Transcript of Do it for Love ft. Laura Wasser

Do you ever not believe in love?

I still believe in love. I just believe that there's dicks out there.

I have times with Tristan, I want to fucking murder him, but my children would never know that. Right. And that is what I think being a responsible adult is. I think you're always known for your style and your fashion.

I definitely don't dress or work out to get a picture taken of me.

So let's do it to get laid. Let's do it to get laid. Yes, let's do it to get laid. Let's do it to get I believe. Welcome to Chloe and Wonderland. This is the podcast for real and raw conversations that you won't want to miss. Sweet. What a pro. Nice work. What's your name? Chloe.

I know how to read. I'm feeling myself. I'm really good.

I'm so excited to have you here. Laura Wasser. You have been, I feel like every one of my siblings, divorce lawyer or family law lawyer. And your dad, I don't know which parent your dad represented. I think it's my mom or my dad, which I don't know.

I think it might have been maybe your dad with your mom and then your mom with Bruce.

Oh, my God.

I think. I'm not sure. Twice. Yes, we're very inter.

We're very interconnected, which is amazing. But not only are you the best family law attorney that there is, but I just feel like when people hear your name, you have this title, the Diso Queen, which I love any queen title. But also, I just feel people don't know enough about- The softer side. The softer side of you. And I think that people just probably assume that you love divorce. And I don't know, just because you fight for that. But I know you're... I know that you're such an advocate for love. And I just feel like I want people to get to know a different side of you.

Well, that's why I came. I mean, I feel like, look, you can't be a divorce attorney without having something attributed to you. And a lot of people are like, well, you're pitbull, shark. I don't think that's how I am. I think it's more of a problem solving gene that I have that my dad has as well. And so we want to try to help people. By the time they come to me, they're already getting divorced. I'm not like a divorce monger. In fact, as you know, there have been circumstances where I've said, Don't get divorced. Let's see how this plays out. Let's see if we can work it. We do a lot of prenuptial agreements, which are people getting together and and hopefully keeping their relationship communicative and evolving. So, yeah, no, it's not just all about divorce and hate and misery.

No, you've been someone for me, you're always firm, even with Lamar, you've always been someone that's like, let's try to work this out privately, try to work it out before going to court. And in a way, you're almost like a family therapist.

Sometimes. I mean, I'm not qualified to be a family therapist, but my main goal is to keep people out of court. So if you can work it out yourself as opposed to letting someone someone who you don't know, who doesn't know you, who doesn't know your kids, has a very crowded court docket, lots of people trying to get their attention and get relief, wouldn't it be better if you guys worked it out? And so we've done that a lot.

Yes, we've done that. I feel like for a bunch of my sisters, we've done that a lot. But I want you to take me back. I know that your dad has been... He was before you. Probably, I feel like, respectfully, you've surpassed him.

I hope he never sees this.

Oh, my God. She's going to kill me. But We could duke it out in the desert. But before you, would you say you took over his law firm? Yeah. Before you, though, he was this incredible lawyer, had a huge name for himself, just like you do. Times were different. We didn't have social media and all of that. But how did you get started? I also know that your father wasn't that keen on having you join the family business. If you could tell that story.

My dad First of all, I didn't want to join the family business. Growing up, my initials are law, Laura Allison Wasser, which I always thought was so lame, and I was like, God, and I bought it. But anyway, when I was in my 40s, I embraced it until now. I love it. And so now it's all monograms and everything. But I didn't think I was going to be a lawyer, and I certainly did not think I was going to be a family law attorney. Then in my second year of law school, I got married. I was young, I was 25. Then after my third year, I graduated and took the bar. My husband at the time, and I looked at each other and we were like, What were we thinking? We had a great wedding. It was 200 people at the Bel Air Hotel and 10 bridesmaids, 10 grooms. I mean, I do. I love love. I love a good wedding. It was gorgeous. But we were like, This probably wasn't a great idea. So I went to my dad and I was like, Look, we're going to split up. He's like, No more weddings.

I will not pay for another wedding. And I was like, Okay. So I've never had another wedding. But I also said, I'm paying the rent on this house in Laurel Canyon, and I have a dog, and I have a car payment. Can I come work for you, dad, while I wait for my results from the bar exam and get a real job? And he's like, No. No nepotism. No nepotism. And I'm like, Dad, please. I'm working for a nonprofit right now. I need help. Please let me. And he's like, Fine, you can work here while you wait for your results. Well, I worked there, and I was really good at it, and I liked it. And because I grew up in LA, and I knew a lot of people at the time that were working assistance desk at the agencies, they were young lawyers at the entertainment law firms, business managers, There's kids of people who were in the industry. I had clients. And so he was like, my partner said, if you want to stay, you can stay. And I still was like, I don't want to-Not my partner said. Yeah. So I worked there.

They were so much harder on me than they were on anybody else. But I really started to like it because, like I said, I like the idea of problem solving. And I can usually now, and even then a little bit, see what the pressure points were, who cared more about custody, who cared more about money, what the fears are. And it's interesting, 30 years that I've been doing this now, it doesn't matter how much money you have, and it doesn't matter how famous you are, what your occupation is. People have the same fears and anxieties. Who am I going to spend my summer vacation with? Are my kids going to be okay when they're at his house? He's never put them to bed or bathed them. What if she starts dating somebody else that makes more money than me and my kids fall in love with him more than me? All of these things are the concerns people have. And so you get to know those things, and then you adjust them to whatever makes sense. Who's going to go to the Labor Day Company picnic with me, or who's going to walk the red carpet at the Oscars with me?

Whatever it is, that's your level of anxiety and trying to get people through that, figure out the numbers. The law is not that complicated. So you don't have to be a rocket scientist to do what I do, but you have to be able to figure out how to explain it to people and let them make decisions about what's going to make the most sense for them, as I said, without going to for it, which is key.

And I also think one of your strong traits is you explain things to people-In English? Yes, in a way that people actually understand what you're saying and you don't overwhelm them with big words and lawyer lingo that someone's like, Okay. And you just say yes to say yes. And that is such an amazing attribute to have. But then also that you speak English to it. I'm like, okay, I understand that. Wasn't Stevie Wonder one of your first big cases?

He was one of my first. He was a client that was my dad's, and then he has a lot of kids. So whatever one of the new ones was my dad, I had known him since I was younger, and he said, why don't I work with Laura? So my dad said, fine. And then there was a very big case where he had been living with somebody for a long time, and they were extricating. So we did that case, and then I just started doing all of Stevie's stuff. And he's actually become a friend. He is a very, very dear friend. But yeah, that was, again, when I started in 1994, there wasn't a 24-hour news cycle. Forget social media. There just wasn't things on the news all the time. And as I think we've discussed before, in California, divorces are public. So the minute you file something, TMZ, which there wasn't even TMZ back then, but it's all over it. It's public knowledge. So we try to do things quietly. But that is the reason why so many people know who our firm represents, whether we like it or not. Right.

And I think that's the misconception. I think people, not with your firm, just in general, people think that all these celebrities are pushing things out to the media, where most of these things people would love to go under the radar. But I don't know who TMZ has on their payroll, but somehow they find out anything and everything. Yes. So for your divorce that you had, do you have any kids with that marriage? No. No.

No kids.

But you have two kids by two different dads. Correct. And was that something that was methodically done while you didn't get married to any of them?

No. But once you've been married once before and you've had this beautiful wedding and all that, I know I'll never look better in wedding photos than I did when I was 25. But both of the dads of both of my kids and I were like, Do we want to do this? Do we need this? We're very committed. We're going to be committed to being co-parents. I don't know if I can promise until death do us part. I can promise I'm always going to co-parent with you. And so we left it at that. And so particularly with my older son's dad, that really worked for us. We were both attorneys. We both were from LA, had family here. And then with my younger son's dad, it wasn't calculated not to get married, but it was definitely calculated to have another kid so that Luke had a sibling. And that sibling also has an older sister. So there were really three of them, and they were all five years apart. So Alix at the time was 10, Luke was five, and then Jack was one. So that was how we raised our kids. And so it worked.

And how I know, and you know I know because you do it, too, that you can coexist peacefully, lovingly, respectfully with another parent that's not living in the same house with you is because we do it. We have their backs. We take care of them if things are going wrong. Everybody does birthday parties together. I mean, your family's birthday parties are a little different than my family's birthday parties, but everybody's welcome. And I think that's so important as a family to a kid to see that, to always see parents that are getting along. I think it's important for us as moms. We have this village, this tribe of people, women and men, who are there to help us and fill in the blanks if we need it. That's huge for us and for our kids. Don't you agree?

Oh, my gosh. It's major. I had a great example. My mom and my dad got along really well. And even if they weren't getting along, we never knew otherwise. That is what I I think being a responsible adult is and protecting your children and not lying to them in any way, but having them see that you can coexist and co-parent.

And also not putting that on them. Letting them know whatever feeling things I might have about your dad, I love him because he's my family, and he's your family. So we're going to work this out. Yeah, I agree completely. My parents divorced when I was 16, and they did it that way, too. Super civilly. They both married other people, and then my mom passed away 2019. But the morning that she died, we were at her house in Malibu with her husband, my dad, my ex, who was Luke's dad, and then my, at the time, current boyfriend. Everybody was there around her when she went. It was, again, another example of in those clinch times, the people that are important to you are there.

That's how it was when my dad died. I don't know if it was the day of, but the week that he was dying, he was on hospice. Bruce came to say, have a conversation with him. It was goodbyes. I got this. Yes, everyone. It's so crazy how parallel our families are, but that's also why I think we just get each other so much with that.

I agree.

An interesting story that But another example of how you're such a crusader for love that I actually... I remember, of course, but I didn't think of it when I was like, I'm going to sit down with you today. But either you told my producers or something like that is the story about Lamar when he was in his coma. Yes. And Lamar fell into a coma, and I was trying to get a divorce for a year and a half or two years, something like that. And I don't remember, either he wouldn't sign?

He signed. He signed right before the coma. Yes. And so we were able to get all the paperwork done. And this is back in the day where you would actually go down to court and file paperwork. And so a lot of the people that worked at Los Angeles Superiors Court knew me from being around, probably when I was a kid, I would go with my dad, but it's the same people going in. So I had taken the paperwork down to the court a couple of days before, and I was like, oh, finally, I got this done for Chloe. This is great, whatever.

Even I wouldn't be able to make any medical decisions for him if I wasn't married to him.

So you called me and you said, oh, my God, Lamar is going to come in. We need to stop the paperwork. I'm like, Stop the paperwork. It's in the system.

You're like, It's on the judge's desk, I think is what you said.

So I fly down to Los Angeles, to the court, and you me a little bit. Back in the day, I would try to dress up like a lawyer and wear my little suits and whatever. But when I wasn't being a lawyer, I was wearing something usually totally different, which is what I was wearing that day. And I go down to court and I flag the woman down and I'm like, Hey, you knew me. I dropped a judgment off a couple of days ago, and I need to pull it back. And she's like, There's no pulling it back. And I was like, No, you don't understand. I really need to do it. It's for Chloe Kardashian and Lamar Odom. And And she's like, I don't know who that is. And I was like, okay. I go, please, please, for these people, for me. And she's like, I know who you are, but I'm not doing that for you. And then I don't even know. I was so desperate. I go, what about for love? And she's like, For love? And I was like, yes, for love. They were in love. She doesn't want to pull it back.

She needs to take care of him. And she's like, for love. And I don't know if she just thought I was hilarious or she also is a crusader. For love, she goes, wait here. And she like, I don't know where she went into the bowels of the courthouse. She got it. She brought it back. It hadn't been signed. We dialed the whole thing back. I remember running to my car and calling you and being like, Chloe, I got it. I got the judgment back.

We did it for love. We did it for love. No, and doesn't she tell... When you see her, doesn't she say that to you?

Sometimes when I'm walking by, and again, I'm not down there that often because post-COVID, we do a lot remotely, but she'll be like, For love. Okay, lady. Thank you.

God bless you. We did it for love. But that is another example that you're not like, No, we're getting divorced. You're like, Yes, let's do it. Let's do it for love. Do it for love. Oh, my gosh. I love that.

It's a great slogan. It's almost as good as my sweatshirt that says, Kim is my lawyer. I have the same one.

We all do. Who were some of your mentors and inspirations?

Both of my parents. My dad really taught me so much about not being a lawyer, being a critical thinker, being somebody that was like, okay, I think there's two sides to every story. I was in debate in high school, and he really taught me how to argue. I was a rhetoric major when I was in college at Cal, and I love discourse. I love having a conversation about something and talking things through. I'm sure anybody I dated would be like, yeah, it's fucking great. And so definitely my dad. And also he showed me without meaning to how to run a business. I mean, I run our firm now, and so many mornings he's in the desert, but we text every morning at 5: 30, and he's like, Any news? How's the firm? Whatever. And I'll tell him all of my list of complaints about whoever didn't come in that day and how hard it is to get the millennials working in the office and whatever else. And he's like, Yep, you're learning important lessons. And I'm like, Bro, you never had any of this stuff. We weren't talking about important lessons. And then my mom, who is the consummate cheerleader, she was just the greatest, most positive, happy, upbeat, unconditional love, super cool, Bunny Walser.

Most of my friends from elementary school and high school are like, Oh, my God, Bunny, she raised us. Mine was the house that everybody went to, and we would all eat coffee, ice cream, and the Hadley's Trail mix that you pick up on the way down to Palm Springs. My parents were really young. My mom was, I think, 21 when she had me, and my dad was 23. That was the norm. That was very normal. So they knew what was going on. They knew when we came home, stoned, whatever. I constantly was busted. I constantly was grounded. Most of my friends' parents were older. So even though we got in trouble more in house, we would be there more because it was just a fun place to hang. And that's on my mom. And then other mentors that I've had through the years have been other female family law attorneys, both those that I knew pretty well and then those that I didn't know. People who taught me, if you speak slowly and you speak quietly, they have to lean forward to hear you. You don't need to get in there and slam things around and yell like a man would and cuss like a sailor, even though I tend to do that a little bit.

Same. Quietly, confidently, give other people the respect that they're due, and then they will do the same for you. And if they don't and you're in front of a judge, then it'll be like, Mr. So-and-so, she gave you your turn. Now give her hers. That's the stuff. And again, that I'm trying to teach the younger attorneys at my firm, and when I speak at law schools around the state and stuff like that, I think that's really important.

Oh, I love that you speak at law schools.

I do. It's fun. It is fun. Sometimes I think I don't realize how old I am, and then I get there and I see these kids. No, but again, 30 years. 30 years ago, I was sitting where they're saying, that's a long time. And I just think about what must be going through their heads, what their concerns are now, and are we going to get a job? Are we going to make enough money? I'm thinking about that stuff. I know that there's young women, particularly, but men, too, that are like, I want to be like, Laura Wasser. I want that bag. I want those shoes. I want that car. But what goes into being that? They don't know that until you actually talk to them. They only see what's on the outside.

Right. And do you think, because I know, especially back in the day, women, I don't think there were... I don't know, but I don't believe there was tons of women lawyers.

It actually was a girl job. Oh, was it? It was working in-house at Production Studios was a female job because they had more 9: 00 to 5: 00 hours, and being family law attorneys was more. So there were. David Schwimmer from France, his mom was an amazing family law attorney. Oh, really? Yeah. Arlene Coleman-Schwimmer. She was a badass.

Oh, that's amazing.

There are a couple that were really good. They did a good job. They were tough, and they were very well respected. And unlike some other careers where women were constantly beaten down, my experience was not. I was not really I didn't have that much sexual orientation. People didn't give me that half of time. It could have been because I was my dad's daughter. Could have been that I just wasn't that hot. I don't know. But I didn't get that.

Some people give off Don't fuck with your energy. Yeah. Could have been that. And so you're one of those, Don't fuck with me. Because you're very hot. I was going to say, I'm sure at these colleges, they're probably like, That's a lawyer? Because I love, though. Yes, you're always perfectly You represent yourself perfectly great, but you're cool.

Thank you.

I also think what's so captivating about you is you still have like, you're a woman.

I have my moments.

Yes. Hello. Like all of us. Look at you now. I love it. I am all for it.

Thank you.

Speaking of being a woman, I just want to talk about... Well, I definitely want to get to your fashion because I love the fashion of Laura. But I want to talk about your morning rituals. How do you start your morning every day?

Well, my dogs wake me up. I have a Pitbull and a Lab, and the Pitbull, particularly Pablo, is in my face every day. Pablo the Pitbull. Yeah. The last one was Raul. They're of Spanish origin. So anyway, I wake up I take 5: 36, and I usually will check my phone, do a little work, have a cup of coffee, and then either I run or go to Pilates. So five or six days a week, I do something physical in the morning because I can have time. I take I'll go for a run so it doesn't drive everybody in the house crazy every morning. Get back, wake up my kid who's still home, Jack, 15, make him something for breakfast, start getting ready to go. And if I'm working at home, which is rare, or in the office, I'll get into the office at 9: 30 30 or 10: 00. I don't have many more morning rituals. Face stuff and all that, I think happens more at night, like just the creams and the whatever and the vitamins.

I'm the same. I'm like this tinted sunscreen, girl. That's really it. The rest I don't have the energy for. But it's interesting that you go to your phone or you work right away because I try to like, not this hour. I get up at 4: 30 or 5: 00 every day, but I'm like, No, this hour is for me. I have coffee or do what I need to do.

I feel like if I don't first get rid of whatever... I have clients that are in Switzerland, I have to respond. Also, I told you my dad every morning text me at 5: 30, so I want to text back so that he knows I'm alive, and his little girl made it through the night. But yeah, I think just starting out, and If I see it's a long email that I have to write, that's something cohesive. I usually will have my coffee first. The run time is for me. I don't answer my phone when I'm running. It's a good hour where I just can clear my head. I'm not a good meditator. I can't sit still. This is my way of being able to do that.

And I'm the same. When I am in my gym time, I try to take that hour and don't touch my phone. I'm like, this is my one hour where some other people I'm working out with, they will just stop every five minutes. To me, that's so frustrating.

Right. And I think it's rude also to whoever training you. I feel bad about it. I'm like, I'm so sorry. Hold on.

No, I agree. So I think you're always known for your polished style and your fashion. I mean, do you pull from someone for courtroom fashion?

No. Courtroom person is rough. I mean, you want to- It is, but you make it look so good. Well, yeah. I'm not good with jackets because I'm small, so they tend to make me look like a fire hydrant. It's just stumpy. So I like to wear more fitted things. When I started practicing, one of my dad's partners was like, We don't wear pants at this firm. Women don't wear pants, which is fine because I'm not a pantsuit person anyway. But also I have a tattoo on my ankle that I've had since I was in college, and I don't like to wear stockings. So I would always have bare legs, so that was an issue. He didn't like that my hair was too long and down. If I didn't blow it dry, it would be wavy. It was pre-Jazelle, but he was like, Who do you think you are? George of the Jungle's wife going in there with this hair. So I would put my hair up in a bun. I had actually fake glasses that didn't even have a prescription that I'd wear. Now I can wear what I want, but I still need to be respectful of the judges.

My basics are Alaia. There's some good Valentino. And by the way, I save up so that I can buy stuff because I love clothes. Besides putting my kids through school and making... I have boys, so I don't have to spend as much on their clothes. But I'm a clothes horse. I mean, I love it. I love the shoes. I love Tom Ford. I love being able to dress up. And then literally on the total flip side, I will have a totally separate... I'm a Gemini, so maybe it's just the schizophrenia of me. Total separate wardrobe for weekends and stuff like that. More of a beach girl, hippie, Boho Isabel Marant, that stuff. Chloe, now this last couple of seasons.

Well, Kim is starring in a TV show that's loosely based off of you.

Loosely.

Loosely. We're going to say loosely, loosely. One of my favorite things is all her fashion. I don't know if you've seen it or if she's been sending you photos or anything?

I have heard about the fashion. Also, one of the prop masters was like, oh, my God. And not just hers. Yeah, everyone. Like, Glenn's, Naomi's, everybody is dressed. By the way, I can't wait till the women at my firm see this show because they're going to be like, what has gone wrong here that we're not dressing like these women?

No. What I've seen, it's like vintage Mugler. It's so chic and incredible. To me, I'd be like, that's the best compliment.

You got to glamorize. It's like having gallows humor. You have to dress beautifully if you're going to be doing this law and here in this much misery day in and day out. I hear the show is amazing. I can't wait.

I hear it's amazing. And you and I both have to go to- Yes, we're going to set.

I have a funny story to tell you, and I don't think you would mind. Your brother-in-law Travis No. I represented him years ago. And we had a court appearance that was going to be in the office. A judge was coming in to do the court appearance. We had a private judge, and he said, I don't think I have the right thing to wear. And I said, okay, come in about an hour early and whatever you want, and then we'll figure it out. And you know my office is in Century City, so it's near the mall. And I think at the time, it was like Bullocks. There was maybe a Bullocks in a Broadway or whatever at that Century City Mall. Oh, my gosh. So he came over and he was wearing a torn shirt, whatever, neck tattoos, piercings. And I was like, okay. And so we walked over to Bullets, and we bought him a suit. It was a Hugo Boss suit. We got him fitted. We got the neck, the collar, so it could go up as far as we could. I mean, the judge knew who he was and saw the tattoos. But again, we wanted the judge to know he was willing to be respectful.

He's like, I'll never wear this again. I said, give it to a charity, but we need to do this. And he was a really good sport about it, and it was just great. It was like a little brother type of thing that we did.

That is so funny. I love that. But that is so him. He will go with the flow. He'll be like, okay. Got it. I know this is my best interest. That is so funny. Let's go to decompressing. Okay. Because how you just said this job, you have to dress the part, and you dress good to feel good. That's how I feel. And in the line of work that you're in, I'm sure it can get really heavy and emotional or sometimes just like, do you ever not believe in love? And what do you do to decompress at the end of a brutal court day?

Well, first of all, I still believe in love. I just believe that there's dicks out there. I mean, there are definitely people that I'm... And also, keep in mind, and I say this to clients all the time, a lot of divorce lawyers make money off of other people's conflict. I mean, come on, the longer we keep this going, the more money we're making. So I have to explain to clients, let's us get this resolved before we're paying a lot of money to me and to the other guy. But I still do believe that that's possible to decompress. I mean, I'm a beach girl, so if it's If it's warm enough, I will jump in the ocean. I will go out to Malibu. I will have a swim or a surf. My kids have always loved the beach, so we'll do that if we can. I'm way more of a warm weather vacation person. I like skiing, but I love being in the sun. I love being in the sea.

I always say, if you take me the snow, that's a trip, but a vacation is the beach.

I totally agree. What the fuck? Yeah, 100%. What the fuck? I'm not going to get bundled up in the freezing. Exactly. Then also, when you have kids, it's a whole different ski trip. Oh, it's brutal. There's snot and you're carrying everyone's pole. It's a whole different thing. Then they're dressed like, I have to go potty. I'm like, no. Hold it.

No. We're not. No. We're not. Pea on yourself. I don't care.

But then on a day to day basis, I don't know. I'm a big tequila drinker. I have my moments, and I have a lot of really good friends. I mean, I grew up here. I've got good friends, they know what a job I have, and they are actually really... I have two of my best girlfriends live one five houses up and one five houses down. And then my other best girlfriend runs my firm. So it can It can actually be fun. And as we're all getting older and our kids are growing up and leaving the nest, we're like, Hey, it's 5: 30. Is it wine time? And I'm like, Guys, I'm not even home yet. Can you just slow your roll for a minute? No, but I love that.

Do you ever have conflict working with your best friend?

No, because she runs the firm. So my conflict is like, she's like, this person didn't pay us. And I'm like, well, I guess you better get them to pay. She's not a lawyer.

That's good. Oh, I love that. I didn't know that. Yes. What would you say is your parenting philosophy? How do you handle You have two boys. Do you try to guide them when it comes to love, or do you think that they've seen a lot where that's been their teacher?

They've seen a lot. Remember, I'm a Jewish mother, so one day I'm going to be a Jewish mother-in-law. So I try to refrain from comment. I have to say my little one hasn't dipped his toe in the romance waters yet. It's mostly just a bunch of little girls that are over giggling and whatever. My older one has a serious girlfriend in Miami, and he's brought her home, and I love her, and she's lovely And again, if I didn't, I know that the more I said about it, the more it would push him into her arm. So I just sit back. He's 19. I hope this young woman is somebody he knows for a long time, but I don't know that they're going to get married. And I just watch it all happen, which is what my parents did, too. I think they knew when I got married at 25 that that wasn't going to be the person that I was probably going to be with for the rest of my life. And they just watched it happen, paid all that money for that wedding, were supportive, and were like, It's all good. I mean, I think both of my kids have seen enough to know that they probably are going to have prenuptial agreements when they get married.

Which I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't either. And I think it's great for them to be like, Look, Laura Wazer is my mom. I got to have a prenup. And they'll probably be like, Okay.

You're going to protect them until the cows come home. My parents are the same way. They were super chill. I don't think I'm going to be like that. And I want to be. I'm always like, what would Kris Jenner do?

You're going to be like your mom. I pray so. You are. I mean, you are. It's hard not to be, frankly. And when you have a mom that you actually respect and you like how she parented you, and then you'll roll your eyes and be like, oh, my God, I'm being like my mom. For better or for worse, you will be like that. I mean, you may be a little bit more protective. And I know Courtney is a little different, Kim is a little different. But ultimately, you guys are all Chris's kids, and you're going to lead with that. I really do think that.

I hope so, because I'm always like, how did she let go?

I know Tru's- She hasn't totally let go. You and I and she have had some conversations in the last couple of years in the morning.

But I love those types of holding on. But when you're 15 and dating someone and you see the car crash about to happen, I would be like, get the fuck away from this douche, where my mom was like, it's okay. I don't know what. Because you have to learn.

Okay, so that's the thing. I have one of my good girlfriends. Her older daughter went to college a couple of years ago, and she'd never gotten drunk. She was a goody-goody. She was a nerd. And it was the summer before she left, she was at a party, and she got drunk, and we were like, yes. Thank God, because you don't So you got them away for their first experience. So you got to... Again, I've said to them, If you have an issue, call me. I will not be angry or I'll not ask questions. You'll get it the next day, but you're not going to get it in the moment. I want you to be able to feel comfortable, and usually they will if you make them feel that way. But it's hard. And I would imagine it be harder with girls. I have to admit that. With my older, even though she was not my biological child, she was living with us when she was a teen in early '20s. And yes, there was times where the inside of my mouth had big wilt on it from biting so much not to say something.

No, and I agree. And my mom was the same. She would, in that moment, would not be super brutal to us. The next day, yes, when we were coherent and could understand, we definitely would- You don't want to waste all that anger on somebody who's fucked up.

I need to remember every bit of it.

I even have a girlfriend that can't afford in her head to get a divorce. She thinks she has to go and get this crazy, expensive lawyer, and she can't do it. But my mom was telling me about this website that you have, and you can talk about it.

So yes, it started in 2018, and it was called It's Over Easy. Then we were acquired in '22. By a company called divorce. Com, and I am still their Chief of divorce evolution, whatever that means. I'm just the face of it in some ways. Divorce. Com. I know people that you know who are using it, and you go online, you give them your information. They'll find you a mediator if need be, a lawyer if need be. It is so much less expensive than my ridiculously high hourly rate. They will help you through it. They will explain it to you. We are so lucky that in this day and age, although we might not love the social media and the 24 hour news cycle and the TMZ And the idea of it all, we have access to so much information online and services like this where you don't have to pay. It's like a $2,500 or something for a full divorce, and you get the knowledge. And because you're getting the knowledge and you're learning, you have the a sense of empowerment, of being the master of your own universe because you and your spouse are working that out together.

And so I think it's great. I'm a huge fan of theirs. And then there's another company that I'm an advisor all cut called Hello Pre-up, which is amazing. Online pre-up. So you and your fiancee talk about it. And you cannot get a prenup that's enforceable in this country, pretty much, for sure in California, but almost every state necessitates you having two lawyers. So in the past, it was very difficult to do something like this on your own. Now you can work the whole thing out. And with Hello Prena, they'll assign attorneys to you to look it over, help you make sure it's good, and bless it and sign it. So now you've got the attorneys, and it's not super expensive. And I do think it's also that same sense of empowerment that you have with the divorce that you're doing on your own. If you're doing the prenup, you're really having the conversations that you know are important to have before you cast your life with somebody and then have kids with them and are stuck with them for this long period of time. If you can't have those conversations, occasions, then you're in trouble.

Right.

And you shouldn't be getting married. Correct. Right. I remember I had no money when I met Lamar. We actually had the same business manager, and they were like, Oh, you need to sign a prenup. And I was like, What's a prenup? And then when I was presented with it, I was offended at first, and then I was like, wait, I'm not offended by this. Once it was explained to me, I really understood what was going on. I was like, okay, sure. Let's sign. And it benefited him at the time. And in the end- In the end, it actually benefited me because our financial situations shifted. And so not that it benefited, I was protected. And I think people don't realize that it's not about give me, give me, get me, get me. It's really just about protecting your own assets. And you don't know what's going to happen during that union. Or I didn't know. I had no money when I married him, and then I ended up having more money at the end from my career taking off and all that stuff. So it was, even if you're offended, you can be offended, be in your feelings, but it's really the best protection for both.

Having the conversations about being offended or, Well, wouldn't I resent you if we went for this whole period of time and I thought for whatever reason that we were just staying married because you were in it for the money or because you this... Having that communication, I think, before you get married. I mean, a lot of religions make you have some counseling with a priest or a rabbi or whatever. This is that next step. People don't realize that when you get married, that's a contract. They're like, I don't want a contract to define my marriage. Bro, you're having a contract, and you better know what the terms are, and you better be cool with them, because if you're not, restructure them.

I think prenups are so important, and that's amazing.

What's it called, you said? Hello, prenup and divorce. Com.

My mom was raving about divorce. Com. I'm like, Okay, you got to calm down. And my mom also wanted... I don't know if you know the stats. My mom was asking, what do you think the statistics are for the divorce rate now?

I think they've been hovering around 50% for a long time. We were one of the first states in California to have what's called no-fault divorce. That's when you just check the box that says irreconcilable differences. It's not working, no question. New York was one of the last states to switch over to no-fault. And before it was no-fault, you actually had to say something that the other person did. If it was fraud, God, or I think it was like cruelty or whatever. So now you're starting out of the gate with some massive, and you have to be able to prove that that's the point. And then you're going into court and you're saying, he did this and she did this. And remember in the old movies where somebody had It's like, you get into a hotel room and the woman's holding the sheet up and they're taking pictures at the flash. Adultry was one of the grounds for divorce. As we know, if you have two, particularly parents, but people, where it's not working for whatever reason, whether there's terrible domestic violence are just like, Hey, we're not evolving and growing as people. We've been raised in our culture and in our generations to think, Okay, you cut your losses and you move on, and you part friends, and if you have kids, you raise them.

But imagine now being in a situation where you have to in that marriage. That terrifies me more than just the fact that I would... Also, divorce lawyers would make so much more money because everybody would just be churning at fault. That scares me, too.

What would you say are some really important conversations that couples should have before they get married?

Money conversations. I think we are so uncomfortable speaking about money, particularly women, and we avoid it at all costs. We don't want to. And I don't know about you. I've been in a and just before with men who made less than I did, and it was always very uncomfortable. We don't want to emasculate them. If we're going to go out with another couple, we give them the credit card so they pay so it doesn't look like we're paying. If we're taking a vacation or if we're with our kids, doing things that aren't going to hurt anybody's feelings, where if the gender roles were reversed, you probably wouldn't do that. It's not weird for a guy to pay for dinner for everybody or whatever. I think having conversations about money is so important, not only if you make more than the guy, but, Hey, this is what I'm thinking in terms of what I want to put aside every year for retirement. Or, Hey, my parents are older, and I don't ever want to put them in a home. I want them to come live with us. So if we're going to buy a house, let's buy somewhere that has an adjacent guest house or, Hey, how much student loan do you have before we get married?

These are things that I think people don't like to talk about, and it's not sexy, and it's not fun, but they're super important. Hey, I was thinking after we have kids, I probably don't want to go back to work for a while. How do you feel about that? Because I can't tell you how many guys come in to me and go, she never went back to work. I married her. She was a business manager. She did it. Now she didn't go back to work. And I was like, Well, did that never come up? Now, sometimes it comes up, and then once you have this angel baby, you don't want to leave and go back to work. I get that. But at least you've had that conversation.

What's interesting is because I've never done this, thinking that far ahead about your parents or things like that, because when you do get married, you intend for it to be forever. I've had the conversations about money or where are we living right now or those things, but never that far ahead.

And that seems so silly. How about even just you? Well, you're not as old as I am, but I don't ever want my kids to be in a situation where they have to pay for me. I always want to have enough money, whatever medical care, whatever is happening. And again, people don't like to do estate plans either, because you have to really look at your mortality. When I die, what am I leaving? Who's going to have the health care? I love an estate plan. Yeah. Okay.

I love an estate plan.

That's weird. But again, it's good. But this is like another thing. An estate plan your estate when you are alive and having that conversation, I think is important and really thinking that far out.

I don't know if this is how you feel, but because you've lost your mother, I've lost my dad. I think all of these things, estate planning, wills, all of that, That matters so much to me and my siblings because of the things that weren't taken care of when my father passed away. I don't know how your mom was, and you're a lawyer. But my dad, he didn't practice law at that time, but he was still a lawyer. And we were just like, huh? I know he died really quickly. He died in five weeks of diagnosis. So it was definitely, I don't think... But we still were all surprised that more estate planning didn't happen.

I think it's different these days. I think we talk about it more these days than we did back in those days. I also have noticed among my male clients, they have a bigger problem facing their possible mortality.

They will go to doctors.

And I didn't know your dad well, but what I know I can imagine him being like my dad, I'm going to live forever. We're signing a new lease right now on our space in our firm, and it's a 10-year lease. My dad's like, Well, haven't you consulted me? And I don't want to be a bitch, but he's like, Because I'm still going to be here in 10 years I'm like, You're 83. And I hope he is still here in 10 years. So, yeah, I think they don't like to face their mortality, and that's why they're not as good about planning for things. I am meticulous. Also, I don't know why, but I have this depression era mentality, and I'm just sure something terrible is going to happen. I'm not like, oh, if I get sick, I'm like, when I get sick. And again, I'm a single mom. So you're constantly thinking, what would happen if, what would happen if I've got letters that I write to my kids every year, like when you open this? I'm ready. I'm ready for that plane to go down. Oh, my God.

Don't say that. Kimberly does that. I think it's every one of her kids' birthdays. She writes them each a handwritten letter. I don't do that. I need to do that because I would give anything when my dad died, if I had letters that he wrote me. I have nothing of his. I'm like, I need something. So what Kim does and what you do, I think that's so beautiful. What made you get into that?

Because my mom did that. I still have a letter that my mom... Even when I was in my early '50s, my mom would write, and she also was... She cut out a lot of newspaper articles. I mean, obviously the ones of me, but she would cut out other things that were just of interest, and she would still mail them to me from my element. I'm like, Mom, I'm going to see you before. And then say, I'm so proud of you. Love Mama, or I thought this made me think of you. You know Nicole Avant, right? So her mom and my mom were very good friends. And her mom would cut out all the magazine or newspaper articles about me, Jackie. And my mom would cut out all of the articles about Nicole, and they would send them to us. I love that. So I would call Nicole, and I'd be like, Yo, did you get an article about me?

Oh my gosh. I love that. I want to be better.

It gets easier as they get older and they don't need you so much. And then you're home by yourself, and nobody's paying attention to you, and you can write them a letter.

Alexa just had a baby, my assistant. She's five months. And at that beginning, you're like, God, can they get older so we can do things? And then as soon as that milestone passes, you're sobbing. I know. And then after, I think, two years old, it just goes so fast because the stages stop.

But it's so fun when they start talking to you. I mean, it's a great ride. Even my 19-year-old, he's three hours ahead. So every morning after I text my dad, then I text my son, Good morning, Luke. And I probably four out of five days a week, he'll write back and be like, Good morning, my mama. Sometimes he'll call when he's on his way. It's always when he's on his way somewhere. But it's like a check-in. If you've seen those Instagram things, all the athletes as they're coming out of that thing, and like, How often do you call your mom? And they're like, Every day, every day, twice a day, whatever. I want my kids to be those kids, and they will be.

Yeah. Well, some. I'm like once a month. I see those dickheads.

But those guys always feel bad. And all of the other teammates are like, Bro, you suck.

They're all like, What's I'm wrong with you. And I love that they shame the one that's like, I never do. We're going to wrap this up with one of your iconic quotes. I don't dress or work out so people will take a picture of me. I do it because I hope I'm going to get laid.

I said that?

Yes. At least it's I'm not even quoted. I believe everything that's on the internet. I know.

I don't remember saying that. I definitely don't dress or work out to get a picture taken of me.

So let's do it to get laid.

Let's do it to get laid. Yes.

Let's do it to get laid. Listen, I work out to get laid. I'm like, someone's going to see this naked one day, and it has to look good one day.

Have you ever heard that thing that people are saying, take naked pictures of yourself right now? Because as much as you might hate them in 10 years, you'll be like, I was hot.

My mom tells me that. Okay, well. I'm like, Are you okay? Can you stop? She's always like, you're never going to look as good as you look right now.

It's true.

She'll tell me that. She's like, wear a bikini. It could be snowing. She's like, just wear a bikini.

I'm like, I love you, mom. Well, tell Chris, I'm wearing the bikini still. No one, I'm not getting laid, still wearing a bikini.

Neither am I, but we're going to wear that bikini. Just say a prayer. Well, thank you for coming on.

You are welcome. Thanks for having me. I love you too, honey. Oh my gosh. Thank you.