Transcript of Elon's Million Dollar Giveaway, OpenAI and Microsoft Tensions, and Guests Chantal Fernandez and Lauren Sherman

Support for Pivot comes from Better Health. It's Halloween costume crunch time, and people are searching for the scariest, most gruesome mask in town. But for some, Halloween is also a reminder of the mask we wear the rest of the year. If you want to work on getting in touch with a true version of yourself, you might want to try online therapy with Better Health. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient and suited to your schedule. Visit betterhelp. Com/pivot today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P. Com/pivot.

Support for this podcast comes from Stripe. Stripe is a payments and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast track growth, like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription-based charges, invoicing, and all recurring revenue management needs. You can learn how Stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at Stripe. Com. That's Stripe. Com to learn more. Stripe. Make progress.

Support for this show comes from Indeed. If you need to hire, you may need Indeed. Indeed is a matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed. Com/podcast. Just go to indeed. Com/podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed. Com/podcast.

Terms and conditions apply.

Need to hire?

You need Indeed.

I just really... Today is not a day to be late. Oh, you're wearing a Liberty hat. Leave it on. Oh, he's being a lesbian. Okay. Put on your We got to go. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swischer, and it's Coctober. No, Scott, we'll get to that in a second. Welcome.

What? Coctober?

That's- Arnold Palmer. Coctober surprise. Get it?

Oh, yeah. I asked for an Arnold Palmer stiff yesterday at Jack's Life, Frieda, and they didn't get it. They're like, What? What do you mean stiff? It's a joke.

I can't drink that now. It's so sad. We'll get to it. We're going to get to it.

Well, lesbians have always had a thing around.

Exactly. I've always loved an Arnold Palmer. You're a lesbian now.

No, no, no, no, no, WMBA game. Because I know Kara Swisher, this total power lesbian couple, Leanne and Pia, I won't say their last names because for security reasons, I think they're very high profile, but they know who they are. I get to go. This is what it means to be friends with Kara Swisher. My first WMBA game. I go to the last game of the finals on the floor. Spike Lee came by and said hi to all the important people. He totally ignored me. I think your movies are overrated, no offense. But anyways. And then I'm sitting there watching this amazing thing. We have half-time. I go and meet this really interesting woman and her partner. She's an alphabet. She's a VC. By the way, not that I noticed, but both crazy hot. Not that I noticed. Other people, I got those sounds.

We don't mind.

Then, when I was on a plane once, the Dalai Lama was there, and he came up to this woman and child, and he blessed them with the flowing robes and everything. In the middle of the game, Megan Rapino- Yeah, I made her go over. Is like, Waving and high. I said, Leanne, I think Megan Rapino is saying hi. She looked over and she's like, No, she's waving at you. I waved back, and she jumped up and waved. To be waved at a game five of the WNBA by Megan Rapino, that is literally- And suburban. That is literally like being blessed by the llama. I am officially a power lesbian. You are. I am the new fraternity, Joy Bag of Donuts representing the lesbian community. What is up with these gay men in tech who are threatened by us, Cara? I don't know.

What is up? I don't know. But I'm so glad. Megan texted me. She got their late, and I said, Pay attention to Scott. Give him some love, and stuff like that. I was thrilled you were there. I finally, after all your hemming and hawing, you went. I thought you were going to ghost the lesbians, which would have been the end of your life.

No, no, no, no. These were key fucking seats. I'm dumb. I'm not crazy.

Arbury Plaza was there. There were celebrities aplenty. It was like a rocket. Tell us why you now like the NBA, please.

Look, I love the sport. I love watching. The energy, the electricity was just fucking amazing. But the thing that struck me is that I've been thinking a lot about how much young people seem to dislike America. I think it's because our prosperity is not evenly distributed. I do think young people have it more difficult than we had it. But I also think social media and algorithms and bad actors on these platforms are trying to convince them that America is a lot worse than it actually is. Last night was a lesson for me. I just don't think people, especially young people, appreciate how far we've come. I used to go to a lot of... My dad was a salesperson for ITT, OM Scott, so he used to get a lot of tickets to stuff. So I used to go to Rams games. Sporting events when I were a kid were basically corporate VPs. It was all corporate and all wealthy white men. That's it. Those were the only people Sporting Coups. When James Harris became the first Black quarterback who played for the Rams, why was he the first Black quarterback? Because the assumption was in all sports that Black people did not have leadership skills and couldn't be in the brainy position.

And of course, now every amazing quarterback or near every amazing quarterback is non-white. At that game last night, it was people... I thought it was going to be this big lesbian fest. No, it wasn't. There was a healthy gay contention there, but there were straight people there. There were people of all races. I don't want to say all income backgrounds, but even on the dance floor, it wasn't a bunch of ridiculously hot white women with huge eyelashes. They had something called the Senior Liberty, and it was a dance troupe- Yeah, they were fun. Of 60 to 85-year-olds. I mean, that shit is wonderful.

Yeah, it was wonderful. It's got a great energy.

So that stadium, that stadium is not only America, but I just don't think young people realize how far we've come.

I know. It was fun. It's actually fun. Did you go to the special area of eating?

Oh, all that. And they have a little candy room and everything. I was like, It's ridiculous. She's having Mike's Candy in my pants and my Charleston Chew, which is always a...

I am so thrilled you did that. I really am. I feel like- I had a great time. Your friends are lovely. Thank you. Your new name is Barbara as a lesbian, okay?

Barbara? Babs? Just call me Babs. Babs.

That's your new name as a lesbian.

Papa, can you hear me? Yeah. Anyway. With all the plastic surgery I've got lined up, I tell them. I went in, my doctor gives me buttocks. He says, All right, what do you want to look like? I'm like, I want to look like Barbara Streisand in the first Yentel.

Okay. I don't know what to say. All right, we've got to think of more lesbian things for you to do, but I am thrilled you did that. I'm glad you liked it. Did you see the owner?

Oh, yeah. She was there. Si.

What's her name? Cy, Claire Si. Yeah, she's terrific.

She gave a speech at the end. But yeah, I'm now clearly the representative for the entire lesbian community.

I think I've- My work is done.

I'm at the top of the heap here.

You are. Anyway, we've got A lot to get. I'm thrilled. We got a lot to get to today, including increasing tensions between OpenAI and Microsoft and Elon Musk's Million Dollar Giveaway, which is raising legal questions, a lot of them. Plus, our friends of Pivot are Shantal Fernandez from The Cut and Lauren Sherman from Puck. They've written a new which is pretty interesting, Selling Sexy Victoria's Secret and the Unraveling of an American Icon. They just had a new Victoria's Secret show, but the previous owners were all wrapped up Epstein and all kinds of nonsense. It's a really interesting business story of everything.

Oh, wait, you had a big moment.

I did. I was on one of my favorite people, Desi Lydic, who's not a lesbian, but we all wish you were, on The Daily Show. Let's listen to a clip. I think most startups would probably say that they get into it because they want to change the world. They want to make this a better place. They want to help society.

But these companies, Metta, Google, Amazon, do you think that there's some disillusionment that what they think that they're doing is beneficial?

Oh, I never thought they thought that. I just think they just said that along with the fact they wear hoodies, but they'd be cashmere hoodies, so they cost 6.00. Anyway, it was fun. She was great. That's a great show, I have to say. They do a great job. Louis came with me, Ivy, his girlfriend, Amanda that came up.

We had such a ball. The thing that I noticed about that show, in addition to John Story and the producers have done an amazing job just fostering and maturing all these amazing young comedians, is the biggest contrast I noticed, because I know you know this, I've also been on, but the audience. The audience is young, cool people. Quite frankly, when I've gone to other big shows, it's like they empty out the seniors home because they don't have a lot to do. This was people with a lot, young people, funny. The thing they do after is really cool. Yeah, they ask questions. It's a cool scene. It's how I imagine the crowd at SNL would be.

Yeah, great snacks, too. Fantastic snacks. Louis took them all.

She's a star, too. She's really impressive.

She wore glasses for me. She's just a lovely person and so funny. I think she's one of the... So many. Roni Chang is good. They're all good. Jordan Klipper and the other guy.

Yeah, they're fantastic. All of them are really good.

Handsome guy. I love him.

The Handsome guy. Yeah, the big Handsome guy.

He's very funny. Anyway, speaking of Handsome Guys, Disney will name a new chief executive to replace Bob Iger in 2026, Handsome Bob. Four division leaders at Disney are hoping to grab Iger's spot. I think it's Dana Walden, Disney's top television executive. She's also a very close friend of to Kamala Harris's, Josh Demarro, who runs the theme parks and video games. Alan Bergman, who is Disney's movie chief. I met him back in the AOL days. And Jimmy Pitaro, who I also know from Yahoo, who runs ESPN. The announcement came along with a board shakeup. James P. Gorman, the veteran Wall Street banger who joined Disney this year, will become chairman. He's an Iger affiliate, I would say. Any idea who's going to be the next Bob Iger?

The answer to this, I don't know, but this was overdue. I think it was a mistake for Bob to go back. I think a lot of these companies that have had real trouble in the markets, I think churn is a good thing. As much as I really like Bob Iger and think he's a great executive, I think we need to clear out this generation and bring in a new generation of people who grew up with different mediums, understand the technologies. I don't know amongst these four. I don't know any of them. If you were to pick someone- I know Jimmy.

Jimmy's got digital experience, that's for sure.

Right. I can't imagine the person, but quite frankly, I can't... I mean, here's the bottom line, is that it's so much about luck, like which division you're on, and hopefully your division is growing. Espn right now is a problem. It's a bug, not a feature. If he can turn it around, that's great. But the theme parks and video games, just from a sector standpoint, that guy is going to have an easier time looking good at the right moment than the person who's running ESPN. Yeah.

What about an outside person? Name an outside person who you'd like to see it, run it.

God, that's really interesting.

Besides you and I, which would be fantastic.

I don't know. I think the most talented guy on the sidelines right now is Jeff Sucker.

Yeah.

But I don't know. I don't have a vision for somebody would come in. Do you have any ideas?

No, I don't, actually, which is where we are, right? Yeah. Who is like a... Remember years ago, Sheryl Sandberg was bandied about for that job. It's got to be someone who can deal with talent and also Wall Street. It's a really tough job.

I know who they'd like to get, but they can't get them. What?

Who?

Ted Surround us.

Oh, yeah, you're right.

You realize Ted- Yeah, we're going to talk about them in a second. Worked in a video store for a year. The guy just has a great gut for content. He's a brilliant businessman. He's humble. He's amazing with talent. He obviously understands the new age. Now, a lot of talent would say that he singlehandedly is starking the margin from talent and absorbing it up until to Netflix. But he's a brilliant businessman. I don't know if you know this, but I bought Netflix at 10 bucks a share. That's the good news. I sold at eight, and it's now at 7:00. I literally want to find a time machine so I can go back and kill me and then kill myself. That's true. That would be my golf stream right now. Okay. All right.

I'm not bitter, Ted. I have a name, Donna Langley at Universal. I think she's decided over a lot of really big successes. Elegant, beautiful person, very sharp. Everybody likes her, doing really well there. She's someone that's really, I think, is just well-liked and sharp as a frigging tack. I would I'll put her in the list. Anyway, it'll probably be someone internally. I'm guessing either Josh or Dana Walden. One of those two.

I don't know.

She's been around. She's at Fox. You remember? She's been around the block. Probably her. If Harris wins, she gets a big up, I think. I suspect she gets a big up. They are very actual good friends. But speaking of Ted Sarandos, Netflix shares are up 7% after reporting Q3 earnings. The streamer beat expectations on earnings for share and revenue and saw a 35% quarter-over-a-quarter jump for its ad-supported membership tier. Ad tier accounted for over 50% of signups. That's crazy. They've made it work. The company said it expects Q4 revenue to rise 14% to 10.3 billion and expects a 12% growth revenue in 2025. I mean, they've also got hit shows all over the place. Nobody wants this. This little rom-com is doing really well, all kinds of shows. I think Apple is keeping up with a couple of their and some others. There's good shows all over the streaming environment right now. This is now a good strategy. Netflix is one step ahead of them at all times in everything.

They're running away with it, or past since, they ran away from it. They keep running. There's a couple of things that struck me about Netflix. The first is, for the first time in their history over the last two years, they haven't increased their content budget, which is them saying, We want and don't need to, because They have the money. They have the cheap capital with their stock price. But they've, because of the writer's strike, transferring power to people who already had a large content bank. In the reality, none of us were thinking, I'm going to unsubscribe from Netflix because my content bank, it's shrunk from 24 months of shit I need to get to to 22 months. Their stock went just apeshit while everyone else went down. But also for the first time, more than half their content now is being produced outside of the US. And while Los Angeles will never be Detroit because it has In-N-Out burger- Los Angeles production is way down.

But go ahead.

The spending on content is actually up 2% this year, so it's basically flat, but it's moving from LA to Albuquerque to Dublin, Ireland, to Madrid, to South Korea. So basically, Netflix is globalizing the production of the supply chain of the content industry, and it's taking a real toll on the existing creative community. And then you add in the fact that Netflix Netflix is only the second largest streamer. They think they're the largest. They're not. Youtube is the largest streamer. And then you pull up additional 10 or 15 billion a year in oxygen out from the incremental growth from YouTube and TikTok. And this industry is being reshaped around Netflix, YouTube, and TikTok. That's true. The existing players are just getting killed.

They're just floundering. They have some good shows. There are good shows, but they've got right now, Nobody Wants Us, which is the zeitgeist show right now, which about a hot rabbi, essentially. This monster is a Lail and Eric Menendos story. They might get out of jail with the attention this has brought them. Obviously, there are old things like Love is Blind. They got Stranger Things, et cetera. I think what's really interesting. They just like one after the next after the next. Some of them are just okay, but you see big celebrities like Holly Berry. All these big names are in there, in all the streamers, which is interesting. But then they have things like you and Yellow Jackets and the Lincoln Lawyer, these shows, and the Diplomat. They're bringing that back from us.

I don't know if you heard, but there is an original scripted drama about big tech that literally had every streamer bidding on it, and they chose to go with Netflix. I think that says something.

You did. I'm excited to see how that- You did. I think you picked exactly the right place. I think you're going to hit it.

That was a tough one. I absolutely love HBO. That was a tough one.

I know, but I think it's right in this ad-supported thing.

By the way, I had absolutely no influence over who we went with.

I know, but I think it's good.

I'm just the tech guy they like it.

I'm going to interview you when it premieres at the Paris Theater, which Netflix owns. They just...

That's where I interview Bill Gates. Can we do it at the Cannes Film Festival? I want to go with- No, we're going to do the Paris Theater. Juliet Benoche.

Benoche? Benoche?

Or Julia Ormand. I see myself with either of those people because- No, they don't see themselves with you. Rosamund Pike intimidates me. She's too crazy hot.

Yeah, she's going to ignore you completely.

I need to go with an '80s sex.

Oh, hello. She'll go like that. Oh, hello. I love her in all the Bond movies and stuff. Okay, let's get to our first It's a big story. Sam Altman once called OpenAI's relationship with Microsoft the best romance in tech, but that love is starting to fade, according to a report in the New York Times, which some of Microsoft are pushing back on to me recently. I got a lot of text. Financial pressure on OpenAI and concerns about disability have contributed to a tension between the good companies. It's super expensive. Openai employees have also complained that Microsoft is not providing enough compute power. That's going to be a normal complaint. Some of the attention is also tied to Microsoft hedging its AI bets and spending $650 million to hire Mustafa Solomon and most of the employees from inflection. Sam Altman and several OpenAI executives are supposedly not happy about that move. When I interviewed Mustafa earlier this month, I asked him about the team's relationship with OpenAI. Let's listen to that exchange. What is the relationship between them? Are you competitors? How does it- No, we're siblings. Sometimes siblings squabble. Siblings are competitive. Sometimes they squabble, but largely we're on the same team.

And that's amazing for us.

We collaborate closely with them on everything from the research side to core infrastructure and so on.

Obviously, we build competing products, and I think that's healthy and a natural part of things.

And so it's a good relationship. Do you buy that? And what do you think about this situation? Are these companies stuck with each other? Or could they actually go their separate ways?

No, they're too inextricably linked. The agreement is that I think up until 100 billion, Microsoft gets 49 or 51% of the profits. They're like Simey's twins, but that doesn't mean they don't like each other. And at some point, someone takes out a steak knife and threatens to cut the corpus in half. They're so pissed off at the other. The issue I find with stuff like this, and it's, in my opinion, the most challenging thing in business is compensation. Imagine you're this brilliant young systems engineer or AI developer at Microsoft, and there's three of you on your team, or five of you, or 20 of you, and you're working with the team at OpenAI, and you collaborate in integration. The folks at OpenAI who've been there three years, say you've both been there at your respective firms three years, they're doing the same thing, they're working together, similar skillset. The folks at OpenAI, their options are worth $40 million. And the folks of Microsoft, their options are worth $400,000. It reminds me of Bain Consulting Firm started a division called Bain Capital. They lifted in And they lifted, and Mitt Romney, I think, was the founder.

They lifted a few of the best and brightest consultants out. And all of a sudden, hey, remember Lisa? He used to sit next to us and try and tell Mars if they should go into Thailand or to tell the Libyan government how to improve their image, even though they're murderous. Lisa is now at BAN Capital, and I heard she got $4 million off her latest deal, and we're making $400,000. So I always go to the money. I would bet the friction here is different levels of compensation between people working together. I would imagine that causes a lot of dissent within Microsoft.

Yeah, that's a really smart point. Well, there's also questions about Microsoft's equity stake and governance rights when OpenAI becomes a for-profit company. Both Microsoft and OpenAI have hired investment banks to advise them on this process, so that's also going to be another issue.

But you can imagine Microsoft, we're a $3 trillion company, you're $150 billion company, and we've got this brilliant young man. It would be impossible for Sam Altman not to have a little bit of a God complex right now and think, My dick is 11 inches, even if it's not. Microsoft is used to a command-I've never seen it. Go ahead. Microsoft is used to a command and control structure. As far as Microsoft is concerned, it's like, We're on top, bitches. We invest a lot of money. We've been very supportive here. And so they probably think, Okay, we just need to diversify a little bit away from a company we can't totally control. And then open OpenAI says, Wait, you're diversifying, but you want us to coordinate, not compete. I imagine there's tension and flare-ups and border skirmishes everywhere here.

And of course, do we get enough resources? Are we getting enough resources? Anyway, it's a difficult thing. Meanwhile, former OpenAI CTO, Miriam Maradi is reportedly raising funds from VCs for a new AI startup. Of course she is, and as did the previous people who left, like Ilyas Satzkiever. Perplexity is also now in funding talks, looking to double its valuation to more than eight billion. Competitive threats. It seems like everyone who worked for OpenAI is starting their own company, the safety company, even though they're raising an enormous amount of money. Dow Jones and The York Post, by the way, filed a lawsuit against perplexity for copyright infundments. That's the company that a lot of people are targeting. This is just going to happen. This funding is going to continue, correct?

I mean, the bottom line is once you have a 100X return like this and the future looks bigger and brighter, and it's one step away from the best-performing stock in history, NVIDIA, Everyone's looking for places to put money in AI, and why not go with the guys who aren't at 150, they're at 40? I personally think that if we're talking about the LLMs, I think that OpenAI is basically running away with it.

The Netflix. The Netflix of the sector.

That's right. And Netflix was the Amazon of media, and OpenAI is going to raise a ton of money, pull away from it. I think Anthropic and Claude with their relationship with Amazon will be the lift to OpenAI as Uber, maybe a little stronger the Pepsi to their Coke. Perplexity has a really nice brand positioning. It's seen as AI Search, which is brilliant brand positioning. I think the rest of these folks, especially at the money they're raising at, my advice to any of these companies raising would be to slow your roll around valuation because this is the hard part. When I was raising money for Red Envelop, I knew the froth was incredible, and I went out and I raised money at a valuation of 120 million. The problem was within about a year, post 2000, it was worth 40 to 60. It just creates all sorts of dysfunction at the board level.

Yeah, and also with employees who are all like, I'm rich.

I'm not. Then you have some people in the boardroom who are, I'm on a board right now. And the way their view of the CEO is entirely based on when they invested. The people who invested recently are like, What the fuck is going on here? We don't have any affinity for this guy's idiot fucking decisions. And the early investors are like, Oh, cut her some slack. I'm like, Well, that's because you're up 10X on your investment. I get why you are very forgiving. But the folks who invested last year are probably down 30%. Anyways, it's mismatched durations.

Smart advice. They won't take it.

They will grab as much as they do. Well, they have... I mean, this is a tough one because they have a responsibility to protect, serve existing shareholders and not take the dilution. But if I look at that graph that shows The cycle time to mass adoption. Tv took 10 or 20 years, then the facts took five years, then Instagram took three years. The cycle time to mass adoption of a 10X product is getting shorter and shorter. Unfortunately, that also means the time to monopoly or duopoly. I think the duopoly is already formed here. I think it's open vidia.

The Netflix app. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I think they're going to raise money, and they're not going to listen to a very good piece of advice you just gave, actually. Also, for the latest episode of On with Kara Swisher, I interviewed Robert Downey Jr. He's starring in the Broadway play McNeill, which gets into some ethics and morality issues around AI. I asked about the implications for Hollywood, who is doing some lawsuits, some deals, et cetera. Let's listen. Robert, these images are deep fakes of you and others. They use Générvée to create these digital replicas. Tony Stark died in the Avengers Endgame. They could resurrect him without you existing now, given how much body you have. Do you have a writer to protect your likeness, something you want in your contracts going forward?

I'm not worried about them hijacking my character's soul because there's three or four guys and gals who make all the decisions there anyway, and they would never do that to me with or without me.

But future executives certainly will.

Well, you're right. I would like to here state that I intend to sue all future executives just on spec.

You'll be dead, I know, but my law firm will still be very active. It was an interesting discussion. He's a very sharp cookie. This is a really interesting show. But it is interesting because he has an enormous body of work.

One of the great actors of our time.

Really? He won the Oscar. For Chaplin, right? No, he won it for Oppenheimer. But it was interesting because he really does think about these things. But it'll be interesting to see what happens to actors like him going forward because He's coming back, by the way, as Dr. Doum. He's becoming a villain, which is interesting because we touched really briefly on Elon, and he was like, Yeah, that guy. Not me. He's not playing me because Elon thinks he's Tony Stark, and Tony Stark does not think he is Elon in many ways. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Donald Trump's closing arguments take a vulgar, that's the word they're using, vulgar turn. It's a penis joke, Scott, and you're the expert, so we'll talk about it, and we'll speak with friends of Pivot, Shontal Fernandez and Lauren Sherman, about the rise and fall of Victoria's Secret, a really fascinating business story.

Support for Pivot comes from Mint Mobile. When you discover something amazing, it's tempting to share with everyone you see, your friends, your family, maybe even mumbling it to your dentist in the middle of a cleaning. Well, Mint Mobile's latest deal is like that because when you're paying just $15 a month when you purchase a three-month plan, that's a deal worth sharing. All MinMobil plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even keep your phone, your contacts, and your number. It doesn't get much easier than that. To get this new customer offer and your new three-month premium wireless plan for just $15 a month, you can go to mintmobil. Com/pivot. That's mintmobil. Com/pivot. You can cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobil. Com/pivot. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan, additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See mint mobile for details. Support for Pivot comes from Vanta. If you're starting a new security program at your company and you want it to stick, you need a couple of things to go right.

Obviously, you'll need to rely on top-notch security practices. That's a given. But you'll also need to establish a foundation of trust if you want to succeed. Vanta is here to help. Vanta automates compliance for SOC 2 ISO 27001, and more, saving you time and money while helping you build customer trust. Plus, you can streamline security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture with a customer-facing trust center, all powered by Vanta AI. Over 8,000 global companies, including Atlassian Flow Health and Cora, use Vanta to manage risk and proof security in real-time. Get a $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta. Com/pivot. That's vanta. Com/pivot. Pivot for $1,000 off. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting, crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists, and they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion.

It's mind-blowing to see the infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, I think, good this, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim. We have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk, and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox. Com/zel. When using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust.

Scott, we're back with two weeks going to election day. The presidential candidates are making their closing arguments in very different ways. Vice President Kamala Harris focused on abortion rights at a rally in Atlanta over the weekend and visited Black churches in a push for early voting. Former President Donald Trump had a stage-managed photo op at a McDonald's serving for eyes to supporters in a closed place. That was after a rally where he shared a story about golfer Arnold Palmer's penis. By the way, his daughter today said Arnold Palmer did not like Donald Trump and thought that was grotesque. You're the expert on penis jokes, so why don't you What did you think of this penis joke he made?

I don't know. Look, it represents... All right. The person who wants to be Commander-in-Chief and represent us to allies and enemies and to parliments around the world, you got to put on a tie. That is, you're going to church, you got to put on a tie. You're going to a funeral, you got to put on a tie. You want to be President of the United States, you just secure that shit. You acquit yourself and you compose yourself with a certain level of decorum, you are the ultimate statesman. Full stop. That, at a minimum, it says it just reflects poorly on this person's qualifications to command that role. Two, and I don't like to say this, but I think it's true. I think that is a big part of his appeal, because I think for the last 30 or 40 years, politicians stood in front of people and told them whatever they thought they wanted to hear and use PG 13 or G-rated analogies and language. People just felt like, I'm just sick of being lied to.

Yeah, but do they want a penis joke like this?

Yeah, but I think it's part of his appeal, carer, because he's raw. I hate to use this word. He is authentically a crude and coarse person, and there's a certain level of that outrageousness that I think appeals to his base.

I don't. I think he seems cognitively disabled. I think this is lack of inhibition I don't think this was planned. I have heard from people who spend time with him. He is dirty in person, right? Like, privately, he tells dirty jokes and stuff. I think he's lost his fucking mind. I think he's cognitively disabled, and he doesn't have control. It's not just doing it on Arnold Palmer's penis, which is gross, I think. I think a lot of independents don't like it much, didn't like that one. There's one thing to be funny, the other thing that it's just weird and creepy, I think. I'm not so sure it is appealing, this new one.

But here's the problem. The strategy works, Cara, because we're talking about this, which people don't really care about. Instead of saying, Okay, if he implements tariffs and cuts down on immigration, it's going to be wildly inflationary. He'd rather, Hey, look over here, my outrageous behavior. The people who don't like them will be indignant about it. The people who do like them don't care. Instead of having a thoughtful conversation around policies, that would be massive inflationary for America. So quite frankly, he wins on this stuff.

Yeah, it's true. He's willing to go low. When they go low, I go lower or very low or subterráne. There's such a contrast in these two candidates. I mean, Jim Gaffigan at one of those dinners was like, If you don't understand the contrast, I don't know what's wrong with you. There's a lot of surrogates out there. Michelle and Barack Obama are both hitting the campaign trail with Harris this week. Liz Cheney is campaigning with the vice President, and Elon Elon Musk is doing town halls in Pennsylvania, engaging in some potentially illegal practices. You've talked about the importance of surrogates. Trump also indicated that Nikki Haley might be joining him on the campaign trail. We'll see. Do you think they're effective at this point in the game?

Well, first off, actors traditionally have shown they always lean democratic, whether it's Warren Beathe and McGovern. Actors always seem to... And there isn't a lot of evidence that that helps. I do think it's really powerful to have the Obamas out there. I think Secretary Buttish, Governor Shapiro, Governor Whitmer. I think these are powerful, articulate surrogates. And if you look at the team, it's Kelli Ann Conway and Ted Nugent on the Trump side.

And Elon.

Yeah, and Elon. Just going to Elon for a second. The same issue is there. I saw everyone with their hair on fire, citing election law saying- Just so people don't know, let me fill them in.

Elon is randomly awarding a million dollar daily prize to registered swing voters who sign his Pax petition, supporting the first and second amendments. Federal law says it's a crime to pay people with the intention of inducing or rewarding to cast a voter get registered. But election law experts are split over whether his actions cross the line. Let me just play this. Speaking of Shapiro, Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro was asked about the legality of the giveaway by Kristen Welker on Meet the Press. Let's listen.

When you start flowing this money into politics, I think it raises serious questions that folks may want to take a look at.

So you think it might not be legal, yes or no?

I think it's something that law enforcement could take a look at. I'm not the attorney general anymore at Pennsylvania.

I'm the governor, but it does raise some serious questions.

See, I think this is just risk assessment by Elon. Now, they're not going to come after him. And if Trump wins, it won't matter. His allies argue because he's not directly paying for registration, but for a petition signature, it's not illegal. It's very typical of him. This is a very typical risk he would take easily, including attacking Dominion systems, I think is probably not a great risk to necessarily take. But go ahead, finish what you're saying about him.

It all comes down to incentives and the algebra of deterrence. The whole point of our criminal justice system is that criminals do the math, or when you're about to commit a crime, you do a math, and it's the following. The likelihood I'm caught times the potential penalty has to be greater than the potential upside. One of the biggest problem that ails our society is in certain key sectors and components of our economic system, the algebra of deterrence is all fucked up. I'll give you a couple of very three stark examples. If I'm meta, and I know I sit on top of research that is showing that there is a direct correlation between usage of my platform and teen depression and self-cutting, and I continue to engage in this, or I violate my consent decree, and I knowingly violate my consent decree, I know that the likelihood I get caught, that the lay and the size of the fine are vastly smaller than the upside of continuing to break the law. In taxation, all really wealthy people have an incentive to be so fucking aggressive with their taxes because their taxes are so complicated and the IRS has been, till Biden, so underfunded that the likelihood you'll get caught and the penalty are vastly overwhelmed by the amount of money you're going to save.

Whether they can come get you and whether they- Yeah, by being incredibly aggressive on your taxes.

And now let's go to Musk. Who gives a shit if it's illegal? They're not going to put him in jail. They're not going to say to Trump, all of our election laws are the following: lie, cheat, break the law, get an office, and then it'll be embarrassing, and the election commission will fine you, and they'll shame your election, your campaign manager, and you're still the fucking senator. So the incentives, until they say, until there's some real risk that they can shut down, for example, all your media spending, if they say, Okay, if this guy engages in this, he could go to jail or the campaign has to stop all media spending. You could get an injunction if it's really blatant. What incentive is there for us not to do this?

Yeah, I agree. I think everyone's like, Can you believe it? I was been asked to be on to. I was like, He doesn't care. He's not going to pay. If Trump wins, he's scot-free. This is a scot-free risk that he takes. If he loses, she's going to have a hard time going after him, and she probably won't. I think our laws, especially electionals, do not anticipate Shameless fucks. They just don't. This is Trump, and this is, as you're saying, with the penis joke. I think a A lot of women, yuck, you. I agree with you paying attention to him, but I think it brings to question whether he's cognitive, say, and that's a negative. That is showing up on poll after poll after poll. Is he Biden, too? Dirty Biden, essentially. Those numbers are showing some real resonance. We were showing off some stats about that. Is he too old? Then therefore, you're voting for JD Vance, who is paid for by Peter Thiel and Elon Musk, essentially. I do think it's a risk for Musk to take, and he will take it because it will be advantaged. If she wins, I think the risk will be problematic for him, but not fatal for him.

He'll just behave. Although saying she hates Christians and stuff like that shows that he's also mentally has some mental problems. I think the real quiet winner in this is Peter Thiel, and I think he will take down all of them because he quietly He's very sharp. He sits behind the scenes. He and Elon did not get along before this, by the way, at all, in a way that was significant. I suspect if Trump wins, there's going to be one ugly fight going on among those people.

There's about a one in three chance if Donald Trump is reelected, that he dies in office just based on his age and his body mass index. That means there's a guy who was a mediocre entrepreneur, VC at best, served four years in the Marines, which he should be honored for, got elected to Senate, what, two years ago? And this guy is bought and paid for by Peter Thiel. It's not his service in the Marines. He's a smart guy. It's not his book. It's not any of that. There's two reasons that Senator Rants could be a heartbeat from presidency, and basically the President. There's two reasons. The first is Peter, the second is Thiel.

That's the one I'm watching. I think Elon's in more trouble in a Trump presidency than Kamala Harris. I think he's got democratic issues of investigation and regulatory. There is going to be an ugly fight at the top there if Trump wins. I wouldn't want to be Trump. I think he's among some very difficult characters.

I didn't see that. That's interesting. I didn't see that because the way I see it, and again, it just always, in my opinion, They're not going to get along. I'd love to write a book called Incentives. I just don't people connect the dots. But here are the incentives, and this is what's so dangerous about not immediately having a gab reflex around a move to autocracy. There's greater incentive to support Trump than Harris. If you're famous or you're... Because here's the thing, if you're Elon Musk and you support Trump very, very visibly and Harris is elected, they're not going to punish your company. They're not going to put you in jail. They believe in rule of law. Yeah, that's right. Donald Trump is saying, If I'm elected, I'm going to prosecute Google to the full extent, or Jews, it's your fault if I don't get elected. So all of the incentives are, Okay, if I root for this If I were this clown and he doesn't win, I'm okay because the people the other side, believes in rule of law. They're not going to go after personal prosecution. But the autocrat might come after me.

I think. That is what's exactly going to happen.

Say more. What do you mean, Karen?

I think Elon's in more trouble in a Trump presidency. I think he doesn't... He's the one who's... He's got, obviously, some cognitive issues. He's really lost his mind in many ways, allegedly. I think Teel is pulling all the strings here. Peter Teel is quiet and deadly. Elon Musk is loud, and he just reminds me of some of these oligarchs that ended up not living.

But the whole point of a democracy The whole point of having different branches of governments and members of Congress and three branches and a military, a Secretary of Defense that comes from a civilian background, not a military, all of these things are meant to put in place checks and balances. We're about to For the first time, I think maybe there's someone else, where essentially you have one man, Peter Thiel, who could literally control the president. There is no something Peter Thiel will never hear from a vice president or potentially a president, Vance, something he will never hear is no. That's right.

Ever. He's the one I'm watching. I'm not watching E. E. It's just a ridiculous circus of a person, and I think it'll end badly for him. But Peter Thiel is the one I'm looking at. Anyway, we'll see. Let's bring in our friends a pivot. Shontel Fernandez is a fashion features writer at The Cut, and Lauren Sherman is Puck's fashion correspondent. Together, they've written a new book, Selling Sexy, Victoria's Secret, and the Unraveling of an American Icon. Welcome, both of you. Hi. Thank you for having us.

Thanks for having us.

The New York Times review puts it, This book is about bras in the same way that Citizen Kane is a movie about a sled, which is to say not at all. Talk about this because this is a business story. For people who don't know, Victoria's Secret just started their fashion shows again after a very controversial... Some of the executives, one particular, the head of marketing, feels like a sexual us or of the old school. But talk a little bit about what the story you wanted to tell. Why don't we start, Shantel?

Yeah, Victoria's Secret has been so connected to the zeitgeist for decades, and we really saw it as a window into the American consumer psyche. It's a brand that so many women have had a hate-love relationship with, but it was so dominant, really didn't have any meaningful competitors at its peak. We really wanted to explore how that happened. How did such a tiny boutique come to dominate a really utilitarian category and turn it into a fashion category. It was also a way to talk about the rise of specialty retail, which Les Wexner, who acquired Victoria's Secret from its original founders and scaled it so impressively. He didn't invent specialty retailing, but he perfected that model. Through telling the story of specialty retail, it's a way to talk about the way that American fashion has evolved since the 1950s in all of these really fascinating ways. Lauren and I wanted to write this book because the Victoria's Secret downfall was really a marketing angle in the media that the angels were out of touch. But we felt there was a business story there that hadn't been told that really also led to the challenges that that brand had.

Lauren, Wexner is a really unusual character, I think. He obviously shaped Victoria's Secret and brought it to... Like very similar to what happened at Starbucks. There was an original Starbucks, and then Howard Schultz made it into Starbucks, essentially. His maxim for the business was, We sell hope, not help. He also was close with Jeffrey Epstein, who reportedly used his ties to him to lure young women. Talk a little bit about him, Lauren.

So he was proto fast fashion. He changed the way we all shop. I think everything Chantal said, American culture is consumer culture. He was hugely important in the making of the American Mall as a part of society. He very, Very early, his parents were in the trade like many Jewish immigrants. He very early saw what his parents were doing. They owned a small store and realized, Oh, the price value equation of the clothes they're selling isn't right. I could be making things cheaper without brand names, and people would buy them because they would feel like they were a better value. So it was all about value, value, value. Pre-wexner owning Victoria's Secret, it was more like a Barney's. There was sets. This is like late '70s, and you could buy a bra and underwear set that was $2,000 there. When he bought it, all the old executives, the first thing they talked about was the $20 red Teddy that he brought to market. And he took the style that the Raymans the original founders created and scaled it and made it cheaper and faster. He's a very interesting character, his personal life, too, and the relationship he had with Epstein and how much control he gave Epstein over his life.

He gave him power of attorney a couple of years after they had met. This is a guy who was very closed off and had really only worked with people he knew since high school. A lot of his first business partners were people he grew up with. It was a very strange relationship that we get into. It's their relationship, and the rise and fall of Epstein mirrors the rise and fall of Victoria's Secret.

Why? Why with Epstein?

I think you could get psychology 101 here. Wexner is a very shy, closed-off person who did not feel comfortable in New York City. In the '80s. There's a big New York magazine profile from, I think '85, where Wexner is on the scene in the city. And Epstein, as everyone knows, he was charismatic. He had a lot of connections really powerful people trusted him. I think Epstein was a buffer to all these things that made Wexner really uncomfortable, and he felt protected by him. He also, as Epstein came in, Wexner's mother, who had been a very controlling figure in his life, Bella, had worked at the company essentially since it started. She receded to the background. Epstein took her role on a board of a charity that they worked on. There were all these things where Epstein's presence allowed him to get rid of... There was this guy, Bob Mourosky, who had worked with him since the beginning. They fired him. It allowed him to be... He was like a henchmen type thing.

It's nice to meet you both. My sense is the Epstein scandal makes for interesting media and articles, but it had almost nothing to do with this downfall. I just don't buy it. I think this is a story of merchandising that missed the mark. There's been a ton of scandal. The founder of Abercrombie & Fitch did not drape himself in glory, and they've had an unbelievable renaissance. When I think of Les, I think he got something very right and very wrong. He actually was known as Specialy Retail. He was the guy that first brought data, like hard data science to Specialy Retail. At least that's how I remember him. But the whole angels, this unattainable esthetic, the merchandise, it just... Like most Specialy retail, isn't this just a story of, quite frankly, and it's not sexy, but they just got the product wrong for a really long time.

Yeah, I think by the time the conversation turned against the angels and it was seen as culturally out of step, they already had a lot of merchandising problems. The way the business was structured between e-commerce and stores was completely separate. They had invested in e-commerce. There was the rise of the bralette, that underwire molded cup bra that was their bread and butter, their highest margin. Half leisure. Yeah. If they're The fact of where it had been stronger when all of this happened, they probably wouldn't be in the position they are now.

We really pinpoint it to their miss on the bralette. That's foreshadowing when the bralette became really popular in culture about 10, 11 years ago. There were a lot of executives internally who were pushing it, and Wexner, in particular, was like, No, again, we sell hope, not help. Our vision of sexy is an underwire bra. Also, underwire bras are more expensive. They have higher margins, they're harder to make. So we see that as the turning point. That active wear stuff for sure, too, and we cover that in the book. But I really see that they really missed the mark on the bralette, and that meant they missed the mark on everything that was happening in culture and marketing.

Which happens to many retailers, right? It happens to many. I mean, if you don't get culottes versus pedal pushers, you're fucked. I remember several stores here in the Washington area. I covered retail for seven years, and they missed one thing, especially if they were on trend. But you read about the company ended up falling out digitally because they were ahead. They had an early website, live streaming these shows. They took advantage of Facebook and Instagram. What happened from your perspective?

I think Wexner underestimated the power of commerce, and especially in the 2010s, when there were all these direct-to-consumer startups coming into the space and the technology was really evolving, there wasn't that investment at the company. It was a great interview that he around that time saying that smartphones would be a fad and that people would want to shop in person. He saw, especially the bra, as something that women were going to want to shop in person for, and felt he was an outlier like the Apple Store, Sephora, that would always draw higher than average traffic in the mall. And while there is some truth to that in terms of women wanting to try on bras, the convenience of e-commerce, obviously, we all know, was something that they needed to invest in, and they really just weren't until really like 2019 mean, which is crazy.

You guys cover retail. I'm curious if you agree with this, but the turnaround that I think doesn't get the attention it receives is Abercrombie & Fitch. When I say we, I was on the board of Urban Outfitters. We could have bought Abercrombie & Fitch for 2-500 million just five years ago. Now, it's got a market cap of 8 billion. Do you think there's any opportunity or likelihood? Victoria's Secret has to have huge awareness. Obviously, very strong distribution, or I would imagine a ton of leases, some of which are still pretty good. Do you think that there's any possibility of an Abercrombie-like turnaround for the firm?

Well, Chantal actually did a great profile for New York magazine on the business and what they've done with it. It's a very different business, as you know, bras and fashion. And Victoria's Secret is going to incorporate more clothing into the business again. But it's not a seasonal of a business. It's more about replenishment. It's much smaller. Well, Abercrombie is much smaller than Victoria's Secret. So they're very, very different businesses. And the distribution that Victoria's Secret has means that it is still giant. It's still a $6 billion a year. Now, that's the product they're shipping. The margin on that is terrible, and it's shrinking. The business, I see it probably continuing to shrink, shrink, shrink. It's healthy, probably a $2, $3 billion business. Right now, six billion too much would be more profitable to be smaller. But I think, yes, I think there's definitely an opportunity for it to have a renaissance. And Abercrombie was really smart that they didn't rely on the old imagery. They used the same building blocks, jeans, cute tops, sweaters, but they made it modern, and they divorced it from the Bruce Webber of it all. Victoria's Secret, I don't know if they have the three savvy executives in place at this moment.

They got a new CEO. We'll see what she does. But a lot of that credit has to do with Fran Horowitz and seeing her merchandiser and her marketer and the three of them working together and using the data right. So it's possible.

Right. Victoria's Secret just fashion show, returned after a six-year hiatus in the wake of a Me Too and other controversies. This is supposed to be a reinvention for the brand, and the show got mixed reviews at best. One critic called it a relic of another time. What do you think of what they did there and why? It did feel weird to see it, right? And then the competitors, is it Kim Kardashian, Skims, or some of these fashion companies, Shantel?

Yeah, Skims, Aerie, Rihanna's brand. Those are some of the main competitors beyond the department store brands that don't have much marketing like Wacol or Notori. The fashion show, I think, was interesting. It was an opportunity for them to get a lot of organic media coverage. There was a ton of coverage last week, clips all over social media. I think the lesson from Abercrombie is that there's a lot to be gained in focusing on the product over the fantasy or the marketing, and that seems to not be the priority still of Victoria's Secret, though. With this show, they pushed on the Amazon streaming a lot of it was shoppable in a way that it never was before and was never part of the strategy before. I think it's hard to say. We'll see how the results are, but I don't think it moved the needle culturally positive or negatively for the brand. I'm sure they spent a ton of money on it. They have a new CEO, Hillary Super, who came from Rihanna's brand, who only started about a month ago. Perhaps her priorities will evolve. This show was planned long before she was hired. It's interesting to track.

But yeah, I think there was... One reaction I thought was really interesting is that especially younger people wanted a campier version of the show because that's what they remember from the 2010s. This show was not that campy. It was more sophisticated. They had the former Vogue Paris editor-in-chief styling it Emmanuel Alt. They were going for that fashiony angle, and it doesn't really seem like that's what younger people wanted.

Yeah, it felt very Joan Collins.

I'm just curious, when you look at the world, especially retail, who do you admire the most? Who do you think is just killing it right now?

I really love Skims. I think it's so interesting the way they've taken the Victoria's Secret playbook and twisted it in subtle but profound ways. I think Jens and Emma agreed, who are the couple behind that, are really sharp merchants and understand, again, how to mix that focus on product and marketing. The thing about the Kim Kardashian brand, that's a polarizing family as well. But you hear that word of mouth is saying, Oh, this product is actually good. You never hear that about Victoria's Secret. I think they could engineer that conversation if focused on it, they have a lot of product. But I think Skims has just been... They've been having fun with the Victoria's Secret model and bringing back some of their former angels in a way that a Victoria's Secret, I think, has still been in an apologetic era that they seem to coming out of now with this show, but has been dogging them recently.

I think the question for Skims is whether or not... They only have four or five stores right now. Whether or not they can do... Retail is important, and having a ton of distribution is important. Tori's Secret has 800 stores. That's way too many. But what's a store for? The value of a store is different now. And so can Skims figure out how to make those stores productive? Whether that means people leaving the store and buying stuff online immediately or buying a ton of stuff in store. That's the big question for me on that front. I would say generally in specialty retail, I think most companies have not figured out how to make the stores productive. They need to exist, but what does that mean? There are a lot of big questions from me on that end, and there's no exact compact answer. But the big thing is these stores are a big capital expense. They cost a lot of money. How do you make them worth? They need to exist, but how do you make them worthwhile and not erode margins and all that stuff.

You have Sheen and the others, Uniqlo and stuff like that, or Mooji. They're just fine. Of course, they have big stores in New York, but not everywhere.

Allo, Restoration Hardware, Sephora. There's a bunch of stores that are In the future, how does that look?

Because they open and close very quickly. I don't see Victoria's Secret have any advantage whatsoever when all those are there.

I think shorter leases and more understanding that this is cyclical. Like, Allo right now is on top, but they tried to raise, I forget it, a really crazy valuation last year, and they weren't able to raise the money. So everybody thinks Allo is so great, but they're opening stores like crazy crazy. They have a very interesting business where they have a blanks business that they run under another name that fueled the Allo business. But what's it going to be in two years when people are over that esthetic if they're not able to evolve?

It's a tale as old as time, right? Especially retailer is hot. They raise a ton of capital. They spend like drunken sailors. They over-expand. It's the story of restoration harder. It's the story of all of them.

Which is why Victoria's Secret is so impressive because they survived many of those cycles already before. Why has this cycle been so tricky for them?

I have an idea I want to pitch all three of you around Victoria's Secret, and I want to get your reaction. I saw that fashion show, and they're trying to have it both ways. I think they absolutely got to like, corn it up. I think they should basically have the hottest men and women and do something with OnlyFans and have a show where basically everyone just ridiculously fucking hop people naked everywhere. I think they need to embrace their roots. Your thoughts?

I'm buying underwear from Uniqlo.

I know. I'm the same.

I don't want to fuss. Uniqlo share has just crashed.

I like the idea of them doing something more dramatic, excluding more people. Lean into it. They're trying to be a appeal to everyone, and I think that's tough.

I just don't think a fashion show is the answer. Have you all looked at their marketing on Instagram? It's terrible. That's where they should be putting the money. If they want to use OnlyFans, It sounds like high fashion has embraced OnlyFans in certain cases, and it's worked really well. I think that's a clever idea, but they need to be where the customer is. Right now... The other big thing is product is king at the moment. People actually think they're experts on what product is good and bad, and their product is not great. And so there's no one on TikTok. On TikTok, everybody's like, Abercrombie and jeans fit so well. No one's saying that about a Victoria's Secret bra.

Because what sells it now is comfort, not sex. If they want to be this huge cross-cultural brand, it's about comfort.

Yeah. Sorry.

A hundred % agree. No point. I, personally, think if you took Athleisure or Lululemon and Victoria's Secret, they're inversely correlated. I think women have gone to Athleisure and away from this. I mean, you literally... Lulu Lemon, arguably the best-performing special retailer of the last 15 years, and it's just kicked the shit out of Victoria's Secret. It's taking all that margin and all that. Yeah, the world has dramatically changed. I can't get over, though. Well, it's a longer conversation. I love specialty retail, but I really Enjoy your work.

All right. Thank you, Shantal Fernandez and Marine Sherman.

Lean in.

Lean into the dirty. Again, the book is Selling Sexy, Victoria's Secret and the Unraveling of an American Icon.

Thank you so much.

Thank you both. All right, Scott. I love how you come alive when it comes to special You love that specialty retailer. You love that specialty retailer.

Who built William Sinema's first website in 1994, Claire? I know.

I like that. I like that about you. You have a lot of expertise. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails. As you're probably aware, the Monendez brothers were sentenced in 1996 for the murders of their parents.

There were no TV cameras in court when Eric and Lyle Menendez finally heard 12 citizens render judgment. They were convicted of murdering them in and sentenced to life in prison without parole.

But recently, we've had a pair of polarizing shows on Netflix that have revived the conversation around them.

I can't sleep.

Ever since I watched the Menendez Brothers, the Monster movie, whatever on Netflix.

I can't stop thinking about it. We've also had some newly re-encovered evidence that has prompted the Los Angeles district attorney to consider a motion to vacate their convictions entirely. I don't think that they deserve to be in prison until die.

I don't believe that.

So all this is happening at the same time, so they're in the news again. On Today Explained, Reconsidering the Menendez Brothers. You can find us every weekday wherever you get your podcasts.

Support for Pivot comes from Anthropic. If your company could tap into a powerful source of knowledge, analysis, and creative problem solving, imagine what you could achieve. Innovative ideas could be realized faster than ever. Claude, the AI system from Anthropic empowers your team to rise to new levels of productivity and innovation by providing vast knowledge and rapid analysis. With Claude, your existing talent can harness cutting-edge AI to work smarter, brainstorm bigger, and pursue visionary goals, complementing human ingenuity. What a word salad. I'm going off script just to tell you I, no joke, use Claude almost every day. I think it's fantastic. Claude is next-generation AI assistant built to help you work more efficiently without sacrificing safety or reliability. Anthropics Midway model, Claude 3.5 Sonic, can help you organize thoughts, solve tricky problems, analyze data, and more, whether you're brainstorming alone or working on a team with thousands of people. All at a price that works for just about any use case. If you're trying to crack a problem involving advanced reasoning, need to distill the essence of complex images or graphs, or generate heaps of secure code, cloud is a great way to save time and money.

Plus, the Anthropic Leadership Team was founded in AI research and built cloud with an emphasis on safety. To learn more, visit anthropic. Com/claud. That's anthropic. Com/claud.

Hi, folks. This is Kara Swischer. This week in podcast on with Kara Swischer, I'm talking to Tony Stark, also known as Ironman, also known as Oscar-winning actor, Robert Downey Jr, about his Broadway debut in McNeill. He plays a writer who goes down the AI rabbit hole and doesn't to come out.

We're in a new era where I believe that we ultimately will rest control of these things because the few may have had too much power for too long. But I feel that McNeill, particularly, people are leaving the theater feeling a little bit less terrified and a little more hopeful because they're feeling that this is ultimately a human story.

Along with playwright Ayad Akhtar and director Bart Sheer, we talk about the play, The Implications of for creatives and whether or not new tech can change social power dynamics. We also talked about the MCU, of course. I'm a huge fan. Have a listen to On with Kara Swischer wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. You go first.

Well, my win is I just wanted to bring some attention. I was thinking, how do I show Leanne and Pia some gratitude here? I just want to talk a little bit about the WMBA The playouts average 970,000 viewers across the 17 playoff games. That's 142% increase over 2023. One year, they're up two and a half fold. They attracted an all-time record of more than 54 million unique viewers this season. In-person attendance averaged 9,800 fans, up 48% from last season. Merchandise sales increased 601% from 2023. The WMBA received nearly 2 billion videos across its social media platforms, more than quadruple last season's total. The nice thing here is at some point this money, this incremental attendance is going to result in a TV contract and higher salaries. The other thing that just blew me away, I was asking all about the players. A decent number of the players on the court had given birth.

Yeah, they have kids. They're wives and- Slamming into each other.

Anyway, it was my win. My win is the WMBA. Again, thank you, Leanne. My work is done. My kid now A lot of time. And Pia for inviting me to such a great event. My loss is... I know that just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm wrong. And that is when I see young Americans and the way the things they're saying and the way they're behaving on campus and the things they say online. I really do believe that they have an entirely incorrect view of America right now. And I That's something you've talked about a lot. Well, folks. Okay, so let's just go. I think at the end of the day, the most important thing a government can do is ensure rights, defend our borders, and also create a context for prosperity. That's Latin for a healthy economy. Let's talk about our economy right here, right now. We are at full employment. We have the lowest unemployment since 1968. If you turn on certain networks or listen in a certain podcast, they'd have you believe that it's the fucking depression. Our inflation is at 2.2%..

By the way, the lowest- Bill Maher was pointing this out.

The lowest in the G7. Okay, hold on. What about GDP? What about growth? It's the strongest in the world. We are going to be responsible for 80%, according to the World Bank, of 2025 forecast in GDP. In 1990, the US accounted for two-fifths of GDP of the G7. Today, it makes up half. Output per person is now 30% higher than in Western Europe and Canada and 60% higher than in Japan. Gaps that have roughly doubled since 1990. Mississippi is America's poorest state. That's the worst in the US economically, but its hardworking residents earn on average more than Brits, Canadians, or Germans. Then lately, China has gone backwards, having closed in rapidly on America in the years before the pandemic. Its nominal GDP has slipped from about three quarters of America's in 2021 to two-thirds today. By the way, I should note, I'm parenting all of this from Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, my friend and world-class academic from Yale. The US under Biden became the world's largest energy producer. We produce a third more energy than the Saudis and Russia. Biden granted 50% more oil and gas drilling permits than under Trump. Biden's deficit- Trump It's dark vision of this country is completely off.

The Biden deficit was cut by one-third. It tripled under Trump. Immigration the last six months is far below Trump's border crossings the last six months under Trump. An unrivaled 76 record highs in the stock market in the last year. Folks, young people, yeah, we still have work to do, but there are 190 sovereign nations in the world. In terms of your prosperity, your rights, your ability to express who you want to be, 189 would trade places with us. So yeah, we got work to do, but also take some pause in just how ridiculously fucking lucky and pat yourself on. All right, Scott says you're lucky. Hold on. The smartest decision you have made was to be born in America. And the notion that it is really bad right now, don't buy it. Don't buy it.

All right. You're sounding a little like Obama there. I think My Win was a really wonderful movie, SNL, which I think is doing was relatively funny this week. And by the way, Billy Eilish is so fantastic. They had Michael Keaton as the guest, and Maya Rudolf was great. But they had a skit about scrolling TikTok that was so funny because it was exactly true. It's this video. I go find it because it makes you laugh hysterically. And they were parading all the different genres of TikTok, and I thought it was just on point. It made me laugh and laugh and laugh because it was exactly like TikTok is, all this ridiculous stuff. They did a beautiful job of it, which is something that made me laugh. My I feel are these lies that keep getting, and I know you say they get attention and this and that, but I think it dovetails into what you were talking about is that Trump just was on a thing saying that people go to school and they come back transgender. He just repeats it again. I saw that. He's done it.

You say goodbye. Have a lovely day. You love me. You love beautiful little boy. You come back, Barbara. And they come back. They come back a girl. Yeah, that happens all the time.

Never. And these late term abortions and these incredible lies they tell are just repulsive. This is not what America is. These are dark and sick people. I'm sorry. Same thing with Elon Musk, lying about dominion, lying about this. He did a series of lies, and they have lies that are unchecked. Let me tell you something, they're not unchecked. Someday, someday. I'm sorry. I think there's going to be such a backlash against this behavior, this failure of not our best natures. It's really grotesque to see some of them. Then the Republicans defending this. Mike Johnson, who is such a tool, when Jake Tapper was mentioning the Arnold Palmer thing, was pretending it didn't matter. It does matter. This discourse brings us all down. We are, as Scott said, a great country, and this is so beneath us, this dark, ugly, lying, pieces of shit version of our country. Again, fuck you. That's not where we are. We're much better than that. I have kids, Scott has kids. We have great hopes for them, and they are great people. It's just gross. These are terrible role models, and the sooner they're gone, the better. Anyway, we want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag. Com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8555.1 pivot. On that note, the results from last episode's threads poll are in. In response to the question, how often are you personally using AI? 31% of you answered daily. This is amazing. 20% of you answered weekly, 31% of you answered occasionally, and 18% of you answered never. Interesting. Anything to say very quickly to the 18% who said never?

When I first moved to New York, my team interviewed and hired an assistant for me, and she walked in and we were talking. She said, Oh, I don't use computers. I said, You can't work here. If you want to be gainfully employed in America, you need to understand AI the same way we needed to understand computers.

Excellent. That's an excellent thing. Scott is not having any of your shit, any of you today. Anyway, that's because he's a lesbian now. Power lesbian. Power lesbian. Excuse me. Hello, ladies. Okay, Barbara. That's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more Read Us Out.

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Unterteid engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Severo, and Dan Shulun. Nishad Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you're listening to podcast. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag. Com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown. Of all things tech and business, congratulations to the world champion, New York Liberty.