Transcript of How will Trump impact football in the U.S.?

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Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akim Muller. Amongst the tech billionaires, cabinet committees, and former leaders, as Donald Trump was sworn in as US President, was the most powerful man in football. Fifa President, Gianni Infantino. So with both the club World Cup and World Cup taking place in the USA in the next 18 months, what impact will Trump and his policies have on football over the next four years? Here with us today, we have the athletics, Felipe Cardinas in Atlanta, and in Burlington, Vermont, women's sports lead, Meg Linnohan as well. Later on, Adam Crafton will be joining us from New York. Guys, let's get into this because hot news President Trump, once again, is President of the United States. Felipe, we know both the FIFA Club World Cup will be happening this summer and also the World Cup in 2026, which is co-hosted with Canada and Mexico. In your eyes, what influence do you think Donald Trump is going to have on these tournaments as the President of the United States?

I think it's wait and see. There isn't a clear association with Donald Trump unless you go really deep into his history or his Wikipedia and you find something where he's had some association with football. I know there are some reports popping up now, close to the 1994 World Cup and some of the influence there. But I don't think we know yet because it still feels It feels like a foreign international sport when we hit the mainstream in the United States. We all cover it. We live it. To us, it's what we talk about, it's what we write about. Football is the global sport. But in the US, when we get to a point where the US is going to host a major tournament, that's when the sport seems to fall into these little cracks of like, do people really care? What is the influence? I think Donald Trump, I think we know what he values. If there's an opportunity for him to find a way to make money off of something or link himself to something that is lucrative, that's going to happen. As we all know, everyone that's listening to this podcast knows that that is the business of football.

It is a very lucrative sport. I think from now, 2026, the next World Cup, through to the 2034 World Cup, which is going to be in Saudi Arabia, if you don't know about the relationship between the Saud and the Trump organization, we're going to find out about it. I think the world of football knows plenty about Gianni Infantino's relationship with Saudi Arabia, and now we see him cozying up with Donald Trump. I think those three parties are going to be aligned for the next decade or so. I think that's the influence. Will people link these major tournaments like the Club World Cup next summer and the Club World Cup and the Men's World Cup in '26 to Donald Trump? Maybe because he's the President, and I think he's a reflection of what this country is in some ways, whether you I don't believe it or not, but he is going to be the face at times of these tournaments.

Yeah. Meg, Philippe talks about the face of this country, and I guess the face of what this country is. I just wonder what impact some of the policies he's proposing will have on sports in general. During his term in office, he's pledged to keep men out of women's sport, which the National Women's Soccer League Commissioner, Jessica Bermen, has responded to. But when Barbara Banda was subject to abuse news that the league stayed quiet. What effect do you think these policies will have on women's sport moving forward, but also, I guess, the World Cup as well in general.

It's going to be so fascinating to watch this because obviously the NWSL and the US Women's National Team have lived through one term of Trump already. I think we saw a little bit more focus from Donald Trump on the US Women's National Team. Obviously, the 2019 World Cup, their equal pay fight was really what got his attention. Again, money, a real common theme here. But there was this combativeness between Donald Trump and Megan Rapino, where, to be fair, I think both sides were involved in it, but there's a vast power imbalance. Now what we're seeing from the NWSL is the league and the commissioner have said, We're going to live by our values, but those values are going to be tested. I think they did fail that first test with Barbara Banda, who's a cis player who is playing in the league, who is attacked over an alleged failed gender test that didn't happen, and the league did not intervene to say, Here's what is true. There are no rules being broken in this league. She is able to play. She is eligible to play. We have no problem with her. We stand by our player.

That didn't happen. The league has policies around who can play in the league. Obviously, they're a professional league, but there are going to be some much bigger picture questions coming down the line around trans players, around women's rights, around abortion, you name it, in the US, where players are going to want to play state by state, We're in a brave new world in the women's space right now.

I think what Meg is saying is interesting, too, because, again, if you follow Donald Trump in any way, you know that you're probably one tweet or one decision away from becoming an enemy of his. Right now, Gianni Infantino, very much arm and arm with Donald Trump. The link to Saudi Arabia is obviously there. There's a report just bubbling up this week with Saudi Arabia pledging, I think, over $600 billion of investment in the United States. It's linked to these threats that Donald Trump is levying on other governments that say or do things that are against American policy. That's happening. I think that brings us to the neighbors, to the South, Mexico, which is going to be a co-host of the 2026 World Cup. I think, will it be contentious because of the geopolitical aspect of the US and Mexico? That is a great question because I think right now, US-Mexico, in terms of football, has always been a really intense rivalry. It's always been linked to politics, whether the presidents of both countries are getting along or not. I don't remember ever hearing about the two presidents from the United States and Mexico going head to head, budding heads, the way it is right now with the President of Mexico and Donald Trump, really going after each other.

I think that will be interesting to follow. The World Cup is only, what, 500 days away. I don't think that relationship is going to be mended from now until 2026. It's going to be a constant battle of border policies. Obviously, we know that there are over 60 million Latinos in this country, so many of them Mexican-Americans. I think it will become something where, especially if these teams meet on the men's side very soon, even on the women's side in a friendly or in a major tournament, that is going to be an issue. It'll be really interesting to watch that.

We should also point out, too, that that US and Mexico are planning to bid together for the 2031 Women's Cup as well. No Canada, just US and Mexico.

That'll be great to see. That'll be great to see.

Could have make it up. Could have make it up. Wow. Adam, I know you've just joined us. You've joined us at a heated part of the conversation, actually. But welcome. I know you're in New York. Please lend us your thoughts on this. Philippe has just touched on a few things there in terms of some of the executive orders that have been floated at this moment in time, and which can create tension between Mexico and also trade orders that could create tension between Canada. I mean, is this something jarring when it comes to this World Cup? Because you're looking at so-called allies either side, but then you've got a President who's got very staunch views on how he wants to run the country.

In some ways, the World Cup is the least of it, isn't it? It feels slightly surreal to even be thinking about the World Cup at this point. But I think the bigger question is, what does Trump want to do with soccer? And the reality of that is we don't know what he wants to do anything on a given day. So the idea that he's going to be sat there with a whole blueprint of this is what I want to do with soccer over the next 18 months, the guy doesn't work like that. He works off relationships and influences and impulses And I think that everyone else is almost going to be in the haywire of that. And there will be fallouts and fall-ins. Philippe is absolutely right. Infantino at the moment is in the club. I don't think you'll see Infantino fall of the club because I think Infantino is in a really actually complex position here because this was meant to be the easy World Cup, at least on the men's side. You've done Russia, you've done Qatar. Usa, Mexico, Canada was meant to be the good PR one. It wasn't meant to be this challenging.

And there's things that FIFA, just from a procedural policy point of view, actually need to get over the line over the next 18 months. And when you host a World Cup, part of the bidding requirements are the two big things that FIFA are looking for. The first are visas, the ability to get everyone in and out of the country in an easy and safe way during a tournament. They want as many people as possible coming into the country. What does Donald Trump say he wants to do? He wants as many people as possible out of the country. That's the policies we're hearing about, mass deportations. That's not any exaggeration. And then the other bit is tax breaks. And And we know that Trump is very much America first. He's not FIFA first, he's America first. So that's two policies straight away, which, by the way, when Trump was President last time, he was the President who gave those guarantees saying this would be possible. It was jarring, actually, at the time, because you had... Do you remember the travel ban, where there was the bands of people coming in from predominantly Muslim countries? He still gave these assurances, these written guarantees to FIFA to say people will be able to come into the country during this time.

Now, just because Trump's given a guarantee doesn't mean he'll actually do it. That's the other bit that FIFA, I think, will be conscious of. Actually, and this is the slightly interesting bit, FIFA had been really struggling with the Biden administration to get these visas over the line. And it's a really big issue in this, because if you are, for example, in Colombia at the moment, and you're trying to get a travel visa, to come to the United States as a tourist for the World Cup, you need to be applying now. The waitlist at Bogotá at the moment, the last time I checked, was over 500 days. So if you want to be coming to this World Cup, you have to have already applied unless you've previously visited the United States and already have that travel visa. Now, I think the US State Department's view on that has been, well, the people that are basically rich enough will already have a visa anyway. Fifa This view is far more, we don't really want it to just be the preserve of people who have already got this visa. We want it to be more accessible. Those are just some of the procedural points that FIFA are very concerned about, tax breaks and visas And that's what they're going to be possibly butting heads with.

But you could also, on the flip side, very much imagine Trump, despite everything he says about mass deportations and America first saying, It's America. Welcome the World. It's the World Cup. It's my World Cup. You're already hearing him talk about the Olympics and the World Cup as, I got it here, guys. I got it here, guys. They couldn't get it. Obama couldn't get it. True, by the way, that Obama couldn't get it, but for many reasons that aren't really anything to do with Obama or Trump. He will want it to look like his show in the same way as Putin did, in the same way as Qatar did.

Okay, well, let's move on because we do want to look more into that relationship between FIFA President Infantino and Donald Trump. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Io Akamwalee.

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We even have one that's solar-powered. I just want to say you're led by a man named Johnny.

I just know him as Johnny, and he's a winner. Man, he's the President, and I'm the President, and we've known each other a long time.

That was Donald Trump there speaking via video message at the launch of the FIFA Club World Cup. Felipe, a quick one on you. What does Trump's growing relationship with FIFA President, Johnny Infantino, tell us about power and influence when it comes to winning major tournaments?

It's Johnny. It's Johnny, according to- Oh, sorry.

Johnny. I apologize. My American-Italian- Yeah, neither is Donald Trump.

No, it's like I mentioned. I think this is a relationship built on mutual interest. I think no one should be surprised to see Gianni Infantino at the presidential inauguration or just taking pictures with Donald Trump and posting on Instagram. There It's not necessarily recency bias, but I think for Gianni Infantino, knowing that this is going to be the president, and like I said before, the face of the nation at these major tournaments, it's probably just good for him to be on the good side. At But like Adam said, there's no guarantee that Infantino is not somehow going to be shoved out of the boys club right now. Right now, he's in, and we know why. No one that follows football is ever surprised by the power brokering that happens at the very top level of international sports. Between the two, like Adam says, some of the things that we are talking about in terms of what Donald Trump will say or how he'll approach a certain tournament or whether or not a relationship will stay as solid as it is, a lot of what Donald Trump really is, is you just have to wait and see.

One day he could be one way and the other day he might be out. I think with Gianno Infantino, he is someone who has made, I think, It's been his personal quest, honestly, to get a World Cup to Saudi Arabia. He's lived in the Middle East for several years. If there's anything that you know about the Saudis in sport, is that they're willing to spend as much money as possible to essentially own a piece of the pie, if not own it outright. I think the concern is that very obvious shift of global football going in that direction when we know that there are some very severe and concerning human rights issues that are going to be part of that World Cup in 2034. We faced them in 2022 in Qatar. Looking back what now two, three years ago, it does seem unfortunate that some of those issues have been just brushed under the rug for no one else to see. If that's going to be the case in 2034, it really doesn't shock me, to be honest with you.

Meg, Felipe uses the word concern, and I wonder how important it is also to scrutinize this World Cup happening in the United States. We scrutinize Russia, we scrutinize Qatar, we scrutinize Saudi Arabia, welcoming fans of various ethnicities, religious persuasions or sexualities. How important is it to look at America and say, yes, I know this is the so-called free, well-developed world, but why can't we scrutinize it? Yeah.

The idea that America is above any scrutiny right at the moment is just beyond absurd at this point. I think there was even that sense after the Men's World Cup in 2022 of, sure, okay, there's going to be plenty of things that we need to be keeping an eye on here. I think America's general love of guns is going to be a massive problem for a lot of people outside of this country that I think, unfortunately, a lot of us have just been boiled alive in that concept for a very long time. But I also think there's going to be labor issues. There's going to be, do you feel safe traveling to certain states. I think we're already going through those issues. I know US Women's National Team fans are frequently like, I don't feel safe going to Florida or Texas for any number of reasons, whether that's because of their sexuality, if they're trans, women's rights. There are issues happening across the board. This is going to be a World Cup where I think we have to really take a hard look at ourselves. I don't know if anybody actually... I feel like we're going to get a lot of attention here in America from across the globe, but there is already this sense of major tournaments like this do, I think, expose a lot of underlying and big issues.

Olympics are the same way. I think everybody's already looking to LA 8 also will be under Donald Trump and going, Okay, Los Angeles has just gone through a series of major fires. Who's going to get priority in terms of rebuilding if the Olympics are also coming to town? Who's going to get displaced if the Olympics are coming to town? Those have always been big questions about major tournaments, especially on the men's side. And so, yes, America 100 % deserves the scrutiny, especially with Donald Trump as President, and what that's going to mean for hosting a Men's World Cup.

Meg is spot on. If you go, You'd only have to go back to last summer with the Copa America. I think it was a wake-up call for American organizers. They looked really naive in a lot of ways in how to handle a major international football tournament. For Meg and I, who We live in the States, we go to NFL stadiums all the time, whether we're fans or we're working a game. For me, at that Copa America, there were a lot of times where it felt like this was the very first time that some of these people were even working an event of this magnitude. The lines for the press, the lines for the fans. Obviously, we know what happened at the quarter final between Uruguay and Colombia, where there was a brawl in the stands between players and fans. And then obviously, the final in Miami were thousands presence of fans were trapped outside, pressed against the gates, and eventually let in when so many didn't have tickets, others did. It was just a complete mess. We were honestly inches from tragedy at that final in Miami. I think to Meg's point, there's this perception that everything is perfect here.

Oh, you have the stadiums, you have the infrastructure, no big deal. The Copa America proved that there is still a high sense of not knowing, honestly, what international football is, what fandom can turn into if you're not prepared. I'm honestly anxiously waiting to see how that shifts and what FIFA does in this case. I know the Copa America was a comable run tournament, but FIFA officials were there. We know that. That's going to be an issue, is security. That's the biggest issue, I think.

All right, Meg. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you've got to go. I really appreciate your contributions to the conversation.

No problem. Bye.

Yeah, Adam, let's come back to it. Infantino's role in this relationship. It's a really fascinating one because I think I'm caught in two minds here because look, if you're going to be hosting a World Cup in any country, there's a little greasing of the palms that has to happen of whoever's running the country, regardless of who it is. But then my question is, what do you think of the influence that Infantino has in this World Cup in America, but also that connection with Trump? How fascinating is that to you to see how they're both talking about how they've had this long term relationship booming for quite a while?

Infantino being in a strong relationship with the leader of a country that is hosting an event is not a new phenomenon. Go back to Russia, go back to him receiving a medal of honor from Putin. It was either just before or just after the World Cup in 2018. Wasn't he sat between MBS and Putin at that Saudi Arabia Russia game? This isn't new and this isn't unique to Donald Trump. This is basically Infantino being a mind-blowingly good politician in some ways in his ability to get where water can't. I don't think the NFL and NBA commissioners were at the inauguration. I got messages at the inauguration from people watching the inauguration the other day, basically being like, who's the bold soccer dude on the back row? What's he doing a couple of rows behind Clinton and Obama and all these illustrious people of American society, near other people like Zuckerberg and Musk and Bezos? And what's the guy from FIFA doing there? It's been a really interesting relationship. And it does go back to the fact that Trump was in office when US, Mexico, and Canada won the bid against Morocco back in 2018. It was a couple of years process.

We did a piece on this, I think, the day before the election, partly because we thought Trump might never be relevant again. You almost have to do that piece then in case no one's really thinking about Donald Trump anymore. We're now in a very different world a few weeks later. But what was interesting that came out of that, I actually spoke to one of his advisors, Jason Miller, and said, what went on with this? And this was just over a text message, and his reply was just, this was all Jared. And Jared is his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner had a huge role relating to this World Cup. He was basically the touch point of the bid team when they were trying to get all these written guarantees that you have to get. Whether it would have been Obama in the White House, Clinton or Trump, you needed these assurances. Every country has to do this. There is a political involvement in getting the guarantees that you need. But little by little, that relationship developed. Actually, the touch point, I think, that initially connected the big team and FIFA and Infantino was a billionaire called Robert Kraft, who owns the New England Patriots, who owns the It's the Gillette Stadium, isn't it, in New England?

And Boston have done pretty well, right, out of this relationship. They've ended up with seven games, joined the World Cup. Actually, as it turns out, the relationship now between Bob Kraft and Trump, I don't think is as good. He came out after January the sixth and basically said his view on Trump had changed as a result. Now, we've heard quite a few people whose views on Trump changed after January the sixth, who, since he's returned to power, They'll have a different view again. So that may change. Who knows? But what was interesting is the relationship between Trump and Infantino never faltered. And what we do know about Trump for the many flaws that people may talk about is he's quite loyal to those who are loyal to him. And Infantino, this was really quite interesting. There was a moment at Davos, I think it was January 2021, where Trump was being introduced to speak. At that point, the ground rules were being set on his Senate impeachment trial, and Infantino still got up to do the introductory speech before Trump spoke. And Infantino stands in this room and basically compares Trump to a great He's a sportsman saying he's got the fiber of an elite athlete, that he's brave, that he's this, that he's this, that he's this, that he's this, that he's this.

Actually, I wonder whether Trump looks at moments like that when other people are rounding on him and thinks, Hey, this guy, Johnny, he stood by me. Actually, now I'm back in power, I might look after him, too. But I think there's also a little bit of... He clearly loves the platform that sport can give. We saw within 48 hours of winning the election. He was at the UFC. Musk was there next to him. You've got Dana White from UFC was there. Yassr al-Rumayyan, the chairman of LiveGolf, but also the governor of PIF, also the chairman of New Castle United, was also two seats down. There is a prestige and a platform. Also, if you remember how Trump won the election, a lot of people were talking at the time, weren't they, about the podcast he did with Joe Rogan, this three-hour podcast, this bro-sphere, this manosphere that he appears to have connected with. And maybe he sees the World Cup, the Olympics as all the connection of that. We've spoken for years about this idea of using sport as as a means of extending popularity, of extending cultural influence, of sportswashing, perhaps. I don't know.

Do you agree, Felipe? I do, because Donald Trump, before he was a politician and now a major head of state, has always been a showman, has always been around Hollywood. You remember The Apprentice and that reality TV show that he had. He was in Home Alone as a cameo. He was honestly revered in that space for so long, in the '90s and the mid-2000s. That's probably part of his draw to Gianni Infantino and to world football, because he sees it. I think he doesn't know much about it, but what he sees are these galas. He sees money He sees opportunity.

Sorry, the other thing he sees is rating. Totally. If there's one thing that Donald Trump understands, it's ratings. How many people watch the World Cup final? Billions. So he will be there, right? Front and center.

100 %, yeah. He's turned up at some college football games. College football, for the listeners that don't know here in the States, I compare it. I think it's the sport that most is the closest to the tribalism of world football. The college universities here are billion-dollar industries. College football is a major sport. Last season, when he wasn't present, he was campaigning and it wasn't going that too well, he turned up at a huge game here in the South. The South is obviously Trump country. It was an opportunity for him to come out and say, I'm still here, I'm still relevant, to Adam's point. And so I think he probably loves this part of the game, honestly, and probably feels he's pretty good at it.

The other bit which has remained constant, even when Trump was out of power, the Jared Kushner involvement with FIFA really has been significant. When it came to getting the final to New York, New Jersey, Kushner, who does he appear to be a genuine soccer fan? I'm not sure, but he certainly appears to appreciate- He's a soccer dad.

That happens a lot here in the States. Someone says, Oh, my kid plays soccer. Suddenly, I'm a big fan. I think that's where that's coming from.

I think Trump said his kid played soccer as well. Same thing. Yeah, same thing.

But what was funny about the Kushner bit is even when Trump wasn't in power, so there wasn't necessarily a huge amount to gain this time last year, potentially. Kushner was the person who was organizing the big meetings with Infantino and business leaders in New York, and even the New Jersey governors who traditionally lead Democrat.

Don't forget Tiffany. Adam, don't forget Tiffany.

Tiffany, and the trophy. But the final didn't look guaranteed to go to New York. Dallas was in line for it as well. New York always made no sense from a media perspective, also from a time zone perspective, arguably weather. But Kushner was the touch point for that as well. So even when Trump was out of power, was still having an influence. And we then saw this at the Club Worldup a draw just a few weeks ago in Miami, where within a week or so, maybe it was a couple of weeks after winning the election, you've got Trump giving a video address to this room of football club owners of teams competing in the Club World Cup. And this isn't a ratings winner. No one knows how big this thing is yet, but he's leaning his support to it. And you've got Jared Kushner literally in the room with his wife, with Trump's daughter, and their grandchild, literally pulling balls out of the draw, right? I mean, it was completely surreal, but also made total sense if you've followed this world over the last few years or so. And of course, it was, as Trump told us, it was Jared's idea that Ifany would design the trophy.

All right, let's move on, because next we want to find out what legacy the World Cup coming to America will have on US soccer. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Io Acomalero. This is the Athletic FC podcast with Io Acomalero. I used to play, and we call it here, soccer.

That's right.

It's never worked out as well as the United States as it has elsewhere.

But Although we're having the World Cup pretty soon coming to the United States, so that should be great. But it's a great game. I love soccer. I played actually in high school. I played soccer.

So you know what it's all about.

Oh, I love it.

That was Donald Trump there back in 1992, speaking to a guy our American fans might not know, called Jimmy Reeves from Trump Tower, about the upcoming 1994 World Cup, having helped draw the quarter final of the 1992 League Cup. You need to watch that clip. He actually came across as quite a pleasant guy and actually was an advocate for women's soccer and saying how the US women were the best in the world at the time. But let's move on to this conversation, Felipe. The US hosted the World Cup back in 1994, as we've just said, but it failed to capitalize and work its way into the mainstream. Now, the bigger question is, given the power and influence football can have and offer the global game, do you get a sense that hosting this tournament will galvanize how football is dealt with in the USA? I only say this because I have this weird thought that the World Cup comes in, a bunch of guys make a whole heap of money for 18 months or so, and then the circus goes, and then the LLMLS, which you'd love to see grow, stays the same.

Yeah, I think And just off of that sound bite, and to your point of Donald Trump supporting women's soccer, women's sports, it's a whole other podcast to talk about his previous ideologies, and where he was aligned before. But we are in present day, and to your point, we're about a year away from the World Cup. And this World Cup in 2026, it's multi-pronged. And what is the effect going to be on MLS? What is the effect going to be globally? Who's going to get rich? What will it do, to Adam's point, TV ratings and stadium infrastructure. There are a lot of downtown host cities that are revitalizing as we speak, preparing for the World Cup. So you're going to see growth in that economic sense. What it does for the sport and Trump's role in it, again, it's wait and see. I don't link the growth of football in the United States to a politician or to who the President and head of state is. I mean, that's just never been the case. What we know about football in the United States is that, yes, it's a growing sport. I think we can argue, at what point will it just be a sport and not be this developmental program the way it's sometimes marketed?

The growth has been incredible. For someone like me that lives and breathes what soccer looks like in the United States, it's night and day compared to what it was in '94. Now, there are major steps that should be taken off of the 2026 World Cup. Will MLS be able to entrench itself in mainstream American sports culture? That may never happen, guys. Honestly, it just may never happen. That won't be perhaps to anyone's fault. It just is the way that the wave of the American sports landscape truly is. I mentioned college football before. That is a sport that is so huge, and it's growing. In comparison to MLS, it's really difficult to catch those sports like the NFL and college football. If Trump is just vocally supporting American soccer, if he comes out with some sound bite that promotes MLS, those are all honestly good things. It may not matter, though. The World Cup may not be a watershed moment for the growth of professional football in the United States. It might just be, to what we discussed, a major, major event in the United States where people get rich, where it's a major tournament. It's the first time 48 teams are going to be there.

That's going to be the focus. And the fact that this is a massive country with its own issues and the way the tournament progresses, that's a bigger story, perhaps now than what happens 10 years later.

Do you buy that, Adam? Do you just feel that perhaps the MLS just takes its at least on the ranking of American sport because it is where it is. Are you going to challenge basketball? Are you going to challenge the NFL? Or do you just work with it the way it is? Market it the best you can? Just admit perhaps it's fourth or fifth tier.

I don't think MLS can ever admit that or should admit that. Mls has a lot of issues at the moment. It's very strong in some local markets. Attendance is very strong in some local markets. Participation is growing in most parts of the country pretty well. There's issues relating to the cost, actually, for young people to play soccer in the United States. In every other part of the world, it's one of the most socially accessible sports. I think in the United States, it's nowhere near cheap enough, frankly, for many young people of working class backgrounds to actually play. Additionally, there is a media issue that MLS has at the moment that people aren't watching it, as far as I can tell.

No, people go to the stadium, to your point, attendance is really good, but people don't watch on TV. That's the problem. Yeah.

And it's obviously behind this Apple paywall. And that's a real challenge at the moment. I was actually in Vegas last weekend and talking to one of the sports books at Vegas, and I said to them, in just soccer, where does MLS come in terms of the most bettied on league that you take money on? Do you want to guess what number that was for MLS?

Six. Yeah, I'll say around six, seventh. I don't think it's up there.

It was the ninth. So the domestic league in the United States was the ninth most bested on soccer league. Not talking about all sports there, just broker. Ligamx was second, which won't shock people who followed that space. But that's an issue, right? Because that tells you that people aren't watching it on TV because people bet on what they're watching on TV. So I think ultimately, MLS has missed a moment to a large extent to be more ambitious in terms of spending. You're still here with this trade window at the moment. We're going to go and get this old guy. We're going to get this other old guy. We're going to get this other old guy. So I know they're changing that to a certain extent, but I think for most people who can watch any league, they've seen the old guy when the old guy was the young guy. And although that's appealing in local markets, I don't think it's that appealing as a TV product unless it's a messy. If it's Marco Reuilce, it's like, okay, but I've seen Marco Reuilce play when he was pretty good in the Champions League. I don't know if I want to tune in and watch him at 35, 36 when he's less good, it's not that stimulating.

Then there is just the issue of FIFA arrived really late into the United States. They've now set up a base in Miami, but it's late. I still think there's a lot of people in this country that don't know there's a World Cup happening here in 18 months time.

That's true.

Unless you're a soccer fan, you don't necessarily know it's happening. And I'm not sure there's been enough of a push, actually, to start really engaging people with it. It'll be fine when it gets here. It'll sell. People will come. It'll be a great success. But when you talk about legacy, I do think that FIFA could have been doing a lot more in local markets to basically be saying, we're coming and this is what we're going to do and this is how we're going to do it, and we're going to give you this, we're going to do these workshops, and we're going to get local kids involved. You should have kids in all these markets running around in FIFA shirts at the moment, from little training camps and stuff like that. Come to these places, hit the moment, but they're not really doing that. So that's a bit of a shame. But before all that, we've got the Club World Cup, so maybe that will ignite the imagination. Yeah, exactly.

I'll tell you where Donald Trump's legacy with football may be linked, and I think this is something that perhaps him and his administration just don't think about it. This will tell you perhaps how out of touch the administration is with what global football means. He has signed an executive order. It's going to go to court, obviously, across the country. But this removing birthright citizenship for sons and daughters, for children of illegal immigrants in the United States. Think about that from a global football perspective and from a country that is built on immigration, a national team that for decades has featured players that are from immigrant families in the United States. That's something that in our own little bubble within American soccer is being talked about. What is the impact for the the men's national team, the women's national team as well, 10, 20 years from now? I think especially for the men who have really relied on players of immigrant backgrounds for their skill level or their culture to really improve American soccer soccer, and everyone here in the States wants to see the men be better at an international stage. What does this mean for development, for opportunities?

It's already very expensive, to Adam's point, to play high-level youth soccer in the United States. There's for decades have been debates about kids falling through the cracks because they don't have the financial means. But if they're not in the country anymore, that's a problem as well for a country that wants to be better and wants to build a national team that reflects its culture. So that's going to be one to watch. And that could, in the end, if it really goes through and years go by and it's something that affects not just American policy, but everything from sport to economics, that'll be part of Donald Trump's legacy as That will impact Team USA as well, right?

At the Olympics in decades to come.

Yeah, for sure. All right, let's end it there, gents. Really appreciate your time, Adam, Philippe, and also Meg, who had to leave us earlier as well. And thank you so much for listening. Marco Bailey will be with you for the preview tomorrow, looking ahead to Manchester City versus Chelsea. You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou, and Jay Beale. The executive producer was Aydee Morehead. To listen to other great athletic podcast for free, search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify, and all the usual places. The Athletic FC podcast is an athletic media company production.

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