Transcript of Inside the Operation to Take Down Mexico’s Biggest Drug Lord New

From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kintrelef. This is The Daily. When the Mexican military captured and killed the country's top drug lord, it revealed how much President Trump's growing pressure is forcing the country to take on the cartels. Today, my colleagues Maria Abiy Habib and Jack Nikas on the to take down that drug lord, El Mencho, and whether Mexico has what it takes to win a war on some of the most powerful criminals in the world. It's Thursday, February 26th. Maria, Jack. Wonderful to have you both on the show. Three three Mexico City Bureau chiefs.

I'm sitting in your old office, Natalie.

Jack, current. Maria, former. Natalie, former. We all were in Latin America as correspondence together. Maria, you and I both covered the cartels at the same time and did some intense reporting on that.

To put it lightly.

We have you here because the news that Mexico had taken out El Mencho, the head of the Jalisco cartel, was massive. We've learned in the days since that the Trump administration played a big part in that. So level set for us. Why is the takedown of this one cartel leader such a big deal?

Well, El Mencho was arguably the single biggest criminal in the world. He was arguably the most wanted man in the world. He led the biggest cartel in Mexico. He led the biggest cartel, perhaps in the world. I know we tend to avoid using superlatives, but it's hard to overstate the importance and significance of this figure in the criminal world. It's a really big deal that the Mexican government went after him because he had been on the run for two decades. He has ties to government figures around the Mexican government. This is four months just before the World Cup arrives, just a few hours from where he was found. This is a major move that could open a new chapter of violence in Mexico.

Yeah. I also think that at this point, this is a huge test for the Mexican government. They have never been tested like this. The last time they tried to really take on a domestic threat like this was about 15 years ago, but that was a different cartel, which was not nearly as big, did not nearly have the geographical reach or the penchant for brutality that Jalisco cartel has. We're going to be seeing Mexico's security forces tested in a way that we've never seen before. Let's see what happens.

Okay, let's talk about El Mencho, this cartel leader. I think for a lot of listeners, he wasn't a household name. Lay out for me how El Mencho got to be the most wanted man in the world.

Well, he was born into poverty in the state of Michoacan, which is in the West. He has five brothers. He grew up growing avocados, which is one of the livelihoods of Michoacan. A lot of the avocados Americans make guacamole from come from that state. He dropped out of primary school, I think about fifth grade, to work in the fields. Then by the time he was a teenager, he started to guard marijuana plantations, apparently. Then he decided that he wanted to immigrate to California, so he did so in the 1980s. Apparently, he said he wanted a better life. He moves up to San Francisco, the Bay Area, and he ends up falling back into crime. He gets arrested by the police up there. He's about 20 at this point, and he ends up getting deported. But like the savant that he is, he decides that he's going to start changing names, and he starts crisscrossing the US-Mexico border. Every time he's arrested, he gets thrown back into Mexico. He comes back. By 1992, he's arrested one last time, at this point in Sacramento, California. He's arrested because he and brother are carrying out a heroin deal.

He spends three years in prison. At this point, he's deported again to Mexico, and he's in his 30s, and he joins the local police.

Wow.

Yes.

Former drug dealer becomes a police officer. Kind of a wild career switch.

You know, it happens more than you would think in Mexico because we have to remember that Mexico has corruption problems, specifically within the police.

Okay, so he becomes a police officer in a police force that is notoriously corrupt. What happens?

Well, so he realizes that, well, everybody else is on the take, and I'd be a sucker not to be on the take. So he switches over and he joins the Millennial Cartel, which at this point is very, very strong in the country Southwest. And strategically, he realizes the way to really rise up the ranks of this cartel is to marry one of the leader's daughters. So it's a Romeo and Juliet story, but filled with heroine and meth and everything in between.

Sure. A classic. Yeah.

So he rises through the ranks. Then in 2008 and 2009, government security forces end up arresting or killing a bunch of leaders from the Millennial cartel.

This is in the midst of the last time the Mexican government did a really serious to dismantle the cartels, a war on these cartels.

Exactly. It sets off this extremely bloody, brutal leadership fight for who becomes the head honcho of Millennial Cartel. And through sheer brute force and his ability to really embrace some of the most disgusting, gruesome, brutal acts, who rises and ends up being on top, well, it's El Mencho. And he spins off his forces to form an independent cartel, which is the Jalisco New Generation Cartel. Emphasis on generation, because this is a long-term project. He's in it for the long haul.

What is the defining feature of this new group he's leading, the Jalisco Cartel?

It's his ability to or want and desire to really just be as brutal as absolutely possible. For instance, there were reports that his new recruits, he really needed these people to show that they would be as compliant as foot soldiers as they possibly could be, and that they were also willing to implement the levels of violence that he himself favored. For instance, there were reports of cannibalism. You're a recruit, and guess what? You've got to eat somebody, somebody who had betrayed the cartel.

So Elmencho becomes a pioneer in this much more aggressive, violent way of doing business. When I was in Mexico, it was also clear that part of his signature was also diversifying the purpose of that violence. He pursued a broad range of business opportunities that went beyond just drugs.

Oh, for sure. He wants the Jalisco cartel to have a finger in every pie. Avocados, obviously, something he knows very well from his days picking them when he was a kid. Guess what? If you're an avocado grower, you have to either pick avocados for his cartel or you have to give a piece of whatever you harvest that year to him. Then he expands his empire, and it becomes more of a conglomerate. He's not just doing drugs. He's in the hotel industry. They start bilking senior citizens from the United States to Canada from their time shares. Also, they're now involved in illegal gold mining throughout South America, which is laying ravage to rainforests across that continent.

I think one visual way to see the different approach of the Jalisco Cartel is the map of Mexico, particularly when it's overlaid with the different cartels control. What you see is the Jalisco Cartel really has presence across the country, and it really has conquered almost every state it has presence in. There There is widespread corruption within the states and local governments across their region to make sure that Jalisco can do what it wants without any questions.

Just talk about that, the extent of the corruption and what this group can do. It becomes incredibly powerful and rich. That gives them resources to do this work.

It gives them resources. It's natural for us to make the analogy that these guys are a Fortune 500 company with a diverse set of businesses, no question. They are also, in a way, a state actor. They have their tentacles in the state governments and in the local governments across the country, and that allows them to really operate unbridled. It even means that when a hurricane hits, sometimes the Jalisco cartel are the ones providing aid because they want to generate some goodwill with constituents. I think it's really difficult to understand the importance of the cartels to the economy, but also to the society. They are a fact of daily life in Mexico.

Okay, given what you've both laid out about the steady and menacing rise of this group and their power across Mexico, I think a lot of people are going to be wondering at this point, what was the government doing this whole time that this was happening? Were they going after the Jalisco cartel in El Mencho? What was their response?

Well, a lot of Mexicans are wondering that as well. This certainly was a rise that wasn't just a single year. This is something that played out over 15 or more years. The reality is El Mencho was very elusive. He basically, according to a senior government official I just spoke to, he really basically just used human messengers. He was not on the phone. He did not use radio. He was extremely disciplined. As a result, that allowed him to elude capture for so long. But it wasn't like they didn't almost catch him a few times. In 2012, they did go after him, but his followers, his gunman basically robbed a bunch of cars, and they set them on fire and set up these roadblocks across the city, and that allowed Elmencho to escape. In 2015, they also nearly caught Elmencho, but his gunman literally shot down a Mexican military helicopter, killing three soldiers, and he got away then as well. But over the past decade, there really haven't been many close calls. I think that raises the question of why not? I think that is in part because of incompetence by the Mexican authorities, but it is also in part because of complicity.

As we noted, this cartel had tentacles in governments across the nation, and that complicates that effort when you've got policemen and politicians tipping them off.

Yeah, it also should be said that a lot of these attempts to kill Almencho were with the United States. Killer capture, really. Several American law enforcement had said to me and others on our team that, A, it was very difficult to catch him because he was just that good. Then B, there was also this complicity with the Mexican government to an extent, where sometimes they were just tipped off and he was able to scourry away.

It's both difficult for the Mexican government to fend off the pull of this multibillion-dollar corporation, which is the Jalisco Cartel, and at the same time, there's been a hesitance or reluctance to go at them head-on because it means going up against a whole system that perpetuates their power.

Right. I think that's precisely why the cartels have become such an intractable problem for Mexico.

It's what makes it even more shocking that the Mexican government was able to go up against El Mencho this time and actually get him. Jack, walk me through how that operation operation went down.

What we know is that on Sunday morning, Mexican Special Forces and the Mexican Army raided a rental home in a wooded, picturesque ranch town about 2 hours south of Guadalajara, in Jalisco, and they were backed by six military helicopters, and they got into a very intense firefight with El Mencho and his men. Mencho slipped out the back and tried to escape with at least two bodyguards. Eventually, Mexican forces then found him hiding in the brush. They continued to engage in crossfire with Mencho and his bodyguards. They shot Mencho and his bodyguards. They were mortally wounded. They then put El Mencho and his two other bodyguards on a helicopter for air transport to a hospital, and on the way, we are told they died. That was it. It was certainly bloody. It was certainly violent. But government has actually told me that it was better than they expected.

Jack, what do we know about the intelligence that led the operation to be successful in this case?

Well, as we noted, Elmencho was an incredibly elusive figure because he was incredibly disciplined. However, it appears that he got a little sloppy. The Mexican government says that they identified a close associate of a woman who was one of Elmencho's lovers. They watched this man drop this woman off at the home where Elmencho was staying. At that point, they were somehow able to confirm that Elmencho was home.

Amazing. They got him by following his girlfriend.

Yes, it came down to his lover. But it also appears that there was important information coming from the CIA. There was no American boots on the ground. This was a Mexican law enforcement operation, but some of the intelligence that fed it came from the United States.

Got it. Once El Mencho's death is confirmed, we saw the country erupt in flames as the cartel is responding on the streets. Cartel members, loyal to El Mencho, we understand, were lighting things on fire, blocking roads. We heard of American tourists sheltering in place in their hotels. Just describe what we were seeing in Mexico.

This was really a day of mayhem. Massive plumes of smoke darkened the skies of seaside resort towns and tourist hotspots, but locals are the most threatened. It was one of the biggest shows of force and violence by a cartel in recent Mexican history. We were actually terrified, and we saw the people running down the streets, running from the flames and stuff and the fire.

It actually showed the breadth of the organization that Elmencho had built because it wasn't just in Jalisco, but it was from Coast to Coast.

In at least 20 states across the nation, there was cars on fire, blocked roads, banks on fire, supermarkets on fire, and also shootings. There was at least 25 members of the National Guard who were killed as part of some of this mayhem on Sunday. That was, I think, an explosion of rage and also power from this Jalisco cartel. But it also was a short burst of violence. After Sunday, things really have calmed down. By midweek, the Mexican government says, All roads are clear, all the fires are put out, and there really are no shelter in place orders to speak of. So Mexico is back to normal.

Right. Now the question seems to be, what happens next? Does the government decide to keep pushing on an offensive against the Jalisco cartel, given the stakes and the pressure the government is under from the United States, from the Trump administration?

That's exactly the question, because while things are back to normal, the country is still very much on edge because Trump is still pressuring the Mexican government to do more, and you just suddenly have a beheaded cartel that may now be fighting for territory and power.

We'll be right back. Maria and Jack, I think one of the biggest questions hanging over all this is just given how long this cartel's power has been steadily expanding and how well known the problem of it has been, why did Why did the Mexican government do this at this moment? Why now?

For one, the Mexican authorities had a piece of very actionable intelligence, and so an opportunity was created and they took advantage of it. But this also comes amid the backdrop of a very aggressive offensive against the cartels by President Sheinbaum. She basically has made clear that she wants to take a very different tact from her predecessor to go after the cartels. Then there also is one other major difference, and that is Donald J. Trump. What we have in Mexico right now is a sustained pressure campaign from the White House to do more against the cartels. He does not want any more of the same excuses. He is saying the Mexican government must solve its cartel problems or the US military will do it. That has meant repeated in public threats of a unilateral US military strike against the cartels, Which President Sheinbaum has said is a red line that cannot be crossed. Instead, what we're seeing is the Mexican government doing everything it can to show it can handle the problem itself.

Right. Just say how the threat of the US military coming in and doing a strike in Mexico is perceived in the country and by the government, specifically?

Well, you have to remember that California used to be Mexico. The history between these two countries has not always been so rosy. There is not a lot of eagerness for the US military to come in with Hellfire missiles and basically try to attack the cartels that way because A, there's concerns about sovereignty, and B, there's concerns about collateral damage and the number of civilians that can be killed. Therefore, there is a real unease with what Trump is threatening, and there also is a real commitment by the Mexican government now to try to show that it can handle the problem itself.

It should be said, this isn't just an idol threat that Trump is making at this point. This is a president who has literally just gone into Venezuela and ousted the president by force with a military operation. It feels like what the Mexican government is dealing with at this point isn't just rhetoric. It's actually a real possibility.

Oh, yes. Apparently, from somebody I speak to who's in touch with her inner circle, it's what keeps President Scheinbaum up at night. She that this could very well be the end of her popular support. Her party, the Modena Party, is filled with sharks. If there is some US unilateral action, that could very well spell the end of her power within that party.

We have this picture of a Mexican President, Claudia Sheimbam, who's under immense pressure to take action. But at the same time, she is someone who, as you've said, has already seemed to be more willing to confront the cartels than other Mexican leaders. I wonder whether it's possible that the pressure from Trump actually may, in a sense, be giving her political cover to do what she may want to do anyway. Maybe she would have faced some resistance from all these politicians who are in bed with the cartels. Now she can point to Trump and say, Look, I have no choice.

That This is exactly the theory we're hearing from a lot of folks across Mexico who study this, that basically, Shane Balm wanted to go after the cartels, but going after the cartels in Mexico with the political structure that exists, with the corruption that exists within the Mexican government from the federal to the local level, it's very difficult. But when you have the President of the United States saying, You better do this or we will invade, that changes the calculus. She can go back to her political party and say, I don't have any choice. I'm going after El Mencho. Officials aren't saying outright that this is giving them political cover. Even off the record, they are saying that they're doing this because it's good for Mexico. But when those conversations do go deeper and when you speak to more people, there is really an acknowledgement that the Trump effect is real.

Jack, you said that the violence in response to El Mencho's killing died down quite quickly. I want to ask about that because that was actually one of the most surprising things to me, that the the violent response from the cartel didn't last longer. I wonder if you think it's possible that the cartel moderated their response to their leader's death because they worried that making the country look too out of control might give Donald Trump an excuse to intervene, which would be devastating for them.

Yes. It was surprising that the violence died down that quickly, in large part because we haven't seen it die down like that in other instances of the top leaders getting captured or killed. I think your theory is certainly a valid one because we have already made clear here that President Shanebaum is worried about a strike from Donald Trump Let's be clear, the narcos are also worried. Our colleague Paulina Villegas and I just got back from Sina Loher. We met with multiple narcos, and they were very worried. They gave the same reason that the government officials are giving, which is the capture of Maduro changed the game for us. They now are worried themselves that they may be on the receiving end of a Hellfire missile. That has to be changing the calculus of the criminal organizations in Mexico about how they go about their business, how they carry out revenge like this, and how they make a scene, because in some ways, they're trying to run a business. When you're trying to run a business, you need to keep your head down and sell your drugs.

Given that, let's talk about what this capture means for the cartel that El Mencho ran moving forward. What's the upshot for this multibillion dollar organization? How big of a blow is this for them?

Well, it depends on whether or not The commanders who were under El Menchó can agree amongst themselves a clear, clean path to succession. Oftentimes, the cleanest form of succession is within the family, but Menchó didn't have a lot of kin who could take over. He has 4-5 commanders who could be his successors. If they're smart, they'll go ahead and name a successor and agree, but we rarely see that happen when the head of a cartel is killed. If the cartel cannibalizes itself from within because of this internal leadership, then we could see it fracture. When it fractures, that creates mini wars all over Mexico.

Right. That battle over succession could play out across the country for months, if not years. I think the question now is, how far is the Mexican government willing to take a war on the cartels?

Yeah. I think But American diplomats who have worked here will say, When the Mexican government wants to go after these cartels and other criminal organizations, they can do it. They are capable. They know how to do it. So Mexicans are waiting to see, is this to be a more sustained battle to dislodge the cartels from all these different corners of Mexico and reassert government authority here or not? But it is a day-to-day battle. It is not a one-year project. It is a 10-year project, maybe more.

I want to talk about that 10-year project, about what it would actually take to dismantle these groups. Because you've both said, Elmencho, for example, has plenty of people waiting in the wings to succeed him. We have seen history shows that taking out the boss of a cartel does not automatically eliminate the entire organization underneath him. When I was in Sinaloa, I talked to cartel leaders who said, If you take me out, there's 10 more guys waiting to take my place. What is the recipe for long-term success here for actually, as you said, Maria, dislodging these groups from the country?

I think that what we haven't seen from the Mexican government is addressing the corruption. The reality is the only way for this criminal group to get this powerful and this big is through the complicity of officials across the nation. We haven't seen that level of political will yet from President Scheinbaum and her party to go after the officials who really actually have already been pointed to as being corrupt. I mean, one of the most powerful senators in Mexico has been directly linked to a cartel. The former head of the Navy has been linked to a massive corruption scheme. You can go down the list. There are many other politicians. This is actually what we hear the US officials really asking for is that is when they will feel there is a sign of real progress is when the Mexican government starts to go after the corrupt politicians that have enabled this to go on this long.

Given that this is such an intractable problem, I'm just curious if we know at what point President Trump is going to be satisfied with the progress that Mexico is making. Do we know if this move to take out El Mencho might have appeased Trump and bought the Mexican government some time?

I think Trump's goalposts are infinite. The strongest evidence of that is that less than 24 hours after the Mexican government killed Elmencho, probably the single biggest achievement that the government has had in the cartel war in years, Trump posted online, Mexico must step up their efforts on cartel and drugs. That is, I think, a clear sign that the demands aren't going to end. Probably That's the point. And possibly that's also what is necessary because there are signs that Trump's pressure is creating a dynamic in Mexico that really hasn't existed before, and perhaps is creating the environment that is necessary to finally defeat or at least really confront these massive, powerful criminal organizations in a way that the government hasn't. I think that there are Mexicans who, while they don't want a unilateral strike from the US government, do welcome Trump's attention to this matter and pressure on this issue.

You're saying the goalpost moving, that could be seen as a good thing. In one way, it's a bait and switch, but in another Or that's just how progress works.

Well, it could be a good thing, but I think it depends on how far it goes. If Trump is just putting consistent pressure on, and that is enabling and forcing the Mexican government to do what it needs to do to take control of the cartels. I think many Mexicans agree that is a great thing. However, if Trump ultimately says, You didn't do what I want, and now I'm going to bomb you, well, I think that's a whole another story because that is going to destabilize the government, inflame the situation, and throw us into the unknown.

Well, Jack, Maria, thank you both so much.

Thank you, Natalie. We miss you here in Mexico.

Thanks so much for having us.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. The files released by the Justice Department from its investigations into Jeffrey Epstein did not include key materials related to a woman who made an accusation against President Trump, according to a review by the New York Times. Those missing materials are FBI memos summarizing the interviews that the bureau did in connection with claims made in 2019 by the woman who said she'd been sexually was officially assaulted by Trump and Epstein decades earlier when she was a minor. An index that was publicly released indicates that the FBI did four interviews related to her claims and wrote summaries about each of them. Only one of the summaries was released, though. Officials haven't said why these files weren't released, but the Justice Department has told the Times that any withheld files were either privileged or duplicates, and that files may be withheld if their part of an ongoing federal investigation. Trump has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. And Dr. Casey Means, the wellness Maha influencer who's President Trump's nominee to be surgeon general, testified before the Senate at her confirmation hearing on Wednesday. If confirmed, she would carry the title of the Nation's Doctor, even though she doesn't have an active medical license, and she's a vocal critic of the medical establishment.

Would you encourage other mothers to have their children vaccinated against measles with the MMR vaccine? During the hearing, Dr. Means said that vaccines save lives, but she refused to say whether she would urge parents to vaccinate their children against the measles.

I'm supportive of a vaccination.

Every individual needs to talk to their doctor before putting a medication in their body. In one heated back and forth, Dr. Means had a hard time answering a question from Senator Tim Caine of Virginia about whether the flu vaccine was effective.

Do you believe that there's no evidence that the flu vaccine has efficacy in reducing serious injury or hospitalization?

I... This is an This is an easy one, doctor. This is an easy one. The Republican-controlled Senate Health Committee seem poised to move Dr. Meen's nomination to the Senate floor. Today's episode It was produced by Anna Foley and Kaitlyn O'Keefe. It was edited by M. J. Davis Lynn with help from Paige Cawet. Contains music by Alisha Baetup, Dan Powell, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittrowaf. See you tomorrow.