitting in the balcony and just watching the behind the scenes of how many people it takes, the sets, the movements. You guys did an amazing stunt where it looked like people were falling down the stairs. The way they did that, I think they posted some behind the scenes on SNL. You very gamely, uh, literally did your own stuff on SNL. Um, but the thing you were alluding to is that the final skit we saw in the dress rehearsal was you and Veronica in the backseat of an Uber, and the driver breaks out into patois. Yeah, into a Jamaican patois rap. "Yo, put it on me and me go beast mode." And in the early version of the script we saw, they had you referring to what he was doing as reggaeton. Right. And John and I—
Immediately, like, we're sitting— Joe and I are sitting right next to each other, and like, immediately we're just like— So— And then at the end, we were sort of like, "Do we tell someone?" "Should we tell someone?" Like, "There's something wrong." We didn't wanna see you get flamed on the internet for it.
You guys think so. You saved me.
We managed to relay the message, uh, that it was probably— the word they were looking for was either dancehall or reggae or Jamaican dancehall. And then when I woke up the next morning, the first thing I got served on Instagram was that skit on social. And I was like, oh no, oh no.
And then I saw the subtitles and it said, okay, but you like started aggressively singing a Jamaican dancehall song, like really loud. Hell yeah.
Jamaican dancehall.
You guys saved the day.
I wasn't going to bring it up, but you mentioned it.
That's how the sausage gets made.
Just FYI.
We're fact-checking all music from here on out.
Yes.
Yes. That is the— one of the big tentpole moments of the next few weeks, you being on SNL. And we have been able to hear your album and live with it for a little while. And by the time when this comes out, it's still going to be a little bit before people, but we can talk about it. We have some details. We'll give some— give some gems out.
A little teaser.
A little teaser. So this album to me strikes me as a chronological, structured mini narrative about the rise, plateau, high plateau, and then collapse of a relationship. I'm curious, from a writing perspective, are you writing those things in real time as the experiences are happening?
Yeah, for the most part, it was— it is chronological and in the order in which it happened in my life. And, um, it's the first time that's, like, happened. And I think it was really interesting for me creatively to, like, structure it that way. But I've never been a person who's like, "I'm gonna make a concept record. It's all gonna be this, and it's gonna, like—" be this way and sound this way and look this way. Like, I write songs to, like, process my feelings. So every day when I, like, come and, like, I sit at the piano or I get the guitar, I go to the studio, it's like, what does— what is, like, burning in me to say right now? Yeah. I think it just, like, all comes from the heart. And I think it's not super, like, calculated in that way.
And so— So they sort of aggregated in a way, like you were writing songs and then you took a step back and said, huh? Yeah, it is kind of like boom, boom, boom.
Yeah, exactly. But I'm really happy with the way it turned out. And I think Dan and I, like, sort of like, after we were writing breakup songs and stuff, we like had the fun challenge of going back and like actually tweaking some of the love songs that are on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy. Like the song Purple is— was originally a love song, which feels like a big turning point on the album. It's like 6 songs and it's purple and it's like, that's when like the doubt creeps in. And then The Cure, it's like you flip the record and it's The Cure and the sort of like the unraveling, as we say, of this narrative. And so yeah, I was really happy with the way that it turned out. And sort of after the fact, we've already written like the first, like maybe 6 songs of the record and writing the more like sad sort of decomposed songs on the record. We kind of like postmortem kind of went in and changed things and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than, you know, like little moments.
Is there a specific line or stanza in one of the first songs that you remember being like, okay, I really need to reframe this, I really need to deepen this.
Is there something that sticks in your mind? Yeah, I mean, like the honeybee lyric, like having honeybee be— Honeybee is one of my favorite songs on the record, and having it also tying it back into the last song, I think was really nice for me to just sort of made it feel more like— I don't think that it's a— it's not a concept album. I think that's doing a disservice to actual concept albums, but I think it's like a capsule. Yeah, a thing. And, and so like little things like that, or changing purple, or putting that little honeybee thing kind of towards the end of the process made me feel like, okay, it's really an album now, and it's really telling this, like, one story.
I would go so far as to call it a concept album. You think? The narrative is so tight. Like, what is Good Kid, M.A.A.D City if not a song— if not an album with a beginning and an end? Sure. And then you come back to the beginning. Like, the fact that Drop Dead, the opening track, is like essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love. And one of the things I really like is there's different slices of what happiness in a relationship look like. Yeah. As you say, there's these little moments of doubt that start to creep in. When did you realize that you had an ending? Because if you're writing this in real time, presumably you were as, you know, floating on air as you were in some of these early tracks. Like, where did you think the album could end if you stayed in that zone? Yeah.
That's a good question. I mean, I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be— like, even "Stupid Song" to me, I was really inspired by this book "Simple Passion" by Annie Arnault. It's like this— she's having this affair with this person, and she's not quite happy. She's kind of just going insane. Like, everything she does, she's reminded of this person. The longing, like, overcomes her. And I was, like, really— I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable. You know what I mean? I think that there's a lot more there's a lot more to mine there than just like, "Yay! Like, oh my God, he's so hot. He loves me," that type of thing. Right. And so I was always kind of curious about trying to like mine these more depressing feelings out of these love songs. I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be, just all love songs, but trying to inject some sadness into them. And then obviously sadness in a real kind of more whole way crept its way into the end. I guess when I started making it, I didn't know how it was going to end.
And I think that's how I always start all the records. But yeah. Totally.
And you've about the destabilizing nature of love. And there's a song like Maggots for Brains, you know, which you mentioned previously that multiple songs on this album are inspired by Miranda and Steve from Sex and the City. And I knew that going in before I heard it. And that was one of the songs where I'm like, this is a very Miranda song. This idea that she's like, you know, my brain is mush, basically. Is that— is that a Miranda sentiment?
Yeah, well, it's from the scene where Miranda And Amanda is getting back together with Steve and she's like, "Whenever something funny happens, I always want to tell you about it." "Anytime something funny happens, I want to tell you." It's one of the lyrics in the second verse. But yeah, that's one of my favorite songs on the record. I really love it. I think when we made that one, like, sonically, I was like, "Oh yeah, like, this feels right. And this feels like the point in time that I'm at." I think I kind of knew, and Dan and I, who I made the record with, like, I think I like love rock music and I have such a reverence for rock music and it's all that I like really listen to. But I think going into it, I felt like a little— like it wasn't— it didn't feel exciting to me or something. Like rock in the traditional sense of like power chords, like distortion, blah, blah, blah.
That's not here on this song.
No, no, we should— yeah.
But I think a song like that feels like alternative to me without being like I Love Rock and Roll by Joan Jett, which is one of my favorite songs. Love that song. But like, you know, it it was in a more subtle way. And that was more exciting to me than writing, like, some, like, really banger thing, which maybe— I love those songs. Maybe I'll do that later. But I think, like, making that song was like, okay, this is the— I kind of, like, figured out what I, like, wanted the sound to be a little bit, or, like, what was going to be different about this record.
It's interesting to hear you talk about those— that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the prior two albums, because obviously there are certain moments on this album that are really living in, like, the— '82 to '85 world. You're sort of getting the New Romantics, you're getting The Cure, you're getting maybe a little Talking Heads. I wrote Devo down at one point. Yeah, some New Order. Yeah, a little New Order. But what does that sound and style signal to you that the pop punk and the sort of chords that you've been playing with previously don't signal?
Yeah, it just felt more exciting. There was something about the restraint of it that felt nice, or— I don't know. I was just really obsessed with that. That type of music too while I was making it. I did Gossanbury with Robert Smith, which was insane. I don't care about you, it's Friday. I'm in love. I'd always been a fan of The Cure, but since meeting him and getting to hang out with him, I kind of went back and listened to all those new wave bands like that. And I was living in England at the time, so obviously you get a lot of English band inspo. For me, in songwriting, the sentiment always comes first. And so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love and love feels like— That to me, it kind of feels like that vibe, like that, that just the emotional quality of it. I can't describe it. It's just like, that's, that's how it felt. It didn't feel like, like, you know what I mean?
You also used, I think, a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the '80s with music influenced by new wave. I think like there's some songs on here that sound like La Tigra, you know, instead of Bikini Kill, you know, both, uh, both Kathleen Hanna bands, but different, different sides of that.
Big Olivia fan, Kathleen Hanna.
Of course. You know. Catherine Hannah. I had a thought when listening to My Way that there's like some No Doubt in there. Yeah, I know you're a big Return of Saturn. Uh, and you mentioned The Cure, who spanned both of those eras, who continued making music through that, and they are a through line through the album. You allude to Just Like Heaven in Drop Dead, the first song. Then there's a song called The Cure, which will be the next song that people hear from the album that comes after Purple in the tracklist. And that's the moment where you say— you're punning, obviously, on the band title in some ways, but you say, "Love's not fixing me." It's not the be-all and end-all. Can you talk a little bit about the writing of "The Cure" and what that song means to the album's story?
Yeah. I think that song is the thesis statement of the album, "You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love." I remember— making that song and feeling so excited, like, okay, I know what I'm, like, trying to say with this thing. Um, I love that song so much. It makes me, like, emotional to listen to it now. All the pretty girls in the foreground of my mind. I thought I'd done enough, but they keep moving the line. I, I, I don't know how it started. I was on my couch and I played the chords of— and, um, wrote the verse lyrics and thought that it was really interesting and brought it to Dan and we finished it together. And yeah, it just means so much to me. I think that that was a realization that I had and you can only have when you're in a real big girl relationship. I think that for so long when I was younger, I was always reaching for something. I was like, "Oh, well, if I have this, then I'll be happier. If I have this thing in my— even in my career, I'll be happier. If I have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought he would love me, I'll feel better about myself." You know, slowly throughout the course of my life and this relationship that I'm talking about, I kind of just realized that the issues that you have aren't just gonna be solved by some other person.
Like, something can distract you, but it— like, it— and also— They're your issues. Yeah, they're your issues.
They're like, they're your issues, yeah.
I also even think that falling in love actually makes those issues even clearer to you. I think that's why it's so important. Like, some of my friends are like, well, I'm not gonna marry them. Like, why would I, you know, be in this relationship with them? I'm like, that— it's like the way that you know yourself the most in this world. Like, you could— you know yourself so deeply and so intimately by, like, falling for people and being raw and gross and, like, making mistakes. And I think that that's such a thing that's unique to being in a romantic relationship. And so I think I was also figuring that out. I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate for the first time and being like, whoa, this is holding a mirror to me, and I'm seeing that I don't like about myself. And of course, that was a tough realization. And I think that that's embedded in The Cure too. And, um, yeah, I, I really, I really love the song. It's one of my favorite songs I've ever written.
I think it's, um, also in the context of the album, you know, where it sits, you know, just after the middle, but it's long. You're lingering on it. It's like, it's like you're, you're telegraphing something just simply by saying you're gonna have to sit with this for 5 or 6 minutes. Like, it's like, that's— you're coding the meaning in the lyrics, but you're also coding in the structure, it feels like. Yeah, yeah.
I think that That's sort of like the apex of the album too. Like, I think in all the love songs leading up to it, like, there's a hint of like maybe this or dissatisfaction or like, oh, I really miss them and that's why I'm sad or blah, blah, blah. And I think when it gets to the cure, it's like the most honest part where like all the artifice is stripped away. And it's, I love a song, obviously, I mean, love writing like a power ballad that like really builds, but, um, like when I finished listening to it, it feels like it's some sort of like catharsis or like some sort of acceptance of like that this is your fate. How do you know?
As a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about. And especially— I mean, look, I'm— I haven't been 20— in my 20s for at least a few years, 4 or 5 years. But I vividly remember the intensity of feeling. I remember the dynamism of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt a week earlier and kind of like the instability of that. And if you're experiencing feelings quite intensely, and you have a creative outlet for it. What takes it from something that's in here to like, damn, I gotta, I gotta get this out? Is there a specific intensity of feeling? Is it a detail? How do you know? Yeah, it's a good question.
Um, I don't know. I think you really— everything, every time is different. I'm a big, like, quantity over quality songwriter. I write all the time about lots of things. Um, and then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good. I, I really don't know. There's not like like, I'm never like, oh, I have an idea and it's going to be an awesome idea. You just have to like—
You're not stingy about it. No, I'm not stingy about it.
I have some friends who are the opposite, who like write 5 songs a year and they're the best 5 songs you've ever heard. I write like 250 songs that are the worst, and then I write like 3 songs that I love. But I just love the process of writing. I love being alone and like playing my guitar or like writing things down. It's like so much fun for me. I think I know if I've like stumbled upon something good if I really want to listen to it like a week after I write it. Okay. Or if It makes me feel like, oh yeah, that is how I was feeling. And that's a really clear, concise way of saying it. But I don't know. There's, it's different every time.
And you're working it out in the room as well. Like you have your step in the process, then you bring it in with Dan and then sort of, I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that.
Meetings change so much. Even like you guys listening to the album, like I, like I listened to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys. And it's like, even like a month after making it, it just feels so different in your body. Like you just have totally different associations with it. And I don't know, there's, there's no science, behind it. I'm still figuring it out.
I don't know. You mentioned the ugly sides of even being in love, and one of them that you touch on on this album in what I think is an interesting way is jealousy and being territorial, which is something that has been present in your earlier music but not, as you say, from the vantage of a big girl relationship. This song "My Way" that I mentioned earlier strays a little from the central relationship narrative, and I You make a pretty direct choice to target it at another woman, in the tradition of great songs like "Jolene" or "Misery Business" or "Better Than Revenge." And given your standing among young women and how important of a songwriter you are to your audience, did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bitch?
Yeah. You know what? I haven't given it so much thought. I think I was just really in the heat of the moment writing it, and that's how it is. And sometimes you're like, I really need to get this out and I'm fucking pissed. And maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say, but I really loved the song and I love the way it turned out. And I love, love the sonics. I was going for like some Gwen Stefani vibes and then—
I caught it. No doubt. No pun intended. I said no doubt, but I didn't mean that. Untitled.
But yeah, I really love that song. It's— it's— the album isn't very angry at all. I think that's the one angry touchstone. Um, but, uh, yeah, I'm really proud of it. I stand by it.
Is it okay if you're the villain?
Is that okay? Yeah, whatever. I don't know.
No, I'm being serious, because like, I think it's fun to play that character. It is fun to play that character. But I also think that certain songwriters and certain pop— huge pop stars have had anxiety over the years of like, I'm known to be one style of person, but I am a complex person. I have these different sets of feelings, but sometimes they won't put it in songs. But there were like probably like 2 moments on this album where I was like, I think she might be okay with being the villain. Like, I wonder— and I wonder if you think of it in those terms.
Um, gosh, it's a really interesting question. I've never really thought about it. I don't know, this sounds like a cop-out, but I just like know who I am as a person really well, and I know I know my intentions and things, and I know why I write songs, and I know that I'm like a nice person. And like, I like—
I'm not suggesting you're not a nice person.
I'm not, you know, but I think like that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like something in it that I like think is like a little bit true. Like if something, if someone were to like criticize something that I was already doubting, I'd be like, ah God, like that's the stuff that gets to me. But I don't know, I also think that pop music in a really beautiful way, everyone is projecting their own experiences onto you. Like, that's the type of songwriting that I do, and that's— I love that type of songwriting. That's why I got into it. Like, so many heroes that, like, do that type of songwriting. And so I don't take it so personally. You— I mean, when I listen to my favorite pop songs, I'm thinking about my experiences and, like, me in that pop song, like, and how I felt with, like, my ex-boyfriend and blah blah blah. Like, I'm not really thinking about that person and, like, the exact specifics that they're talking about. It's—
and people can relate to to feeling angry and pissed and jealous and territorial and whatever it is. Totally. It's like that is as valid of a feeling as what would traditionally be considered a good feeling.
And I think the narrative will reveal itself over time. I think, like, whatever I— I think that that's out of my control and none of my business in a way. Fair enough.
Since Driver's License, one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well-placed curse word, especially an F-bomb. Uh, you know, Vampire also has a great one. In its chorus. Uh, it feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around. I, I mentioned— yeah, bitch. I think I counted two other F-bombs. There's a, there's a goddamn in there. Yeah, but I thought you really saved the most impactful one for what to me is like the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of The Cure. They say modern love's a cruel endeavor.
To that I say, fuck it, whatever. Did— was that intentional, the cutting back?
So it was not to consider it a crutch to really save it for those gut punch moments?
Honestly, no. I remember Dan and I the other day were like doing like clean versions of all the songs and we're like, damn, this usually, this would take us 2 days back when we were doing Sour and this took us an hour. Um, but no, I think I, I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days. I don't know what it is. I think maybe I swore more as a teenager, as we all do, maybe.
I curse way too much, which I've only realized now that I have a 2-year-old who repeats what I say. Oh my God. And now I'm like, oh, I really need a— I really need a couple hours.
It's tough. Dan, my producer, has a 2-year-old too, and we hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio. She goes up to her dad the other day and she's like, Daddy, why does Olivia say fuck so much? And I was like—
Ah, see, this is what I'm trying to avoid.
I was like, oh, she got me by name. She's really funky. The other day also, we were in the car. We like picked her up from school or whatever, and I was singing along to the song on the radio, and she's like, starts like crying Daddy, I hate it when Olivia sings. And I was like, oh no, I gotta reconsider a lot right now.
Probably because she associates it with Daddy going to work. Yeah, that's true.
Oh wow, that's true.
Wow, that's, that's grim, kind of dark, you know?
Like, it's her psychiatrist.
Yeah, literally 5 years of therapy down the line for that. Like, I can't listen to Olivia Rodrigo. I can't.
That's a really, really fun. Oh, that's really—
wow. The tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself. There are so many moments on your last album where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that was to navigate. And how do you identify in the real world, not in art, but in the real world, how a person is trustworthy? Or is a person trustworthy? Like, what are the things that are your either triggers or touchstones, and how have those things changed over the last 4 or 5 years? Yeah. How do you know if someone's trustworthy?
God, that's such a hard question. I don't know if I have like a profound answer.
That's all right. This is— look, the podcast is at least together. Yeah, podcast is at least 10% therapy.
Yeah, I know, I feel that. Um, I don't know. Well, you know my biggest red flag? It's not profound at all, but like, it's all right when I hang out with someone and they're like, gang, Glock, Glock 3000. No, I— whenever I meet someone and they're like, yeah, like a few of my friends, they just like, they just ghosted me. I don't know what happened. I'm like, mm. Calls coming from inside the house. Like, that's really—
yeah, a few. It's like one maybe.
Maybe like, okay, something. But I don't even know, like, I—
that's a real spill. That's a real spill.
Like having like intense falling outs with your friends. Like I've never really had that in my life. I think, I think maybe once or twice, but like when people that said repeated occurrence, I'm like, hmm, interesting, interesting, interesting. Interesting. I think friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust someone. I think like someone being able to hold down a long-term beautiful friendship is like the best thing that you could do. That's like you're— you have emotional depth, you could care about other people, and other people trust you, which is huge. Yeah, I think friendship is a big indicator, but I don't know, I'm still figuring out. I'm sure I'll get betrayed more in my life.
Who knows? I think vampires— of course vampires are really example of trying to figure that out in real time and maybe being fooled by someone who you thought was interested in you but then was really after your fame or your notoriety or trying to get something from you.
Bloodsucker, fame fucker, bleeding me dry like a goddamn vampire. I think that when I listen to that album, it's like so interesting. When you're in it, you like can't tell what it is. But when I listen to it like these days, like I was like rehearsing for a show the other day and and, like, listen to all the songs back, it just, like, really is, like, a 19-year-old disillusionment with the world and just feeling, like, so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days, but, like, looking back, yeah, it was, like, betrayal and, like, finding your footing. And I think— I think I did— I remember going into the album being like, "I don't want to write about, like, being newly famous because that sucks, and, like, I hate when people do that." And I think that there was— hopefully, like, it was in there, like, a little tactfully sprinkled in, but I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's It's unlike any other 19-year-old going to college. You're just, like, trusting people. You're so open. You're around all these people that you've never been around, and you're, like, making all these mistakes and, like, figuring shit out in real time.
How do you look back on Guts, not only artistically, but as a moment in your career? Because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album. Yeah. You know, people invoke the sophomore slump a lot in terms of, I think, exactly what you're saying, where it's like you— your whole life goes into your first album. Then between your first and your second album, if the first one does really well, maybe the only thing you have to write about is sort of what it's like to become newly famous, and is that enough, etc. That album was successful on its own terms, of course, but I wonder how you look back on how it was received and how it performed and how that influenced what you did on your third album. Because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album album, a capital A album with a beginning, middle, and end. Thank Thank you. And I wonder if any of that came from either how Guts went or didn't go for you.
Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I, I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion for myself. Like, Sour, that was crazy. What happened was Sour was crazy. And at the time, I didn't realize how crazy it was. Like, obviously I was like, wow, I'm so happy, I'm grateful. Yeah, but I didn't realize that, that like is insane. And I was 17 when it like all happened. It's so wild. And like, if I were to like be an outsider and like watch that happen to somebody, I'll be like, oh my God, like, so I think I couldn't— I didn't realize it at the time. But so I have like a lot of compassion for myself even after the aftermath of Sour. Like, that was so much pressure. Like, how— it was so insane. And just like people on the internet and like all this craziness. And when you're 19, you don't know who you are in general. You don't know who your real friends are. You don't know who you want to date. You don't know what, like, you really want to be doing with your life in a real concrete sense.
And so it's just— it was a lot. And looking back, I'm so proud of that record. I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh God, it's like I'm never going to make anything, like, as big and as good as Sour and blah, blah, blah. But, like, looking back, I'm so proud of so many of those songs. Like, I think, like, "All-American Bitch" is, like, my favorite song I've ever written. I'm the perfect all-American bitch. And I think like, "Bad Idea"— I remember thinking "Bad Idea" right at the time, I was like, "Ugh, it's too weird." And I'm like, "I love that song so much now." Yeah, it's just having a little space totally changes your perspective on it. But yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even stuff where I'm like, "Oh God, that song could have like, I could have—" lived without that song. Um, it just, you know, I don't think I'll ever regret like writing honestly about where I am in, in my life, and I'll always have like compassion and love for—
Yeah, I was gonna say, so you hear them both as art but also as documents. Yeah, like the intensity. For sure, for sure. This album feels very settled to me. Like, obviously you're going through an emotional arc, but you have clarity about that emotional arc. It's not— you're not zigzagging. You're kind of like, I think I, I think I see what's happening here, even if what I'm seeing is bad enough. Yeah, yeah, even if it was tough, but it's like, I see what's going on here. And does that track with how you live off the— off the album? Like, is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel like much more lucid as an assessor of the world? Like, tell me about that. God, for sure.
But I just think that that's growing up. It's like, it's an interesting thing to grow up with the people who listen to my music. Like, I feel like we're kind of around the same age, like, going through the same things, and just like the lucidity that I see things with. But it's not unique to to me. Like, none of it is. So, like, I just— I, I think you just collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more. And I don't know, every album though, I feel like I'm learning about myself, but I'm also, like, learning how to write songs every album. I don't think I'll ever feel like, okay, I know how to do this, like, perfect, I got this, I, like, I know exactly what I want this to be. Like, every time I sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what keeps it, like, exciting and fun as a, like, a creative person is like, there's never— yeah, I, I have like tips and tricks, and I like know all the pop songwriting tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff, but I just really feel like I'm like endlessly learning.
And that's what I'm so grateful that I get to do this job and just like keep being curious about stuff.
One thing that I really enjoyed about this album, there, there are two songs that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel really unadorned. So it's like you're approaching both this part on Honeybee, Honeybee, and then I think it's— is it less on this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, okay, so there's an esthetic choice here that's similar but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment, of the emotion of the lyric with the production choices, and how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrained thing and how— when it's time to be we're going straight to the new wave, or we're going straight to the pop punk.
Yeah. Dan and I love to, like, throw shit at the wall. And I think also this record, the feeling of, like, being, like, intoxicated with love for someone, it feels very rich and, like, orchestral. And, like, "Honeybee," there's so much in there. There's, like, a choir, and there's a string section, and there's this, like, beautiful piano in it. And there's just so much. It feels really rich. And because that's how it felt at the time. You know what I mean? That's how it felt to be in love. I think a song like "Less," Um, was added obviously later in the album-making process. And I think, I think, yeah, it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song and we were like, oh, it just needs a big bridge. That's Cigarette Jam.
And that one is produced.
Yeah. A lot of production on that. Yeah.
There's no restraint there. We talked about the, the New Wave influence here. And I wonder on these songs, on the piano ballads, essentially, what were your sonic touchstones for those versus the, the more upbeat?
Songs. Yeah, I was talking to, um, do you guys know Wiseblood? Yeah, of course. She's so great, and she, uh, sang on SNL with me. She's just a huge fan. Beautiful harmonies. Beautiful. She has one of the greatest voices. She's angelic, beautiful, wonderful person. Um, but I was talking to her about it, and she just turned in a new record. She was like, it's so funny, I like tried so much different stuff and tried to like explore so much, and you just like always go back to like what you're good at at the end of the day sometimes too. Which I think that there was just a part of me, I was like, I just want to write a singer-songwriter song that's like classic, and that's that's like, sort of my sensibilities sometimes. And I love exploring and doing other stuff. But like, that's sort of, like, 12-year-old Olivia fell in love with songwriting for songs like that. And so I really liked that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, "Honeybee." And it was like one of those ideas. I just like, at home, and I like, wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought like, "Wow, like, I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe." And And in the context of the album, I find it to be actually the saddest song on the album.
I find it to actually be devastating, which is really— it's, it's "You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love" like to a tee. It's, it's this like, it's this love song that's filled with so much hope, but also like a sort of knowing.
You know, you're right. Exactly. It's like, it's the— yeah, there's the music playing in the background. Very softly. Exactly. The crash is on the other side.
But yeah, it takes me back to even pre-Driver's License, your first big song for High School Musical. The series, All I Want. And that's one of these very yearning, yeah, extreme piano ballads. Who— songs like that were you playing on the piano when you were 12 and 13 and a kid? Like, yeah, when you wanted to just belt and yearn and feel.
And Fiona Apple was always my, like, yearner piano queen. I got really into Tori Amos while I was making Guts because I felt like she was like a piano yearner, but it also felt like edgy and rock. And I love her. Yeah, punk on the piano. I was really into the Dresden Dolls too. Like, that was punk piano. There's something that I'll always love about just like a plain old piano song like that. I just feel like it's from the heart, singer-songwriter type of vibe. Uh, yeah.
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Com/subscribe. What is your guys' favorite song on the record? Can I be narcissistic and ask?
Yeah, of course. I'm, uh, how do you say me plus you equals heart?
How do you say it?
How would you say it?
Um, I don't know, I haven't been talking about it a lot.
You have, like, we're going to decide right now. Me plus you, call me plus you.
I think me plus you, or is it you plus me?
It's you plus me. You plus me.
I don't even know. I don't even know.
So you plus me, we'll call it you plus me equals, equals greater than 3 heart something.
I don't know. We're gonna have to workshop this.
The lyric is you plus me, you plus me forever. Yeah. I think it's a masterpiece. Really? I really do. I, I, I wrote that in my notes. I'm not just saying that to you. Oh my God. Yeah. It's very Cranberries to me. Love it. A little Sixpence on the Richer. It's like that, that jangly '90s, you know, I just, I think it has, it both has that line in the bridge that I mentioned earlier that I love, that I I think is the greatest away message on this album. You're a little too young for AIM away messages, but that's where you put the quotes that, that when you were really—
or the Drake quotes.
If there were Drake quotes at the time. That to me, and I just think it has a great build and energy.
Yeah, that's far and away my favorite on there.
Was that— you weren't expecting that?
That's never been anyone's favorite. You're the first person who said that to me. I'm really curious about that.
What's your— well, I mean, I'll tell you mine, but what's yours? Um, she said Honey Bee. I love Honey Bee also. Okay, but I'm sorry, respond to—
respond to Joe's. I'm very happy we almost cut that one from the—
come on, are you actually serious?
It was one of the first we made, and you, you know how you, you just always like the song that you made.
That makes sense. Yeah, I know. Carve our names into the car seat leather as the owner of a very nice car. Do you know how stressful I found that line? And I was like, look, maybe Maybe in my 20s.
I've seen some scratchy. I love them that much.
I would forever—
Do not touch the car seat leather. Do not do that.
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm happy with that.
Oh, that's wild that you were thinking of even cutting. That's insane. Yeah, that's so— To me, okay, so Begged. Yeah. Um, You Plus Me, Honey Bee, and Drop Dead. Okay. Um, and Begged—
Wow, this is so funny. You guys give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp. That's really interesting. What are we hearing behind the scenes?
What are the, what are the hits? What are fan favorites.
Every— everyone loves The Cure the most.
I mean, The Cure is obviously— it's a great song, it's a centerpiece, but it all— but when I was listening to in the context of the album, I was like, this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album, because it really is connective thread from A to B. And but in these micro moments— and also, I love, like, I love a wailing ass, like, hell yeah, I love a wailing, you know. But like, even the turn of phrase— I mean, you know, I wrote down a bunch of different lyrics. Even the turn of phrase on Begged. Nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, I begged. And just the sophistication of that sentiment, the understanding that just because you may have gotten something, it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing. And the fact that you actually might be respon— like, you might have invented the solu— like, you might have invented it out of thin air, and then it wasn't actually real because you were sort of forcing it. Yeah. No. I— incredibly sophisticated thought process.
Yeah, I, I think that's a difference also between like an album like Sour and this album. Like when you're in a, a relationship that's deeper and you're older and it's more nuanced, it's less like, fuck you for doing this to me. Like it's like, oh, I think that song was like, oh yeah, this happened because I set this up and like you fell short, but I didn't really— you never promised that you were going to do that. And like it's like a— it's definitely more nuanced take than I feel like I had the emotional capacity to write about before. Sure. Um, and so yeah, that song is— that song is really special to me.
That it's very— yeah, I found it to be very savvy, like, just like very emotionally savvy. And I think, you know, like, obviously as people who cover music extensively and just like, I feel like, you know, you feel like you get to a point where you're like, I've heard every metaphor, I've heard every detail, and then someone has a turn of phrase and you're like, oh yeah, I didn't hear that one. Yeah. So this was— that was a great moment for me.
I'm interested in your development as a lyricist and how has your lyric writing changed changed between albums 2 and 3 versus between albums 1 and 2?
I think honestly the, the challenge for me was in writing a love song. Like, I think that was a daunting task for me, someone who was very known for writing breakup songs and being angry and sad, and people love that. Like, yes. And there obviously is that weird, like, singer's curse thing where you're like, do people only like me when I'm sad? You know what I mean? And so that was— I think that was the challenges of trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting. Also, I think it was just like a thing that I wanted to prove to myself that I didn't have to be miserable to write a song that I liked.
Um, did you used to think that happy songs were like less valid than sad songs?
I mean, when I was a teenager, for sure. Like, when you're a teenager, that's the shit that you listen to because you're so depressed, you know what I mean? But, um, I, I love— I mean, as I get older, I think like writing a beautiful love song. Some of them— my favorite love songs are fucking devastating. Like, like Love Song by The Cure is like this, like, however far away I will always love you, however long I stay. Kill me. That's so sad and so beautiful. Yeah, it was just me trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white, you know? Like, you can— all of these things can exist at once. You can be in love and also feel insecure, and you can be in love and also feel depressed, and you can you know, break up with someone and still, like, love them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's just— all of these things can be true at once. And I think obviously as a teenager you don't have the emotional, like, capacity to really internalize that. And so obviously it wasn't reflected in the albums.
But, um, so I think that that was the challenge lyrically.
Do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say, oh, 24-year-olds also maybe don't know that much about themselves or the world? Like, are you— is that— is that like— is that exciting to you that eventually even like this where you do—
I'm gonna be like, I'm so stupid and naive. Yeah, I mean, like, it's that—
do you think, do you think like that?
Yeah, I know.
I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just like, the way you look at your teenage years now, like, you will— whether it's in your 30s or 40s or later, you'll probably look at your 20s similarly. Like, is that something you look forward to, that self-knowledge?
Hell yeah, I'm so excited about it. It's a really interesting thing to have so much of your emotional whatever, like, like, uh, chronicled. It's insane.
I can't even imagine. All I have is blogs and tweets and articles. There's a lot there though, but not to the level of detail that you do. And the fact that all of those feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people that they will live on long beyond when you stop feeling them.
Yeah. Yeah, it's really beautiful. I, I—
it's a very unique job you have.
Very unique thing. I'm, I'm very, very lucky. I, I still to this day don't always understand how I, like, got so lucky. Like, and that sounds like I'm— like, I, I think I'm not, like, trying to demean myself. I think I'm talented and I work hard, but, like, going to a show and, like, looking out into the audience and seeing all of these, like, girls who are, like, 9 years old, like, crying to these songs, and it so deeply touches them, and it's so clearly like affecting their life in a way that I could have never ever imagined. It's just such a— it's a really, really wild thing that I feel like really privileged to be able to do. I don't really know how it ha— I, I can't— I'm not like masterminding it. It just is like this beautiful human connection, and I just feel so lucky that I get it in such a potent form in my job. And I, I just feel very, very grateful, and I hope that I can like keep being a positive thing in girls' lives like that. It's something that I think about a lot.
Speaking That audience and the platform that you have, I think one thing that separates your generation of pop star, even from the one that immediately precedes it, is like your comfort being explicitly political and using that stage to speak to young impressionable fans who care about what you say. You know, you memorably spoke out, uh, when Roe v. Wade was overturned. You've since come out against ICE. You've spoken about Gaza. Uh, have you received any pushback behind the scenes? Anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business to use that stage and the audience you have to espouse what are, in this day and age, sometimes controversial views?
Honestly, I feel like I'm surrounded with people who are very like-minded, and I really appreciate that. No one has ever been like, "Don't do that, no." And I always say, like, I am— I really try to stay educated on things. Like, I, I make a conscious effort to try my very best because I think that's important for everyone. But I don't know everything. I don't— I couldn't list a bunch of statistics about things. I'm not like a geopolitical scientist. Like, but I'm an artist, and like, what I do for my job is like, this is how I feel, and I present it to people. And like, I think it would just be disingenuous to be like, I don't feel heartbroken about what's going on in Gaza, you know what I mean? Like, that's just like, as an artist, I feel like that's just what you do. And, um, that's my job. Uh, but I don't know, I also feel really weird taking like credit, being like, yeah, I'm so like, I always feel like I could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that. So it's a, it's, you know, I don't know.
Was it something like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in, in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political? Is that something that comes from your household? Is it something that comes from you know, did something where you're around a bunch of people in your teenage years who really encouraged that in you? Like, where— what if you sort of trace it back to its origin? Where do you think that it came from? Because you've been doing it. This isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous. And usually that's exactly the stretch of time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do that?
Yeah, this is a really interesting question. I It's going to make me emotional, but my parents are awesome, and my parents never made me feel stupid for saying something or never made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think I grew up in a household where me being outspoken and performing and saying what I believe in and being ambitious was just so supported. And I think my parents— I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy because my parents are the least stage-parenty parents you've ever met in your whole life. Um, but it just like bred, I think, a sense of like ambition in me and like wanting to express myself and like do things and hopefully be a positive like influence on something or someone. I don't know. But, um, I, I don't know. I think I, I think I owe that to them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind without, you know, feeling ashamed.
And so there is in your mind like a moral component to being an artist. If you're going to be a person who has a voice, who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility kind of comes with that?
Yeah, I think it's just a job. I don't even know if I would say, like, it's your responsibility to, like, step up, but I just think it's like— it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on a song. It's like the same— it's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just, like, maybe expressed in a different medium.
Most recently, there were some internet detective work, as there always is, around you, uh, people claiming that you liked a post about protesting the Met Gala. Enjoy your damn gala. Did you not attend for moral and political reasons, or is that an overread?
Oh gosh, um, I, I just— I'm not really a fashion girl, really. I'm not a fashion girl.
Can I just say, look, also, can I just say candidly, many people who attend the Met Gala are not fashion people, and you know who you are, and I know who you are.
Gosh, how do I choose my words wisely? Um, I just— it, it, it— I think, I think I've— this is my third album. I think that I, um, I feel— I don't feel like I, I need to do things that don't like bring me joy or inspire me or, or, uh, feel me or feel aligned with my like values or something like that. Like I, I, it's just, it's not like as fun or exciting anymore. Like, what's fun or exciting is like talking to you guys or making a song that I really love or like making music that I think is cool, right?
You can say no. You're at the point in your career where you can say no to things.
You can be a little more discerning, and I think that that's cool. And I, I, um, and not a setback.
Like, it's because I know in the, in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I want to say yes to everything.
It may never come again.
Yeah, like literally, like, a new— there are doors behind the doors I didn't even know were doors that I could open. But now that you've seen the doors, there's just— there's no— like, plenty of doors.
Yeah, I mean, and it's— it's sometimes as fun and sometimes it's exciting, but sometimes I just— I don't know. I feel like what's really fun and cool is like making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I don't know, it's not super complicated, I suppose.
Speaking of internet detective work, there's a lot of sort of public speculation about your relationship with Taylor.
Ongoing speculation that the Disney alum and the Heiress tour performer are not in friendly terms, Taylor was retroactively credited on one of Olivia's biggest hits, Deja Vu, due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor's song Cruel Summer.
You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles and you guys are walking out at the same time, and then there's people on the internet being like, are they facing each other? Are they facing— I wonder how stuff like that strikes you, given that I imagine you know how you feel and you know the state of play. How do you view that layer of scrutiny? Yeah. I don't know.
I don't really, like, read too far into it. I think it, like, comes with the territory, and it's par for the course. And I think if I dove into every internet detective sleuth that, like, got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationships, I think I'd just go crazy. Like, there's just not enough time in the day.
Yeah. I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around "Driver's License" that anything after that— For sure. You were like, you went through it. You went through people trying to figure out, "Who is this song about and why?" And was that nice to get that out of the way early on? Maybe it wasn't nice to go through, but I do think so.
I think it made me, uh, feel detached from it. I had to detach from it in order to like literally like be okay. It was such a crazy experience for like everyone involved. And, um, I, yeah, I think I just had to learn to detach. And I think that that's something that I hopefully I'm good at these days, still trying to like detach from people who, like, don't know every little detail of my life. I think, um, I think you just have to, otherwise you just go kind of crazy.
I also think there can be value in someone like you setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel. You know, one of the other things you've been a lightning rod over, uh, you know, bringing back a conversation from 20, 25 more years ago is like the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to Riot Grrrl and what it means to dress subversively, or other people who say, no, no, it's infantilizing, or it's played out as a symbol.
Like, that's making me so upset. Not even for me, like, I don't care.
People could say whatever they want. What does that—
that— what it was really, like, disturbing is I feel like I actually wear— I have worn outfits that are, like, maybe revealing on stage. Like, I've been on stage in, like, a sparkly bra and, like, little shorts, and, like, which my right. That's fun. I felt cool and comfortable in that. And like, that wasn't inappropriate, but me like fully covered up in a dress that people deemed to be like childlike was inappropriate. And I just think it, it just like shows how we just like really normalize pedophilia in, in our culture. And also it's just as this, this like rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little, which is like, don't wear that because then a man is going to sexualize your body and it's your fault. Like, it's so weird and, um, I didn't think that I looked sexy in that at all. I was like, "This is so cool. I feel like I look like Kathleen Hanna or, like, Courtney Love." All these people who are my heroes. And I felt cool and comfortable in it. And, like, I just think if we start dressing in a way that's like, "Oh, I don't want some fucking freak to think that I, like, am sexy like a baby," or, like, some crazy thing like that, like, I just think it's, like, losing the plot a little bit.
Yeah, I'm just very protective of, like, younger women and girls, and I just— I don't ever want them to be fed that rhetoric, I guess.
And also protective protect their right as they grow up to do whatever it is, whatever it ends up being.
Weird cult. It's like, yeah, you shouldn't be responsible for some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never your intention. Like, I— yeah.
One thing that I was curious about listening to this album, you talked about girls in your audience, seeing 9-year-olds, 10-year-olds cry. What do you want people to actually take away from the album? Are you telling them a story a romantic relationship? Are you telling them a story about emotional development? Are you just making songs you hope people sing along to? What's the thing? Like, obviously the finished product is a collection of songs, but there's more. What do you want those girls to listen to on the day it comes out? To listen to— what do you want them to feel and think?
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I, I, I, I want them to like kind of be along for the ride in the story, cuz this is a story. It's like with a beginning, a middle, and an end. I think, like, the goal for any piece of work for me would be, like, to provide some sense of, like, emotional catharsis. I think that would be amazing. Or some sort of, like, understanding or— I don't know. I just feel like growing up, if I heard a song that spoke to me, I was like, "Oh yeah, that's how I feel." And it helps me better understand myself and the way I feel around, I don't know, insert issue here. You know, I think that that's the dream. And I would love it if that was somebody's takeaway. That's the takeaway.
Yeah. Do you feel like your fan— like, I assume you have fan interactions that are more one-on-one, not simply like in an arena or in a stadium. What do you hear in those conversations? Like, the sort of micro moments?
Like, what are you hearing from those girls? Yeah, it's so sweet. I mean, especially the young girls.
Yeah, that's sort of what I mean. I love that.
And I think, like, sometimes, I don't know, people have been like, "Oh, don't you want to, like, lean into your older audience?" I'm like, "That's so cool." cool that, like, an 8-year-old girl finds, like, my song to be moving. Like, that is, like, the most special thing ever. Like, I remember being 8 years old and listening to music, and it just meant so much to me. And the fact that I could, like, maybe be a semblance of that for someone is so exciting. And I don't know, I just think that, like, people— like, young people especially— are just so emotional. Like, I love hearing stories from, like, girls who, like, have never held a boy's hand, and they're like, "Traitor is my favorite song. Like, my friend at school changed friend groups, and it, like, devastated me." And it's like, that is their whole, like, it like turns their whole life on its head. And it's like so cool to like watch them process all those feelings. And also in an environment like a concert where it feels like this communal processing of emotions. I, um, I watched this documentary the other day called like, it's called like Spirits in the Forest.
Have you guys watched it? It's about Depeche Mode. Oh wow. It's about Depeche Mode, but it's not even, it's not a concert film about, it's like, doesn't have anything really to do with the members of Depeche Mode. It's like these 5 people who are huge Depeche Mode fans and it follows their life leading up to like the last Depeche Mode concert in like Berlin or something. Oh, wow. That's a good idea.
It's so beautiful.
And it's just about like how going to a concert is not even about like the lighting or like what someone's wearing. Couldn't matter less. It's like these people and the stories that they bring to this concert. Like one of the women who the documentary talked about, she like hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life, didn't remember where she was, didn't remember her name, didn't remember her husband's name. But she remembered every single Depeche Mode lyric. And when I woke up, I didn't remember anything of my former life except one thing, which is Depeche Mode. Like, how incredible is that?
Sounds like a Daily Mail story. No, but it's just like a good one. Yeah, yeah, they're all good. That's wild. That's incredible.
You guys should watch it. But yeah, we will. Like, stuff like that, it's like, it's just so cool that I I get to play a show or do something, and all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show, and we all share it together. Like, it kind of doesn't— I feel like a concert is— It's like 75% of what makes a concert great is the audience. Maybe even more. Maybe it's like 80%. It's like, that's the number one musical instrument or, like, cool thing.
Like, that does all the talking for you. And you've become this bard of girlhood, and you talk about the influence of Sofia Coppola on what you've done, and you work a lot with Petra Collins, and that's been a subject a muse for her as well. And you mentioned this peanut gallery idea of like, "Oh, don't you want to speak to your older audience?" You know, you look at what Sofia Coppola has done, and she did The Virgin Suicides decades ago, and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a different angle. Do you feel like that's ever a subject that you will have to let go of and move on from as you age and mature? Or do you think it could remain a focus? A forever theme for you?
I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't, like, come into my album being like, "This is girlhood." Like, I think I just try to, like, be like, "This is where I'm at right now." And I think that just maybe is girlhood because I feel like a girl. But I'm 23, so I guess I'm a woman now. But, you know, I don't know. I just think there's something beautiful about, like, this shared experience that we all have. And even, like, something like "Driver's License" was a really special experience for me on so many levels. But that song meant so much to me because it was about my experience, but also it just, like, united other people in their own experience of, like, a first heartbreak or something like that.
There's one line that jumped out at me on this album because I— I think on earlier songs, on earlier albums, something that comes up here and there is like you encounter someone, you're encountering a guy, and he's delivering you a line or a bit, and then you have this awakening that like he's delivered the line or the bit previously, right? And then that's that moment of like, wait a minute, like that's, that's practice, that's rehearsed. But then there's a line on this album where you say, all my ex-boyfriends have heard these lines.
You call yourself out.
Yeah, right. But I was like, but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood as a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves, I heard that line and I was like, oh, like this feels like just the tiniest suggestion of leaving some of that other energy behind and saying like, I do too, I do it too. Is that— am I right to pick up on that as like a theme in that song? And also maybe broadly speaking on the album.
Yeah, it's like what we were saying before. I think, like, the album hopefully is my most nuanced approach at a relationship. And, like, it's, you know, a real relationship where two people, like, know each other and love each other deeply isn't like, "Well, you were mean to me that one time." There's just so much ebb and flow. You're just, like, learning about yourself and, like, your shortcomings and, like, the ways in which you are— have failed or have, like, you know, or sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship. Like, I think hopefully that there are moments in the record where I kind of acknowledge my own, um, part in maybe some, like, negative parts of the relationship.
Yeah, of course. Yeah, no one's talking about—
no one's innocent. Love, holiness, mirror it to yourself. Being comfortable playing something like a villain or calling yourself out for it, uh, also very Sex and the City. Uh, it got— in prepping for this, it got us— did you guys watch Sex and the City countless amount of times, but it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who, who's who.
Okay, wait, tell me who you guys are.
You want to guess?
I'm like one of the girls.
Yes. Yeah, we kept this to the core part. Yeah, we need to do men later.
I've heard people be like, I'm Magda. I'm like, girl, get out of here.
We did a, we did a, uh, a main and a Ryza.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, I think I think you're a Charlotte Maine. Wow. In the Carrie writers room. You think I'm a little uptight?
Wow. Damn, son.
That's interesting. John, I think accurately, this is actually a twist, said that I'm a Miranda with a dash of Samantha. With a dash of Samantha. And John is actually the Carrie.
Wait, let her guess. Let her guess. I don't know. Let her guess. It's okay. You can get it wrong. It's totally fine. You don't know. Yeah, like that. There's no wrong answer except all the wrong answers. I know.
Can't believe you called me a Charlotte.
Sick, sick. I love it. I love to see it. Oh my God. I know you're really on the spot. This is the hardest part of the conversation.
I'm going to say Carrie with a dash of Samantha.
Very close. Okay. I'm actually— I feel like I'm a Carrie with Charlotte.
Okay. Which is— is that not what you identify as?
Yeah, no, I think I'm a Charlotte with, with, with Carrie.
Charlotte first. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this was instructive because Because sometimes the answer that I might arrive at myself, maybe it's a little bum-bad, you know? But they arrived at it for me.
I mean, Jon Favreau's gay. Obviously a carry.
Like, Jon is obviously a carry. Plain derogatory? What does that mean? With all the complications that entails. Unbelievable. With all the complications. Yes. OK. Uh, yes. Fine.
Should we hit a couple questions in our lightning round?
Whatever, man. Love. I love this.
That's the best part. It's groundbreaking journalism.
It's important also that, you know, you have to build lore. Also, we're building lore.
I have a custom Sex and the City shirt that I meant to wear today that I did not. It's a one of one made for me by a very dear friend, and I'm very sad I forgot to wear it today.
I love that. I love that. I have a few, like, like, you know how like cast and crew gets like a, like a thing at the wrap? I have a few Sex and the City wrap stuff. I don't know how I got it. Like from eBay? Like gift? Yeah, from eBay. Maybe it's fake. I don't know. I still wear it with, with Pride.
All right, so 52 cards in the Popcast deck. Oh wow, each one corresponds to a pre-written question. Okay, some are deep, some are shallow, uh, and we'll see where the fate takes you.
All right, this is so fun. Thanks for having me, you guys.
No, this is a— we're having a dream.
What do you got?
Okay, I got a 2 of Diamonds. 2 of Diamonds, or 2 of Sparkles, as I say. Nice.
Okay, okay, 2 of Sparkles. Yeah. Okay, again, we continue to learn that people's relationships relationship to playing cards is beyond— I didn't even know you could have unusual relationships to playing cards.
No, I have, I have the most unusual— I love playing cards so much. I travel with 4 playing cards on me at all times because I have a game. Yeah, 4 decks. What do you play? My manager's got me a Bottega carrying case for my— just for, just for your cards? It's like so bougie cuz I don't go anywhere without my cards. We got to get you a podcast.
Yeah, we're going to get you a podcast. We're going to mail you a podcast. I would love that.
We're going to mail you a podcast.
Wait, what games do you play? I play this game called Cambio It's like, I think, Golf, called Golf in other places. And then this game called Nertz I really like. That's like multiple player solitaire. You're like deep cutting card games. Yeah, it's no Go Fish for me. Like, wow. No way. I still have solitaire. Like, I'm trying to be on my phone less, and so if I'm like having that itch, I'll just play solitaire.
Wow. Can I just briefly identify myself as an older person? Okay. Um, does the name, the game Egyptian Ratscrew mean anything to anyone?
Yeah, I've heard of that. Big in my circle.
School camp Egyptian Rats crew champion. Wow, we're gonna play me and you. Yeah, I was, I was killing it. I was annihilating the older kids. It was a great time in my life, like one of my early, like, highlights. It was a great moment. All right, 2 of Sparkles. I might just refer to them as Sparkles from now on. Okay, this is a tough one. Some of these are light, some of these are hard. This is a tough one, I would say. What is the most difficult thing that's happened to you in your personal life that your career prevented you from dealing with properly?
Oh my God, that's the deepest question.
A couple people have pulled this. It's been, it's been quite revealing.
I, I've led a very charmed life. I haven't had anything really awful happen. Um, I think, uh, this is like in no way woe is me, but I think I think, uh, I feel really sad that I like didn't really have a childhood. Well, that's—
I mean, basically huge and total.
Like, I'm totally okay, but, um, yeah, I was—
yeah, that, that's, that answer is like, that's the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a little sad.
Is it, is it a persistent kind of like low-grade, low hum? Yeah, something you think about a lot, but not maybe at intense spikes, but it's kind of always like hovering for Yeah, it reveals itself in certain, certain ways.
Types of interactions, types of relationships. It's just a push and pull. Like, I live one of the most amazing lives and I get to travel the world and like have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you. But like, I, yeah, I didn't ever— I wasn't in high school. I didn't have a good group of friends in high school.
I was just going to say, was it tough to form friendships? Super hard.
And it is even hard, I think, for me. I have a wonderful group of friends now that I'm really, like, lucky and grateful for. But I do feel like I'm so ahead in certain areas of my life, and then maybe, like, in some, like, social areas, I'm, like, a little behind. Yeah, sure. Um, just because I was— I'm a homeschooled only child. Like, it was a very lonely, like, upbringing. And, uh, I think that's why I, like, wrote so many songs too, is it made me feel less alone. Yeah. And, um, yeah, it made me feel understood. And, uh, yeah, it's all good.
It's all good. No, no, but it's also—
it's fine. Even if it's not all good, it's great that you have the perspective. You know, it's not— it's not something you're gonna wake up 10 years from now be like, damn, I never thought about that. You're—
yeah, I think that actually leads me back to something I feel on this album, which is that you're clear-eyed about not being clear-eyed sometimes. And that's a— that's a cool place to be.
Yeah, I like that. Next album. Okay, okay. Nine of Clovers. Again, amazing.
I'm— I'm— I, I learned something every week.
The show. Clovers and Sparkles.
Clovers and Sparkles. Um, what sparks your jealousy?
Oh my God, you're, you're pulling the hard ones. I know.
I mean, listen to the album, you'll see.
Uh, yeah, uh, I don't know. I mean, like, romantic jealousy is definitely a thing that I've talked about in like all three albums. Yeah. It definitely gets, like, less all-encompassing, though, as I get older.
What about non-romantic jealousy?
Yeah, like just a really nice bag or a pair of shoes.
Or just, like, interpersonal jealousy.
I mean, I get jealous of people's songs all the time. Like, not in a way where I'm like, "Argh, I don't like you." But, like, that's— but that's also a really great feeling to, like, hear someone's song and be like, "God, I wish I wrote that." For some people, jealousy is very animating.
No, I'm jealous. Really a good motivator. Really a great motivator.
It's like an indicator that, like, this is what I want. This is what deep down I desire, you know.
That's real spill. Yeah, that's real spill.
All right, pull another card. Maybe you'll get a less intense one.
I know, my God, the hard hitters. All right, okay, Ace of Clovers again.
This is easier. Uh, what are you good at besides what you do for a living?
Oh, that's a good question. It's hard. Cards, apparently.
Cards. Yes, that's— you're the first person to say they have 4 decks on hand at all times.
Yeah, what else? Secret talent. I'm really good at cards.
I'm really good at yoga. Okay. I really got into it last tour because I was really stressed, and now I'm really good and I can like do tricks and stuff.
You like, you Skytang, Adrian, like who's your—
yeah, you got to— yeah, on the YouTube. Yeah, I do love yoga with Adrian. Um, no, I, I—
you can do the thing where you like hold yourself on the hands and, and, uh, your legs are jutting out. That's breakdancing. I've seen videos.
I can—
I don't, I don't I don't know if I can do that quite yet. A girl can dream, a girl can dream. Yeah, I love that. What am I good at? You know, I think I'm a good friend.
Damn, I think I'm a good friend. I really just upended the question. You really— damn, you really just rewrote the question in real time. It's unbelievable.
It's like in a job interview when they're like, what's your greatest weakness? You're like, I work too hard.
I know. Have you ever had a job interview?
No, I've never had like a regular job, which is sad.
You've had auditions?
Yeah, I just had auditions.
I think I'm a good friend. Wild. Incredible answer. I couldn't have even anticipated that. Really good.
Uh, all right, 2 more cards and then we'll read the deranged snack combo.
I'm so excited. Uh, 7 of Spades.
7 of Spades. It's a good one. You read your own DMs. Do I read my own DMs?
Yeah. Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah, I do.
Um, you go into the extra mailboxes? You go in the second and the third one? See what, what the action's like?
Like the verified—
but you do, you read it? You don't— the team's not— it's not outsourced to the team? Yeah, no, I answer my DMs.
Yeah, yeah, digital native.
Yeah, yeah, I was born in 2003, like I know what's up. Yeah.
Do you find it to be overwhelming that people have that direct— especially, you know, so much going on, people have direct access to you? Like, do you wish to— do you like ever brick your phone? Do you ever like put put it under the couch and be like, not for 2 hours.
Yeah, I delete Instagram and TikTok off of my phone all the time. Oh yeah, I'm like never on Twitter or like Reddit or any of that stuff. That's scary. Sure. But, um, I just delete it all the time. But it's hard. It really is tough. The social media addiction, it really is real. And it like fragments my days and fragments my attention span. And like, it's really not good.
Yeah, only thing I'm addicted to.
Pull one more card. Yay! Okay. Finale. Uh, okay, 10 of Clovers. All right, this—
is that a poker hand?
Is that like— not quite, right?
Okay, this is a good one. This also, it's in between, uh, serious and, uh, and light. When's the last time something did not go your way career-wise, and how did you cope with it? Oh yeah, wow.
I don't like talking about when things don't go well. I like just glossing over and hoping that no one notices.
You can talk about the cope first.
You know, I've made so many mistakes or things I look back and I'm like, oh God, that was so not me, or like whatever. But I really do think, and I'm not even like having a cop-out answer, I, I think that when you look back at any artist's career, I think like the cream really rises to the top, you know what I mean? Like, you don't— all of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things or that are like not great or whatever, saying a bad note or whatever. I I think pound for pound, I'm like proud of my work. And so I think at the end of the day, that's, that's hopefully what people will remember. It's funny.
It's funny you say that because sometimes I feel like when I get flack for being a critic and they're like, how could you say a negative thing about blank? And I say to them, I'm like, who's your favorite artist? And they'll say whoever it is. And I'm like, every song they've ever made is perfect? Yeah, no, true. Every song you liked as a 10-year-old you still love? No, right? You have all these like touch points. Like, we're all critics. Everybody views the world that way. And so yeah, I think that's the right way to think about this kind of thing. It's like—
And I think, like, my mistakes of the past have, like, led me to where I am now. And, like, nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like, ooh, that felt really bad. You know what I mean? Like, that really informs everything you do after that. And so I'm like, I'm happy to have made mistakes and, like, done things that are maybe cringe or made a song that wasn't that good. Like, it happens and it's all part of a cool life.
And you're less self-conscious about that stuff. Now than you might have been, you know, Sour era.
Yeah, I think also, I mean, my last two records, I was like— I made them when I was like 17 and 19. So I'm like, no, it's like I did the best with what I could at the time and like with the people that I had around me at the time. And, and so yeah, I, I don't know, I, I used to beat myself up over stuff a lot. Like I used to be really, really harsh. And like something I think shifted in me a little bit where I'm like, how awesome that I get to make music and and like feel connected to other people and make music videos that I think are cool and like talk about things that are important to me. Like, that's awesome. Like, I think coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it. Because it's like, yeah, it's awesome. Pop music is awesome.
It's a true, genuine gift that animates our lives.
But on that note, like one thing I've always appreciated about you is that you've been so forthcoming coming about your influences and people who are your heroes and what, what you're trying to live up to. And not all artists are like that. Some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence, and I think you've remained open-hearted about that, but it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers or people trying to call you out for borrowing or whatever it is, borrowing a little too much. How have you pushed through that, those what I assume were pretty hard times in your creative vision being called into question? And how do you remain open with what it is that inspires you when stuff like that has happened?
Yeah, I think it's a really hard time, like, just personally. But, um, I don't know, I, I'm a fangirl. I love music. And like, no Nobody can take that away. That sounds so cheesy, but I love music and I feel so lucky that I get to do what I do. And I love so many songs. And I've grown up being surrounded with awesome music and awesome bands. And I truly just do feel so lucky. And I love writing songs. And that's just— I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it and everyone thought I was bad. I would still be writing songs because it's is what I, like, love to do.
But I like that you call yourself a fangirl because I feel like some artists, especially at your level, are ashamed to identify themselves that way.
You gotta be a fan. What's— it's so boring not be a fan of music. There's so much good music to be a fan of. Yeah.
And it's like, but you weave it into your songwriting, probably, you know, just like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs a proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person. Yeah. I mean, I think to point, like, I, I do think people wonder those things that were tough for you early in your career, did that leave a frost between you and other songwriters? Is there a frost between you and Taylor? Like, is that something that hovers over your mind? Is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing internet detective work? How do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial, the initial kind of like ruptures?
Um, I don't know. I think I tried to not let it, like, get to me or upset me. I think I just try to keep it trucking. I think there's no— it was so long ago. I think there's no use in, like, harping on it. Um, and, um, yeah, I, I just try to make songs that I love and try to be kind and good to other people and supportive of other people. And I've always, like, tried to be like And at the end of the day, I think that's, that's all you can do.
And being supportive is like, again, you know, I was looking at the opening act list for your tour and I was just like, this is like a very wide range of styles of artists, but also it's like you're identifying people who you want to take under your wing a little bit, maybe. Yeah, sort of safe to say.
Yeah. I mean, I'm just like huge fans of all the people that are opening for me. I'd like— and, and friends too. And, um, so So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could sit here and be like, yeah, give them advice and blah, blah, blah. But I feel like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants and all just like taking what comes when it comes. And yeah, yeah. I don't know. People always would ask me that. It's like, are you giving Chapel advice? And I'm like, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, like she's giving me advice. Like, it's like we're all just like figuring it out as it comes.
We're all sitting in the chat being like, have you done this? How did this happen?
But it's cool that you've done that. I mean, to the fangirl thing, it's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards. You've taken the Breeders out on the road. You know, you've put on your heroes and given them an entryway to a new audience, and you've done it with up-and-coming acts. So I feel like that's been an important thing for you.
Yeah, I mean, it's not calculated, like, "Oh, God, this is gonna look cool," or something like that. I just, like, love all those bands and love all those artists, and I'm, like, so stoked that I get to be around them and hear them play. The Breeders thing definitely felt radical.
I remember just when that announcement came out, out. I was just like, why don't more people do this? It's like such an obvious idea. Yeah, in terms of like, show your lineage. Yeah, exactly. You're presenting also, especially with you with such a, like, a young and open-eared fan base, like what you're saying to them is like, hey, if you like me, there's actually a whole— yeah, there's a whole universe behind me.
For sure. That's—
and a lot of people don't do that because I think people are anxious. I truly think people are anxious that like— that's what I was getting at about hiding their influence. Yeah, that they're gonna show too show something to a fan and they're going to be like, oh, actually, I like—
it's not— I like that better. Yeah.
And that's why, you know, that people have very young artists opening for them. I mean, there's a bunch of business reasons, of course, as well, but like the idea that you, as an established performer, like, what I would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me, and that actually makes the whole show kind of an Olivia show, because you're like, this is Olivia, this is what made me, this is what made me And then you get to listen to that, and then you get to listen to me, and you get to actually draw the lines. And I think that's— more people should do that. Totally. Genuinely a smart and underutilized move. Thanks. No, for real. Snack time. This is— I, I—
are we all eating this? Oh yeah, we have to.
We are all eating this. Every episode of PopCast ends with a snack. Olivia Rodrigo walked over to our snack table and picked these Herr's Longhots, uh, sharp provolone. This is a Philly classic, got from Wawa last weekend. And then this leftover dip that I brought to our Super Bowl hang.
I'm sorry, wait, is that expired?
This is shelf stable.
Should it be in the fridge?
Should it be? Okay, I was like, it was salted.
It came from the shelf. It came from the shelf.
Can you just look into it before you subject our guests to eating this?
Food poisoning.
I know, I just like, I have to like take a stand.
I have to take a stand. It's expired.
Can you smell it? Like, um, it's expired.
We don't have to eat it. Actually, it's expired. Oh shit. I'm sure it's fine.
I don't think this really goes bad. I don't believe in expiration dates, but I will not make you eat this.
I can't say I've ever had like dip on the shelf before.
Oh, see, I love a French onion dip in a can on the shelf. No refrigeration. That's like one of the greatest things, you know, to me. You would think so. They figured it out. Look, I don't ask questions.
I'm not going to make you eat this.
This is Doritos Cool Ranch jalapeño flavored dip. It smells, it smells like it should, in my opinion.
Yeah, it smells like Taco Bell. Smells like Taco Bell.
Oh my God, it doesn't smell bad, but I'm not going to make you— I'm not going to make you eat it. I'm not going to make either of you eat it. I might try it, and if I end up in the hospital, you guys will send me a text.
Like, this is— this should— we should have—
you're going to have hives tomorrow. We didn't purchase this.
Anyone would ever pick it. It was mostly there a distraction, but you're a sicko.
Yeah, this is absolutely nuts that out of everything on the— I've got Korean snacks, Japanese snacks, British snacks, German snacks, and you—
this is the Flavor Life Philly Crunch Off Champion flavor, Long Hots and sharp provolone. Wow. Shout out Chris Ryan.
Yeah, Philly King. Shout out Zach Baron, Philly King, Carrie Baton, Carrie Baton, Nick Sylvester. We got a lot, we got a lot of Philly in our lives.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel Embiid, really excited. You did your best.
Thank you for what you did to the Celtics. Mike Schmidt.
Oh, that's, that's a great smell. That is a great smell. That's awesome.
It's unlike anything I've ever tasted, to be honest. It almost tastes like a peanut, like a peanut shell. Mhm. Oh wow.
Mhm. Oh, it's tart. It's tart. Mhm. Interesting.
A lot of, lot of depth of flavor, and the spice comes all the way at the end.
This would be really good with a sub sandwich though. I understand.
Wow, wow. Cheesesteak and some of these Long Hots in sharp provolone flavor.
Cheesesteak, sprinkle them up, sprinkle them in the cheesesteak.
Okay, I love these. I still understand.
But this is cheese and hot pepper flavor chip is straight out of my brain.
Gotta make it happen.
You want some more?
Oh yeah, I do.
Yeah, go in. I do. Really good. Too Spicy for you, John?
No, it's actually quite right. Are you anti-spice?
Yeah, I, I have a very tender stomach, regrettably. Um, it's hitting in just the right way, like it's just the right amount of like pepper or whatever it is right at the back.
It's fine, guys. I've had such a good time with you.
Oh no. Oh my God, I'll miss you.
I'm gonna visit you in the hospital. I'll miss you. I'm gonna try this dip.
I'm gonna try this dip. Next episode of podcast is bedside at the hospital.
Is it good? Dog, you're, you're wild.
It's fresh. You're actually wild. It's fresh. That has been here for 4 months.
The entirety of podcast that's sat there.
I'm gonna live.
Do you have anything that you want to say to Joe before he goes?
Parting words.
Uh, let's rank these chips. What do you got out of 10?
I'm coming back for more.
Does that say anything?
I feel like you're mixed in the, in the facial reaction, but I'm just curious.
I can't decide if I like it or not. I think that's why I keep coming back. It's moving in a lot of directions at once. I don't know how to place it. It's almost like salad dressing tasting. It's spicy.
Right, but it's in sort of like in sequence. You're like, it's kind of like mealy and then it's like, oh, it's unctuous. And then you're like, oh, it's sharp.
And then it kind of goes a lot of places. I love a Herr's chip in general though. I feel like the Herr's ridges are really strong. I've shouted out, I think one of my favorite chips all time are the Herr's ketchup.
Better than Ruffle?
Ooh. Ketchup flavor is extremely good. Hard to find. But this is, I don't know. You go first. I give it a hard 6.
Wow, okay. But it's like a 6— like, is it a good 6, like 6 trending upwards, or 6 kind of like I'm just trying to be nice? No, like solid, solid, just living right there. Okay, yeah, 6. Um, I'm gonna say it's an 8. Wow. And I'm gonna say it's— the only thing that's not working for me is, and I will say this is a Hershey's chip and maybe even a Lay's chip problem, to me the, the kind of when you crunch it, the immediate mealiness of the potato, you you feel it's like it has a thinness to it. It's not quite a full crunch. You like it kind of well cooked? Yeah, I want something where I'm really like not fighting it, but there's a heft to it. And I feel like the hers, like, they dissipate extremely quickly once you start chewing them, and then all of a sudden you're just left with like a layer of spice. And so that's the only part that's not working, but it is a— it was an adventurous ride. It was. It it really was like zigzag, left, right, up, down. Like, it's a cool— it's a cool chip.
I think— shout out food science.
I think I'm a 7.5. Okay. I wish it was spicier, and I wish I had a sandwich.
I wish I had a sandwich. If it was a sandwich, it'd be a 9.
It's a great side.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not— it's so low.
Yeah, for sure. Um, Olivia Rodrigo, first of all, Olivia, thank you for being here.
Thank you guys for having me. Thank you for being on PopCast.
What a blessing. Happy to have you here.
Thank you so much for For months, years even, Jon has been saying, we'll see you next week. This time I mean it.
Every episode of podcast is at nytimes.com/podcast. Like and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us on TikTok and Instagram. Follow us to the Olivia Rodrigo tour. We'll be back next week. I'm Gilbert Cruz. This week on the Book Review Podcast, our monthly book club meets to talk about Ben Lerner's new novel, Transcriptions. It's really brilliant. Yeah. His 2014 book made the Times' Best 100 Books of the 2014 year. 21st Century List. So whenever Ben Lerner puts out something new, it's an event and it's something that needs to be discussed. We could talk about this book all day. It's kind of— listen to the book review wherever you get your podcasts.
Olivia Rodrigo sat down with Joe and Jon for her first in-depth conversation about her new album, “you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love,” out June 12. She discussed the many ways her creative process intersects with the extracurricular noise of pop superstardom, whether its managing relationship drama; being targeted for the way she dresses, accusations of pilfering songwriting gestures from Taylor Swift, her onetime idol, or her willingness to speak up about political and social causes in a way many of her peers won’t.
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