Transcript of Chris Rock Has Been Thinking About Forgiveness

We live in a world where either you order shit or you deliver shit. And you really don't want to deliver shit.

I'm David Marchese, and today I'm interviewing Chris Rock.

Selling out arenas, it's like sex, I always say. Unless you played that arena twice, it didn't happen.

His comedy specials in the '90s and 2000s not only made him a household name, they were touchstone cultural events. full of brilliant and profane commentary on gender.

Women get to have platonic friends.

Race.

If you Black, America's like the uncle that paid your way through college but molested you.

And the biggest news stories of the day.

What the fuck did Clinton do? They was charging him with shit I ain't even know was crime.

More recently, Rock has reflected on his own life in his work, including his 2016 divorce and the unbelievable moment when Will Smith slapped him live on stage at the Oscars.

Will Smith played Muhammad Ali. I'm gonna play Ali in a movie! You think I auditioned for that part?

Beyond stand-up, Rock has built a successful Hollywood career acting and directing feature films, including 2014's critically acclaimed Top Five. Now Rock is back with the movie Misty Green, which he both wrote and directed, about a struggling actress played by Rosalind Elizar, who gives a star-making performance.

Hello! I would like to finish my audition if it isn't too much trouble. All right? I wanted to do a movie about Hollywood. I wanted to do a movie about the expiration dates we all have.

Here's my conversation with Chris Rock. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore The Times for free without paywalls during your first month in The New York Times app. Just download the app, and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. Ready to go? Should we go? Yeah. Chris, thank you very much.

What do you got for— what do you got for me, man? What do you want?

So I want to start with a question about the new movie, Misty Green.

About the new movie, Misty Green.

Misty Green, which, you know, to me, the movie, it's thematically very rich. There's a lot going on. But one of the themes for me was really status. You know, who has it, who loses it when it comes to success, money, relationships. And I wanted to know, when do you feel insecure about your status?

When do I, I mean, I've been doing a lot of therapy the last few years, like post-COVID. And a lot of it's about not feeling insecure. A lot of it is about you are enough. You are enough, sir. But, you know, I don't ever really feel insecure about my status per se. Occasionally I'll meet people that are obviously working harder than me and that'll make me feel insecure. You know, Adam Sandler, Rick Rubin, you're like, what? What are you doing? How many things are you doing right now? So that can make me a little insecure. Some people are better with their kids than me. I think I'm a good dad.

You kept 'em off the pole.

I've kept 'em off the pole, but they're on OnlyFans now. Sometimes you see a loving relationship and you get insecure. You ever been single and you see a homeless couple and you're like, they got it.

One thing that was interesting to me about the movie was that it's a movie that both makes Hollywood feel very appealing, because of the talent that you see and the love that people have for doing what they do, but also makes Hollywood seem awful. Like truly, truly racist, sexist, sort of chips away at your soul constantly. You know what I'm talking about, right? And has your experience of Hollywood sort of inhabited both those spaces where on the one hand, you obviously have had an incredible career. On the other hand, it seems like Very hard not to go through that career unscathed.

I mean, you're not going to get a how bad Hollywood is soliloquy from me. I always say every generation laughs at their children's racism. So my kids are like, this is racist. I'm like, And what I would call racist, my mother would laugh at. You know what I mean? Are there bad parts about Hollywood? Yes. But it's still better than a normal job by a lot. Okay? By a ton, man. I wouldn't change it for anything. I've said before, I used to work at Red Lobster. I used to work at a I used to work at a home for autistic, severely autistic mid-adults. I had the night shift, and you had to make the food. It was kind of like being a big brother because I'm the oldest of 7. And you make the food. Sometimes you have to change a diaper or whatever of a grown kind of man. So what if I can't get a sketch on? So what if somebody's not— doesn't respond to my script. I used to wipe people's asses, dude.

But the question of compromises comes up throughout the film.

There's compromises in everything, man.

Right. So what are compromises that you've had to make in your career?

I mean, honestly, I came up in cable television. I could kind of say what I want. Life is catching up to jail! Shit, if you live in an old project, a new jail ain't that bad! You know what I mean? Like, honestly, there's more— I don't know if I could do Bring the Pain today. I'd have to compromise. But in '96, I did pretty much whatever I wanted. So I haven't had to compromise myself as a stand-up. I've been able to make some weird movies. Dude, I made Pootie Tang. You know what I mean? I got my own things that I've directed, and I got side pro— I've been very fortunate. Spike Lee, Eddie Murphy, Denzel, all these great people opened up a door, and I've been able to have a really weird, sometimes bad, But definitely, no one will ever say he didn't try. I did a documentary about hair shows, dude. You know what I mean? So I'm the last guy to complain.

A second ago, you said, I don't know if I'd be able to make Bring the Pain today. And that's kind of a sentiment that I see a lot. People, comedians, or even just artists saying, yeah, I don't know if I'd be able to make whatever it was they made, you know, 30 years ago today. And I wonder, do you really think that's true? Because I look around at comedy and the culture, I'm like, it's pretty coarse.

Okay, I'd be able to make it. Here's the difference.

Yeah.

The difference is, you're right, you know, 2 things can be true. I'd be able to make it. It would be huge. As a matter of fact, you know what? I'll go even further. Bring the Pain would be bigger today.

There you go.

You've put the clock on it. You know why it would be bigger today? 'Cause you wouldn't be able to report on it.

What do you mean?

You wouldn't be able to say it was great. The New York Times wouldn't be able to say it. It wouldn't be on Netflix. It wouldn't be on any normal thing. So it would be like the Shane Gillis thing, which would actually elevate it. You know what I mean? I'm not here to— The New York Times got a weird thing with comedy. Go for it.

Yeah. What's the weird thing?

Not even with comedy. It's just like the Times, the Journal, they ignore the nuance. So they like something really— it's like, okay, this is a manosphere conservative thing, or this is a really kind of wokey-woke thing. And All the people in the middle, they kind of ignore. I remember a couple years ago, I don't know, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, Bill Burr sold out Madison Square Garden.

Yeah.

First night he sold out Madison Square Garden. In the history of Madison Square Garden, it's probably more now, but at that point, I don't know, 8 comedians had sold out Madison Square Garden. And by the way, selling out arenas, it's like, It's like sex, I always say.

How so?

Unless you've done it, unless you played that arena twice, it didn't happen.

Okay?

If you didn't have sex with her twice, to her, it never happened. And that's what playing an arena is, right? Anyway, Bill Burr plays Madison Square Garden. I wake up, The next day, I want to read the review. There's no review. There's no review. Because Bill Burr is this guy that walks a crazy line. Is he conservative? Maybe he's conservative. Wait a minute, he's got a Black wife. Oh, he's sexist. Wait a minute, there's a lot of women here. You guys only cover the extremes. You're not fucking with that middle. So anyway, Bring the Pain, because it would be actually less lauded, would be bigger today.

Because it would have some sort of taboo appeal to it.

It would have a taboo to it. Where before, when I did it, I got all these accolades.

Yeah. But don't you think there's something in comedy that happened, I think since Trump got elected the first time, where It seems like the comedians, a lot of comedians, you know infinitely more about comedy than I do and about the felt.

Oh.

But where comedians feel like they have to subtly or overtly signal what their politics are, like sort of wink to the audience so that the audience kind of knows where to put them, even if the place they're putting them is guy who can see both sides. And I feel like audiences are looking for it now and comedians are giving it to them.

Maybe. Maybe. I mean, I'm— trying to decide if I'm gonna go back out now. I'm just like, do I want to? Do I? You know?

Why wouldn't you?

Do I want to jump in this bed? I don't know. I'm loving directing, actually. I'm actually like, oh, maybe I should do a run of pictures. But I don't know. We used to only talk to the best of the best. We used to only talk to the person singing. We used to not even talk to the producer. Now everybody's got to say something. And some of it's boring. A lot of it's boring.

Can I just ask now a question about Rosalind Elizar and her performance in Misty Green? Really, I knew her work from Slow Horses. That's where I'd seen her before. But kind of an incredible performance. You realize she can sing amazingly.

You've got one night only. One night only, you'll be the only one.

The different emotional levels she's able to bring to the character. But can you talk about what she brought to Misty that wasn't in the script initially?

She just brought a humanity to it. I mean, here's what I say when I'm directing. It's my movie. It's your part. You know what I mean? And It was hers, man. She— you know what? Put it this way. I met Rosalind about a month ago. I never— but for the months we were shooting Misty, there was only Misty. You know what I mean? So she was Misty when she came in on the audition. She was Misty through the whole filming process. She never asked me one question that didn't have to do with character. So, she's— we will work again.

And there's a scene in the film where her character— this is not a spoiler at all, but there's a scene in the film where her character is performing at kind of a nightclub. And she just is an incredible singer also, which is something that you didn't realize up to that point in the movie. And when I saw that, I was thinking about how in the performing arts, The amount of just pure talent that's out there that is not— these people are not necessarily household names. They're just trying to make a living. It's really staggering to think about.

It's a lot of talent. It's a lot of talent.

And do you feel like you understand who makes it and who doesn't? Talent must have so little to do with it ultimately.

It's not that it has so little to do with it. I mean, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, right place, right time. Hey, what kind of friend are you? Which goes a long, long way. Like, even now, if I look over my career, you know, probably half of my gigs are just somebody going, oh, he's cool. You know what I mean? Like, you gotta be a good friend. You have to be considerate. You have to ask people how they're doing. There's all these other parts. I mean, I know myself, and a lot of artists, we're just so fucking self-centered. So, I don't know. To answer your question, yes, there's a lot of talent out there. And a lot of it's just right time, right place. And yeah, some of this has no rhyme or reason. I mean, sometimes you're like on the subway and you see a guy playing the fucking violin like— you know what I mean? Like they should be at the Met or something. You're like, what the fuck?

Who's someone who you worked with or whose work you know that you thought was incredibly talented, but whether because, like maybe Misty, they were self-destructive or they just never got a break?

Oh, I can't say that. I wish I could say— I'd say that off camera. There's a bunch of people, the self-destructive thing. That self-destructive thing is a really sad thing.

Or just someone whose ultimate level of success did not—

The thing about self-destructive too, it's like people don't realize. People go, okay, the year's 365 days, right? And if I want to party, who cares? What I'm trying to say is a self-destructive person is basically a person that makes 6 bad decisions a year. You know what I mean? It seems like a little— you know what I mean? That's 359 days of—

They were doing fine.

Of being fine. But those 6 bad decisions a year will fuck up your whole life.

So How many bad decisions a year do you make? I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, show business, it's like the Olympics. And in the Olympics, the difference between first and last can be less than a second sometimes. Less than a second.

I want to ask something about the movie. Another thematic question about the movie.

Go ahead.

Misty Green in theaters soon.

A24.

Do you think that there were ideas that you had about women or men and women that you had to examine or think through in order to credibly create the character of Misty Greene? And I ask because in a lot of your comedy, you make distinctions between men and women.

Yeah.

But the distinctions I think in my reading, they're coming from the male point of view. And Misty Greene is so much about—

Oh, it's her story.

One woman's story. Was it hard for you, or did it take any excavation to be able to do what you wanted to do with the character?

I mean, well, those stark— saying there's stark differences between men and women is a perfect description device for comedy. It doesn't work in a drama. I'll say this, part of all this therapy and all this stuff, it's developing an empathy and really being able to get inside of another character. Last 4 or 5 years, I'm a way more empathetic person. Misty, it also helps that my daughters are grownups, kind of. So I've experienced— I really watch women around my house, their friends, and my daughters just They don't forgive my sins, but they give me an education that I wouldn't normally have.

I want to go back to directing. Let's go back to directing. You said you're into directing now and like to do more of it. It was, what, 12 years between movies you directed, between Take Five and Mystic Green?

Top Five.

Top Five. I'm sorry.

Top Five. Filmed some of it here. And Mr. Green is too.

What took so long?

What took so long? Life. COVID. I got divorced, which meant I had to make real money. Maybe I had some other scripts that just didn't— the market didn't respond to. Just a lot of stuff. I did other movies, and it's not like I was sitting around for that time. But COVID was like, I don't know, it's like a time to like, okay, what am I doing with my life? Well, and other shit I don't feel like talking about. I had a lot of stuff go on the last 12 years.

Did you come up with answers to the What should I be doing with my life questions that COVID—

I should be directing small movies, character-driven pieces. I can do that. Maybe I'm not in the movie as much as I used to be, so I've been writing a lot more. She working on a book, working on a Book of essays. We'll see where that goes.

But are any of those things that you don't want to talk about? Could we talk about them?

Well, I mean, what do you want to talk about? What do you want to talk about? I mean, I'm a big boy. I can answer stuff coolly or not answer them, whatever. What do you want to know, man?

Is there more to say about the slap than what you said in the last special?

I'm good, man. That was so long ago.

Not that long ago.

I wish everyone well. I wish everyone well. I've moved on with my life.

Do you forgive what happened?

I mean, I'm not going to get into clickbait things. I don't think I'm in beef. I don't— you know what I mean? There's no— I'm done, dude. I'm done.

But I know I keep doing this, but let's keep going. Let's go back to the movie again, because there's thematic things in the movie that I think are interesting to dig into. But it was— I was slightly surprised to hear you say that, you know, you're not— you don't really have anything that bad to say about Hollywood, given the content of the film, which to me was really about, like, on one level, just how hard and hurtful to an artist's soul Hollywood can be. What for you were the main ideas and themes that you were interested in exploring in Misty Green?

I mean, I'm really into expiration dates. I have a lot of friends who are in their 50s or whatever, and there's this thing everybody tells you, you can do art forever. You know what I mean? And that's just not true. And A lot of show business has, like, you gotta reach certain plateaus by a certain time or else you're gonna be in trouble. So yeah, Misty is turning 40 and, mm, it's a kind— there's a little bit of an expiration date happening here. But yeah, I wanted to do a movie about Hollywood. I wanted to do a movie about the expiration dates we all have. I wanted to do a movie about LA, and it is like this tale of two cities. It is sunshine and palm trees, but we're constantly walking over homeless people. You know what I mean? Like, the most liberal people in the world. This place that The fact that Rodeo Drive and Skid Row are in the same city, probably 8, 10 miles apart. In a lot of ways, America's like that. Very rich, very poor. It's like we live in a world where either you order shit or you deliver shit, and you really don't want to deliver shit.

What should our response to that disparity be? When you experience the inequality disparity that you're describing, do you think you should act differently or do something about it?

So the title, the running title of the book I'm writing right now, it's called When the Homeless Know Your Name. Because when the homeless know your name, it's a whole nother Like, you feel that shit, dude.

You mean because you're famous?

'Cause you're famous.

Yeah.

But they know your fucking name, dude. So when somebody asks you for money on the street, they just ask you for money. When they ask me, they say, yo, Chris. So that shit, you know, I don't know what I should do. You know, first of all, who the hell carries cash anymore for the most part, right? You know, you give what you can. You give to this charity, that charity. What you can.

I want to dig into that feeling a little bit more. When the homeless know your name, hey, Chris, what do you do with that feeling? What does it make you feel?

I mean, put it this way. I'm usually up now. I get up around 7:00. I'm out of my— I'm literally getting coffee by about 7:15. I go to my supermarket, get some fruit, right? And inevitably, there's always like a bunch of guys packing, like setting up for the day. And I don't know, you ever see like 12 Years a Slave or any slave movie with a free slave? And the slaves look at the, you know, at Chiwetel, and he's like in the— He's dressed all cool. and he's got his hat, and they're just looking at him like, how the fuck did this happen? We're the same. That's me at the supermarket in the morning. They're looking at me, they're not even looking at me as a famous person. It's like, who's this brother buying mango at fucking 7:25 in the morning? 'Cause if you're in SoHo, if you're in just There's no Black dudes living down there. I don't even know what I'm doing. Am I answering your question?

Yeah, yeah, you've seen behind the veil.

Yeah, it's like, yeah. And they're looking at me, I'm looking at them, 'cause I know I could be that. I know if I don't walk in a comedy club in '84 or '83, I probably have a normal job. I'm not, you know, I probably have a normal job.

Do you think?

I have a lovely life, by the way. I'm not one of these guys That's like, if I didn't find comedy, I'd be in jail. No, I'd work for Amazon or something, and I'd have a wife and some kids, and I'd be okay.

It's interesting that you're writing this book because I remember it was probably, I think it was pre-pandemic, maybe right before the pandemic, there was an announcement that you were working on a book.

I was working on a book.

About interracial relationships. And you even I think on Facebook or maybe had a website where you were asking people to send in stories.

I was getting all the stories in.

What happened there?

You know what?

That book never showed up.

I'm not trying to be like a gangster or anything. I didn't like— there were just me and the publisher. And because when you're writing something about race, especially in this era of everybody taking everything out of context, I just didn't feel like everything I was saying to the publisher, I was getting You know, they were listening to everything I said. And I was like, hmm, I don't trust these people I'm working with. So I gave the money back.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

How much was that that you gave back?

It was a significant sum, more than I'm making today.

Yeah. Yeah.

More than I'm making for this interview.

I'll make the check out later. Do you think that taking things out of context is like an ongoing problem for— or having things taken out of context is an ongoing problem for artists and comedians now? Because it feels like there's so much discussion about whether somebody said something offensive or who's allowed to make what joke. And I just feel like I never know how real That is—

It's— I mean, I hate to say it, it's just bullshit, dude. It's like, it's just nerd bullies. It's like, you know how easy it is to go, hey, what, what did you mean by that? It's so easy to go, what did you mean by that, before you elect to be angry at something. It is so easy to ask somebody, hey, man, Could you not say that thing? I mean, I just felt a certain way when you said that. And then if you're ignored, yes, reply with anger. But it is so easy to pause and just go, hey, hey, man, did you mean what— it's so easy. So I don't know. I don't know who I was having this argument with. And people are like, oh, people are so sensitive. I'm like, no, they're not sensitive. They're mean. And they can't stop being mean. They can't— oh, this is my opportunity to be mean.

So you think it's all about meanness?

I'm just saying meanness is the new kale. It is on the platter.

Okay?

It's like, ooh, do you got any mean here?

Nothing is going to make meanness—

I'm going to order that mean real quick.

Nothing's going to make meanness seem less cool than comparing it to the new kale.

It's the new kale, man. It's so easy to go, okay, what? I'm sorry, what did you say? It's so easy. The fuck? I'm no genius. What did that take?

When is offense justified?

I mean, people are entitled to their feelings. Don't get me wrong. We're all entitled to our feelings. We're all entitled to be offended. Don't get me wrong. So don't take me out of context. Context does matter though. But a lot of people are ignoring context because it prevents them from being mean.

This morning when you came in, you said, I don't think I've been here since I filmed in Top 5. There's a scene in the Time Center. And you said, with the with the canceled all-stars, Scott Rudin and Charlie Rose.

And Charlie, yeah.

And I listened to a podcast interview you did with David Spade and Dana Carvey, I think earlier this year, and you used the phrase the canceled all-stars in that Carvey-Spade interview to talk about, I think, Louis C.K. and maybe Kanye, all people that you're—

Okay.

But how do you think about the question of— like, this actually relates to the movie in a way too, but the questions of forgiveness and who gets forgiven and why. Public figures, I'm talking about.

Public figures. Hey, man, I'm Black. What does that mean? When you're Black, White people believe every accusation is a conviction. I grew up 619 Decatur Street between Howard and Saratoga. If you go on your phone and punch up Roger Logan exonerated, a guy named Roger Logan who I grew up with, who was very— he was one of my best friend's brothers, went to jail for 19 years for a murder he didn't commit. And here's a weird thing.

Yeah.

His brother used to plead with me to pay for a lawyer for Roger, and I never did it. I always had like a no lawyer thing because a lawyer is like an open-ended thing. Like, I'll pay your mortgage, I'll put whatever, I'll— there's a bunch of shit I've paid for, education, all sorts of shit. I always stay out of lawyers because it's so open-ended. And it still fucks with me. I was like, I had the means to help him and I didn't. And I don't know if we could have got him out or not, but still. So all that to say is I'm Black. Black men get accused of shit they didn't do all the time. Every day in the paper, we let Black men out of jail. We go, whoops. Ooh, that Black guy just did 30 years. Too bad. So I don't know. To answer your question, when there's a convict, all this rumor shit, I'm not— hey, hopefully I don't get accused of anything, but you know what I mean? I'm handling it from a real place. This shit's real when people get accused of things, and you better be real sure they did it.

Am I making sense?

You're making sense. I think you're describing a kind of lived empathy that you have.

And I'll go even further. My grandfather, Alan Rock, he killed a man. You can look this up. I don't know if it's maybe Amsterdam News or something. Legend has it he thought the guy was sleeping with my grandmother. The guy lived next door. He told the guy, if you take another step in my yard, I'm going to shoot you. The guy took one step and my grandfather blew him away. My grandfather went to jail. And my grandfather was a preacher. And he gets out of jail. I don't know if he gets out of jail on a Wednesday, by Friday he was picking us up from school. And within a year or 2 years, he was the reverend of that church again. So A, if you accuse someone—

Wait, he was the reverend when he shot the guy?

Yeah.

Whoa.

So my brother shot a guy. My brother Charles, his government name is Charles, but he's a Five-Percenter. His name's Shabazz. So I say that all to say, my grandfather went to jail. He got outta jail. He did his time. So A, if you're gonna accuse somebody, make sure they did it. And B, when people do things, there's a fucking time limit in the real world, not in the, I'm a spoiled motherfucker and I went to private school and no, you know, yeah, in your world you just shun people, but in the real world we kind of have to live with each other, you know? So yeah. I mean, yeah. All that to say, it's up to the victims to forgive, I guess. And 2 things can be true. Like my brother shot a guy, right? I love my brother. Just because I love my brother, does that mean I think the person should have gotten shot? No. The last thing I'll say to you.

Mm-hmm.

When I was a kid, I don't know, 2, 3 times I was in police lineups. Howard Avenue. Stay away from Howard Avenue. Howard and Decatur. And you're with your friends, me, Darren, Baz, whatever.

This is in Bed-Stuy.

In Bed-Stuy. And you're minding your business and you get swooped up. And now you're in a police lineup. And you've seen enough fucking cop movies to know that behind that window is probably A person, probably a woman, could be a man, but probably a woman, right? And if they point at you, your whole life's over. Now here's, here's what's, what's fucked up. Like, and you guys, you guys are like the media. You're supposed to be in charge of the nuance of it all. Okay, I'm Chris. Chris has been on the stoop for fucking 4 hours. Chris didn't rob this woman. If she points at me, she's wrong, but she's not lying. What do you mean she's not lying? You didn't do anything. She's traumatized. And when you're traumatized, you try to wrap shit up. And for whatever reason, my dad drove a newspaper truck and I've been reading the paper since I was a kid. The news has taken all nuance out of it. Everything's black and white. Everything's black and white, man.

What you were talking about just now with your family story, that it seemed like that was really coming from a lot of personal empathy. But how did you— it's 2 questions. One, how does one consciously learn to be more empathetic? And then, is being more empathetic good for a comedian?

I guess it has to be. It better be, or I'm in trouble.

Yeah.

I don't know if I've learned to be empathetic. A friend of mine told me I had Asperger's a few years back, and I got it checked out. It wasn't Asperger's, but it was a thing called NVLD.

Non—

Nonverbal learning disorder. It requires its own level of therapy.

What are the effects of that?

The effects are I'm really bad with reading nonverbal signals. Most communication is nonverbal. I catastrophize. I have black and white thinking, both things that are great for being a comedian.

I was going to say, yeah.

But bad in personal life.

For life.

In personal life and real relationships. So I've been learning. Like, I have to see a woman once a week and go over my week. And we'll see what— well, you know what? Misty Green would be the first piece of art that I've done since my diagnosis, my first real Piece of art.

But wait, you said earlier part of what you're talking about in therapy is feeling like you're enough. Like, when do you— do you have, like, self-esteem questions, or—

I mean, all artists have self-esteem questions, you know, all, especially the good ones. I hope maybe I'm good. Knock on steel. Most artists are— what is it? It's an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. Yes. And I would absolutely fall into that. I am great. I hope they notice. I mean, so yeah, I can feel that way.

But so that, I think also, Eddie Murphy makes me feel like— Well, of course.

Still, in the presence of Eddie Murphy, I can get a little insecure.

Yeah. He was on this show about maybe 2 years ago. And just even in his stillest moments, just the charisma and the comedic ingenuity that just flows from that guy, it's like, yeah, there's a reason he's Eddie Murphy.

Yeah. Also, you know, not to name drop, like one of my biggest regrets in life is I could never relax around Prince. And he kind of wanted to be friends, you know what I mean? Like calling me and whatever and hanging out. I couldn't not be like, oh shit, Prince is drinking iced tea. You know?

Was he normal with you? Did you feel like you ever got to a place where he's just being a guy?

I think it was normal. I think it was— yeah, I think it was really normal. I mean, he's a normal rock star. You know what I mean? Like, those degrees of normal are so different than your— you know what I mean?

There's a great Prince story in— it's in Bono's— I think it's in Bono's memoir, where he says he's in some club and, like, Prince comes in and, you know, makes his exit by, like, walking across the tables out of the club. But out of the corner of Bono's eye, he could see that some of Prince's handlers were, like, holding the bottom of the tables to make sure that he wasn't gonna fall. So maintain the illusion.

Maintain the illusion. I remember, I might've told this story before, I'm at Prince's house, I'm in Minneapolis. I'd just done some shows. He had a party for me. after at Paisley Park. And it's like, whatever, he's playing, he's— I'm literally in the vault, okay? The vault is like a big— the vault was as big as this room, right? And he's playing me new music, and there's lots of people there, lots of people, men and women, whatever, right? And his wife called. I think he's married to Mai Tai at the time. And he was like, everybody, everybody be quiet. Be quiet. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta make that call. I guess he called her. He's like, be quiet. So it's like, whatever, 100 people, 200 people. Mai Tai called. It's him picking up the phone. Hey. Nothing. Nah, I'm just chilling. Yeah, I'll probably go to bed in a couple hours. Love you too.

Even Prince.

And then the party started right then. It was like, get off! You know, it's like right away.

Even Prince has to make a call.

Even Prince had to check in.

Do you think about what you want the rest of your career to look like? Because I know you said that you want to direct more films, but, you know, you also talked about the idea of, you know, like a an expiration date. And I really think it's hard for comedians. It can be hard for comedians to get older.

It can be definitely hard for comedians to get older.

It's hard for them to stay as edgy in the same ways. They're thinking—

But nobody stays edgy. You become the establishment. There comes earlier in your career, It's your performance, it's whatever you're doing, but it's also the promise of who you are. So the public's investing in this thing, like this stock. But later on, you're like LeBron. You're like, it's all results. And we'll give you a 1-year deal as long as you play like LeBron. You know what I mean? So right now, I got to deal with the audience where it's like, if it's good, we'll see it, Chris. I don't know. I mean, I've seen careers— people change. And I mean, Steve Martin's the king of reinvention.

I just— hearing you mention Steve Martin, again, spurs an idea for me about maybe changes in comedy. Where if you listen to a Steve Martin album, or you watch old footage of him, because of the style of comedy he's doing, which is so sort of absurdist and whimsical, you're never asking yourself, does he really believe that? But now I think there's really— it's almost like a litmus test where audiences are asking, whether they're saying it explicitly or not, like, does the comedian really believe what they're saying? Do you have— when you're on stage telling jokes about real-life things, about things in the news or cultural things, Are we supposed to understand that you believe what you're saying, or you're just saying what you need to say to make the bit work?

I mean—

Like, where— is there a distinction there that matters?

I mean, jokes tend to work better when there's some truth in them. You know, when they— you know, when you're not just making up stuff. I think the audience can tell who's fake.

Yeah.

You know, I just— they can tell. You know, they can tell if you're married. They can tell if you got kids. They can tell if you worked. They can tell. You can't fake anything. The thing about comedians, there's no mystique. You are who you are. You know what I mean? There's no Ziggy Stardust of comedians. You know what I mean? You just kind of are who you are. So, you know, I think— and either they're rolling with you or not.

Do you think you are who you are in your film work? What does Misty say about you?

I think sometimes I am what I am in my film work. I think Misty is a good barometer of me right now. Like anything I write, I'm Misty. You know what I mean? I'm like every character in the movie I've been on some level.

Hopefully not the Adam Driver character. He's like a guy who procures prostitutes for Saudi princes.

There is nothing different between the Adam Driver character in my movie and the Jack Lemmon character In the apartment. Oh, the apartment.

Yeah.

It's just an outfit and some hairstyle.

Yeah. And the drugs.

Like, like Jack— what the fuck? Alcohol is the biggest drug in the world. What are you talking about? See, you are leaving out your nuance.

It's true. It's true.

You literally are making my point in front of me. You conveniently made yourself stupid to make a point.

Well, I never conveniently make myself stupid. You just did it! It's on camera!

You got 5 fucking cameras here! You just did it!

Also, I'm willing to—

You just did it! You're so much smarter than that!

If people are like, oh, David left out the nuance of what, uh, what drug Jack Lemmon was using in Apartment, I'll dial it back.

It hurts you that Jack Lemmon was basically the same character, and you have this fucking love for The Apartment, which is deserved. It's one of the best movies ever. But that's what he was. He was a fucking pimp.

Yeah, yeah, I guess you're right. Um, I don't know where to go from that.

So fucking Jack Lemmon is a pimp. A P-I-M-P in The Apartment. He's a lovable pimp. He's a charming pimp.

But a pimp nonetheless.

But a pimp nonetheless.

In so many ways, we all are.

Or hoes. Mostly hoes. But, uh—

Chris, I, you know, I really appreciate you taking all the time to talk with me today.

Call me in 3 weeks. Hey, is this the one where they do a follow-up?

Yeah, if that's okay.

Yeah, yeah, okay. I'll play by the rules.

Starting now.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

On The Interview, we talk to our guests twice. So a couple weeks later, I spoke with Rock again, and he shared his thoughts on the so-called Woke 1.0 era. Chris, thank you for taking the time to speak with me again. I appreciate it.

Sure.

And I might sort of pinball around a little bit 'cause I got a lot of stuff I wanna ask you about. You know, before we spoke initially, I had asked if you could send over the names of some films that were kind of influential on Misty Greene. And you sent over a list that, Included Cabaret, of course, the great Bob Fosse film, Bad Lieutenant, the Abel Ferrara movie, Klute, the great Jane Fonda performance in that. Can you tell me a little bit about what those films in particular, how they helped you shape your vision for your movie?

I mean, there's a great line in Husbands and Wives.

The Woody Allen film?

Yeah. He's playing a professor. He's playing a writing professor. And he's— the line is something to do with, you can't teach people to write. All you can do is expose them to great writing and hope they pick up on it. You know? And it's just kind of the same thing with film. You know? You can't teach a person really to make a good movie. You just gotta show 'em some good movies and hope— that they, they run with it. All of those movies, especially the Fosse stuff, you know, like, I mean, I said Cabaret and Misty Greene is like, what's the, what's the Liza Minnelli? What's her—

Sally Bowles.

Yeah. There's a lot of Sally Bowles in that. Rudin, tell me to watch Cabaret. But also there's a lot of Lenny. in Misty Green. Yeah.

Bob Fosse's Lenny Bruce biopic. Yeah. Starring Dustin Hoffman.

Yeah. With Dustin Hoffman. Like, there's a lot of Lenny in Misty Green, you know? All I can say is I love those movies. And, you know, if you love them enough, you know, if they feed— my mother would always say, if you feed a kid long enough, he starts to look like you, you know? And if you love movies hard enough, you'll eventually make that kind of movie. You know what I mean?

Wait, did Fosse direct Star 80?

Uh, yeah, Star— it's a lot. Star 80 is my go-to.

Yeah, that also has some— like, just in terms of an LA Hollywood movie.

Star 80. Yes, I'm forgetting Star 80. Yeah, it's a lot of— how could I forget Star 80? It's, it's so Star 80. Uh, so yeah, the Fosse stuff more than anything, I would say. has been an influence.

There's a line in the movie that I wanted to ask you about, which is— it's sort of just a— it's said almost offhand in the film, but it's actually kind of a heavy line where I think it's the character that you play in the film says to Misty, true love starts with forgiveness.

Yes.

Is that your experience of forgiveness?

Well, okay. I think, yeah, you don't, it's, put it this way, you don't really realize if you love somebody until you have to forgive 'em. I can enjoy myself with just about anybody. You know, I really can. You know, I absolutely 1,000%, you know, Can. It's like, you want to go see Bruno Mars? It's hard to have a bad time if you're a decent person. It's when somebody tests you, when somebody betrays you, when somebody lets you down and you still want to be around them. And maybe you see what they were being faced with. That's now, and if you elect to proceed, now that's love. I have a friend that's going to be nameless that might've gotten canceled or whatever. And another friend of mine was like, well, how can you be friends with that person? And I was like, well, if you're only friends with your friends when they're good, they're not your friends. If you got a bunch of people that are only going to be there when you're good, you have no friends. Okay? And that doesn't mean condoning abusive behavior, because you can reprimand your friends. You can go up to one of your friends and go, hey, motherfucker, what are you doing?

That's also part of friendship.

So, um, but we all have a line, right? Just—

We all— I mean, you, you and I live in different worlds, dude. I got friends that are in jail. I got friends that are drugged out. I don't live like you.

You don't know that.

I can tell. I can listen. I can totally tell.

I mean, you happen to be right, but—

And by the way, I'm not, I'm not being dismissive of you. I'm just saying you just, you know, I've had to— my friends have tested me more than yours, and maybe I've tested them. Who knows? But I don't know. I'm not religious, but I'm a Christian, and God forgives. That's what it's all about. The problem with quote unquote wokeness. And don't get me wrong, it is great that marginalized people have a voice. It is great to advocate for anybody that feels marginalized. This is great. But the problem with wokeness is we're in the Old Testament right now.

Okay.

And the Old Testament has no forgiveness. The Old Testament didn't work, so they had to write a remix called the New Testament.

There's been this discussion lately about how the Woke 1.0 era, which I think refers to the immediate post-George Floyd era, was crazy. People say Woke 1.0 was crazy and AOC distancing herself from that and other Democratic politicians doing the same thing. And I just wonder, do you see that moment in time as just— that was just a crazy moment in time, or was there anything redeeming about it?

I think I just answered it. Again, it's great to help those that need help. That is an amazing— we need more of that. The problem is when you institutionalize it, That's the problem. This is my half a joke. The Salem witch hunts, I'm sure the first 3 witches they caught were actually fucking witches. But then you open up a witch office and now you got to start lying. Now you got to fucking make shit up because you got overhead.

You have to justify paying the witch hunters.

Yeah, you got to justify the witch hunters' fucking pensions and shit. So yeah, man, it's all good. I'm glad. I'm glad that all of this stuff happened. It needed to happen. And because it happened, maybe I've heard some voices that I probably wouldn't have heard otherwise.

Let me switch gears and ask a comedy question, if that's okay.

Sure. Before you even say that, because I keep saying how bad my friends are, I have some amazing friends too. I have some genius friends.

Who are?

I have some of the most—

Unproblematic people?

Unproblematic, most progressive, most— some of the greatest artists that have ever lived, some that you know of and don't, are my friends. So.

All right. On the record, some of Chris Rock's friends are perfectly fine people.

Just perfectly fine people.

All right. So one thing I always wanted to ask a great comedian is, do you think you understand what the purpose of laughter is? Why do we laugh at stuff? Why do we need comedy?

I never thought about it that hard. Here's what I do know.

Yeah.

The greatest feelings in life are sex and laughter. And we break up with people that we have great sex with all the time. We don't break up with anybody that makes us laugh. Okay? We try, we figure that shit out if somebody makes us laugh. And the ability to laugh at oneself is probably the highest form of intelligence. And the inability to laugh at oneself is a sure sign you're dealing with an idiot.

Uh, Chris, what— just either professionally or personally, like, what keeps you up at night right now?

What do you mean?

Like, what do you go to bed worrying about?

I don't worry about anything.

Oh, everyone worries about something.

I'm not worried about nothing, dude. I worry about my kids. That they're, you know, your kids, especially my oldest doesn't live with me, so I worry about my kids. But the world, the world is the world, dude. The world is exactly what it wants to be. It's sad where it's sad. It's happy where it's happy. But this is what people want.

Wait, what do you mean this is what people want?

This is what people want. People have the America they want. And if they want to change it, we'll see.

Do you like it? Is it the America you want?

No. I've been here a while. I have a long sample size. Martin Luther King was shot in 1968. Black people pretty much live where Black people lived in 1968, especially in New York City. We're Maybe a neighborhood or two is gentrified that wasn't. Maybe Beyoncé has more points on her deal than Aretha Franklin. But that is, for the most part, the real, real, real, real, real change. People are nicer. Blatant disrespect in the streets Doesn't happen like it did in 1968, but the distribution of wealth, the access to education, the access to healthcare is pretty much where it was when Dr. King got shot. And I could say that about other places in the world too.

And let me try and ask the hopefully more—

And somehow I got out of it.

Yeah.

But Louis Armstrong was the most famous singer in the world in the '30s and '40s. So Black entertainers have always kind of gotten off the Titanic before everybody else.

And let me try and end with what is intended to be a more Hopeful ending. It's the flip side to the—

Hey, Misty Green, October 9th, sexy movie.

Wait, let me ask the question. It's the flip side—

A24, those guys are great. No impression there.

Wait, let me ask the question. I just asked what keeps you up at night. What gets you up in the morning? What are you most excited about?

You know, it's weird. I'm excited every morning. It's my favorite time of the day. It's my favorite time to get up and take my walk and get my fruit and, you know, listen to the news a little bit. You know, 'cause every day can be great. You never know what's gonna happen. Even when you know what's gonna happen, you don't know what's gonna happen. So I wake up pretty happy, man. I wake up pretty optimistic on most days. And I'm very fortunate. I'm not going to sit here and act like my experience is everybody's.

I really appreciate you taking all the time to speak with me, Chris, and I enjoyed it a lot. So I especially enjoyed it when you pushed back at me. So thank you for that.

Oh man, this is— that's always where the good stuff is. I'll leave you on this. Like a friend of mine, and I hope I didn't tell you this, a friend of mine called me up. She was working on her special. And she said, I've had a hard time writing material. And I said, well, you have this podcast. And then what I need you to do is go to your podcast and every hard episode, that's where the material is. Every one you thought was a hard time, that's where the good shit is. So if I've given you a hard time, this is the good shit.

All right. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Take it easy.

All right.

That's Chris Rock. His new movie, Misty Green, will be in theaters on October 9th. To watch this interview and many others, subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast. This conversation was produced by Paula Neudorff. It was edited by Alison Benedict. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Rohan Nimisto, and Marian Lozano. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Seth Kelley, Joe Bill Munoz, Wyatt Orme, Jeremy Rocklin, Gaby Contreras, and Kathleen O'Brien. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.