Transcript of Sofia Coppola

I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Sofia Coppola. Sofia is an Academy Award-winning filmmaker.

I was always kind of ashamed of that movie because it's so kind of trashy, but then it's like my kids' favorite movie. And I was like, really? That one?

Her films include The Virgin Suicides, Lost in Translation, Marie Antoinette, and Priscilla. We chat about the hilarious way that we met, our shared love of Paris.

I love to go to get crepes at Café Brez, Odeon.

Oh, I don't know that. And what influences her iconic personal style.

Hey, everybody. Cassidy Hubbert here. This week on And Mom, we spoke with Grammy Award-winning musician Corinne Bailey Rae about taking her kids on tour, becoming a widow at 29, and how she felt about having a home Check out the latest episode of And Mom wherever you get your podcasts.

Sofia Coppola, welcome to Happy Hour.

Thank you.

I mean, of course I know your movies, but who knew you had your own champagne?

I, I feel very lucky 'cause I grew up in Napa on a vineyard. And my dad, when I was a kid, said, when you're 21, I'll— you'll have your own champagne. And, and he actually did. Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's really fun.

It's delicious.

Thank you.

It's really good.

I'm glad you like it.

And I love that it's called Sofia.

I, I feel very lucky to have my own.

Everybody needs a good present for their 21st birthday.

Yeah.

You know, the thing about birthdays is you always want it to be something you remember.

Oh yeah, that's true.

Do you remember what you got for your 20th birthday?

Never. Yeah, right, no.

But your 21st birthday, you'll always remember.

Yeah, exactly.

So you and I saw each other the last time in the— I know this sounds really tawdry— in the bathroom at Air France going to Paris.

I know, I was— Yeah, it was so fun to see you at the Air France lounge. And I was like, and I'm a shy person, but I was like, I have to ask you where you like to eat in Paris.

Oh, is that what happened?

Yeah.

That's really sweet.

Yeah, so I was like, I wonder where your favorite place in Paris.

And when was the first time you went to Paris? Do you remember?

I don't remember the exact time, but we went as kids a lot because my parents loved it. And so I grew up, we visited a lot, and I have friends of my parents who are like aunts and uncles. My parents had a little apartment in San Ramon, so that's the area that I know.

Oh, so you know it really well.

Yeah. And then as a teenager, I was an intern at Chanel when I was 15 and 16. What was that like? Oh my God, it was like a dream. It was like '80s in Paris with Karl Lagerfeld.

Oh my goodness.

And I remember going to Café Flore and thinking it was really sophisticated, but just like opened the world to me 'cause I grew up in the country in Napa Valley, so.

Well, you're not exactly a country girl.

My friends were so excited that I was, coming to your place. Oh, thank you. And I have to tell you that I'm not confident about how to make dinner and, like, about roasting a chicken. And we followed your recipe, and I was so proud. My roast chicken turned out really good.

Isn't that great? And, you know, it's really about good ingredients and following a recipe that you trust. And, I mean, I just follow my recipes, like, you know, every half a teaspoon of salt.

You do, yeah.

I just otherwise, You know, I work on them so hard so that you'll be able to make it.

Yeah, so I don't have to.

And it feels good, doesn't it?

Yeah, I was so proud 'cause I always like, it's dry, or, but I just felt, yes, I feel confident now that I know how to roast a chicken, so thank you. And my dad would try to show me things, and he's always improvising. He's like, you just feel it. And I was like, I don't feel it, I need someone to tell me exactly, so.

Yeah, I think that's an Italian background.

Yeah.

When you grow up with your mother cooking, but none of us really did.

Yeah.

So we have to, we need a recipe to follow. I need a recipe to follow. I don't throw things together ever.

That's good to hear.

Yeah. What do you like to cook?

Well, now I feel confident. I only have a few things that I can make, but—

You don't eat a lot of things.

Yeah, no, but my husband makes really good pasta and he grills a steak great. So I feel like if I have friends over, yeah, grill.

You were one of the first people to see Marie Antoinette as more than just a privileged young girl who was, you know, saying things about brioche and cake. What did you see in her that was, that you thought, I mean, I love that you thought you were the only one who could show this side of her.

Well, she was such a villain. And a friend of mine was reading a biography about her and said that she was 14 when she went to Versailles.

Incredible.

Yeah. And I had no idea that she was so young. And so then it made me curious. And Antonia Fraser had just come out with her—

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. She just came out with that great biography on Marie Antoinette. So I read her book, and it was so interesting to me that she, you know, made her human and showed her all these details of her as a young girl, and that they really took away Mops, her pug, when she arrived and what it was like to be an outsider, which I feel like—

Everybody feels that at some point.

Yeah, everyone can relate to going into this world where you're learning how to fit in. And I was always the new kid at school because we moved around so much. So I just— I was really taken by just all these details of how she went through all these transitions that everybody goes through in life, except for in this crazy circumstance during— and then the French Revolution. So— So I wanted to— I just was— and that era, the way they lived and the way they dressed just seems so decadent and fun and over the top. So I just always loved that period and got really into learning about her in a way that I didn't know anything about.

It's so gorgeous. Absolutely so gorgeous. I think you need a little more champagne.

Okay. Thank you.

Are you the perfect person for me to ask this question? Is it true that the coupe was designed after Marie Antoinette's bust?

That's what I've heard.

I didn't know if you knew it was actually true or it was just a rumor.

I don't know for sure, but I've heard that too. And I remember telling Kirsten Dunst, and she thought it was a flute, a champagne flute. She was like, what?

No, no, no.

But I've heard that. I don't know. I'll ask the curator at Versailles.

Oh, that'd be great. That'd be fantastic. So take me back. You, when you were in school, you had so— I think it's interesting. When we're in our 20s, we're interested in all different kinds of things that don't seem like they go together. And you were interested in art, you were interested in and you were interested in photography. So how did that play out when you were in school?

Yeah, I was really frustrated in my 20s and lost. I'm like, I don't know what to do because I can't pick one thing. And I'm not— I know a little bit about different things. I have so many interests, but I'm not an expert at one thing. And I didn't want to just study one thing. And then I made a short film, and I realized it was really helpful to know a little bit about each department. And then you get to work with experts, and it's so fun to talk to the cinematographer or the costume department. So yeah, it was kind of right in front of me, but you don't see it until— You don't see it until you—

And how old were you when you made the first movie?

I made a short film in my 20s. I was probably like 25, 26. And then I made my first film, Virgin Suicides, when I was 29. But I really was stuck dabbling and trying different things. And yeah, I was so happy when I did something that kind of brought it all together.

And it all brought it together. I sort of did the same thing when I was working in the government in my 20s. I would renovate old houses, and I'd go to the bank and borrow money. And then I got a business degree and I taught myself how to cook. And I was like, what am I doing with this other than I just like doing all of them? And just like you, I didn't do any of them really well. And then when I bought a specialty food store, I realized I needed all of that. You know, I needed to go to the bank and borrow money and I needed to know how to cook, but I didn't have to cook my, you know, I didn't have to, I wasn't the chef. So it all kind of, it's so satisfying when it all comes together and it's all of your interests.

Yeah, that's so cool to hear. And I, yeah, I think both young people are my, My daughter, Kozima, who's 16, was like, I think about college, I don't know what I like. I mean, she likes so many different things, how do you pick one? And it's so true.

You don't have to yet.

Yeah.

You just have to kind of see where it follows.

Yeah, it's so hard to do at that age, just sort of like—

There's this great expression that I just love, and I think it's from J.P. Morgan, is go as far as you can see, and when you get there, you'll be able to see farther.

Oh yeah.

As in, you don't need to figure out what the endgame is.

'Cause you haven't got there yet.

Just do what you're doing, do it really well, and see where it goes. And I think that's the best outcome. That's how you ended up And go make it.

Yeah, thank you. And I always feel like you end up doing what you're meant to be if you follow those impulses or urges, like what you're drawn to.

What just pleases you. Jeffrey always says, do what you love. If you love it, you'll be really good at it. Because you're gonna do it all the time, whether you need it or not.

Yeah, it's true. You get obsessed. And I think with making films, I have to pick a subject that I get You work on it for so long, you have to be obsessed with it so you don't get bored of it.

That's a good point.

Yes.

What was it like when you were a kid and moving around all the time? Because you would follow your father wherever he was filming, right?

Yeah, we always went on location, my brothers and I, with my parents. And it was always fun, like an adventure. We lived in the Philippines during Apocalypse Now, and I went to school in Tulsa, Oklahoma during Outback Universe.

Oh my God, that's hot.

Or cold, depending on when you're there.

It was hot.

Yeah, so it was always a fun adventure. I always loved to visit the set because it was always exciting. And my dad worked with a lot of the same people that were like our aunts and uncles.

On the set, yeah.

But I did feel sorry for myself sometimes being a new kid at school. Like, I missed my friends sometimes.

Oh, of course.

But we always went back to Napa Valley where I grew up. So we would come and go. And so I had a home base.

So you'd go for like 6 months and then come back.

Yeah. So I graduated with kids that I was in first grade with. So that was nice.

But yeah. I mean, when we're kids, we think what we're doing, everybody must be doing. Did you think you had just like a regular childhood? Or did you know that it was really unusual?

Yeah, I don't know. It does just seem like that's what we did. Although in Napa, where I grew up, no one else was in the film business. The parents did more normal things. But I didn't really think much of it. And it felt sort of like a circus family. It's just like what we did. And yeah. But it was fun living in different places. And you have to be adaptable.

And also, I think being immersed in creativity must have just seeped into you. You can't help but kind of get that, right? Yeah.

No, I feel so lucky because everyone was being creative, and so it makes you want to do that, and it's exciting to be around. I learned so much being on set that when I started doing it, I just knew how to do it by being around it.

It's familiar. Yeah, it's really familiar.

I didn't realize I was getting all the training without realizing it.

I think one of the things about doing something new is how much do you feel like you know about it? How much do you not know? I mean, I think one of the things that stops me from doing something is, oh my God, I don't know anything about it. But if you do something that you're familiar with, it seems much less scary.

Yeah. And I always think a new project is—

Especially that.

Yeah. Yeah. You want to know enough to approach it. But I think the fun is discovering and learning about a new subject that you jump into because you learn so much.

I mean, I just admire people who just do things. You jump off a cliff. You have no idea where you're going to land. And does it feel like every time you start a movie, it's like, I don't know how this is ever going to happen? Yes. Or do you have it all mapped out in your head?

No, I have no idea, and it's always scary. And then someone told me it's not worthwhile unless it's scary, 'cause you're invested in it.

Exactly.

Yeah, and it's a thrill.

If it doesn't keep me up at night, I don't want to do it.

Yeah, yeah. What's the point if it's not scary? So I do. But it was funny, 'cause I was telling my husband the other day, I was talking about doing a new project and wanting to make a film coming up. And I was like, what if I— it's been a while. It's been a couple years. And I was like, what if I don't remember what to do? But then as soon as you're there, it all comes together. But yeah, I think you always are going in—

What was the scariest movie that you made?

I feel like they always are. You're always like, what if it's a disaster? But then you're just— I'm so fixated on what I have in my mind and seeing that come together, the fun of making it and getting together with the crew to make it. It's so collaborative.

I do love that filmmaking is like this handmade thing. It's all people.

Yeah.

It's not like— I mean, everybody talks about AI, but it's never the same unless it's done with people. And it's Building things together.

Yeah.

I feel that way about a cookbook, but it's such a simpler task than doing a movie.

Oh yeah, but you probably have a whole team.

Yeah, a whole crew of people that we just say, well, what about this? And let's try that.

That's so fun.

I mean, not for developing recipes, but for photographing the book.

Yeah, I love that. That's the part, 'cause I write alone, and then it's fun to come together and then work with people that you love to work with, and everyone comes up with ideas. So it's definitely the process of making it. And then I think the scariest part is when you get first rough cut, 'cause it's like the first time you're seeing it together, but it doesn't work yet. So it's really awkward. And then you spend months editing it into something. And it's always a mystery that it comes together, if it does.

I remember that I saw a wonderful John Williams movie. I'm sure you've seen it, called Music by John Williams. Have you seen that? Oh, no.

It's a documentary?

It's about the impact of music on filmmaking. And, I mean, my favorite moment is when Spielberg was talking about his first movie, Jaws, and he brought it to John Williams.

Wow.

And Williams said to him, come back in a week, and I'll have the theme song for you. And he came back in a week, and he went, ba-boom. And Steven was like, what is that?

Oh, my God.

And he said, it's your theme song. And he goes, ba-boom? And it was— and he said, it's— Spielberg said the music was everything. It was scarier that it was quiet.

Yeah.

And Spielberg was thinking it was gonna be, like, scary, big music. So, all of those things layered onto the—

Yeah, it makes such a huge difference. Yeah, it really does. But yeah, I can't imagine Jaws without that song.

That's how perfect too.

Exactly, exactly.

And actually, I think that in the documentary, they showed Star Wars without the music and then with the music.

Oh, wow.

And Lucas said, half the movie is the music.

Oh, yeah.

So your music is incredible.

I love that part. I mean, 'cause I love music, and I grew up going to see bands. And like, so it's the fun part. And I think when you get in the edit and then put the music on it, it all comes to life.

It all comes alive, doesn't it? It's amazing.

Well, someone told me, try to make your scene work before you put the music on, 'cause you can kind of cheat and put the music on, and it's better. So if you have the scene— If it's good on its own. Good, and then add the music.

It's even better. Oh, that's really so interesting.

Yeah.

I had heard— what's interesting about your characters is sometimes they're, like Marie Antoinette, not really likable.

Yeah.

And I saw a video of one— I think it was a producer of yours who said you bring a project, and you're like, why would you want to spend a year with that person? Like The Bling Ring. which is such a great movie. These 5 kids in LA, it's a true story, that decide to rob famous people's houses.

You know, I read that article in Vanity Fair, and it just was like, what is going on? And it just seemed to be like our culture was shifting. And I thought it was just kind of a phase. I didn't realize it was like a total shift where we were going at that time because that was— I don't know how long ago.

This was before influencers and that whole—

Yeah, it was before even Instagram was popular. It was— Or I'm trying to think. It was just right at the shift where famous people were posting where they were, and then these kids were obsessed with Paris Hilton. I guess it was the early 2000s. But it was— yeah. And I just— it was just so kind of twisted, but it was aesthetically not my world at all. And I remember feeling like, oh my God, I'm dragging all these people through these tacky nightclubs in LA. But there was just something about the world and the kids that intrigued me 'cause it was so— Well, and also that they're intrigued with all the labels which is so revolting. Yeah, yeah, and that they, I guess I always like stories about identity, how people find their identity, I guess, and like them trying on different personalities and stuff. But yeah, I was always kind of ashamed of that movie 'cause it's so kind of trashy. But then it's like my kids' favorite movie. And I was like, really, that one? Like, it was a very like, we had like Us Weekly tabloids as references. And it was just not the aesthetically beautiful world.

But it really was the forerunner of everything that's happening now. I mean, it's incredible. Yeah.

It really felt like we were at a shift, but I had no idea that it was— I think, and also I think kids read it differently than I intended it as like a cautionary tale, but they were like, oh, it's so cool.

So. Another trademark of your movies is interesting to me because I think it's generational, is the trapped woman.

Oh yeah.

Do you feel that that's one of your trademarks?

Yes. I wanted to do a— it was funny, I was thinking about curating it like a film series of movies, not of mine, but of movies that I love of trapped women.

Oh, isn't that interesting? So your mother was, She probably would've been 10 years older than me.

She was born in '36.

'36, yeah. She would've been 10 years older than me. So your mother's generation really didn't have options.

Yeah.

And they, I mean, did your mother work when you were growing up? Or did she take care of—

No, she did like art projects, but she was mostly a mom and wife. And I've been always like torn about that.

And had to travel.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's really hard to, it's not like she could have a regular job.

No, no, she couldn't. And she felt torn. But she was of the era of like, yeah, did you have home ec classes?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was supposed to take home ec, but I decided I wanted to take shop instead, which I did.

That's so cool.

But in the 10 years from your mother to me, my generation, probably— I always think of this as a dividing line. But when I was working in the government in the '70s, and Jeffrey was working in the State Department, I was working in the White House, we went to borrow money to buy a house. And the loan officer— I mean, this is really what your mother had to deal with. The loan officer just talked to Jeffrey.

Yeah.

Didn't even address me. And he said, you don't have enough money for this loan. And Jeffrey said, yeah, we do. We have 2 incomes. The loan officer said to Jeffrey, not to me, she's gonna get pregnant and quit her job, so we can't count her salary.

Oh my God.

And so that's what your mother had to deal with.

Yeah.

And I was like, excuse me, I'm not quitting my job and I'm not getting pregnant. And, and he said, well, you don't even have any credit. So I literally went home and got all of our credit cards that were in Jeffrey's name and cut them in half and went out and got credit cards in my name.

Oh wow.

But we didn't have options.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think she was always so thrilled that I got to have a career and have children, 'cause she always felt like her generation couldn't do both.

You couldn't do both. Yeah.

And she felt like you had to give up one or the other. And yeah, it was so— it changed so much, I think. And I feel so grateful to my mom's generation and the feminists of the '70s that were fighting for these rights so that we could take it for granted and just do things. But it's so— yeah, when I worked on the story about Priscilla Presley, I was thinking how I'm sort of in between Priscilla and my mom's generation, and then looking at my kids' generation. and how women, what they could do, and because she was so kind of stuck without independence.

I think it must have been the early '80s. I had a specialty food store in West Hampton then, and Gloria Steinem walked down the street. And I said to the guys, the young women who worked for me, I said, oh my God, that's Gloria Steinem. They said, who's she?

No way.

And I've never done this before, and I've never done it since, but I ran outside and I said, can you just come into the store? the young women that work for me to understand that you changed their lives. They had no idea. And she was really lovely. She did.

She was—

now that I think about it, I can't believe I corralled her. But fast forward, and you were on your way to Paris, actually, to work on the exhibit at Versailles.

We filmed Marie Antoinette 20 years ago at Versailles, and they're doing an exhibit and bringing the costumes out. But at the time, my mom shot— she was a great documentary filmmaker. She filmed on some of my dad's sets. And so she was filming on the set. She came back for a few weeks and filmed on the set of my show.

She was a serious filmmaker herself.

I know. She made an incredible film, Hearts of Darkness, about— on the set of Apocalypse Now, which is incredible. And this one is not as dramatic because it's our set. But, um—

But it's so much fun. I love the photographs in here where they're in their costumes, their gorgeous costumes, outside smoking a cigarette and on their cell phone.

Oh, yeah. I love seeing them out of character and behind the scenes. Yeah, it was really fun. So, she shot— she loved— All the costumes and the art department and the way they spent hours making this incredible period-accurate food and the design, the flowers.

Just incredible.

Oh, my God. Our art department was incredible. And they were all based on the historical recipes with those gelatin molds.

And the macarons.

Yeah. They didn't actually eat macaroons back then. That was a stretch. But they were so pretty, and it felt like—

Gorgeous.

Just gorgeous. And Pierre Hermé was the one was the designer of them at that time.

Oh, really?

But, and it was really fun when they would come and we'd get to eat the desserts at the end of the day. But anyway, my mom, so she filmed on set, and then during the pandemic, she had never made anything with the footage, and she shot like 80, almost 100 hours of footage on the set. So during the pandemic, she wanted to get it out, and we started looking at it, and it was fun to revisit that time. And she really wanted to have it made into a film. So she passed away a few years ago, and I, I finished it for her this past year. I've been working on it. So it's gonna be at the New York Film Festival. And I'm really glad to finish this one.

And it's gonna be shown at Versailles?

Yeah, they're gonna show some of it in Versailles. And then MUBI's releasing it. I think it's gonna be on MUBI and in the theaters. Yeah. So it's a little embarrassing for me because I'm like a young— I mean, it's me 20 years ago. And I'm not confident yet in asserting my voice of how I want things. So I hope it's I think it's interesting for people to see how people evolve and push to get their vision, I guess, across.

And also to work through that concern, right?

Yeah, yeah. And just to see the incredible team and how they made all the creation, how they made that world with me.

Everybody wants to see behind the scenes.

I hope so. Yeah, I hope so.

Oh, 100%.

I'm Phoebe Judge, and for more than a decade, I've hosted the podcast Criminal, telling stories about people who've done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. But while I was starting one of the very first true crime podcasts out there, I was also taking phone calls from my sister from prison.

I'm in prison.

This fall, I'm going on tour, and I'm telling a story I've never told before, my own. Presale tickets are on sale now for Criminal+ members. General sale tickets go on sale on Thursday, September 24th.

Get tickets at thisiscriminal.com/live. So, you're celebrated for your style. I know people always talk to you about your style. How do you develop your own style? Is it consistency? Is it seeing things in the world that you like? Like, you work with Karl Lagerfeld. Are there things from Karl that you always take with you?

Yeah. I mean, I think I just always loved clothes and fashion since I was a little kid. I was always interested in what my parents' friends were wearing. And I just— it was just something I'm into. And I think it's fun. And it's like escape for me from work and stress. I just think it's fun. So I've always loved it. And yeah, I guess I think you just find what's— what you like. you're comfortable in.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, like, I always, I'm like, I have a million navy sweaters and I'm like, I just know that I have my uniform.

Does that come in navy?

Yeah, exactly. That's, yeah, so that's me and my memoir.

No, there's another connection. You've talked about your father bought your mother Yves Saint Laurent clothes.

Yes.

Which you, I think you still have.

Yes, I have some of them.

Do you know when Jeffrey and I were in Washington in the '70s, Rive Gauche opened there.

No way.

I don't know if you know this, that they were the first ready-to-wear couture stores. It was the first time they had successful standalone stores. You could go buy Yves Saint Laurent clothes.

I didn't realize that.

And there was sort of like lower, a lower price point.

So there, I don't know. But that was like late '70s.

Yeah. Yeah, it was the '70s.

Oh my God.

I wish I could go there. And I don't know how Jeffrey did this on a government salary, but he marched in there and he bought me the most unbelievable outfit of, it was the Russian period, the Cossack clothes.

I have, I have one of those.

Is that what you have?

I have one of the velvet jackets. I love that collection. I do too. That was what I had.

I don't have it anymore. I wore it until it fell apart.

Oh my God.

But it was like a velvet jacket with silk lining.

Yes, I'm gonna show you next time. I wonder, I'll send you a picture if it's the same one. Do you still wear it? Yeah, yeah.

It's gorgeous.

I love it.

Saint Laurent felt that the clothes should feel as good on the inside as they look on the outside. Doesn't that feel incredible?

Yes.

I also had a vest that was, I think it was hot, no, I think it was red with rickrack on it.

Oh yeah.

And then it had a hot pink silk blouse that went underneath it.

Yes.

I mean, just the most gorgeous colors.

Yeah, I love the colors. Yeah, I love, I always look out for vintage Saint Laurent of that late '70s. But my dad got my mom some and it was that late '70s.

And those were probably the same time.

Yeah. Yeah. I think— I feel like the Scandal collection was like— I think it was like '78, where they did all those '40s dresses.

Oh, yeah.

That was my favorite. Yeah, I love—

Did you ever see the— there was an exhibit of Saint Laurent at the Petit Palais in Paris? Must have been 10 or 15 years ago.

No, I heard about that. I didn't see it.

It was extraordinary. And my favorite part of it is what you were talking about before. In the— it was done by Pierre Bergé after Saint Laurent died.

Yes.

In the middle of the exhibit, there was a whole room that was just a disastrous show where everything— none of it worked. It had— they had the worst reviews. And the reviews were kind of wallpapered on the walls.

Oh, wow. I wonder if that was the Scandal collection.

Maybe that's what it was.

Yeah, because people hated that.

He went out to the street and got stuff from the street. Is that what that was?

No, I think the Scandal one was like '40s, and people were outraged because it was kind of looking like wartime, and it wasn't—

Oh, maybe that was—

But they hated it at the time, and it's like the best.

And what I loved is that, oh, well, maybe that's why he put— I always assumed Pierre Bergé put it in so people would understand that, you know, if you're a designer, everything doesn't always work. But maybe he actually loved it. Maybe I've had it all wrong.

No, no, I'm curious. No, but I think there's a lot of things that, like, people hated and then later appreciated.

How many things?

Yeah. And I found a box of old reviews of Marie Antoinette, and they were all terrible reviews. They were like, a royal mess. They were like bad review after review. And I was just like, it's so fun that it survived and found a new audience that likes it. But I wanna ask you, actually, so my aunt was so excited I said I was coming to see you, and she said, I have a few questions to ask her. And one of them was, how do you handle a bad review?

Oh, God. I can't say that I've had, I think probably not being reviewed as a cookbook author would be more likely than getting a bad review. What I particularly love is like on Instagram when people have bad things to say, I don't have to do anything because everybody else just piles on and says, go somewhere else.

Yeah, yeah.

Or, don't be mean. We don't want you here.

That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People love you. So, don't think so. You don't have to engage.

How do you handle a bad review?

I don't look at them. I can't. Yeah, I don't look at them.

It's like Stephen Sondheim. I mean, he got nothing but bad reviews when his shows came out. I mean, they were just disasters. I remember going to—

I didn't know that.

I think it was— might have been Into the Woods, I can't remember, one of them, and half the audience left.

Really?

And I'm like, this is the most extraordinary thing I've ever seen.

Oh, I didn't know that.

And 20 years later, he's just a genius.

Yeah, yeah.

So you can't take them too seriously. Yeah, exactly. Totally. Because that's the answer. So you and I think, I think we like the same cities for style. What's a great day for you in Paris? Like you get up in the morning, you could do anything you want.

Oh, I get really excited about the places that I love to go. But I love to wander around Paris too, 'cause you always find anything. in Saint-Germain, and I love, you know, when there's time just to wander around. There's an incredible little fruit and vegetable store on Rue de Grenelle by us that's like a jewelry store. Do you love that?

I love that you go in and you want some pears and they say, are you gonna be eating them today or tomorrow?

Yes, yeah, and they pick the perfect—

And they're like pear jam. Every single piece of fruit is perfect.

Yes, yeah.

Roserade de Grenelle.

Yes, yes, yeah. I love that place. I love that. Yes, we live near there. I love to go there. There's a little stationery store around the corner where I get my stationery.

On Rue du Bac? Yeah. I love that place. We go to the same places. And the cheese shop.

And the cheese shop and all of that. And yeah, I just have my favorite places and wandering around.

The cheese shop is Barthélemy. And I remember when Madame Barthélemy divorced Monsieur Barthélemy.

Oh, I didn't know that.

And she put a sign on the store. It said Madame Barthélemy. So you should know that it didn't have anything to do with him anymore.

No way. That's so funny.

She was just great.

I remember she was kind of tough, but now there's a new—

There's a new woman who's just fabulous.

And I kind of loved her toughness.

She was just kind of like—

Yeah, totally French. Yeah, French woman. Especially when you finally got her to accept you, it felt like a big victory.

Yeah, big deal. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. I love to go to Café Flore and just sit inside with all the— see the French—

Isn't it just the best?

Yeah.

It's the best. It's just, we arrive, we just drop our bags, and we just go to the corner café and have a crème tartine, and we're there. You feel like, if I had to go home right now, it wouldn't— it would be okay. It would be worth the trip.

I go to Café Flore and get a full o'clock soft-boiled eggs with the baguette strips. And now my daughter loves that too, so that's our thing. Or I love to go to get crepes at Café Braise Odeon.

Oh, I don't know that.

Oh my God, the best crepes. Oh, really?

Yeah, right down the street. Oh, we'll have to do that together.

Oh my God, yes. Like a classic ham and cheese crepe. And my, yeah.

Oh, that sounds just fabulous. So have you had like a sliding doors moment in your life? it was a fork in the road, like everything changed.

Oh, well, like you could have gone a whole different direction.

You could have gone in a whole other direction.

Oh, that's a good question. I never thought about that. But I think I was living in Paris doing Marie Antoinette, and then I met Thomas, who's my husband now. So I feel like my life totally changed because I had a baby in Paris, which was not on my plans when I started that movie. Yeah. And my daughter, Romy, was born in Paris.

While you were doing Marie Antoinette?

After.

After.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right after.

So I guess that, but yeah, it's funny, I never figured it out.

So she's French and American then?

Yes. Isn't that wonderful? I'm so glad that, I'm so glad my kids have French passports. They speak French, 'cause I struggle with languages. So I'm so glad.

Oh, I'm the worst. Yeah.

I think I actually, I'm always stressed about what to make for dinner when I'm just at home, like something easy. There's just too many options. I think you said on your website, maybe there's like menus. Like I look at cookbooks and I don't know what goes with what.

It's so interesting. It's really hard to know what goes with what.

Yeah, is there a book or on your website that tells you like, make this with this? If you go on my website, I have menus. Menus.

Because that's the hardest thing, is how to decide what things go with the chicken or beef or whatever.

Yeah.

And so that the textures are right, the flavors are right, the colors are right. It's really complex.

Oh, good.

And so, yeah, if you just go on the website.

And there's casual menus, not only for entertaining.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are, like, you know, cocktail parties and dinners and family dinners and Thanksgiving and stuff like that.

Oh, good.

Okay.

Thank you.

Because it is— it's really hard.

Thank you.

And I usually start, actually, with the main course and then work backwards and forwards. Of what goes with that.

So, I'm sorry, one of my other— my aunt's other questions were, if you— do you have restaurants that you go to for, like, the specific dish that you have to get there? Like, we go to Mustard's in Yountville to get the pork chop. Like, do you have, like, your favorite dishes at certain places in New York or Paris or anywhere?

Hmm, in New York. Well, I love Lilia in Brooklyn. Do you ever go there?

Oh, no, I've never been there.

Oh, it's just so fantastic. It's Missy Robbins. Oh, well, then I can take you to Lilia. I would love it. Because it's very simple, but the flavors are huge. And whatever's in season is what she's cooking. And she does pastas, incredible pastas, and vegetables, and we just love it. Okay, I'm excited to go. Yeah, Lilia is fabulous. What do you get here? What do you get in New York?

I think Via Carota, I go for their famous salad, and they have a chopped, like a burger, but there's nothing, it's just a chopped steak. Have you ever had that there?

No, I haven't. And the broccoli rabe, or whatever. Yeah.

That's my favorite thing.

I like the truffle pizza at The Mark, Jean-Georges' truffle pizza.

Oh, I've never had that.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's great. People claim that he puts more truffles on for me.

So come with me. Okay, I will.

Sophia.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

That was so fun.

It was so fun.

Thank you.

Next time at Lilia. Happy Hour is hosted by me, Ina Garten. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman Susie Lechtenberg, Alli Jaffe-Ramos, and Deborah Davis. Kay Tyler is a contributing producer, Justine Domme, a senior producer. Mika Pollin-Bonn is our associate producer. Tim Fernandes is the video editor, with sound recording by Joe Plourde. Our camera operators for this episode are Joe Valenzuela and Gregory Purpura. Music for the show is by Pink Martini. Special thanks to cinematographer Dion Beebe. Happy Hour is produced by Goodway Productions, And as a Vox Media podcast.