Transcript of 2 | The Downward Spiral

Lords of Death is released weekly, every Monday, and brought to you absolutely free. But if you want an exclusive ad-free binge, sign up for Tenderfoot Plus. Check out the show notes for the link to subscribe.

You're listening to Lords of Death, a production of Tenderfoot TV in Association with Odyssey. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone, including themes of murder and sexual violence. Listener discretion is advised.

Look at you.

Oh, my goodness. You guys were so little. I just haven't seen this in a long time, so I wanted to see it.

That's my mom, Kari. Flipping through a photo album we found in that box she gave me a few years ago.

I collected all these things, newspaper clippings and court documents, everything. All those memories, all those photos, and put them in the back of a closet and just left it.

After she buried the box in my grandparents' basement, we didn't talk about Mick and Tim for over a decade. During that time, I tried to bury it away, too, but the unanswered questions about what happened have always stuck with me. Now seeing these photos has brought it to the forefront. Flipping through the album, she pauses on a picture of us taking at Triangle Park.

This was 1995. Right before.

It's a picture Mikt took of me, my mom, and my sister enjoying a day at the park. But if you look closely in the background, you can see the shelter where Mick and Tim would leave Cindy's lifeless body just weeks later. I've always struggled to understand how this fun-loving, care-free guy could go from playing with me and my sister on a jungle gym to murdering an innocent woman in a picnic shelter a few yards away.

The truth is, nobody knows what happened except Mick and Tim. They're the only two people on this planet that know 100% for sure what happened that night.

Now, all these years later, I'm ready to know the full story. From Tenderfoot TV, I'm Thrasher Banks. This is Lord of Death.

Now, let's dive back into what happened the morning after the murder on June sixth, 1995.

I knew that the best thing that I could do to to protect my children was to get them out of the house. So the next day, early in the morning, Tim agreed to let me call my sister, who lived two doors down, and the kids were sent to stay with her. I just told her that we were arguing, and I just didn't want the kids in the house. And my children were never inside that house again after that day. So after my sister got the kids, we just laid around and tried to figure out what to do. And then the noon news came on. It all begins with the grim murder of Cindy Cozat in Triangle Park. The 29-year-old was shot twice, killed and left for dead in a park shelter. The police were asking for help with any witnesses. Anyone saw or heard anything. And I remember just feeling so helpless because I knew maybe not exactly what had happened or how she had ended up dead at that point, but I knew who was involved with her death, and I couldn't do anything to get that information to the police because I was so scared and it felt so threatened myself at that point.

I remember feeling so helpless watching the news, especially knowing that I had evidence in my home that connected Mick and Tim to the murder in the park.

Cindy's shorts were still at the house, along with Tim's bloodstained clothing that he put in the washing machine shortly after arriving home the night before.

After seeing the news story, Mick and Tim decided that they needed to get rid of the evidence being the shorts that I had found in the vehicle. I don't know why Mick agreed to do it, but Mick took the shorts outside and put them in the grill and use charcoal lighter fluid and set them on fire.

The only thing I was technically guilty of was burning the shorts. I figured I could at least do that, keep him happy because he was very agitated. But when I burnt his shorts, it seemed calming him down. You know what I mean? I was happy with that.

Even though Mick burned the shorts, my mom was still in a dangerous situation.

During that time, it was like I was being held hostage. I couldn't do anything without Tim being right there, really. He was so afraid that I was going to call the police. I couldn't use the restroom without him standing right at the door. He was very paranoid. Mick and I began to develop a plan because we both wanted Tim gone, and we knew the only way that could happen is if Mick somehow went with him. So we developed a plan that they would take my car and go to Cambridge just to get away And I had promised that I would not call the police. I had Mick's bag packed. I wrote little notes and put him in the pockets of his jeans so that while he was gone, he would have a little note from me every day.

We agree we're going to take him back to Cambridge. Me and Kerry, we talked about it. We told Ken, Keep going back to Cambridge, pal. We're not going to go far as this.

But Mick and Tim never made it to Cambridge. Instead, something happened that night to send them on a downward spiral. It all started with a call out of the blue from a man named Jamie Phipps.

I think it was maybe two nights later, Jamie Phipps, he kept calling that night, wanted to talk to Kerry. I'm like, Who are you? He got rude. He said some foul stuff about Carrie that hung up. Maybe five or 10 minutes later, he called back again. This time, he called me out. I was already upset, mad anyway, about everything that went down. He said something nasty again about Carrie. That didn't.

Jamie was a friend of my aunt, Tammy. Nick claims that Jamie kept calling the house that night and saying nasty things about my mom. But seeing as they had never even met Jamie, I wonder if this all could have been a big misunderstanding. But by the time my aunt, Tammy, tried to intervene, it was too late to diffuse the situation.

It ended up being a fight on the phone between Jamie and Mick. Jamie is very persistent. He's not the person to back down. And the next thing I know, Jamie's saying, I'm right here. Bring it on, and hung up. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, what did you do? I called Carrie back, and I was like, Please stop them. She's like, They're already gone.

Instead of sticking to the plan and fleeing to Cambridge, Mick and Tim decided to drive to Tammy's apartment in Centerville to confront Jamie.

Tim wanted to bring his gun. I said, No. We didn't take no guns. He knew what was up. How is it going to go over and kick a dude's ass? That's all I was going to do. It wasn't until we got to Centerville, Tim reached in with my gun. I had one fucking bullet in it. I said, What you doing, man? I was put down, I don't know why. I just put it right there and forgot all about it. And I told Tim, leave his gun in the car.

nick claims that he didn't know Tim brought the guns until they got to the exit ramp near my aunt's apartment. When they arrived, nick stuck his gun in between the driver's seat and the center console. Tim put his 357 oven under the passenger side seat.

Why would you risk getting arrested over somebody that none of us had ever even met in person before? And then to take a murder weapon with you, knowing you have the potential to get arrested, makes no sense.

I had calmed Jamie down and made him go to bed. But when the knock came on the door, he was at the door before I could even stop him. When Jamie stepped out the door, Mick was standing up against the wall and hit him in the back of the head with a tire iron. Jamie went down on one knee. A fight exploded, and I'm standing there screaming, Stop, stop, stop, trying to get in the middle of him. So what's going through my mind is, I love both these guys. I need to get them away from each other because I knew their past, what they were capable of. And I didn't want either one of hurt. And then Tim starts to go and fight, too. I back Tim up halfway down the sidewalk, and he's talking to me, and he's saying, You need to get in the house. You need to go in the house. And he started walking me towards my front door. I noticed he has this huge knife stuck down the back of his pants. And I'm like, I'm not going in the house. This isn't going to happen. You guys aren't going to double team He gets me in the house, and he goes back outside and goes towards the car.

I'm immediately back out of the house. The next thing I know, police are swarming in. They searched the car, and They found a gun, and they were arrested.

An officer on the scene saw Mick's handgun on the driver's seat of my mom's Ford escort. Mick, Tim, and Jamie were patted down for weapons and placed in separate squad cars. Tim had 13 hollow Point shells in his pocket, a two-inch knife in his boot, a four-inch knife on his waist, and two more knives in his pocket. During the search of the vehicle, police but skated Tim's fully loaded Taurus 357 Magnum, the same gun that killed Cindy Cozad just two nights before.

But I was so relieved when they got arrested. I was so relieved. It was like, Okay, this is going to be over. But that was just the beginning. After Tim and Mick were arrested in Centerville, I had the perfect opportunity to go through all loved him's belongings. I was just looking for anything, anything that could try to help me make sense of what had happened. So I'm going through his belongings and I find a metal box. It's a weird little box. It has a a key to it, but the key's not there. So I'm shaking it. I could hear that there's stuff in there. No matter what I tried, I could not get the box open. I found buttons that looked like they came off of women's clothing. I have no idea where they came from. They didn't come off my clothing. They were in this little fake velvet bag. I also found a Social Security card in his belongings with the name Mary Bell on it. Then I found a leather strap, a necklace. It was tied together it like it would be a necklace. And there was this little tiny piece of paper balled up and tied onto it.

It's real tiny, like the size of a small stone that would be on a necklace. So I untie it and I open the paper, and it has my full name and my Social security number on it in Tim's belongings. I have no idea why he had it, how he had that information. He must have gone through my purse at some point, but he had it.

What did you think the other items were?

Tokens of victims, things that were kept. Because he had Cindy's shorts, it just only made sense to me that he was one of these killers that kept something from their victim.

In that moment, you thought he was...

A serial killer. It was very scary because Mick wasn't there. Mick was in jail, too. So I'm sitting here learning all of these things on my own by myself.

After this, she found a stack of letters from Tim's friend, Jim, Tim, who served time with him and Mick. At that point, Jim was still in prison, but stayed in close contact with Tim.

They would refer to each other as partners, not friends, not brothers, like a lot of guys do. Jim was Tim's partner. I don't think that he meant that in a sexual way. I think that he meant that in a criminal way. So when I found the letters, I was very much in shock by the things that I read. I can't remember specifics, but what I can tell you is the letters were written like stories. And from what I could put together, not having the letters that Tim had written to Jim, it seemed like one of them would start the story and the other one would just continue it. They were talking about a judge in Cambridge that they were going to kidnap him and his family and take them to this barn. And it described having objects to torture them with. And he was going to have the judge watch him rape and kill his wife and daughter, and then he was going to kill the judge. But they're just two little scrawny men. But what makes them so scary is their emptyness, their lack of conscience. People like that you know are capable of doing anything.

And that's where the fear comes in. I I think reading those letters, I realized just how dangerous the situation was that I had put us in. My first reaction was just being thankful to be alive and that myself and my kids were never harmed since I had let a man like that stay in our home.

The police hadn't connected the dots that Mick and Tim were involved in Cindy's murder. The only person who knew anything was my mom.

No one knew anything. All I had to do was just be quiet. But I couldn't do that. Why not? Because Tim needed to pay for what he did. And unfortunately, that meant I had no choice but to sacrifice Mick with him. I couldn't let Tim get away with what he had done. Believe me, Mick and I had conversations about it. And Mick would I've rathered us be safe and Tim be locked up than to have his own freedom. Does that sound like a cold-blooded murder to you?

Later that day, she learned that Mick was facing a minimum of three years behind bars for possessing a firearms when he was arrested. Meanwhile, Tim was said to be released and planned on returning to the house.

It was very scary, and it's like, I have to do it now to make sure he never comes back to this house again. Not just because of what he had done to Cindy, but if he would have still been free, who knows how many more people would have died? I probably would have ended up dead. If Tim had not gone to prison, there's no doubt in my mind, I would have ended up dead.

So she called her friend who lived across the street and asked for help.

I told her that I needed help, and I needed her to call the police because I was still very afraid of Tim, even though he was in jail, and I didn't want to be the one to make the phone call. She called the police Department and told them that the guy that was arrested in Centerville was the person who had killed the girl in Triangle Park. I told her to make sure that she tells them to run ballistics on the gun that was taken from him that night because that was the murder weapon.

The following morning, investigators confirmed that Tim's 357 was the gun that killed Cindy Cozad. When detectives and brothers, Wade and Tom Lawson, showed up at our house. My mom did something surprising. When the Lawsons first show up, you pretended like you didn't know anything about the murder.

Because I was still scared. I thought, If Tim thinks that I didn't have anything to do with this, I might be okay. Fear will make you do and say things that you don't want to do and say.

Detectives Wade and Tom Lawson told her that they knew her was involved in the murder, and that if she didn't cooperate, Children's Services could take me and my sister away. After this, she told them the version of the story that Mick told her, that he accidentally shot Cindy in the car, and that they carried her to the shelter and positioned her with her underwear around her ankles. But the crime scene told a different story. Apart from the lack of blood in the Ford escort, Cindy wasn't found with her underwear around her under her ankles. Later that day, over a dozen police officers showed up to search the house.

They showed up with search warrants to search the house in the car. I was not allowed to be inside the house while they were searching. They literally tore the house upside down, dumped my purse out, and just scattered everything all over the place. The house was trash when we went back in. They talked to me, and I told them that Mick had burnt the shorts, and Tim had washed his clothes, but I was able to recover the clothes and give them to them.

In Tim's room, they found he had packed his belongings and was preparing to flee the city before his arrest in Centerville. In his bags, they found five boxes of spent 357 shell casings, two ammunition belts fully loaded with shotgun shells, a pair of Reeboks with Cindy Cozad's blood on them, a pipe bomb, a book on bomb making, and additional bomb making supplies. In the kitchen, they found another pipe bomb, and more spent 357 casings. In the laundry room, they found Tim's tank top, which also had Cindy Cozad's blood on it.

Imagine the guilt I've lived with because I drove him there to pick that weapon up. Imagine the guilt because I gave them my car keys that night. It's been a very heavy burden for a lot of years, not just because Cindy Cozad died, but because of what I put my family through, what I put my kids through, what I put myself through, scars that will never heal. I didn't have to give them my keys. I didn't have to let Tim live with us. I made all the wrong choices that led up to the night of Cindy's murder.

Seated beside me is James McQuarter. I'd like to conduct an interview with James in regards to a homicide that occurred this past Tuesday. A Cindy Kozak was found be seized in a Shelter Triangle Park.

After the house was searched, nick and Tim were taken to the Homicide Bureau in downtown Dayton. Nick agreed to waive his Miranda rights to speak with Detectives Wade and Tom Lawson. You'll notice his account is different than the version he told my mom on the night of the murder. The VHS tape's quality is degraded, so I'll recap as we go along.

What happened after the cookout was over? What did you and Tim do? Tim wanted to go after a nurse, sick or pack. I said, Let's go. That's cool. Did either you or Tim have a gun with you when you left? Tim had one, 357. 357? Whose gun is that? His. And then it's his gun? Yeah. Right before I got to UDF, Tim said, Let's see if there's any women out through here. I said, All right, no problem. He likes to look. Well, Tim seeing a blonde he liked. He says, Let's talk to this one, please. Let's talk to this one. I said, All right. She goes, There's been too many murders in this area. I ain't getting in like that. Then Tim sees a few girls on this side of the street. Tim said, I want to talk to her. I want to talk to her. She comes up to the car, emotionally getting the car. She did. She got in. So you pulled in by Triangle Park? Yeah. And they went into a little concrete shelter place. They were in there. I said, Five minutes, if that. Then I decided to get out and walk in there.

Got up there. I heard the talk, and I figured, Yeah, they're done. I was walking up to them. I said, Is it all right? He said, Yeah, come on. And by this time, she had her shorts off, and her shirt was put around her head. I walked over to the side table and sat, was listening them to him, and then she wanted the money. He said, I'll give it to you.

In this version of Mick's story, he was in the shelter when Tim and Cindy started arguing over money. Then, Mick lowers his head and starts crying.

It turns soft. Well, that's all right. You can just tell us what happened. I know it's not... Tell us what happened. Well, at that point, It's okay. That's so... He fucking shot her. Did he? You said he took her before he shot her. He said, I ain't giving you the money. Then he shot her with blank range. What part of her body or head did he shoot her? It was up high. It had to be the head. Now, did she fall down at that time? What did she do? She was on the table. She hit the table. Still sitting in the same position? Did you jump up? I know. Yeah, jumped up, dodged off to the backside of the building. Then when I heard another shot go off. Did you see what he was doing when you heard the next shot? He was off to the side of where I was at this time now. And he had her like this. How was he holding her? By what? Her hair looked like, and he's left-handed. Had the gun to his left hand. Yeah, and it fired one more time. What happened then? Well, I was like, get ready to fucking leave.

What now? After he fired that shot, did she fall back on the table or did she fall? He pushed her off. Okay. After he fired, he just dropped her. Did she Is he on the floor? Yeah. On her stomach, side or back? What position? She was facing up. Okay. Was she moving? No. She was dead. Did she say anything after he shot her that time? What did he say to you? I can't lie. I can't tell him I did this. I'm sorry, I did shoot him. Well, I know it may look like that. That's how you went. That's why I didn't shoot. He wanted me, too. They threatened me. He threatened the fuck out. He said, You know what's going to happen if you don't.

Before the tape was rolling, nick told other versions of the story. First, he said he was waiting by the car when he heard the gunshots, but later changed the story and said he was in the shelter when Tim shot Cindy. Nick even admitted to shooting Cindy once while she was on the floor. However, he later recanted that version of the story.

You told me just a few minutes ago, back there in the room, that you got- I did, yeah, but you told me what? You kept saying, That ain't what happened. I kept trying to tell you, That ain't what happened. I was asking you what happened. I told you, but you said, That ain't what happened. I believe you shot her at the lair. I told you, I thought that, and I do. I believe you shot her.

At this point in the tape, Wade Lawson says he believes Mick participated in the shooting, which Mick denies.

I didn't know. I didn't shoot her. I all I wanted to do was get out of there. I had no idea what was going to happen. When it did, it blew me away. Why you told me in the other room here is that you shot her while she was on the floor. That you recall that he did tell me that you shot her while. In fact, we went into the where Tim was, and you told him that you had told me that both you and him had shot her. Do you recall that?

The investigator asks if Mick recalls earlier when he admitted to shooting Cindy with Tim. Mick doesn't address the moment the investigator alleges, but he reiterates that he did not shoot Cindy.

I didn't. I'm sorry. Okay. I just... I just used to say, Well, look, I know you had to shot her, but I swear I didn't shoot her, man. I can't say I shot her. I didn't shoot her. I didn't. I didn't fire one shot. I may not be no angel, but I did not shoot that girl. I got a woman I love very much and two kids that he ain't mad, but I love them.

When I found this VHS tape in the box, it wasn't the first time I'd seen the interview. After the murder, we moved into my grandparents' house, and my sister and I would sleep in my mom's room. Late at night, when she thought we were both asleep, she'd watch it over and over. I just pretended that I was asleep because, to be honest, I missed Mick, and I wanted him to be innocent of this crime. I didn't want to believe that Mick was capable of murdering someone in cold blood, the man who took care of me when I had chicken pox, even though I infected him with it, too. So this version of the story where Mick was a bystander who was coerced to participate was what I always believed. But when my mom gave me in the box about 10 years ago, I had to confront the reality that Tim's account of the murder is entirely different than Mick's. Here's what Tim told Detectives Wade and Tom Lawson. Nick was driving Kerry's Ford Escort. We picked up a prostitute on Main Street, and I got a blowjob from her while we were in the car parked in a parking lot.

I paid her $20. Then I drove the car and nick got in the back seat with her. Mick directed me to the park where he and the girl got out and walked to the shelter house to have sex. I stayed in the car for a few minutes. Then I walked to the shelter. They were having sex. Mick was behind the girl, doggy style. I wanted to have sex with her again. She agreed to have sex with me again, and I went back to the car. A few minutes later, I hear a shot. I get out of the car and go to the shelter. On the way there, I hear a second shot. I could see that Mick is behind her the second time he shoots her. She falls back on the floor and is stretched out face up when I get there. Mick hands me the gun, a 357 Mag Taurus, which belongs to me. I shoot her one time while she's on the floor. Don't know where I hit her. We went back to the car. I still had the gun. Mick had her red shorts. Mick took the money I'd given her and gave you my $20 back.

I loaned Mick $15 so he could have sex with her. He kept that money and bought beer with it. As you can hear, Tim's account of the murder is totally different from Mick's. Tim paints Mick as the aggressor. In fact, in Tim's account, he's not even next to Mick when he allegedly shoots Cindy the first time. Regardless of these discrepancies, after both of their statements were recorded, Mick and Tim were in charge with the murder of Cindy Cozad. The next day, news about Mick and Tim's arrest hit the local media. For years, I thought the news footage was lost at time. But one day, I put on a VHS tape I found in the box. I initially thought it was just old episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation. My dad recorded off TV. But a few minutes into the tape, my mom had recorded the news footage over the episode.

Police arrested Jim McCarter from Timothy Tarroll for the Triangle Park murder. And the two are brought to jail. Mccarter blames Tarroll. I didn't do it. Right there's the mother of Tim. It's right there.

In the clip, the Lawsons are escorting Mick and Tim to jail. Mick looks right at the press gathering and blames Tim for the murder, stating, Right there's the motherfucker who did it.

This This afternoon, McCarter called to news to tell us why he says, Terrill be charged, but that he, McCarter, is innocent. Mccarter says he was with Terrill when he picked up Cindy Cozat earlier this week, and in his words, Terrill lost control. All the blue, it just comes out. One shot, then two shots.

I'm going to go to the car and leave.

As I leave, then I hear another shot. That's three total shots. He just looked at it and said, You know what's good for you? Nobody's going to know about this. It's a medical claim like that.

Other than the detective's claim that Mick confessed to shooting Cindy before the tape was rolling, this is the version of the story Mick has stuck to since 1995.

I mean, the evidence It didn't stay as at all. The blood was on him, everything. Nothing was on me. Believe it or not, I was too far from it. I mean, I was there at the entrance, sitting at the end of the table. That's where I was at. It was about a good five or six feet away. That's why there's no blood on me.

When we spoke about it a few years ago, he expressed regret about his decisions that night.

That turned out to be the worst night of my life. Carrie's life. And in your life and your sister's life, too. I was little, but it It really affected you. It really affected Carrie. That's what tore me up. I blame myself so much for that. I wish to hell I never gave it to him on that. I made a really dumb decision that night picking her up for him. I should have said just no and came back. Still this day, I don't know why he did that. He would never tell me. I had no idea that this was going to go down like it did. I'd give anything to replay it over because it would not have happened. I'm so sorry that She had to go through this. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. I'm so sorry your sister had to go through this. And it's not fair to know you all.

Do you think that nick would kill someone, kill a woman for no reason?

I do not. I think that the only reason Mick would have fired a shot would be if he thought she was already dead and he was doing it to save us. He did what he had to do so that he felt like we were safe. That's the only way it makes sense to me, knowing Mick the way that we knew Mick. It wouldn't be because he wanted to be in Tim's Little Lords of Death Gang. It would be to save himself so he could make sure we were okay.

Despite seeing Tim arrested in center Will. My aunt, Tammy, doesn't believe he killed Cindy either.

I didn't believe the things they were saying about Mick. I didn't believe that he could ever do what they were saying he did. And I still don't believe that Mick did what he was accused of doing. I don't think anybody will ever know what really happened because I don't think Tim will ever tell. I think he'll take it to his grave.

I was trying to figure out, didn't nick fire one of those shots?

Was he forced to? Because I don't think Mick would have done it otherwise. I think he was in a situation that he didn't know how to get out of. And the only way to save his life, your life, your sister's life, and Mary's life was to do what Tim was telling him to do. I think he did it to protect you guys.

Like a sacrifice.

Yes. His life for yours.

But is this just a fantasy we tell ourselves because we don't want to admit that someone we all loved was capable of murder? Is it easier to just paint Tim as the villain?

It's hard to be unbiased when you're so close to the situation because I would defend the fact that I do not believe that Mick had anything to do with Cindy Cozad's death till the day I die. Is that because of facts or is it because part of me will always love Mick?

Setting aside her bias, Mick's role in the murder is unclear. And ever since she gave me the box, I've been back and forth on what I believe happened. Even though I tried to look at the situation objectively, I'll admit that it's hard to overlook those stories about Tim, like the story about taking someone's soul to join the lords of Death. And in the days following the murder, more details about Tim's past came to light.

A few days after Mick and Tim were arrested, Arnold Van Horn from Guernsey County showed up at my door. He told me that they were looking for some potential evidence that they thought might be in my possession. Specifically, they were looking for a black leather jacket and a sold off shot gun.

Detective Arnold Van Horn from the Guernsey County Sheriff's Department had traveled to Dayton searching for evidence. But to my mom's surprise, it had nothing to do with Cindy's murder. Van Horn was investigating several unsolved murders from Guernsey County, where Tim lived before moving to Dayton. And he had reason to believe that evidence relating to those cases was in our house on Row Avenue.

Lords of Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV in Association with Odyssey.

Your host is Thrasher Banks. The show is written, produced, and edited by Thrasher Banks, with additional writing by Meredith Studman and Dennis Cooper. Produced by Meredith Steadman and Dennis Cooper. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Consulting producer and video production by George Miller. Supervising producer is Tracey Kaplan. Artwork by Byron McCoy. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set, with additional music by Thrasher Banks. Mixed by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media & Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks to Tori Ross, Kaitlyn Kibosky, and Thrasher's mom, Kari. For more podcasts like Lords of Death, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app. Or visit us at tenderfoot. Tv. Thanks for listening.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Lords of Death. This series is released weekly, absolutely free. But if you want an exclusive ad-free bench, sign up for Tenderfoot Plus. Check out the show notes for the link to subscribe.