Transcript of Nicole LePera: How to Break the Cycle of Trauma Bonds & Stop Toxic Relationship Habits

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Health and wellness podcast. Jay shetty jay shetty the one, the.

Only jay shetty hey everyone. Welcome back to on Purpose, the place that you come back to every single week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so happy that you chose to tune in today because today's episode is going to be one that I know each and every one of you can deeply relate to. If you've been talking recently with your friends about trauma bonds, this episode is for you. If you've been struggling with a relationship in your life, romantic or otherwise, this episode is for you. And if you're someone who's just been trying to figure out how to navigate boundaries, how to navigate all the different roles you play in a relationship, the challenges that come from stress responses we've developed early on in our childhood, this episode is for you. I'm speaking about a guest who's been on once before. You absolutely loved our conversation. The one and only Doctor, Nicole Lapera, a holistic psychologist trained at Cornell University, the new School for Social Research and the Philadelphia School of Psychoanalysis. Nicole is the founder of the global community healing membership self healer Circle and the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, how to do the work, how to meet yourself.

And today we're discussing her latest book, how to be the Love. You seek, break cycles, find peace, and heal your relationships. If you don't have this book already, I want you to go and order it right now. We're diving in. Please welcome to the show doctor Nicole. Nicole, it's great to have you back.

It's such an honor to be here. Jay, thank you.

Thank you so much for coming back onto the show. Like we were saying, we were together like three years ago and so much has happened. But what I've loved is to see your influence, your impact and your insights continue to grow and take mainstream attention. And I think it's so deserving and so worthy the work that you're doing. And I'm so happy that we get to reconnect and do this again. So thank you.

Of course, I'm honored to be here. And when you pointed out that it has been three years, I mean, my head almost popped off. And you talk about a lot, a lot happening, a lot of possibility. I'm just, again, so honored to connect with you and your community.

Yeah, well, I know this is going the community. So let's dive straight in. You start very emphatically in the book, and the title says you create change. And I think for a lot of people that hear that, I think a lot of us feel we don't have the power to change things. We don't feel we have the ability to change things. We feel that our life is a constant bombardment of things happening to us, of things that other people do towards us. And you very boldly state you create change. I know so many people who feel like they don't know how to change. They can't change. They're stuck. What makes you so certain and conscious that you can create change?

I think, too nowhere is this the reality of being stuck, so prevalent, but in our relationships, I think, and that's really what inspired this new work, is to understand why. Is it? Because what I would hear after writing my first book, how to do the work from many individuals on the healing journey, oh, I'm making traction. I'm starting to feel good in my life, and I'm feeling either ready to be in a relationship or I'm in a relationship, and it's in my relationship where I'm really stuck. And similar to what I talked about in my first book. So much of how we relate is governed by our subconscious mind, meaning outside of our awareness. So to answer your question really simply, I think why we don't believe we can create change is because of everything that's happening beneath the iceberg, if you will, or in our subconscious mind, within our relationships. Everything from beliefs about ourself as you even shared in the intro roles and identities that we've learned to play. Deep wounding, which contains these moments of nervous system dysregulation and reactivity, and ultimately, when we have these chain of events, these meanings, interpretations that our subconscious mind is making to the happenings or not happenings in our relationship, when that is connected, then to physiological shifts in my body, those nervous system moments of dysregulation, and then when we tune in, typically, is either mid reaction or somewhere shamefully post reaction.

And until we've paid conscious attention or simply awareness to all of the different parts of the story that contribute it to what feels like an instinctive reaction, I'm compelled to do this thing. I can't stop behaving in this way, or the world continues to create the same struggles, the same feelings, the same cycles. And I think it then becomes really natural that we don't feel like we have choice. And I think how I convince us all that we do have choice is as we become aware of what's going on beneath the surface, as we become aware of the beliefs and the physiology that is driving those changes, we can begin to create just a little bit of space. Because, I mean, I could sit up here and explain to many listeners why we don't feel in choice until we embody the practice of being able to pause before that habitual reaction. It's going to be really hard for me to convince us all that we can create change. But when we have the tools to view our internal world in a new way, including our body and all of the stress reaction that's housed in it, then I think we do have that empowered shift.

Where I can possibly convince you that there is choice and change possible in your future?

Absolutely. One of the things I hear a lot from our community and our audience when I'm talking to people is Jay. I'm just surrounded by toxic family members. I'm trying to change. I'm trying to be better. But there's someone in my family who'll always say something at that dinner that triggers me. There'll be someone who, at the holiday party will say something to me that will trigger me. There'll be someone that I'm living with in the house every day, who sees me meditate, who sees me trying to work out, but has something condescending to say, how do I navigate this toxic person that I can't just distance myself from? I can't run away from them. They're in my life. What do I do?

And I think an empowering shift we can make is to even just first ask ourselves that question, what can we do? Because I think it's really natural to instinctively say, well, I shouldn't have to do anything. If this toxic person could be more supportive of this positive habit, or if this person could be a little less whatever, you know, they're bringing to the table, I could then feel different. I think the shift of empowerment happens when we say, let's assume and even expect that this person doesn't change, that these comments continue the lack of support, whatever it is, and especially when it's within our family. I like to offer a bit of insight. I think a lot of times we do struggle and we'll continue to struggle, especially within our family, with these long term relationships. There have been expectations that have been validated over time, and so we really do fall into these kind of learned dynamics. So as we begin even to shift into something positive for ourselves, for the relationship, it's going to challenge the dynamics of the system, because what the person on the other end will be experiencing is something new.

And I'm very intentionally using that word because while we all can create, I mean, I just made a case for all of the change that we can create at any time in our life. Our nervous system prefers the habitual. And even within these roles in our relationships, people have learned to predict that we show up in predictable ways. And if and when we don't, it actually activates now a threat response based on this new experience that someone else is having of us. Now, I went to that description, of course, because sometimes with that awareness, we can engage with the person sharing that comment with us, with the person not supporting us in that way differently. We can have a bit of compassion, maybe understanding where they're coming from. We might even shift our expectation of that person giving us the support or sharing with us something positive in terms of what it is that we're doing. If we give up that expectation, I think a lot of us can learn to navigate those relationships, because what causes our suffering, in my opinion, is the unmet expectation. But then, of course, I want to just touch quickly on the reality sometimes of boundary changes, of new limits, maybe conversations, topics that we don't bring to this relationship.

If we aren't going to get the support or the feedback that we need. We can actually modify ultimately what it is that we do or how it is that we engage with the person.

I was talking to, someone that was coaching, and they were talking about a particular trait that they saw in their partner. And I said, have you seen this trait before? And they said, yes. And I said, how many times have you seen it? And they thought about it for a second, and they said, every year we've been together. And I said, how long have you been together? And they said, 30 years. And it was really interesting because you addressed this at the start of the book, this idea that you can't. We. A lot of books have told us in the past that if we change our behavior, it will somehow change the behavior of the other person. That if you can mold and be malleable and manipulate your own words, thoughts, and actions, that somehow it will create a behavioral response from someone else. But I think what you're saying right now as well is that actually, even if we change our behavior, our expectation that that is somehow going to inspire this other individual to do a U turn is actually kind of like a fool's errand. Like, it doesn't seem to be something that's going to show.

And I think that's kind of a hard reality to accept. We almost feel that we can get people to change, and they will change for me, and I am important enough. If they cared enough, they would change. So how do we let go of that expectation? How do we build a process and a system to actually recognize? My expectation with this individual needs to shift, because I keep seeing the same pattern day after day, month after month, year after year. But I keep fooling myself that this will be the year they change. This will be the month that it all changes. For me.

I think a lot of times we set that expectation or have that fantasy for the future out of a protection against the pain and suffering that being in the alternate reality of what is happening. The fact that this is a pattern that has lasted 30 plus years, just to use your client as an example, that would cause a lot of grief, a reckoning, almost, maybe even a new choice point where this person would be at a crossroads. Either I remove this expectation and then modify in terms of what this relationship is or means to me, or maybe I determine I can't do that. And now I might need to shift or remove myself from the relationship. And this kind of thinking, which I'm going to call right now immature thinking. But not as a kind of derogatory label, more as a developmental stage. And I think it's really emblematic of what happens in childhood. For a lot of us. A lot of us in childhood spent a lot of time when we didn't have the physically present. Or the emotionally attuned caregiver. That we need it in this kind of fantasy world. Because the pain of being rejected, of not feeling the support.

And the attunement that we need is so great. And I think a lot of us continue that as a protective pattern into adulthood. With this idea that I can just imagine, create this future in my mind. That keeps me separate from the reality of my present moment. I think a lot of times then we hang those expectations on our partner. Giving them, again, all of our power, all of our control. Even for very well intentioned reasons sometimes we want to support them. We might want to see them create change that we know. And they know that they need in their lives. But again, when we are putting all of our energy on someone else in that way. Not only do we not have access to it for ourselves. It's felt by the other person. Even if it's not directly felt. It's indirectly felt as a pressure. So, again, I want to normalize, I think, the tendency to fantasize, to wish even the very well intentioned actions that we can take. Sometimes seemingly in support of someone else. Though I just acknowledge the reality. Of the many of us. Who have created very difficult change in our life.

It takes a daily commitment of having new experiences. That will challenge our nervous system. And learning how to create change anyway. So, with that said, having this idea that someone else can or will change for us. Is putting an unrealistic expectation on that person. Because the only person that can create change is us and our commitment. And are showing up day in, day out in action, ultimately, of that change.

What are some of the other ways. That our childhood. Impacts our current present and future selves? Because I think obviously, in society and culture. We are talking about this idea of what we went through as kids shows up in who we are now. But I think we have quite a rudimentary, basic understanding. Of how that actually shows up. And I don't know if we're always as conscious. I found the more I've delved into this. The more subtle my understanding became of myself. So, for example, at one point I realized that one of my caregivers. Had always given me a lot of love. But they also made me feel guilty when I didn't reciprocate that love. And I found myself replicating that in loving relationships as such. A subtle, hidden thing where I would overly give love, but then express words or behaviors that would make the other person feel guilty if I didn't feel like they lived up to my version of it. And it took me a while to really recognize that, to heal that, to remove that from my vocabulary and my behavior, but knowing that it wasn't something that was bad about me or that I'd created or that I could blame and recognize was so powerful.

But what are the ways in which our early childhood experiences are affecting our current relationships and, of course, future relationships?

I think this conversation into the subtlety of it is so foundationally important because I know that there's a lot of us, especially as we kind of progress through adulthood, that has this idea that, well, childhood is decades ago. It's actually a space that I don't want to go back to, right. I'm an adult now, and it doesn't impact me because I do think we look for the kind of more obvious signs. But there are so many kind of ways in which, from what we were made in childhood to directly or indirectly think about ourself ultimately becomes those deep rooted beliefs that we carry and continue to think about ourselves into adulthood in terms of our emotions, the way in which we were allowed to express our emotions, the support we had in which navigating our emotions, simply the level of attunement that our caregivers gave us, will directly impact our current relationship in adulthood with our emotions and our ability to be responsively present to them, as opposed to reactive. The way those identities that you talked about earlier, the way in which we've learned in childhood to connect or relate, which, for a lot of us, meant shoving down parts of our self expression, not showing certain aspects of our thoughts, of our emotions, of our just general self and or amplifying other aspects.

So really simply how at one time, we had to connect with or relate to another individual, ultimately becomes those same roles that we play in our current relationship. So when we begin to truly understand not only the individual impact, right? Do I know myself? Do I know how to navigate my emotions? Do I know how to give and receive support in a relationship? To then, relationally, who am I? So much as a remnant or an artifact, in my opinion, of who we once had to be? Which is why we have an epidemic, in a sense, of adults who don't know themselves, who don't have the emotional resilience that they need to remain responsive to their emotions and who are showing up in all of these kind of masks, playing all of these roles, and are feeling deeply unfulfilled, even those of us that are actively in relationships.

Yeah, I feel like there's this contention between a lot of us in relationships are fighting for who we were. Like, there's a defense to, this is how I've been raised. This is what I think is right. This is what I've been told. These are my beliefs. And then there's another part of us that's trying to then cater to and sway towards. Oh, no. But I know I need to take on some of yours as well. And that kind of often creates a bit of conflict on an identity level, because we're wondering, well, what parts of myself do I leave behind? But then am I trading for their values? Then are their values right? How do you kind of make sense of all of that? Because it seems like you've got your early childhood impact, the person you have a relationship with, as their early childhood impact. You've now become adults. Now you're interacting. There's a lot of complexity there because you may not even be aware of your own, let alone they may not be aware of theirs. And so you don't have any context of theirs. So it feels like there's a lot of unknown unknowns in a lot of relationships.

And then you're fighting about the dishes or the, you know, the bills, or you're fighting about something that feels very current. But would you say that actually a lot of it is based on pre existing data?

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I already believe in myself. I already see myself.

And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh, great, you see me too.

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I think you beautifully Jay described why relationships are so complicated. Why, as I said in the beginning, so many of us continue to struggle wherever we are on our healing journey, within our relationships, because we do have all of these influences, many of which that are out of sight and knowing for ourself, of course, because we can only receive information that partners or potential partners are sharing. But I feel like the individual journey of awareness, of even first reckoning with the possibility that our past is impacting us and then getting really present to what habits and patterns we are carrying in to our relationship. And then once I think we get really clear in terms of what is on our side of the street, then we can simply, before we know the details of kind of what is in the subconscious world of our potential partners or our loved ones, we can at least have awareness that they have that world right. That many of the fights that we're having, like you're sharing many fights I have had over dishes, isn't necessarily about dishes at all. For me personally, I know that there was a lot of reactivity that I used to have when I would get home from work and I would come home and dishes weren't done in the sink.

And for me, again, all beneath the iceberg, what was happening is I went through as if I was removed or brought right back in time to childhood, where I lacked the emotionally attuned caregiver, though I had a caregiver who was very. The way she expressed love, my mom was through daily self care, making sure that there was dinner on the table, making sure that the dishes were done. Those were not chores that I had as children. So, for me, I have this belief that those acts of service communicate someone's consideration of me, someone's love and support of me. So now flash forward in time when those kind of household duties aren't done, regardless of how my partner is showing up. And there were many moments where I was welcomed home with support, with interest, with curiosity. How was my day going? Open for me to talk and share how my day went, yet my laser focus on the lack of the dishes being done and the fact that that brought me back as if I was the child who didn't have that level of attunement, even though it was available in my adult moment, it was as if my focus deleted it.

I was back in time, I was wounded, and I reacted right from that place. So just using my example, your example, I think all of these really beautifully give us. Because when a moment in time elicits a really big reaction, and this isn't to say I want to be really careful here. The emotion that I was feeling in the moment at the dishes was very real. Physiologically, I had tension in my muscles. My heart was racing. I was having an emotion. It's not to shame ourself in that moment. Going back in time doesn't negate the reality of the emotional experience that we're having, which is why a lot of us feel out of control, feel like we can't choose a responsive choice, feel like we are instinctually kind of compelled to react in that one way, though, we do have that choice. If we can teach ourself again that separation, if we can understand that big emotions are real, though a lot of times do indicate something from an earlier time and a lot of times it explains why our reaction can be on the more immature. Again, just developmental side of things.

Yeah, no, I'm so glad you went there because I think that is such a poignant example of how this all works. And it's nice to take something as simple as a visual of a dishes and then where that comes from. What do we do with that awareness though, Nicole? Like, what do we do with that awareness? Because I think a lot of people will recognize. Oh, got it. I've just heard what Nicole said. Yeah, that's right. When my partner does x, it reminds me of how my parent did Y. Or when my partner doesn't do y, it reminds me of men my parent did X. Or whatever it may be. That version that you have while you're listening right now and for everyone who's listening and watching, I think we go, I see that. But it's. I've crossed that bridge so many times that it's. I've got so used to feeling that it's. Not only is it real, but it's true to me that if someone doesn't do the dishes, they don't care about me. Like, we've put that meaning to it, right. We've ascribed that very deep self worth to an act, right. Because of the amount of times that it's gone on and on and on.

Let's say we're fortunate enough to even get that awareness because even that requires so much work to even be able to admit that, even though it's real, even though I feel it, even though it feels true, that it necessarily isn't true. It's just a belief that I've built over time. What do I do with that awareness? Because I feel so conditioned by it. I see, I feel so stuck in it. And guess what? My partner still doesn't do the dishes, even when they understand this. So where do I go from there? What do I do?

I think that first piece of communication can go a long way as we get clear on ourselves. Of course, when we feel safe and secure in our particular relationships, we can gift that knowledge because that might be the difference between. Between our partner. Then this is, I think, what happens within relationships when we kind of enter into conflict cycles. We have one person regressing back in time, becoming reactive, and then typically something in their reactivity sets off the receiving partner who then goes back in time. And now we almost have two children. Kind of like sparring. Not able to, though, enter their wise adult or more grounded, if you will. So, for a lot of people, that awareness is incredibly helpful, right. For a partner in a moment to say, okay, this isn't really about the dishes, even though I'm feeling very frustrated that I'm getting yelled at, that the dishes aren't done right now, I maybe can compassionately breathe through. For the person who's uncovering there's important information in these moments. Again, it's not to throw away the emotion or to shame ourself for having it. Those emotions carry important information. Right? So if at the bottom of this, for a lot of us, there is an unmet need, maybe it's not.

Maybe the support I need in that moment isn't about the dishes, but maybe there is support I'm needing in a different area or a different type of support that I could benefit from. So, understanding what's driving our reactivity, I think, can give us not only the language to communicate, it can give us clarity on what's really going on, which then can give us flexibility in other ways that we can attempt to get that need met. Because this is where I think it gets even more complicated, what many of us are seeking me, right? Even if I came home and all of the dishes were done, that wasn't going to remove what I felt in the kind of, like, pit of my heart. And I do. It feels like a visceral. As long as I can remember, there was a pressure feeling on my chest that wouldn't remove that feeling, because where that was coming from was from a lack of emotional attunement. So even if everyone that I surround myself with cleans my dishes from now until the end of time, if they're not giving me that emotional attunement that I need, if I'm not participating in that emotional attunement that I need, because I'm not present in my own emotional body and sharing them.

Right, you get the picture. Then I will just have a lot of clean dishes for a very long time, and I'll still have that. That pit in that hole. And I think this is why a lot of us cycle through reactivity. We maybe do directly communicate. Maybe even sometimes our partner does the dishes, and we still don't feel satisfied. We still don't feel fulfilled. We still don't feel that connection or that support that we're looking for. Because what I think a lot of us are actually looking for are not the actions we're looking for that deep level of attunement. We're looking for that resonance. We're looking to just feel a little less alone, even if no one is saying anything to us because they're just sitting in that emotional presence or that emotional space with us.

Yeah. And I think you're so right. Going back to what you said earlier, we have to sit in that space with ourselves in order to invite someone to sit in it with us because they can't just find that space. Right. It's almost like you have a basement level in your psyche that you have the key and access to in the elevator. And if you don't invite someone into that because you haven't visited it before, they're just on level one trying to figure out where you want them to go. And I'm literally visualizing inception right now, the movie where all of his dreams are locked in a. Locked in an elevator. But I think that feels so true to me that I find that even with my wife, we had a really interesting conversation recently. So her book came out this year, and before the book was coming out, this was like maybe a month before the book came out. And I said, I really want to understand how you'd like us to celebrate this occasion because I don't think I know now we've been together for eleven years, married for eight years. And I just said, I don't think I really have understood, not just how you like to celebrate because that, I know we've celebrated great birthdays and you've had a great time, but I don't know how you'd like to celebrate this occasion in your life.

It's different. I don't want to take it like anything. And I said my assumption, which would be wrong because it's a projection of how I'd like to be celebrated. Mine would be to throw you a big party, invite all your friends over and, you know, have loads of great food and everything. But I was like, I think that's wrong. Like, I know that. So how would. And she said something really beautiful. She goes, she goes, we. I felt like we celebrated it last night. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, well, we had our friends over. I cooked for them from the cookbook. I made meals for them. They all really enjoyed the food. And I was like, yeah, but we didn't like, it was just a d and she was like, that's how I like to celebrate it because I got to cook what I love for people I love, and they appreciated it. And that was me celebrating it. And I was like, oh, wow, I could have just, that would have been easy. And it was just this really interesting thing about this communication, like, and I said to my wife, I said, after she, I said, please inform me of things like that, because I would have no idea, like, if you don't let me in, if you don't invite me into that space of this is how I like to be celebrated.

And she goes, you know what? I don't think I've thought about it until you ask me right now. And so it was a joint discovery. And I think, I think if people look at their relationship, it's not like, oh, you've kept me out and you haven't let me in, and you don't tell me. It's actually more like we're actually just figuring this out. Like, both of us on an awareness level are figuring this out.

I think that's, that's such a beautiful story. I'm smiling. I was so struck when I first met Lally, who I've been with her for a little over ten years now, and she has such a curiosity. One of the things that attracted me very early on to her about everything, she's just so interested in life, people understanding them. And this was completely different than the experience I had in my family. I was never necessarily asked what I thought about certain things or how I was experiencing certain things, that more or less kind of, we operate it with this kind of unified front in my family, with a lot of projection. If one member felt or thought this thing, there was the assumption that everyone thought or felt that same way. So now flash forward decades, and I'm with Lally, who's always curiously asking me my perspective on things, how I'm experiencing things, what I think. And I was so shocked and at a loss, if I'm honest, Jay, I had a hard time answering a lot of her curiosity in the beginning.

Oh, Rodney, too.

I didn't know. I didn't stop to think. So I'm imagining myself being asked how I would have liked to celebrate something, and that would have been a gift of exploration for me to have and to consider, and I think what you're sharing. I had a moment with Jenna, so my third partner and I the other day in one of these very similar moments that you're describing. And we were sitting in the car, and she was very quiet, and I noticed a pattern of when we're out, typically driving in a car, and that's a lot of the time where her and I are out doing things together. She's very quiet. And so I'm over here. Conditioned from my childhood to assign the meaning to quiet, which is danger, bad, silent treatment. You upset someone, because this is the experience that time and time happened again in my childhood. So I'm sitting in the car, and this is. I mean, we've been together now for over two years, Jenna and I. So for two years now, I'm driving in silent car rides. I've not said a word. Just in my mind, worried, oh, gosh, maybe we have nothing to talk about.

Like, isn't this, like, I have things on my mind. I would try to engage conversation. She would give me one word answer. So finally, just last week, I said, I just want to bring something up. I notice that you're quite quiet when we are out in the car together, you know, and it opened up a beautiful, you know, self awareness opportunity or couple awareness where she was like, oh, you know what? I guess I am. I really like to just look out the window and look at the scenery and listen to the music that we have on. It's really as simple as that. Meanwhile, I spent the better part of two years secretly worried.

Right?

So. So I think these are really beautiful examples of how simple some of the steps that we can take are and also how complicated humans make it. Because we do project.

Totally.

We do. We are subjective creatures who are projecting all of the time. And I'm just sitting at, like, I have a lot of compassion for myself. Just all of this suffering that, you know, causing ourselves without just having the direction, conversation, and communication.

Yeah. We think we know what someone is thinking, which is all based on how we think. We feel affected by that. Right? Like, we think others are affected by things the way we are. And therefore, if someone's quiet, we believe they're quiet. Because if I was quiet, that means I'm upset. And therefore, if they're quiet, they're upset. And what's really interesting to me is when we communicate, which I'm so glad you're raising that, because it sounds basic, but it's not, because a lot of people, when we communicate, we just say, well, I wish you'd talk more in the car. I wish you'd just know how you want to celebrate your birthday. I wish you'd just tell me what you want me to do. And that's not communication. Those are almost demand or control mechanisms or, like, kind of. They're kind of orders in one sense, like giving an order to someone as opposed to saying, hey, you know, because of how I've grown up, I feel when someone goes quiet, it means there's something wrong. What does it mean for you? Like, why is that important for you? And I think that's what communication is.

It's a safe space to explore and be curious. And one of the things you brought about earlier was this idea of how the nervous system seeks familiarity. And what's really interesting is on the COVID you talk about finding peace. And what's really interesting is that all of our familiarity is chaos. And so when there is peace in a relationship, when there is quote unquote boredom in a relationship, when there's quote unquote stillness in a relationship, a lot of us who are familiar with chaos go, wait a minute, what's going on? Because we're familiar with it. And so I want to clarify what familiarity means, because I think we think familiarity means a good thing, but we don't realize familiarity just means what you're used to. And so talk to me about how should we respond to peaceful scenarios when we're familiar with chaos.

I appreciate this because I think this is such a common experience, myself included, with a lot of stress, overwhelming stress in the home. There was a sense of home that I would receive when in stressful relationships or when interacting with stressful individuals. So familiarity really simply is repetition. It's that which is predictable. Right. It's kind of thinking of the neural networks even. I think that is very common in our language. I can't think of the word, you know, dialog these days. So understanding. Again, familiar is repeated. Right. It doesn't mean there is no good bad label that we can put on it. And a lot of people who have had chaotic early experiences will exactly, like you, beautifully said, get to those moments, even meet a person. And without that rush of chemicals, we'll assume it's not the appropriate relationship. And one of the biggest takeaways I hope that people get from reading this book is kind of two part first being the awareness that the way we're defining and relating to other individuals, like I said at the beginning, is more of an imprint or an artifact of our past than an objective reality about our present.

And then once we understand that, I think that could open the door for some of us to become aware that what we are seeking and recreating in terms of familiarity, repetition is grounded more in stress, chaos, maybe even trauma, unmet needs, than in a grounded, secure, peaceful love, because that's what we're really looking to create and understanding that our nervous system is playing a foundational role in that. Meaning, if I'm not able as an individual, to self soothe or to find safe, secure others with which I can co regulate with, if I'm not able to create safety in myself, then chances are I'm not going to be able to interact with another human and find that secure grounding. So when I understand, again, the role that I'm playing, the role that my nervous system is playing, that my nervous system is playing, a role that I can't just wish my way into a calm, grounded relationship, I actually have to teach my body how to have one. And I also understand that that does not mean that I won't experience conflict or disagreement or disconnection. Because I think sometimes after we unlearn and create the possibility of even being safe and secure, I think sometimes people then have the immediate expectation that a safe, secure relationship is one without conflict, without disagreement.

Right. Without unmet needs in any given moment. Because things need to be negotiated, right. And that is included in a safely grounded relationship in actuality, because anytime two individuals who are uniquely different are trying to relate and navigate life and make decisions for a future of shared interests, there are going to be those votes of disconnection. So the goal is not to remove or expect those to not be present. How can I always find my way back to safety and security? Is the great, the best question. How can I repair after these moments of explosion or these moments of disconnection, assuming that they will still be present? And how can I always continue to expand that foundation within my relationship of safety and security? It doesn't mean that there won't be upsetting emotions or moments of dysregulation, but we can, as a system, return back to that peace and that grounded state of calm.

Yeah. How do you know on that point of when there is love? I think we always hear things like, you'll know when you know. And you know, you just feel it. Like no matter what, you love someone. Like, I find that it's so interesting because like we said, you're not familiar with peace, so when peace comes up, you create chaos. We're not familiar with love. And so how do you know love is there? Because you may not be familiar from your childhood with what it feels like to be loved unconditionally or wonderfully, in whatever way that means. How do we then find it? How do we then notice it? Because we don't necessarily have a clear experience of it.

Yeah, that's a.

It's a really, it's a beautiful question. Even to consider, and I. A painful, I think, question, too. To come to the reality that we might not have that embodied memory, if you will. Of what it actually feels like to be in this sense of safety and security and love. And I think maybe this. It would benefit a discussion of love, maybe really generally. Because I think when people think of love. And it's not to say it's not a feeling, though the way I define love, at least, is. It is a feeling in connection with an action. It's a sense of compassion, of consideration. Let me even bring it back. Of awareness of another individual. And then the ability to be considerate, compassionate. Not only in thought and feeling. I can sit here and feel a sense of love for you. But I believe love extends beyond that into an action. Am I able to then show up in this embodiment. Whether it's just to support you in being present with you when you're in an emotion that's upsetting or overwhelming. Whether it's to show up in more active or objective support of you in whatever way that it is that you might need it.

So to know if we're able to or when in which we're in that space. Again, all of this goes back to the body. Because unless we're present in our body, in our emotions. Unless we're able to feel right, to attune emotionally, to hold space and to sense that there is someone else that I want to consider. And to show those levels of care. We have to be grounded in our body. To connect with our heart, to connect with the emotion of compassion and care. And then to act from that embodied place. Because, again, what we're looking for is that presence. That's a loving action in and of itself. Outside of the other ways, of course, that we can more objectively support someone. So, again, I think it's. If we're looking for that roller coaster of biochemical emotions, if we're looking for us to be like, you know, kind of hit over the head with this, like, love spell, I think, again, we're going to be looking for something that might not necessarily exist. Because, again, I think love happens in those grounded moments. We're able to extend space and awareness that there is someone else that I can and want to care about.

Because when we're in a survival mode, when we're not calm and grounded and safe and secure in our own body. We can't even consider a perspective outside of our own. Let alone show up in care and compassion of that perspective or that individual and their best interest. So, again, foundationally in the body. I can't make a case enough for how important it is to be in loving action. We have to be connected to our body, our heart, and particular. We have to be grounded and safe in our nervous system and responsive in how we choose to show up.

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This point about being connected to your body is so valuable. And I recently discovered I felt deeply, for the first time, a disconnect I had with mine, and it came from my childhood. I remember when I was young, I would say probably preteens, and maybe into my early teenage years, there was a. I used to experience my heart beating fast, losing my breath, like, feeling quite physically what would be considered, like, even, like, pain in the heart region, like, tight chestedness, like, physically. And I remember I would tell my mom, and my mom would take me to the doctors, and we go to the doctors. They'd wire me up with certain, like, technology or tools that would measure my heart rate and things like that, and they'd tell me to wear it for the next 24 hours, sometimes the next 72 hours, and I'd wear it to school or whatever. It'd be under my shirt, I remember. And then they'd look at the records, and they'd be like, he's absolutely fine. Like, he's fine. And I'd be like, I'm pretty sure I'm not fine. Like, I definitely feel something. I don't feel it for 72 hours, but I do have moments where I feel it.

And my mom would be like, well, I'm not. I'm gonna get you checked again. Cause she'd always care. And my mom's always been a very loving individual. And so she'd introduce me to more specialists, and they'd always come back and just say, oh, maybe he needs an inhaler because he has asthma. And then I remember testing that for a bit, and that wasn't it. And they were like, oh, no, sorry. We gave him an inhaler. It wasn't that. And so they wouldn't know. And I forgot about that. I think I actually started living so disconnected from my body because I didn't know what that meant, and so I didn't want to feel it anymore. And so I started reliving quite cerebrally and mentally, and I got fascinated with mastering the mind and everything else that I've done in my life. And it's so interesting that recently I was sitting with my wife. We were talking about this. I was like, I was experiencing anxiety and I was experiencing nervousness, and I was experiencing stress. And when I was ten years old, 26 years ago, no one was talking about those things. And doctors, no one was telling me that.

And where I grew up in England, like, I didn't know anyone who had a therapist until even recently. So I didn't have a therapist that was telling me that. And I feel like I focused to live outside of my body for so long because I couldn't make sense of it and because authorities and elders and experts in my life couldn't validate an experience that I was having and almost made me feel stupid for having it when I was a kid. And now I look back and I go, no wonder I lost touch with my body. And so getting back in touch with my body again is looking back at something at childhood, which I lost. And now in my life today, I feel so much more closely connected with it again, where I'm like, oh, I can spot stress. Oh, that is inside. Okay, I know what's going on. I know breath work now. I have my meditation tools, I have my toolkit to help me, but I can now experience all of it in my body. If I'm waking up earlier or I'm having disrupted sleep, I know it's because I'm stressed about something in my, my daytime.

So does that make any sense with this connecting body?

I'm shaking my head so wholeheartedly, Jay, because that feeling that I described earlier in my chest very young, I remember being a very little kid sitting there, usually laying awake at night when a lot of anxiety would happen for me. I now, looking back, believe was anxiety. And I was emotionally alone, so completely overwhelmed. And I lived then with near constant anxiety. Up through my twenties, I had panic attack after panic attack. And so two things that translated to a general disconnect from my body, so much so that when I've been an athlete my whole life, I played softball through college and generally lived in cities, walked things like that, tried to keep myself active. Anytime I would be doing a more vigorous movement and my heart rate would start to elevate and my body would start to mimic the panic attack feelings of, I would start to immediately think I was going to have a panic attack, I need to avoid it. So over time, gradually, I started to even limit, not only generally how much time I spent in my body, how much time I was moving, because certain movements would mimic and bring me back.

So anytime I would feel a discomfort, especially in my heart. I'd be like, oh, avoid that exercise. That's not for me. And so over time, disconnect it from my body, avoiding anything that could help me reconnect with my body because it felt too much like anxiety. Living that same embodied way away from my emotions on my spaceship, like I call it. Yet my number one complaint in relationship after relationship was how emotionally disconnected I felt. Just like we've been talking about point at the finger, outside of myself, it must be the person I'm picking. You're not able to meet me on my emotional level. On to the next relationship where, lo and behold, after a couple months of honeymoon and it was, you know, chemicals wore off and that I was back into were disconnected again, not seeing how all of this connected back to my childhood, overwhelmed with emotion, my body and the emotions, which were totally normal, too much for me to handle. I created this disconnect that I then lived in on this spaceship, and then I held everyone responsible for that disconnection that I was playing a part in creating. And again, if that isn't for me, was an invitation to rebuild.

And I think this is the other side of the coin here. All that awareness was beautiful. Now I'm still tasked with the daily commitment of reconnecting and living in my body. And there are a lot of moments where I still meet, whether it's physical discomfort, emotional discomfort, because now I have a lot of tension that I carry, a lot of muscles and hunched posture that I'm always trying to stretch and, you know, work out of my body, and that physical discomfort makes me want to say, you know what? I don't want to do this today. I'll do this tomorrow. Yet staying committed to releasing that tension, same thing. Emotionally, feeling really vulnerable and uncomfortable, being emotionally vulnerable and asking for the support I need. But knowing that that's what's going to create that level of attunement that I'm looking for. So all of this, for me, remains a daily commitment, because even though, logically, I can stay here and on podcast after podcast how important these things are, yet all of this wiring and this discomfort and this vulnerability and all of these beliefs are still present, that it is a conscious, intentional choice every day for me to say, no.

Nicole, foundationally, your day begins in your body. Whether it's just, you know, 20 to 30 minutes of gentle stretching and silent reflection. I'm in my own, you know, vessel before I then go and serve the world. And that isn't to say that my email isn't distracting me. I don't have all these things I should be doing running through my head every morning. But I use this as an illustration again, because I think some people think that, oh, awareness equals, oh, I just shift and change and become right, this new person. And especially if we're talking about reconnecting with our body and developing the ability to tolerate stress and upsetting emotions, that awareness is going to take a lot of practice to put into place the tools and the resources in our bodies so that we can begin to contain a, the discomfort.

Yeah. And I think that negativity you just sparked for me this thought that recently I've been practicing more as well, is that, that negativity we feel externally, when we don't like someone or someone's causing us pain, we start seeing our body in the same way. And so I found that often, even though I consider myself to be quite a positive, uplifting person for myself and for the people around me with my body, I actually sometimes have a very different relationship. And I found myself critiquing my body. I found myself being negative about it. If I've got a cold or if I've developed over Christmas, I had a really bad, ununculated tonsil. It was really, really swollen, and he was huge. You could see it if I just opened my mouth. And I was just constantly like, God, just go away. I've got so much to deal with. I need to use my voice for my work. I had this negative cycle, and one of my friends, who's a healer and a wonderful teacher in his own right, he said to me, he was just like, jaydeh, you know, you need to take the medicine, and you need, and I'd been, at this point, I'd been taking antibiotics and everything, and nothing was, it wasn't going away.

I was like, God, I've been on a course for two weeks, like, nothing's happening. And he gave me some natural remedies, but he was saying, obviously, you need to do the right remedy and take the right practice. But he was like, you need to change your relationship with this. Like, your relationship with your body is, your body's your best friend. It's telling you, hey, I'm not feeling so good right now. I'm trying to warn you of something. I'm trying to let you know what's going on, and you're telling your body to shut up and go away and get lost and just sort it out. And he was just like, just think about it differently. Like the idea that your body's actually trying to help you. If your body is tired because you haven't slept enough, guess what your body's saying. Take some rest. If your body is panicking because you've finally done some exercise or done something challenging, it's your body saying, we're not used to this. We need to get used to it. And so your body's actually on your side. And even pain is helping you recognize that there's something to shift, whether it's your diet, whether it's your, and you talk about this in the book, but whether it's your diet, whether it's your supplements, whether it's activity, whether it's meditation, stillness.

But we look at it as a negative signal rather than a sign of actual help.

I'm really, really relating to this coming from a childhood where there was a lot of, not only chronic pain, chronic illness. And so for me, any sort of physiological symptom near immediately, my mind goes to the possibility of or even likelihood of it being a catastrophic, even illness. And so for so long, I on moment, you know, the second I sensed a shift or a possible symptom or a sickness or something coming on, I would go into kind of that fear based, oh, my gosh, what is this? A sign of kind of mentality. And at the same time, for me, physical illness was a point of connection with my mom, because my mom, one of the, one of the moments in time, especially with my older sister, who suffered from a lot of chronic illness, my mom was able to be present when she needed to physically care for myself or my siblings. So now I have this complicated nature, and I would see kind of a remnant of this through my twenties when I'm 20 years old, right, I have a sinus infection. I, at this point, know exactly what to take. It's the same thing I've taken for probably the decade before for my sinus infection.

Yet I have memories of being in the drugstore in New York calling my mom and saying, oh, mom, I'm sick again. You know, what do I need? And she was like, oh, get claritin, which is the thing I always get. And for me, I'm understanding now that was a moment where I was looking for connection. So how complicated my relationship became with my body. Right, where there was a certain almost desire to be sick.

Yes.

Because now I can have the love and attention of my mom, right? And then there's a fear of being sick because that could mean something catastrophic. Then sometimes in my mind, when upset with someone else, I go down to exactly what I heard in my childhood growing up, where a statement my mom used to make is, you'll miss me when I'm gone. So sometimes my mind now will fantasize to hurt someone that has hurt me. Something that happens to me, typically probably guess by now where I'm sick. Oh, well, you'll be upset. Won't you be upset? If something were to really happen to me, how will that be for you? Right? And all of this world now manufactured, created from this early experience, complicating my relationship with my body and is still to this day. I have a lot of unlearning. That symptoms, like you, beautifully said, jai, are just signals, not signals of a terminal illness, just a signal. So, really, for me, not only learning how to connect with my body, how to unlearn some of these more kind of catastrophic beliefs, and how to learn how to connect with people outside of me, needing someone to physically care for me is all still kind of really a complicated mess.

Yeah. How do you start? Or what are the therapy based, healing based neurological actions and habits we can take to rewire that? Because you're so right. Like, some people get ill, and then they're. They're manifesting like, I'm gonna get cancer, right? Like, it's like a feeling of, like, oh, no, this is the worst. I was speaking to someone else the other day who said to me, they really believe that their success is one day just gonna crumble because they don't deserve it, and it's something they've always believed. And so how do you un manifest? Like, how do you almost rewire that thought process? Because that, again, is a repetitive thought, a belief.

Just going to start there. The way I simply define a belief, it's a repeated thought grounded in our lived experience. So, kind of breaking those two kind of sections. The way we navigate, then beliefs, right? Because we can't just affirm our way out of them. We can't just give ourself a new belief. It doesn't necessarily work, though. We can acknowledge that we have repeated certain narratives, certain beliefs in our mind. Right. Those neural networks have fired outside of our awareness time and time again and will continue to fire outside of our awareness time and time again the same every time a similar event happens that would elicit that sort of interpretation, meaning what we do in the moment, we don't anticipate that, oh, these beliefs aren't working for me. So I'm just going to shut the volume off, and they'll go away. Absolutely nothing. They will occur again the same time. A similar experience warrants them. What we can do is show up as the empowered presence, right? The conscious being, and we can choose how much attention we're giving, right? Are we going to hook our full attention on and keep repeating the belief once it is kind of offered in our mind?

Or are we going to say, oh, right, there's that old belief again in my mind. It isn't necessarily accurate or true, or I know it's not true, and now I can choose somewhere else to put my attention. That's the first half, the second half, the more powerful half. Why we can't just affirm our way. Our belief is because of what's happening in our body, right? Like we were talking about earlier, we've validated this experience. We feel this to be true. So the only way we're going to shift that embodied experience is if we begin to make new embodied choices, right? To show up in action, countering that belief even before I believe otherwise. So just to use an example, common belief, I think that is at the core of many of our relational habits, is how we're not worthy. So the next time, when you hear all the litany of reasons reminding you of why you're not worthy, we notice it, we pull our attention away. Doesn't mean that I'm going to feel worthy immediately. Does mean, though, that I can show up and begin to show up actions of worthiness. How might someone who is worthy treat themselves generally, or in this moment, and then consistently over time, make those choices even before you believe you're worthy and knowing somewhere down the line, if we weaken that belief network by pulling our attention away every time it fires, and if we're now strengthening a new belief network by inaction, embodying a new choice that will allow us to feel differently and maybe affirming a new thought, now we have the beginnings of a new network that will, over time, take over where that old network existed.

Yes, yes, yes. I remember kind of discovering this through the studies I did when I was a monk. And one of the practices that I developed, and this was to develop qualities that were recommended for people of spiritual culture to have and to reduce the effect of qualities that were not seen as aspirational. And so I remember writing down my top three to five most repeated thoughts around a particular thing. And I'd put a line down the middle of a piece of paper, and I would write down the script of what my mind currently says in that trigger, in that response, in that moment. And then for each point, I would write an alternative script. And the key was the alternative script was not about being positive or not about being the opposite. I think that's what I've often seen. So, for example, if we took the basic premise of I'm not enough or I'm not worthy, as you just said, and on the other side, if you just run, I'm the best thing in the world, like, that doesn't work. It needs to be more comprehensive and thoughtful than that. It needs to be more valuable than that.

It may be I am worthy as I am. I have always been worthy. There's not a moment of becoming worthy. And what I found is the more that I researched those, the more that I read books like this and created paragraphs to support it. And the more I rehearsed it, like an actor, like a script. You started realizing your script just changed. And all that you ever did was memorize an old script and learn a new one and trade it. That's all it was anyway. It was never that. One was true and one was false. It was just that you had a script that you learned from your caregiver since the beginning and from the people that loved you first, and all of a sudden you have a new script now. And it's so interesting to me that we so deeply define ourselves by thinking we are our thoughts and how much our thoughts are seen as non different from ourselves. But actually they're. They're scripts. They're just scripts. And which script you've read the most and practiced the most and rehearsed the most is your reality.

Yeah. And I think what we are missing is the foundational role that our and other people's body sensations played at the creation and repetition, right. Of those scripts. And I've been talking a lot about a good old Descartes. I think, therefore I am, and a lot of us do have and embody that belief that all of the power, right, is in the mind, and the mind carries this reality. And that's just so simply not true. All of the power actually lives in our body and in our instinctual body. And what participated in creating those scripts, again, was what was happening in our body and all of the other bodies that were navigating those moments around us. And then that continues to be the case. We pay most attention to what's going on in our mind, not becoming aware that even in the current moment, what was happening in our mind was usually activated by the shifts in our body, by the fact that our nervous system, outside of our awareness, is always assessing and looking for possible threat based on what was once threatening to us. Right? So all of these physiological shifts that you and I keep focusing on and talking about are initiating for a lot of us the thoughts that we then become present to in our minds.

So until we understand again the foundational role that the body continues even to play in shaping our thoughts, ultimately in shaping our beliefs, and then creating the opportunity to change both of those categories of thinking and believing, we're not going to be able to create the shifts, ultimately, that we want. And when we do, that's when I think we can create incredible transformation for.

All the parents out there. Picture that it's bedtime. You and the kids have been busy all day. You know, they're tired, but with all that anxious energy, they just won't go to sleep. This was my kids every night. But I did find that stories calmed their mind and gave them something to focus on. So six years ago, I created the Kids podcast Bedtime history to help solve that problem. Bedtime History is a series of relaxing history stories that end with an inspirational message. We have episodes about Jackie Robinson, Neil Armstrong, Maya Angelou, and Sacagawea. Episodes also include topics like space exploration, engineering, the rise and fall of civilizations, and major events like the civil rights movement and the transcontinental railroad. With over 2000 positive parent reviews, Bedtime History is one of the top education podcasts this week. Join me and listen to bedtime history every Monday and Thursday on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to across generations, where the voices of black women unite in powerful conversations. I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross. I want you all to join me and be a part of sisterhood, friendship, wisdom, and laughter. In every episode, we gather a seasoned elder.

But even with a child, there's no such things as the wrong thing if you love them.

Myself, as the middle generation, I don't feel like I have to get married at this big age in life. But it is a desire I have and something that I've navigated in dating and a vibrant young soul for engaging, intergenerational conversations. I'm very jealous of your generation that.

Didn'T have to deal with Instagram and Tinder.

This is a cross generation where black women's voices unite. And together, you know how we do? We create magic. Listen to a cross generations podcast from the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Ilya Koni, and this is family therapy.

In my best hopes, I guess, identify.

The life that I want and work towards it.

I never seen a man take care of my mother the way she needed.

To be taken care of. I get the impression that you don't feel like you've done everything right as a father. Is that true?

That's true, and I'm not offended by that.

Thank you for going through those things.

And thank you for overcoming them. Wow. Thank God for the limits. Every time I have one of our sessions, our sessions, be positive. It just keeps me going.

I feel like my focus is redirected in a different aspect of my life now.

So how'd we do today?

We did good.

The black effect presents family therapy. Listen now on the Black effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

One of the things I love doing on the show is really clearly defining terms that I think are starting to become very mainstream or viral on TikTok, or, you know, these terms that I think often also get thrown around. And so I wanted you to please define for us what is a trauma bond? Because I feel like that's a term that is gaining popularity and gaining traction, but often we're not really sure of what it means. What is a trauma bond?

I think a trauma bond is a relationship in which dysfunctional habits exist. And I'm giving a very intentionally giving a very expanded definition because I know clinically in the field for a very long time, trauma bond. I forget who it is that coined the term years ago. Now, Carnes, I'm forgetting his exact name, but around a relationship in which there was abuse, usually active physical or sexual abuse, and a kind of felt connection or commitment within that relationship. And I actually think this kind of mirrors my own expansion of definitions such as trauma included to, I think, categorize the many other versions of trauma bond, patterning of breaking cycles, as I share in the subtitle that exists within relationships. So, again, really simply, it's the relational pattern that a lot of us learned that was adaptive in early childhood and those earliest relationships that we then rely on, because it's predictable, it includes our identity, it includes the predictable identities of all of those that we're relating to, and we rely on that kind of dynamic, the felt security in that dynamic. Let me say it that way, as our home base. So a trauma bond, I think, applies to a lot of us.

I think there's a lot of dysfunctional habits that many of us are carrying in, particularly around emotions and how we relate to and navigate emotions in relationships that many of us are still experiencing. And to answer a question that maybe listeners are having, because sometimes I do then get asked, well, can you change a trauma bond? Is a trauma bond doomed? And you know, I will be the first to say that when I began my relationship with Lally, it was absolutely had a lot of trauma bond patterning. It's what attracted us to each other on some level and through dedicated action on both of our parts. I absolutely believe and have seen obviously many other instances wherever trauma bond, just like attachment patterns. I think this is another very common language, in my opinion, at least they are not be all end all categories that are for a lifetime or a terminal sentence, if you will. So trauma bond, again, dysfunctional habits that exist in our relationships, typically habits that were once adaptive or protective at one time, that get repeated that can absolutely be changed.

That's so interesting, though, what you said, that they were once protective. And what's really interesting that you said was that now they become in the relationship. Oh, that you're even attracted to each other because of those. Like, it can even be the foundation of why you get together with someone, which is even harder to lose because that was what brought together. So you almost feel like there's so much value to it. So how do you break that cycle then, when it's almost like I'm attracted to you because of this trauma bond and we're starting to have that dependence on each other, how does one then break that apart when it feels like that's the reason you came together?

This is kind of, I think, going down another rabbit hole in a sense of attraction, because I think attraction's another word, you know, like we were talking about earlier in terms of familiarity and habitual. Right? A lot of times that which we think we're attracted to is really that which is familiar to us. Like, it's kind of like attraction based on the familiarity principle, if you will. So I think when we're considering that aspect, what yes does feel familiar and therefore attracts, quote unquote, us to many of the partners that we choose are the habits that we are used to, right. Not necessarily what we want to consciously choose to create. So when we again become aware of what we're carrying in what those early dynamics are, then I think we could get a bit clearer in terms of whether or not we're attracted to familiarity or whether or not this is someone that we want to pursue a future with. And regardless, again, because like I said, we can become attracted to familiar and then create a future that's not familiar at all for the two of us, walking in a direction that we are intentionally choosing what empowers that shift is intentionality, in my opinion, conscious awareness, each separately or together as partners, showing up and saying, I'm understanding these dynamics about myself.

These are the changes that I want to make. This is how I see us going together in the future. So I think when we have the awareness and then have the communication, we can create the opportunity to not only get clearer in terms of even if we were attracted to something that was familiar, doesn't mean that it's not workable for us to keep both of our best interests in mind and create a future that works for both of us.

What is real, another term or another practice that I think has also gained, again, mass attention more recently is inner child work. And I feel like it's really interesting because we are starting to gain this language around how we have an inner child at all times. And a lot of our inner child's needs are unmet. You talk about authentic needs in the book. And now we spend our adult life in some way trying to fulfill those unmet inner child needs. But often in our adult life, it can take us in so many different directions and keep us lost. What are some of the mistakes we make in trying to meet an inner child's needs? And what are some of the healthier ways we could choose to meet our inner child's needs? And even if they're needed.

Yeah. Understanding, I think even just this concept of inner child, and this is another one of them that we could, upon hearing it. Inner child. I'm an adult. This doesn't apply to me. And I think what kind of an inner child, how we can define that is the subconscious space of our mind, as I've been describing throughout that houses a lot of this patterned way of being that was created at that time. That was the adaptation in terms of how we had to shift and change and what needs were getting met or not getting met and what emotions that we had to. Or aspects of our self expression, like I described earlier, that weren't appropriate or that we were shamed. Right. For having. So that ultimately, all of this now is beneath the surface. It's still for a lot of us, though, driving a lot of our reactivity. Even those moments that I've been sharing with the dishes, right. I'm becoming emotional. That was a moment where my inner child was very alive. Right. I was feeling the feelings back in time of that unmet need, of not having that attunement. So when we. I think the first shift is understanding that that exists inside of us, that we are kind of compelled and wired.

And we do have needs. And beginning then to explore how, how we are showing up in service of our needs. Is there space in our general day? Is there space in our relational day to make sure that I'm caring for my physical self? Is there room and space for my emotions? Am I giving and receiving support that relationships allow for? And do I feel safe to be who I am? Right. And chances are, if you're not kind of overwhelmingly saying, yeah, I'm feeling pretty calm, grounded, I can take care of my needs, I can share my emotions, we can negotiate for future, I'm able to be myself, then a lot of what probably is happening are the habits of our inner child. So becoming then clear how it is and creating space to break those patterns first, kind of shifting out of those habitual ways of being and creating an opportunity to show up newly. And for a lot of us, that means even bringing it full circle, learning a new relationship with our body, really simplifying it, looking into our sleep habits, looking into our nutritional habits, looking at how we navigate stress and the impact that it has on us, and then creating new habits that can better care for our nervous system so that ultimately we can be more attuned to our emotions and more able to share those with somebody else.

Yeah. One of the things you talk about in the book, which I really resonated with was the seven conditioned selves. Caretaker, overachiever, underachiever, rescuer, protector, life of the party. Yes. Person and hero worshiper. And I was thinking about this a lot because I found that a lot of people, naturally, the way we see it, they're still playing that role, that role that allowed them to feel safe, protected, in control when they were younger. They're still demonstrating that role. And often that role today can actually lead them to becoming extremely successful, extremely accomplished, extremely adored, famous, rich, what everything else, like it can do so much, but then they almost get exhausted at playing that role. Or you recognize it's a role and it was a role that you took on and, but it was never you. It wasn't the you you wanted to be. It was the you you had to be. How do you reconcile that? How does someone reconcile whether they're externally, quote, unquote, successful or not, just they've recognized now they're like, I've been playing this role. Maybe I was the peacekeeper, maybe I was the comedian, maybe I was the mediator since I was young, but actually, I don't like that role.

I don't want to be that role. But now not only has that role been protective of me for so long, how do I give it up? Who would I be without it? And can I construct another self?

Yeah, I mean, you're beautifully giving language to not only the questions, though, to the process of, I think, reconciliation. So once we become aware that there is a role we're playing, which for a lot of us, is very shame relieving, because I know for me very much identifying with the overachiever, very much being validated by society that celebrated many of my achievements. I carried a ton of shame as I started to feel really disconnected and unfulfilled with this life that was supposedly created to make me feel validated and happy and fulfilled. And so when I didn't immediately feel that way, I started to worry and wonder what was wrong with me. Right. So without the language to have kind of zoomed back and say, oh, well, it's understandable. You don't feel disconnected to your life, Nicole, because you're not authentically living it, right? You achieved all of these things in service of seeking your mom's attention, seeking your mom's love, seeking the sense of worthiness in action. And in reality, it doesn't represent who you authentically are because in many moments, you're not even sharing who you authentically are with anyone. So that awareness piece, I think, for a lot of us, can be hugely shame relieving, though.

It doesn't shift us into maybe the embodied self or the self expression or authentic expression that we want and need to create. Right. We have to break the habit of being this person, of playing this role, of wearing this mask, and create a new habit of showing up in our authenticity, which for a lot of us, is very destabilizing. We've wrapped these identities. Some of us even prided ourselves. Some of us, like myself, created a whole life around this identity that now we're questioning. Right. We could feel shameful because we're older now. We should know who we are and what we want. So that could feel, you know, overwhelming. We might need to shed. Right. Some of the actual identity in service, like how we are showing up now. We are making, like, strategically new choices. So we're shedding identity. For a lot of us, it means mourning and grieving the circumstances that create it. The need for me to play that role, right. The unmet needs, the aspects of myself that I was taught was too unworthy to be expressed. So for a lot of us, it's getting curious, it's questioning, it's creating the space to grieve and be with our pain and the resilience to begin to make new choices.

Because again, all of that is still governed by our body. Because now we're going to show up against the expectation of a lot of people. We're going to be challenging a lot of people, other people's perception of us. We're going to be challenging the dynamic like we talked about earlier, that was repeated and validated over time. And now we're showing up, not playing this role that we've already played. And so the stress that we're going to create in all of the systems outside of us is going to create the scenario where we feel now overwhelmed. And before we know it, we're right back in those old habits so powerful, everyone.

The book is called how to be the lover you seek, break cycles, find peace and heal your relationships. Doctor Nicole Lapera, the holistic psychologist on Instagram, if you don't follow already. Doctor Nicole. Nicole, thank you so much for giving us a masterclass on this and like I said, dived into 1% of what's inside the book. There is so much more inside this book. I highly recommend it and I was very grateful that you included my testimonial on the back, which I very deeply in heart, felt very deeply in my heart to share with you. But I'm so grateful for everything you've shared today, all the insights. Thank you for going there with me on so many different pathways. I wanted to make sure. Nicole, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you'd love to share or anything that's on your heart right now that you feel compelled to share with the community?

Well, I appreciate you asking. I appreciate, as always, Jay, your support. I did appreciate the opportunity to kind of go into a lot of aspects of my own journey in this conversation, so I'm hoping it was of service, of course, to everyone out there listening, and I thank you all for tuning in.

Absolutely. Thank you, doctor. Nicole, if you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Doctor Gabor mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds, to start moving on from the past. Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.

The black effect presents family therapy. And I'm your host, Elliot. Connie. Jay is the woman in this dynamic who is currently co parenting two young boys with her former partner, David.

David, he is a leader.

He just don't want to lead me.

But how do you lead a woman?

How do you lead in a relationship?

Like, what's the blue part?

David, you just asked the most important question. Listen to family therapy on the Black Effect podcast network, I heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Hey, it's me, Blippi, and this is my best friend, Mika. Hi, I'm Mika and this is our.

Brand new podcast, Blippi and Mika's Road Trip.

The Blippi mobile will take us to amazing places and we'll meet new friends along the way. Listen to Blippi and Mika's road trip podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine you asked two people the same seven questions. I'm Minnie Driver and this was the idea I set out to explore in my podcast, mini questions. This year, we bring a whole new group of guests to answer the same seven questions including Courtney Cox, Rob Delaney, Liz Phair, and many, many more. Join me on season three of mini questions on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers.