Transcript of Episode 565: Dr. Elisha Goldstein: Emotional Health Strategies to Break Resistance and Build Discipline

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

Welcome to the Habits and Hustle podcast with me, Jennifer Cohen, where we dig into the mindset strategies and real life stories behind people who build extraordinary lives. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Alicia Goldstein, a clinical psychologist, author, and leading voice in the world of mindfulness and emotional health. He has spent decades helping people understand why we can know exactly what we should do, yet we still struggle to follow through, stay consistent, calm our nervous system, and get out of our own way. And this conversation gets into the part of mindfulness most people completely misunderstand. It's not about sitting perfectly still, clearing your mind, or magically becoming calm. It's about awareness, emotional capacity, and learning how to interrupt the loops that keep us stuck in overwhelm, comparison, resistance, and self-sabotage. What he shares in this episode will make you rethink discipline, motivation, emotional health, and why these tiny shifts can create massive change over time. So let's dive in. Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therasage. Their Tri-Light Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without.

I literally bring it with me everywhere I go, and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle, red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therasage Tri-Light everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therasage.com right now and use code BOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to Therasage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E.com, and use code BOLD for 15% off any of their products. All right, you guys, today on Habits and Hustle, we have— I love these types of podcasts— we have Dr. Elisha. I said it correctly. Correctly?

Yep. That was good.

Really? Yeah. Okay, good. Goldstein. And he is a clinical psychologist who is a leading voice in how mindfulness can actually help calm your nervous system. Would you say that's accurate?

Yeah. Mindfulness. And because I'm a psychologist, there's kind of like a blend of emotional health and mindfulness, both of them. Yeah.

So by the way, thank you for being on the show. Yeah. We were just saying before we started actually, uh, taping that I, in spite of all the inability for me to meditate and be mindful, I don't know how I've had any success because my brain and my nervous system were so shot on a regular basis. I can't imagine I'm the only one. Like, I, I would you say, how would I say this in a, what would you say the percentage of people who are actually able to apply this idea of mindfulness can actually do so in a successful manner?

Well, let's, let's just start there. Like, what, what what we've been told by our media, like what's a successful mindfulness? I mean, mindfulness enjoyed this incredible boom, like from 2000 to 2000, I don't know, 12. And at the time there was like people on the head of magazines, like, um, they still are sitting there in like a serene environment, you know, everyone's calm. So the idea is that mindfulness equals calm. Yes, that's the idea. So, so how can I—

I couldn't say that. I couldn't, like, I couldn't articulate that sentence at the beginning of this podcast. That's exactly— whenever I think of mindfulness, not to interject already, but is that exact thing. Like, I think of mindfulness as being calm. I feel I'm the antithesis of calm. Therefore, how can I calm? How can I do something that's good for me if I'm not able to get myself there? So thank you for saying that. Right.

But that message of mindfulness equals calm is the wrong message. And it's why, it's why so many people feel like they fail or they're deficient in some way. In fact, actually, it created a huge disservice. I mean, look, the app Calm, that's a great name for an app too, right? There's— but it creates that idea that that's what it is, creates a huge disservice because what happens is, yeah, in our culture, it's hard to be calm. First of all, we're fed stuff at a very fast pace. We have a continuous fractured attention that we've been trained in for, I don't know, since 2007 when the iPhone came out, maybe.

Yeah.

Or maybe some of us with transgender— transgenerational trauma from, you know, being persecuted or people's lives or whatever over time, it's really hard to be calm. So if I try and like do some kind of breathing technique and I can't feel calm, what happens is I find I fall into a deficiency gap. So all of a sudden I feel deficient, like something's wrong with me. I just can't do this. And that in itself is recorded in the brain as the same area as stress. So all of a sudden we have increased stress. Well, it's hard to be calm when we get increased stress. So Mindfulness just means awareness. That's all that it means. There's a great poem by this 13th century Sufi poet named Rumi, who you might have heard of, right?

Of course.

This being human is a guest house. Every morning, a new arrival, a joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness that comes as an unexpected visitor. He says, welcome and entertain them all. That's what mindfulness is. Mindfulness is just like, can I be aware of what's happening in the moment as it's happening? If it was taught like that more, or that was on the COVID of magazines, not as sexy as like, you know, hey, we're going to create this some calm in your life because that's what we all really want. We don't really want awareness. What's the outcome of awareness? We want calm. But it really just means the doorway to calm, the doorway to feeling more regulated emotionally, the doorway to having that hard conversation with the people that we care about starts with awareness. So you probably have more mindfulness than you think you have because there's moments where you just kind of know what you're feeling as you're feeling it.

Well, that's really interesting that you said it that way because awareness I have in spades, right? Like I'm hyper-aware of my surroundings. I'm hyper-aware of people's, how people's responses. I'm highly observant. That doesn't make me calm though at all. Like you're saying, it's not even accurate. It's not the whole picture.

Yeah.

Because you know, it's funny. It's like we, I feel there's so much emphasis, and it's extremely trendy to talk about mindfulness, like, as, like, as, like, an overarching thing. Like, mindfulness, mindfulness. And what are you doing to, like, you know, how to save yours— not save your space, like, all this, like, what's that?

Protect your peace.

Protect your peace. That was the one. Protect— exactly, protect your peace. That's a very— and, like, all these, like, like, lingo around it, but yet I feel in, like, the ether, the more we focus on that, it's actually we're becoming as a society less peaceful, less calm, less aware. I mean, there's a lot of chaos, I feel. And it's like this rhetoric doesn't make it any better. And so it's not like because I think it's nice to say on Instagram.

Well, let me tell you why it doesn't work.

Okay, please.

It doesn't work because we want the fast way out. In our culture, right? We're bringing up McDonald's, Twitter, whatever, you know, X or whatever it is. And we want that because it helps conserve energy. I mean, we're wired from an evolutionary perspective for a few different things. When we're making decisions on something or taking actions in something, and by the way, this is why we fail oftentimes at the habits we want to do in our lives. We know what we want to do, but we have a hard time following through. Is because we're wired for when we're making decisions for safety. Is there a risk here? We're wired for certainty. I wanna make sure that I'm safe in this moment, that I know what's gonna be on the other end of this thing. And we're also wired to conserve energy. So if we have something we wanna do that is like, let's say as an example, let's say I wanna, I want to eat better. Let's say I want to exercise. Let's say I want to have the hard conversation with my partner because I feel like we're disconnected right now. Our brain initially, underneath it all, is going to ask first, like, is this safe?

Is there a risk here of me failing in this? Or is there a threat on the other side of this? Am I not going to be met with that connection that I'm looking for so that I, I feel like more vulnerable? There's more shame that comes on. Am I going to fail at this? Nutrition thing, this exercise thing again, which reinforces this idea that I'm just not good enough, you know, and that's intolerable. So that all happens unconsciously. And so what we feel is resistance. So we try maybe once or twice and then it doesn't last. And I think that's what happens with mindfulness, or that's what happens with any of the things that are the habits in our lives. Every, just probably every single person that's listening to this or watching this right now, has listened to podcasts, read books, has, you know, gone to therapy, maybe got coaching, whatever it is. They know what is good for them. They know what the, the answer is maybe to, to, to live a happier, healthier, happier life, whatever. It's just that we don't have access to the follow-through.

Well, listen, that's with anything. That's with everything. We all have— we have— we're over-informed, right? So even with these podcasts, I mean, like, people already have all the information. You can listen to it and like you can package it in a different way a million gazillion times, but it's all in the execution, right? Everything is in execution. Nobody wants to execute. No one wants to take the action. It's, it's, I think, considered easier if you just keep on going to school. Like there's like, you know, there's like full-time students forever, right? Like look at, look at continual, maybe you're one of them.

I don't know.

No, no, no.

What I mean is, I was just saying, I was thinking about the younger kids right now that are going to college.

Yeah.

And you know, and you know, and they're, they're safer right now kind of in college. We don't know what's on the other end of that. 'Cause we don't know what's gonna be happening in 4 years.

Well, that, Well, the thing is that there's only so much theory and academics that it can— like, the knowledge piece can get you, right? Then it comes a piece where then you have to practice, execute, and take action repetitively, right? So you have to like get over the— like, everyone, yeah, is afraid of failure, but if you become immune to failure by doing it enough times, right, it doesn't feel like you don't have to care as much. You won't have the fear anymore. Yeah, but it's how to get from that. It's it's that line, right, from going from knowledge to not just, you know, attempting, but to attempt over and over and over again until you feel that lack of, that lack of self-doubt or that feeling of being a failure.

Yeah, that, that's my argument in Tiny Shifts is that it's, it's, it's not that, it's not that something's wrong with us. It's not that we're failing at things. It's that we're not aware that this is like, we have this underlying biology, biological imperative that, that gets in our way. And so the answer to that is building up and training our emotional health. And so emotional health, just to kind of give a sense of that for everyone here, what the way— the reason I don't— in the, in the field, so this is the way this— the where this came up for me is as I was like in my late 40s. I've been a psychologist for like 20 years, but as I was—

I'm sorry, do you still see patients?

Yeah, I still have a handful. I have a small private practice.

Okay.

Yeah.

Why is it— I mean, not to interject again here, but I don't understand why so many people, you know, they're not practicing anymore. They're talking a lot, they write books a lot, but then they just stop seeing patients like very, very often. Well, is that what are you doing that you're not— are you researching? Are you doing a lot of like speaking? Like, what's the reason?

I started getting to a point where there wasn't, there wasn't enough of me to, to go around for the clients that wanted to come see me. And so I started running group programs. Oh, and so I started— so, and I've always been really fascinated with like, how do you reach people in a way that's high quality, that actually creates the shifts and changes they want to see in their life? And I looked at like Alcoholics Anonymous, I looked at like all the organized religions out there, and then Weight Watchers, by the way.

I know you're gonna—

Weight Watchers, right? A great example, right?

Accountability in group. Settings.

That's right. And so what are the most successful organizations in the world? They're the, the spiritual organizations, they're the Alcoholics Anonymous, the Weight Watchers, right? And they have 3 different components to them. They have a priest, mentor, rabbi, teacher, trainer, whatever you want to call them. They have a curriculum that's there, and the Bible, the, you know, or they have our Weight Watchers kind of curriculum, like a step-by-step program. They have 3 elements. They just have— and they have a community. And the reason for community is that like, okay, I'm not alone in this. So it creates what? It creates that safety, creates that certainty a little bit more. And you hear from other people's stories. So there's a sense of belonging, which again reduces the stress, increases the sense of safety so that I can do this. Oh, this person's doing this. I can take a leaf from that, you know? So we— I think we learn faster when we're in community than we're just doing things on our own.

So you're doing a lot of group stuff?

Yeah, I do different coaching programs that are like group-based coaching programs. This next one I have coming up is called the Emotional Longevity Lab. And it's a 90-day program where I'm going to bring people through creating the foundations of emotional health with their kind of like own personalized— what they want to specifically work on. Then we're going to go down the avenues of like, how does this work to increase your sense of self-worth, your health, your relationships, and also your sense of purpose in the work that you do? And then the last month of it is really to help ingrain it more in your identity. So you realize like, I am this person now. And so we do that through those 3 layers. And I'm kind of like weaving in some smart uses of technology. There's the live community. We do have integration labs that happen in there. So this is like part of— this is like a big thing of what I do is these kind of like group programs, right?

You said earlier also that you met one of our mutual friends doing something in Costa Rica.

Well, my wife and I used to run family retreats, and she's also a psychologist. Yeah, she's also a psychologist. Yep. We started the Center for Mindful Living in Los Angeles. It's in Brentwood, West LA area, and like 12, 13 years ago, something like that.

I've never even heard of that, really.

Yeah. Now you have.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yes, I have.

There it is. And what is it? You just walk in and get mindful? No.

No, that's just like where we practice. We used to run groups there pre-COVID. We had like the 8-week mindfulness-based stress reduction, cognitive therapy, relapse prevention type programs that are there. We did like some talks there and then we all have other people that are associates of ours that work there as well.

So it's kind of like where you practice basically. Yeah.

It's a place that we practice.

Right. Yeah. And so everyone has like their own, um, office. Office. So, okay. That's, so you're like do private practice there too?

Yep.

Gotcha. Okay. So it was not like a, it's not like a synagogue that you walk in and get a question.

No, no, no. It's a, it's a secular visit. It's a therapeutic.

It's a therapeutic. Gotcha. Okay. And so you did this thing with your wife in Costa Rica?

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah. And so we had people come there with families. I hadn't seen anyone doing this before. So families came with their— the parents, the kids, everyone to be 8 and older at the time.

How old?

8 and older.

Okay.

And so we had— we broke them up into groups of like parents and teens and kids, and we had a person that was assisting us like while we were there. And we did— it was kind of like a mixture of training everyone in mindfulness, but also seeing how do we bring this into adventure? Because if it's like Costa Rica, it's like How do you bring this into the fear of ziplining? How do you bring this into paddleboarding down mangroves? And like, you know, what, when you're bringing your awareness, like what you're seeing, like around it, or how do you bring this into your surf training?

I love that.

Yeah, it was super cool. Yeah. If I knew you back then, you would've invited me.

This could have been, oh yeah, that's amazing. I love that. Okay. Sorry, I keep on interrupting cuz I don't like to stick to the questions I have. I like to kind of go on these tangents to where, you know, but sorry. I know you, you were saying something, so.

Okay, well, I'll go back to what I was saying. So the— it's my belief that the, the cornerstone to actually following through on the habits that we want to create in our lives is really our emotional health. And emotional health, so versus like, I guess what I was—

when you say emotional health, what do you mean?

Okay, so emotional health versus just stress management as an example, which is what's talked about a lot on the podcasts that are around, like, the health-related podcasts— exercise, sleep, nutrition, stress. Like, how do we work with our stress? Which is kind of like a blunt instrument to say that type of thing. Emotional health is more about, like, can I be aware of how I'm feeling in a particular moment? Can I increase my emotional capacity in that moment so I can be with or feel a little steadier with this feeling that's here that I may not even been aware of before? And can I have enough flexibility in the moment to see more choices, make different decisions, be aware of like what I'm needing or what's gonna support me or what's gonna enhance the moment and make the decision to take a, a thought or an action in that direction.

Okay, let's stay with this 'cause I think this is a very good area and I think I, I, I never really, people say it again like, oh, are you emotionally healthy? So how, what's the first step into becoming more aware if you're not aware? Of this? Like, I think that it's all— it's easier said than done. But if people are listening and they don't even know what you're talking about, how— what's the first step to becoming more emotionally healthy?

So the first step is being aware of what I call our emotional loops are. So emotional loops are just like, what am I thinking? What am I feeling emotionally in this moment? Which is really hard because we didn't grow up with an emotional vocabulary, most of us, right? What am I feeling? How is my body feeling physically in this moment? And what am I doing? And so those 4 different areas are what I call an emotional loop. And any given moment we're feeling overwhelmed, which you're familiar with that feeling, right? Or we're feeling, we're feeling, we're feeling anxious, we're feeling shame, or we're feeling joyful, or we're feeling excited, you know, whatever. All, any, all these 4 elements are happening. And typically we're not aware that they're happening while they're happening, especially in the current environment that we're in where we're so flooded with so much stuff. There's a great story. Parable by this guy, David Foster Wallace, who was talking about these two fish, these two fish that were like swimming in the ocean. And they were like teenage fish that were swimming in the ocean and they were just kind of having a fun time.

This older fish comes by them and says like, hey boys, how's the water? And they look at each other a little confused and they continue on. They say, what the hell is water? And so we're swimming oftentimes in this kind of water of overwhelm that we're typically not even aware of. We've normalized it., and it's just kind of automatic. So an emotional loop, I, I say the umbrella emotional loop that a lot of us are swimming in is what I call the overwhelm loop. And then we have other things that are derivatives of that. So in any given moment, you can just ask yourself of those 4 different things, like, what's happening? So if you catch yourself scrolling a little too long while your partner is trying to talk with you, that could be a moment of awareness, of noticing what you're doing while you're doing that, can kind of wake you up. That's sort of the first step. I call it recognize. Recognize this is part of a 4-step method called the 4R method that I have in Tiny Shifts that helps us build our— yeah, train our emotional health.

I want to talk about that right when you finish.

So, so just like you're really watching all your— every time I watch your reels, I'm like, wow, look at her, she's, you know, really kind of training, right? And so you want my fitness stuff?

Yeah. Oh, okay. I wasn't sure what reels you were talking about because—

yeah, those reels. Yeah, not the podcast reels, the reels where you're kind of training. Everyone watch those reels. Yeah, yeah, you have lots of other reels.

Right.

And I get inspired by that because I, I train a little bit physically too. And so the— which is also part and parcel of feeling well in life, as you know.

Yeah.

And so, but we can notice in any given moment, like I'm scrolling or maybe I'm feeling uncomfortable right now or my shoulders are tensing or I'm really being really critical of myself right now. Right. Those are 4 different parts that we can have awareness of. That moment interrupts the automatic patterning that's happening in that. And so that's the first step. We have to interrupt it. So when you say like, how do I become more mindful or how do I kind of become more aware in the moment? That's the very first step in our everyday lives is just interrupting it. The second thing we have to understand how to do to create, to expand our emotional capacity a little bit is we have to realize that this body, as you know, and people here, I'm just kind of maybe reminding you of this, there's no separation between our thoughts and our body. And so when you're feeling overwhelmed, you're feeling angry, or you're feeling anxious, or you're feeling scared, or you're feeling joyful or excited, whatever it is, your body's reacting. Your nervous system is, your heart rate's going up, your muscles are tensing to get in that fight, flight, freeze response.

And your job in that moment is to just soften that slightly. So what we're doing by softening that slightly is we're widening our emotional capacity. So now we're starting to kind of train and we're starting to get the— we're starting to grease the wheels, grease the tracks of our emotional health. And also, by the way, that feels really good if we can interrupt an emotional loop by just kind of naming it and expanding our capacity by softening our body. Something about that feels good. And so that lays the groundwork for being able to then do the next thing, which is creating more and redirecting our mind or expanding our choices.

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Because you're like, you feel that feeling?

You know, I feel like overwhelmed can be, and it's good for everyone to check in around this, like, what are my physical, what are my body signals of feeling overwhelmed? Overwhelmed can be like brain fog. It could be. Sure.

Okay, so what are some of the signs of overwhelmed if it's not anxious?

Anxiety is a combination of fear and uncertainty. So I'm afraid and I don't know what's on the other end. There could be a threat on the other end of this right now. I don't know how this is going to go out. I don't know how this is going to turn out. I mean, right? So I'm going to give a talk somewhere and I'm feeling really anxious. So my heart rate is going up. So there might be some similar physical symptoms that are there. My heart rate is going up. My, my mind is racing. I'm starting to kind of feel like I can't catch my breath. I used to struggle like massively with insomnia. I used to have like panic attacks. I can kind of mention like how I got over those.

You did? Yeah.

When I was younger. Yeah.

Is that why you got into psychology in the first place?

I got into psychology. I used to be in the corporate world in San Francisco.

I remember seeing that. But yeah, the reason why I'm asking is because normally when people go into something like this, like fitness also, it's because they have some kind of close tie psychologically to why they're doing it.

Like, I would— I think a lot of therapists, yeah, go into therapy because they've had their own suffering, trauma. Yeah, they've got their own trauma they've gone through. And certainly in my 20s, and I'll tell tell everyone who's in their 20s like the same thing, who are feeling like kind of like they don't really know, they can't really get the grasp on things. Like, the 20s is a tough time.

Yeah, so is 30s and 40s, let me tell you.

But, but, but I mean, it's really— it's even more confusing. I feel like there's even like— there's just a lot of confusion. You come out of the structure of— if you went to school, let's say, and you're just trying to kind of find your way. And everyone thinks that high school, once I get out of there, I'm going to like know everything. But you're kind of starting all over again. But anyway, Yeah, I was successful in my corporate job at the time, and I was playing a whole lot harder, like experimenting heavily with drugs and alcohol. And so I was pretty lost. So I think that—

Where'd you go to school?

UC San Diego was my undergraduate.

Yeah. And where did you, like, what would you say? 'Cause I think the clinical psychologist can be a very vague term sometimes. Some people don't have this, they only went to school there. Not only, but I'm saying like, I wanted to know like, what is the education background? Did you go to a PhD? Do you have a master's? Did you do the training at like—

I set for myself. I—

Are you a social worker?

I mean, you know, like, like my, my doc. So I had been in like in and out of therapy and I've been kind of a self-help junkie for like a long time. I remember when I first read Don't Sweat the Small Stuff and It's All Small Stuff by Richard Carlson, I like loved that book. I was like, oh my God, this guy's saying everything. I like resonate. I kind of know this stuff, but the way he writes it, it really kind of lands on me.. And so I loved that stuff, but I was also just— my emotional awareness was like sort of in the toilet. Right, right, right. And so I— yeah, it was sort of a— it kind of sort of saved me to go to graduate school.

Okay.

And gave me a sense of purpose and direction. And I— what happened was at some point in my 20s, I was like walking down the Embarcadero in San Francisco and I was saying like, this just can't be how my life is gonna roll. And I thought, when I'm 50, which I've passed that point, but when I'm 50, what do I wanna look back and wish I would have done? And then I realized like, hey, I wanna like work with people and support people, support myself. I wanna speak at places, I wanna write. And so then I reverse engineered that and took a big risk. It was a huge risk 'cause there was golden handcuffs in the world I was in.

And what were you doing exactly?

I was, I was in sales. I was managing sales teams. We were selling like long distance lines and, and, and like data lines connecting up corporate offices, you know, for, 'cause back then.

Right, right.

That's kind of what you needed.

And so wait a minute. So then what is your back, what is your schooling behind it? What's your academic background for this? Do you want to get your, do you have a PhD?

Yep.

Okay. And then did you do like a bunch of hours and practical and all that stuff? Yeah.

Okay, so you have to do 3,000 hours.

I know, 3,000. It's a crazy amount of, of like time. I know it's crazy. Do you feel that since, like, did it help you help you? Did you getting your clinical psychology background and doing that work, has it actually healed you? Because that's what normally happens, like we said.

I don't, I don't think that healed me. I will tell you what it did, what it gave me, and this is directly in line with what we're talking about right now. So if you're— if you're noticing you're kind of lost or you're anxious, you're overwhelmed, or you're, you're having a difficult moment, or you're continually stressed, or you're falling into patterns that you don't like, the first step is to interrupt it, is just kind of name it. It's very simple. These are the idea behind tiny shifts. We're just kind of naming it, right? It's, it's something we can do in the ordinary moments of our lives, just naming it. Stress is here, overwhelm is here, my shoulders are bracing. I'm scrolling too long while my partner's talking to me like we talked about before. But then, and then we release. And then this question that was like, for me, what I asked in that moment, I didn't have the word tiny shifts or emotional pivots or anything like that. What I asked was, what do I want to do that's going to be more meaningful for me in my life? Like, what, how do I want to look back?

Like the question, how do I look back when I'm 50 and look back and say like, Yeah, I'm really happy with what I've done. And I think supporting myself and other people felt like a good direction to go. It felt meaningful. So what it gave me was purpose. It gave me a sense of purpose. It gave me a sense of meaning. And you know, 'cause I know you've interviewed a number of people who have like talked about that kind of thing. We know that purpose is, first of all, if you make, the way I always make sense of it is like, why is purpose so having like a direction. By the way, when I say purpose, just so everyone knows, I don't mean you— it's like the whatever that book was, the balloon— I can't remember what it was called. But anyway, it's just like knowing your values and living alongside them. Yeah, that gives you a sense of purpose.

I think purpose is the most fundamental thing you need to be happy over time, right?

100%, because you feel a sense of integrity and a sense of purpose.

I mean, I feel like what I always wonder, like, You know, there's a lot of people who have a lot of money, but they have zero purpose. Like they're just buying, like a lot of women I know right now, like they have a lot of money, they're buying a lot of clothes, they're going on a lot of vacations, but they themselves are not contributing really anything. And I find those people to be actually the most miserable people deep down, right? There, it's like a lot of the external stuff really can't really match or, or help someone with self-esteem or self-confidence. But there's like a mixed message, right? Like, because everything is about outer, right? Like, if you can get this and that and that, that will make someone happy.

And that supports the deficiency gap.

The deficiency gap.

Because what happens is you never quite get— it's never— you're never going to be good enough. There's always going to be someone who has more or is better at or whatever.

100%.

So once you get there, you see someone who's higher and it only highlights the gap. And so it highlights the sense that something's wrong with me. So it creates a self-worth issue.

That's there 100%. And also for men as well, when they're like, when they reach a certain level of wealth and success, but yet like they don't really have a real purpose or they, or they don't have a real why, they're never really happy and they're just constantly chasing. But I was gonna say something interesting today. I heard something that I thought was really, really interesting and I really loved it. And it was, the grass is green where I am. I don't really care how green someone else's grass, cuz I'm not looking there anyway. Because I'm focusing on the grass in front of me at my house. And so I thought that was like really profound.

So that because you think that's profound and you resonate with that, this is how this would work for you.

Okay.

So the moment you notice yourself, like on social media and you're comparing yourself to another person and saying like, how come this person has more followers and more likes or whatever?

Yeah, you know, like we all get caught in those loops, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And so, and so it's a, it's a comparison loop. So it's really natural for every human to have that kind of thing because we're, We're constantly— our brain's constantly looking to see if we're safe. Is there a sense of belonging here or not? So it's scanning for that constantly. You would, you would recognize that and say, okay, all right, this is the comparison loop. You'd recognize, you take a moment to see how your nervous system got pulled, take a breath, maybe a little longer exhale, you let your shoulders drop slightly, and then you, then you remind yourself of that sang. Because if you just try— this is, this is where it won't work as well. It won't work as well as if you're just like feeling overwhelmed, you try and pull that sang. Your brain's in sort of a not a receptive state. And so then we wonder why it's not working. Like that was such a great quote or saying, like, how come it's not making me calm or making me focused or like bringing, giving me the alleviation, the relief I'm looking for. It's 'cause we didn't do the first few steps. And so this is why, and this took me like 20 years to figure out, like why is it that we know so much and we have these sayings, but they don't always connect with us, or we, they don't create the impact we're looking for, is because we haven't learned how to re— just like very basically, like release our nervous system for a second to create more receptivity.

We need more blood flow to this part of the brain, the prefrontal region, and the way that to, to make that land and take root more in like the ordinary moment when you're, you are stressed and overwhelmed. So we recognize that, we say, okay, there's overwhelm here. Take a moment, we release, and then we pull. One of the ways that we refocus— so the 4R method is recognize, release, refocus, reinforce, right? So the refocus stage, one of the things we can do in the refocus stage is now pull from all the wisdom and experience that we have. Now we're in a more receptive state, so you can bring that in and it's going to land more for you. And that's, that's a really important— again, something tiny, something small, doesn't take a lot of energy. Remember, our brain's looking for safety, certainty, and trying to— and energy conservation. None of this takes a lot of energy to do, so it flies under the brain's threat detection system. And if we do this with repetition, you probably know that, that, that phrase, repetition is the mother of mastery, right? I think you went to a Tony Robbins event like a while back or something.

Didn't you go to that on purpose?

Did I? Maybe I did.

Maybe you didn't.

Oh yes, I did.

You were invited or something.

Yes, how did you know?

You know, you come to my feed sometimes.

Oh my God, I was invited to, yes, the one here in like a couple, a year ago. No, not even.

Yeah, he uses that phrase a lot. It's not from him, it comes from history.

Okay, what is the phrase?

Repetition is the mother of mastery. So repetition, what you practice and repeat becomes automatic.

I'm a big believer I'm a big believer in practice. Like, practice, practice, practice.

Well, because you train. Yeah, you clearly train, right? You know the value of training.

Yeah, I do. In everything in life.

There's a difference between exercise and training. Training is you're trying to build something and make it stronger. Exercise is you're just trying to do something regularly that's healthy for you.

Exactly.

Right?

Exactly. But I think fitness is a microcosm for life, though. That's my big thing. I think that doing something over and over again when you don't want to is how you get really, really good at anything and everything. So like doing a squat over and over again, yes, you're doing a squat and you'll get better. But if you can take that same methodology and apply it to anything you want to be good at, you're going to be better than 99% of the world because nobody does it as much as that.

But what's the methodology for somebody who has had a really hard time with having a consistent fitness practice?

Yeah, well, I think baby steps, tiny shifts, tiny things. Like, don't, don't bite off more than that's humanly possible to chew. I think when people really get disillusioned is when they have a goal that's very lofty. So like, make it really small, like these like tiny little things, right?

So like there's the Atomic Habits and the Tiny Habits.

It's all the same. Atomic Habits, Tiny Habits.

But the reason Tiny Shifts—

Mini Habits, who cares?

So what Tiny Shifts is, yep. Is it's saying let's go a layer deeper.

Yeah.

For a second and saying like even with Atomic Habits and Tiny Habits, why a lot of people still don't— why a lot of people still have a hard time following through with that is because they still feel— now that where that, where the value of that is, is it lowers the energy output, right? I don't have to do a lot of energy to do one pushup.

Right.

Right. And so—

Yes. Can I tell you something? Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So I think you're going to say something that I— many years ago I did a— I created a fitness app called Hot5. 5-minute workouts right now. It's very popular.

That, that's still out?

Called— we sold it to Weight Watchers. That's why I use Weight Watchers as the example back when, because I'm very familiar with the whole Weight Watchers ecosystem. But, um, and that's why I think— by the way, another— not to go on another tangent, but that's why I know of all the biggest programs, all these programs of all— now it's like everybody and their dog has a course, a program. The one that works the best is Weight Watchers because of the accountability. They go into these like Little stupid little rooms everywhere around the world. You walk in, you get—

I remember growing up even saying, yeah, you count your points.

People laugh at it all the time. But by the way, guess what? It is the most effective program still to date, in my opinion, because it keeps people accountable. It's not fancy. It's the basics. There's no magic potion. You're counting what you eat. People don't want what actually works. They want the newest flashy light bulb or the flashy influencer who's talking about some very fancy thing.

Or, or just the, or just the one app that's gonna help them that they'll pay, you know, whatever for.

Exactly. Because there's so, everyone's so distracted. If they can just focus on the one thing in general in life, like not jump around, like we're talking about these tiny shifts or talking about being aware. I think if they're, people are aware of the fact that like if you're not constantly looking for the the silver bullet, the magic potion, and you just stick to the thing, whatever that one thing is, that one workout you like, that one food that you like, that one whatever you like, and just keep on doing it, you're going to get to your result. And that's behavioral too, and everything, right? Like, I don't think that— I think what's really confused the ecosystem and the ether in the world right now is choice. Like, too much choice. Too much choice. My mom used to say to me when I was little, she'd be like, You know, basically you, you have too much choice, Jennifer, you're gonna end up with nothing. So like there was like a, you know, in, and in general, right? Like if you go to the big Walmart, you know, you're overwhelmed with all the different options. But if you go to the little mom and pop shop and they have only one type of tape and only one, one kind of bread and one type of milk, you get those and you're happy, you know, but you have too much and you end up with like, you literally walk out like completely empty-handed.

With nothing.

So even in that type of moment, yeah, where there's too much, too much.

So then the question is the paradox of choice.

How do I, how do I kind of go forward? And then how do I, how do I— I can only be in charge of me. And so in that moment when I'm feeling overwhelmed with too much choice, I— the, the very simple path forward to, to, to move in the direction of doing this, the tiny, the Atomic Habit or the tiny habit, you know, that, that BJ Fogg and James Clear's kind of work to be— or you, the Hot 5.

Um, well, that's just the reason, by the way, why I said that was giving someone 5-minute workouts is much, is much more psychologically attainable for someone to do. Like, oh, I can do 5 minutes, much easier than saying go and do a 30-minute HIIT training, go and do that tape for 40 minutes. If you say to someone, do 5 minutes people are like, all right, okay, I can do that. I can do 5 minutes. And the, and the biggest resistance for people is actually the beginning, right? Like putting on their shoes and getting their sports bra on or whatever. And then like going to the, get the mat. If you can like eliminate or like minimize that resistance, or once you kind of over basically get past that 5 minutes psychologically, and also I see on the, on my, on the analytics, will turn into 10 minutes. We'll be like, oh, I can do, you know what I mean? I could do 20 minutes.

The Power of Habit. There was, you know, so many different things in this, right? Habits and Hustle, right? So the, what I think the layer that I'm hoping when people listen to this, that they're kind of taking away is that that strategy is one strategy that's been successful of being able to kind of dial it back. I used to ask people like, how much do you think you can do? I think I could do 5 minutes. Okay, why don't you go do 4? Then, you know, so that there's, there's a kind of no excuse from there. So, but, but that's one strategy. Now, if you recognized the overwhelm of too many choices, let's say, and you just notice like, okay, this is like, I'm feeling flooded right now by too much. And you notice, you pause for a second, you just kind of named it flooded, overwhelmed, you know, whatever you want to say. And you notice that your body is now tensing, like somewhere, chest, shoulders, face, and you just took a moment, just softened for a second, all of like 5 seconds that takes to do. And then you ask yourself the question, okay, what's going to be most supportive right now?

What's, what's one thing I can do that's going to enhance the next 3 or 5 minutes from this in this moment? Now, it might be, well, I'm just going to take 5 minutes and do this. Or it might be, you know what, I need a person. I need another human. Like, maybe that's what someone actually needs. Like, I'm a huge fan of other humans. Like, we Weight Watchers, even one other person that could be a buddy, that could be a coach, that could be some— maybe someone needs that. Maybe that's really what they need. So we want to get in touch with personally what that person needs versus just a one-size-fits-all type of thing. It might be the shorter practice. It might be a person. It might be that, you know what, today's just not the day. Actually, what I need is I need rest. And then because rest is important in your fitness and your, and your, and your training program regime, I need recovery. It's a recovery day for me. I'm just so over— I might need to talk with somebody like— so that third step of refocus is either we're gonna have now the capacity to reach for something that I know is helpful for me, like that mantra or that saying that you had said, "My grass is already green.

I don't need to look at the other person's grass." Or, you know what, why don't I just dial this down to 5 minutes? Like, I know that works for me. Or we can ask ourself a question. When we ask ourselves questions, our brain looks for answers. And so, and we do this all the time, our mind's asking us like, what if this doesn't work out? What's wrong with me? Like, you know, what's wrong with this person? Whatever. And so we get caught in these kind of loops. And so we can ask ourselves, like I say this kind of in the book, we have this artificial intelligence that we're all like either enamored or scared by right now, right? Either way. And then, but we have this natural intelligence too, this NI. Both are kind of have their value. And when we ask our brain questions, just like when we ask the artificial, artificial intelligence questions, it also gives us answers. We just need better prompts. Better prompts lead to better answers. We're hearing this all the time in the AI world. Same with ourselves. So if we ask ourselves the question, what's going to be most supportive for me right now?

So after we recognize release, we don't just, we don't just recognize and jump to that question. We have to do the release place. That's the part that most people miss because that helps expand our emotional capacity to be able to ask a different question or reach for a piece of wisdom so that it takes root. So we say, what do I need right now? That's when we can kind of tattoo on our brains what's going to be most supportive in the next few minutes. I'll tell you this, this is an everyday type of thing. I was on the, on the, I was going to my friend's house for dinner and I was exhausted, but it was my friend, so it was like, cool. I didn't have to, like, wasn't going to take a lot of energy, so I was like happy to go. He calls me midway, he's like, oh, change of plans, wife totally forgot we got invited to our friend's house. I didn't know this person. And they're like, but they said you can come too. And I'm like, I'm like, oh no, this was not like, I don't know these people. I'm gonna have to like be on, I'm gonna have to like, you know, whatever.

It's gonna take more energy. My brain's like, You don't have the energy to give, you know, but so I, I just paused and noticed kind of the resistance that was there and the overwhelm. I was already on the 405. I was already, it was in the valley, so I was already on my way there. And, um, I, I recognized the, the resistance. I took a moment and kind of took a breath. That longer exhale, as you know, is a really important one, um, because it activates the parasympathetic nervous system. It really, it's really enjoyable, by the way, if no one's— I'm sure people in your audience have done that before.

I hope so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, That's a form of release. That's just an example of that. Lowering your shoulders, a little longer exhale, just an example. And then I asked myself the question because I was in a different state. I changed my state, my mind state in that moment by the recognize and release. I was a little more receptive and I said, what's going to be something I can do to enhance this evening? Because I was already going. So I can either go gritting my teeth and like, you know, what's going to— what's something I can do to enhance this evening? And what came to me is like, okay, I wasn't— this wasn't coming to me before in the state that I was in— was when I meet these people that I don't know at the door, I'm going to start off with a little gratitude. I'm going to say, thank you so much for inviting me here. And then I reminded myself that I can be quiet while I'm there. I can be like tired. It's okay. I don't have to be entertaining, you know? And what happened was that completely shifted my energy. Like, and so then I got there and what ended up happening was there was this guy that was this podcast dude that was there.

And who do I know?

No, I don't actually remember his name.

Oh, okay. Can't be that memorable then.

No, no, but it was an enjoyable conversation.

Okay. Okay.

I'm like, by the way, just historically bad with names in general.

Really? Do you know my name? Jen.

Yeah.

Just kidding. Let me take a quick break to tell you about something that has genuinely changed how I perform throughout the day. For years, I just assumed that my mental sharpness had a ceiling. That by mid-afternoon I was running on fumes, slower to think, harder to focus, and even a little more irritable than I wanted to be. And I never really thought that a supplement was gonna change that, but I was wrong. Since I started taking Magic Mind every morning, I think more clearly, I focus longer, and I'm much more productive in the afternoon than I used to be. And that actually surprised me. Magic Mind is this daily 2-ounce shot that gives you a sharper mind and sustained energy. It's built with clinically backed ingredients like lion's mane, ashwagandha, turmeric, matcha, developed over 10 years of research. This formula is nanoencapsulated, meaning that your body absorbs the active ingredients 5 times more effectively than pills and powders. And every batch is third-party tested for purity and potency. So if you order today, you get 50% off your first order at magicmind.com. You can try it risk-free for 100 days and get a full refund if you're not satisfied, no questions asked.

So that guarantee tells you everything that you need to know of how confident they are. You can also find Magic Mind in stores near you through their store locator on Magic Mind. And I was a little skeptical too, but now I notice when I don't take it, and that's the only proof I need. So don't forget to check out magicmind.com to find out the stores near you and get 50% off your first order. At, of course, magicmind.com. You know what's interesting? You just reminded me of something. I had this podcast, I've been talking about it since I've done it. I, it just went up maybe a couple weeks ago with a guy named Kevin Trudeau. Do you know who he is?

It sounds familiar, but okay.

He's not, I'm bad with names. You're thinking of Pierre Trudeau, who was the former prime minister. Okay. Of, of Canada. Maybe. No, but Kevin Trudeau, he wrote a book 25 years ago or more, Natural Cures book. He sold like 100 million copies or like something insane. Okay.

That is very successful.

No, no, no. Like, no, no, he sold like maybe 50 million. It was a lot of copies of this book. Yeah. And he was like the infomercial king.

Uh-huh.

And he was very, very popular. And then he got into trouble with the law and he went to jail for 10 years. Everyone assumed he went to jail because he did something really bad and shady. Turns out he was put in jail jail for contempt of court because he was arguing with the judge. But he got 10 years. That was like— that's the maximum.

That sounds crazy.

Crazy. The podcast was amazing. I'm just saying, it was still one of my favorites of all time. Anyway, he sat here and I was just blown away by what he said to me. He said he was in jail for 10 years, maybe— I think he got out, uh, a year early for good behavior, and I said, oh my God, like, how was your time in jail? Like, holy crap. Like, you were like, you had all these millions of dollars. You were like riding high, and then you had all these legal problems, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, it was fantastic. I'm like, what do you mean it was fantastic? He's like, it was amazing. I had a great time. I was a cook in the kitchen. I got to choose the kind of food we got to eat.

It was like a retreat, right?

Yeah. That's what he said. He was like, I got to choose the kind of food we ate. I, read a lot of books. I would never— if I never went to jail, I would never have been able to read all those books. I was never— I would never be able to meditate as much as I did. All these, like, I would never— like, he's like, it was— it was like, I'm like, I'm like, you're making it sound like it was like the Four Seasons. And he's like, you know what? I get into— he's like, listen, he's like, this is the deal. This is the truth. You go into— you get sentenced to 10 years in jail, Jennifer, you can either— you have two choices. You can complain and bitch and moan the whole time and be miserable. And those 10 years go by really, really, really, really, really slow. Or you can like reframe and be really, okay.

Yeah.

And, and have a different attitude and be like, you know what? I'm here anyway. I'm not going anywhere. I might as well make the best of this situation. And so everything was like, he turned everything into a positive and he had a great, like, and legitimately he looked like he had a great time in jail. So it's so amazing to me how like just a different like reset and a reframe of how you like experience or take on that experience can change everything.

Yeah. And what I want to say is that it's not— it's not everyone is the same. Not everyone has the same—

I would never be able to do it.

Right. Not everyone. No, maybe, but not everyone has the same. Some people like, like I always, I always think of athletes. Like some athletes are just naturally talented and, and they train, right? Some have to really train a whole lot harder because they're not quite as naturally talented.

Yeah.

You know, some grow up with harder conditions. So with that example, I don't know him, but with that example, the way someone could get there who that's a little harder for, they try and kind of do reframes, but it kind of bounces back on them, and then they— this is not working as well— is because when stress is low scale of 1 to 10, I mean, that stress would have been like really high for just about everybody. But for in general, for people, when stress is low, you can jump to like noticing like, I'm kind of like out of whack right now and just kind of try and reframe the situation. And it's helpful. That's one of the elements. That's one of the paths of refocusing. Ask a question, grab from your own wisdom because you already know it. Reframe the situation. Or sometimes I say just take a joy detour. You have to change the channel. That's like going outside and put your hands in the dirt or jumping in the pool or whatever.

Right.

That's why the release piece is so important for most people, because when they try and jump from just recognizing they're out of whack to reframing the situation, it doesn't land. Like, they're, they're, they're, they're feeling anxious or overwhelmed. And so they're trying to kind of like force their brain into a different view, but it's just not kind of like, it's like they're trying to wedge something into it, but it's not going in there.

So you're saying for somebody who's not naturally inclined to do a reframe. That's a really good point.

Or their stress is high.

Or their stress is high and it's not as easy for them. What they can do is do that third R, which is the release.

Well, no, the second R. So they recognize it, they notice, they're like, I'm overwhelmed, I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm just too much, too much. They could just say too much. Sometimes they say like, I want to pull my hair out of my head loop, you know, like whatever. You don't have to have— it's good to have an emotional vocabulary. We can all learn an emotional vocabulary. Um, We, I have a whole thing on my website that kind of goes into the emotional vocabulary when you finish what you said.

So just finish what you said about the release.

Okay. The second, it's really the second R, that release piece that allows our nervous system to soften a little bit. When I say our nervous system, it's literally just like your muscles, right? Yeah. Just allow your, allow your shoulders to drop. By the way, when you do that, cause I know you've done that on here, you said that idea of that inhalation, a little bit longer exhalation.

Well, it's parasympathetic. I talked about it.

Parasympathetic. But what I, what I layer in there is when you do that, you notice your shoulders lift a little bit on the inhalation. When you exhale, your shoulders slightly drop. And when your shoulders slightly drop, what's happening? Your muscles between your neck and your shoulders are lengthening a little bit. And that's what we're after. We're after, we're after moving from constriction to lengthening of the body in the release stage. Can also kind of brain dump and just kind of like write stuff in a journal as a way of kind of getting our thoughts out. But that's sort of what you're after, like loosening your body because your nervous system just got, just got coiled. And we want to just release it a little bit. You don't have to fully, fully release. That is what expands the emotional capacity to be able to do any of those things, like do that reframe more successfully, do the reach for that piece of wisdom. One day at a time, one moment at a time. This too shall pass. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change or change the things I can. Grab from your mom's or your grandma or your spiritual teacher's wisdom, whatever it is.

It's gonna land more when your nervous system feels a little bit more, just a little bit looser, a little bit more grounded. Just not everything, but takes all 5 to 10 seconds. That's the part most people miss. They just wanna go from one to the shifting their, their mind state, and they wonder why it doesn't stick.

So when you say release, you just mean breathe.

What I really mean is—

What do you mean deep breathe? Let your body kind of—

Breathing, if that's supportive for somebody, like the, for most people, if they take that breath in, that longer breath out, that does kind of create a little bit of a release.

That's really what it is.

Sometimes I think of like a thought, there's a self-critical thought happening, like what's wrong with me? Why'd I do that? You know, this type of thing. As I'm breathing in, as I'm breathing out, I'm seeing that thought like flow out of my mouth. And like float out of my body. Not that that's actually happening. There's no paranormal situation happening, but there, but it's, it's just, it's another way of your, you'll notice, you'll notice your body starting to feel a little bit differently. That's the release so that now you can refocus, ask a different question, grab from some wisdom, do a reframe, go out, go take a change the channel. Sometimes you just need a different environment. That's the refocus.

Well, yeah, the, like I, it's that little area between like You're right. I think, because people always say to me, like, well, how do you— like, it's one thing to, you know, people like, how do you get motivated? And then I answer with, you don't rely on motivation, you rely on discipline. And they're like, well, how do you get disciplined? It's like, well, you got to practice. Well, how do you get the motivation enough to practice enough to get the discipline to then do the thing over and over again? It's like, it's basically the chicken or the egg, right? And I always get stuck in that, right? I'm like, I don't know how to tell somebody how to do something over and over and over again when they just are not someone who wants to do Okay, so that's it, right?

So now you've touched on something very important. Right. Well, it's not that they're not someone who wants to do it, 'cause that's, now we're saying this is part of their identity. That's what we wanna move away from.

Enough of the PC way. How do we get them to do it?

Well, no, no, no, because it makes a difference. 'Cause when someone says like, look, when someone says, I'm an anxious person.

Yeah, then they feel, I know, then that becomes your identity and you think you're anxious, okay.

No, they think from that way.

They think from the anxiety place.

So what we say is, and that I'm, discipline is something that is a value of someone. Going back to that, right? This is a value of yours, discipline. You just have a hard time with it. Okay, so, so now we say, okay, it's a value. So what we're going to do is we're going to train it. What training means is you're going to fall off, you're not going to be perfect with it, but what we're going to do is realize that you have some resistance to discipline. There's something there internally. It's an inside job. So you have this idea discipline is working out, discipline of working out, discipline of writing, discipline of whatever the heck they want, someone wants to do in their life, the habit they want to create. And you, you, you have a schedule you've created for yourself, these 5-minute thing, a 10-minute thing, or whatever, of making, planning your meals, Weight Watchers.

And you say, by the way, I'm not endorsed, or this is not an ad, by the way. I don't— I haven't spoken to a Weight Watchers human for probably 8 years. So they're just getting free marketing, you know, basically Exactly. Shoutouts constantly. Shoutout other people. Shoutout Magic Mind. Shoutout someone else. Okay, go ahead.

Magic Mind on Main Street, right?

I love that. I love that company. Have you ever tried it?

I haven't tried it.

Yeah. Okay.

But they reached out to me.

They did.

Like a year or so ago.

That is probably the best mental performance shot on the planet. I'm not just saying that. I am actually— I take one every single day before I work out. This one has zero caffeine. You should try one. And everyone, I've been doing this for 5 years. I've been trying. I love them. This is one of my favorite companies.

I'm going to talk to you about it more offline. Well, you can tell me more about it.

Okay. You should drink one though.

Okay.

Right now.

Oh, okay.

All right. No, I'm serious. Like right now.

Okay. This is going to, this is going to change this podcast entirely. Hold on a second.

That one has zero caffeine.

Yeah, it's tasty.

Yes.

Okay. We're going to see if I say things a little bit clearer and differently from here on out.

And more concise. Exactly. And more focused. Okay. Yeah.

So they have this value. The value is discipline. We're going to train it. We're going to— we have that. You have a task that's part of the whatever, writing every day for half an hour or exercise, whatever.

Yeah.

Sleep routine, you know, and you notice this resistance because when it comes up, because, A, again, underneath that, your brain's asking the question, is this safe? Is it certain? And is it going to take more energy than I have?

Right.

And and you notice this resistance. So you notice it, the resistance loop, call it. Great book, The War of Art, which is great. Love that book.

Steven Pressfield. Yes, yes, yes, yes. He was supposed to be on the show a couple of times. I don't know what happened.

So it's a great example, right? He does a great example in that book of naming an emotional loop. It's just resistance. And with the repetition of the word he uses in there, it just helps with people like recognizing it more and getting a better sense of what that feeling is for them. So you recognize the resistance to the discipline, right? But when you— the resistance is creating a physiological reaction in you, you're not aware of it because it's underneath everything. I want people to become more aware of their bodies and the emotional experience of resistance is actually a physical experience too. Emotions are biology. I wanna be very clear about that. And so then we take a moment and we just kind of like soften our bodies. You can even kind of stretch it out or shake it out.

But you keep on saying the same thing, which is the softening of your body, releasing.

The breathing.

Yeah, but what— that doesn't make somebody go back and do the thing over and over again.

It get— what it does is it, it sends safety signals to the brain when you do kind of release, because it says, okay, I'm not under threat. My body— if my body's able to relax, we're, we're changing the way our— of our subconscious thinking through physiology in that release stage. So if your body can relax, if you can like soften your muscles, you send safety signals to your brain. You said like, I'm safe enough for my muscles to relax. I don't— I'm not under threat anymore. If you can take a deep breath, you send a message to your brain. I'm safe enough to take— to exhale, to breathe, to like exhale for a second. That's what you want. You want your mind-body to be in a sense of feeling more safe so that you can get to the next stage.

Which is what?

Which is the refocus stage. Okay. So now the question is—

the question is—

you ask yourself, What is it? How am I going to feel after I do this thing? Right. That's a common question, right? But now you've— since you've recognized and released, you can ask yourself that question. You can remind yourself, okay, there's this resistance here. I sent these safety signals to my brain by just taking a few seconds to kind of soften. Then you ask yourself a question because you want to access your natural intelligence in that moment. What's one thing I can do that would support me in the direction of this? How am I going to feel after I do this workout, after I do this sleep routine, after I, you know, make this— make this healthier meal? And if a positive— we know that positive emotions are motivating. That encourages a positive emotion that's there and like a vision of a different experience.

What's that thing called when you like, when you kind of eliminate the resistances so you can actually do the thing? Limbic resist— limbic something. Have you heard of this?

I don't know. Yeah.

Like take out all of the possible things, triggers, resistances that you could— so you can actually do the thing. Like, so like, for example, put your shoes out in the morning, you know, your gym shoes, your— put your, you know, your clothes out to work out, like work, put the treadmill in your kitchen, like whatever it is. What are those called when you eliminate any of the distractions or the blockages so you can actually do the thing?

I know what you're talking about. I'm not— a name for it is not coming to me. Yeah.

I'm just saying, based on what you said, if I were to be honest with you, this is the same stuff. I, I've heard this many times. And at the end of the day, what I'm, I'm a big believer in, if you want it, someone wants to do something bad enough, they're gonna do it. You can say that you can't, you, what if this value means something to you and you can loosen your body and you can do this and you can do that, and then maybe they'll do it once or twice. But if you have a, a very powerful reason why you're doing something or why you wanna change, of course.

Yeah.

You'll do it. Like, I've been down this road many a times with a lot of people in a lot of ways. And like, I've noticed that most people are very stuck in their chaotic loop of, of their own habits. They can be bad habits, they can be unhealthy habits, they can be negative habits, but it's how they are. That's their survival mechanism. So it's very hard to break survival mechanism habits, right? Unless something traumatic or something really negative, like something really is forcing you to do it.

You can train it. You can train your way through that. I don't— that's— that I've done this for 20 years with people.

Yeah.

So that— I'm completely in alignment with you. Yes. Your why. Simon Sinek talks about this. Tony Robbins talks about this. People for years have talked about— if I had— I talked to people, I said, listen, you can't get this. You can't— you don't think you can do this thing, cross this threshold, get this done regularly? Let me ask you a question. If someone held a gun to your— your— the person you love's head, And they said, you do this, you do it. Okay, that just means your reasons aren't strong enough. Okay, so we understand that. So the why is—

or is it— how about just pure laziness? Is it okay these days to just say that maybe someone's just lazy and they don't want to do the actual thing?

Well, what's lazy? That's like, again, a blunt instrument. Like, what is— what does that word mean? Like, what's underneath that word? Oftentimes under laziness is fear.

Okay, I mean, yes, sometimes it is. Yes, sometimes it is.

There's those three elements happening. I don't— I'm not sure if there's a threat on the other end of this. I'm not sure if I'm going to fail once again and remind myself that, you know, I have a friend.

Okay, let me tell you this. I have a girlfriend I've been friends with for 20 years, okay? And she's— she doesn't want— like, she refuses to exercise. She's very overweight and she refuses to exercise. Yeah, she will do everything and anything to lose weight except the one thing that everybody has told her, including myself, that she needs to do.

Yeah.

She will go to every retreat, she'll go to every spa, she will take every potion and lotion. And at the end of the day, the one thing she needs to do is exercise. She will not do it.

Yeah.

There is a blockage. Yeah. Now usually that's because of something much more deep rooted, of course. Right.

Yeah. I, I would argue there's an emotional reason under it.

There's an emotional— for sure there is. Yeah. So is this— this is probably where your awareness comes in, right? Like if someone has the awareness to know what that thing is, it's much easier to unlock it, right? To then get past the— what people, you know, whatever that blockage is to then do the thing, right?

Yeah. Like that, this would come into the refocus stage. It would. Like I try, I repeat, I fail, I try, I repeat, I fail. You know, like there, if I got to the— if I was, if I was able to recognize that I was once again resisting, you know, exercising, even though it was on my schedule. And I took a moment just to kind of ground myself. That would be the kind of release stage. And I refocused by saying, like, what's really underneath there? What's going to support me in really unpacking what's underneath this? Like, how can I, how can I better start moving in the direction of this? Like, if it's deeper, what I might need is some kind of other type of support to help me. It might not just be like— it's not all pulling ourselves up. But this kind of method is not pull myself up by my bootstraps, do this method all by myself. Sometimes, like, we really just do need other people. Sometimes we don't want to let go of something. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, sometimes there's a, like, a willfulness there that underneath that is— there's like an anger that's underneath.

Right, that's my point. I think that there's like sometimes, sometimes we're trying to like fit a square into a circle. Okay, I have some rapid-fire questions. Can you go rapid-fire?

Yeah, but I'll just say before we go rapid-fire, yeah, that's the angle behind— and underneath the recognize stage is getting a better idea of your feelings and your emotions, because some— those are really the things that are pulling the strings for most people. Those are subcortical, it's not conscious. And so having a better handle on or intimacy with the actual feelings and emotions that are there can really be helpful in being able to move forward with these other stuff.

And by the way, I, I'm, I'm guilty of this myself, right? Like, I can be considered to be maybe a high performer because I work out. I have a lot of my own, you know, uh, nonsense and, you know, kookiness. And I can't get out of my own way in a lot of things too, even though I have the awareness, I have the ability to kind of know why I do what I do. And it's still really, really hard.

It's still hard.

Yeah. To to do it, right? Like, it's very, very, very difficult. None of this is easy, right? Like, self-awareness, you know, they sometimes say ignorance is bliss, right? Because self-awareness can also be very, um, you know, difficult.

Yeah. But there's the— there, I think that— just want to kind of name for, for those people have kind of, kind of deep gone deep into this.

Yeah.

Self-awareness, we want to kind of like— and again, I think what you're touching on is very important because you're talk— you're talking about the reality of imperfection with all this stuff, with of teachers and people who are speaking about it and psychologists and whoever you look up to. I always tell people, I'm like, whoever you look up to who you think is like the guru or whatever, I go, I've been with some of those people, believe me.

Like, I say it all the time. I say like, there's anybody that you're— don't ever meet the person that you admire the most because like you would be very, very shocked to see just what— when that— when the curtain is unveiled. Everybody has shit, right? Nobody's perfect. And I've I say this all the time, like the people that you think are the smartest, the coolest, the most successful, I've sat with them all, probably 85 to 95% of them. And they're no great shakes, to be honest. It's always like, I'm usually not that impressed with those people. It's actually the people who show that they're flawed, who are not the people that you're putting on a pedestal, who are the most impressive people. People you don't know and they don't need the applause. You know what I mean?

And I think the takeaway there is that if anyone's listening or watching this right now and you're feeling like you have your imperfections, that just means you belong.

100%. Listen, I'm gonna use myself as an example, right? People think, oh, you're so fit, that means blah, blah, blah. It means nothing. It means I'm, I, I have one area that I'm good at. That's good. But how about all these other areas, right? Like, I feel like just never look at somebody and think just because you admire that one thing that their whole life is better than yours, cuz it's actually not true. You, everyone has things that make them good and bad and make their lives good. It makes other people— like, never compare yourself because you never know what someone's really going through or what their situation is or why they're there or how they got there or what back, you know, baggage they have. I think it's a very— I'm really, really adamant about this, and I've been talking about this so much more lately because I feel like social media has done such a number on everybody.

Huge.

And now it's making everybody more insecure. Like, everybody I know is getting facelifts like they were going to get a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I mean, it's insane to me.

We live in LA, by the way.

Yeah. Oh, but these are people not even in LA, by the way. I would used, I used to say, oh, it's because LA. I travel a lot. It's not just LA.

I guess it's, I guess the internet's actually made it probably all over the place.

Yeah. Social media. These people are in like, in like in Tennessee, in Kansas, in, yeah. Yeah. You know, which, whatever they are, people are people. Right. And if you see something in an image or a person or you hear something enough times, you actually believe to think that's like, like that's now become the norm, and we shouldn't make things like that the norm, you know. People should— I, I just think that like because of that, I want people to kind of remember these are just filters that people put on their life.

I just want to say, well, I'm going to say it a different way, the way that you said it.

Yeah, go ahead.

Just because people are going to naturally compare themselves to others, human nature, it's human nature. Instead of, instead of not, not doing it, because it's going to happen, what, what we want to do is recognize that that's happening and then to kind of put it, put it into this kind of method, then you want to, you want to kind of take the somatic moment with yourself just to kind of like ground for 2 seconds. Then you want to ask yourself a question or you want to bring, then you can bring this wisdom into it of saying like, could it be that this person also has other imperfections in their life? Could it be that because I just said, yes. And I just wanted to kind of the way that The different way that this is happening, that I'm saying it, is I'm, I'm, I'm using the method of like asking a question so their brain can search for answers versus saying don't do this, right? Which is because they're gonna do it. We're all gonna do it.

Yes, I love that. So you're saying, I love that, you're saying when you are recognized, when you're seeing somebody and you're, and you're feeling your mind, yeah, goes into like, oh, that person has so much better than me in that way, feeling shame or feeling bad about yourself or whatever, yeah, ask yourself the question of, well, is But maybe they have— do they— it's just because they have that going. Maybe they have some— maybe they have another issue somewhere else that you don't know about.

Or is my brain making them overly perfect? Or, or, or, or what am I proud of? What's one thing I'm proud of myself today? Like, you know, you can kind of bring the question—

you're right, because it just also changes the— it changes the, like, the direction of where your brain is going.

And that makes a difference. Again, it's all connected. So the way you're thinking impacts how you feel, impacts how you stand, impacts It's called embodied cognition. And then you can kind of shift that through the way your body's.

No, I love that actually. That's a great one.

A lot of things we can do to shift our state.

Okay. Here are rapid fire questions. So, which means you have to be rapidly fast. Okay. So no long thought process. Wow.

I think that magic line like made me, yeah.

Good. I'm glad. Yeah. Ready? Yeah. Question 1. What is the one thing someone can do in the next 60 seconds to calm their nervous system?

I just think it's really just simple. Notice where your body is, is holding the tension and see if you can loosen that a little bit. Okay, that's it. You shift your thoughts through your body.

Number 2, what is the fastest way to interrupt a negative thought spiral before it takes over your entire day?

The fastest way is first, do a little planning for a second and just notice if you can name like your top 3 negative thought spirals that you fall into, whether it's a comparing loop, or whether it's a catastrophizing loop, or whether it's some other kind of loop. And then you can spend— and you can send— set an intention to be on the lookout for that. And if you can name it and be on the lookout for it, just that awareness alone in that moment can create a little bit of an interrupt. And then again, again, this is all very simple, and I say this with repetition for a reason. If you can notice how it's pulling on your body, you do want to be able to— you do want to loosen that. And then ask yourself, see if there's a reverse question you can ask yourself.

Okay. If someone only has 5 minutes a day, what mindfulness practice would actually make the biggest difference?

For me, in my life, it's the, it's the body awareness practice. So you're actually just kind of going through your body and you're curious about the sensations of your body and you're kind of moving through from your toes to your head. That practice, and I know we're rapid fire, so I won't say exactly why it works neurologically, but the, That practice healed my insomnia.

Wow.

Yeah.

I want to know now.

Okay.

What— how did you do that? Can you do— can you tell me that answer as fast? How did you heal your insomnia in 60 seconds or less?

Go. Okay. There's two different levers of the brain. There's the part that's a bit more of a— creates steadiness, and there's a part that creates a bit more narrative chaos. And so when you, when you hit the, the lever, which is just being aware, allowing yourself to direct your mind to being curious about sensations of the body versus the story the mind is telling that's keeping you awake. It's like a seesaw effect. The other one goes up while one goes down. It's a little bit like training a black stallion because you're going to be knocked off a bunch of times, but you have to trust the neurology of it. And if you keep coming back, you recognize, you release, you refocus back on the sensation that's here, then your— the lever of the kind of more chaotic gear will begin to go down. And just kind of, kind of continue to bring it back with repetition a little bit. 60 seconds is tough to kind of explain that in, but okay. Yeah.

What is the one thing people misunderstand about meditation that keeps them from not sticking with it?

That it's, it's the, the, it's meant to be calm, that you're—

well, mindfulness is— tell people what, how about this?

Mindfulness is awareness. Meditation is a practice.

Okay, so mindfulness, how about this? Mindfulness and meditation are not the same thing. Mindfulness is actually about being— it's not about being calm, it's about being aware. And meditation is a practice.

Yeah, but meditation, people do meditation for an outcome, and that's the wrong thing. Meditation is meant to be a training. So in other words, if I want to train emotional awareness, my meditation will be on my emotions. If I'm going to train concentration, I'll focus on my breath for concentration. If I want to train, like, more equanimity, which means open awareness and being aware of things coming and going, I'll do a different type of meditation practice. Prayer is meditation if I want to get closer to God. So the question is, what's your intention with this practice? Treat it like a training and not for the outcome. That's not what you're after. You're after, like, the practice and repetition of something. You want to— you want to train in playing an instrument. It's not that every now all of a sudden you'll get an outcome of a beautiful song that you'll get, but you're You're training the agility of your fingers on the instrument. You're training. That's what you're doing with meditation. It's just a training. That's all it is.

I like it. All right. So Dr. Elisha, I said it. Yes. Goldstein, his book, his new book is called Tiny Shifts and it's out everywhere, right? It's one of your, your third book.

My sixth book.

Oh geez.

Yeah. Sixth book.

Wow. Okay. Well, he's been around a while, I guess. You guys, uh, go grab a copy and you can also— where can people find you if they want to know more about tiny shifts or anything that you, you talk about?

I think that, you know, I'm on Instagram, I'm on, uh, the most universal spot is just my website, elishagoldstein.com. Um, there, there's also this, this tiny shift bundle there that you can get that's going to give you a bigger emotional vocabulary, give you a few practices to train with.

That was what I forgot to ask you. When you say emotional vocabulary, what do you mean?

Uh, I just mean like being able— yeah, it's more words. Being able— well, it's, it's two things. It's words, so being able to know what you're feeling while you're feeling. So for example, and this is part of my story and I'll say this pretty quick, is that my parents got divorced when I was 6. My mom like left the family to, you know, pursue other things that ended up being really wonderful for her. But for me, I was kind of left with a lot of anger, and then I shut the anger down. I decided like, I guess unconsciously, that I just not be angry. And you just wouldn't see that. I had no, I had no connection with the feeling of anger. And so one time in my 20s, I was at my mom's house and she's, I was like being irritable with her and frustrated. And she's like, I think you're angry with me. And, and I said, no, no, I'm not angry. And she said, but when you notice that you are angry with me, I want you to know that I'm open to talk to you about it. That's when I ran into Marshall Rosenberg's work on nonviolent communication, which like really expanded a whole massive vocabulary of emotions.

And I started realizing annoyance, frustration, irritation, These are all experiences of anger. So all of a sudden I was noticing more anger and being able to— the value of that is being able to communicate it. And also you have different needs depending on how you're feeling. You're gonna need something different if you're overwhelmed versus sad versus lonely versus, you know, afraid. And so being able to accurately name how you're feeling is key to understanding what your underlying needs are.

Damn, why did you let— leave it to the— okay, we— You mentioned it like 10 minutes ago and I was like, I really love that emotional vocabulary. We're going to have to come back to it. But we got to it too late. That's a great— I want to know more about that.

Clip that out.

Yeah, I'm going to clip that. I want to know more because I think that is so accurate because I think what we— the way we describe how we feel or what a situation is, is usually not accurate enough. And therefore, so we're not getting— we're not getting the right solution back at us, right? Like if I'm saying to you, for example, I'm really frustrated, but it really isn't the frustration at the word, the word isn't the frustration. It's really a different word, like sad or angry or hurt or whatever. Then like I'm not, I'm not explain when I'm not explaining myself right, or anybody not explaining themselves correctly, then they're not, they're not having the correct conversation and the correct kind of back and forth to actually get a resolution.

Yeah. And you or your partner or your friend or whoever you're communicating with doesn't know what you need. And so because you're not— because we're not able to name what's happening as well. And so if we can get clear on what our emotions are and what our needs are, it's like a puzzle piece. They fit together.

What are the main— what are some of the main emotional words that people misuse by accident?

Some people— well, I think most people just say they're feeling fine.

Right, exactly.

That's true. But they don't. So that, you know, they just kind of— again, we don't really have a good vocabulary. But I think we sometimes we say we're feeling sad and we're feeling lonely. Those two go together.

Sad and lonely are two.

Sometimes we're just feeling agitated, really underneath that we're feeling lonely. Sometimes we're feeling angry, angry, but underneath it is really sadness. Sometimes we're feeling sad, but underneath it is anger. Sometimes we just are feeling like a yearning to feel loved or cared about and understood. And instead we get agitated with people. And so to just kind of be able to get a little more intimate with— that's why I kind of point to the body a lot, because emotions, they're physical. And so when we're able to name them, we also want to know, like, how they feel so we can better identify them when they're arising. And that helps us communicate it with the people that we care about.

Yeah.

Listen, when you do this, it makes me feel like that. I wonder if we can, like, compromise and kind of do this in the future.

I love that. Yeah. Okay. Go look at, go check him out, Dr. Elisha Goldstein, and learn more, because I love that, that emotional vocabulary. Thank you for being here.

Yeah, it's been great. Thanks for having me.

Of course. Bye.