Transcript of Earl Spencer on Why the World Won’t Forget Princess Diana

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Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is Next Question. It will be 30 years this summer that Princess Diana died in a car crash in Paris, and yet her story still captivates so many of us. Most of what we know about her life has come from biographers, tabloids, palace insiders, and on a few extraordinary occasions, Diana herself. Now her younger brother is sharing her story through his eyes. Charles Spencer, the 9th Earl Spencer, is the little brother who grew up with Diana. He's also the man who stood in Westminster Abbey and delivered a eulogy that stunned the world, a tribute to his sister and a thinly veiled rebuke of the press and the royal family. His new book, Swan Song: Diana, My Sister, is deeply personal. He writes about the childhood they shared, the doubts Diana had before her wedding, and the days following her death. Like so much about Diana, this posthumous look at her life has become the subject of fierce debate, even prompting a rare response from Buckingham Palace. Charles says he believes this is a book Diana would have wanted him to write. I began by asking him if the criticism he's received so far has been difficult.

Charles, I'm so happy to see you again.

Well, I'm delighted. Thank you for having me.

This book is getting a lot of attention.

Yes.

Not surprisingly, a lot of positive attention, but a lot of negative attention too.

Yes.

And it's something that is deeply personal for you. When you get the kind of criticism you've been receiving, especially in the UK, how are you handling it?

Well, I sort of knew what was coming because 29 years ago when I delivered the eulogy, I got So I realized, you know, when you stand up for Diana and speak in a clear voice, which I hope I have done, you're gonna attract the British establishment's criticism. They couldn't cope with her. They don't need her name being brought forward like this. But you know what, Katie, wherever I go, the real people, if I can put it that way, they connected with Diana. They connect with the truth about her and a lot of positive feedback about the book. So I'm not worried.

I'm glad to hear that.

This is more than a book project for me. I've written lots of books. This is a passion project and something that I really needed to just lay down once and for all. And I was ready for some thumps in the chest. And it doesn't matter.

The Guardian wrote, as you know, Charles, a particularly snarky review. I'm not sure if you read it or you say, I'm not going to believe my bad press or my good press. But they They suggested you might have written this purely for financial reasons. They said, elsewhere in the book, he, you, writes about how back in the day his father was always at risk of running out of cash to run Althorp, the family's Northamptonshire estate, and one wonders if the present Earl is having similar difficulties.

Well, it's a matter of public record that we just did a development for 9 figures. So we're not short. It's nothing to do with cash at all. And my father was never running out of money. So they've extrapolated that from absolute fabrication. So it's disappointing. But I think this happened last time. After Diana died, I set up an exhibition to her life and all the profits from that, it was audited publicly, all went to charity. And even then I was criticized.

So it's trying to find an angle even when it doesn't Will any of the proceeds from the sale of this book go to support Diana's charities?

To charities, yes. Yes. But I, I didn't want a halo around the book. I didn't want to say, if you buy this, a certain percentage goes to whatever. This is a straightforward book. And I have charities that matter very much to me. And if I choose to give money to those, then that's a good thing. I've never profited from Diana, and I'm not looking to now.

Let's talk about why now. Um, obviously, it's been nearly 30 years since Diana's death. There are multiple reasons I know, Charles, you decided now would be the best time to tell this story. Can you explain them?

Sure. Well, the first one was, um, next summer will be the 30th anniversary of Diana's death. And you know how the media works better than anyone. I've been getting endless requests to be in documentaries marking that sad anniversary. And I just thought, I don't want to do that. If I have ever contributed to anything, it's been really disappointing to see the results. You get your little snippet cut into a piece to make someone else's point. I don't want to do that. Secondly, both my parents died in their 60s and I'm 62. I'm not expecting to die, but I'm at an age where that is, you know, the finishing line's within sight. And my brain's pretty good at the moment, and my memories are fresh, and I just wanted to do it now.

You say the aim was to tell the truth about Diana from your perspective. So, after nearly 30 years, Charles, what do you feel was left unsaid or unwritten about your sister that you really wanted to share with the public?

Well, I think the book is a celebration of Diana. It will connect, I think, with those who remember her, our generation. And I hope that's really a link that everyone can find. But I wanted to really look at where Diana came from. I don't mean from some snooty English family. I mean as a person. And so I wanted to— really examine and bring to life the difficult years she had. For instance, at school, she struggled because of, as I see it, undiagnosed learning difficulties. And then at the same time, she had all these problems with self-esteem that came from that. And I think people find this extraordinarily difficult to understand without that context because Most people's association with Diana is as a glamorous global princess. So it's hard for them to think of someone like that having doubt. But in my clear view, the problems Diana had with self-esteem came from her struggles in the classroom. I also wanted to show how she got through incredibly challenging times. And in particular, the sheer courage that she showed. She was always this fiercely fighting, independent character. And that was her strength. And also, I think, if I go back to the British establishment, a bit of a challenge for them.

They were not expecting this when she walked down the aisle in 1981 to become Princess of Wales. They thought they had someone meek and biddable, and she really wasn't.

In fact, I think it's delightful to read how scrappy and feisty she was as a young girl. We'll get to how that scrappiness and feistiness showed up in a moment. But first, I'd love you to talk a little bit about how close you were. You describe her as your constant companion. She was 3 years older than you, the youngest of the 3 girls. You're the baby.

Yes.

And the only boy.

Yes.

Oh, brother.

Well, I think the structure of the family is very important here. because my parents had 2 daughters, my sisters Sarah and Jane, who are quite a lot older than me and Diana. And then there was a brother who died on the day of his birth. So that's not my tragedy. I never knew him, but he died in the middle of the 5 children. So it meant that because of the spacing of the births, that the 2 elder ones grew up together and the 2 younger ones grew up together. So—

That's sort of similar to my family because I have 2 older sisters who were 2 or 3 years apart. But my eldest sister was 10 years older than I was. So by the time she went to college, I was just 8 years old. So my brother and I, it's sort of very similar, spent a lot of time in our formative years. And my 2 sisters spent a lot of time in their formative years. So it sounds very similar.

Yeah, I think it is very similar. And I also think, throw in on the English side here, my siblings going to boarding school. And then I'm afraid I don't know, but divorced parents. So The amount of time I saw my 2 older sisters was really limited growing up. They were wonderful presences, very exciting when they came home, but it was always Diana and Charles at home. What are Diana and Charles gonna do? And a very sort of old-fashioned structure to our household. You know, my father had household staff, you know, and we had nannies and all of that sort of thing. So But it was always us two and being shuttled between the two marital homes and all of that. So yeah, I mean, I worked out my first 7 years, we spent every night under the same roof. And then she went to boarding school, but every holidays, every school vacation, we were together.

You all had cute nicknames for each other too. What were they?

Well, Diana was known as the Duchess. I think I was trying to remember that. I think it goes back to my stepfather who invented that because she had always had this sort of, elegant, ladylike air. And then she called me Carlos. No one else did. And I don't know where that came from. I wish I could remember. But so I called her Dutch and she called me Carlos.

Someone asks on— a social media follower of mine, what's your favorite childhood memory of Diana?

Yeah. Do you know, it's of the happy years of our childhood, which I would say until about 1975. So Diana was born in '61. When we were based in this wonderful family home of Park House on the east coast of England, on the royal estate of Sandringham, it was really fabulous. And yeah, my parents weren't together, but we had a very, very happy family home there. Lots of friends, beautiful part of the countryside to grow up in. It was, I mean, I know we tend to look back on happy childhoods with rose-tinted spectacles, but there was something really magical about that. So it wasn't a particular occasion. It was just a place of love and laughter.

Was there one memory? I mean, did you play a game a lot? I think many of us think back on our childhood. I think of playing, like, red light, green light on our front walk. I grew up very differently than you did, Charles, by the way. But are there sort of snapshots of your childhood that come to the forefront of your mind when you think about her?

Yeah, actually, we spent a lot of time in the summer vacation on the west coast of Scotland with my mother. And we spent a lot of time on the water. So just the joy of going out on a boat with my mother, having her to ourselves. She was a very fun woman. I actually— the one regret I have in the book is I don't think I bring her alive enough because she wasn't the principal carer. But my goodness, she was fun. And I think she was half American. Her father was an East Coast American. And I think Diana's easy connection with American culture came from my mother. My mother was not impressed by the British class system and she saw it for what it was. And I think we had so much laughter on this boat and hauling in lobster pots, trying to catch mackerel, whatever. We were both quite active kids. I think we were quite a handful probably. Certainly I was trying to, when I was looking at writing this book, I went to see an old nanny who's now in her 80s. And she said, yes, you two were quite a lot to deal with.

But not in a bad way, I hasten to add. We were just naughty kids, you know.

Well, energetic and rambunctious, I imagine.

That's it.

That's it.

Both of those.

Um, well, you describe a childhood that's quite different, Charles, as you know, than the impression people had of Diana's experience with her childhood. She painted a picture of a less than happy upbringing, given the fact that your mom, left your family when she was just 6 years old. So how do you reconcile what we've been hearing about Diana's childhood for so long and your decidedly happier recollections?

Yes. Well, first I'd say clearly I didn't have Diana's childhood. I was living alongside her childhood. What I would say is I've talked to people who were there to see, was I crazy? Have I got it wrong? And they all said, no, you all looked happy. Now, I think maybe Diana might've had a more melancholy side to her than I ever had. And I do know, and I do mention it actually in the book, so it's a very profound point. Diana did talk about the moment of my mother leaving home as the great sadness. And that evokes so much, you know. Diana was those 3 years older than me. I don't remember my parents together at all. You know, I was 2 or 3 when they split.

Right. She was only 6. In fact, this is what you write, and it's really heartbreaking. Diana had as a central memory of that time a day when my mother and her maid, known by us as Collie, were going around Park House collecting my mother's things. Diana shadowed them inquisitively, and my mother, surely without any wish to upset her youngest daughter, told her not to worry. She would, she said, return home soon. What was meant as a distraction and a comfort instead turned into a very serious, Diana took my mother at her word and would often sit on Park House's front doorstep by herself, awaiting my mother's promised reappearance. It never happened. I believe Diana never forgave my mother for what she took to be a devastating letdown.

That is really sad, isn't it? And I— you see, I didn't experience that. So Diana did.

You were too little.

That's right. And I totally accept that Diana that side of Diana. I suppose what I wanted to counter was the idea that it was all bleak and unhappy for Diana. Because she had lots of friends, she had lots of laughter.

And she did spend time with her mother.

Yes. We spent half of each vacation with my mother. Half of every term break. And then—

But your father had full custody, correct?

He did. He had what would be full custody now. My mother probably made a major parental error in terms of the law. She was madly in love with my stepfather and she went for 6 months to Australia with him right at the beginning. I think the judge took a view on that when the custody case came up, that my father had in the meantime established a very stable environment for us. And family friends, members of staff were called into the witness box and they they said that. So yeah, it was tough. Even my mother's mother sided with my father. You know, it's all pretty fraught stuff.

And then your stepmother— your father remarried. And it sounds a little bit like Cinderella, honestly. Like the wicked stepmother. That was not a good situation for either you or Diana, was it?

No, it really wasn't. My stepmother came from a difficult background of her own. So her mother was Barbara Cartland, a sort of rather extraordinary romantic novelist who was larger than life. And I would've thought was a difficult mother in her own right. So Raine, my stepmother, came from a difficult place. I totally understand that now. But what we were presented with was a really very unfriendly stepmother, to say the least. My family's home, Althorp, which is a a stately home in England with a lot of room. My 3 sisters and I were put in the smallest bedrooms in the attic each, while her children were given the best bedrooms. And it was, you know, ridiculous when you look back on it. My father was an absolutely lovely man, but he wasn't a strong character. And Raine was a very strong character and she soon took over. And yeah, it was tough because it was so formal too, Katie. You know, at my mother's house, when we were there, it was relatively normal. You know, there was certainly no staff around. It was just a real life. And we would help lay the table and clear the dishes, all that sort of thing.

But when we were at Althorp with Raine, every night she got into a ball dress, different ball dress. And there was 4 or 5 staff serving 3 or 4 people. And she would talk about them as if they didn't exist, the members of staff. It was mortifying. talking about their very personal lives and really viciously rude to them and a really grim stepmother. And yeah, it was tough. And we used to dread it. And, you know, we'd grown up 100 miles to the east in this really happy environment, and then were transported to what was basically a museum of a house run by a terrible stepmother, really, I have to say, you know. I'm a stepparent and I know how difficult it is, but she took it to a strange level of unpleasantness.

Your father never said, knock it off.

No. So my father had a stroke. So he married her in 1976. He had a massive stroke in '78. And although he sort of recovered, he never fully recovered. And he abdicated all power to reign at that point, which was a shame because You know, Diana and I were stuck there for half the vacation, and we only really saw my father at lunchtime and in the evening. And the rest of the time, well, we spent most of it out of doors just to be out of the way, really.

Did you ever make mischief like in The Parent Trap? Did you ever do things to your stepmother?

Well, not really, no. I mean, we just didn't— we just didn't like her, you know? And she didn't— To be honest, I think she found parenthood a bit of a challenge. So step-parenthood was gonna be a huge leap. And I get it. She just— some people are not made for it, and she wasn't.

I wanna get back to this sort of mischievous, feisty, scrappy side of Diana, because I think our first introduction to her was as the bashful kindergarten teacher who couldn't even look straight at the camera. You know, she was so... uncomfortable or seemed so shy. But she was a tough kid.

Yes, she was.

Tell us a story about the eel and the pen.

Yeah, that was extraordinary. So we were on the boat with my mother one day. And when you hauled up the lobster pots, very rarely they had a lobster and that was a bonus. But usually it was crabs and dogfish, you know, it's little snappy looking shark type things. And that you would deposit back into the water. But one day to our total surprise, this is a one-off event, there was a massive Turned out to be a conger eel, and it was thick and toothy and thrashing around. And my mother and I both backed away.

This was in the lobster cage?

Yeah, it got out though, because we undid it without— we didn't know what it was. We thought it was kelp or something, but it really was a very alive giant eel. Well, not giant, but really big, like 4 feet, 5 feet long.

That, that qualifies for giant in my book.

And we're in a small boat. And I backed away like a normal person would. My mother backed away. And then Diana saw this danger, and she reached into this grimy white plastic bucket and pulled out the knife we used for chopping up bait and just went whack, straight between its eyes up here and killed it. It was— it was so brave. And it sounds brutal, but this was a horrible thing that was threatening us. And I just thought, wow, you don't want to get on the wrong side of Diana, really.

Were there other times that she showed similar gumption?

Yeah. She always took a view on people. And if she didn't like them, then that was quite evident. We went through a long period of being very suspicious of my mother's mother, who I think was actually a very decent human being who cared deeply about her family. But she had sided against our mother in the funeral. And my mother and her fell out and didn't speak for years. And we could be very sort of obvious in our dislike without sort of saying much. So I think we were always brought up in this very polite society and wouldn't have been actively rude to adults, but we could be forcefully clear in our feelings. But that took some strength 'cause we were brought up to be very obedient. Dumb insolence maybe is the right expression. I think we were always brought up to believe, both of us, that you have to look for the good in people. And if it's not there, you've got to resist, really.

I was surprised to read about your father's relationship with Queen Elizabeth. WTF, Charles?

What?

Is this well known in Britain?

It's not well known, but it's been reported. So my father was a young army officer. And the first I came across it was when his chaplain, his military clergyman talked about it. And it all fitted. It all fitted. And these letters that I read—

Well, explain because I—

Okay. So yes. So my father in his youth was extremely handsome actually. And he worked for the Queen's father, George VI, in his household. It's a job called an equerry. Basically, it's a you're in charge of logistics for the monarch. And at some point they had probably just a flirtation, I think. But my father was very, obviously very keen. And he was then taken aside by Lord Mountbatten, who was Prince Philip's uncle and a senior figure in World War II. And he told my father, what are you thinking? You know, she's the Queen of England, or she will be. And she's not gonna be interested in someone like you. And my father was always very hierarchical and backed away, but he had a bit of a breakdown and used to have to go for counseling to the chaplain of his regiment, who then went public about it some years later. And also, I think it was at the time of the royal wedding in '81, he went public about it. And he said how disappointed he was that my father was now this sort of broken man and and looked terrible. So he was quite an outspoken chaplain.

But he brought up that whole subject. And it made sense with a letter I found from my great-aunt, my father's paternal aunt, talking about her pride at having kept the secret and well done him. So yeah, it wasn't something we ever chatted about. But the evidence was there from the priest.

But how long was the relationship? Do you know any details about it?

I don't know any details. All I know is my father was heartbroken when it ended. I have no idea. Maybe the couple Queen never knew that he had this huge crush, but he, he was very invested in it emotionally. But he was in his early 20s.

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Getting back to Diana, you referred to her learning disabilities, and you write in the book you believe she had undiagnosed ADHD and something called rejection-sensitive dysphoria.

Mm-hmm.

Which you also say you've experienced yourself. Tell me how you came to that conclusion.

Well, with the learning difficulties, it's quite clear that she had, again, undiagnosed, but dyslexia. I include in the book actually a list she writes, a wishlist for her birthday feast when she's a young girl. And for instance, cheese and onion chips she wants, and she spells onion I-O-N-A. And it's all sorts of very funky spelling. which is sort of similar to what you would expect. But the ADHD was interesting to me 'cause I only got diagnosed a few years ago. And I thought, aha, this is what it is. I have all of Diana's term reports from when she was at kindergarten till when she left school. She left school as soon as she could legally do so, just after her 16th birthday. They're consistent. They all look like ADHD. And I stress again, this is not— It's impossible to prove. posthumously diagnosed, but the inability to settle, the inability to concentrate, the interruption of other people speaking. There's many of the classic ADHD symptoms there. And then I remember reading, you know, there is a very interesting book by Sally Bedell Smith.

Oh, right.

Yeah, the biographer. She wrote one a year or two after Diana died. And then I remember reading with Sally that she thought Diana, because she fell out with people, that she had— I can never remember if it's bipolar or borderline. Borderline personality, I think. There's no evidence of that. But I do think one of the factors, the ADHD that certainly I have, is that perceived criticism, you really feel stung much more than, if I can put it, less neurodivergent people. So Diana would really, really feel hurt when she was criticized, which of course, given the public role she had, made life incredibly complex.

I was gonna say, what a nightmare for her if, you know, she felt everything so deeply and it cut so— cut so much.

And it was interesting. That was where I perceived I could have a useful role, actually. Because although Diana fell out with friends and then would be sometimes turn her back on them, you know, well, you can turn your back on your family, but they tend to still be there when you turn around again. And I took it upon myself, I mean, I hope this doesn't sound too priggish, but there was a very key moment in my relationship with Diana post her becoming a princess where some older family friends, they were friends of our older sisters, said it'd be lovely to host a private evening for Diana in a private room in a restaurant in London. And we went and I thought, this is gonna be so good for her. She can get away from all that palace, malarkey and have a fun time. And then I noticed that these really decent people were treating her differently. And I realized it wasn't their fault, but they were reading about Diana being a sort of goddess every day in the papers. And they had changed and they were laughing too long at her jokes and all of that.

And it really upset me. And I walked back that night, the 2 miles to my, where I was living. And I thought, well, what am I meant to do with this? And then I sort of took a vow to myself that night that I would never change. You know, for better or worse, I should just remain Carlos, the brother. And obviously that, you know, Diana and I are both very stubborn and that did lead to friction. And she, I mean, you know, she sadly fell out with all members of her family at different times. But I don't, writing the book made me realize even more than before that it was amazing she coped as well as she did, given the huge amount of pressure on her, unprecedented pressure. And you'll remember, Katie, in an era of much greater misogyny towards successful women, if I can— it's true, isn't it?

Yes.

So different attitudes, terrible pressures, and then towards the end of her life, no protection because she didn't trust anyone. She'd been led to believe that everyone was spying on her and eavesdropping on her. I strongly believe, again, I can't prove this, I strongly believe she was an early victim of phone hacking. And this was devastating to her personal relationships. Say she confided in a friend one thing, and that one thing ends up on the front page a week later. It's only logical to think that friend has let you down. But it wasn't necessarily the case at all. It's somebody having their voice hacked, their voicemail hacked.

And you think that actually happened early on? And do you have any evidence to prove that? I don't.

I don't. But I know Diana was extremely logical. And when she said, so-and-so said this, and she shouldn't have, she really believed it.

Well, combined with this hypersensitivity to criticism, and this fear of being exposed to the public and being unable to trust anyone, I'm sure it messed her up, right?

It must have. I do think it's hard to, you know, so Diana's been dead for nearly 30 years, and her career before that was 16 years. You're going back nearly half a century to when she entered public life. Things have changed so dramatically since then. But if you're somebody who's laboring with the difficulties, the personal makeup of your soul, plus the unprecedented power of the— a malicious UK press, it's a lot.

Fame, in and of itself is so hard to handle. And I always think you have to have a very strong constitution, and that constitution is molded when you're young and feeling unconditional love and stability. And I can only imagine her— your mom leaving, even if she was an active participant in your upbringing. This Yes. This feeling of inadequacy because of her learning issues, and this hypersensitivity to criticism. I mean, that set her up for a terrible situation once she became squarely in the public eye.

I totally agree. I mean, that is it. You just unpacked the kit. And there it all— if you put that all together, you know, I came out of this process feeling of studying Diana's life for this, you know, as a writer, as opposed to living alongside as a brother, with an incredibly rich appreciation of her heroism, actually. It is that level, I think. And then the damage, you know, I— so Julian Fellowes, who wrote Downton Abbey, is a friend of mine. And he told me years ago, he said, I think part of the connection the public has with Diana is that she had this sort of shard of glass in her makeup. There was something not perfect.

Something kind of wounded.

That's it. And rather like some of the great movie, golden era Hollywood movie actresses had a sort of— you knew there was something unhappy there. It makes for a greater connection and a greater fascination.

And a desire, in a weird way, to protect her, don't you think? I think so. Even though there were simultaneously vultures attacking her, I think the public wanted to put their collective arms around her and shield her from that in some way.

Yeah, that's so right. And I think if we go even beyond that, if I look at the audience of Diana, I touched on this early on, there's our generation down to 45. And yet, there's a connection with so many people who are younger. I mean, When I was— so I read the audiobook to this lovely technician in the engineering box, said he was 28 and gay. And he said, I didn't know any of this. And I said, yeah, well, what did you know? And he said, well, I just knew her as a fabulous gay icon. So everyone's coming at her with a different angle, but there's a connection each time. It's so astonishing that she connected with people because of their vulnerability. And the glamor.

Plus, there are very few people who become global figures in the way she did, and such an object of fascination. And it must have been so weird. I think about you, Charles, and I think about her. Suddenly, she's marrying Prince Charles, and she goes from a life of relative obscurity, right? I mean, I'm sure you guys had fancy friends and all that stuff.

But not— not interesting friends.

To suddenly, I mean, she is on newspapers and magazines and tabloids and television sets worldwide.

Yeah, I know. It's extraordinary. And as a younger brother, younger brothers are not used to looking up to their older sisters as anything more than family members, you know. But very early on, I managed to separate the two. And I realized The Diana, or the Dutch as I knew her, who I grew up with, was only tangentially related to Lady Di, Princess Di, whatever. So the media made their own creation out of her. And of course, there were truths in that. You know, she did become a beautiful person with good fashion taste, whatever, that side of things. But they didn't need— for their marketing purposes, they didn't need to know the person. And because they were using her as a cash crop, They didn't need to think about her sensibilities and sensitivities. You know, they were just— she was just there to be exploited, I guess.

She was an object, not a person.

She was an object. And it was interesting when she left the relative protection of the royal family. So I can't remember, it was about 4 or so years before she died. There was a sort of glee among the worst aspects of the UK media that they suddenly had her really at their mercy. And they would say, Terrible things. To get her looking startled for a photograph in the street, they would use the ugliest words in the English language against her. And she would turn and be shocked. And then they would say, Princess Di looking tormented. Or, I mean, it's just insane, you know? But it was self-serving and it was vicious. And it really upset me when I was reliving some of this when I was writing about— there's one paparazzo who was particularly persistent on her. Who was that? And he said that he would follow her till the day she died, and then— and I changed what he said— then urinate on her grave. And you just think, who is this person to say that? It's just— it's sort of beyond any comprehension. You're saying this to, still, a young woman, a young mother in the street, and you're doing that?

I mean, why? You know? It's so upsetting.

During half of your times, was she... ...excited about her wedding. I mean, take us back to what that was like for her, for you. Did she see it as— I mean, most people, when they get married, they're very excited about their future. Was she?

She really was.

Until?

Well, you see, if we take it back to— I remember she was living in an apartment with 4 girlfriends, and she rang me up and said, oh, you must come round. And I went round. And yeah, I sensed something big was happening. She looked so excited. And then she curled up on the sofa and she said, Carlos, I'm getting married. And I, being flippant, said, to anyone I know? And she giggled and then told me, and she was so excited. And then the girlfriends all burst in and they were so happy. So— they're 19. I mean, this is crazy to me.

Well, you knew that they were seeing each other, right? So you were kidding when you said, is it anyone I know? Yeah.

So they've been seeing each other I think it started the September before, September 1980, something like that. And then she got engaged in February '81.

That was quick.

It was quick.

That was a very quick courtship.

Yeah. I think Diana famously counted up the amount of times they'd spent time together before the engagement. It's like 13 times. You know, it's an extraordinary courtship really. But she was, what I was pleased about was people saying, why is she marrying him? You know, why would you sort of thing. And I could tell she was in love with him. You know, a 19-year-old in love with this man. That was genuine. So that was nice.

How much older was he?

12.

12 years older. And so she was excited and thrilled until, you write, her future husband said something to her and— It was really upsetting. Can you tell us what he said?

Yeah. So, 2 things. I know you're not referring to this, but one was at the time of the engagement, he sort of felt around the waist and said, oh, you're getting a bit chubby down there, which was probably not meant to be cruel, but of course, to a 19-year-old in love would've been devastating.

And also to someone who had an eating disorder, by the way, and had issues with her weight already.

To be fair, not that he would've known about the eating disorder, but still.

No, no, but still, I'm sure. And then she's hypersensitive, so he says that.

Yeah.

I think most women watching or listening to this can understand how— Oh, my goodness.

No, I totally understand.

You'd wanna punch him in the nose. But go on.

Yes. No, I totally sympathize with those wanting to punch. Diana told a friend, not me, you know, that he had also said the night— I think that— sorry, 24 hours before they got married, said that he was sort of very happy to marry her, but she had to realize that he wasn't in love with her. And I think Diana was a romantic, always. And I, you know, you can only imagine the devastation of that to a bride the night before, day before her wedding.

And she went to your father and told him that she couldn't go through with the wedding, right?

That was before that. She was already worried. Look, you know, What was my father meant to do? You would hope, you would hope the father of the bride would say, well, you shouldn't have to get married or whatever. My father was born over 100 years ago and he had grown up in the army and then been a courtier to the royal family. And it was probably incomprehensible to him that there could be such shame on the royal family and on his, I suppose, on his own family too. So he was put in this very difficult position. Um, and he said, I think you've gotta go through with it.

Um... It's pretty hard to say, don't marry the future King of England, isn't it?

I think so. Uh, and my sisters famously said, too late, Dutch, your face is on the tea towel. They were trying to make light of it. But, you know, it was sort of— there was a whole industry around that wedding. And England—

I remember.

Do you— I never knew how much it played over here until the wedding day. But I know the wedding day was a big deal. I found an article in the New York Times from that period just before the wedding. And there was sort of, the correspondent was going, well, we don't know much about the British royal family. We don't know much about this sort of muddy, windswept island in the North Sea, but this seems to be a big deal. And it's almost like that day of the wedding was so good for the royal family and for Britain, But probably less good for Diana, really.

You obviously stayed in touch while she was married. They were married for how many years again, Charles?

Um, well, they were actually married— between marriage and divorce, I think it was 15 years.

So obviously you continued your fraternal relationship with Diana. What were your observations of Prince Charles during that period of time? Were there moments where You liked him? Were there moments when you thought that they were happy as a couple?

I never knew how unhappy Diana was until she did the Andrew Morton book, because she then asked me to contribute to it. I regret to say I was probably just so busy getting on with my own life. And I think Diana spoke more about her marital problems to our mother and sisters than to the younger brother. But with the Andrew Morton book, I was like, you don't want to be doing this. And she said, I have to. You know, people think I'm living in a— I can't remember her exact expression, but the bottom line was she was living in a gilded cage. That's really what she was saying and how unhappy she was. And she needed the world to know. And she said, would I help with the book? And I said, well, actually, no, if that's all right. And then she said, well, she sort of begged me to do it. And I said, well, I will happily talk about our shared childhood, but not beyond that, because it's none of my business. And she was disappointed in me for not going further. But to be honest, I didn't— I hadn't observed their marriage up close.

You know, I'd overlap— they would spend a weekend every autumn or winter at our family home at Althorp. And I'd see them there. And there was no— I mean, I wasn't looking for trouble. You know, I wasn't looking for cracks in the marriage. I was just turning up as a friend.

So you had no idea?

I didn't, no. And— but then my other 2 sisters were married and were happy, and I just assumed everyone was fine. You know, I wasn't looking for trouble.

Were you aware that he had said to her, I'm happy to marry you, but I want you to know I'm not in love with you?

No, I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know that till after they split.

You write that over lunch at her favorite restaurant in London.

Oh, yes.

She said, I'm going to get divorced. Were you surprised then that she had become that unhappy? And I'm trying to remember when the Andrew Morton book was. Was that after the divorce, or right before it, or around the same time?

It was before before. So I reckon that was— it was a couple years before, I think, maybe, or a year before. Yeah, so she said, um, I've decided to get divorced. And I was surprised it was that bad. By that stage, I knew things were bad 'cause it was after Andrew Morton. And I remember thinking for a moment, and I said something along the lines of, well, of course I fully support you, and I know you'll have thought about this deeply. And I said, but I just gotta say, I'm not sure the public will understand because they bought into a fairy tale, and they may blame you for ending the fairy tale. And then she said this line of— which I put in the book, which was, but my husband's in love with his valet. And we didn't push that any further because the headline was, I'm getting divorced. So, I remember that, what she said though, because it was quite a jarring thing. But the divorce was the headline.

Okay. Not to be an American rube, But what the hell is a valet?

Yeah. A valet is, uh—

And who was this valet?

Um, well, a valet is a very obscure thing, even for me. I've never had one.

I mean, I've heard of a valet at a parking garage.

Well, it's the same word, but spelled— uh, pronounced differently, I guess. So, the most famous one would be Jeeves, uh, from P.G. Wodehouse. So, it's like a butler.

So, like a butler. So, was this a man she— he was ostensibly in love with? I mean—

Genuinely. I genuinely— that was— And I went, oh, well, then I get, you know, whatever. But she— there were no main names mentioned then or afterwards.

But did you assume it was a man? Are there female valets?

I suppose there are female valets, but it would more normally be a male.

But what, what, what was— I mean, he obviously apparently was actively involved with Camilla, right? during this whole period, correct?

Yeah, he's admitted that.

So, but that was—

I'm sorry, I don't know about in the whole period, but he certainly admitted she was a factor.

Right. But this was some other reason that Diana was giving. But obviously, she also knew about this relationship with Camilla Parker Bowles.

She certainly knew about that, yes.

So it was the valet and Camilla? I'm just trying to follow this here, Charles.

I know.

All I can do is record what she said. And that's it. We did not, I mean, genuinely didn't explore that avenue. But it was a big thing to say.

And I also think maybe years of being, I mean, I'm projecting here, but years of being in a loveless marriage had started to take its toll.

I'd have thought so. I mean, I don't know. I mean, with Diana, It was— I juxtaposed the, you know, the young— the 19-year-old curled up with such excitement on the sofa in her apartment shared with her girlfriends, and then the forlorn figure telling me over lunch in London that this is all over. And it's very sad, yeah.

Do you think there's anything about her that explains why the marriage didn't work too? Do you think she's— Oh, yeah.

Look, I'm very keen not to judge the marriage.

That she's blameless. I'm just curious.

No one's blameless in the breakdown of a marriage. But I actually don't— we've covered some points. I make a clear point, I'm not here to judge the marriage. I'm recording things that Diana said to me or people very close to her or whatever. So that's really as far as I can go because then I would be projecting into the story and that's not really my role. So I do realize that your audience won't know, but I sort of write history books and have— well, I was a junior colleague of yours at the Today Show a long time ago. So I've come up in a world where facts are important. So I'm very happy to record facts. I find it much harder to extrapolate from them other people's feelings.

I met Diana around this period in Chicago. She was coming to the States. She was at this luncheon that was raising money for breast cancer research. I sat not next to her, but 2 seats away from her. She complimented my lipstick.

That's very good. That's very flattering.

She liked my lipstick color. And then she was asking how to keep William and Harry from watching too much telly.

Oh, yes.

'Cause I think they were young teenagers. So, she was really lovely and easy to talk to. Beautiful. I mean, just spectacular looking. And as you said, so stylish.

Yes.

And I asked her, I said, this must be exhausting, you know, traveling all over the country. I don't know how many cities she was going to, but, you know, just exhausting shaking hands, making small talk, meeting people. Person after person after person. And I said, you must be so excited to go home. And she said— kind of looked at me and said, yes, but I'll be going home to an empty house.

Oh, that's so heartbreaking.

Yes.

And it made me so sad for her. First of all, I was kind of, like, surprised that she was being so honest and vulnerable. And it just made me so, so, so sad for her.

Yeah, no, that's devastating.

That was an incredibly difficult time for her, wasn't it?

It was. I think it was probably Probably around that time she spent Christmas with me. So one of the things when, in the olden days, doesn't happen anymore, but back when Diana married into the royal family, as soon as you entered it, that was the end of your family Christmases. You had to spend them with the royal family rather than alternately like most people do with both families. And so she spent the Christmas in about '93 or something with me. And it was agony. I walked in and she was watching the telly. Telly, as we just called it. She was watching her sons doing their royal duties at a church service on Christmas Day, and she was in agony missing them. She was a world-class mother. She really, really was. I say it in the book, I've never seen a better mother. There are lots of brilliant mums, but I've never seen a better one. And I think possibly, you know, Well, she put them before anything, really. I think one of the tragedies of the British class system too is this, certainly much less popular now, but the habit of sending children away to boarding school as well is devastating for everyone.

At what age generally?

7 or 8 for boys and a bit older for girls. And of course, boys at 7 or 8 are babies, aren't they? And, but it was the done thing. And again, going back to different cultures and attitudes, women from those households really often didn't get a vote. You know, you've married into my family. By the way, my family were doing it too. This is the way we do things. I've spoken to a lot of elderly ladies now in their mid-80s onwards who had sons go away to boarding school, and they agonized about them going. So there's Diana going back to an empty house because her boys have been sent to live with other people for 2/3 of the year to be at school, and it's just terrible.

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You write about her sadness and you You write, I wished then, as I did countless times in the aftermath of her death, that Diana had known how very deeply loved she remained in her final days. I'm convinced that she had no idea. Indeed, I fear she felt the opposite was true. She read the British tabloids avidly, against the advice of us who loved her, because she could not stop herself doing so. And to her tearful despair, so much that was written about her at this time was critical and cruel. I feel so badly that she read this garbage and that it obviously had an effect on her.

Well, even on the Sunday where she died, um, on the 31st of August '97, several of the Sunday papers were leading with attack articles on her. And then when the accident happened, they all sort of quickly changed, you know, to Diana dead and Suddenly she became the People's Princess. That's right. But up until that point, certainly the last 3 or 4 years, she was just a punchbag for them, really. And it was a terrible time. Terrible. And she did, she did read it, you know. I mean, you brought up that review right at the beginning. I don't read about myself in the press 'cause first of all, I don't find myself very interesting. And secondly, I don't want to read other people's poison, you know? I don't need it.

What do you think attracted her? I mean, why? At some point, you would think she would say, this cannot define who I am or how I see myself. But she couldn't help it.

How—

why was that, you think?

My genuine belief is that it tapped into the insecurity in her. and fed it, obviously in a bad way. But it was— if you're already feeling bad about yourself, it's almost like a reassurance that you have a right to feel bad about yourself 'cause other people feel bad about you. There's no logic in this, Katie. I'm not saying— I think this is what was happening though. She would go out into the streets and be applauded, but she would go home and read this, It created some incredibly dark moments for both of you that you write about. Yeah.

I—

this is— it's a matter of public record. I felt able to write about it for Diana 'cause it's already been written about. Otherwise, I wouldn't have. But she drove to the south coast of England. There's a place called Beachy Head, which is a— very sadly, it's a place where people commit suicide. precipice, really. And then people have ended their life there. And I like to think she was— it was a very distant notion. But yeah, she did go and contemplate suicide, I believe.

And at times you felt that way too.

Yeah.

Let's talk about the last time you saw Diana. What do you remember about that meeting?

Well, first of all, it was a chance meeting. It was her birthday. 1st July, '97. And some friends said, oh, did I want to come to a dinner at one of the big art galleries, public museums? And I went, yeah, sure. And I turned up and then they said, oh, look, your sister's the guest of honor. These are the sort of things that happen when your sister's the Princess of Wales. And first of all, I talked to friends on my table afterwards when it all happened. And they said they'd never seen her look more beautiful than that night. She'd really hit her in that last year or two. And obviously hard for a brother to understand, but she was mesmerizing in her elegance and beauty to a high pitch, you know. But then I went ahead—

Well, she exuded happiness too.

Yeah, she was happy.

Which is the most important part of beauty, right?

That's true. And I do think one of the many tragedies of Diana dying when she did was that she had come into her own, actually. She'd worked out who she was. that she was gonna still be a big thing, but in her own way. And I just went up and said, hey, Dutch. And she went, oh, Carlos, I didn't know you were here. And I said, well, I didn't know you were here. You know, it's one of those sort of easy conversations that you can have.

Wait, you were at a dinner party?

Well, it was round tables, and she was on the top table, and I was on a— somebody had brought a table.

So it wasn't really for her birthday?

No, it was— she was doing her duty as a patron, I think, of the museum or whatever. I said, did you get my gift? Which I can't remember what it was. And she said, yeah, thank you so much. And I said, And just a— probably a minute and a half of just catch-up. And then that was it. And that's the thing with sudden death. It's just so irrevocable. It's gone, isn't it? That moment. And you just think, God, I wish I'd done more, said more. But it was just— that was it.

Do you remember when you heard the news?

Yeah. So I was living in South Africa at the time. And I got a call in the middle of the night, and it was Diana, my sister Jane, who's the— most families have them, the sort of sensible one. And she said, nothing to worry about, but Dutch has been in a little prang, in a little crash in Paris. And I thought, hmm. I wasn't worried, but I thought, well, I knew even that would be in the news. So I flicked on the TV. the news in South Africa. And it was already being covered, actually. But it was just— the commentators were being flippant and saying, oh, what do you expect? She's hanging out with a playboy. These sort of things happen. And then the phone kept going through the night with my sister Jane, and her husband worked for the Queen as the private secretary, which is, you know, like a chief of staff, I guess. And it got worse, you know, then I that Henri Paul, the driver, and Dodi Fayed, her boyfriend, had been killed instantly. And so that wasn't a minor prank. And then I heard that she'd had a blow to the head, and it was getting worse and worse.

And then there was a sort of escalation through the night. And then suddenly, I heard Robert, my brother-in-law, in the background go, Oh, no. And then Jane said, she's died. And it was sort of awful. I was the only adult in my house with 4 young children. And yeah, it was tough.

I can't even imagine how— what a shock that was.

Total. And then I had the world's press appeared on my doorstep. And it was all a nightmare. You know, it was a total— it was You know, I've always felt one of the things that made Diana's death so hard for the world to digest would be if you'd taken a global poll the day before of the least likely person on the planet to die, Diana might've come top of that list. You know, she's in her mid-30s, she's super healthy and well and everything. So, you know, to be one of the million people that year who dies in a road accident, that is— it's so humdrum and, you know, cruel and unforeseen.

Shortly after it was confirmed that Diana had died, you got a call from Prince Charles. And you write, which is so upsetting, and I know you've talked about this a lot, Charles, that he, quote, sounded giddily elated, like a lottery winner. How could that be?

Well, again, I can't speak for someone else, but what I can tell you, I had dozens of calls that morning. And they were as you'd expect, you know, people reeling with shock and those close to Diana or me really unhappy, you know, upset. And so that tone stood out very dramatically. So that's why I remember it. You know, it was just so jarring.

Do you remember exactly what he said?

No. With that one, I just remember the tone. Well, I do remember the news he was imparting to me, such as that he had gone in earlier and had told William and Harry that they were at Balmoral, the Queen's estate up in Scotland, and that he had told them. But I don't, I don't remember the words beyond that, no, of that call.

Do you still believe that this was an accident? I guess there have been all sorts of conspiracy theories and Things have been written about that night and dissected and analyzed. Do you still think it was just this driver who had too much to drink speeding away from a paparazzo? I guess it's the singular of paparazzi.

There was a whole storm of paparazzi behind her. So, first of all, I don't think there was a conspiracy involved because I just logically, I cannot see that that would work, you know? That it's so random to— No one knew the car was going that way. No one knew anything. So, the logistics don't add up to a conspiracy for me. But being pursued at high speed by a lot of paparazzi, who then continued to take pictures of her when they knew she was dying, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And were encouraging each other to get stuck into the photographs 'cause it's their last chance to profit from her.

Yeah.

You know, that's—

So disgusting.

Yeah.

You reveal a lot about Prince Charles. And in fact, this has been in a lot of the coverage of your book, as you know, during the lead-up to the funeral. You learned from a palace liaison that Prince Charles wanted Prince Harry, who was just 12 at the time, and Prince William, who was 15, to walk behind Diana's coffin. And that led to a very heated call. That you had with Prince Charles. This, of course, is something you've talked about that I think is so shocking and so upsetting and so heartless and callous. As you recall this conversation, can you tell us about it? I'm sure you're sick of talking about it.

No, no, no, it's a very important thing. So first of all, I would like to explain that the structure I took for the book was The knot that pulls it together is the construction of my eulogy. I use that as the device. So the reason this is in is because it became part of my eulogy as a counterpoint, as I'll explain. But Prince Charles— so the liaison guy, Colonel Ross, had called from Buckingham Palace and said, it's been decided that the 2 princes will walk behind their mother's coffin. And I said, well, that's not gonna happen. As in, don't be ridiculous. And he said, well, no, Prince of Wales has said it will. And I said, well, it's not gonna happen. And I— sounds very arrogant of me to say that, but Diana had left me as guardian of William and Harry, and I felt I could say that on her behalf. And then he sort of coughed and left the conversation. Polite, no problem. And then this dedicated line I had for calls to do with the funeral went again a few minutes later. And it was the then Prince Charles. And he said, I gather you've got problems with the service.

And I said, well, I haven't, 'cause I was thinking of the actual words. And then he said, I gather you don't want William and Harry to walk behind the coffin. And I said, well, of course not, sir. Diana wouldn't have wanted it. And then he said to me, well, I did it for Lord Mountbatten. And I said, yes, but you were 30 and he wasn't your mother. And he went nuts. And he was ranting. We've all seen him lose his temper. You remember the signing of that document after he'd had a drink became king and he had a tantrum with his fountain pen or whatever. So he was in full anger mode. And I was just listening to this stream of vitriol about my family not understanding the meaning of duty. And then just a lot of stuff. And then he stopped and I thought, oh, good, he's calmed down. And then he said what I call those 5 words, which is, we'll forget her soon enough. And I was stunned. And then I said, I can't believe you just said that. And I hung up. And that's important with regard to the eulogy, because first of all, I stressed Diana's sense of duty a couple of times in it.

And then my sort of rallying call at the end of the eulogy was that Diana will, you know, will never be extinguished from our minds. Those are the very last words of the eulogy. And that was a direct, you're wrong about that. And the fact that we're talking about that today, 29 years on, we're talking about Diana, proves that she wasn't forgotten soon enough.

What did you make of the response via palace spokesperson, which said, quote, while we do not comment on books as a matter of principle, His Majesty is mindful that the pain of fraternal grief can cloud reason, affect judgment, and color memory in ways others do not recognize. even many years after such a loss?

Well, I'd say 2 things. One is there's no denial in there. It's just a classic case of gaslighting. It's trying to make up that I was either too emotional or it's too far in the past, my memory can't be trusted. I told people about this straight away. I remember talking— I mean, it was so shocking. I told close family, close friends straight away. I remember even having a conversation with your former colleague, you know, Barbara Walters, about it a few months later. And she could— she was like, my God, you know, it's so jarring to see when someone's just lost their sister? So I know they can't deny it because it's, you know, well, I suppose a king can lie. But the point is, they had to just throw a sort of cloud of negativity around my memory.

There seems to have been a certain callousness by the palace writ large when this happened. Of course, that has been well documented in movies like The Queen and the response to Diana's death.

Yes, it's extraordinary, really, what keeps coming out.

Do you think they resented her popularity?

Hugely. I know it's absurd to you and me to think that an institution like that would— the members of it take potshots at each other. But I found out after I gave the eulogy that people working for Prince Charles would drip poison into the media about me through another PR agency. Who by chance years later I became friends with the boss of and she told me about it, but also briefing against other key members of the royal family. And it's insane. It's like Coke Zero briefing against Coke regular. You know, they're one brand to the public. And I do think that internal fighting of that sort doesn't help the brand.

Looking back on it, Charles, how emotionally damaging do you think it was? As we now know about sort of Harry and the fissure in the family, and his, you know, relationship with both his father and, of course, his brother, how much of it do you think stems from that horribly difficult time of— I mean, he's talked about this openly, uh, in a series he did on, on mental health.

Oh, yes.

And, uh, it sounds like there wasn't much of a support system for him when his mother died. And he's talked about how difficult it was following her coffin in the streets of London when he was just 12 years old.

One of the things I remember from the walk was that Harry, who was tiny at the time, was always ahead of the rest of us because I think he was just rushing to get the ordeal of that walk over with. And it's heartbreaking to think of that. I remember there was one moment during that walk, we were— we went under one of those huge ceremonial arches in London, and I reached over and gave him a hug. He wasn't there, you know? He had gone. to a safer place. I also remember, it's not in the book actually, but about 2 or 3 months after Diana died, Prince Charles was doing a tour of South Africa and I was living in Cape Town. And I was lucky enough to be involved in some of Mr. Mandela's, President Mandela's works. And so I was invited by him to a dinner in Cape Town. And I thought, oh, that's so nice. And I'll see Harry and all that. So I saw him in the lineup when we arrived. And then my girlfriend and I were put on table 28 with the royal pilot and the secretary from Bangladesh and were kept away from Harry.

I couldn't care less about table 28. We had a lovely evening. But if you were thinking about the little boy to be near members of his family, and actually Mandela rang me the next day to say how appalled he was. that that hadn't been taken into account. But it's like, I believe Diana was closed down as a subject, you know, for—

And you were a reminder.

Yeah. Yeah. And I had to be— so we touched on how bad, you know, the palace whipped up this publicity against me with this book. And that's, you know, in England. But what they did 29 years ago when I dared speak Talk about that, because I know that you were afraid—

you write about fears that they were gonna vet your eulogy.

Yeah.

And prevent you from actually delivering it or editing it in some way. You had to be pretty cagey about that.

Well, I didn't see it coming, but I was asked to the— I didn't know there'd even be one, actually, but there was a rehearsal for the funeral, and I was rushed from the hotel to the rehearsal. from the family home to Westminster Abbey for a rehearsal. And there was Elton John and there was Tony Blair. And they told me I must bring my speech. And it hadn't really bothered me. And I had one copy in my trouser pocket and one in my jacket. And when I got up to the place where I was going to have to read it out, I just remember these— a handful of people just came out of the shadows and they looked really sinister. And something went off. An alarm went off in my head thinking, oh my goodness, they don't know what I'm going to say and they want to know. So I knew the one thing I mustn't do is read out that speech then in a rehearsal. So I just played the upper-class idiot. And I just said, I'm so stupid, I left it behind. And they looked astonished. And then I said, but don't worry. You know, we'd done mic checks before.

And I just picked up a prayer book and I started— I hadn't even read a line from the prayer book and they went, That's fine. They weren't there for a mic check. They were there for a speech check. And I just knew at that point I must really keep it close to my chest.

What was the backlash to your eulogy?

It was huge. Not among the public. I mean, they took it— I mean, they were fine with it, I think. And they knew—

I thought it was beautiful, by the way.

Thank you. Thank you. But so the royal family took it as a proper attack on them. Not the Queen, actually. The Queen very graciously told that I had every right to say what I wanted to say at my sister's funeral, which I thought was very gracious of her. Prince Charles, et cetera, took it upon themselves. And he had extraordinary access through his team to the media. The British media just kicked the crap out of me. So what I've been going through in the last couple of weeks, I sort of knew was gonna happen again. It's what they do. People in America, I know you've got a global audience, but I think even people in Britain have no idea how powerful the royal family remain. You think, oh, it's nice pageantry and they flounce around at state occasions. They have direct access to seriously powerful people who are either sycophantic or going to benefit in some way. And this is what Diana came up against. You've referenced Harry's come up against it. I get it for 2 or 3 weeks and then they'll move on to someone else. Harry gets it every day and it's not okay.

You know, Talking about the press, you even made clear that you did not want the Fleet Street editors to come to the funeral. You disinvited them.

I did. I— that, again, you know, that was the right thing. Sorry, I believe that was the right thing to do given the circumstances of Diana's death. Yes, there was a drunk driver, but the prime driver that evening was being pursued by a pack of paparazzi at high speed. So I thought it was— I could not believe Buckingham Palace had invited the tabloid editors without thinking. So I rang each of them up and said, I'm very sorry this has happened, but given the circumstances, please don't come. I wasn't rude. I was just clear. And yeah, they were upset. But how mad of Buckingham Palace just to have thought, oh yeah, we'll do the normal thing. If this had been a state funeral of a monarch or something, yeah, that's normal. But this was a unique passing of a princess of the people, as it were. It didn't need to have that. It didn't need to have people who had made her life a misery for years given a seat at her funeral. It was just so odd and wrong.

A lot of people on social media wanted to know, did you speak to William or Harry before you wrote or published this book? And did you think that this might be painful for them to relive? And And I'm curious, Charles, if you think this book may make it even more difficult for Harry to reconcile with his father.

I decided really early on when I chose to write this book, which was only 13 months ago I started to think about it, that I wouldn't involve anyone in it. I mean, my wife knew, but I wanted my sisters, my nephews, everyone to say, no, this is Charles's thing. There's been an attempt because it's public knowledge that Harry and his family came to stay with me in July to say, oh, we must have been plotting this. We never touched on it. Equally, Harry never told me he was moving back to England. So no, I told them just before it was announced actually, because I said, I don't want anyone to feel responsibility. It's my responsibility, come what may.

What is your relationship like with Harry and William today?

Yeah, well, I'm just an elderly uncle, really.

You're not that elderly.

But the— I've always taken the view since Diana died that I'm there if needed and I'm not if not. And I never— I would never even have mentioned Harry came to stay, but he was photographed coming and going. So I think these are 2 men in their 40s and they can make of me what they want or not, you know.

But are you close? Do you talk to them?

Look, first of all, I'm not on anyone's side, but I think there's occasions when Harry may need me more. So I hear more, I hear a lot more from Harry, but that doesn't mean I'm totally equal and I'm just their mother's brother, you know.

And he's reached out more than William apparently. And how do you think he'll fare returning to England? Charles, do you think that's a good move for him?

Well, as I said, I didn't know about it in advance. But I guess he's English, you know, and he wants his children to have that culture too. So it made sense. When I first heard it, I thought, oh, okay. 'Cause I thought they were very happy. And I'm sure they were in Montecito. But I get it, you know. I think when 2 people marry from different cultures, you don't want your culture forgotten, really. I'm married, I happen to be married to a Norwegian and my stepsons spend a lot of time in Norway. So, you know, it's normal. I think you hit on a really interesting thing here, but they are just people at the end of the day and their dynamics are very normal. Except in an extraordinary setting where people comment on what they're doing. I mean, if this was your neighbor and they chose to live in the country of their birth, you or I wouldn't have an opinion.

Be like, oh, we get it.

Yes.

But everything is amplified to such a degree. Everything, again, dissected and evaluated, not to the degree it was for Diana, but—

It's not far off. Yeah. That's the extraordinary thing. The press are much better behaved than 30 years ago. I will say that in the UK.

Really?

Yeah. They can still be vicious or whatever, but day in, day out, they're much better.

In fact, didn't some legislation get passed, Charles, that after Diana's death, that I know that— I'm just recalling this now, that you helped promote and push for? Or am I misremembering that?

No. Well, I don't think it was legislation, but I think there was a realization of a big issue.

Maybe policies or internal policies.

Internal policies in the media. And I certainly don't take any credit for that. That was just common sense. 'Cause a lot of those editors later admitted that they were involved in Diana's death.

What do you think Diana would think of this book, Swan Song?

Well, I have to say, her closest friends, et cetera, said that— well, one of them is Richard Kay, who happens to be a journalist, who was her closest professional confidant for 5 years before she died. And he said he actually wrote it. He said that it was the book that Diana would've wanted me to write for her. And that's pretty good.

And swan song has 2 meanings here, doesn't it?

Yes. I think, well, I wanted the swan because of Diana's elegance, but swan song is almost, she was deprived because of her sudden death from having a sort of final say. And I've sort of taken on a bit of that here. As I did at the eulogy. And then also, you know, I'm not gonna be spending the rest of my life talking about my sister. And I just wanted to do it once and for all, really.

Well, Charles Spencer, thank you so much for coming and talking with us about your sister. I'm sure it's painful for you too.

Yeah, it does pain me.

I think people forget, you know, after all these years, you lost your sister.

Yeah.

When she was very young.

Yes. And you sort of— I've sort of looked at this, you know. I'm sorry that you— sibling loss is a— which you know about, is very hard to digest. It is, because it's your childhood as well.

Well, thank you again.

Thank you.

Next Question is a production of Katie Couric Media and Acast. The executive producers are me, Katie Couric, and Courtney Litz. Our producers are Adriana Fazio and Julia Lewis, and our production coordinator is Alyssa Horowitz. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode or to sign up for my newsletter Wake Up Call, visit us at KatieCouric.com and follow me on Substack and all the other social media platforms.

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