Transcript of #235 John "Tig" Tiegen - 13th Anniversary of the Benghazi Attacks

Foreign.

Tegan, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks for having me. You might regret it, but we'll see.

I don't think I'll regret it, but. Yeah. So, talked a lot about Begazzi on the show, and, you know, we've had our former colleagues on, the people that you were there with, the ones that came public anyways, and so you're kind of the last one of the stack. And I've been really looking forward to this, man, ever since we talked, what, a couple months ago?

Yeah, it's been a. Yeah.

So I appreciate you coming in.

Thanks for having me on, man. Appreciate it.

My pleasure, my pleasure. You ready to get into it?

No, but I guess I got no choice. I'm here now, so.

All right, everybody starts off with an introduction. John Tegan, a Colorado native and former United States Marine Corps sergeant. A seasoned private security contractor starting with Blackwater in 2003. Later joined the CAA's elite Global Response Staff. Also known as GRS. A hero of the 2012 Benghazi attack. You are one of the six GRS operators who defied orders to stand down, fought through 13 grueling hours of chaos, and helped save dozens of American lives. Co author of the bestselling book thirteen Hours, the Inside Account of what really Happened in Benghazi. A. A dedicated husband and father of twin sons. And most importantly, out of everything. You're a Christian.

Yes, sir.

Am I missing anything?

I don't think so.

Well, I can think of something I'm missing. You're running for mayor in Colorado Springs.

Yeah, I'm going to be doing that.

So we'll definitely hit that up. And a musician.

I am not a. Well, definitely not a musician. Or should I say magician? Is that what that one?

Magic?

Do you remember that interview? I don't know if you saw that one. Anyways. Oh, yeah, yeah. Anyways, I would say more. I don't know. I wouldn't call myself a music writer. I just kind of wrote some stuff down, I think. I posted a couple of the. The poems online and actually David Corlew got a hold of me. He said, hey, you need to do a voiceover on this. So I was like, you know, I hate hearing myself because I don't watch my own interviews.

Me neither.

Yeah, so you have to filly. So I'm like, okay, fine. But I started reading it and I didn't like the way it flowed, so I started changing it up a little bit. Then I had a buddy, another buddy hit me up, said, hey, you should throw it in, you know, make it into a song. I was like, I don't know how to make anything to a song. So he told me about a program, said, put it in here. It'll actually. It'll, like, sing it to you. And that's kind of how it came. That he started changing the lyrics around and kind of make it sound good. And that's kind of where it came from.

Well, it sounds good.

Not really a. I don't think I'm a writer, music writer, but David Corlew, he's. He's. Yeah, he's gonna work with me, I guess.

Right on, man. He's a good dude.

Oh, he is.

How long have you known David for?

Probably since like. When did we meet him? I think it was in the book tour. Met him and Charlie. We went to the Grand Ole opry, I think 2014, when we first did the book tour.

Damn. Right on.

So 20. 2014, 2015. Sometime around there.

10, 11 years.

Yeah.

It's a good man to know. I. I've been buddies with him for. Man, I don't know either. Less time than that. It was right when we moved here, so probably around 18.

Yeah.

But what an awesome guy.

Oh, he is. He's really good. He's a really good cat. So.

Well, a couple things to knock out here before we get into the interview. So I have a Patreon account. It's a subscription account, and kind of like Onlyfans. It's kind of like Onlyfans, except I keep. At least I keep the majority of my clothes on. So now, if I was in my 20s, you know, we'd probably go the full gambit.

But you do the foot thing at least, you know, that's a fetish.

But they've been with me since the very beginning, a lot of them have, and it's turned into quite the community. And so one of the things I do is I offer them the opportunity to ask each and every guest a question. And so this is from Ian Lane. It's a good question. You've seen firsthand what happens when politics and hesitation cost lives. Do you think America is any better prepared today? Or are we doomed to repeat Benghazi in a different place and a different time?

Yeah, I would say. Yeah. Because if you look at. I mean, just through the history of what things have happened, when I would say leadership is not truly held accountable, nothing changes. But, you know, we got. It really just depends on the administration that's involved and, you know, what their mindset is, actually changes it. But until people are actually held Accountable and for the. Even just for somebody being killed, when they just promote somebody or just reprimand them, again, your leadership, and you're in that position and that. That is your responsibility to make sure that they have what they need to make sure they come out alive. And, you know, if somebody gets killed because of your lack of leadership, your lack of oversight, you should be held accountable to where, again, involuntary manslaughter. It is what it is until stuff like that happens. It will happen again.

Yeah, I mean, it's fucking sad, man.

It is. I mean, it's a tough decision to make, but again, you're. You're responsible for the lives of the people on the ground, you know, like Lamb, they're requesting for stuff. When I was In Benghazi since 2011, they were requesting for more support, you know, talking to the security guys, because we'd go over there almost every week, you know, and they would say, yeah, we always get denied. And ask them why. They would never tell us why again. This is from their mouths. And, you know, when the concert was attacked the second time over there, there was only two security personnel over there at that time. You know, I believe this was like in April then. It happened about 1 o' clock in the morning. So I was there that night. So that's how I know. And we got told to stand down then. But again, when stuff like that happens, you know, it's a security risk. You know, there's failures, and you don't do anything about it. Until you people are held accountable, you. Nothing will ever change, man.

It's just crazy, you know? Do you remember when the coast bombing was?

Yeah.

What. What year was that?

I want to say 20. 2010. 2011 or something. No, I think it was 2010. It was like, around. It was Christmas, man.

I just. I remember working over there and it was just the same mistakes everywhere.

Oh, yeah. And you'd bring it up. I did it too. You know, I was. I actually went somewhere else. I was supposed to go back to there. And. Yeah, we kept telling him, like, we gotta search these guys when they come on. No, no, they're our friends. They're our buddies. It's so. Again, it's like.

Yeah, it was like. I can't remember. Excuse me. I can't remember if it was your event in Benghazi or if it was the Coast, Bobby. But I remember deploying in a Christmas time frame. I think it was right after Christmas, and I feel like it was the coast bombing that had just happened. But it may have been Benghazi But I remember getting over there, and I was just like, guys, like, we're time and place predictable. We're doing the same shit every single fucking day, you know? And I was brand new.

It was probably Coast.

It might have been coast, and.

And.

But whatever it was, I brought that up, and I was like, we can't be doing this shit. Like, this is. I was new at soc. I just went from Blackwater to Sock, and then eventually went direct. But I was like, we. We're gonna get killed. Like, you guys just saw what just happened. You know, we got it. I'll be damned. 24 hours later, safe house got hit. And, you know, luckily nobody got killed. But, dude, it was just the same thing over and over and the same excuses like that. Well, no, we don't search them because they're our friends or, oh, well, you know, we've been doing this for years, and it's like, yeah, that's exactly what we need to switch it up.

Exactly. So it's. We never understood that at Coast. Never. Never understood that at all.

Were you at coast when it happened?

No, I was. I went to another. I went to another location, but I just. I was at coast three trips in a row. Normally you go back four times. But then I end up getting. I had the golden visa, so I went over there.

Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I can't believe we never worked with each other.

Yeah, that's. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's crazy. I went to more forward bases. I was at in Cabo, like, my first trip. Then after that, it was out the other locations. Did Iraq twice. And, yeah, I hated Cobble. Yeah, I hated it, too.

I like the outstation.

Oh, yeah, Way better.

There's a lot more. A lot more going on than yes.

So too much flagpole crap?

Yeah, man, but. Well, a couple other things. Everybody gets a gift. Oh, yeah, he perked up for that one, didn't you, Axel?

All right.

Easy, fellow. But so, yeah, those are Vigilance league gummy bears. Legal in all 50 states. Not that you have to worry about that in Colorado, right? Yeah, but, yeah, it's just candy. And then I got another thing for you.

All righty.

So I got a buddy over at Sig. His name's Jason, and I told him you were coming on, and he got all excited. He wanted me to give you this. So that is the SIG P211 GTO. It is SIG's first 2011 style pistol, and they did a damn good job. It's heavy, isn't it?

I like it. I have the. I carry the legion.

You do the 365. Which legion?

The.

The X. Oh, nice.

Yeah, it's a big. This is. I mean, it's about the same weight. I just like heavier guns, man.

Feel that trigger, man. Yeah, they got the compensator up front. Redid their optics line. Hey, buddy.

That is nice. Oh, the reset's nice.

Yeah.

Crisp.

It's good to go.

I like that.

Not that you need that with this guy running around you all the time, you know, he's.

Although he's a very good deterrent. I'll bet he is.

He's got my acid line, that's for sure.

Oh, this is sick. Appreciate it, man.

Yeah, man, you're welcome. You're welcome.

We'll.

We'll break it in on a break, right?

Heck, yeah. This be my first. First one. Nice. Yeah, I got the compact and the X, and now I have this one.

Nice, nice.

I like. I did. I've like Sigs.

Me too, man. Me too. They make a great firearm.

They do.

But. All right, so let's get into the interview. So like I mentioned.

Well, I thought we were done. Thanks for coming.

Yeah. So like I said, I want to get into. My favorite thing to do, my bread and butter, is to do life stories on gentlemen like yourself. And so do a life story. Get into your military career, how you got into contracting grs. I would love to talk about, obviously, what happened in Magazi and then everything that you're doing now, including running for mayor, so. So where did you grow up?

Well, I was born in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, so I lived there pretty much until about third grade or something like that, so. And that's actually where I wanted to join the military. Not really having the good. I get structured family life. You know, mom worked at a bar, just all that stuff. So she was there, never really there at night and always slept during the day. So I guess it was kind of fun. But. Oh, yeah, I guess. Yeah, maybe some stores. I probably shouldn't say on here as a kid, but. So there was recruiting army recruiting station across the street and we lived like on the Main Ave. Not for a long time, but one of the main ones on the Main Ave. So right across the street was the crating station. So to and from, usually from school, I'd always go there because, you know, parents went home anyways. Plus they always had snacks and posters and, you know, patches they'd always give you. Yeah. So I always, always hang out there and so that's kind of. But it was with the army, and it was actually. I wanted to fly the Apache helicopter.

No kidding.

Yeah, that thing was just badass, man. You know, then. Plus, Airwolf was out, I think, at that time, too. So if you don't know what Airwolf is, you know, go look it up. But TV show. But anyway, so. But unfortunately, about fifth grade, I had to start wearing glasses, so. Yeah, that's kind of when I decided, yeah, I was done flying. I'm like, no, can't fly, but no. So I grew up in Iowa. Did a lot of stupid stuff as a kid there. Even young, we used to jump trains.

Used to do what?

Jump on the trains to go from, like, one part of the town to the other. Because, like, our cousins lived on, like, the south end, we lived on the north end kind of thing. So the trains wouldn't go. They go like 10 miles an hour. They weren't hauling ass. So you just jumped the train. We knew the schedule again. You're looking like a third grade Damn, dude. Yeah, so Cedar, I mean, it's a pretty good sized city, and, you know, go on the other side. Time get late. You knew the train was coming, had to get down the train, otherwise you had to pretty much walk back. It sucked.

Damn.

Sometimes the family give you a ride back, but not always. They're kind of douchebags in a way.

Was your dad in the picture?

No, he left, I think, when I was born or something like that.

Have you met him?

Yeah, I think I finally met him the first time, like, in sixth grade, I think, is what it was.

Holy. What was that like?

And just, you know, it was awkward. It was weird. But, you know, I actually went out. I think it was. Might have been fifth grade. I think I met him the first time. But anyways, I went out there one time, and I was gonna try to stay out there and live, but that didn't turn out very well either.

Why not?

It kind of goes back to, well, growing up, getting violent, kind of being physically abused and stuff like that as a kid. So when I went to my dad, kind of on a different kind of scale, but he kicked me one time because I spent $2 more than I should have. And I said, I'm not gonna live here. I can just go back home. Least I got more of my friends, so. Because at the time, he was in California, so then kind of went back from California back to Colorado. That was in seventh grade.

You were physically abused as a kid? By who?

Three different people.

Adults.

Yeah. Well, no, I'd say one was more of a. It was a. This was the first one. It was in Iowa. I would say kindergarten time frame, but it was a babysitter.

What happened?

God. I don't know if we're gonna detail into it, but she would just kind of just do things, I guess.

Sexual.

Oh yeah.

Holy shit, dude.

And then. Well, the physical side was more from our stepdad. You know, he'd beat the shit out of us sometimes he'd come home drunk and if he had a bad night, pull us out of bed and whip our asses with the. I just remember the belt and it had metal rings in it. So he said he used it because they. With the holes because it'd fly through the air faster.

So just for no reason.

Yep. He just had a bad night or we left dishes in the sink or something like that. So.

Geez, dude. Who was the third?

Well, the other ones was more of a sexual abuse kind of stuff. But you know her. My mom's boyfriends used to pretty much hit all of us, you know, I mean we were unruly for the most part, but.

How many. How many brothers and sisters do you.

One older brother, older sister, and a younger sister.

And they all got it.

Not my younger one. I don't think she really did.

What about the sexual abuse?

I don't think they did. I think it was just me. So now the other one, again, that wasn't Iowa as well. It was again close friend. And then the. The last one was in. In Colorado. I think I was going into fifth grade.

Gez Tig, he had three different sexual abusers by fifth grade.

Yep. Two of them the family didn't know about. They only knew about the last one.

What did they do?

Never got caught. What's that?

What did they do?

So how that guy got caught? We were up in Gold Camp Road in Colorado and actually my cousin was there and the guy, you know, he would bring. He bought his liquor. He was actually. He was a stock car driver or something like that. One of those little short speed track racers. So he was pretty well known. I guess we didn't really know because it was like our second year being in Colorado for the most part and. But anyways, so we were up there and he started playing like a truth or dare game. And he was like, you know, truth or dare? I can't remember exactly what it was, but I think he pulled his pants down. That's when my cousin grabbed me and we took off. You know, people in Colorado know where Gold Camp Road is, you know, we pretty much went from Gold Camp Road and we hiked it back to Manitou Springs and had the cops called. And that's kind of how that went. But come to find out he was doing that to a couple other kids, but they let him off saying there was not enough evidence. I.

Do you mind if we dive into this a little more?

Go ahead.

You know, it's just, I totally wasn't expecting this to come up. In fact, when we just reviewed the interview, he said, oh no, he had a great childhood. And, but, you know, it. I can't believe how common this is in people's childhood. And you know, I just, I found it out through interviewing. I'll bet 50% of the, of the people that have been on here have, have been through physical or sexual abuse as a kid.

I think that's why it's probably more than that. Just ones don't talk about it. You know, like the mil, if you look in the military, a lot of the. I, I bet you majority of them that had a semi rough childhood were probably abused in one way or another.

I mean, and out of that, I mean there's only so many. A lot of times this will come up after the interview or before the interview and they don't want to talk about it because they've made amends with the abuser or whatever. But I mean, so anyways, kind of where I'm going with this is, you know, I've learned like how common this is through interviews, diving into childhood. And it just keeps coming up and it's always, almost always as a shock because it just comes out. And so I started, I hate hearing that. And I started diving into child sex exploitation and child trafficking and abuse and all that stuff and kind of exposing how common it is. It's bad today's society. But you know, what I want to ask is if you don't want to go into detail, that's fine. I totally understand and I'm not going to press you on it. But you know, one of the things that I like to do because we've had so many of these stories come out is talk about, you know, kids that are in that predicament right now as we're sitting here talking.

Yeah.

You know, and fuck, man. Three abusers by the time you're in fifth grade.

Yeah.

How do you get.

I mean, well, I mean for the, I mean the first two, you don't, you don't really think anything's wrong. Honestly. I mean, hella so damn young. I don't know if anything's wrong or not. I think that the first one stopped just because we moved. You know, she was. Again, she was the babysitter. And, you know, again, she. I don't remember exactly why, but, you know, you know, she was babysitters during the day, mainly during the summer. Could have been maybe because school started, she couldn't come over no more. But, you know, for. For me, you know, even I was running for mayor, you going through, and they're teaching you about the. The things that's going on in here, and I'm, like, going, you know, when these things happen to me, none of this stuff was brought up when I was a kid. I remember, you know, going through the problems and stuff and. And for, like, kids that are going through it. My biggest fall, I originally didn't want kids because I didn't want to have to deal with, you know, my own kids going through the same shit that I did. So that's why I waited till 35 when I had enough close calls to say, well, you know, I better have kids if I want my genes to continue.

So, again, that's why I decided, other than that, it's just like, man, society's just up.

Yeah.

And we don't protect our kids. You know, you do have some parents again. They'll see somebody doing something, their kid, they'll go kill them. And then what they got to do, they got to go spend time in court, which I think is horseshit. Somebody's hurting your kids. You know, that's. That's our number one asset in this. In this world is our kids. That's our future. So to allow things like that to happen, that's why I was kind of afraid to have kids, because somebody did that to my kid. You kill him, I'm gonna kill him. So, you know, I talked to my kids about it. You know, they don't know my history, but I always made sure I let them know, you know, that was the biggest thing about the last guy, was he would use, you know, again, you know, what, fourth grade. You're what, eight, nine or something like that? You still don't really know. Ten years again, he was like, you know, if you tell anybody, I'm gonna. I'm gonna kill you. Or I'm gonna kill your brother and sister. Because it was in an apartment, and they. He just lived, like, right upstairs.

And he was a pretty big guy. You know, he was bigger than my mom's boyfriend. So, you know, as a kid, you don't know. So my biggest Thing is telling my kids, if anybody ever tells you to keep a secret, let me know, because you know who I am. I'm gonna kill him. I got no problem telling my kids that. That way they don't have to fear somebody else. Jeez.

So with the. With the sitter, was this like an everyday occurrence or. Or every time she.

Every time. So it was pretty much just during the week.

How. I mean, what would she say to you? Would she say don't tell anybody or kill you?

Yeah, they. They all said that. Don't tell anybody. That's the biggest thing about telling the kids. Anybody tells you, do not tell anybody, there's a problem, especially as a kid. They shouldn't have to have a secret as a kid.

Geez.

So again, that's just parents actually having those conversations with their kids just to make sure. You know, even going back to the whole crap that they're teaching kids in school, forcing that lbgt, all that hidden stuff. Same thing. If anybody says don't tell your. You should be telling your parents because they're. They're doing something that is wrong, period.

Did you wind up telling anybody.

About the first two? No.

And the second guy was upstairs in an apartment.

No, that was the third one.

Who was the second guy?

That was in Iowa. He lived down the street. And I just remember it was that. That would only happen twice. Only. But it was just because I would. I spent the night. He had a kid the same age and stuff like that. And, you know, I. I think they. They worked in the bar with my mom or something like that.

So then the third guy lived above you?

Yeah.

How would that happen?

So he had again take you. They'd say, they're going to take us to the racetrack or something like that. And that's when it would happen. Or again, he said he could watch us or watch me. He never did anything with. When the other kid brother and sister were around, but. So take you to. He had a used car lot right on film. Not Fillmore, Right on Platt. Kind of next, really close to Union. The building's still there, but obviously he's not. But that's where, again, he tried to. That's when things would happen mainly there. So I try to not go. But again, sitting there, sitting there telling you, you know, don't tell your parents or I'm gonna, you know, kill you. Kill them. So you don't tell them why you don't want to go. So sometimes you still had to go, dude. So.

And physical abuse. Hey, man.

Yeah, there's people Who've had worse than me. But that's probably why I was so kind of protective, I guess, and violent growing up.

So who are you protective of?

Just like, other friends. Other people being picked on and bullied and stuff like that.

So did your mom have any idea that this was going on?

No, but I do. So when she finally. Well, when everything kind of did get out in the open, the cops are called and all that. I do remember when. When I think I was. I took off. When was this? It might have been, like, in eighth grade or something by now. You know, as a kid, we don't really have a curfew or anything. And I think I was out. And I remember coming back and I was coming in through the garage. And usually they're up and partying almost all the time. So they're up. I remember. I just. I don't know why they were talking about it, but I know my sister was there talking to my mom about it. And, you know, she was kind of, you know, because I was getting a lot of trouble. And my sister's probably, you know, trying to explain to my mom. I was like, well, it's probably this stuff. He probably needs to go see somebody. I just remember her sitting there saying he needed to quit using this as an excuse and just get over it.

Your mom said that.

Of course they didn't know I was out there. And then I was just like. I just kind of said this, and I just took off and went to my best friend's house and just stayed there for a few days.

Geez. Are you close with your mom now?

No, I really haven't talked to her since, like, 2000, maybe four or five.

Why did you quit talking to her?

That's another story. So got us. Well, a stepdaughter. I was. I'm on my second marriage, but my previous wife and had a stepdaughter. And she was getting. Getting into a lot of trouble and just kind of doing her own thing for the most part. And we were disciplining her and. And came to a point, I think her mom was actually. She was in Kuwait at this time. And so I was kind of at home. And we were getting ready to go back to Kuwait. Cause I think I came back to pick her up to bring her back to Kuwait, something like that. And, well, she was constantly running away and stuff like that. And one time she just kind of disappeared. So we're calling. Call, you know, calling my younger sister, my mom, trying to figure out where she might be calling her friends. Well, got A hold of her friends, and her friends were saying that my sister was picking her up from school every day. This is why her grades were failing. So I called her and said, do you know where she is? And she's like, I haven't heard from her. Yada, yada, yada.

Well, me and my buddy went over there at night and just kind of went around her house, because we just kind of assumed that's probably where she was. Sure enough, we heard her voice in there, and so called the cops. Cops came. And I just remember my mom coming, and she didn't say hi or nothing to eat. You know, me and my buddy at all, you know, the cops just sitting there as we're talking, explaining what's happening. And, you know, she did. My mom just comes walking by really fast, and cops like, who's that? And that's my mom. You know, she's not even saying anything, probably because she knew she was there. She had been gone for, like, a week now. We've been trying to look for her. Well, obviously, cops get involved. Child Protective Service gets involved. They start talking to her. Next thing you know, I'm being looked at for what? I can't think. For molesting stepdaughter.

What?

So they had convinced her that if they. If. If she told them that I was touching her, that they. That she could leave and come live with them. And that's when I was like, you. I'm done talking with you guys. Because that just. That. That does more than what they think they thought it would do, because that. That destroys somebody's life. This is when, again, I was getting ready to actually start working with the Blackwater and all that, doing all my background. You get something like that, you're done.

Jeez. So how would you internalize all the abuse as a kid?

It's just kind of one of those things that you can't control it, you know? One thing I knew wasn't my fault. So I was never. Never had that, never felt anything like that. My thing was just like, where was the protection that you're supposed to have? Where all the adults, you know, especially after, when they let the dude off, and I was just like, this is just up. You know, it was just this when I kind of knew, like, I have. I had to be my own protector. And pretty much from that moment on, I was.

When did you realize it was wrong?

When my cousin yanked me out of the car, I think I kind of knew because I didn't want to go anymore. But again, I didn't Know what to do, what to say to anybody. So I think during that time, I think I knew it was wrong.

But why did your cousin yank you out of the car?

He was two years older than I was, and I think he's just kind of like, you know, like. Yeah, you. Plus, he's kind of part Indian, so he has that mentality.

Damn, man. Damn.

So.

So what did you know? Where I'm kind of going with this is there are a lot of kids out there that go through this. I have no idea how many, but it's an overwhelming amount. And, I mean, one is too many. What advice do you have for kids that are dealing with this right now?

My. Tell some. Find somebody to help you until you do. Honestly, if you don't trust your parents, you know, again, you can call 91 1. You can tell them, find somebody.

Damn, man.

But the lot of the problem is there's so many people that cry a wolf out there that it hurts the. The true people. It really does.

Yeah. Yeah.

So again, don't. Just because somebody's. I guess don't. You don't like them. Don't do that to them either, because it destroys their lives.

Man. I'm sorry I had to go through that.

I mean, I would like to change things, but it also made me who I am, so it's kind of hard to say. Would you?

Yeah.

You know, because I may maybe went a whole nother direction, did something else and so.

Damn. Would you talk about it with your. With your siblings? Any of the abuse, sexual or physical?

No. We talked about getting beat by our. By our stepdads and stuff, and I thought he was an.

Did you ever stand up to him?

No, I know I didn't. I think my brother might have, but then they just beat you harder. That's all they would do. I mean, we're kids or, you know, the size difference, you know, it's amazing. It's not much you can do about it. I know my mom tried to stand up for us a couple times, but I know he put her in the hospital a few times, throwing down the stairs and all that stuff, you know, separating her shoulder and all that.

Man, you witnessed all that. That's heavy stuff, dude.

Yeah. Foster homes ain't that great either. Same. Same thing. They're very abusive.

You've been in foster homes?

Yeah.

How did you wind up in a foster.

Mainly, I think the babysitter once left us, as when I was in first grade. Around first grade. And we were. Again, we were kids, man. We're Intense, you know, we know, no discipline, no supervision. And she, she couldn't deal with us no more, so she called the cops. My mom again, she was, she was at the bar. Nobody get a hold of her. So the cops came and got us foster home for about a week for that one again, that they were just, again, kind of same thing. Very, very abusive physically. And then the second one was physically and sexually again. So the worst one though, that one, my mom was in the hospital. I don't remember exactly what for, but I remember them walking us there so we could see her from the hospital room, which was kind of cool, I guess as a kid walking back, I didn't have any shoes and I stubbed my toe and I ripped it open pretty good. It was pretty gnarly. Screaming, crying, couldn't walk. So they were nice at that time. But then we got into the house, they beat the shit out of me because I was crying.

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Well again, I think I already kind of had it from the recruiting station, you know, just kind of seeing them, you know, compared to my own family life, seeing how they portrayed themselves I guess.

Yeah.

And that's kind of what I wanted but again how I kept one to do it from pretty much, you know, you're looking like second, third grade time frame this is going on and then still wanting to do it, you know all through all the other stuff I think I just always wanted, you know I did like a lot of reports in high school on Vietnam War and stuff like that. Did a lot of look into that, how they fought and stuff and it just always intrigued me.

Did you. I mean what I'm just. What's your relationship like with your dad now? Is it non existent?

No, he. So he actually was. He was. He Lived with me for a long time and he was actually watching, watching one of our house when we were overseas doing a lot of contract work and stuff like that. But then I got divorced in 2023 and then he's kind of out on his own now. So pretty much about like 2006 till 2023 he lived with us. So I had a, you know, property out down in Pueblo County. Had a, you know, in law house. That's kind of where he stayed. So he kind of watched, you know, with the cattle and stuff like that while I was gone. And you know, so he did some help around the house or around the property.

How do you think that abuse has affected if it has your adulthood?

I'm pretty sure it has in one way or another.

I mean, I don't see how it couldn't.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I have that. My wife would probably say the romantic lovey lovey thing, pretty rough on the edges for the most part. But definitely don't, you know, trust really a whole lot of trust in anybody. Not really, you know, so I mean I trust her, my kids, but you know, just been so in betrayal. It's been there forever. You know, even one of my other, my, let's say the second stepdad, he. So when you're a kid, you get a job, you can't open a bank account. You have to have a co signer. So he was a co signer on the account. And I started work when I was like fifth when he first, when he could like 15 or 14. And so I was just saving up money. You know, I'm making a lot of money, but I was saving up. I think I was supposed to have like four to six thousand dollars in the account. And I was probably the only kid in ninth grade that had a car. But I went to go because the battery died. So I went to go buy a battery and I had.

And I was kept getting denied. So I called the bank. There was no money in it. He stole all my money.

Damn, dude.

So my boss actually he would just cash my checks for me and just give me cash. I. I quit my bank accounts until I could actually get my own account.

What are your relationships like with the rest of your siblings?

We talk here and there, but they don't. My like I don't talk to my younger sister. She was part of the whole problem with the stepdaughter. My older one, she lives in Ohio. And then my brother, he works for the post office, so he's always working. It's kind of like somebody in the military. You just never see him. But, you know, just kind of like with Oz and Tantanto, we just kind of talk every now and then. Hit each other up.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah. Do you guys talk about what happened nowadays?

No. I think we did once, me and my brother, when we were drunk. It's usually when you're drinking, talk about it.

Man, I hate hearing this.

Didn't expect that, did you? So.

Not at all. Not at all. But I'm glad we went there. So thank you again.

My thing is so used to kind of keep almost everything to myself. But you always hear like, you know, you got to tell your story because you know somebody else is probably going through it. They're going through something worse. They don't know how to deal with it. Don't know what to do. Especially with kids.

Yeah.

You know, so my biggest thing, you know, my best thing to do is tell it because more kids might hear it because of who I am and more again, likely to finally say something is happening and it shouldn't be happening. So it's really. It's better for them. I mean, for me, healing, it doesn't really heal me at all. It's just. It is what it is. There ain't nothing I can do about it. Can't change it. I dealt with it. It is what it is again. But it's for me, letting kids know or even adults know. Like, again, it's not your fault. At least I. I did know that growing up. I knew it wasn't my fault. But talk about it. Get it out. Otherwise, that. That demon is just going to destroy you. And for kids, find somebody to protect you. Talk, tell somebody. It's happening. There's nothing wrong with you. It ain't, you know, just make it in. Stop it. By telling somebody.

What were your grandparents like?

My. My grand.

It's a generational thing. That's what I'm getting at.

I don't think so. I mean, I didn't really. I mean, my Grandpa, World War II vet, my grandma, they were just stubborn, stubborn people. My. That's. On my mom's side, I didn't really know my grandma. On my dad's side, I knew my grandpa. He was a. He was a Christian guy the whole time, you know, that I've known him or knew him. My grandpa, he was just a stubborn old guy, you know, just a mean, grumpy guy.

Sounds like my grandpa.

Yeah. This dude. Oh, my God, that. I don't know how he lived as long as he did either. He was in so many accidents, he fell down. So he lit. He worked at Quaker in Iowa. He fell down a elevator shaft. Down, like, all the pipes down below, I think, like, four stories. Lived, walked out. They got in a major car crash again. Metal just wrapped around him. Lived, walked out. He's just. This dude would not die. I remember when I stayed them one, one summer. What was it? So I was listening to. I think I wanted to. I was watching a TV show. He wanted to listen to music. So he would turn his up. I would turn the TV up. He would. He would tell my grandma, go tell that little. I could hear him go tell that little to turn that off and get outside. He was. But he was. I mean, he was a. He was a happy guy. But no, I mean, that's never. They were just kind of mean. They were never abusive. They're just, you know, discipline, I would say.

Old school.

Yeah, just old school.

You know, the reason I was bringing that up is, you know, you see a lot of families, if that's what you want to call it, but, you know, this gets carried on from generation to generation to generation. It becomes like a generational curse.

Yeah.

In fact, I got somebody on my team who's been through a lot of that kind of stuff. Sounds like a very similar situation. And so, you know what I want to ask. And I always commend him because I know where he came from and, you know, I guess I can't. I can't say I know where he came from and know what it's like to go through that, because I didn't. I didn't. I was fortunate I didn't have to go through that. But I always tell him how proud of him I am that. That he broke the curse.

Yeah.

And that his kids are. His kid is.

Is.

Is doing awesome and won't have to experience any of that.

I think for a lot of people that do it, that's their. A lot of their fear, I think.

So what I want to ask is. And that's why I was asking about your brothers and sisters, too, to see if they were able to break that. And so with you, I just want to ask, you know, what. What does it feel like to. To break that in the. In the family. L. Lineage?

I mean, knowing my kids, it feels great knowing my kids have to go through that. I mean, it's. It's a. It's. It's something that would. I'm glad they never have to experience. But a lot of times when you do break it, if you never talk to them about it. They can come right back. So I think that's. That's all it's. It sucks to have to talk about it, but talking to your kids about it, even if you. Because you don't know if they're going through it or not, I guarantee my mom had no idea, obviously. So I think having those conversations with your kids and letting them know, like, hey, people shouldn't be touching you here, touching there. And if they say, don't tell anybody, you better tell somebody, regardless if they threaten your life or someone else's life, because they can't do nothing to you. I guarantee it. They can't. It's just an empty threat. Especially knowing what I know now, man.

Scary, man. Scary.

Yeah. Cause the moment law enforcement gets involved again, the scene, it's not a Hollywood movie, they're done. I mean, they may get away with it, but they're gonna. You're gonna be pulled away from that environment completely.

Yeah.

So either way, you're still protected.

Yep. Man. Well, once again, man, I just thank you for going into that because I think it's important to talk about, you know, for the. For the upcoming generations. And it seems to be happening more and more and more as time guns goes on, or at least it's exposed a lot more.

And, well, it goes back to the. Like I was saying, the accountability, they think people cannot be. There's no rehab for that. They should never see daylight ever again when they do that. Yeah, that's the problem.

I'm with you. So let's get into the military stuff. When did you join?

So I decided to join the Marine Corps when I saw Full Metal Jacket. I think I was, what, 89 or something like that when that popped out? So I knew I was going to join. I still kind of was going to do the army, but being the hoodlum that I was, I saw that. I was like, you know, I need more of that. I knew it. So I'm talking about the boot camp scene, not the after. I actually. I don't really watch the whole combat part. I just like the boot camp, and it's awesome. Maybe I'll see if I can find it, but I got a picture of my kid. Now I still watch it. That was downstairs watching it, and it just kind of started. My son literally stood there during the whole entire boot camp part of the movie and was just watching. Then I stopped it just before Gomer freaking whacked himself. So I was like, okay, you know, how'd you like it? He said, that was cool. Like, see? Oh. So I end up doing the delayed entry program. In the Marine Corps. You don't go to boot camp, but it does kind of help towards promotion.

So I did a. You kind of sign a thing saying you're gonna do it. You have to go through, like, the weekend stuff. So that kind of helped me stay out of trouble. And then, yeah, then November of 95, I went to boot camp. And. And I'm gonna tell anybody if. If you cherish holidays, don't go to boot camp during holidays. It'll ruin it for you. I used to love Christmas. Now it's just kind of like our Christmas tree was a. Was a red light, red lens, flashlight in the tree. Nice. And we had a single old Christmas tree to it. So boot camp was. I thought it was easy, man. I mean, if you're physically fit it. To me, it was. It was a cakewalk. I mean, I didn't mind getting yelled at. I got slammed a few times, but I just giggle just like, this is awesome.

What did it feel like to get the hell out of your family predicament?

So I kind of left when I was in ninth grade. I moved in with my best friend's girlfriend's parents. So I was actually, I was. When I got my job after my dad, my stepdad, stole that crap from me, I kind of just said, I'm done, and I left. Moved in with a stripper when I was 16.

What?

Yeah.

And how did you meet a stripper at 16?

One of my mom's friends.

Was your mom a stripper?

No. I don't know how they met. I think it was over drugs.

Holy.

So moved in there with them and then with her, and it was all normal at first, and then it turned out to more of a relationship. But then I end up moving out and actually moved into the back of the restaurant that I was working at. So I had a bed back there, and I'll just go there and I'd sleep. Did that for a while. And then. Then I moved in with my best friend's parents, his girlfriend's parents.

So you. You met a stripper who is a friend of your mom's and moved in with her?

Yeah, she tried to. Yeah, she called the cops on her and tried to get her for all kinds of stuff, but again, at the. Like, statutory rape is what it was. But nothing was actually happening at that time. Anyways. I just wanted to get the hell out of that place, you know, she had already had drug raids done on her and stuff like that. So I just had to get out of there. So. Yeah.

How old was a stripper?

24.

And this turned into a relationship?

Yeah.

I mean, what it. What's going on in the house that you're living in when you're living with a stripper?

What. What do you mean?

I mean, is it like, what the hell was happening? They come home and there's a party every night or.

No, actually she didn't throw any parties in her house at all. In the apartment. She never had any. We. They're always across the. Across the hall. So you just go over there, hang out with those guys? More than anything.

Geez, dude.

Yeah, but no, I mean, it was. Again, it was just a good way to get out. My. Actually one of my. My best friend ended up moving in there too, as well. For a while. Yeah, it was a week. Again, weird upbringing.

But why did you leave there?

It just. Just wasn't very good, you know, it's kind of. I don't really know how to explain it, but it just kind of. I think it was more of the relationship side of it where again, you couldn't go out and she was going out kind of a thing. And then. Then I know she was. She had drugs again. I. I just hated the drugs scene just because of my parents. So I was like, I'll screw this. And I moved out. My boss again, he said, you can go stay back here in the storage area. I mean, put your bed. Put us out of bed, A dresser, everything back there, man. I'd just take a shower at school until I moved in with my best friend's parents. And then it was really jacked up. And my junior year and I was playing football, you know, staying with them. I said I had a third degree separation on my shoulder and I had to have surgery. Well, it came to a point where they actually had to go and yell at my mom because obviously they don't really have custody over me. So she had to sign the paperwork for me to actually get the surgery done.

So here I am, I have my bones sticking up like this for about three months and I'm in a sling. And I finally got the surgery done. But yeah, they had to force her to sign the paperwork for me to get the surgery.

How the hell did you find Christianity through all of that?

I think it started as a kid. We always went to church and stuff like that, so. And I always liked the music. It was just weird.

All this is going on and you guys are going to church.

My parents. Not really. Was mainly my. My Grandma. God, I can't remember. And then some other people in the family, some of the older ones, they would like take us to church and stuff like that. So we did a. We're on welfare. So like, if we wanted Christmas, Thanksgiving, all that stuff we always had, we always went to the church to go get food, go get pretty presence and stuff like that. See Santa Claus, it was always at the church. That's where we got stuff from. So.

Damn T.

But you know, I always believed in. In God and Jesus always didn't really understand it. Got baptized as a kid. The second time I did it, I did it because of a girl.

Man. I'm just. Whatever it's worth, man, I'm just really proud of you and getting out of that. I mean, a lot of people never make it out of that.

And I think I had one. So getting. Getting a lot of trouble. I had to go see counselors and crap. I remember my mom was inside. This is before they had the. The white noise machine outside the counselor's office. It was some. It was. I can't. I remember the office building was. It was on academy. I think I remember exactly which building it was, but it was actually right next to the recruiting. The marine recruiting station I ended up going to. And. But I was sitting outside the office. You know, my brother, my sister, we're all always in trouble. So again, it was just that family, you know, just getting in trouble constantly. I won't tell their stories, but I was there. And I remember, you know, mom talking about us, and really not in a good way, but. And then the counselor just said, you know, talking about me. He's like, you know, he's going to end up just like them. He's going to be in jail. He's not going to amount to anything. And that's what. I just kind of sat there, heard that, and I got up and I left. I never went back there.

But I was like, fuck you. You can tell me who I am and what I'm going to do. So that was probably part of the motivation. But I still got in trouble. But I also. I also kind of knew that fine line of what you could do and what you shouldn't do, do.

So how do you think you learned that?

Just. Just from other people around you, what kind of, you know, the crap they got into, you know, what would happen to them. So I just learned, like you, you can only push things so far. Like, I never like, got into, you know, robberies and stuff like that. You know, this. I don't Know why? This just popped in my head. So in Iowa, when. Just when it was before I got into first grade, we had moved to this new house from the other one that I had the babysitter at. I would sneak out, like, at midnight before first grade. And I learned how to first grade before first grade. And we lived next to a college, so a bunch of, you know, apartments and stuff like that. A lot of people didn't lock their cars back then. So I opened a car. I steal all the change. I did this for a while, and probably, I think it was about the second month because I wasn't smart enough. I'd probably do it like, you know, almost like every weekend. Like every Sunday, I think, is what it was. Or something like that. I, like, was consistent.

Well, these college kids decided to hold a sting on me. I think they caught me, like, at 3 in the morning.

What do you do to a pre first grader that's, oh, they can change out of your car.

Oh, my God. So they. They grabbed me, right? I'm just like. I'm just a little. I'm just like, let me go. I'm cussing up a storm and this and that.

What are you, like six?

Oh, yeah, probably five, dude. And they're just like, what the hell are you? Then one in here, you know, Tell us the truth. Are you the one stealing it? We already called the cops and. And, like, you know, we'll help you out. I'm like, yeah, I've been the one doing it. It's like, why are you doing it? Well, I want to eat. Because again, we. A lot of times we didn't. That was. Usually we go to the grocery store and still instill food from the produce section. You know, we got kicked out of Hy Vee a lot just because we sit there and eat. At least I did. Especially the strawberries were good. But then they're just looking at, like, are you serious? Like, yeah, just, you know, usually I just go buy food with it. So the cops got there, they said, oh, no, he wasn't. He. They told him that I was out wandering around. They didn't tell me. That's what they told me. Don't ever do this again. And I didn't.

Damn Tig.

But no, the cops kept me. They brought me back to the house, and I learned. I learned a lie pretty good. My mom and the stepdad, like, what the hell are you doing? What's going on? I just. I just started wanting to go for a walk. So I got my ass beat. But not as bad. Just a couple spankings, couple slaps, not the normal beating. So it wasn't too bad. I forgot what I was talking about before that. But no, I just, I don't know, just that just kind of made me talk. Oh yeah. So I didn't like, it wasn't no grand theft auto. I didn't do no armed robberies. Didn't, you know, kind of quit stealing after I left Iowa. You know, we used to break into people's houses and garages and steal stuff, but kind of again, went to Colorado, stopped doing that stuff. Mainly for me, it was just a lot of fights. That was really, it was about the only biggest thing I was because once I, especially when I started working, I was more about making money than doing anything else. I mean, hell, I was 14. I had a Mustang too.

I bought for 300 bucks. The only thing I had to do is put new tires on it and traded that and got a 84 Blazer. You know, it's always, you know, from a kid I was working, I was always trying to make money. You know, even mowing lawns, I always try to figure out to make money. Usually that's how you bought, bought your toys, especially GI Joe's. So I always worked for everything that I had. Nothing was really given, even during Christmas and all that crap.

Damn, man. So you are surviving from day, very early age. Geez. All right, let's go back to the Marine Corps.

Yeah. So went to boot camp again. It was, it was fun. I enjoyed it. It wasn't to me, it wasn't hard. But we had 84 recruits and only two drill instructors. So we got away with everything. I mean, normally it wasn't, wouldn't be that way. It would normally be like 50. But Bill Clinton had a shutdown during that time, so everybody got backlogged. So anyways, got in there. Want to do infantry. It was just a bullet catcher. Picked up rank pretty fast because again, I just knew what I wanted to do. I, I enjoyed that stuff.

You excelled at this.

Yeah. You know, became an infantry squad leader, you know, became sergeant within like three years. So I was a squad leader within two years.

So what was it like for you? I mean, let me rephrase that. How close were you with your guys in the Marine Corps?

I think for the most part we were fairly close. I mean, obviously you had to separate the rank for the most part. You know, you kind of did kind of den it sometimes. I, I, I think it's more hurtful to a unit than it is Helpful. But a lot of guys can't keep that separation of the rank you get too buddy, buddy. And that's where they want that because they're like, I don't really gotta listen to him. He's my best bud. Even though he's your squad leader.

Yeah.

So that's kind of the separation. But the most part I think, you know, we'd always hang out, we'd do things what we could. But my biggest thing, you know, was getting doing a lot of things I did in school. The wars and all that. Reading it with a lot of the problem was was the guys, the junior guys didn't know what to do if the squad leader got whacked or the platoon sergeant got whacked. So when I went in, my goal was to make sure like my team leaders knew what a platoon sergeant's job was. So they always knew like ranks above them. And I told them, you, you got to tell your guys what your job is and what my job is kind of thing. Because again, war happens, people die. If you don't know how to handle things and move step up, it makes you might not know everything, but it starts guiding them in the right direction. So I always made sure you know that again, they knew other people's jobs. Even radio. So even on the Marine Corps we saw a radio like maybe once in four years. Of course that was back in the 90s.

Now I think everyone has a radio but me. Being a leader, just making sure that your juniors are capable of doing your job and somebody else's job above you. That's what a leader does. It doesn't make. Just doesn't. You don't stand there and just be like, oh, I'm the all powerful. Like no, they need to be able to step up and take your spot if something happens. So I enjoyed it. I mean it was a lot of fun. I've. They kind of made me the remedial guy because I was kind of. I was an. It wasn't nice, but so like all the guys who had fell pt I was the one they send to in the whole platoon. It was fun.

What did the stability feel like? I mean coming from an environment like that into.

Oh, the consistency was awesome. I enjoyed was way better. So I mean I was in 29 palms, so that part kind of sucked. But I didn't really. It doesn't bother me too much because I already had a vehicle. If you didn't have a vehicle, it really sucked. So I don't know if you know where 29 palms is. But it's, it's a miserable base. But training, been there. Training is awesome. You can't get any more better training. Everything's live fire.

Nice.

Yeah. So a lot of, well, a lot of guys that come from like Pendleton and other locations, they end up whacking other guys because they're not used to adjusting fire. Again, it's all live fire. So, you know, it was cool. Be able to call, you know, mortars. We had to actually. I got to call on a Cobra one time. You usually don't get to do that as a squad leader.

Yeah.

But out there it's different. It was really cool.

Did you deploy with the Marine Corps?

No, we just did. I just did deployments while I did, but not to combat. I did Okinawa, Thailand, Tinian and Guam. That was it. And that was just all peacetime stuff.

How long were you in the Marine Corps?

Four years.

Four years?

Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna re up and I was going to do MSG duty. I didn't want to do boot camp crap. I didn't want to be a drill instructor because even though it was fun, I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do recruiting duty because I would, I would come home and I would do recruiting duty. So you can stay home longer. And so I want to do MSG duty. Well, I went, went to the school and about a month into it, then you go in because you do all the psych eval stuff. And then they're looking everything over. It's a three month school go down, I have my interview and you know, they're bringing up things, you know, I again, protecting people for the most part. Well, I put one kid in the hospital for about three days and I think it was my junior year or senior year, but. And they asked me, okay, what happened? I told them, well, the guy punched a kid in a wheelchair and you know, he was like some like number one wrestler or something in Colorado at the time. And you know, nobody wanted to step up to him.

But my is, I'm just like, no, no, no, he's going to hit a kid in a wheelchair, you know. And I'm named. The kid's name was Richie. You know, he's kind of like a. He couldn't really move himself either. You know, he kind of could and stuff. So even from junior high, I'd push him around to his classrooms. If I saw him, anybody picked on him, I would thump him. Nobody really picked on him like that, but like this guy did. And so my buddy's like, dude, there's no way this guy punched him. And he's like, he's right over there. So you go ask him if he says something, I'm gonna floor him. And I remember my buddy Josh asked him, hey, I heard you punch Richie in the chest. And he started laughing. Hell, yeah, I did. And I was blacked out. Yeah. And I guess they. For what? They said it took 10 teachers to pull me off of them.

Good for you.

So they brought that up, and then they brought up my childhood thing with the. With the guy molesting me. So they actually used that against me to kick me out of the MSG school.

Are you serious?

That's what I was like. That's. That. That's when I said this. I'm leaving the core.

Holy. Why the would they use that against you?

I have no idea.

How did they find out about it?

Because it was in the police records. Because it's. Even though it's your. Your kid, but they. They can look it all the way back.

Man.

Yep.

So you felt betrayed again and you got out.

Yep. Then once she. Well, once she knew, I. Well, that. That kicked me out because what they said, they said, you need to go see a shrink and get this dealt with before you can go over there. I'm like, deal with what? It's not my problem. It's not my fault. And they. I said this. So then I got back to my unit. My ex found out. She got a hold of me, and then when I was in Okanawa, and then I came back, and we got married.

Man. So you left all that stability for what felt like a betrayal again. And then what did you do from there?

Well, I got out when it. She got stationed in Washington. She was in the army. She had joined. And so I was stationed in Washington. I tried to be. I tried to do the whole dependent thing, try it for about two months. I couldn't, dude. I had to work. I was there. I was like, man, I'm going to subway. I got to go do something. And finally, I just went into heating, air conditioning. Actually started off as a gas piper, so just, you know, doing gas lines and stuff like that. And then 9, 11 hit. I remember, you know, getting ready to go to work and watching, you know, hearing about the first plane and watching the second plane. I just looked. Looked at her, said, we're going to war. This is an attack. And so I told the. I called my boss or my boss said, hey, I'm not coming in. I'm going to the recruiting Station. So went through recruiting, of course they were pissed. They're like, oh, this ain't no big deal. It's like, you guys no idea what's going on, do you? So I went there and, you know, they're talking, talking with them, and they just kind of look at me.

I already had a 10 disability rating. They're like, we ain't gonna need you. We don't need no broken. I don't. I get it. They're like, we got. We don't need no broke dick. We're gonna have so many people join us. I was like, man, it's up. So look, whatever went back. And she ended up getting orders to go to Kuwait, move back to Colorado. This I didn't really know about contracting yet. So I actually started going to school for heating and air conditioning. The money was good. I mean, I was making between five to a thousand bucks a day, so really wasn't money. Reason why I did the job, but just hated it. I mean, it was. I just felt like something was missing. I'd just be pissed off every day at work. Like, you work at your own pace, so it ain't like I had so many things, because you got paid by the job. Whatever you got done is what you got paid for. So when she was over there, she found out about contracting, and that's when. And then my. I. She came back in 2003, I think early, but I still had to finish my school, still wanted to finish it.

And then she went, and then I stayed. And once I graduated, I went over in July 2003 to Kuwait for my first contracting. And I was only making 13 bucks an hour.

What was the first contract?

Doing the gate guard stuff for Camp Doha. I got a lot of trouble there, too.

What kind of trouble?

Well, you'd have guys coming back. You'd have dudes coming from Kuwait or from Iraq, you know, from the combat zone. You know, you could see their combat units. They're coming down just for, like, R and R. Well, if you didn't have some kind of thing, piece of paper from some colonel or something saying, you know, you're allowed to come on the base, they wouldn't let you on. So I'm just like, you know, these dudes are driving, you know, from there to here. I'm like. And you see your highest ranking individuals here, and I tell them what's going on. I just let them on. I just say, you know, you're gonna have a big issue getting off if you don't get this. They probably won't let you off, but.

Have a good time.

And I was like, just please do me a favor. Just don't tell them who let you on because I won't be able to do it for anybody else. Well, they finally figured it out.

Right on man.

So, so they put me up, they took me off gate, put me interior stuff and it was just like, like whatever. But to me it was just like these, these are coming. You guys are here in Kuwait. You can go out in town at the freaking mall and hang out. These guys are coming from a combat zone. You can't let them come here and hang out. Do some R and R for a day. Like screw that.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So where do you go from there?

That's when you started looking at the contracts that are going on again. You're looking 03 to 04. You know, that's when Blackwater really blew up with the, the four guys who got dragged and hung on the bridge and stuff like that. So trying to find companies that were reliable contract companies because there are so many fly by night ones. I mean ones that would actually they do drive bys on military bases. I don't know if you heard about that stuff. Yeah. Some of these contracts, I mean Americans doing, it's like what are you guys doing? So what do you mean drive by? Yeah, like going by military and shooting at them.

Are you serious? When the hell was this happening?

Oh like the 04,05 like really? The wild west stuff.

Holy.

Yeah, it was stupid, man. So a lot of it's just like. So you had the. Be careful. There's one that I know a couple of the guys that I was doing security with. One of them was named Little. He actually ended up going with Blackwater but. But he was going to go in there and do security work and I was just like dude, you're not, you don't have enough training for that. You know you, you going from an admin guy in the army to doing PSD work over there and only going to do give you a two week train up now him and his own team. I'm getting whacked like a month in.

Damn.

But it was some of the other ones. Again they're paying you like 90 grand like for a month, two months at a time. But some of them, they're not even going over the real guns. They're going like broomsticks painted as guns and all kinds. So you had to be very careful.

Yeah, I remember. I mean I fell into one of those. Not quite that that bad but I Remember, my first contract was this one with Armor Group. Did you ever hear Armor Group? Was that uk? Yeah, I lasted about two weeks there, and I was like, get me the out of here now. And. And then. And. And then I wound up getting picked up for, you know, for the OGA program. But. But Gez, dude.

Yeah. So end up going with Blackwater. Put my resume in just before my. Because I could have left earlier. I mean, a lot of guys, they would break their contract. But again, to me, you sign up for something, you finish it. So I just finished it out, went home, went to the training. And after July, so sometime after July four or something like that, I went to bw, did it. Didn't know who I was going to be working for. You know, you just. Blackwaters picks you up, you know, and then did the training, and next thing you know, I'm overseas doing work.

What contract was this?

This agency?

This was. This was grs.

No, cobra.

Get cobra.

So I didn't know about GRS at the time, because you're supposed to. So, yeah, so went there, and then they kind of. They were talking about it, you know, like, I was like, that was this GRS thing. They're like, oh, you know, they're doing, like, the. The mobile stuff. Okay. So I get over to Afghanistan, and that's when, you know, you start learning things and, you know, knowing what's going on. And I actually end up getting airport duty. Can't really see a whole lot what's going out on out there, but there's some fun transfers going on. But. So we actually got. It was a benefit to me. So we would actually do some escorts for some of the agency personnel as cobras, even though you're not supposed to, because they're. They're going. We're going out the airport. So they would just kind of jump in with us. We do. You know, we still had to do the SDRs there and back and stuff like that. So I got to know the town as a cobra. Normally, those guys don't see anything, but to and from the airport. Well, when somebody says, you can't do something, I'm gonna say, well, I'll prove you wrong.

So every time I would come, I'd go to the. The TL for the grs. Here's my resume. This is my background. It's like, dude, you have to be eight years sf. Like, I can do better. I can do what you guys can do. So 07, they finally said, all right, go and do it. Because I got tired of. I mean, I was coming all the time. I was like, I can drive around, right? So I mean but I had in the Marine Corps I went to urban warfare. So I was an urban warfare instructor and stuff like that. That's like my highest speed thing I did. And I was the assault climber. So you'd set up the lanes for the battalions and climb cliffs and stuff like that at night. So I had, you know, some specialized but you know, nothing like SF guys. But anyways, so we went to Blackwater did I think at the time it was like a four month train up. Yeah, for real quick.

I just want to, I just want to educate the audience. So when we're talking about back in those days, I don't might still be like this. There was the Cobra contract and the capo contract. Are they the under the OGA umbrella other government agency which is the CIA contract. And so the Cobra sector is basically static security base. You're assigned to a specific base and you do all the perimeter and internals for that specific location. And with that being said before we move on to the capo program, let's take a quick break. Sleep is one of the most important parts of my health, both mentally and physically. Since getting my Helix mattress, I've noticed a huge difference. Before I never felt fully rested. Now I'm sleeping through the night and waking up refreshed and it's made a real impact on my life. If you're looking to upgrade the quality of your sleep, now is a great time to try a Helix mattress. Helix is the award winning mattress brand and it's recommended by many for improving sleep. Helix is made to fit your body type and your sleep position and they can recommend which mattress will work best for you.

And right now you can save when you decide to buy your own Helix mattress with this offer for my listeners, go to helixsleep.com SRS for 25% off sitewide. That's helixsleep.com SRS For 25% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. Helixsleep.com SRS the most important action you can take today is to help protect your family's future from cybercriminals and online predators. And Bunker, that's B u n k R can help you do just that. Bunker was developed by experts with 25 years of experience catching criminals and fighting cybercrime. They created Bunker to help protect their own families and now they're sharing it with you. Bunker even offers a family plan with the family plan. You get a private messenger to share messages, photos and files with your spouse and children, connecting only with people you approve. No spam, no surveillance, no imposters, ever. You also get a password manager to help safeguard your family's online accounts, including financial, shopping, streaming and social media. You even get a vault to help securely store important documents like photos, IDs, birth certificates and passports. Visit their website, Bunker Life SRS and use code SRS for 25% off your family plan today.

That's b u n k r.life srs and use code SRS for 25% off your family plan today. That's B u n k r.life/srs and use code SRS for 25% off your family plan today. All right, Tig, we're back from the break. We're getting ready. You just got picked up for the capo program. The mobile. Mobile program it at the agency.

So it wasn't, it wasn't really smooth because this was like 07 and I had Lasik done when I was in 2002 because my eyesight was like really good, like 2015 vision. So we start going through it, start doing all the try. I can't remember exactly the how did it. The flow. But I think we did like the house stuff with the qualification at the last week of it like and everything else like the shooting. So I was doing really good and all that was passing. You know, the hardest one, I don't know if you remember was the. The 25 yard shot, concealed, four seconds, two shots. That was a kind of a pain. I was never really good with pistol, but I was good enough to pass.

Dude, I'm just. I just want to hear your whole training experience because. And I don't want to diminish anything that you've done or any conventional guys at all. But I mean I came out of the SEAL teams and I had maybe about a year ish break where I tried to do some business stuff and failed miserably and then wound up at that shitty armor group one and then wound up getting picked up. But I thought that that training package, I think, I think it was about a month long then. Yeah, it was tough right around the same time frame because I left in 06. So it was 07, 08 maybe that I got in there.

Yeah.

And that was tough. Man, those drills walls were stiff.

Yeah. And the timing, Holy crap.

Working with new people, working with other branches that did things different. I mean that was, that was challenging coming from where I came from with all that training. And so for you, I mean, I mean, what did you think of that?

I mean for me it was I guess maybe just being molded by the court, you just kind of adapt and just do it. Is this how they want it done? I just do it that way. Whatever. Because I think even though like, even that night, I think even like Roan and Jack kind of went back to their SEAL stuff for the most, just kind of like because they were moving on the side of me going down, it was a little bit different than we were. But I just started kind of flowing with them, they started flowing with me and then they kind of broke off and did their thing together, which again I still think is what Rome was. 20 years seal. So I think you're still going to go back to some of that stuff, but you still have, I think since, you know, the training of it is so long, you all have a base to fall back on so you kind of have an idea what the guys to the left and right are going to do. So I think that's what helpful. But you know, me doing like the vehicles and stuff like that, I mean that was all new.

But you know who Jake Banta is? Yeah, so I met him doing Cobra. So I had a little bit of insight on a lot of what GRS was doing the training wise. So he kind of told me, okay, if you're going to go do this here, here, take this, go practice this stuff. So I had 40 acres, I had more gun range, so I did a lot of practicing back. You know, you got paid pretty good, but ammo is a lot cheaper than too so I had a bunch of ammo. I was just training every day, getting my speed up, getting all that, doing my pistols. So when I went there I already had an. I pretty much knew what they were going to do except for vehicles. CQB I wasn't worried about because you know that was a month long train up I did just in the Marine Corps for cqb. So that for me that was easy. Just, I just couldn't shoot everybody like I did in the Marine Corps. So you know, then the, the hooded box drill, that was freaking epic. Yeah, that was fun. I did enjoy that part.

Yeah, I thought that that was a really good exercise.

That was, that was, that was.

What did you find to be the most challenging?

I think dealing with the staffers.

Other than that, I mean the training.

Just trying to remember all the, all the stuff so fast and you know, just the, the wording on, you know, the vehicles, you know, just getting that knowing what to do, how to protect the package and stuff like that, that was kind of the hardest stuff because a lot of that stuff kept changing from class to class for the most part, you know, tie them to. You don't tie to them, keep, you know. And then the. The dealer thing was kind of a pain in the ass.

Yeah.

But it is what it is. So we get to the final and my eyes start going bad. Like I woke up and I couldn't like see that glass, right. That. The. Your water bottle right there. Oh, holy crap. So I went into the eye doctor. I paid like 500 bucks to get a prescription right away so I could see. So I went through it, got it going. Next morning changed. So every day I had to keep going back to the eye doctor to pass. And then finally my eyes, I don't know, about a month later, finally settled down. And so I kind of fought with that all the way up through. Even through Benghazi, my eyeballs. But I could always made sure I could see and stuff like that. So I end up getting like the hard, soft contact lenses and that really. So I work contacts over there quite a bit. But it was that dude that week. I don't know what. What was going on, but come to find out and sorry. And I think it was 2017, about three months before I had to have a transplants in my eyes. I had cornucosis.

What is that?

Deterioration of your cornea. So I had to get for intacts. And there was something else. I forgot exactly what it was, but. So they take these two plastic things and they reshape your eye. So both my eyes got these plastic things in them. And then they put. Anyway they put some other drop in there. Hardens up your lens and stuff like that Again. Eyes just kept fluctuating. And finally my right eye really started getting bad again. And they went in. My right eye is an artificial lens.

Damn.

So the fact that I could even still see, even the eye doctor, you know, they put. I guess they're doing like, they did a whole study on me in. In the eye doctor school now. In the eye doctor school, I had like School of optometry. That one. I had like seven different surgeries on them.

So how many people made it through your vetting? Do you remember? Or was it tdc?

It was. It was tdc. I think Only one person didn't pass.

No.

Yeah.

Damn. When I went through, there was only about three. Three or four of us that made it through.

Yeah.

And everybody else failed.

It was. It wasn't Very bad. I think it was only like five of us, anyways.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Wow.

But so I almost failed because they gave me a mask where I couldn't wear my glasses. So when I was going in, they had the. They had the package dressed almost exactly like the Aggressor. So I went in the room I could. I was a 50. 50 shot, and I ended up shooting the package. And. But I remember, luckily the other guys backed me up and they said he. He kept asking you guys for a mask for his glasses. So they didn't send me home. I had to go back through it one more time. So I got one more chance to go through it, and they said, you better make it 100% clean, man. Talk about tents, dude.

Yeah.

Like, now the eyes are just on me.

Yeah.

So. But I ended up making it through clean. And it was a. They, they. They ran me through the ringer on those, man, because again, they're like, you can't shoot the package.

Yeah.

I mean, there's no second chance. You're done.

Yeah, that's. I think you're the only person I heard that got a second chance at that.

Who was it? I want to see? I think it was Dusty was doing the train up.

I think I remember him.

So. Yeah. Yeah. He was running me the. What? I was like, dude. And they're. All the other guys stepped up, say, hey, he asked you for. Because it wouldn't fit damn.

Well, What'd you think of the job when you got over there?

Pretty boring.

Where did you go?

Actually, so my first two trips were actually in Iraq.

Okay.

The first one was the vvip. And then I was at the villa. The villa was just dumb, I think. No, I think they might have did three trips, two trips with the villa. It was just dumb. I was just. I didn't do anything. It was just going to the gym. I mean, I did like a midnight shift just in case the chief of station woke up in the middle of the night and somebody had to take him. But they wouldn't. They wouldn't call me anyways. They'd use the other guy. So I was just like, whatever. So. But, you know, it was. We had a couple rocket attacks. I remember it was July. And. No, it's only. I don't think any of the GRS guys knew I was even there as grs, honestly, because I would just go hang out the Cobra guys, because they're, you know, they're the cool guy crew. I was just, you know. Anyways, so I remember being in the gym, and they're getting. We're getting hit. And, you know, you go into the bunker, and I heard this one, and just come. And you knew it hit. So I come out of the bunker, and, you know, their staff's like, get it back in here.

I was like, you know, whatever. So I go out, and you can see went. Went down. Ended up hitting one of the trailers, and it's still smoky, still all that crap. So I start yelling, anybody in there? Anybody in there? Start going in and end up being. I forgot what company you work for now, but you end up having a piece of shrapnel just sticking out of his chest. So I kind of grabbed. And he was stumbling. He was trying to find his way out. But, I mean, it jacked up the whole front. There was no stairs, no nothing no more. So I pulled him out, got him out, and I set him down. I was like, hey, is there anyone else in there? So just kind of sit down, relax, you know, I didn't want to lay him down, so I sat him, said, don't move. Stay here's. Anyone else in there? He's just kind of like, you know, his belt was wrong. You know, the. You know, he got two pods attached to. So I go back in there, and I start yelling, hey, anybody in here? Go back. The other one. Anyone in here?

Nobody was in there. So I go back out. Dude's gone. I'm thinking, oh. So I'm like, now I'm looking for this guy. He's got this piece of shrapnel, stuck it out, and then go around the corner, and actually, a couple of the GRS guys are headed that way and got a hold of him and sat him down. So I'm just kind of standing there, you know, kind of watching, you know, just kind of like, you know, kind of listen to everything going on. Already knew the trailer was kind of clear. That's the only one that got hit. And I don't want to say his name. I remember him looking up Mammy's. You at grs. You get the hell out of here. Okay? I went back. Went back to the gym, started working out again. So it was funny that I went. I went to go back to do the recall, and he was there. He's like, were you jeering because he remembered me? Is it just some dude just standing there? He's like, read yours. Like, why don't you say something? I didn't need to. You already. He already had him. The medical kit. I just.

What else am I to do? So and then. Then at the. Again, didn't do anything there. Then over at the vvip really didn't do anything there either.

What's the vvip?

It was just like the. Just part of the airport where they would fly in and fly out and stuff.

Oh, okay.

But we would just run people to the airport. I mean we do some. What they call black ops. First time I've learned about what actual black ops are, I was like, oh, okay. Anyways, that's the only thing we did out of there and. But I. One of the. They called it the White House. It was where they did a lot of the. Can't really say what they did in there, but a lot of explosives were in there. Well, one of the guys was in there welding and a spark hit one of the RPG blankets. And just. So we went over there. We had to get that guy out. And really that was about the biggest thing. But I was over at the. I mean he got jacked up. He was not the front of him, but the whole back side of him just got cooked.

Damn.

Yeah, so he was. He was pretty jacked up. Got him out of there. But what was that one GB base, Eagle Base. So I was. I was there doing. I think I get in Iraq. I got all the details. I mean I was. I was the only non SF guy there. So like, you want to do this then take whatever. So I got to work out, you know, with those guys quite a bit. And that's when I. I can't remember his name, but what they call him the Wolf of Baghdad. That one Tank commander, Marine.

I don't know.

I have to look them. But so I was there on watch that night when they were. Because it was kind of cool because they had to be on the radio. I kind of help because sometimes their comms wouldn't be all that great. So we kind of transmit if they couldn't hear. Well, that was. I was there that night when he was in the lead and. And he. Him getting whacked. One of the GB guys. And so that was. You know, he was a pretty well known Marine at the time. And I just. That was like when I first. When they were like saying, oh, he was a Marine. But he. I knew where he was working at, but when I saw it in the paper, it didn't say anything about what he. I was like, okay, this is how they're doing this stuff.

Gotcha.

So it was kind of a weird.

Yeah.

Like, oh, okay. So that's when I finally. I kind of. My wife at the time. Didn't know who I was working for.

You didn't tell your wife, but after.

I saw that, that's. I said, I'm gonna tell her just because.

What'd she say?

He's like, oh, okay. You know, no big deal. Then I. For the CIA.

All right, whatever. I want to go play tennis.

Yeah. So. But no, that was. Yeah, so that was an experience. But again, those two trips, I was just like, this is so stupid. Then I got sent to Afghanistan for the first time as grs. And again, I've been in Afghanistan for a couple years now, you know, so I knew the area. So when you get there, the newer guys, usually, they have to go out. You know, they're driving around knowing the town, you know, My hardest thing was, like, knowing the. Knowing this. The street names, the. The circles and all that stuff. But I got it fairly quick, and I remember I don't really say who it was. Again, I don't like putting names out there, but I was. You're not supposed to be play. You play a lot of Call of Duty, you know, you play a lot of Call of Duty as grs. So I was in. You know, I'm sitting there playing. He comes in. He's like, what the Tig. What are you doing? What, you think you know the roads now? I'm like, yeah, I already been, like. Only been, like, a week and a half. Like, that's it. You're doing your test now.

If you fail, you're out. Okay. When he tried to get me, he tried to stump me as best he could. He goes. Because he didn't realize. I think he had. I think he had just kind of shown up. But that was when I was over in. Actually, I started going to Herat. I was doing. I did a lot in Herat, so I don't think he got a feeling.

I know who that was.

Yeah. Heavy cop.

Yeah, he was second on my list.

Yeah. So anyway, so he goes. He's like, how the hell do you know the city so well? I was like, I've been doing this since 04 out here. Oh, it's like, you know, I knew the. I knew the damn city pretty. I just didn't get. Didn't really know the names and the circles. I just knew how to get around around. So the hardest part for me was just knowing the names in the circles. Oh.

So how long were you. You went direct, right? You. You.

So I didn't go direct until actually it was like, mid-2011. So I was over in Pakistan when the Consul got attacked there and I guess from, from that one, a couple other guys that were like high in the food chain for grs that were direct or whatever saw my actions there that day and that's when they said they want me to go and do direct.

What happened that day?

The consulate got attacked. Nothing really major happened. It was a, the dude came in with the car bomb initially blew up. Then there's a second one that came in. There was I think six attackers came out and they're just kind of shooting in the air. So we're inside the cons consulate and trying to figure out, okay, we're trying to get a hold of the, the State Department guys. Hey, what's going on? What do you see on your cameras? They told us post one had been already breached. We're like, that's this, that's serious. They're already inside the compound. So me and the other guy, you know, our gear was technically in our vehicle. That's where we just left it. You know, after that day, we never left our stuff in the vehicles no more. So we end up rounding up our own, some other body armor, another weapon system. Then we go out, they haven't even breached the freaking outer perimeter yet. So we come out the door like we're ready to shoot. Like talking about bad intel. Holy crap, guys. So he goes to the front, I go to the back. You know, they're just kind of shooting up.

We're being told that the, the attackers, they're in police and military attire. So I got the back corner of the consulate and it's pretty close to some other buildings and I'm seeing dudes running around and cops in military uniform left and right. Am I going, these are bad guys or not? I mean they're not looking up and they got their guns, but they're moving people. So we're just kind of standing there and there's a big ass tree so we couldn't engage the. There's a couple of DS agents that was up there. I think there was two DS agents up there with me and the other guy. And then a couple more on one of the other buildings. I think there's only like three buildings at the consulate, maybe two. But then probably about five minutes into this thing just, they lit off like 1500 pounds of TNT declass the building. Dude, it wasn't, it was pretty crazy. And then I, they asked me if I got knocked out or not. I remember getting up off the ground, but I don't know if I was knocked out or not. I Just remember a guy got smacked by one of those.

The big AC panels. And yeah, that was. Other than that, that's really all that happened. Me body parts from these guys are flying all over the place. The funniest one actually is two. Well, maybe not funny, but it is funny. One of the dudes got, you know, the fences had the. The gaps in them. One of the dudes by was just like, impelled. The other guy had his upper torso, finger in his nose. And I was just kind of funny. That's all they always are, is finger in the nose. But I mean, that was really it that happened. But after that, I guess they didn't. Don't hesitate. I guess they're like, oh, you're right, you can go to direct. And that's kind of when I went to direct.

Where did you go when you. Did you go right to Libya?

No, I pretty much went back to pack. Went there a couple more times and then. Then it was over to Olivia. So from there we flew, flew in, flew into Magazi that evening. And actually we started driving with the Chief of station from Benghazi. When we landed up to Tripoli, so we stopped in Mastrada, stayed the night again. I never really knew anything about Tripoli except for freaking the Marine Corps song, you know. So we're just kind of driving, taking turns, you know, through that hotel. I don't think anybody slept. You know, it's just a hotel. It ain't like it's a safe location. Yeah, you're just trusting the locals, man. So, you know, we did the Firewatch thing and. Yeah, get up to Tripoli. We stayed in like another hotel. Then we opened up a compound.

You opened it?

Yeah.

I didn't realize that.

Yeah. So the agency was there first. We actually, we went to the. The old embassy, went around there. I picked up a couple of the. The security procedure books that they left behind. Says classified on it. Whatever. I picked them up, made sure I brought them back. I don't know how. I mean, everything was still in them. Like, I guess they couldn't read English. So I brought those back to our compound, but now then stayed there. They found. Yeah, didn't helped open up the embassy. Then I left. And after. Then I went back. When I came back, that's when I went back down to Mangazi, which is good because I don't like the flagpole. So at the time it wasn't the flagpole because there was only four of us that did all the GRS guys that went up there. Then as I was leaving, two more guys Came in because they were getting ready to open up. The. Actually got to walk through the other. The, the permanent CIA annex. And again, I think it was like eight houses, all had pools. I mean, it was nice. So that's the one that they, they aired on TV saying it was the embassy that they broke into.

They're jumping off the, the balcony into the pool. That was the agency's compound.

Interesting. I never went over there.

Yeah, it was, it was nice.

I heard it was.

But yeah, then I went down there and. Yep, did a lot of stuff down there. They went down and we did one of the yellow cake sites, I guess for Gaddafi where you had a bunch of the nuclear crap down there. And other than that, you did some runs to. And I wouldn't think I'm say burn dirt. Well, I don't remember. But the city close to Egypt, I can't remember the name of it now, but other than that, I mean, it was pretty relaxed. I mean, even in Tripoli didn't really get too many stink eyes like you did in other places. But Benghazi was different, man. They would shake, they'd come and shake your hand like, like, thanks for your help. Thanks for getting him out. You know, if you're in a coffee shop that or getting food, somebody probably try to buy it for you.

No kidding.

It was weird. They're very grateful. So definitely a different environment anywhere else I've been.

How long were you there before that happened?

So the first two trips. The first trip was three months and then the second one was two months. Then my twins were born premature, so that kind of pulled me out early. So probably if it wasn't for that, I probably wouldn't have been in Benghazi when 911 happened. So yeah, so I was on my fourth trip down there when, when 911 hit. And that last time, I mean, it was fairly quiet for the most part. I think Iran had just capped. Just kidnapped a few people at that time. But a lot of some politicians, you know, they're trying to kill him. This is the first election like 30 years the police chiefs. I think a couple police chiefs got whacked when I was there. Other than that, I mean, threat towards us really wasn't there. But Bob, you know, it was just. I don't know, it's hard to explain out what. Yeah, it's just hard to explain. Bob just very risk adverse. Didn't really. I don't think he understood our capabilities.

Can you tell the audience who Bob was?

So Bob was the chief of base in Benghazi the head guy? Yep, the head guy. So, well, in Benghazi then he had the chief of station, which is oversees the whole country. But yeah, he was the head guy in Benghazi at the time. And you know when I talked about earlier about the con, even before the consulate, do you remember when the British ambassador got attacked?

No.

So he got attacked in between one of my trips. And again Bob was there, but a different team leader. And Bob told him, no, you can't go and team there at that time told him to pound sand. They left and they're the only reason why that one of the security guys even survived because they were able to render him medical aid.

Right on.

So. And there was a time when we had the deputy chief and a linguist. They were probably almost about an hour away from us and they got hemmed up at a checkpoint. And we're like, you know, we need to get over there. We get in the area. I mean, we don't go in there guns blazing. It's just, you don't do that. It's just in case something goes south after the checkpoint, we can help intervene. He wouldn't even let us leave the compound to go help to get in the area. That's just the type of person he was, man. So again, for like the stand down order, it was just him. That and. Well, there's more, more to it now that I know of, thanks to Sarah.

So did you know Sarah when you were over there?

Oh yeah, worked with her in a few other places. She likes getting people whacked.

Yeah, she really does. She still likes getting people whacked.

I did. I see people trying to go after on like, especially on X and stuff. Oh, you're fake, dude. She's far from that. And I worked with her in a lot of different places. We got some people whacked.

So we just brought her on the team.

Yeah.

Did she tell you that? Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. We've gotten pretty tight ever since that first interview.

She's freaking. She knows what she's talking about.

Yeah, she does, man. She does.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I'm really excited about it. But so you've worked with her several times in different locations. Where else did you work with her at?

Mainly in Pesh, I think that was my funnest place.

Why do you say that?

Oh man, because we got, we got some hvts whacked in that place.

Nice.

And what's cool, a lot of the places you go, like they don't tell you about like what you're doing why you're doing it. For the most part, they're. They're like, oh, yeah, we're going after this guy. This is how we're going to do it. This is what, you know, you. I need you to take this, do this. So you got more involved in actually getting these dudes whack. It was. It was awesome.

Nice.

So I think that was. And it was just like, you're always working. I mean, it was. It was always work.

You liked working?

Oh, yeah, it was great.

You didn't like the flagpole booze? Booze cruises.

No. Time just goes by too slow.

Yeah, I didn't like that either. I like to work.

Yeah. So that's what you're over there for, man. Over there to work, get things done. You know, I remember we almost got. We almost got killed at a restaurant. But an asset called about a half hour before the meet and said, it's. It's an ambush. They're going to kill you when you're there. So we pulled. We still went and did counter surveillance. And sure as they. They pulled in there and went in, but they didn't. Their head, their lead guy, we see they're stupid because they all got out of, like, the haji van and they're like standing there, and the one guy walked in, then walked out, and you can tell he's like throwing his hands up. And they got back in and they left. There are six of them, all AKs and hajjied out. Yeah.

Well, let's get into the night of the September 11th. You ready?

What day is that? Yeah, what do you want to know? The short version or the long version or just the.

The long version.

So. Well, getting. Sarah was there, and actually I was doing this one, kind of like gathering stuff. She showed me how to use this one, one of the equipments, and I ended up actually having that there. When we went. We took. That. Took the deputy, the. The chief of base, deputy chief of base, and another case officer that morning over to a meeting with the local intel service, which is the first time they ever met them, as the first time they ever been to this location would actually happen to be right across the street from the consulate on the second floor. And so I had this thing, you know, it was running, you know, collecting all the data. People are on their phone and stuff. And, you know, and I actually. I took it in the office with me because I went upstairs and just kind of. Because I just want to see what they could see. And I'm just. Remember red Flags going off. Like, they have this thing right across the street. They can see inside the comp. You can see everything. It's like, this is just weird. And, you know, I sat there for a little bit, then I went outside.

The vehicle is just out in the parking lot, unsecured for the most part. So I didn't want to leave it alone. I was the only one, so. So I went back out there, kind of hung out in the vehicle, just watching the door and watching, you know, whatever you could. Well, they come out and they're. And they're talking and, you know, and we're like, hey, you need to take us over to the consulate. It's like, like, okay, no problem. And there's as we're going. I come to find out that there, they got a intel that there was going to be an attack on a government facility that day. So when the ambassador was there, he just got in there the night before. So it was kind of like to inform him, this is early morning still. I think it's even before breakfast. It was pretty early. Go over there, let him know just in case he was going to plan on doing any more ops off base. Because I think Roan and. And Jack had a movement with him that day. Because we're augmenting our security. We shut everything down so we could help them on their moves.

So I think that kind of shut one of his moves off that was supposed to be off base. So I kind of come back and, you know, I. I take the. That thing that I had and I was like, that's probably pretty good. And I download it all into a USB drive and I put it in my locker, waiting for Sarah to come back, because it was, you know, that's the targeting package kind of a thing. And so anyways, not thinking anything of it, rest of the day goes by normal. I think Oz was the only one who had a movement that day besides me with the female case officer. And it was like some kind of meeting she couldn't cancel. And the next morning, me and Rome were supposed to be part of the detail that took the ambassador to the Persian oil golf company. And when Rome was talking with them and they're like, well, we're just going to let the local driver drive us do the route. We're like, no, we're not. So I was like, I think I know exactly what they're talking about, you know, because again, I've been there longer.

I've droned, you know, and actually, I think I did a meet there once. But anyway, So I went there. We found exactly where was that. We did a couple of routes, kind of checking like checkpoints or block roads because they were still kind of doing each neighborhood at its own little click. So we're trying to make sure which neighborhood we could flow through. Nice. We figured it out. On our way back, Rowan calls the, the DS agent. Hey, we got the, we got the route. Do you want us to stop by now? We can go over it or do you want to wait till the morning? Because we're like, we're not. The driver is not going to dictate how we're going to go. I mean that you had an HVT with you and you're going to let a local like, oh hell no. So. So they said, nah, we'll just wait till tomorrow. And we were driving by the consulate and you know, it's nice and quiet and you know, nobody's out in the road. There was no big protest. And you know, you're looking between 8:39 or something like that. We go back, we get to the, the team, the team room, team leader hushes in there and kind of let, let him know what's going to happen because we were probably going to leave early, you know, so we can go and explain to them our route and time it and all that stuff so that they know where we're going in case something happens.

I go to bed, they're still out there jibber jabbering. Jack, he's on the, on the computer talking, Skyping with his wife. And you know, he just found out that he, his wife was pregnant, I think with the third kid. And you know, I'm just kind of getting undressed and next thing you know, here, hey, I'll GRS to the team room. Just that calm. This is from Hushes on the radio. There's kind of like, okay, so I'll just kind of get out of bed, you know, and go to put my flip flops on. And like I need all GRs to the team room now. So I start moving a little bit quicker. Say, Jack, I'll go figure out what's going on. Go out there. And so I'm in building four and then you have building three, which is the command post, and you have building one or building two, which is Tonto and od's house. And then building one, which is actually what's where Oz was staying, which was the chow hall. That was the very front of the compound or the front gate, I guess you could say. You can hear gunfire going off, stuff like that you can hear a couple explosions, but spin ghazi, there's a wedding hall.

Try to tell people the wedding hall right there, you'd hear people gun. You know, they would shoot stuff off. Then he, then he comes up to me, say, hey, we need to get ready to roll. The consulate's been overrun. A lot of people kind of. They don't understand. Like they think it's being attacked. No, they're. He's saying it's being over. It's been overrun. So that means they're already in the compound by the time we get the call.

Inside the gates.

Inside the gates. So that's how fast it happened. So I run back, tell Jack. We get our stuff on. We come out Tonto and, and od. They were the qrf. So they're, you know, they're dressed ready to go. And I think Rome grabbed one of the vehicles and the Tanto grabbed the other one. So they were already staged by the time mean Jack finally came out. And that's when I overheard, you know, how many, how many attackers are there? They're saying anywhere from between 50 to 150. So there's. They're all over the place. And I'm thinking, yeah, we got M4. So I ran into the team room, I grabbed the grenade launcher and the, and the belt fed machine gun brought them out, you know, started doing function checks on that, waiting in the vehicle. I'm in the back seat. Roan's the driver, Jack is the passenger. You know, just kind of check and checking the trigger, okay? Making sure I know which way's safe, which way's not safe, you know, then, you know, checking. Gain launch and checking the trigger, and we're just kind of still sitting there and it's like going, you know, these guys, you know, they're digging in.

You know, they're, they're going to, they're going to get the initiative. We're going to lose it. So I get out of the vehicle and I remember it's, it's. It's Bob Hush and the deputy chief of base. They're all on the front porch. And I was out on the passenger side. I said, hey, you know, we got to get over there. We got to get, get over there. Now we're losing the initiative. It's going to take us a lot harder to get onto this compound and rescue these guys. And Bob goes, no, stand down. You need to wait. I'm like, what the fuck? What the fuck are we waiting for? You know, there's nothing to wait for. We need to get over there. And he's like, we need to come with the plan. We can't come with the plan. Fucking sitting here. We got to come with the plan. With their eyes on the, on the target, there's nothing we can do from here. We know the layout of the compound. And that's when hush goes tig, shut up. Get back in the car. So fine, I get back in and you know, it's armored so they couldn't hear what's going on.

I closed the door and I got out. I said, hey, Bob just told us to stand down. And you could just tell right then they're like, you know he's not gonna let you go. That's what it meant. Well with Sarah and what OD would been doing throughout the years is actually digging into actually what happened. More the investigation. Well, weeks prior to the attack, the 17th of Feb had told Bob, the commander had told Bob that they were, if something ever happened, they were going to, they were never going to show up. That night Bob actually got a hold of him before he told me to stand down, that they weren't going to show up. That's why we're told to stand down. And then, you know, for them to sit there say, oh, there's no evidence of a stand down order. What the hell is that? But again, how can you rely on. It's a hostage rescue is what it is. You're going to said 17 Feb in there. Which is, which is worse than sending the boy Scouts in to do a hostage rescue. Some of these guys with the watching the State Department train don't even know how to reload a freaking rifle.

So it's like we are the. And like in the movie, we are the only help that they had. We're the only support that would that could made a difference. And that stand down order is 100 guarantees why Ambassador Stevens and Sean Smith didn't make it. They're dead because of that stand down order.

Damn, man.

Well, people say, well how, how do you know that for a fact? Well, we. They'd have been engaging with us instead of setting the buildings on fire. They died of smoke inhalation. They didn't die from, you know, blunt force trauma, gunshot. They died from the smoke from the fire. So. So we ended up, you know, it came down to, I think it was Alec gate on, on the radio. The State Department guy said if you guys don't get here now, we're all gonna die. And that was it. Rowan just put it in drive. We started driving. Hush Gets on the radio. Wait, wait, wait, I'm coming. We were leaving his ass. We were done waiting. We're done asking for permission.

It hushes the team for the audience. Hush is the team leader for the GRS unit at the Benghazi.

And his name's not classified because it's. It's in the Congress. Congressional.

So call sign. Anyways.

Yeah. So we leave, we get over there. I immediately engage with the grenade launcher, fire three rounds, which. That disperses the attackers, which has allowed us to move on to the compound.

Who did you fire them at?

The attackers. So they're. They're way out of range from the grenade launcher. But it's still. They didn't. I think they may have thought it was mortars coming in. They don't. You know, from what I heard, they had no idea what it was because they've never been shot at like that with something like that before. It was just a 40 Mike Mike's. So they dispersed. I went back to the vehicle, put the grenade launcher in because I had no sling for it. Normally I had to attach. I was just those things, you know, you do your own debrief for yourself, right. I should attach it right back to the gun. So is what happened. Normally it was attached to one of the rifles, but we had a temporary team leader that came in and took him off. Took it off the rifle because he's like, well nobody else can use it. Just grab the damn gun that's had it. It doesn't matter anyways. So I put it in there. I had no. Otherwise I'd had it with me too the whole night. But grabbed the belt fed and then Roan and Jack just followed me. We went down the road pause just outside because again we haven't really heard from State Department yet.

I just kind of got on because we had. Now we had. Now we're on the same channel as them. I got on the radio just to let them know hey, we are coming on. Kind of like hey, don't shoot us. So when I said that Roan, Roan got up and started taking off. Jack got up, moved in as I was starting to follow behind them because you know the agency, we have all the high tech gear, right. You know, we got the throat things, the, the brain things that feed the radio, right? No, we have to still we have the whole school clip ons worse than freaking law enforcement. So I'm trying to clip this radio back on my gear because we're all high speed. So they're running in front of me next Thing, you know, I start getting shot at. So I dropped down the militiamen that were with us actually at that corner. When we showed up, they actually followed us down. I didn't realize that at first. They. They opened up on fire and whoever's firing at at me because I was kind of looking down, so I didn't know where the gunfire came from.

So I dropped. Well, while they were firing, I was able to move up to Jersey barrier and get the machine gun up. And I was getting ready to start to put my nods back. I was ready to put my nods down when some local just walks out of the darkness. Hands up. 17th Feb. Don't shoot, don't shoot. Just like where the this guy just come from? You know? Again, I don't know. No uniform, no nothing. So he could have been the one shooting. I have no idea. So I look at the guy next to me, you know, a little, little haji guy, you know, just he looks at me and he just kind of shrugs and like, okay, whatever. I don't. Dirk A Durka. So I just kind of got up, moved in the compound. And first thing you see is the main village is engulfed in flames. Black smoke coming out the building off to the right, which ended up being 17 Feminine Martyrs Brigade. That was the, that was the QRF that the State Department was relying on in case something happened. So they had four guys that stayed there. But from what I heard, they actually, those four guys actually did shoot back a little bit before they took off.

So from what I heard, they actually did try to fight. Don't know for sure, but anyways, that building was completely engulfed. I just kept, you know, going. As I'm going forward, there's a guy walking from that building and I don't know, you know, who's all in the State Department compound. No weapon, no nothing. Just walking, you know, flip flops, white shirt, just nonchalant. Just like, this is so freaking. Had this out here just happened. Oh, before we got down there all the way, we had a local who came out of his house and was. Had his cell phone in his hand, was yelling at us in Durka Durka. We're just looking at, we're like telling him, get back, get back. And finally we just had to keep going again. So that. That guy shooting at us, this guy here, I'm like, what the hell is just some weird stuff. So you can't just shoot anybody, you know. You know, we're not cops. We just don't shoot anybody. Just kidding. So I go up and I hear banging Going on instead of, I don't know where everybody's really at. So now I'm out here by myself, Some local dude behind me.

You know, I'm watching him, just making sure he doesn't pull anything. He never did. And there, you know, they had like a horseshoe fighting position. So I go up there and I'm just kind of sitting there, kind of just assessing, listening to sounds, watching this big orchard area that's all pitch black. I go to put my NVGs on. I couldn't because some of the spotlights were kind of like shining up high. So it just floods them out. So you can't. The night vision goggles are pretty much worthless. Maybe if I had your super secret, you know, 10 goggle ones would have been better, but.

Doubt it.

But. So I'm sitting there getting no, no communication on the radio. Next thing I know, I hear a vehicle starting up. I'm thinking, like, what the. Oh, somebody's stealing a. They're all up armored, you know, they don't have any like, like we did, you know, up unarmored. So I'm thinking, oh yeah, I got a belt fed machine gun. Got it up armored. Oh, I'm gonna shoot the out of this car, right? So I can see it, it's coming down the road. The lights are off, there's no lights on it. So I'm thinking, oh yeah, they're trying to be sneaky or something. So I come out from the side of the sandbag and I kind of got it up. Vehicle comes, it turns. Dude, I got the slack coming out of this freaking the saw. And I'm like, oh, it's gonna be awesome. And next thing you know, I see, dude lean forward. Ended up being Dave Ubin, State department guy. It's like, oh, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, how many people get to blast a government vehicle? Not get in trouble, dude, I was, I was like, yeah, so, yeah, so that didn't happen.

And then they backed up, I moved up, kind of followed him because I didn't know what the hell was going on. I mean, no comms whatsoever going on. And that's when I end up linking up on the road. He was standing up on the, on the front porch and I kind of talking with them and he's like, yeah, they don't know where the ambassador is. And I kind of look over off to my right and there's a. They have one guy laying there. And then Jack's kind of over the top, you know, kneeling down over him. Look like he's trying to provide first aid, and I go, you know who that is? Is it one of ours? He says, I have no idea. And I was like, well, hopefully it's one of theirs, you know? And then, like, kind of goes like, well, I guess we got to clear this area now. And that was, like, the main villa area. And it's. I mean, it was huge inside. So we kind of move in. Pitch dark, hotter than. Hotter than hell. I mean, it was so freaking hot. It's kind of like being like. Just like a major bonfire, but being right next to it the whole time.

That's what I mean. It was just intense heat. Moved. Couldn't see anything. You know, flashlight made it even worse. So you're just kind of going by feel. I go in, I think, three times. I went in and out. I don't know if. I don't know if Roan ever came back out that many times, but last time I went in, I was thinking, okay, I'm just gonna. Because I had a kind of the layout, because I'd been there a few times already. So I was. I just went to where I knew where the safe room door was. It was kind of like the outer door was open, but the bars were closed. And I yelled. I yelled for Chris as three. I think twice as loud as I could, and actually somebody named Chris outside, I could hear where it's coming from. She's like, oh, I'm out here. Like, that's not, you know, Stevens. So I start moving back out. I get out, and, you know, just that shouting. You know, changing those breaths and shouting. I took in so much freaking smoke. So I'm hacking. Then I hear Ron. He's inside saying, I'm lost. I can't find my way out.

I'm lost. So I go back in, and we just did a little Marco Polo thing and got him. Then we kind of just moved out. And they're. They're still going in and out of the safe, because when we come out, the safe room's, like, right here. And the, you know, they're still kind of going in and out of that room. And that's when Tonto gets on the radio, say, hey, we're getting ready to jump the back gate. So myself and Roan, we moved from there over to the. The road that separated the two compounds and started, you know, putting security up there. Remember, Roan coming up, said, hey, you know, thanks. You know, I hope we. You know, thanks for saving my life. And I'm like, well, I hope. You know, I hope we can all make this out alive. It's kind of like something like that. Because initially I didn't tell anybody about the Rhone incident because to me that was just. Who would believe it anyways? Well, I guess Ron end up telling Oz about it because when I told the story to the author, he's like, well, what about this? It's like, how the hell do you know about that?

So, but to me, it's like putting stuff in that to where it's only my word versus a guy who's not even here. So I was just kind of like, well, I'm not putting that in there. Yeah, but anyways, so they end up jumping over. But unfortunately when no, nothing really major happened, but from it. But the locals that went with Tonto on them didn't want to jump the back gate. So they had Tonto open up the back gate. Tonto said, hey, you know, when you come in, close the back gate. While they didn't. So we went over there, cleared the other side, came back. I started searching in the, in the safe room. We didn't really know the layout of the safe room whatsoever. I kind of went in there a couple times trying to get the blast, the, the blast shield things open so we could open up more windows to flood the smoke out so we can search easier. Because honestly, I didn't even think we'd get a follow on attack. I figured that had been kind of hit like, you know, again thinking 17 fab's going to show up, the police are going to show up, they're going to lock this place down, right?

You just had a US he said an embassy reg was US or not, but an embassy, a foreign embassy in your country just got attacked. In my mind, you're going to shut this city down, right? So I wasn't honestly realizing, wasn't thinking too much about a fall on attack. So went in a couple times, kind of came back out hushed at the time. I think it was like the third time I came back out. Well, the first time I went in, I smashed my night vision goggles because again, they're up here not thinking about it, just trying to go into this window. Freaking smashed, shattered them. So lost those, jacked my neck up, but came back out and he's kind of, you know, he had all the State Department guys and they're gathering up, trying to figure out what they're going to do. He's getting them in the vehicle. He's kind of like, I get on the radio, say, hey, I'm gonna go in one More time. And he says, no, I'll just stand by. You know, I think because we're probably gonna evacuate or something. I just said, yeah, this, you know, I took my helmet off, took my body armor off, grabbed my flashlight, took, put my weapon down.

Finally learned what I was taught in elementary school. Get on your freaking belly. Get on your belly. If there's a fire, it works. I mean I could see, I mean it wasn't, it was only like this much, but I could see pretty far. I could see the other doors. I crawled, went into, out of that room, went into the bathroom, looked around the shower, the tub, look into the other room, looked under the bed, you know, felt on top of the bed, there's a couple cabinets open just in case they went into it, the closet. And then as I was coming out, an RPG smacked the wall of the room I was in. That was, that was, that was loud. And that's what count. That started the, the second attack on the consulate. And it was pretty much just kind of kitty corner was just like the door was here. The other safe room door where I was at was like over here. So I just, you know, kind of got up and just ran that way, jumped out, put my gear back on. Then I peeked around the corner to see where the, the fight was coming from.

And it was coming towards the back gate. There's a ladder that went up to the roof. Got up on the roof and let the, just let the, let everybody know, hey, I'm on the roof just in case something happened. I got shot, they don't have to go searching for me. So I start moving to where the fire was coming from. You know, they all have like the three foot walls around the top, so it's pretty easy to move up. As I came up, the guy who was shooting the RPG was coming, came back into the front of the gate and getting ready to launch. I just did about a 10, 15 round volley of fire. He drops and all the fire stopped. Oz and who else got to see Oz? And actually Hush said that I guess that volley of fire that I did nailed the RPG and actually did a whole Rambo thing. Went off in 90 degree angle. So that's how good a shot I am. I can hand RPG fly through the air so that stops. You know, everybody kind of starts coming up on the roof because we're still trying to figure out what we're going to do.

The state Department guys. One thing that kind of irritated me was and while the, the attack started, Tonto went and got behind their vehicle. For, you know, protection. It's an UP armored vehicle. Well, they actually honked a horn so they can get him off the vehicle so they could take off. So again, this is their compound. They didn't even think of jumping out and helping us defend their compound. They took off.

Jeez.

So they leave, they end up going the wrong way. They got. They got ambushed. I mean, they made it to our compound, but, you know, they got followed all the way to our compound. We're still there. Nobody still. No, no. They didn't know if the ambassador was kidnapped. He took off on foot. No idea if he was still in the building. So again, we had no idea. So we're just trying to figure out what we're going to do. Then they got word from the drone that came overhead that there's about 100, 150 people moving towards us. So again, we had, like, six of us and a linguist that looked like a turtle because of the. You know, his body armor and the helmet were just way too big for him. And then two, three dozen unknown people with us, some in uniform, some not, some in shorts, some with guns, some with no guns. It was just weird, man. So it was just like one of those moments that, you know, they made the call, we gotta go. So we all get down, we loaded up Sean's body into our vehicle. State Department guys left him with us.

So we had. Rome was driving. It was Hush Jack, the linguist, Tonto, myself, od, and Sean's body in the back. So we go. We pull out. We go back the way we came in. The one. The other vehicle that we had, we had to leap. We left it because the three of us went on foot. So that vehicle got. Stayed. But that's also where the grenade launcher was. So if you watch the damn movie, I didn't lose a grenade launcher. That was bullshit. Knew exactly where it was. But there was like, again, dozens. So people around the vehicle, we had no idea who they were. You know, they could have been part of the attack. So instead of us breaking seal and potentially all getting killed right there because they had, you know, gun trucks with disks mounted to them, there's, you know, nothing we can do with that. So we just kept going right on by them like we're just neighbors.

So what's going through your head when they tell you 100 to 150 people are moving towards you?

It's like, oh, that's a lot of people. You know, it's. You're just, like, hoping they don't hit you. I mean, one thing I've learned though is what I try to tell people is they're shooting at you, you're probably not going to get hit. It's the one, it's the ones that's shooting at somebody else is ones that's going to hit you. Because I've really rarely see them just kind of shoot like we do. They kind of do the whole spray prey thing. So. Yep. So we get back to our compound, we dismount and we get attacked probably within about an hour.

What's the discussion like when you get back to your compound?

Really wasn't. It was just, we just dismounted and kind of went to pre designated positions to defend the compound, you know, especially since they just came back and tried to hit us, you know. Well, they're coming back for a third time at the consulate so it's like there's no way. This is gonna be a long night. So we just got out and we just kind of. Jack went Oz, he was already there so he had the State Department guys when he got there. He put, he put one on each of the buildings besides Building one. The two other guys, one of the guys got pretty jacked up from smoke inhalation. That was with the Ambassador and Sean Smith, he's, you know, he made it out alive. But then the other, I don't know why the other guy didn't come out. But anyways, so there were three State Department guys up on the roofs. We had four local guards and then we had two SPOs with us as well. So they were like, they did all like the gate stuff and the monitoring of the, the cameras. So they were kind of, so the base was kind of secure for the most part.

But we just kind of went and filled those gaps. I went to Tower 2, Oz went to Tower 3, Roland went to Building 3, Jack and 4 and Od and Tanto went to Building 2. So we can kind of COVID the zombie lands, what we called it. That's where we kind of figured because the other ones was just Chuck Points coming up that road. I mean you didn't have to be in the front to really take care of that. I mean it's just really easy. So. But I end up moving from Tower 2 to Tower 3. And during this move is when we got attacked. I was actually carrying water to Oz when something came over the wall. Probably exploded about 25ft from me. Something like that was pretty close. Didn't get hit by nothing, but dropped the water. Kind of like trying to protect myself. And I'm Pat, you know, gunfire is going on, but I'm just. Adrenaline's rushing you, and sometimes, you know, you're hit. So I'm just checking myself saying, okay, I'm not hitting. Get up in there, you know, and just start returning fire. Lasted, you know, felt like forever, but probably like five, 10 minutes, you know, maybe 20, 15 attackers, you know, but unlike the movie, they had a lot of concealment, so a lot of times you can only see the flashes.

They're just, again, they're just shooting through shrubs. They're not in front of it, they're behind it. So even, even the night vision, you couldn't. You couldn't see them. So, you know, we didn't have the. The cool infrared crap, just night vision, but. And repelled that one. And that was probably about, I think they said like 1:30 in the morning or something like that one, 1:30. That's about the time they found the ambassador's body. He was inside, inside the consulate in his room is where they found him. And the locals didn't know who he was, but the neighbor was there. When he saw him, he actually grabbed him. And I got to see the actual camera footage from a cell phone. You could see it in his eyes. He was already gone. He wasn't alive. But from the moment he grabbed the ambassador, dragged him up, threw him in his car, took him to hospital, you know, pretty much the camera was just almost on his face the whole time. I mean, it was moving around. But yeah, you know, that whole. There's a lot of things that people said, you know, that he was raped, mutilated and tortured.

That never happened to him. That's all. None of that stuff ever happened. That's one of another thing that kind of forced us into the book is that stuff never got corrected. So anyway, so they found him about that time, but it wasn't verified until about 3 in the morning that it was actually him. When we got the. The pictures of him in the video. So as we're sitting there, we heard that the team from Tripoli had just landed at the airport, but the militia that was supposed to show up didn't show up yet. And this is when we got the second attack. It was about three in the morning now. Same, same, same type of attack with RPG started coming over the back of the wall. There was a car that actually, that pulled up. Yeah, I wasn't in the tower. I was actually talking with the TL at the time. And because what I was trying to do, because they. They had everybody else kind of go into the rooms and Getting their personal belongings. So I was like, if we're gonna evacuate, we need to get our own stuff. So I went and got my stuff, and I was kind of talking with the TL at the time, and that's when I knew about the ambassador and all that stuff.

And that's. And then a car somehow got towards the back gate where the Jersey Berries were, so I couldn't get to us. It's about 50 yards or something like that. Dude gets out. Oz sees him. He goes to go throw something. Oz drops him, and that's when the RPG flies over. And I head back over to the tower. Engage. That's when I end up getting some guys moved around from the. They flanked us. That's the only maneuver they did, you know? So I end up getting shot in the side plate stopped. It still hurts. Let me tell you. It still hurts. Not like the movie. I didn't lay down and sit there for five minutes like a little baby, you know, kind of buckle me, put my hand up underneath, making sure I didn't fill a hole. I mean, it was wet because I'm freaking sweating if I didn't feel no hole, but it hurt. Felt like I was still shot, didn't feel a hole, and I just got back in it, then end up checking myself after, you know, after it was done, making sure it wasn't actually shot, but. And that firefight probably lasted a little bit longer.

It was probably double the double the guys that showed up. But I think Tonto and OD and even the camera guys said they could see them. You know, some dudes crawling on their hands, some people getting dragged out. So we were hitting them, but. And it was pretty, Pretty quiet. Them. The. The team from Tripoli, the militia, showed up. Tonto moved from Building two over to Building one to guide them in, and that's where the whole laser. We were. You know, I lasered two guys, but it wasn't to. To identify them as targets. It was to let them know that they were at my target. They keep coming closer, I'm going to shoot you. And then Tonto used it, because that was actually that. That was just a. A live laser. It was let them know, like, you need to walk in this way because they had no guns. But we had, again, the sheep herders, they were still coming, dude. It was weird. They were still coming. Showing up and herding the damn sheep.

Are you serious?

Hey, dude, it was so weird while.

All this is going on.

Yeah, man, I know. So. But anyway, so Tanta moved up. He did the lasso thing so they can kind of. They had our coordinates, but just to guide them in a little bit better. So he was just lassoing him in with the ir. So that's where that whole. We're lasering targets. No, we weren't. Anyways, so they come in. They get there. They go in. The team from Tripoli and the militia commander go into the compound and go to the, you know, inside the command post. Why they let this militia guy in there, I don't know. But anyways, then Bob, you know, he knew that Roan was there. I guess they worked in the teams together and stuff like that. Said, hey, you know where he's at? And, you know, so he went up. Rome was introducing him to Dave Ubin and. And Oz, and kind of, I guess, explained what was going on when what I heard what sounded like a mortar going off. It's kind of like that thump. You know, it's kind of hard to explain. People when you're next to. It's really loud. When you're not, you can kind of tell what it is.

Especially when you're in infantry, you do a lot of mortars. And I get. I'm getting ready to click the radio when Tonto gets on and beats me to it. Hey, I think I just heard a mortar. And he wants hear that. And I key the radio. I said, yeah. And that's when the round. The round hits. And it hit probably, you know, 25, I would say, yards west and 20, 25 yards north from Building C. Small arms fire opened up same time, and then those guys opened up. So I just kind of look and I see the explosion. So I go back to my area just in case he's getting. You're waiting for more attacks, like, just, you know, you got to trust the guys. They. They trust me to watch that side. So then I hear another one going off. Don't ask me how I can hear these things, but that one comes in, it hits, kind of tags the top of the wall, but blows up on the other side. So, you know, I'm looking at the explosion that ended up taking out Dave Ubin because he had taken his helmet off and he got a bunch of shrapnel to the forehead.

So that dropped him. Then I heard another round going off. And to me, from my angle, that one hits here, that one hits here, here. I'm thinking, because they want to come to this area, they're trying to take out the tower. So I jump out of the tower, and I start moving back to what we call the Prison gym. And the round comes and it hits the top of the building and I guess two more hit right behind it. And, you know, everything just goes quiet. So I'm looking at the building, I'm like, holy. So I get on the radio immediately, say, hey, you guys up on building three? You guys okay? Hush gets on the radio, says, yeah, we're okay in here. I'm like, you shut the up. I'm talking about the guys on top of the building. Jack gets on the radio. He's over on building four, which is closest to building Threes, says, hey, Tig, I got no movement. I can't see anybody moving. So I start sprinting over there, start going up the ladder again with the small arms. You know, the wall, you know, it doesn't go all the way up.

So as I start getting the crest of the wall, I'm checking my six and you know, as much as I can and still go fast. And then I just kind of jump over. Over here. On the left hand side is one guy, he's got his pistol out. So I start talking to him immediately saying, you know what? I, you know, hey, man, you can be okay. You know, say calm. I got you. Gotcha. Had my actually end up having got Oz's go bag instead of mine because mine got left in the vehicle over at the consulate. I didn't lose that either. He got left in the vehicle. So I start going through Oz's stuff, trying to figure out where his tourniquets are and stuff like that. Because Jack, Jack Ubin, his left leg, left arm almost completely serviled off. I mean, it was just shredded. So if you actually watch the movie and they show Oz's arm and stuff, that's what Dave Ubin's leg and arm looked like. It was just shredded. So I go for his leg first, start getting it on, you know, Then before I started this, I got on the radio, said, hey guys, I need, I got men down, I need help up here.

Then I started going to work finding things and got the tourniquet on him, got the second tourniquet on. I'm trying to look them over. It's still dark out and it's kind of like the blue light kind of a thing. So it's not light enough to really see, but you can kind of see shadows. So I'm trying to look at them as close as I can without busting them the flashlight out, because those are pretty accurate freaking mortar. So there's got to be a spotter somewhere. So for God, it's going to spotter somebody who sees what we call a splash, which is the impact, and then they tell the mortar team how to adjust. So that's what I was afraid of. So they see movement, they're going to relaunch them or something. So I have no idea why they stopped. So I look them over as best I can. I said, all right. Right now is the best I can do. I got to. Because I know there's dudes with other stuff gotta be blown up. And I grab my stuff, get on the radio, say, hey, I got guys down. I need help. I go to turn.

That's when Dave said, hey, give me back my gun. I'm thinking, oh, you know, you always. You know, you're always taught, you know, don't give somebody back, especially when they're Give back their gun when their bell's been rung that bad. But I also thought, you know, it might help keep him calm and stop and give him something else to think about besides going into shock. So I just unloaded it. You know, he took the mag out, racked the round out, and just handed it back to him. I. I doubt he realized I did it because, you know, still dark. I mean, I had my back turned towards him, but to me, again, it was just that try to keep him calm kind of a thing.

Yeah.

So I got up, started moving across. There's one guy just laying flat in the middle of the building, not moving. Keep moving. There's like a. We had a little water tower thing. Water. You can just hear it flowing. I didn't know what it was at first, but I could see somebody kind of landing. It's a wall moving. Somebody else was laying down in the fetal position, but, you know, it's going to. Went straight to the guy that was moving. End up being Oz. He's just kind of sitting there. I think he saw me coming, and he had his tourniquet out. I think he was starting to do it for himself, but I think he saw him. He's like, I got. You know, he'll. I'll just let him put it on. Oz is kind of lazy. I mean, you interviewed him, you kind of know. So he's just kind of, you know, just like bouncing his wrist up and down. Say, hey, take. Check this out. Like, literally. I mean, it's kind of limp. You know, it's pretty jacked up. But he's just like, hey, I think it's messed up. I'm like, yeah, quit playing with.

You're gonna make it even worse, man. Stop and he's like, yeah, but look, you know, it's just. It was just one of those moments, and I ended up just last time, get on the radio. Said, I got guys down, I need help. And that's when OD gets on the radio, says, hey, if nobody's going to go over there and help, I'm gonna get off this damn roof and do it myself. That's when I hear, hush. Get on the radio again. It says, no, just stay where you're at. We're on our way. Not that they're coming up. I guess they're just now leaving the building. So I get the tourniquet on Oz, I get him up, say, hey, can you walk to the ladder by yourself? And he's kind of like, you know, he's seeing Roan kind of right there next to him, like, well, I guess I got no choice. And so I kind of guide him a little bit just to make sure he didn't, like, collapse, I guess, you know, because, you know, they got to be. That brain's got to be wrong pretty bad. So he moves on. He was able to walk.

I go over to the third guy, which ended up being Roan. Flipped him over onto his back, checked for a pulse, never got a pulse. But his throat moved. So, you know, for me, adrenaline could have been pumping. I don't really know. So I kind of sat for a second to another second. Didn't feel anything. Ripped off his body armor. Lifted up his shirt, you know, try to, you know, do a look, listen, feel again. Couldn't really see too much, but I was at least trying to see if I can hear or feel a breath. Couldn't feel anything. And that's. At that moment, it's like, okay, I gotta break out the flashlight. Got the flashlight. Checked his pupils, no dilation. So right there, I kind of knew he was gone. And then with Oz, he was just going down the ladder. One of the Delta Force guys was just up there. And I was like, oz is going to go down there. They're going to start screaming. Because Rome was our only medic on the base. So I just got on the radio, said, hey, everybody, Ron's gone. Went over to the fourth individual again, rolled him over.

And initially when I. When I saw him again, it was still kind of dark. I thought it was Jack, like, the process, everything really quick, but I'm like, oh, wait a second. No. Oh, I can. Because I was just talking to Jackie's over on that building, so. But did the same process to him. Did a pulse check. Look, listen. Feel pupil dilation. There was nothing at this time. After I'd finished this, I could hear. I don't remember if it was a team leader or was the country team leader, but they're like, hey, we got to hurry up. Get off the building. We got to hurry up and get down. So this time, you know, the whole time I've been up, there was no fire. You know, no shooting going on. No. Nothing in my mind, though. I'm just like, at this point, there's no rush. Mortars keep coming in. We're all dead. These buildings are not designed to handle freaking mortar strikes. And, you know, it was by the grace of God that that building even stood by getting those three 81 millimeter mortars they say got hit by. And that's. That's insane. But where it hit was directly because the.

The walls over there, they were like, you know, about a foot and a half concrete walls, and that's where the mortars hit right in a row on those walls. I think that's the only reason why it stood. Wow. So I went over, you know, again, they're like, hurry up. You need to get off. I saw them. They kind of. They had Dave Uben, you know, the Delta Force guys. And again, about the only thing they really did was they built a backpack, kind of human backpack to get Dave Uben off the roof. So they got him down. And I'm just collecting the weapon systems. I'm going over. Went over to roan can, grabbed his guns, checking his pockets for, like, wallet or anything just in case we had to leave him because it may have happened. Right. So then, you know, before I left, I knelt down, said a prayer over him, Went over to Bob at the time, again, didn't know who the hell he was. Never worked with him. But again, same thing. Checking his pocket, checking for wallets, case, wedding ring, and didn't know. Trying to check as much gear as I could.

Said the prayer over him. Then I got down. At this time, they're just getting a stretcher around for Dave Ubin. So I go in, I drop all the weapons off. I go back Oz. They got him laying on the ground. So I'm stepping over him. They're cutting his clothes off. I go straight to the back, which ended up being our. Our medical room. I guess it was the kitchen, but it was our medical room. And I'm trying to open up the blast doors. That way they could bring him in through the back versus the front because he was jacked up, you know, void the. The Staffers from seeing it, I guess from seeing him, couldn't get the doors open and got up like a fraction of the way. And it was just too. I mean, that those borders jacked it up. So I go and I just grab three, four more tourniquets, and I got my pocket, put them in the backpack, start walking back around. And two other GRS guys actually end up having Dave Ubin. And they're walking in front. In passing by the two Delta Force guys again. At the time, I didn't know.

I knew. I thought they're just GRS guys. They're like, hey, where are you going? So I'm gonna go back towards the tower and watch that sector. And they're like, oh, you can't do that. Too dangerous. I'm like, what the you mean I can't do that? I've been up there all night. It's not. Dude. So we're like, having a shouting match. That's when the country team leader comes out. He's like, what the hell's going on? He's like, I need to go over there and watch the sector because it's unprotected. Delta Force guy's like, oh, it's too dangerous. You can't go over there. It's like, this. This is stupid. And then that's when team leader just. Just. Just go right here. Just, you know, just stand by right here. I'm just like, again, I got, you know, walls higher than the ceiling in here, and I'm like, going. This whole freaking area now is completely unprotected.

When did the Delta Force guys show up?

Just before the mortars hit.

How did they get there?

With the. With the team from Tripoli. So, yeah. So any. So we're just kind of just again, like, this is stupid. I mean, this is the dumbest security position ever, because people would be literally sneaking up to our wall right now and coming in. I wouldn't. We wouldn't even know. It's. All of our cameras got shot out in that whole corner. All of our lights got shot out. So it's completely unprotected. You know, Boone might be able to see some of it over there, but again, you still had a bunch of Shrub. You had a bunch of, again, sheep pens. They could be sneaking up on us and all kinds of shit. It's just like, this is so stupid. But then I think one of the case officers got a hold of another unit that was down there, and they had about 300 strong gun trucks, all that stuff. They showed up again. I think 7:38 in the morning, something like that. And that's when the. And I'm again, I'm just standing there like, this is so freaking stupid. The two Delta Force guys come back, said, hey, we got to get the guys off the roof.

And I'm like, okay, we, you know, there's a, we got a tow strap that we use to pull the tires as we're walking and telling them we can, I can go get it, we can lower them down. Like, oh, don't worry about it. We got this. So we just need you to come and pull security for, for us. So I go and I start going up the ladder, post security, right? Like, no, what are you doing? Just stay down here and wait. So how do you want me to pull security for you while you're up on the roof? While I'm down here and I got a wall that's like 10ft from me. This is again, this is like, this is stupid. So they're up on the ladder and I'm just kind of sitting there again, like, this is so freaking dumb. And in my mind I'm thinking, okay, they're gonna, you know, probably do the whole back backpack thing, you know, bring the guys down because we got time. Now we have, we have like three a 300 man militia surrounding our compound. They got gun trucks, they're in uniform, they're very well organized, very well structured.

So, you know, again, we had time. They lowered them down. And next thing I know, as I'm sitting here, I'm getting up, I'm looking this way, back this way again, it's another like a shed. So all I can really do is look forward. But even in front of me, I got a big ass generator house. So I really can't see. And next thing I know, I see a body get put up on top of the ledge. And, you know, I'm still probably, I don't know, good three feet, you know, from outside the ledge. And next thing I know, they just push him off. He comes down right next to me, smacks. I can hear the shoulder crunch, his head hit. And then you can see where he ran into the. Because we had like, like really thick kind of rose bushes, kind of sliced the stomach open a little bit and ended up being bub. And I'm just like, holy shit, I can't. They just did this. And then, you know, I'm still standing there and I going, I know it's fucking coming next. You know, the first one was kind of a shock. The other one was just fucking Miserable.

And again you just hear him come down smack. You know, you can hear the shoulder hit and then the head hits. And again, in my mind at least try to lower them down by their hands, something let them drop. But just to shove them off like that was disgusting. And then you know what they told the. The roan's wife and everybody's family was, oh, we got them off. Respectfully, that's not respect. That was. That was a disgrace. You know, nothing you could do about it. It was done. So couple other guys came around. I end up grabbing bub's arms and the other Urs guy grabbed his. His legs, carried him around, got him up on the bed. And I know the. Well, we go back to a little bit more because about the fight that we had sitting there that they, that they're saying that I lied about what they did. They're saying again, they're trying to tell everybody that they got them off dignified and all that crap. They're trying to say that the Delta Force, I hate bashing on guys. Kind of like the. Those dudes they got that kind of started this whole thing again.

But they, you know, they got an award saying they went up on the roof under fire and all this shit. There was no fire. I was the first one up on the damn roof.

You know, an award for that.

They got the second highest award, both of them. Second highest for going up on a roof. Yep. And getting Dave Ubinoff. That's all they did. And throwing Ronan Bob off. You know, so when that, when they came out and started attacking me saying I we lied about that, that I lied about it. Oh, you know, I was pissed. So I started going through all irrational reports. Well, there's actually another eyewitness proving that they threw the bodies off the roof in that report because he saw it through the back. Through the back door. He talks about it in Congress. So now they're actually trying to up. They're trying to get upgraded to the Medal of Honor as well.

They're trying to upgrade that to the Medal of Honor.

Yep. For showing up late. And in. In again, reading through his congressional report. They waited two to three minutes after the mortars hit to even come out. Dude, I was up on that roof in like 30 seconds. So anyways, so yeah, if you guys. Yeah, there's. There's a whole fight. I mean, you know, about that big fight and I was pissed. I was going off. Yeah. They're trying to slander saying that, you know, anyways, so just get them, get them up on and then me and Jack were supposed to be the drivers for the flatbed. Well, he, he kind of, he kind of came. Obviously he heard about Roan, but again, he didn't know anything about Bub either. And I guess he worked with Bub in the team. So he was on. They were on the same team together. And he saw him and I just saw him go white. He was just kind of like, holy. So he kind of got in the driver's seat and just kind of sat there. I looked. He's like, dude, you want me to drive? He's like, yeah. So we kind of swapped. We covered up. We covered them up with sheets the best we could.

So we end up going out. Everybody else is like, they're all in these sedans and all these fast freaking vehicles and we got this haji flatbed, two mile an hour truck. And we're just trying. I'm trying to drive this damn thing, you know, we went the long route, we went through the city which ended up being 13 miles. But I just remember the militia coming up next to us, like on the main highway. They're like, like the cars were gone. We're like back. Me and Jack are just back by ourselves with two militia trucks. And I'm like, I'm going as fast as I could in this damn thing, you know. So I'm just like, we're gonna get hit going to the airport. So we finally, we finally catch up while they were still sitting at the gate trying to get in. While the militia controlling the airport didn't like the militia that was escorting us. A lot of people don't understand is that militia that showed up, that kind of, that actually rescued us from that attack in the compound was Gaddafi's military. So they didn't even know. Again, our intel service didn't even know they were there, had no idea.

Jeez. So we get it. We finally get in there, we pull up to the, you know, the bird that Bub had come down in on and State Department guys start loading all their equipment that they pulled out of the consulate, start getting loaded up. Actually I went on the bird and I took my body arm because my side was killing me. Just kind of took it off, came back. So I thought we're all going to get on this bird and end up. Well, I didn't. So my body armor left with. Without me. So again, one of those other things I'll never do again. But so we get everybody on all the non essentials. And Oz, he, he kind of gets, he was being, I think he Might have the picture of it. I think I found it at one point. Anyways, he's in the back of the truck laying down, kind of bandaged up a little bit. Like one of the Militiamans took. Took a picture of it. But anyways, so very expensive jet. Very nice jet. It had a stewardess, very nice cabinets. And so when Oz starts walking up to get up onto the plane, you know, she's standing there and just kind of looking at him and just eyes get wide.

Next, you know, she takes off. You know, I'm kind of standing with Oz. I'm just kind of like, yeah, I don't know what's going on, you know, And I kind of. I turned and started doing something else when I guess because he was going up on the. He was just kind of going up there. And what happened? She was. She ran to the back to get a bunch of towels to come up. Oz, you know, he tells it. He's like, well, I thought she, you know, okay, I've still got, you know, a bunch of pop marks all over. I'm bleeding kind of all over these little holes. And he's kind of thinking like, okay, he's gonna wrap him up, cover him up. No, she started covering up all the seats and the floor and stuff with all these towels so he wouldn't drip blood everywhere. So Oz is kind of like, well, if you think I'm bad, just wait till the next guy comes on. They ended. We end up. They end up having to, like, rip the cabinets out of this plane so they can get Dave Ubin in because again, he's on the stretcher and stuff.

So they end up getting him in, get him on the plane. They bolt the plane up. About five minutes later, the door comes flying back open. Dude, the pilot jumps out, he's running all over the bottom of the plane. We're just like, what the hell's going on? Well, you know, everybody that works in the high threat environment has to qualify with the pistol. You know, they got to carry a gun, right? Doesn't mean they're technically qualified. Well, the maintenance guy pulled the trigger while he was in the plane, fired the gun. So now they're looking for this bullet. But as the pilots out there looking for it, they found it. It actually right where the. The seat post is. It hit right there and just stopped. There's that gap like this. The bullet would have went left or right. It would never took off. They said that when they finally got up the Tripoli, that if Dave u would have been another 10, 15 minutes he'd have been dead just because of so much blood loss. We couldn't. They couldn't stop the bleeding because again, stopped a lot with the arm. I think they. They ended up adding another tourniquet to his arm because it wouldn't stop.

But then he just had. Again, he was just blistered all over the place, so. Getting one of those God things, man. So we stayed back. We had the two Delta Force guys with us. A country team leader, our team leader, a linguist Jack Tonto, od. And one State Department guy. Yeah. So there's nine of us that stayed back. So as we're sitting there, plane had taken off, you know, Then the militia, they started coming over. They wanted, you know, what are we gonna do with the vehicles? We started divvying out the vehicles, and I'm looking at the back of the bed, and I'm like, I thought there was three guys. You know, we got our two guys. Where's the other guy at? And I started looking and I'm thinking, holy. They left. They left Sean's body in the car. So I see the SUV starting to pull away, and I'm just running for this suv and the. The blonde Air Delta guy, I think he was. I think that was the Marine. He's just like, dude, this Sean, and help me get Sean's body. So we had to start, you know, He. Luckily I stopped him.

He. Otherwise, we'd have not had Sean's body with us. So end up getting Sean's body. Grabbed it.

You got it?

Yeah. He ended up getting it out and getting it onto the flatbed again. I don't know why. Again, it's like we're doing all State Department's job, you know? But luckily I was in mind to actually, like, think otherwise. Who knows what happened. So after the vehicles left, the. The commander came up from that. From that militia and said, hey, we can go get your. We can go and recover the master's body. They had the numbers and they had the firepower because at the time, it was Ansar, Australia's, that was actually commandeering that hospital because that's where we're sending them to. So the militia commander, he went. Took him about 45 minutes or so, came back. We stopped the vehicle, you know, kind of away from us, myself, that same Delta Force guy. And Tonto walked up, you know, looked the ambassador over, just lift up his shirt, just make sure there was no incisions or anything like that. So again, that's how I know for a fact he wasn't tortured. Or mutilated. And, you know, he wasn't raped, so he still, you know, so. Oh, his belt buckle was over. Well, yeah. I mean, surprise, the belt buckle wasn't on backwards.

Who knows? I mean, happens in combat. But, you know, again, I went over that morning and saw him. He was wearing the exact same suit. You know, he had the same suit pants and, you know, he had the white undershirt. So he never had. He never even got out of his work clothes. So we brought him over, got him onto the flatbed, and then that's when, you know, I don't know, about 10 o' clock that. That morning, a Libyan C130 landed. Pulled off to the side. The team leader and the country team leader and the linguist went over there and I guess talked them into flying us out of there. Because at the time, we had no idea. We had no idea if we're gonna have to drive up or wait here, that bird's gonna turn around, come back and pick us up. Nobody really knew. So one thing was the airport was open. So we're sitting out there, we got belt Feds, you know, we kind of. We still had, you know, our guns were there, just not my body armor, you know, the airport planes are landing. We're just kind of sitting out there.

Big militia groups standing out there. People are just kind of looking out. It's just. It was just so real, man. Just like, holy, like, going on, like, that's life, man. So we take off. We land in. I think it was like they taken off. That's when everything started hitting me. Kind of like, okay, we're kind of safe, you know? And then to me, it was just replaying them getting thrown off the roof over and over. And that's what me up.

Yeah, I talked Tonto and Oz about it, and they said that that really, really haunts you.

Yeah. So, yeah, we landed, got them off, and then that's when, you know, when we put them on. On the plane, you know, we had their arms. So their arms are kind of sucked. I think Tanto talks about it. We had to snap them to get them to lay down and put them in the body bags and stuff. It's just one of those things you're not really thinking about at the time, honestly, the rigor, mortars and so that. That, you know, that. That was pretty shitty. But, you know, at least we got them home. There's a lot of guys, and they make it back home. So then we get to the annex, the CIA compound. We pull in, dude, just the road is just lined with luggage. I'm just like, what the is going on? Well, they pulled everybody from the embassy and told them all to pack up. So all their luggage was outside waiting to get the evacuated. So we go in, we get debriefed, we tell them, you know, our side, what happened, all this crap. And you know, to me, I didn't, I didn't really talk about the standout order because that was just more of an internal thing anyways, you know, but the more you know about things, you're just like you.

But anyways, so we go back and we kind of, we go, we get a little bit of lunch, take a little, little nap. And I think that's when hush kind of came around, got us. And hey, we're. You guys are kind of evacuated. Like, why die? Just stay here. Now they're going to send you guys back home. Makes no sense. You're better off standing here just in case something happens, protecting the compound, you know, like, okay, whatever. So we end up borrowing because, dude, my was all tore up, blood everywhere. So I ended up borrowing clothes from everybody else and get there. We get flown into, into triple. Here's what I want to tell you. We get flown into Tripoli. Tripoli. General Ham was there. He greets us off the bird. And we go in, USO's there. They have, you know, all kinds of stuff for us, right? But we got the whole entire embassy, which, I don't know, like 100 something freaking people. And remember that they had all their stuff, but we didn't even have our backpacks. We didn't have time to grab it. So we ain't got. Except for the clothes that we're wearing.

And they, you know, they start, you know, because I guess they didn't want to like let people know who we were or anything like that. Even the State Department guys that were, they were kind of sitting with us, not even with the State Department. And you know, they said, okay, come up, you know, grab the stuff that you need, you know, and you know, just take what you need, dude. By the time the guys were actually in Benghazi, everything was gone. All the embassy staffers took everything. Clothes, socks, underwear, toiletry, everything was gone. When we walk up, you could tell like, oh, you guys are the ones that were down there, huh? Like, yeah. So they end up giving us like each of like, I was like 500 credit cards, you know. But that wasn't the point. It was like, holy, you guys got all your. And they literally, I mean, pants, socks, underwear, shoes. They took it all it was like you, that's the State Department for you, though. So we wake up the, the, the. The State Department security guys. They were pretty much ordered to go talk to the FBI. We were asked if we wanted to go talk to the FBI and to us.

Why? There was no for. I mean, it was, it was an attack on a. It is what it is. I mean, it was an attack. How is this an FBI investigation? We're in a, you know, a high threat environment. Not really technically a war zone, but it's a war zone. What's the FBI gonna do? So we never talked to the FBI there. They kept us there until after they brought the guys home. The moment the ceremony was over with, they came down, said, you guys can go home, but you got to buy your own ticket. So we were able to finally leave the. The following day. Flew to dc, Stayed there for about three days, debriefed twice, saw the medical because my lungs were just cooked from smoke, the fire. And I think it was about a week when I. After that, when I was able to finally go home. So about a total week before I actually made it home home. So that's the story.

How were you graded at hq?

Pretty good.

They're.

I mean, yeah, it was, it was a pretty good greeting at that time. And they were showing us around. I think they had. No, not at that time. The second time I came back, I mean, I had no negativity really from them until, I think, until. Until Tonto started the rumors about him doing a book, him and Oz. That's when it kind of. The treatment got a little bit different. But I also wasn't part of it initially. I didn't even know they were doing it, but because I went back two more times, so, I mean, it was, you know, you do it for long enough, there's a lot of little scrapples you kind of get involved with. It's just. That's the one that everybody knows about. So.

So did these Delta guys, did they see it was over when they showed up?

Yeah.

Is it all the way over?

I mean, they were there when the mortars hit, but that was it. They didn't come out. They didn't shoot a gun, they didn't fire. They were never out in the open under fire, nothing.

And they got. They got the second highest award.

Yep. For army and Marines was. What is the Navy Star, I think, or something like that?

Navy Cross.

Navy Cross, yeah.

And they're going to be upgraded to the Battle of Honor.

That's. Yep, I read it. Yeah, they're trying to get upgraded to the Medal of Honor, which to me it's just a slap in the, It's a disgrace to that award. So I'm, I'm doing my best to fight it, but again, it's, you know, I mean, I've even told a couple of med of Honor recipients. It's like this is degrades what the purpose of it is.

What do they say?

They can't really do anything. It's. It's up to some committee and crap, which again, you try to get a hold of, try to email nothing. So. And it goes like, like those. If those guys get that award, I don't have to be able to look at a Medal of Honor the same way ever again. Because I'll be thinking the same thing. Like, you didn't earn that and people.

Came after you for this.

Yeah, I mean I, I had the other, the other Delta Force podcast came at me, some other journalists that does Fox News came at me for it saying that we lied. Because they're saying the Delta Force guys are saying that I lied, that they got him down. Respectfully. They were up on the roof under fire. All this horseshit. Again. I was up there. I was, I was going to a third individual, put on two tourniquets, looked one over, putting on another tourniquet, look one over getting him up, moving him, going to the third individual before anybody got up on the roof. So, I mean, I was up there for a while.

Have they stopped coming after you?

I haven't heard anything yet, but I mean, that could just have blocked me again. I only, I only saw it like at last it was. Again, it was on Fox News. I was scrolling through it like saying that we fabricated the book. The book was full. I was like, what the hell is this? And that's when I read the Delta Force guy saying this and this. And I was like, oh, hell no. So I kind of went in, went at them and you know, they're trying to say, you know, we, we put this out there. Nobody reached out. Actually. They talked about on the show how Boone's team, they. And they laughed it off, although he tried to reach out again. It was just a bunch of horseshit. All they do is try to tear guys down. I mean, and you know, you got other operators trying to tear other operators apart, which is horseshit in my opinion. You know, if somebody does says over exaggerate something, I don't really care, you know, but again, if, if you're going to sit there and tell me that I lied about it. I'm gonna have a big problem with it.

And so again, I went through. That's a lot of congressional hearing stuff to read through. Again. Found his statement contradicts what he says, even in his own freaking citation that he was given. But he would. What he testifies in Congress contradicts his own citation. And then this other guy, again, he says why. Contacted the Special Forces operations command within 24 hours and he said, no, his awards are good. No, nobody's gonna get back to you that fast, period.

Who is that?

That. The. I forgot what the guy's name is. He's like the big. Usually, I guess he does more sports crap. Buddies. Buddies. Buddies with the Delta Force guys that do do that podcast.

So this is the anti hero podcast.

Yeah, but it's the other guy that they. They use, I think, too. Also, this is some kind of big podcaster as well. I can't remember his guy's name, but so far, when. When I, When I did my whole, like, I did a whole video on it and stuff, even Roan's mom got a hold of me because she heard about it. She's all, hell no, because she did her own investigation into. So she knows the truth. Because I told her. She. And they were telling her that. That they got Roan off. Respectfully. So when I went. When we got a fake award from the agency, they came up to me and they're like, hey, hey. You know, you remember when we were under fire up on the roof? No.

They tried to. They tried to tell you that we.

Were under fire on.

Tried to basically manipulate you into saying that they were under fire on them.

The. Yeah.

On the rooftop.

Yeah. And then Row, Rowan's wife wanted to talk to me, but I couldn't talk to her at that time because I was still dealing with them getting tossed off the damn roof. How am I going to tell the wife that? But I guess they had already told her that they got him off. Respectfully.

Who are these guys? Do you have their names?

I don't right off the. Their wards are public, so it's. It's. It's disgusting. So. But, you know, we did get a really good coffee coaster award from the agency.

What?

A coffee coaster? We got on an award that's probably about as big as this, maybe. Maybe bigger. They gave it to the cook and the. And the maintenance guy and the staffers, too.

You know, with this podcast coming out about all these guys, I mean, there's a. There's.

It's.

It's tricky, you know, and and one of them that just got hammered. I mean, he came in here and over embellished, lied about his entire service record. And I think that's disgusting. And it takes. It takes away.

It does.

From people like you and every other person that's come in here and sat across me and documented their service, what they were a part of, historic events like Benghazi. And that takes away from the story. And I can appreciate that. You know, at the same time, if you don't have your facts straight, people commit suicide over this. Shit.

No.

They commit suicide over this.

It's crazy.

And it is destroying lives.

Yeah. It destroys the whole community. It does. It does a lot of damage again.

And at the same time, some of the records needed to be set straight.

No, I agree. But to go out and.

But you have to be very tactful. Careful.

Yeah.

When you broach these type of topics, because if you do it wrong, that's.

Yeah.

You are the problem.

Yep. Kind of like what they did to me.

Do you have anything to say to them?

No, I think I've kind of already have. And I'm. They're like, well, you can come on the podcast. Like, why would I come onto your podcast when you can have the balls to reach out to me initially and. And ask.

He didn't even reach out to you?

No, none of. Neither. None of them did. I'm easy to get a hold of. I'm. I'm pretty much a public figure, so for them to have an excuse. So we couldn't. They did this. They did this. I didn't. So I don't think I saw. Saw what they did until, like, April, and they did it, like in November of last year. I had no idea until I saw that guy's report on Fox News.

Why do you think the journalists targeted you? Where did this stem from?

So I went after him because he. He again, he slandered me and on. On Fox News, so I came after him. And then that's when the. The other podcast popped in. And so I was actually doing them both at the same time. I'm not very. I won't. Yeah. I won't back down. I really don't care.

Good for you.

So I went at him. Yeah. And I, you know, obviously their community came at me, and I just fired right back. You.

Who's their community?

Well, whoever watches audience. Yeah, there's some other people or what other Delta Force guys that came at me and again, I. I kind of threw their whole. Their whole model back at them and, you know, forgot exactly what their motto is. But then some other guys, like, well, you can't be using that. You're not this, like. I'm not saying I'm not. That's their model is like, you know, their own models. Like, you know, don't go after your own brothers. But what are they? That's their whole podcast. So, yeah, there are some other people in their community. Not. Not a lot, but in whatever. I'll stand. I know where I stand.

Good for you, man. Why do you think these guys are chasing this award anyways? Most. Most guys I don't know.

Again, I didn't know they even had the second highest award until this. I had no idea what they got. Like, whatever.

What is the claim in the award?

They were. They rendered aid under fire. And the biggest one again, the rendered aid under fire and they escorted unarmed civilians to safety. Both of those. That's all a lie. They didn't render aid under fire. Yeah, they rendered aid and. But they never even escorted any. All of us were armed. I mean, we're all agency personnel then State Department in a high threat environment. Every one of us were armed. But for me, I mean, it's the whole rendering aid under fire crap. No, he didn't. Because even if you rendered aid afterwards, it definitely wasn't under fire.

And all three of you guys have the same story because I talked to all three of you about it.

Well, again, if you read the book, how we did the book, none of us ever talked to each other. That's the thing about that book. We never talked to each other. We never discussed anything. Never had a chance to. Because I went back to work. I think maybe Oz and Tonto did, but even then I don't know how much they would have. So when I said, yeah, I'll finally do it, the author is. What he wanted us to do was just tape record what we saw, what we did and send it to him again. Jack is over here. Tonto's. And again, I never again, I never talked to Jack, Tonto or Odd until after I sent my recordings in for the book. So what he did, he took all our recordings and just meshed them together. That's how he came up with the book. This is probably one of the most factual books that I know of. You could have done between five people.

Why do you think some of the guys never went public?

Jack is still working. He's still doing.

He's still working.

Still do it. Not for the agency or anything like that, but plus he has a little like small mom and Pop kind of a business. So he just kind of wanted to keep that out. But yeah, he still does high security stuff in the States. He. Seals are just nuts, man. He's like to keep working. So. Yeah, that's why he didn't. And then Bone, he finally came out. Yeah, I think he was just stuck in the closet, lost the key or something. I don't know.

She did want to revisit it.

Yeah. But I think he went. He was working too. He was still doing stuff as well. And I think that's why.

Yeah, I met him in Yemen, so.

But yeah, I mean initially I was, I was going to be. I wasn't going to come out public either.

Why not?

Just didn't really want to deal with. I kind of wanted to work still too. And I was. I would say I kind of got talked into it by the author because, you know, he. Because I was kind of like in the. Every major portion of it. But also I was the one that got told to stand down. So it's kind of like, you know, it's going to be their word. You know, they're gonna, they're. They did kind of attack us, but not as hard as we thought. But he was like, if you don't, it's going to be kind of like they're gonna have to use your word to defend themselves versus you coming out and be able to defend it directly. So it was like the day before, it was like I had to tell him yes or no.

So how long did you take off before you went back to work?

It was. It took me about six months to heal up.

What was it like going back to work?

Pretty normal. I mean I went back and then had actually did a video test, testified in front of the Senate committee, which, which was weird because they actually, when I was testifying to tell us, they actually had Bob and Hush on the video conference. So it was just kind of. I don't know, it was just.

They had those two on the conference call. How was that?

So they would answer. I could tell they were. They would hurry up and answer questions that I would probably going to say different too. And I just sat there. I was like, whatever, especially the stand down order. Bob answered that one really quick. And then what did he say? He pretty much said, well, I don't remember if there was this. You know, it's probably because of like I was waiting for support. Yeah, that's what it was. It's because. Oh, there wasn't. You know, that's not probably, that's not really What I said or if I did, I didn't mean it that way. And then when I went and testified in front of Congress, Hush answered it really quick because when I went and testified I was with Hush again. I'm just kind of like they don't. Yeah. And I'm not that person. Like if you don't ask me, I'm not going to answer for you kind of a thing. I mean, is it a big deal? I mean it's a big deal because two people got died from it because you had somebody who was a. Who was in the. Actually both of them. If Hush didn't know, I don't know if he knew or not that that 75 wasn't coming at that time.

But I mean his decision to make us wait when he knew nobody was coming got two people killed directly. So again, at the time I think that's why they were doing what they were doing because again he was retiring 30 year agency guy and everybody was trying to cover their own assets for the mistakes that were made. And again instead of holding people accountable, they got promoted. I mean they all. The team leader, Hush and Bob the country team leader, they all got the intel star. And if people don't know that's equivalent to the model of honor they didn't give us and we don't do it for that. But again, it just goes back to like a slap in the face.

Yeah, it definitely goes to show you what this is actually all about.

Me. It's just. That's all it was. It was just them bureaucracy. Yep. Them cover up each other's asses. That's why you watch, you know, Don Bangino and this is what is the post like the, that I've seen, I'll never forget like this country is. That's kind of what I got from that just because of the corruption.

I'm sorry, man. How are you doing today?

I'm good. Yeah, Gotta, you know, got, you know, got divorced and got remarried. You know, did a 180 and she's a very religious Christian lady, but she's been really good. She's been helping me quite a bit, you know, dealing with a lot of different things. You know, when I was going through, you know, pretty much like in 2020, kind of started my own divorce path and it just kind of really taken more of a big. And then, you know, 2023 found her when I was running for mayor the first time and just kind of turn, turn everything around.

How'd you meet her?

She was. Did an interview with me then she.

Did an interview with you?

Yeah. So she's got her version of how it happened. I got my real version of how it happened. So. So again, I did. I jumped in the mary race in 23, like, last minute. I mean, I didn't really know what I was. I just wanted to throw a wrench in the system and just try to get things actually done. And I don't like. I don't. I'm just gonna be direct. I don't like. If I don't really know something, I'm gonna tell you. I'm not gonna like a lot of these. When I was up there, when I. When I started doing the interviews or the panels, whatever, their answers started changing to what my answers were. It was like, you. They're all. Like, all these politicians. They just. They're all fluffed. They. They change their answers for the audience. I don't change for anybody. Yeah, I don't really care. But anyway, so I was doing my Coming out of the Closet launch, and she found out about it. Normally, she wouldn't show up to the local races and stuff like that, but, you know, she got hit up by, like, three people. And so she finally came, and then my manager.

And my manager. Yeah, I guess my manager kind of hit her up to do an interview with me, and then we kind of did our interview, and then she started stalking me. She won't say it, but that's the truth. So she started coming in, doing some training. So I was doing a training also at DCF Guns, and so. And she was actually going over to another Magnum. That was there. She was there. And then she. She canceled that membership, joined dcf. And then, you know, we kind of started talking a little bit more. And she'd use excuses like, hey, the security team at Charis Bible College wants to meet you. You. I mean, they did, but it was her just stalking me is what it was. And. And then we just kind of kept on from there. And then eventually we had lunch and just kind of kept going, and. Yeah, then once I got married, she stopped training, so that's how I know she was talking me.

Right on, man.

But no, that's kind of how we met. I mean, it was. Yeah, she's been a big blessing.

So good for you, man.

It's probably actually all the. I don't have to go into the music stuff yet, but kind of start pushing that stuff out.

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Most of us, it's not a positive story, you know, and being through something like what you went through in Begazi, I mean, how did that affect your home life and reintegration? How was it coming home? I mean, you had seven month old twins.

I Mean, it was nice because I was able to see him. I mean, we were talking about a little bit on the break, but, you know, it was the first time having kids and dealing with something like that. So, you know, when I remember just being in the back of the car, my biggest things, like, you start going back home normally. Never. You just deal with it, you know, you don't. I never thought about home this time. It's just kind of like, holy crap, I might never see the kids again. They'll never knew who I was. You know, never get to see them growing up. That starts playing in your head.

Were you thinking about that that night?

Yeah. I mean, again, sitting in that car just waiting to roll, and it's just like, no, you gotta squash it out. You know, you gotta stay focused. Because, you know, again, having kids for the first time, it was just. It was weird. It was different. But, you know, once we started actually rolling, it kind of went. And then when I was in the tower, like during the intervals, you know, your mind starts going back home sometimes and just like, you try to get it out that way you can just focus because, you know, if your mind's wandering, something comes up on you. Man, that's bad.

Yeah.

So I'm just trying to stay focused on it. But, you know, coming back home real.

Quick, I want to ask one other thing.

Yep.

What prayers did you say over Bubs in Rome?

So I wrote it down at kind of when we're doing the book. I did write it, but I didn't say what it was because at the time, to me it just felt like it was just something that was between me, them and God. But it was, you know, Lord, watch over our fallen warriors, for they have made the ultimate sacrifice. Guide them. Guide them to. Guide them to your side and help your angels ensure that no more fall tonight. Because again, we now we just lost four. And then, I don't know, like verbatim right off the top of my head. But. And it was a watch over their families for what they're gonna. What they're what. What they're gonna experience and you know, just what they're going to face, just the turmoil they're going to go through. And my thing was just trying to guide them, you know, back with as much light as possible so they can heal fast and go forward. Because again, Roan, he just found out also that he was just having a kid. So that's kind of some of the stuff that was going through my head was just the stuff that their family's going to have to deal with back home, you know, because, you know, to me I think somebody, somebody dying is not.

And to me is not really a sad thing because they're actually going home. We're. We're all away from home. I'm ready to go home, you know. You know, but when the time is the time. And so, but for me it's just the, the turmoil that we kind of deal with when we do lose people. So for them it's not sad, you know, because again, they're, they're gone, they're home. But for us, again, we were, you know, we're just kind of dealing with how to. How do we move on from seeing. So when I was kind of thinking about us just being protected because we. I didn't know what was going to happen. And just for the family, me having kids, knowing he was just getting ready to have a kid and stuff like that, again, said the same thing over Bob, but then didn't know him. But still, same mindset.

Damn, man. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah. So again, just listen to people. Again, the wife kind of drives certain things out that I usually wouldn't talk about. But again it goes back to like, just stuff like that may help somebody. If it only helps one person, that's enough.

Yeah. So do you think about them a lot?

Yeah, I would say so. But again, it's, it's, you know, when I do my speaking events and you know, saying their names, for me, it just, it keeps them going forward, it keeps them alive. You know, they always say, you know, you've only for. Truly forgotten when your name's spoken for the final time.

So were you close with Tyrone?

No, again, just. He was, he was that. That normal. Like I would say for everybody calls a master chief, but to me he's got like a gun. He just had that gunny attitude, you know, always had a coffee. So I can only relate to as a Marine Corps side. So. But no, he was always cool, laid back. You know, we talked a lot about cows. I had cattle at the time and stuff. They were actually going to buy some beef from me and. But again, 30 days you kind of get to know people, but not really. Again, my background, I'm very kind of still I'm more open now. But I was back, even back then I was more kind of quiet, standoffish, didn't trust anybody.

Well, I think we've established why.

So like me getting to know people, it takes a while.

So what was it? What were your struggles coming back?

I never had nightmares. I Had a. I did have hard time sleeping and getting a pretty good. I think I had actually had the TBI from. From the. The one in Pesh. That attack. Again, never seek medical attention for that whatsoever. But I felt weird after that one. But this one, I think just being around the explosion, so close to him and just consistent more. I just couldn't sleep again. Didn't have nightmares or nothing like that. So for me, it was just kind of just getting medical issues taken care of because he couldn't go to the VA for it because we were contractors at the time and technically they didn't want you going to VA because it was still classified. So they had. They picked the doctor that you went and saw. So just dealing with that. I mean, I had all kinds of weird stuff like, dude, my body would just swell up. Kind of like I had diabetes or something. It was just weird. Like I couldn't wear watches or nothing because my wedding ring. Couldn't wear because my whole body was. Would just. It would just swell up like, just weird.

Just at random. What was it from? Did they figure it out?

They didn't figure it out. They kind of. They gave up pretty much.

Were you boozing?

Nope.

Drugs?

Nope.

Nothing?

Nope.

That is almost unheard of.

Yeah, it was. It was weird, man. But then the va, they gave me some kind of. They did give me a. Like a sleeping pill, but it was like a psychotic sleeping pill. And, dude, that's when I had. I actually started dreaming and it was. I was dreaming about Benghazi, but it never happened the way, like one time I was climbing through freaking rafters with Roan and. And even Oz. I'm like, oz, what the is going on? We didn't climb through. Oz wasn't even here, you know, kind of thing. I mean, he was there, but he wasn't like in the. Over at the consulate and stuff. And then again, just weird scenarios that were going on, but it was all in Mangazi. And then the last one was. I don't know how my kids showed up. When my kids showed up, I ended up chopping their heads off. What. Now's the last time I took it. I woke up, said this. I never took any sleeping aid ever again. So. And I think a lot of veterans, they. They sit there and they say they have this kind of stuff, but they keep taking it because you do sleep.

I mean, I was sleeping, yeah, but I was like this. It ain't worth it. So I've never took anything for sleep since. And then it was just that. I mean, just Weird medical problems. And actually, I got a thing called relapsing polychonderitis, which they don't even know where it comes from. Only, like 10American. 10 people in our country even have it. So it's a. It's an autoimmune that attacks your cartilage. And usually it's already attacked my ears. The next is usually the nose. Then after that, it goes for your. Your esophagus. That's when you die. So. But I still. I mean, they say within about 10 years, if you're still alive, you'll be good. I got another five years because that. That was diagnosed in 2020. Jeez. So for me, coming back, it wasn't really difficult. I didn't really have a. A hard time. Again, for me, honestly, for the whole thing, it was just hearing them getting tossed off that roof. Honestly, everything, that's. That's the hardest thing for me. So.

No depression, suicide attempts, Nothing?

No, but I'm pretty sure I had some depression. I mean, kind of quit doing what I wanted to do. We got, you know, pretty much screwed over on the book and movie deal.

How'd you get screwed over on the book?

Well, we don't. We get no residuals from book sales or movie or anything.

Is that from them or is that the agency intervening?

I do. We don't know. According to them, the book didn't sell enough. The movie didn't make enough, so we don't get shit.

Number one New York Times bestseller. It's right on the fucking cover.

Yeah, according to them. Nope.

It's one of the only movies I've ever watched that has to do with what we used to do.

Well, dude, if you look at the reviews, it's got like 15,000 reviews and still almost five stars. But, no, the actors, they're making. They're making a shit ton of money from it. We don't make. And it's just how we got screwed over, I guess. You know, the same people that helped us do the book kind of did the movie as well. And we kind of thought we had everything covered in there. We. But again, this just, you know, liberal Hollywood is over. Remember, we didn't do it for the money. It's good. That story's out there. It's permanent. You can't change it. But, yeah, a lot of people think, oh, you get. You know, they. Well, they call it blood money. But even if it. Whatever. We don't get anything from it unless we sell it. Unless you buy it from us directly. We don't get Anything.

That's a shame. What? You guys were involved with the making of the movie, though, correct?

Yep.

How involved?

Once. So once you do the movie, or they're going to do it, you have to sign your life rights. So you can. Don't. They're only going to do so much, and. Because they have 100% control. So I like to laugh because. Anyways. Because I stand my ground on. I don't care. Once. Anyway, so, you know, we went in, we talked to Michael Bay. They gave us, like, the movie script the day before. I don't know how to read a movie script. I don't. You know, I'm reading this stuff, and I'm like, I don't know what the hell they're even talking about, you know, because they're talking. Because, again, they're leading up to it. And I'm like, yeah, whatever. I'm not gonna be able to read this the whole night before. We're just gonna see him tomorrow. We're gonna walk through it, talk through it. So we did. We walked through things. They showed me, you know, what the set was gonna look like. I'm like, yeah, this set's not right. So that, like, the movie set for the Annex, That's. Dude, it's pretty accurate. I mean, that's probably 99 accurate. I was like, well, there's trees here.

There's. It's like, we're not doing that, dude. So. But for the most part, the. The art. The annex is pretty good. The. The consulate is pretty far off. But again, they, you know, you got to deal with the layout of the land and stuff like that. So when we're there, we got to go on set for 10 days. And I was sitting there, they were doing the. This. The attack scene. So it was kind of cool to watch. But again, I don't really know, like, because they're doing, like, the same thing, like, for an hour straight. I don't know how people do it. But anyways. And Michael Bay, as they're filming whatever they're doing the whole action, he comes walking up and he says, hey, so you got shot? And again, like, yeah, I got shot. Where'd you get shot? I got shot in the side. He goes, okay, you're going to get shot in the chest. Okay, whatever, you know. So it's just things like that that you just really can't control. But so they did it all. And then I think I went home, and then Jack calls me and he's saying, hey, I just found out that they're not Going to put you up on the roof.

I'm like, what do you mean? So it's just going to be me up on the roof. And I'm like, no, that ain't gonna happen. It's like. And they're. And they're not showing that the Delta Force guys threw them off the roof. And I said, well, if they're not going to put me on the roof and show the truth, I don't want nothing to do with it. You can tell them all to off. So next thing you know, I think I forgot who. Like, the producer guy calls. He says, hey, you know, we just. This is why. I'm like, I really don't care why. If I'm not on the roof and you're not showing what they did, you can. And off. And I hung up on him. Michael Bay calls, said the same thing to him. And then finally the pres. The par. President, Paramount, whatever dude's name was at the time, called and I hung up on him. Yeah, I don't really care. I will not be on if you don't put me on the roof. Don't show what they actually did. You can all off. Well, they fixed it. That's what I mean. It goes back to like, I really don't care.

It's like there's a certain ground where people just need to stand. And they didn't do it then. I just wouldn't promote the movie. I wouldn't want nothing to do with it.

Good for you, man.

So even more now that we didn't. We don't really get anything from it, but it was just about, you know, like, you need to show what really happens. And a lot of things in Hollywood, like Michael Bay is like, well, we're doing it this way because we need to have more action. I'm sorry, I didn't know you were. I didn't know we didn't have enough action for everybody. Like, holy. So, yeah, it's just. But I mean, they did a good job with it. It honored the four guys and that was their biggest thing. They left politics out of it. That was another goal with the book and the movie. We didn't want politics in it because politics were not involved when we're in the middle of the fight. Politics came from politicians. We didn't. We didn't invite the politics into this. It was everyone else that did it. So again, we get, you know, we're doing the book tour and all this. Even the movie, we'd get. We'd get hit up, you know, Bashed by the left a lot, saying, all you're doing is because it's political. You did that. And, like, what the fuck are you guys talking about is like.

Like, we're not going to watch. It's all. It's like they don't even give the book or the movie a time because they think it's political. There's nothing political in the book or in the movie, but that's. That's their mindset. And, you know, I remember we got this old lady one time we were in Boulder, and she came at us saying, I can't believe you guys left the ambassador to die. You just abandoned him. And just like, he wasn't our job. We risk our lives to go and save them. So it's like a lot of people don't even know what happened, but yet you get yelled at. You know, you get, like, degraded for something you had no control over.

What the man.

Yeah, the book tour was interesting.

Sounds like it.

So. But no, I mean, again, coming back home, to me, the hardest thing was just getting the medical treatment and. And then trying to do speaking events because, again, I was a quiet guy. You met Boone, right?

Met him several times.

I was quieter than he was.

Are you serious? That dude does not talk.

Yeah. Wow. So, yeah, so, again, I would. It took me a while. Like, I mean, like the first, like, six months. I think Tonto answered every question that was asked to me. So I think, you know, I've come out of my shell quite a bit and.

Well, you've got to. If you're going to run for mayor.

Right. You better start talking. I'll probably still not be a typical politician.

God, I hope not. We got way too many of those.

Yeah. I mean, you know, then I, you know, get involved in a lot of these other veteran organizations and foundations, and I think that helped quite a bit, you know, because then you're more. You're not focusing on yourself. You're kind of helping other guys, and it kind of helps you at the same time. But then you do got some guys. I mean, I still. I did a couple. What was like with Sauce special or Save a Warrior, you know, went to their retreatment. So I did my own things as well as helping other guys because again, you want to sit there as a vet, say, oh, you need to go do this, but if you don't do it yourself, you're kind of doing everyone else a disservice. You're being dishonest.

Yeah.

So you still. I mean, if you're going to be part of it, you still got to help fix yourself. Otherwise, you know, you see guys that take their own lives and stuff like that and. Because, you know, was that one was. I think his name was Jocko. He was a pretty good vet. That was like in the whole 22 kind of thing, helping guys out constantly. The next thing you know, he's gone. It's just like, again, if you're gonna. Seeing other people help, I think it's been. For me, it helps me knowing that I kind of helped them in a way.

Who's this? I know, Jocko.

But it was a different one, though. Not the one again. He's from Texas. Yeah. If somebody. That's the name that's coming in my head though. The other one.

There's been a lot.

Yeah, it's. It's sad, you know, but some of it, I don't always think it's combat related. I think it's home life related. They just don't know how to deal with that portion of it. Yeah. At least that's what I've kind of seen. I think sometimes not the. Go off on the spouses, but again, I think sometimes the spouses aren't truthful what happens in their. Inside their family life, which again, keeps this. This thing going forward without actually being able to truly fix it. That's my opinion. Just because I've been around it so much and I see so much stuff. Yeah, guys suffer. They see things. But I think it's a lot of. It's just that stress of the home life and that's what gets to him.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you deal with any type of survivor's guilt or anything like that?

No, because my mindset kind of goes down. Like, we all knew what we're getting into. We all knew what we wanted to do and we were, we. We volunteered to go there. We'd always want everybody to come home when we can. But also I think it goes back to like, we didn't have that solid brotherhood either. You're like, I'm not. Again, like, I don't want active duty guys to say off, you know, kind of you. Well, you know, we weren't there for a year. Four years, five years, six years together, you know, 30 days.

You know, you didn't have time to build that kind of camaraderie.

So it's a little bit different. I mean, it still hits you regardless.

Yeah.

I mean, you're still. You're still a brotherhood. You want to fight for each other. You're Americans. You're fighting for the same Thing, but you know, I just don't want to take that away from other guys that have that. That's not what I'm saying. Just we didn't have that ability to build that type. But you also got to remember you all signed up for that job, that it comes, death comes with it. It's, it's just, it sucks. But having that survivor guilt, I mean, if, if you passed, would you want him doing the same thing you're doing for me for. It's more about doing better or keep going. I have a thing that always says, always move forward because if, if you digress versus progress, it does them a disservice. It dishonors their sacrifice in my mind. So maybe just trying to keep on doing. I mean, you're always going to have failures. I mean, you're always going to, you know, it's not every day everything's perfect, you know, but it's just trying to do your best, you know, to honor them by doing better, keep going forward and make things better for our country. Make their sacrifice mean something.

What advice do you have for guys kind of getting out, coming home for.

Today, have a plan, have, you know, a lot of guys you talk to like, they get out, they're like, I don't even know what the hell I'm going to do. If you don't know, don't get out. That's the worst thing you can do. Have something, have something in mind to go and do, you know, is. That's what I hear the most out of a lot of guys, even retired guys. But they don't have to worry about income. But they're just kind of like, I don't even know what to do. It's like, yeah, you knew you were getting out at least a year before he got out. That thing is you have to start planning for something. Yeah. Don't go to college, go to a trade school. Just if you don't have an actual skill. That's. I mean, I started in H vac. It was all, you know, hands on labor stuff. But I'm not a college kid, so I went to trade school. But you learn the job you want to know versus, you know, a lot of college. You got to take 20, 30 other courses and it costs you an extra 200 grand.

It doesn't have nothing to do with what you want to learn. But for guys get, just have a plan, man. Don't just get out. That's the dumbest thing you can do if you don't have a plan. You better stay In. Because that's my opinion.

I think that's good advice. So you're running for mayor in Colorado Springs. What prompted that?

I love chaos. No, so, you know, it stemmed initially from 2020, but yeah, from 2020. So that's why I kind of jumped in in 2023. I was very vocal in 2020. I hated the shutdowns. I hated that. That stupid socialism lockdown, just infringement crap. It pissed me off. So I did a lot of things in Colorado trying to tell business just open up. They can't shut you and they can't. They can't shut you all down. They can't. Otherwise they destroy the whole entire city anyways. So I did things up in Denver. Pissed off, you know, the police up there. I think he. One time he called me a stupid, selfish bastard because I wanted. I. I was up there, had. I think I had like 4,000 something people show up, bunch of dudes on motorcycles. I mean, it was a bike ride from all four corners of Colorado. It was pretty cool. And because for me, for the government to tell us that we can't do something is. We tell the government what it can't do, it doesn't tell us what we can't do. So I started really pushing back on that. And, you know, cops arresting parents in parks with their kids.

No. Oh, hell no. To me, that's that. You, as a cop, you should retire. You need to throw away that badge because you're a disgrace.

I'm with you on that one, man. I can't. I can't listen to another person that's just saying, I'm just doing my job.

Oh, no. Yeah.

Then quit.

Yep. I'm on 100.

Get a new job.

Your job. She's. Well, that's just. If you're just following orders when you can just go enjoy prison the rest of your life. My opinion, because you're violating somebody else's rights. That's how I am. I'll back the blue. But again, that doesn't. Your. Yeah. Your lack of knowledge does not supersede my freedoms.

Yeah.

So. So then, you know, 23 came around. I was starting. Starting a new job because I got tired of, like, traveling so much. And I was. I was taking lunch and I saw on the news, you know, you have, like, so long to sign up and then so much longer to get the signature you need to, you know, to run for mayor. I think I had, like two days to get my packet in, and then I had, like two weeks to get my signatures. It was right before Shot Show. I was like, I'll just do it. So I got up, went down to the again. I had no, no idea what I was gonna. I was just gonna do it. Went down there, got the packet, came back, had a friend come over, filled out the paperwork, finished it that night, turned it back, turned it in the next morning, got my place, my stuff to go get my signatures. You know, the 200. You had to get 200 signatures. And that's. Then I had to come to shot show. So they're doing that. I got like 200 signatures the first weekend when I was gone.

Came back, got another 200, turned it in that Monday. And then I got on the ballot. And then they tried to remove me from the ballot.

Why'd they try to remove you from the ballot?

Because supposedly two people came in to the administration's office, said I didn't live in Colorado Springs. So I asked him, so who are my accusers? Apparently you can't face your accusers in those incidents. People can just accuse you, whatever. So I had to prove that I lived in Colorado Springs for over a year. It wasn't hard.

Seems pretty easy.

Yeah, but I'm just like, this is stupid. And then they try to fight me on putting John Tig Teigen on the ballot. Like, well, that's a trademark name. I can put. Actually, I can put anything I want on the ballot. So I got a fight. It was. Everything I did in the first round was a fight. So anyway, so I got on, you know, I think it panicked a little bit of the other. It's a bipartisan, supposedly, or not a. Yeah, it's unaffiliated run. But I think, I still think the Democrats kind of freaked out and they saw me jump on. And I think it went up to like a million dollar race. I raised like, I raised like 20 grand. But again, I knew I didn't have a chance. That wasn't the point. The point was to do what I did. And this time I'm doing it again for the same reason again. My goal is the mayor can only do so much. I think people need to realize that. Which when I was running the questions they're asking you, even from the media, the mayor doesn't have no control over. So that's the hard part for me was trying to figure out what can the mayor actually, because I'm not a politician, never wanted to do it, and now I'm just like, screw it, I'm gonna do it.

Now you can piss me off, but, you know, they're asking things like A mayor can't control. That's more like a city council or that's the county commissioners. It's just like, what's wrong with you people? So. But I want to give more control back to the people, back to the community, and even back to the police. Because if you look and see what happens around this country, especially with police chiefs and certain mayors, they'll tie the hands of cops, and they can't do anything with criminals. They can't do anything. Again, like this mayor, he's tying our police chief chief's hands. Regardless. He wants to admit it or not, because I know people, too. They won't. He won't allow the local law enforcement to work with federal agents to wrap up these criminals. These illegals, to me is like, no, they're one police. The number one job is to protect the community. Anyone who's violating our community need to be wrapped up again. If they're healed legally, they violated it. So my. My goal, in a way, I don't know, again, still looking into things, but trying to make it to where even though the mayor may still pick the police chief, he can't dictate what he does.

Like, as long as he's within the Constitution, the mayor has no control. You shouldn't have to control that police chief. Just like the sheriff. You can't control the sheriff. Yeah, but people say, well, you need to build and make sure your town's taken care of. It's like, as long as you put in there, like, he has to abide by the US Constitution, the state constitution. That's all he needs to do. That's what you should be doing anyways. The mayor shouldn't be stopping, shouldn't be hindering, shouldn't be influencing, shouldn't be doing a damn thing with law enforcement. So again, it's just like. It's just like the president kind of having control over the FBI and having them do a raid on the. On a former president because he wants to. That's bullshit. You shouldn't have that type of control because that's what happens. You have in. You know, you had the. During 2020, you had the Seattle police pulled completely out, and he had a nation of chads show up, up. You know, it's like, no, that they're there to protect the community. The mayor should not be telling that police chief to pull. The police chief should be doing their damn job protecting the community.

And then, you know, just the infrastructure and all that stuff. And. Yeah, it's. I mean, I got. I got a little Ways to go. But I got two years to prep, and I already. I have, like, eight issues I'm looking into that people complain about, but. So. Well.

I'm sure you're gonna do well. So I'm excited to see how it goes.

You know, people say, well, it should be easy. It's a military town. But, yeah, we have five military bases. But again, it's. The military don't vote. They're. Well, they. They vote, but not for Colorado Springs. They vote for the state they come from. That's the problem. Yeah, it's a military announcement.

Get them to register.

Right. I know when I ran the first time, I think it was about 100 people came up, said, I'm. I'm voting for the first time ever because you're running good. So that felt pretty good.

I'll bet it does. So what's your wife think about you getting into politics?

So she was actually. She was going to run for her seat first.

No kidding.

And she would have won. I mean, she would have smoked them. Anybody that was going to run against her. I mean, she's. She's been involved in the political community across the whole state for about five years now. She. She helps organize, like, churches and stuff to kind of get more involved in politics because they've been too scared. They don't realize the rules and stuff.

But it's a big voting block.

Oh, yeah, it's huge, actually. I'm doing. Well, I'll get in that. But so she's been involved with that, and she got asked to do that, and I was like. I was like, well, cool, because I'm a run for mayor. I'll win mayor. You'll be up there with good powerhouse. But then she's kind of like, yeah, I'd rather just stay home and I'll just help you, because I get. I mean, that. That would cause a little bit of a separation between us, her doing that, me doing this. So she's like. And plus, you know, she. You know, she does a lot. A lot of prayer, praying and stuff. And she's like, it never came to me to actually do it. It was more of my decision. And it's not something that God's leading me to, so I'm stepping back. I'm not going to do it. So now she's just pretty much, like, just gonna help me do it. And she's actually going to business school right now, too, so.

Right on, man.

Yeah, she's a. She's a blessing.

I got a good feeling about this.

Yeah, I think it's going to be strong.

I think you're gonna get it.

Yeah. Now I have a team. I mean, we're getting a solid team. Because it is. It's not just about the one person. The one. To me, the mayor is just a leader. Everybody else does the work. It's just making sure. Like that everybody does what. What the. What are. What the constituents want. Where nowadays it kind of seems like politicians just. They get in there and then just kind of do what they want.

Yeah, sure. So does seem like that, doesn't it, on both sides.

Yep.

Disaster.

Because they want to please everybody. You're not there to please. Please everybody.

Favors.

Yeah. So just get there. Do what needs to be done, what should be done, and what the voters want is what they get.

Yeah. So we'll take. We're wrapping up the interview, but, you know, out there we were talking about your son or your. Your kids. Twins. And just want to see if you have anything you want to say to them.

Never give up. Always push forward. Your life's hard. Sometimes you get knocked down. Just. You always got to get back up.

Well, dude, I wish you the best of luck, man. And I just want to say thank you for coming.

Well, thank you, man. Appreciate it.

It was an honor, truly.