Transcript of Lorena and John Wayne Bobbitt

Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna. I'm Ash, and this is Morbid.

It is morbid. What's up, squirrel friend?

Nothing, we were just looking until we, we had like a like a— we were teaching Ash, me and Aiden, about some rock lore earlier. Yeah. So we just got through all that.

That was interesting. I learned a lot.

Yeah. It started with a rock of love.

Yeah. I realized I've never seen Rock of Love. I've seen clips for sure.

And I said, oh honey. But now I want to watch it. We'll sit you down. I know. Watch a bunch of women fight over Bret Michaels.

That sounds like an absolute nightmare, but I love reality television.

And you love horror.

And I love horror.

So perfect. Let's go.

Absolutely iconic.

Yeah.

Do we have any bitnass?

We do. I don't think. Oh, we do. We do. We have a fun bitnass.

A fun bitnass. So our game that we collabed with Hunt a Killer to come out with, the Salem Slicer.

Salem Slicer.

The Salem Slicer is now available on our Sirius website.

Hell yeah.

And on Pod Swag. So anybody who was upset that doesn't live in the US or in Canada, You can get it, I think, on, um, Podswag. And that's like international shipping. That's for you, brought to you by you, for you, from you, and all about you is international shipping.

Exactly.

Yeah. And Podswag.

And thanks for caring.

Yeah, thank you for wanting the game. It's fucking fun.

So guys, it's really fun. And I— we, we did a special podcast episode for it, for the case in the game.

Yeah. So when you get the game, you get an exclusive Morbid Pod episode.

As part of like the solving of it. And it's, it's so much fun. And I think the— what the world needs right now is a bunch of cool people sitting around a board game and solving a fictional murder.

I wish you set that up as like, what the world needs now is people sitting around a board game. We could go so far with that and just lose half our audience.

Yeah, that's okay though. But Seriously, like, let's—

let's—

but for real though, get wholesome with it. Yeah, come on, get a game. Wholesome with a fictional murder.

Yeah, definitely.

You know, let's get analog.

Analog.

Sit in front of a board game.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

What does that mean?

Why do people say that?

I know, it just makes me think of clocks.

I mean, sure, yeah, there's an analog clock. Yeah, like a A wristwatch would be an analog clock. Yeah, that is. That's something like not digital.

That, oh, so analog is just not digital.

So analog hobbies are things that are like knitting, crocheting. Oh, okay. Putting together a little miniature, like things that don't involve technology.

Vinyl. Vinyl.

Vinyl.

That's what it is.

Yes, vinyl is analog. Like things that don't, and I shouldn't say technology, that don't involve like digital interference.

Like being on the internet.

Yeah, like being on the internet.

Okay. That makes so much sense. You always say—

Like, streaming things is not analog.

Screaming things?

Streaming things. Streaming things.

I was like, screaming things actually feels kind of analog.

No, the internet is not analog.

I had a feeling that's what you meant, but I just agree with you so often about going analog that I was like, you know what, I should know what it means.

I love that you didn't know what it meant. I'm gonna look up the actual definition for you just so it makes it clearer.

I like felt like I knew what it meant, but I was like, let's be totally sure.

Yeah, it's a— well, it says a system, device, or signal that represents data using continuously variable physical quantities.

I'm glad that you didn't tell me that first because I would have said, shut up, I don't want to hear anything else.

Yeah, they— oh, so this makes more sense. Analog devices use physical measurements like the sweep of a clock hand.

Yes.

You know, physical measurements, the voltage of a copper wire, like things you can measure that way.

Okay.

To like show you a value of something.

Okay. I love it.

So, but like, people will use like analog hobbies as like things that don't involve the internet.

I like it, I like it.

Like an analog life.

So let's go analog. Yeah, not completely, cuz TV's not analog, right?

That one's hard to—

oh, this is fun. Like VHS, that's— is it analog?

VHS feels weird, right? It feels like it's a little bit in the—

so if I'm not streaming, then it's—

then 'Cause obviously like the way we use analog now is a little different from the like exact definition of analog. Yeah, yeah. It's like aesthetic, you know what I mean? Like people have changed that definition a little bit.

Yep.

Is TV analog, considered analog, I should say? Let's see.

'Cause it's like physical media.

Yeah, I think like now it's not considered analog because it's so connected to the internet.

Yeah.

And so, yeah.

Okay, well, I can never go fully analog because I love Housewives, but—

Yeah, there was an original analog TV that used like signals to—

That's cool.

So that's a thing.

So if I watch that way, then I'd be—

Then you'd be analog.

I don't know if they have Housewives that way.

Probably not.

But anyway, yeah, I like some analog things so I can get down with everybody chilling out.

Yeah.

If you drank every time we said analog, I'm sorry to your liver.

Say analog again. Analog.

Okay. Okay. Anything else? We're going on tour.

Yeah. Not for Morbid.

Not for Morbid. Sorry, everybody just shook their head.

We are not going on tour for Morbid.

We're going on a little mini Morbid tour. Tour for Morbid. We are not doing that. Honey, honey, we just did Radio City. I would not do that.

We're going to a few places for The Butcher Legacy. And Ash is my conversation partner. Hi. Because I feel safe with her.

Oh, that's cute. I like that.

So it'll be fun and we get to talk about the book and writing and then I get to meet you and talk about the book and writing some more.

And she's live signing at a lot of these.

And I'm live signing. So I know a few of them are sold out, but I think you can still get your tickets to some of them. So check out my socials if you need to find the links for places.

I feel like I was born to be a conversation partner.

Hell yeah.

As a Gemini.

Oh yeah.

And a girly who was told all the time, like, like I got moved away from anybody in class.

Because you talk too much.

Yeah, they'd move me away from my friends and then they'd sit me next to somebody else and I'd be like, hey, what's up? What are you doing?

Hey, let's start talking.

You want to talk about everything? And they'd be like, oh my God, this girl.

I am the exact opposite.

Yeah, you don't be talking.

I just be quiet.

But we do be talking for a living. We do. We do be conversation partners pretty much every day. But yeah, that's very true. Yeah, we've never stopped conversing.

It's worked out.

Yeah, I like it.

Yeah, I like it.

All right, well, I think that's all we have. So, Jeffrey, mark down your time. Yep. Okay, today we're going to talk about a pretty famous case. I'd be pretty surprised if you hadn't heard of it, but hey, who am I?

Hey, you never know.

We're going to be talking about John and Lorena Bobbitt.

Ever heard of them?

Ever heard of them? If you haven't, here we go.

Oh boy.

And if you have, shall we revisit?

Let's go. Let's take my hand. Let's go on a journey together.

Yeah, come with me and you'll see.

Truly.

That the world is pretty fucking bleak. I just want to give a trigger warning at the top for rape and sexual assault.

Terrific.

It's pretty prevalent in this story.

Eee.

Themes of that. So yeah, if that's not something that you want to hear about, just skip to the next episode and—

We get it.

We understand.

We'll forgive you for anything.

Yeah, duh, like that, of course.

Yeah.

So let's get into it. Lorena Gallo was born in Ecuador in 1969, and she was actually raised in Venezuela. As a child, she watched American movies and American TV, just dreaming that one day she would be able to move to the U.S. Now, that day finally came for her in 1987 when she was issued a student visa after enrolling at Northern Virginia Community College. Not long after she arrived in the U.S., she found part-time work as a manicurist at a salon and she just had a pretty easy time making friends. One night, just a few months after arriving in the country, her friends convinced her to join them for a night out. They were going to go to a nightclub and, you know, do nightclub things.

Do nightclub. That's analog. Yeah.

And they were gonna— this nightclub in particular was gonna be near the U.S. Marine Corps base at Quantico. It was there that she met Lance Corporal— and I hope I said that correctly— John Wayne Bobbitt. He was a Marine from Niagara Falls, New York. Lorena was immediately attracted to John, and the feeling was mutual. They said, you're hot, I'm hot, let's do this. Uh, to Lorena, John was more than just handsome though. As a Marine in uniform, he represented that classic Americana that she grew up seeing in movies and on TV, like very romanticized. She said, I believed in this beautiful country. I was swept off my feet. I wanted my American dream.

I mean, I get it. Yeah, yeah. And it truly is like the, the image of like a military man, you know, feels very Americana.

Oh yeah, you know, you like, you meet him one night out and he sweeps you out, you go dancing.

I mean, that's the thing, you go dancing, you meet a Marine.

There's a million movies like that.

Of course.

Now John was equally charmed by Lorena at first. Remembering his first impression, he said she was innocent, she was real, real sweet. So they started dating, and within a year, he claimed that both Lorena and his mother, quote, started pushing the idea of marriage as her visa was about to expire. So after a few months of what he said was pressure, John gave in to their demands and agreed to marry Lorena. In a very romantic summation of the decision, he said, had to bite the bullet, I guess. Get married. Oh, Americana.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, wow, American dream romance.

Bite the bullet. Get married. That's nice.

Yeah.

If I ever heard that my mans had said that, that he just said, I guess I had to bite the bullet and marry you, that'd be real upsetting.

Jeez.

Now Lorena denies John's account of their road to marriage though. She claims that he proposed without any pressure and that there was never any mention of her student visa expiring or anything like that. Regardless of who asked who and for what reasons, they were married on June 18th, 1989, when John was 22 and Lorena was just 20. So they were pretty young.

Yeah.

At first, the marriage was everything that Lorena wanted it to be and hoped that it would be. But not too, too long after the wedding, the cracks started to show. John later said Lorena was a good wife a lot of the time, but she was obsessed with having her American dream. Her American dream. Her American dream. She said it all the time. Her boss had a big house, a cabin cruiser, a Mercedes. Lorena wanted all those things. She just wanted too much too fast. It's like, a girl can't have a vision board?

Shit, that's— she's just manifesting.

Look it up.

Yeah.

According to Lorena, it was just one month into their marriage when John's attitude toward her started to change. She said in the very beginning, like when they were dating and even in the really early days of their marriage, he was sweet, he was doting. But now, she said, he was demanding, pushy, and at times just downright cruel. When she made mistakes or did something that he didn't like, she said that he would mock her or even threaten to have her deported.

Oh my God.

Which is fucked up on an entirely new level. In time, the verbal abuse turned physical, according to Lorena, especially when she declined his demands for sex. In a 1993 interview, she told a reporter, every time he will hit me, he will just try to force me into the sex again. He trapped me. I feel trapped.

If that's what happened, that is fucked up beyond measure.

Super fucked up. Yeah. So by the time Lorena Bobbitt went on trial, which if you know this case, you know why, And if you don't, you will shortly find out. But by the time that happened, all the public and the media seemed to be able to focus on were the drastic actions that she took that led to her arrest. But there was a long road from newlyweds to that action.

Yeah.

To then divorce. And a lot of it was very chaotic and violent. In the 4 years that followed John and Lorena's wedding, Manassas, Virginia police responded to the couple's home on multiple occasions. In connection with domestic violence complaints, one of which resulted in John's arrest for assault and battery, but the charges eventually were dropped. But there's a very clear history here that things were going—

it's not like that came out of nowhere.

No, things were going poorly. Now, at the same time, friends and clients at the nail salon allegedly started to notice bruising on Lorena's arms and her neck. So with nowhere else to go when things turned violent at home, she would usually seek refuge at the nail salon. Either working or when it was too late, she didn't have a key to the salon. So when it wasn't open, she would just park outside and sleep in her car because she just felt safe there.

That's so sad.

Mm-hmm. Now, in 1991, John was discharged from the Marines and he struggled to find steady work. As a result, she became the couple's sole source of financial support, which, like, that's a lot.

Yeah.

And I mean, she's a nail tech. Like, obviously you can make great money, but yeah, she was just starting out and I don't think nail techs were making what they are today back then.

I'm sure not.

So the stress and tension over their financial insecurity— yeah, insecurity— only made things worse between them. Obviously financial stress is only going to— oh yeah— make things a million times worse. Now it seemed like anything could set off an argument, which often led to verbal abuse and then escalated to physical violence. Now it should be said, while Lorena claims that John was primarily the one committing the physical abuse, John did call 911 on a number of occasions and accused Lorena of assaulting him.

A very volatile relationship.

And I just point that out because I have to tell both sides.

Yeah, because that just is documented.

Now, living in a relatively upscale suburb, Lorena's salary from the nail salon quickly became insufficient, and in time, the couple's home ended up going into foreclosure. Desperate for solutions at that point and running out of options, Lorena started falsifying her customers' tickets at the salon to make it seem like she was earning more on each ticket in each service. Her boss eventually discovered that Lorena had taken approximately $7,200 from the salon over time. Wow. Yeah. By that time, she had worked at the salon for years, and they had become like a second family. So when the theft was discovered, her boss was actually sympathetic and didn't press charges.

Wow.

The boss said, she said she loved him and she wanted her marriage to work. She was going to do anything to try to make her marriage work.

Oh man.

Like including stealing.

Yeah.

Now I think what happened was eventually she just like paid the money back over time. Now her boss's act of kindness kept Lorena from the embarrassing and very costly consequences of going to court and maybe even jail. But it did little to ease the tension at home. Like I said, their home was foreclosed on and they ended up moving into a studio apartment.

So which— if it's already like volatile, now you're in an enclosed quarters.

Yeah, some of the financial pressure was relieved obviously by like spending less money on rent in your living situation, but the relationship didn't improve. Lorena claimed that John's verbal, physical, and sexual abuse continued and he claimed that Lorena became increasingly and intolerably jealous and possessive of him.

Oh man.

Yeah, by 1991, the relationship had pretty much deteriorated, and it was at the point where they started separating but then inevitably reconciling again.

Oh, what an awful way to live. Yeah, just like constant turmoil on a roller coaster.

And they just repeatedly questioned whether their marriage could be salvaged and if it was worth it to to even save it at all.

No.

After years of abuse, Lorena did want to get away, but she had also grown up in a strict Catholic family, so she felt that divorce was a sin.

Yep.

Not only that, but she also had invested a lot into her marriage, and to her, she felt like, quote unquote, giving up wouldn't just mean that the relationship was over, but it would be a sign that she had failed.

Yeah, and that's like a very Catholic way of looking at it too, like that you're giving up instead of saving yourself.

Exactly. It's like Catholic guilt. Yeah. So if she was looking for a sign that she should go back to John, it came in 1991 when Lorena learned that she was pregnant. Years later, she told ABC News that she was excited about starting a family, but that excitement quickly faded when she returned home and told her husband about the pregnancy. To her surprise, John was less than enthusiastic and told Lorena he, quote, didn't think she was up to the task of motherhood.

Wow. Not—

I don't think we're ready to be parents. I don't think you're ready because this will be on you.

Cool.

Like, that's shitty.

Cool.

He allegedly insisted that she have an abortion, and fearing that she would lose him if she didn't, she agreed.

Oh man.

Which, like, that's traumatic if that's not traumatizing. In a 2019 interview, John said, we weren't ready anyway, so I suggested we should wait. She wasn't happy about it, but you know what, 'What can you do?' That was in an interview. Uh-huh.

What an asshole. Yeah, like, that's— he's an asshole. What can you do?

So, you know what you can do, especially in the '90s?

And also, she wasn't happy about it, but— and it's like, oh, she wasn't happy about it? It's her body.

Her body. Also, John, you know what makes a baby. Yeah, exactly. Precautions if you don't think either of you is ready, or if she's not ready. Like, what the fuck?

No, that's a fucked up way to say it.

It really is. So basically their relationship started to become a marriage of convenience, if it was even that. I don't even know that it was convenient, but John made demands of his wife and Lorena acquiesced regardless of what she wanted or needed at the time. And sometimes she wasn't acquiescing, it was just happening. Yeah, allegedly. But no matter how often she gave in, according to Lorena, it was never enough. Later, her attorney, Blau Howard, uh, Blair Howard, would say the pushing, shoving, a punch here, punch there. And then she said it carried over into the bedroom, that he seemed to be very stimulated, excited by violent sex. Oh yeah. John denied ever having forced his wife to have sex with him, but he did admit that their relationship was physically abusive occasionally, from time to time.

From time to time.

Okay, that was my words, but he said occasionally. Finally, in the spring of 1993, the abuse and the unhappiness became way too much for the relationship to bear. One night after John had been physically aggressive with her, Lorena went to the local police department, and while she was there, she started filling out paperwork for a protective order. But as she filled out one section after another, which is a daunting task, yeah, especially if she was all by herself, it occurred to her that the order would likely mean her marriage was over, and she became washed with a feeling of shame. So she abandoned the paperwork and left the station before the order could be processed.

Oh man.

Which is just so sad.

Like, Yeah, you wish that she had some kind of advocate or like, I know, someone to be with her and let her know that like, if this is what you feel like you have to do, then this is what you should do.

Yeah. And like, this is your right.

Like, give her the confidence if that's what she felt like she needed.

Exactly. It's just sad that she didn't have that. Now, according to John, by the time Lorena went to the police station to file for the protective order, he had already asked for a divorce. He said later, that hurt her. It hit her like a ton of brick. She was crying and she was begging. She said she didn't believe in divorce, but I said it's pointless. What's the point of staying married? You're not happy, I'm not happy. Yeah, which, like, I agree with you there, partner. He claimed that while they decided how they were gonna proceed in terms of their living situation, he invited a friend to come visit and stay with them in the small one-bedroom apartment. This friend was Robert Johnston. So on the evening of June 23rd, 1993, John and Robert decided to go out drinking in DC. And John and his friend returned to the apartment in the early morning hours, waking Lorena by slamming the door. Robert Johnston went to sleep on the couch, and John went into the bedroom that he was still sharing with Lorena at that point. According to his account, he climbed into bed and tried to go to sleep, but Lorena started making sexual advances.

Ultimately, he admitted, quote, some petting was going on that night, but no sex.

Okay.

Now, in Lorena's account of the event, it's very different. John came into the room, quote, jumped on top of her, forcibly ripped off her underwear, and sexually assaulted her. Oh wow. She claimed it was the second time in 5 days that she'd been assaulted by him. After the assault, she said she remembered that John fell asleep and she just stayed up lying next to him trying to process what had just happened.

Yeah.

Eventually she got out of bed and she went into the kitchen to get a glass of water. As she stood at the counter holding the water glass, she noticed an 8-inch Ginsu kitchen knife, which was a brand that advertised for never needing to be sharpened.

I remember those— that brand.

Yep, it was just sitting on the counter. Later she said, I didn't want to teach him a lesson. No, it was survival, life and death. I was fearing for my life.

Damn.

So she picked up the knife and she returned to the bedroom. Standing over her husband, uh, at his side of the bed, she pulled back the covers to reveal him sleeping in the nude, and she grabbed his penis and dragged the razor-sharp blade across his shaft, which severed the organ entirely. Men, I'm really sorry for that description.

You have to be at such a point to do that.

Yes, absolutely.

That's all— that's my opinion on the matter. It's like, I'm not— I'm, you know, giving absolutely no opinion on what is happening here. I'm saying her state of mind to be in that place, I imagine you have to be in a real place.

You're not alone with that feeling to do that. Yeah, absolutely.

Like, that is an extreme measure.

Absolutely.

And so I feel like you are to just go for it. Like, that's the thing, like, I'm sure many women have thought about this.

Yeah, many. Yeah, but going, going through with it is much different than thinking about it situation. So obviously the pain and the shock woke John up immediately, at which point Lorena got the fuck out of there. She fled the apartment into her car and just started driving toward the nail salon. While still holding— I was just gonna say she was still holding it. She was still holding his penis.

Correct. I meant not correctly. There's no correct way to hold that. Nope.

While driving, not a severed penis.

Uh, like, you know, apart from its owner. Yeah.

No, nope.

Yep. I'm so uncomfortable.

About a mile from away from the home, she realized she was still holding John's severed penis. So she threw it out the window. She said, I tried to drive the car, but I had this thing in my hand, so I couldn't drive, so I got rid of it. I mean, she was in a state.

Yeah, I— this—

I have to say, this is not okay, obviously. Like, we're not— you can't go around like chopping people's penis off. But, but I do have to say, she was in a state.

Yeah.

And that's all.

That's all. That's all.

That's so— by the time she—

don't take anything from— no, we're like, this is a This is a strange case. It's a tragic case. Absolutely horrifying case. We're not telling you what to do or not to do. We're just saying you gotta be in a real place to go through with this kind of thing.

Yeah. And if we're telling you not to do anything, it's absolutely to not cut your husband's penis off. We don't condone that here. But like, I just—

I, I feel for Lorena for being at this place.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, so by the time she arrived at the nail salon, her usual refuge, it was about 4:30 in the morning. And as her adrenaline started to wear off, the immediate and long-term consequences of her actions kind of started to dawn on her.

Yeah, I imagine.

She called her boss, who she always went to for comfort, and together they called 911 to report what happened. So she did kind of like turn herself in, I guess you could say. Yeah. By then, the paramedics had already been called to the apartment to tend to John, but Lorena's call provided the police not only with her location, but also the location of the overgrown lot next to the 7-Eleven where she had thrown the severed organ, I will say.

Mm-hmm.

After combing through the grass and the overgrowth for a bit, officers were able to locate the severed organ. Despite the seriousness and the urgency of the moment though, the men on the Manassas Police Department didn't know how to proceed. Which I can imagine this was most likely unprecedented.

I was gonna say, I, I, you know what, I get that. I get not knowing how to proceed here.

It seemed that none of them were comfortable touching the severed penis, so they called for the paramedics, who they figured would have latex gloves and would know what to do.

I mean, here's the thing, I am— one, I'm like, why don't you have gloves?

I know.

But two, if you don't have latex gloves, I do understand not wanting to just like touch a penis, you know, a severed penis, palm a severed penis, or any discarded organ, you know. And you shouldn't— no, like, you should not be going around touching them with your bare hands. So I get that if that's the— that's what it is, like, we don't have gloves, so we need someone. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

Uh, Dr. Jim Sen, who later operated on John, recalled the law enforcement people wouldn't touch it. They stood around staring at it until the ambulance came up and gloves were obtained from the ambulance, and they finally had the courage to pick it up.

Yeah, I mean, but again, if you don't have gloves, you shouldn't be touching it. Yeah, I can't really like fall— if it's just like, ew, gross, I don't want to touch it, is this gonna make me gay touching a penis? Like, if that's the vibe there, then like fuck off. But like, if you don't have gloves, I understand not touching a severed anything.

Yeah, actually, you know what, like, you know, do police usually have gloves on their person?

I would think they should have latex gloves or some kind of Yeah, that's kind of what I would think. Or like a kit that should have some in there.

Yeah, I mean, it was the '90s.

I was gonna say, this is the '90s, so who knows. But I would think that should be something that would—

you know, that's kind of what I thought too, but I don't know.

I would think—

I've never been in a situation with the police where they needed gloves.

You should never touch any body part that's laying on the ground without gloves, or any, like, like any evidence. That's a thing. So I do understand that if that's That's what it is.

Although, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. So one of the officers at least had the foresight though to run to the nearby 7-Eleven and returned with a hot dog box filled with ice, um, where they placed the penis before it was rushed to the hospital where John had been taken. It is important always to put severed body parts on ice.

Yep.

Because it does— what does it do?

It like, it like, um, helps the, the vessels kind of remain intact to be able to reattach. Period. And it stops like the, you know, a necrosis that can happen. It's the hot dog box that really got me on that one. Yeah. I don't know if I'm alone in that.

No, I don't think you are.

Okay.

I was trying to breeze past it, but— Okay.

I couldn't let that go.

No.

And I think it would be silly if I let that go. None of you would believe—

That we let that go.

That I let that go. So that's why I'm mentioning it. You're not gonna believe me just going, oh, okay, yes, I mean, hot dog box.

What else would you really grab? What would you grab at 7-Eleven to put any severed organ in? Here's the thing, you don't know.

Probably a hot dog box. Like, it makes sense. It makes complete sense.

They're always grilling.

They always got a hot dog on tap. Yeah. And it's there. They're always there.

So it was pretty perfect because you don't want to just put it in a bag because then all the ice is gonna like— yeah. Melt and get the bag all crazy.

Sometimes the universe has a strange sense of humor in the weirdest situations, but I think that's one of those situations. Very true, you know.

Yeah.

And again, I mean, I couldn't let that go.

I would assume though that like a 7-Eleven sells ice, so you could get a bag of ice, but that would be really big.

Yeah.

So it's a good— you know what, we'll move on.

Yeah, cuz you don't want to just like put it in a big bag of ice and get it crushed, you know.

Yes.

At least a box you can keep it in a place where you can reattach it. The appropriate size. So it all makes sense. Yeah, but again, none of you would believe that I wouldn't at least mention that, so I'm being genuine with you.

Good for you.

Thank you.

I appreciate your genuineness.

Thank you. So urologist.

Genuineness. Yeah, I had to do your genuineness. So urologist Dr. Jim Sen happened to be the doctor on call at the hospital that night, and when he got the call about John Bobbitt, it was a little after 4:00 AM. In a 2019 interview, he said, I was on my way into the emergency room not knowing much about the case other than the patient had presented with an amputation of the penis. At the same time, Lorena and also John's severed penis were still missing. So Dr. Sen didn't know what to expect, like how they were gonna move forward here.

Yeah, that's a, that's a wild point in your career.

Yeah, I bet you don't get a lot of calls like that, especially like he's a urologist.

Yeah, so he's like, oh, that's not okay, that's not necessarily standard. Here we go.

So fortunately, before he started tending to the patient, Dr. Sen got the call from the police department saying that they had found the severed penis this, packed it in ice in a hot dog box, and we're rushing it to the hospital. And with that, he started making preparations to reattach the penis. In order to complete the surgery, he relied on assistance from Dr. David Berman, who was a plastic surgeon. That had transferred to the hospital just one month earlier. As luck would have it.

Can you imagine? You're the new guy in town. You're the new guy on—

On the block.

On the crew.

On the rounds. In the pit.

This is what he's— Yeah, in the pit. And this is the straw you draw.

I'm actually so surprised that the pit hasn't—

Had some kind of—

You know?

Yeah.

Recreation of this event.

That would be very interesting to see.

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's HBO, they could, right? I mean, they showed us a whole baby birth.

I was just gonna say, they've shown quite a bit.

Yeah, I think they've, yeah, anyways.

Watch "The Pit," it's a great show.

I love "The Pit." You gotta finish season 2, dog.

I know I do. I got really upset about Langdon, so.

I get that, well, he—

I was mourning.

Watch season 2. Okay. He comes back.

Good.

So Dr., sorry, spoiler alert. Dr. Sen said urologists don't generally replant organs. So Dr. Berman's assistance and his experience in working with tiny blood vessels like those in a penis was essential to their success.

Yeah.

The surgery took more than 9 hours to complete, but both surgeons were surprised how successful they were in the end. But it would be some time before they knew if the organ would continue to function normally. Thinking back on the injury, Dr. Sen is still surprised by how well everything went. He said, "I had never seen an injury quite this gruesome before in urology." It's really just a unique moment, and you can't help but get a gut-wrenching feeling in your gut to see it, though you quickly recover. As a surgeon, we do a lot of trauma, and you do what needs to be done.

Wow.

He'll remember that surgery for the rest of his life.

That's the surgery. Yeah.

I'm also sure, like, being a man with the same organ, like, you probably feel something about it. Yeah, you'd have to, you know, you'd have to.

Yeah, I would think so.

While Dr. Sun— Dr. Berman— like, I have no idea. So while Dr. Sun and Dr. Berman in the emergency room, uh, work to stabilize and reattach John's penis, the police arrived at the nail salon and arrested Lorena for the assault on her husband and charged her with malicious wounding, a crime that carried up to a 20-year prison sentence if convicted. Regardless of what had transpired in the weeks and months leading up to her assault— Lorena's assault on her husband— the case did seem pretty straightforward, and Lorena's actions did seem indefensible under all but the direct circumstances, you know. However, as Prince William County Prosecuting Attorney Mary Grace O'Brien was about to find out, there was very little about this case that was straightforward. And by the time a verdict was rendered, it seemed that everybody in America had already formed an opinion as to who was guilty and who was innocent.

Yeah. And people were on very different sides of this, as I'm sure people still are.

Yeah, probably.

You know, like, I'm sure there's crazy— like, it's not, it's not black and white.

It's not black and white.

No.

And it's just not— it's, it's quite salacious. Like, it's not something you hear every day.

And the way it was reported was very salacious. The way it has been turned into what has been turned into is very salacious. It's got all that.

Exactly.

But it's at its core, it's just sad.

It's very sad all around for a marriage to get to that point.

That's the thing. And for two people to get to that, like, it's really sad.

Now, given her confession, there was no doubt that Lorena would be held responsible for the violent assault. But what was likely a surprise to most was that after hearing her story and taking the allegations of rape seriously, the prosecutor did charge John with one count of marital rape. Now, this is fucking crazy. Prior to the mid-'70s, sexual assault that occurred within a marriage was exempt from the laws that criminalized rape.

That is disgusting.

And let me just break that down even further for you in case that's not quite hidden. That meant under most circumstances it wasn't illegal for a husband to sexually assault or rape his wife. What?

I don't know how anybody could think that that is—

I also said the main thing—

but disgusting.

1970s.

Yeah. Hello? Hello is right.

Like, what?

That's horrifying.

Absolutely it is. So throughout the late '70s and into the '80s, thanks to various feminist and activist groups, those laws slowly started to change only at a state level. But by the early 1990s, there were still several states where marital rape was not a criminal act. Like, how insane is that?

That's horrifying.

Now, regardless of all the legal frameworks that made it possible to prosecute marital rape, a lot of Americans at the time were actually surprised to learn that it was a crime, and some even argued over whether it should be.

Yeah, if you were on that side of the, the place—

if you're on this side, we don't want to hear from you. It shouldn't be a crime for a husband to rape a wife.

Yeah, I don't want to hear from you.

I— you gotta go.

Yeah, I don't— that's no. What? Nope.

What?

Nope.

Domestic violence activist, uh, Christelle Nichols, uh, Nichols told a reporter in 1993, these horrible things go on all day, every day, pointing to the domestic violence that had been taking place behind closed doors for centuries at that point. But like I said, not everybody saw it that way. National Center for Men director Mel Felt said—

oh yeah, let's hear from him.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this how I think it sounded: this is the result of feminists teaching women that men are natural oppressors. Shut the fuck up. No, this is the result of men raping their wives and people saying it out loud.

Truly, shut— what was his name? Mel Felt. Mel, shut the fuck up.

Yeah, get fucked.

Are you kidding me?

We're really gonna make this like a feminist start?

Like, what? Stop immediately.

I can't. So in early July, in his first public statement after the charges were announced, John vehemently denied having raped Lorena at any point in their marriage. His denial was accompanied by his vivid descriptions of how he had not only been physically assaulted by his wife but victimized in countless other ways. When he returned home from the hospital after a 3-week stay, for example, he said he found the apartment very nearly empty. His spokesperson Paul Erickson said she had removed every stick of furniture down to the frozen chicken.

Damn.

To which I say, do you consider frozen chicken furniture?

Do you sit on the frozen chicken? What, what part does that play in your decor?

I don't know, frozen chicken isn't a part of my decor.

It's not a part of mine.

Like, hello. Within days though, the Bobbitts' private arguments obviously spilled out into the public because of the tabloid press, which like in the '90s was running rampant.

It was the thing.

Yeah, and they got away with so much more in the '90s than they do today. It wasn't just the tabloids though that were interested in the Bobbitt story. By the end of, uh, July, nearly every news outlet in the country, from the National Enquirer to the New Yorker, was covering the story.

Oh yeah, the National Enquirer, like, that's wild. In the grocery store you'd see those. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Bobbitt story was elevated to the level of national attention mostly because of the violent act committed by Lorena, obviously. In a wild metaphor— metaphor— Mel Felt—

a wild metaphor—

I was getting ready to say Mel in my weird voice, so I said metaphor.

Metaphor.

Uh, in a wild metaphor, Mel Felt told the New York Times, in the battle of the sexes, this was like stealing the other team's mascot. You could—

you gotta go sit down. You gotta go sit down, Mel. I don't want to hear from you again. Do I hear from Mel again?

Mel, do you consider your penis a mascot?

That's why I need you to go sit down. I don't believe we need to sit down immediately. Are you kidding me, Mel?

This is like removing— stealing another team's mascot.

Your penis is your mascot.

My boobies aren't my mascot. Like, are we being real right now?

Come on, you're comparing your penis to WALL-E, the green monster?

How dare you? Are you real? How very dare you?

To Lucky? Get out of here. Get out of here.

Done.

Yeah, I won't hear it.

So while men nervously covered their groins and grimaced at the thought of the mutilation, many women and feminists around the country celebrated Lorena's crime as an act of liberation. One woman told the New York Times, usually the woman is the victim. This was the woman striking back. Every woman I've talked to about this says, way to go. I said, damn, girl. Not long after John started making the rounds on the radio and the TV news shows, Lorena just released a simple statement through a spokesperson saying, I was the victim of repeated emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. Everyone has a limit, and this was beyond mine. So there it is. Yeah, the combination of John's relentless victimhood, feminist cheers, and Lorena's simple statement acted as a spark in the powder keg that was becoming known as, back then, the Battle of the Sexes.

Oh my God, that, that term, like, that phrase, it was used everywhere. Oh, I remember that being a thing. Yup.

That was like every competition reality show.

That was a battle of the sexes.

This was a battle of the sexes.

It's like such an overused term.

Also, we can't chalk this, like, assault and demise of a marriage because of, like, so many different kinds of assault—

yeah—

down to a battle of the Well, that's—

and this isn't men versus women. No, this is just two individuals. And you look at it as an individual thing, right? And you look at it as a case-by-case thing and you look at it and say, what happened here? What led to this? Yeah, obviously that was an extreme reaction. What led to that reaction?

Right.

What's going on? Why, why would that reaction have occurred?

This is something—

what do we do about this reaction?

Like you're saying, this is something you need to look at in a very clinical setting. Yeah.

Not, not battle of the sexes.

It didn't need to be in the tabloids, but it— of course it was.

Of course it was.

Before either of them had even seen the inside of a courtroom or made the details of the case known, like all of them, they were national figures.

Yeah, of course.

But in the case of Lorena, she became a target. One man told a reporter she ought to be executed.

Oh, shut the fuck up.

It's like, that's crazy.

Like, really? Are you saying the same thing about, like, you know, serial killers and, yeah, like, child predators? Are you saying the exact same thing?

No, you're not.

Come on.

In the eyes of mostly men, Lorena had tried to rob her husband of that which is most precious, and she hadn't done it.

Is this— is this real?

Yes.

Like, that which is most precious?

That's how they felt back then. Um, and again, we're generalizing here. Not— there are men who were feminists back then that felt the opposite way, but there were men who felt that she had tried to rob him of that— is that which is most precious.

That's wild.

Yeah, and they didn't think that she had done it in an act of self-defense.

Well, it's also like you're skipping over any kind of argument you actually have here, which is like— I mean, the reality of the situation is that's assault. Yeah, it's like the end, period. So it's like you don't need to link it to like that which is most precious. No, it's, it's just, it's just at the end of the day, it's wrong. If you just chalk it to that, that's your, that's your answer right there. Yeah, you don't need to attach it to some mythological fucking penis mascot.

Yeah, you don't need to make your penis a mascot, that's for sure. Now, John's lawyer Greg Murphy said this was all contrived to strike back at him after he said he was going to leave her. She was acting out a fantasy that's in the psyche of many women. Oh, who said that? Because you would know, Greg Murphy, John's lawyer. Okay, John, you would know what I fantasize about. Yeah, yeah.

Oh babe, you wish. Period. Get the fuck out of here.

Like, shut up. Then that's the thing, that's the kind of shit that pisses me off. They make the argument very trivial in something that is not trivial at all.

No, this is a very serious case.

It just became man versus women.

Serious allegations on both sides of the, the situation.

Absolutely.

And it ended in a very serious thing happening that should be not taken lightly at all.

But everybody's just like—

the events leading up to it and the act itself, none of it should be taken lightly.

But everybody's just like, women crazy.

And to generalize and be like, even like them talking about like that, what men like find most precious, it's like, not all feels that way. Like, don't generalize like that. And then it's like, and all women have this crazy like part of their fantasy and they're like, fuck you.

Or even many.

Like, we're just generalizing like entire groups of people now.

The '90s love to generalize.

Honestly, I feel like we're back at it again.

Back at it again with the generalizations. It's true. Now, while the relentless news coverage of the story fueled the increasingly aggressive debate, there was still the matter of the potential legal consequences for not only Lorena but for John too. Yeah, although marital rape was a criminal act in Virginia at the time, the charge did require that the husband and wife be living apart when the assault occurred.

What?

So if you guys live together, raping your wife isn't a crime?

That's stupid as hell. Because also one of the hardest things is to end up moving apart. Yeah, at the end, like, money—

because they didn't live apart yet.

You have owned assets. It's like a whole thing. You're not just leaving.

I mean, look at the— in their case, they're both financially struggling. They couldn't live apart. They couldn't. They very much wanted to, it seems, but they couldn't.

That's like saying— and that's so stupid because that's like saying if two people are roommates and one of them rapes the other one, that because they live in the same house, that's okay. That's not rape. Like, but if they lived in two separate places, then they'd be a rapist. Yeah, like, what?

I don't understand the thought process at all. Yeah, but instead, at that time, the district attorney charged, uh, charged John Bobbitt with marital sexual assault. So to, to move rape down to sexual assault is wild. Yeah, that carried a penalty though of up to 20 years in prison if convicted, and John went on trial on November 8th, 1993. In his opening statement, Prince William County Attorney Paul Ebert laid out the case as he understood it. Lorena Bobbitt had been victimized by her husband for several years, including twice on the week of the attack, and she finally snapped and retaliated against him, cutting off his penis.

And that was the argument.

That was the argument. Yeah, this, the prosecutor claimed, was supported by the statements provided by Lorena's family and friends, who would also testify that they had some knowledge of the abuse. And had even seen bruises after previous beatings. This was testimony.

Yeah, this is all like part of the trial.

So among the more interesting testimony given during John's brief trial came from Lorena, who described their relationship leading up to the attack, saying she was, quote, distraught after he choked and raped her for the second time in 5 days. That was her testimony. The evidence against John was circumstantial but significant. In addition to Lorena's testimony, one of the officers who interviewed her on the evening of the assault testified that he was convinced that she was telling the truth. And he was quote unquote concerned for her safety because of what she told him.

Oh man.

There were also contradictory statements given by John as to whether or not he and Lorena had engaged in sex that night. At first he said they had, but then later he said he didn't remember, he wasn't sure. Despite all the evidence, John's lawyer Greg Murphy laid out a surprisingly simple defense. He said Lorena was a quote social climber who wanted to spite her husband for being a selfish lover.

Huh.

Yeah, uh, he said she had only concocted the rape allegations to support her self-defense claim.

Oh, okay.

Now, after just 3 days of trial, the jury retired for deliberation and returned less than 4 hours later to acquit John Bobbitt on aggravated sexual assault charges. Or this— it was a single charge. When the verdict was announced, his mother shrieked with joy in the back of the courtroom, and John pumped his fist with enthusiasm.

Cool.

The jury actually had been moved by Lorena's testimony, and they claimed they were sympathetic, but they ultimately felt that there was not enough evidence to prove the sexual assault charge. Juror William Voigt told a reporter, if someone had heard her scream or if there had been some sort of bruising, that would have been more substantive evidence.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, how—

it's—

how is she supposed to prove it?

How are you supposed to prove that? You're like, that's Yeah, just a few weeks after calling Lorena Bobbitt as a witness in the case against her husband, District Attorney Paul Ebert found himself on the other end of the argument at the start of Lorena's trial for malicious wounding. That had to have been wild. Yeah. Unlike the previous case where he expressed implicit sympathy for the accused, this time he made no secret of how he felt for Lorena this time, or felt about her. He told a reporter she belonged behind bars. Well, in a highly emotionally charged replay of John's trial, Lorena took the stand for a second time in her own trial to describe her marriage with John and her state of mind on the night of the attack. She described in graphic terms how he had choked and violently raped her, and she told the prosecutor through sobs, "It was hurting me. Maybe you don't understand because you're a man. He didn't understand because he's a man." Oh, that's really sad. It is sad. In addition to the emotional, verbal, and physical abuse that she claimed, she also told of John's various affairs and their effect on her psyche.

As for the attack itself, she didn't deny that she had done it, but she claimed she had been in fear for her life and genuinely believed that John would kill her, but also claimed that she wasn't in her right mind at the time. Now, while the claim may have made sense to most people, it was a different matter when it came to the law. Speaking on behalf of Lorena, one psychiatrist supported the self-defense and temporary insanity defense, saying that Lorena, quote, struck at the instrument of her torture. And she was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, which—

that seems—

I can understand that as an argument. I'm not saying one way or the other how I would feel on the jury, but like, yeah, okay, you can see that, that, that's logical. Yeah, like, yeah. However though, a psychiatrist testifying on behalf of the prosecution rejected the defense, saying the severing of the penis is goal-oriented behavior, and a truly impulsive act would have been random and indiscriminate. Okay, and I can see that side of the argument too. That's, that's tough.

Yeah.

In the end, the jury was left exactly where the American people were on the matter— a story of he said, she said, yeah, with only circumstantial evidence and their instincts to guide them toward a verdict. On January 21st, they came down the middle, finding Lorena not guilty by reason of temporary insanity, but recommending that she be committed to a psychiatric facility for evaluation.

Okay.

She was sent to a mental health facility and she underwent treatment and observation for more than a month before a Prince William County judge accepted the hospital's report that she was no longer a danger to herself or others, and she was discharged, effectively bringing the case to an end.

It makes sense when you're saying like temporary insanity. Yeah, it does make sense that that's an act of complete like blackout, you know?

Yeah, I think the thing— and I'm not arguing this, I'm just saying like I'm telling both sides of the story. I think the thing that people don't understand and like why they fight against the temporary insanity is because she went to the kitchen and had a glass of water and like people see that as a moment to—

yeah, and I can see that—

to come to your senses, I guess, for sure.

But I don't know, that's the thing, it's not a black and white case in my opinion.

It's not. I don't think so either. Among the more frustrating and disappointing aspects of the Bobbitt case though is that by the time Lorena was released from the mental health facility her story had gone from a tragic account of domestic violence to a national joke.

Yeah, well, that's the thing, it becomes a joke.

And same thing for John Bobbitt. At the end of the day, like, he, he was acquitted of that rape charge, so, you know, who knows at the end of the day. But it's like they both became jokes.

Yeah.

And this is not a joke when no matter what—

he even admitted that their relationship got physically violent. And it's like, no matter what, this is a tragic thing. Yeah, we're talking marriage was toxic and abusive and horrible by all accounts, by their own accounts. Yeah. And it's like, to— for it to become a joke after that when it ended in such a volcanic eruption. Yeah. That ruined a lot of lives. That's wild. It is. That we're just like, haha, LOL, isn't that funny? Yeah.

Once both trials concluded, the mutilation of John Bobbitt was a source of humor in everything from late night talk shows and Saturday Night Live to men's magazines like Playboy and even supposedly highbrow publications like New York Magazine. It was like everybody forgot about the abuse and the sexual assault that led to the act and just wanted to joke about it.

And I think it's easy to look at it with such a, a narrow lens of being like, wow, that was crazy. Like, you know, she cut off his penis and threw it in the field. Like, that's—

it's a crazy—

that is like crazy and like so like slapstick wild, like you can't even conceive of that happening, but go deeper. But then when you actually think about what led to that, why did that happen, what shit was going on that led to that, that nobody is saying made it right, or like, you know, I mean, it's just—

yeah, it's not right or wrong.

What is the stuff that happened behind closed doors that drove somebody to that?

Exactly. In a 2019 interview, Lorena told a reporter, they always just focused on it, and it's like they all missed or didn't care why I did what I did.

Yeah.

John, meanwhile, did everything that he could to cash in on his newfound stardom. In addition to making the rounds on cable and daytime talk shows, he sold t-shirts for $25 that said "Love Hurts." By the end of the year, John was featured in a pay-per-view New Year's Eve special, and then in 1994, he starred in his first porno, John Wayne Bobbitt Uncut, which was followed 2 years later by a second porn film titled John Wayne Bobbitt's Frankenpenis. Moving on from that—

wow.

Throughout the '90s and the 2000s, John used his status to his financial benefit. And while that might have helped with his legal and hospital bills, his stardom did not keep him out of trouble. In the year since the trial, he's been arrested several times for various crimes, including serving jail sentences for assaulting two different women he was romantically involved with. Wow. The last time he was in the news, it was due to his, um, he had to have several toes amputated because of toxic peripheral polyneuropathy. Which he claimed he contracted from severely contaminated water that he was exposed to during his time in the military.

Huh.

Yeah.

Okay.

Lorena, she took a different track after her trial. She chose to kind of try her best to blend back into her community and avoid the spotlight, only occasionally giving interviews. Like John, she was flooded with offers from countless news outlets and a lot of companies, including a $1 million offer to pose for Playboy, which she turned down. She returned to her job at the nail salon, and a few months later she met a man named Dave Bellinger, and they quickly fell in love. They were married, and today they have a daughter. Lorena said, before, when I was young, when I was married, I was really naive and young. I didn't know what I wanted. He's my best friend and he's a good father, referring to her new husband. As for the different approach to her life, to life her ex-husband took after this and after the trials, Lorena said that she was disappointed and frustrated with John. She said, that kind of did bother me that he was, you know, going up and trying to make money off a tragedy. And, you know, that was a tragedy. I mean, if he doesn't consider it a tragedy, he's wrong.

Yeah.

Over the years, she says that she's learned to make peace with the past, and she accepts that there will always be people who recognize her for this one moment in her life. But she does continue to speak out on behalf of domestic violence survivors and she says she hopes to open a shelter for women in need someday, like she was 3 decades ago. When she was asked about how she feels about everything that happened in general, she was surprisingly pragmatic. She said, "I'll put myself through the jokes and everything as long as I can shine a light on domestic violence and sexual assault and marital rape." Damn. And that is the story of Lorena and John Bobbitt.

Wow.

It's a wild case. Like, when you really break it down, what happened is tragic. It's tragic that she was abused in her marriage, that things got physically aggressive, quote unquote, or yeah, physical in any way. And it's tragic that she got to the point where she felt the need to sever her husband's penis. It's just so tragic. Their whole marriage, those stories and what happened is so tragic.

What happened before, what happened during, what happened after is all bizarre and tragic because that affects you for the rest of your life.

I mean, absolutely, people are going to talk about this story until the end of time.

Yeah, exactly.

But what a case.

I'm glad she is turning it into something positive. Yeah, by like advocating for domestic survivors.

Yeah, absolutely.

So like, good for, good for Lorena for turning it around.

You want to see like, you know, reform, I guess, to some degree. And she served her time in the hospital and then she turned her life around. So now she's paying it forward and she's not ever been violent again with anybody else. So obviously, yeah, she's doing a good job.

Yeah, it's like, hey, advocating for people who are going through domestic violence and rape survivors is an honorable thing.

Absolutely. Fun fact. Yes, fun fact, please. Mine or yours?

Lord, I'll find a fun fact. Okay, so this is a scary fun fact.

Oh, but you love that.

I do. Have you ever heard of Point Nemo?

Point Nemo. I feel like I have heard of that.

Point Nemo in the Pacific Ocean is the farthest place from land that we have on Earth.

Okay.

It is closer— if you are there, you are closer to the astronauts on the International Space Station than you are to any human on land.

I hate that. Yeah. Do people like sail to Point Nemo?

I don't know what people do with Point Nemo.

Do people go to Point— have you been to there, listener?

Let's look.

That's fucked.

Yeah, it's very rare that people go to Point Nemo, I would imagine, but they must know.

Yeah, like somebody's been there.

I think it's like extreme explorers, like scientists, like all those people.

Oh, but yeah, so Terrifying.

Point Nemo is the scariest place on Earth.

Apparently it's used as a spacecraft cemetery.

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Defunct satellites, cargo vessels, and retired space stations are deliberately steered into the atmosphere above this region so that any surviving debris harmlessly crashes into the deep ocean, well away from human populations.

Yes, that makes sense.

I want to learn everything about Point Nemo now.

It's gonna become a new hyperfixation, so I don't know how fun that was, but Yeah, it's cool though.

You know what, I should do fun facts and you should do fucked facts.

Scary facts. Yeah, maybe we'll do that. Yeah, so we'll say fun facts and then I'll say fucked facts.

Fucked facts.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

You have to make sure you pronounce the -ed. Fucked facts.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, we hope you keep listening for that. And we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you go to Point Nemo. I don't, I don't, I don't know, but someone go there. Somebody keep that weird, but like not too many people, cuz it sounds scary.

Scary. Bye!