Transcript of Beyond the Game: Mental Health, Pressure, and Purpose with Jay Paterno

What an amazing episode this is about to be with Jay Paterno. We talk about a lot of things, but here's some things. His new book, Blitz, it's a sports story that has a ton of parallels to leadership. And we're going to talk about that book. We're going to talk about his because it's amazing when you hear it. He admits to me at the end who his favorite Penn State player of all time is. I won't spoil it. You're going to go listen to it. And then we get the truth. Behind the 86 Fiesta Bowl, Penn State, Miami, if you don't know, there's an infamous story out there that Jerome Brown told us about. It's in a 30 for 30. Jay tells us the Penn State perspective is at the very end. I can't wait for you to listen or watch this episode. So ladies and gentlemen, I'm gonna stop. Here is my good friend, Mr. Jay Paterno. You're listening to Mick Unplugged, hosted by the one and only Mick Hunt. This is where purpose meets power and stories spark transformation. Mick takes you beyond the motivation into meaning, helping you discover your because and becoming unstoppable.

I'm Rudy Rush, and trust me, you're in the right place. Let's get Unplugged. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today I have someone who I've looked up to for a very long time. He's a leadership coach, a change maker. An author who's redefining what legacy really means. From the sidelines of Penn State to the front lines of public service, he's inspiring leaders to lead with courage, character, and conviction. And his new book, which we're gonna get into today, is sparking conversations nationwide and several with my VIP clients. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome the bold, the principal, the visionary, my guy, Mr. Jay Paterno. Jay, how you doing today, brother?

I'm doing great.

How about you, man? I am honored to be here with you. You know, I was telling you offline about the book and how a lot of my clients are looking at it and reading it, and there's a lot of parallels there. So I'm just honored, one, to have you on the show, and two, I want to dive into this book. This is about to be a masterclass that you're going to give out today. So I hope everybody's ready, man. But how are you doing, Jay?

I'm doing great. It's that time of year where football season ends. So, like, I feel as a guy that loves college football, I feel lost. Oh, my God, we don't have games for, like, eight more months. And it was an exciting It's been an unexpected year, obviously. So yeah, other than that, I'm doing great.

I love it. And I have to pick your brain. We're gonna have a conversation on football too. Before I get there though, I love asking my guest about their because that true purpose that they have, the mission in life that they have. You know, if I were to ask you what's your why, you're gonna tell me your family, your kids, or something like that. But then when I say why, why is that important? That sentence usually starts with, well, because. And I care about that. So Jay, Paterno, today, man, what is your because?

Well, it depends on what role I'm involved in. Like as a trustee at Penn State, my because is I look at Penn State as something that's been here before us and something that will go on after us. So even though it's a difficult job in terms of role, it's not a job, although it feels like it sometimes. I want to leave Penn State a better place and continue to protect the things that made Penn State unique in that regard. In terms of writing books, I wanna put things down that people can pick up and learn something from and get something out of it and speak to things, especially with blitzed. You know, I look at college football right now and I say, you know, if people really knew what was going on, there would absolutely be a movement to try and get this thing under control. I know people are frustrated. There are other things I'm involved in. I'm starting to work with some other trustees at other school to talk about You know, what comes next in college football as somebody who wants to help other people lead. I look at leadership in this country and I look at it at the highest levels of what is supposed to look like leadership in this country.

What it is, what we think it is and what it really is are vastly different. So I want to keep speaking to that because, you know, being a leader is not simply lying and never admitting you're wrong. Some of the greatest leaders are people who listen, who admit faults and then correct them. And those things have all been lost. So there's a lot of because is and why. Because of the fact that, you know, I just have all these things going on and they're in different roles.

Yeah. You were definitely one of, if not the, I don't like the term busiest, the most involved person that I know. I mean, when you look at the tentacles that you have and where you reach, man, like you're involved in making impact in a lot of different areas. And I think that's the true definition of you. It's not just being involved. I don't think Jay Paterno does anything where he can't make an impact. Is that true?

I, well, I try. I mean, sometimes people don't want you to make an impact and they have ways to freeze out. And, you know, but, but, but I think the thing is this, it's,

I

am not a perfectionist by the stretch of the imagination, but I would like us to strive towards that as people and help other people. So when I see things that I, there are things I can see around the corner that sometimes other people can't see because of experience or because of people I learn from. I mean, I've been very I've been fortunate in my life to be around incredible people with great lessons that I've picked up and write, I make notes all the time. So if I have the advantage of some information and I can help people or use that to lead people to get to the right thing, I can't sit still and not do it. So that's kind of, it's a curse in some ways, but it's also a blessing in some ways.

I totally agree. Totally agree. And so let's talk about college football. You've been around it your entire life and It's at a different dynamic than it's ever been, regardless of what people thought back in the day when you assumed or thought players were getting paid, well now it's a real thing. And there's not enough, I don't wanna say governance, there's just not enough of something that's there to really wrap our hands around it. I'd love to get your perspective of where college football is today, in particular with the NIL structure.

Well, it's not that there's not enough governance, there is no governance. And part of that is the NCAA, And look, I'm the last guy that wants to make excuses for the NCAA, but they keep losing lawsuits. So they're gun shy in taking a stand on anything. And right, you know, and I understand why, every time they try and stand up for something. And so what is passing for governance in college football right now is simply a reaction to the last ruling by a judge somewhere. The house settlement versus the house versus NCAA settlement is kind of the law of the land right now in terms of revenue sharing. NIL, things like that. But it's all it's going to take is another lawsuit to upset that cart. So we're at a point now where the game is kind of lawless. You know, players can sign a contract with a school and then go in the transfer portal and say, I'm not going to, I'm going to sign with somebody else because they gave me more money. And now the school's forced to sue the player and that's not a place we want to be. So there needs to be in the next year or two, and I'm having conversations, as I mentioned, with a lot of the people trying to figure out Where can we get that kind of governance?

I tell my kids all the time and they get hired to hear me say it. There's two types of people in the world. There's problem people and the solution people. Problem people, anybody can point out problems. It's not hard to find problems and say, Here it is. And that's what we got right now in college football. We've got everybody saying, It's broken. It's not working. It's not this, it's not that. Okay, well, what's your solution? Well, maybe we should have a commissioner. Nobody's really coming forward. I think we're at a point now where we essentially need a constitutional convention. That will involve everybody and just say, you know, these are the rules we've had and they're all patchwork and we keep slapping things on it. We gotta reimagine this thing and the players should be in the room. That's the one thing no one's talking about. You know, we're talking about, we've got a 12-team playoff, do we want a 16 or 24? Well, does anybody think to ask the players, do you want 16? 'Cause I look at a guy like Mendoza the other night, took a beating and under a 16-team playoff, he's got another game to play.

Right.

Like that's not the end of it. He would have a 17th game to play.

Right.

And do the players really want to play 17 games? You know, I don't know. I mean, they, no one knows. So, I mean, there's a lot of things that have to happen. College football definitely needs some massive reform right now.

If Jay Paterno were in charge, this is a huge hypothetical. But what would it look like? Like, could you paint an overview of what, what could simplify this mess for people?

Well, we have to be honest about what we are now. And, and look, I'm an old school guy who loved the amateur model and playing for dear old state or whatever it may may be. But the reality is, is now the Big 10 last year took in $1.1 billion, just the Big 10. This is not, and this is not including March Madness, this is not including all the other stuff. This is $1.1 billion for television rights and media rights for those schools. So it's not an extracurricular activity anymore for kids that students. So we got to be honest about that. You know, when COVID happened, okay, we kept our players on campus. We quarantined them when all the other students weren't here. Admit what we are. B, come up with some solutions. And some of those things would include collective bargaining with players. Because let's be honest, we can say they're not employees, they are. I mean, no one likes to hear that, but how you classify that, what that looks like, give kids an opportunity to come in. And if they want to commit to your school for four years and get a degree, let them go down that path.

If a guy wants to come in and say, I want to play college football, but I want the ability to transfer after a year, say, okay, we'll sign that contract with you. But at the end of that year, guess what? If we don't think you're good enough, we can let you go because you want us. You want to be able to leave us. Then we ought to be able to leave you. And I think you'll see more parents funnel their kids toward the four-year program model. You would still allow, have some mechanisms for transfers and things like that in that model. So I think those are some of the things that have to happen. And I think we've got to redo the calendar. So they're, you know, for example, when the Dolphins had fired their coach, I forget what week it was, maybe in week 14, Mike Tomlin, the Steelers are in a playoff hunt to try and make the playoffs. If the Dolphins had contacted Mike Tomlin before his season was over, There would be hell to pay. They would lose draft picks, they would lose money. We need to bring that same kind of idea to college football in terms of the calendar has to be remade so that coaches don't have to jump during the season.

We don't need to fire a coach in October because we got to get somebody signed before signing day. So all this, it's gonna take an overarching reorganization of literally everything soup to nuts.

I totally agree. Another thing that I think we need to look at is what we call bowl season, right? You know, again, I'm a huge sports nut and the bowls used to matter even, you know, before the, the BCS, right? Like back in Jay's day, the bowl mat, and you guys were in the Fiesta Bowl all the time, right? The Fiesta Bowl or Orange Bowl, right? But, but they mattered even if you were not in the Fiesta or Orange Bowl, it truly mattered. It mattered for the seniors as like their last game. And then you had the red shirt freshmen that might get some play like, It mattered. Bowls haven't mattered in a very long time. I mean, you have players that opt out. I feel bad for bowl sponsors. I feel bad for folks that attend. How do we fix the bowl game scenario as well?

Well, I don't know that we can at this point because the playoff and as so many fan bases have made it all about, you know, playoff or bust. The bowl games you're seeing that have good crowds are ones that are within driving distance. Houston is in the Texas Bowl or whatever it was in Houston. And LSU can drive. And like the Pinstripe Bowl, Penn State fans, we have a ton of Penn State fans in New York City. So there was a ton of them there and they showed up and even though the weather wasn't great, but I think those are the things that matter. But I think your point is a great one. The bowl games used to be, there weren't 50 of them. Six and six teams weren't going to bowl games. My last year at UVA was 1992. We went seven and four, beat Virginia Tech. Pretty soundly and didn't get a bowl game because there weren't that many bowls. Now, that team would be playing on New Year's Day. But I mean, so that's kind of where we're at. So, you know, these things used to be Chamber of Commerce events. The Orange Bowl was like, hey, how do we get like a ridiculous number of people to come down here in that week, those days between Christmas and New Year's?

Well, let's put a bowl game and the team would come down, they'd be there for a week and the fans would come down for four or five. Now it's, you know, teams are getting there three days before the game. It's not really a bowl trip anymore to them. So I think, you know, there's gonna be some bowls that survive, but I think it's gotta shake itself out and probably thin the cull the herd a little bit. But on the flip side for the networks, it's great. They don't care how many people understand. They're getting three hours of, of, and they don't care who opts out. They've got three hours of programming to put on. And the spread of gambling is such that there are always people gonna bet on these things. And the fans are more invested. So I don't think the bowls will go anywhere. Like you said, they're not as, you know, it's not as exciting as it used to be.

No, definitely not. You know, I personally think you figure out how to incorporate bowls into the regular season. I mean, maybe not all of them, right? But you can probably get 15 to 20 bowls that you could do weeks one through four of the regular season. That way you still get that competitive juice. The bowl itself actually matters. I'm not Jay Paterno, so I don't know how to figure that out. But to me, that would almost be a good thing. You're going to guarantee players are going to be there, coaches are going to be there. Those are the things that are hit or miss after December 15th, right? December 15th happens and now you got the holiday bowl or the Myrtle Beach Bowl. And it's like, we really don't know if anybody's going to be able to show up. Yeah.

And I think when, if you sit down and redo the whole calendar, I think some of that will help take care of itself because, you know, you don't, you don't have guys that are in such a rush to get in the portal. And if the transfer portal was in February, not January, you wouldn't have so much pressure to get coaches, jumpings, but we'll see. I mean, that's all gonna sort itself out.

Now I want to take some time and talk about blitz. But before we get into the book, I want to get into the why behind the why of the book. So, so what made you say this book and now?

Well, a couple of things. I, when my dad died about two, two or three years later, I wrote a book about him. And then, it did really well, really well. And people said, what are you gonna write about next? And I was like, okay, well, that's a good sign that people want me to keep writing stuff. At that point, you know, I would sit around people and ask what college footballs were like and I would tell them stories about recruiting or in the course of a game and what's like in headsets, you know, you ought to write a book about that. So I started to write it. And then I realized, you know, some of these recruiting stories, we got to change names to protect the innocent and the not so innocent because there's a lot of things that go on. So I said, you know what? There was a book called Primary Colors, which was ostensibly about the Clinton presidential campaign. And it was written as fiction. I said, you know what? That's what I'll do. I'll use that kind of vehicle where I'll take these real stories and I'll create a nonfiction fiction and I'll set it at Ohio State because I had recruited that state for 17, 18 years and knew a bunch of coaches there over the years and got to know them really well.

So I was very familiar with that program. And I wanted to get away from writing about Penn State so that I, you know, kind of write and challenge myself to write about something that wasn't as familiar. So I wrote a book basically started, it's called Hot Seat and it started with the coach losing the bowl game and the president university shows up at his hotel suite the morning after the game and says, look, the trustees are all over me on this. You've got one year. I mean, I can hold them off for one more year, but you got to win or else. And it takes you through all the ethical dilemmas that he faced. Well, at the end of that, about two, three, two years later, I kept hearing, well, what comes next? What comes next? What comes next for this guy? And then NIL started to happen. I was consulting on NIL with things and all these other things were happening. And I, I said, you know what? What I wrote about before to where the game is now are so dramatically different. I think it's time to write a different, you know, what's happening now and essentially sequel to that book.

So that was kind of the why. And I, and I felt like a couple of things. Number one, I could highlight things like mental health, because when you talk about, everybody thinks, oh, well, everybody's making money. It's great. More pressure on coaches, more pressure on players. So that was part of it. And I thought it would be good to kind of peel back the curtain as to what's going on in college football without naming names. And let people, fans understand what this thing has become. And so that was really the why.

Amazing. And, you know, one of the things that I, I have on my question list for you was the mental health component. And, you know, when I talk about, you know, my clients and VIPs that we discuss your book and that they have copies, I start there because mental health is real. You know, when you talk about from a CEO, CRO, VP of sales, when you talk about that level of people, it is almost like you're being the head coach, the offensive coordinator, the defensive coordinator, because usually with these major corporations, you've got a board of directors and they're looking at reports and they're looking at outcomes, which is just like the president of a university or the athletic director, right? Like winds matter and you've got people making noise. And I thought how you approached mental health and even some strategies there were really important, man. Talk to us about just that proponent. It doesn't even have to be from the book. But why mental health matters and what people should be looking?

Well, I think the thing about it is without this, you cannot be successful. I mean, people, you would say to me, you know, you are a coordinator, you're calm place, 100,000 people in the stadium, there's 12 million people watching on TV and you got 35 seconds to make a decision. And how do you, you know, how do you deal with that pressure? And I would say, look, that's not the pressure. The pressure is, you know, the week up to it and the worries and, and it's year round when you coach. If you're a football coach and your phone rings at 12:30 at night, it's not the academic advisor telling you, Congrats, you got 15 guys in the Dean's List. It's usually, Hey, we got a problem with kids. And there's a difference between the NFL and college. In the NFL, they're grown men. When they leave your building, they're on their own. They're responsible for themselves. When you're a college football coach, whether you want to own that or not, you have a responsibility to be a figure in their lives. The pressure now for a coach is I've got to, my phone is on my hip constantly.

And when the phone rings, I've got to answer it because I've got to, this recruit might be changing their mind or the eight now with NIL and revenue sharing, you've got agents now that you're talking to when you recruit a kid where it was just the parents and you don't know how reputable that person is. And now you've got all these other things. So all these things can become very, almost drown you essentially in all the stress and the pressures because you never There's no pause button because the minute you hit pause, somebody else is calling that guy and offering NIL money. So those are things I thought was important to talk about. And then what we didn't talk, we talked about in the book as well, is everybody thinks with the NIL stuff, it's great these players make money, but they don't talk about the mental health of part of my gig is I've got to post after a game that I drink this energy drink or I drink Gatorade or whatever it may be. And I have a bad game and I go on and post because I'm on social media. If I just threw an interception that costs us the game, there is going to be a whole lot of incoming at me and no universities really prepared guys for that.

They didn't prepare guys to hear from their family. I know you love being at school A, but there's more money at school B. So we're going to yank you to school B. You got to go to school B because our family needs that extra X amount of dollars. So all those things are important and we don't talk about it. It's stigmatized still to this day, especially among men and leaders, men or women, that's almost admitting a weakness rather than being seen as a strength.

Yeah. And the parallel again to sports and leadership is so strong and you've had some crazy cool accolades, like Urban Meyer said it's one of the best books in his lifetime that he's read and Paul Finebaum says, he says it's one of the best sports books ever. Right. How does that make you feel when you hear not just your peers, but, but Legends endorse the storytelling component of the.

Well, it makes you feel good about it because, I mean, one of the things when you write, you want somebody to read it and appreciate it and, you know, and you spend time. It's where I used to sit down and think about, okay, if we run this guy here and put this guy here, and now how do we get somebody open? I look at writing the same way, like I've got to put these words and sentences in positions that make sense and get the reader to move from point A to point B. So I construct it almost like it's playbook where now I've got or a game plan where I've got to get down this charts. When people read it and it resonates, that really, really means a lot to me. But the same token, I'm never satisfied in terms of like, I'll pick up my book every once in a while, read a chapter, hear a chapter. I'm like, oh, why did I do like, It becomes when you're writing it, you're your most dangerous editor because you constantly, and it's great, I let other people read it first, I let them give me feedback and stuff because I'll never stop editing if I'm not careful.

And then it never gets done. With Blitzed and with Hot Seat both, I had a guy who's written 25, 30 books who I'm friends with, and he finally said, Jay, it's done. Just get the damn thing done. Okay, good. It took somebody to kick me in the rear end to finally go, okay, here we go.

Again, there's so many parallels. There's so many great points in this book. You know, you talk a lot about leading with values, which I think is tremendously important. You hit even social topics, right? You talk about race, you talk about income, you talk about a lot of things that are real world. And again, if you're listening, if you're watching blitz, and I'll have, I'll have links in the show notes, in the descriptions, it's a book that no matter who you are, no matter where you are in life, like this book is going to talk to you. And again, Jay, I applaud you for talking about values in this book, because I don't think in society we talk enough about it. I think now, you know, we do a lot of what can I do to go viral or what can I do to make people laugh? And we almost do that at any cost in society, right? You brought that sense of values first in the book. I'd love for you to just spend a moment talking about not just the book, but in life, why values matter to you.

Well, I think, like I said, I've lived a pretty interesting life in a lot of different ways. And there's been some, there were some very, very difficult moments. Difficult times when my dad died and some of the things that happened around that, where you literally are sitting there saying, how am I going to get through this? And the only way you get through adversity is having some values that ground you and anchor you. The only way you don't lose yourself during yourself during times of success, because that's even more dangerous than adversity. Because once you get to a certain position, a friend of mine once said to me, there are two people that rarely hear the truth, pretty women and rich men. Because everybody wants to be around them. And I know that's probably sexist to say it or whatever, but the point being is the reality is success sometimes gets you to lose those values because you think it happens simply because you're just so wonderful and people tell you how great you are and you lose a sense of what's important and you want to stay where you're at at any cost. And that's the important thing in this book is this coach knows that if he doesn't keep winning, he doesn't keep his job.

And that this job is not a birthright, it's not something promised to him. And there's this constant play between the values that he has and cutting corners to stay where he wants to stay. And I think that comes through. And that was one of the things I really wanted to stress is that, you know, it comes down to something John Adams once said. He said, you know, no matter how high or low my estimation in the eyes of the world, my conscience is clear. And that's more important than anything. And that was one of the things my dad, Joe, used to tell us all the time. He said, you know, there's two success and Excellence are different. Success is how the world views you. Excellence is something internal into what, how consistent you are and how you stay true to your values. So to me, without values, and look, it's not just Sports. I see this in politics and everything and business. We're at a point now where it's not about what's right or wrong. It's about how much money can I make, how can I get mine? And you know what? Everybody else be damned.

Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Jay, I know how busy you are and I appreciate, you know, spending some time with us. Before I get you with my rapid fire top five questions, where can people follow and find all the amazing things that you have going on? Because again, we talked about the book, we talk about sports, but you also, do coaching, consulting, you do keynote speaking and I want to make sure that I connect you with everybody that listens and follows the show.

The easiest thing is JV paterno.com it's J-A-Y the letter V paterno.com that's kind of houses everything. I do a football TV show, all those different things that I do. And then on what is it, Twitter X, whatever we're calling it now, I'll probably always call Twitter the day until the day I die just because that's how I started. I started it on it for how many years ago, but it's @JayPaterno. Instagram is @JVpaterno. So those are the best ways to kind of keep keep up with all my contact info is on there and you can get the books there. You can get books on Amazon, you know, wherever you buy books. So there's a lot of different places you can find out what I'm doing and follow me. But I blog on the website mostly about college football, but now that's the off season, I'll do some other things. And so that's where you're gonna find everything I'm up to.

I love it. And I'm going to tell you this, if you are an event organizer and you are looking for a dynamic speaker, reach out to Jay. I promise you, he brings it, he's relevant, he energizes the crowd and there's never a dull moment in his keynote. So Jay, I'm there for you, brother. All right, rapid fire, five questions. You ready?

I hope. I'll find out whether I'm ready or not.

There you go. I did my research, Jay. I don't know if you know this or not. You have a COVID year of eligibility left. You have one more. Can you, can you still sling it?

Not, not well enough to be, and for that, anybody's going to pick me up off the COVID waiver wire.

I don't know. There, there might be a school or two that needs you after I see all this movement that's going on. Your favorite Penn State player of all time is.

Well, if you go all the way back to when I was five, John Cappelletti won the Heisman Trophy when I was five. Years old. And when I was five, I would write him notes. I couldn't even spell his name. I just put 222 because that was his number. So my dad would take these notes. So after he won the Heisman Trophy, he signed a black and white photo. That photo's been in every office. I've taken it with me to every office that I've worked in. But, I mean, if I, other than that, like, if I said the best favorite guy ever coach, I don't want to touch that because somebody will see this, they will call me and go, wait a minute.

But what?

I'm chopped liver, you know, like, oh. If I say Michael Robinson, Daryl Clark will call me. If I say Daryl Clark, Michael Robinson or Zach Mills or Spice Adams will call me and say, wait a minute, I should be your favorite player. You recruited me out of Detroit, so I'm sure I'll hear from somebody if I name one.

I heard Mike Robb first, so we're going with Mike Robinson. Perfect.

Jeez.

Perfect.

So I'm in trouble now.

No, no, no, no.

What's the best choice? I mean, you talk about a guy that was you talk about a great leader. I mean, he's one of the great leaders I've ever been around.

Mike Robb was that guy. And that leads to this next question. So what's one lesson that coaching taught you in leadership outside of coaching?

I think this is, is, you know, a lot of leaders want to impress everybody with what they know. Okay. And when you coach, it's not what you know, it's what they know. And so you have to constantly understand that everybody learns differently. Like Mike Robinson processed the game plan differently than somebody else. And, you know, and you had to have the ability to reach people where they are in terms of how you explain things and listen to them because they'll give you feedback. And I think the other thing, too, is the most important thing about coaching is you gotta hold people accountable, including yourself. And you got to be able to hear the truth and tell the truth because the minute you don't, and I think we underestimate that young people want to hear the truth. Anymore. We've gotten to the point where we got to tell them everything they want so we can keep them in the NIL world rather than saying, this is the standard. We know you can meet it. We're going to help you meet it. You're not there yet. And I think you're seeing that a guy like Signetti in Indiana who is not afraid to tell the truth to his players and they are responding to that.

And I think that's, those are things that in coaching are important and in leadership are important.

Totally agree. Totally agree. All right. The greatest game that you've witnessed in college football?

Well, I think the Fiesta Bowl in 1986, when we beat Miami for National Championship, was probably the greatest game because it was just, and to this day, it still is the highest Nielsen rating of any college football game in history to this day by a wide margin because it truly became this bigger than the sport event. And it was on a Friday night. It was January the 2nd. A lot of things went on, but there's been so many, so many games other than that, but that was, That was one that was part of that was just to this day, and the game was never more than a one score game. So one play, one missed tackle, and again, you lose, and for both teams. And so, I mean, it was in the intensity, you know, I was, that was my freshman year, I was on the team, and the pregame warm up. I mean, the vitriol, I mean, it was literally, I mean, when you saw those teams hit each other, it was true dislike. And I remember during COVID NBC Sports Network replayed it.

Yeah.

And so I made my son watch it and his friends are watching, they're texting him and they're going, oh my God, there's like 52 targeting calls and it's the second quarter. Like none of these hits would be allowed now. Yeah, I mean, these guys hated each other.

It was bad. It was bad. This wasn't a setup. I'm actually glad that you said that because my last question for you was going to be, I remember the hoopla and Jerome Brown talked about it, right? The pregame festivities the day before, and there was this supposedly a dinner and both teams were there and maybe Jerome Brown got up and said something and some folks walked out. Is there truth in that story?

Absolutely. So what these bowls would do is they would do events and they would bring people in because the sponsors wanted, they had people that wanted to be around. And you would sit at a table with them. With some people, and this was a big steak fry at this place called Rawhide, which was like a fake ghost town outside of it. So it was all country, you know, kind of a western type thing. And so both teams were supposed to get up and tell jokes or rap or sing or whatever. So our guys got up and they made some jokes about Jimmy Johnson's hair because it didn't move and some other things. And Jerome Brown later said, well, they said some things that offended us. Well, they had camo. They got off the plane and fatigued. And talk about we're here for a war. And they had their sweats on. So they all ripped off their sweats and they had the camo on. And Jerome, I'll never forget it was maybe 20 feet in front of me, he said, the Japanese sit down with the Americans before they bomb Pearl Harbor. Hell no, we're out of here.

They left before dinner, okay? And as they're walking out, one of our guys goes up on the mic and said, I think the Japanese lost that war, which was a great line. But what the Miami guys didn't realize was they then, because there was media there and they said, We hate country western, we don't want to be there. And the Fiesta Bowl had brought in a lot of college aged girls to be at this event too, many of which were very friendly. So I'm like, okay, you guys want to storm out?

We're good.

It's fine. More people for us to talk to. The funny thing is, after they said all the stuff about we you know, he hate country western. Every time we went out to dinner and had our Penn State football stuff on, people would come over to us and say, are you with the team? Yeah, I live here in Phoenix. I hope you beat the hell out of them. Like they turned the whole community against them. And that was so it was all very real. And it just kind of ratcheted up the whole thing. And that made it that's one of the reasons I think it was so widely watched was because it did become this bigger than life. Is there going to be a fight on the field? All these things. It was just this tension.

Yeah. Amazing, man. Well, Jay, I'm honored to spend time with you. I could talk to you and pick your brain forever, but I probably can't afford your consulting services, so I won't do that.

There's not, I'm not sure there's that much brain to pick at my age.

No, man, but just honored that you spent some time on the show. I'm gonna send links to everything that you have in the show notes, the descriptions, and on social. Again, if you're watching or listening, go give Jay a follow. Definitely go get that book. And here's what I'm gonna do, Jay, because I believe in the book this much. I've already given it to some clients. I'm gonna buy 30 copies. And the first 30 people that message me, and I don't care if it's Instagram, LinkedIn, text me, whatever, the word blitz, I'm gonna give you a copy of Jay's book.

Sounds good. I hope they enjoy it.

They definitely better. How about that? They definitely better. Jay, I appreciate you, brother.

Thanks, Mick. I really appreciate it.

And for all the viewers and listeners, remember, your because is your superpower. Go unleash. That's another powerful conversation on Mick Unplugged. If this episode moved you, and I'm sure it did, follow the show wherever you listen, share it with someone who needs that spark, and leave a review so more people can find there because I'm Rudy Rush. And until next time, stay driven, stay focused, and stay Unplugged.