Transcript of Episode 520: The Best of Habits & Hustle: Touré Roberts (ONE Church LA Founder)

Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

Today, we have Torre Roberts. He is the founding pastor of The One Church, which is one of the most influential faith and empowerment congregations in the entire world. Is that correct?

It is. Is that correct? Yeah, only because it's here in LA. So it's not the biggest, but the reach because of those who come and those who subscribe to it makes makes it influential. So it's influential city plus influential people come there. That's part of it. The other part of it is online, we have over 700,000 subscribers to our channel. How many? 700,000 subscribers to our channel.

On YouTube, right? Yes, of course. I saw that. I couldn't believe how many that is.

Yeah, it's a lot, which is a whole another... How did that even happen? It's crazy.

Well, first of all, I want to start by saying, before we started this podcast, when I was asking you, how do you even become a pastor? I'm Jewish. I don't know. I wanted you to tell me that whole thing. But I was saying that for those who don't know, your wife also is a pastor, Sarah, and your father-in-law, who is super famous, TD Jakes. I was under the assumption that you became a pastor through him. You met Sarah, and they brought you into the business, and you said, No, no, no, no. Actually, that's absolutely not what And so I want to really start by your backstory, like how you started, then how you became this family affair unit. So let's start from the beginning. Great story. Okay, go ahead. You're on.

So my background is business and technology. So before the faith world, before the spiritual world, I used to build data centers for Fortune 500 companies. And so that was me. I was very successful. From I started my own company that was a complementary service to the corporation that I was working for. That company took off and made me more money than the corporation that I was working for. Things were fantastic and great, externally, but internally, I was a mess. In all honesty, I've always been a good person, but I was pretty full of myself, and I was puffed up and proud. I had a spiritual awakening I was 26 years old. I had a spiritual awakening. Ultimately, for me, it was- What was this?

Why? What was the the catalyst? The catalyst, yeah.

I was married, and my marriage was falling apart. We got separated and we were splitting up. I said, All right, my family was my stability. I was still crazy and wild and doing stuff that a married man shouldn't do, to be honest with you. I was young in my 20s. No excuse, but it's just it is what it is. If my family structure, my stability was going to be disrupted, my conscience said, Hey, you better try to get close to God. You better really try to get yourself together, spiritually, because karma is a month.

It's a bitch. Can you swear? Are you allowed to?

I am a grown man. I'm a grown? I'm a grown. Amen.

So you could swear if you want. For sure. Okay. You see, I See, I would think that you wouldn't be able to.

No, I was a person before I was a pastor.

Yes, that's true.

And I will always be a person. And to be honest with you, my audience are a bunch of customers.

Really? Okay. Yes. Who is your audience? Who are the Yeah, it's diverse, but a lot of young people, a lot of millennials, my average follower, if you would, is between 25 and 49, 70% female, 30% male.

They're young professionals. Locally, many of them are in entertainment. They're in the business. I think for the most part, they're people who maybe wouldn't subscribe to a traditional faith, a traditional expression of faith. They're influencers, they're culture-shakers, and they just want something that's real. They don't mind faith as long as faith is big enough to fit their lives. I hope I answered that question.

No, because that's what I was saying earlier. You I should say also, Tori wrote a book called Balance. This is your third book. We're going to talk all about it after. And what I was found to be really nice and delightful, I guess, while I was reading it was that it is very mainstream. It's for people. You don't have to be super religious or very Christian or very this or very that. There's something your teachings and what you do can resonate with lots of different people. But anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you. So it continues. So you We're having this life crisis, basically.

This life crisis. I started really seeking God. The only interpretation of God I had was my mom's church. But the only thing is my mom's church was very small. I don't mean small in number, although that would probably be accurate. They were small in their perspectives. I couldn't go there, but I said, All right. It was a Christian church. Let me try at this other church that I felt like it was more young. The guy was older, but he was drawing young people. I started sitting in that church, and it was like every message he was talking to me. It was like, wow. I don't know if you've ever had that happen where you're somewhere and somebody's speaking, and what they're saying is resonating deep within. For me, the message was clear. This was over about a seven-month period. You need to really give your life to God. You need to really prioritize your spirituality. I I did that. I didn't think that it was going to be anything more than me just practicing my spirituality. But when I started talking to people about my spirituality, it was having an effect on them. I didn't really choose ministry Ministry.

Ministry was like the organic overflow of what was happening in my life personally. Then I did have a moment where I felt like this divine calling. I mean, that's a long story, but ultimately, through a series of dreams, the message was clear, you have to love people the way that you love your first born child, and you have a gift to communicate to people in a way that unlocks the gift that they have that they just don't know it. So again, that was a whole ordeal. That would be a whole other podcast to tell you how that unfolded.

You were having dreams, though. You were saying, I know you don't want to go that deep into the weeds, although now I'm super interested.

Okay, we could do it.

So That was the precipice. You were having these dreams about that, and then that said, okay, I'm going to pivot to putting myself in the ministry. Is that basically?

Yeah, I was having these dreams.

What were you seeing in the dream? Oh, God.

Well, I'll tell you this one dream. I'm in the dream. It's me and my daughter. Well, first, prior to that scene, in the dream, I'm taken up. I ascend at a high rate of speed, and then I come to a halting It's just a stop. But prior to stopping, I burst through this cosmic, clear film. Then when I got there, it was like I knew everything. There was nothing I did not know. It was strange. I had just total knowledge. Then cut to me and my daughter, my first born child, her name is Lauren. In the dream, she had a gift. She could fly, but she didn't know that she had this gift. In this dimension, attention, there was a whole bunch of hordes of evil people or beings, whatever they were, creatures, and they were coming to get us. My response to it was to tell Lauren. I said, Baby, fly, baby, fly. She's like, Dad, I can't fly. I'm like, Yes, you can. I believed in her wings. I'm like, Baby, you can fly. She's like, No. I said, Just put out your wings and fly. And she is lifted up, and we both are lifted up, and we're saved from this hoard.

And so that happened a few times. I woke up, and I'm sweating, and I'm crying. I feel deeply moved by this dream. And when I really saw the interpretation of the dream, it was clear, first of all, you have to love every human being the same way you love your first born child. Two, you can't fly. You don't have wings. Your gift is to speak to... Your gift is to see the wings that other people have and to communicate. You can compel their wings, and they will fly. And as they are lifted up, you will be lifted up. And it was a very profound dream. And it's been that way. When I see people, I mean, first of all, loving on that level is not easy, but I practice it. I practice. I don't care if you're homeless on the street. Obviously, evil people are hard to love, and I'm still a work in progress on that. But just because you're struggling, you've had misfortune in your life or you've done... You just haven't been the best I'm very compassionate, so that's a gift. But I've seen that when I see people, I just see their wings.

From the books that I write to the messages that I share, it's all about me speaking to what's in you? And I just know it's in there. And if you'll listen and if we spend time together, if you'll listen, there's going to be something in what I say that unlocks your wings. And as you're lifted, I'm lifted because I've got to do what I do. That's the calling.

So before this dream and before you were 26 and all this, this was never even occurred to you to be involved in anything like this.

Absolutely not. I'll be honest with you, Jennifer. If you would have come to me 25 years ago and said, Hey, Tori, I just discern that you're going to be a pastor, you're going to be a minister, I would have laughed uncontrollably, asked you what you were smoking and where I might be able to get to.

Exactly, right?

It was like that. No, I never saw it. Ironically enough, I used to want to be a child psychologist when I was very young. But I went into business. It's a strange journey the way that life takes you.

But you said a couple of things that was interesting, like that to be doing this, you have to love everybody else like you love your first four. You have to... Who says all these? Is this what you say, or is that what happened in the dream or did someone tell you that?

No, and this is my calling. I don't think that that's a universal approach to calling, but in the dream when I- That's what they were about the feeling. Oh, yeah. It was good because I'm like, what's the significance when I'm really questioning God, my interpretation of God? What's the significance of... I get my gift to communicate, to see the gift. I get the person has the gift and they can fly. I said, But why did you use my first born child, my daughter? I just married her. I sent her away. She was away. But why did you use her? He was like, Think about, why do you think I would use her? I thought about how I feel about it. I love all my kids. At the time, I only had two. I only had my two daughters. We have six combined now. I love both. My daughter, Taya, was the middle child. I love her immensely. But there's something about your first born, the one that brings you into fatherhood, the one that changes your life. The moment that I knew she was coming, my life changed immediately. He's like, It's plain. Think about how you feel about her.

You love her. You love her unconditionally. You believe in her. You want to protect her. You want to see her prosper, thrive. If you love everybody I send you like that, you're going to be an incredible leader, incredible spiritual leader.

Do you hear voices or is it just like... That's what I'm trying to get. Oh, yeah. What do you hear? Is it just a feeling? Is it an intuition?

Yeah, it happens several ways, but the best way for me to describe it is it's annoying. I think that, and again, this is my interpretation, but if our creator gave us ears to hear, a nose to smell, eyes to see, hands to have tactile experiences, then why would he not create us with an organ of perception, some ability to perceive things that transcend the natural realm? I call it my knower. Some I call it an instinct or what have you. But once you cultivate that, we call it an instinct, once you sense something? For example, here's what happens a lot of times. A lot of times you'll feel something, you'll sense something, and maybe it's I should act on something or not act on something, and then you don't act on it or you do act on it and you realize, wow, man, that was bigger than me. I felt like this might happen, but I didn't respond, and this is the outcome I got. And so there is this like a trial and error. You develop that organ of perception. And sooner or later, you just know to call it God, to call it divine, because once you begin to trust it and step out in it and employ it, it leads you to spaces and places that transcend coincidence.

A couple of people I know who don't do what you do, but they think that they are intuitive and they are vibrating, I guess, at a different level or the different dimension. That's how they would describe it. But it's very hard to wrap your head around it because they say that we're in dimension three. Do you know this whole thing about dimension... That really is a whole other podcast. But I guess my point is, do you believe then if you felt that feeling. You're like, do you feel like you're vibrating at a different place? And also you're doing it because you are acting on that gut intuition versus ignoring it. I think a lot of people ignore those feelings, and they just push them down or they get distracted. What made you not get distracted or push them down? What made you act on those?

Because they worked. It worked when I didn't do it. Now that intuitiveness, I do remember that from being a kid. Oh, you do? I do remember. I would sense, Hey, something's going on. Something's getting ready to happen. I grew up in a challenging neighborhood. I grew up in Watts. I was starting in East Oakland, grew up in Watts. You could just feel like something's going to happen. I'm like, Hey, guys, I'm out of here. Then you'd hear the next morning there was a shooting or something like that took place, or you're at a I used to club, of course. You're at a club, and you just feel like, Man, something is weird here. Sunset, Roxbury. I used to do all that here in.

Right, of course.

In hindsight, I remember that. But this is different, and I think that you begin to trust it because it never disappoints. It almost becomes unnatural to suppress it, to ignore it. It's the fruit of following it or the pain of not following it that really puts you in a place to trust it.

Also because like you were just saying, this is a good segue to your background. You grew up in Watts. You said, weren't you involved in shooting also? Didn't you get shot by a drive-by shooting?

I did. In that area, I was blessed because I had a great family. Thank God. That makes a big difference. Yeah, I had a great family. The street that I lived on was It was safe. There was drugs on the next street, shootings on another street. But for some reason, now I believe it's God's protection, but for some reason on my street, it was safe. But if you leave your street, and that's what I did, my mom always told me, Look, you can use my car at 16, but just don't have anybody in the car. And I'm like, Mom, what do you know? I can have somebody in the car. Well, the guy that I had in the car was gang-affiliated. And so we're out driving, and he gestures at some guy, and these guys are grown. I'm 16. And they just pull out a gun and start shooting. And so at 16 years old, I got shot and nearly died.

Where did they shoot? Where did they get you?

They shot me in the back, in the shoulder area, and the bullet went forward and lodged in my esophagus. And so my esophagus is ruptured. I'm spitting up blood. I'm thinking, Oh, I've seen this in the movies. I'm dying. Oh, my gosh. And it was traumatizing. And at 16, quite frankly, I prepared myself to die. I remember being in the hospital. My mom came in the hospital and I just said, Mom, I'm sorry. You told me not to have anybody in your car, and I did. Here I am. I said, But Mom, don't worry. If I die, I'm going to heaven. I'm trying to encourage my mom, and she wasn't having that. She prayed for me. The next thing you know, supernaturally, I was healed. The bullet moved, which it's a whole other story, but it lodged itself in a safe place. Place, and I was back on my feet. But it was a lesson. Maybe that lesson was... Maybe that one was less about intuition, but more about listening to your mama, boy. Mama, I'm the best boy.

I was going to say next time, listen to your mom, Exactly.

And I do today, by the way.

You do? Okay, good. That's good. I like to hear that inside the mom to a little boy. So then what was the next thing? So do you go to school for this? What have you practiced? Because you have to write these terms. How did How do you start this thing where now you have almost a million people following you on YouTube with this, and you have a congregation? What's the process then? Now you know you have a gift or you have a calling or a knowing, then what?

So it depends, based on the denomination, what the requirements are. But for me, what happened was I discovered my gift. I discovered that, wow, this is happening to me. And as I'm sharing this with people, their lives are changing. Now, I'm a business person. I can't remember, I was brought up in business. So I'm thinking structure, how do I get the biggest impact from my effort? This is great to sit around a coffee shop and talk to your friends and whatever, but that's time and energy and effort. And I just want to have a big impact. So the business guy in me said, you got to create a space. Now, I didn't even know it was a church. I didn't come up really around the church. My mom was around Eastern, all that stuff. But I didn't know the business of church. I didn't know the structure I didn't care about any of that. I'm like, Listen, I've got this gift. I've got this attraction. People are attracted to me and their lives are changing. So I went out and I ran out a hotel room in Culver City and put my own money in.

I didn't know that you can be a nonprofit and the people can... I didn't care. I wanted to reach people. So I took my money. I started this hotel room and I just said, I created flyers. You got to see this first fly. It was so pathetic. I was in business, not graphic design. It was atrocious, and I'm embarrassed now. I'll show you one thing.

Okay, show it to me. I'd like to see it.

Yeah. But I just started. And on the first day, 80 people came.

To the hotel room. To the hotel. And what did you do? Did you just did a speech?

I stood up, gave a speech, asked who wanted to join this movement.

What was it called?

It was called Saints. It was a corny name. I changed it. But it was called Saints United. And ultimately, what that meant to me was, Saints is a church term, you know what I'm saying? Anyway, I'm sure people love that, and I don't want to be dishonorable. But United was, my thing was all about unity. I was born in Oakland. Oakland is a very diverse city. I grew up in LA. La is a very diverse city. But I did notice in the church space, it wasn't really diverse. You had your Black churches, you had white churches. You didn't really have. You have it now, but I didn't see a lot of that. So I wanted diversity, not just in ethnicity, but in socioeconomic posture. I wanted people with diverse thought. I just felt like God's Kingdom is this big, beautiful, diverse Kingdom, or else I couldn't serve a God who wasn't diverse, who just everything had to be justice. That would be very short lived for me. That's where it was. So Saints United Ministries.

Do you charge people to come to the hotel room? No. It was just free for everybody.

Free for everyone except me.

Exactly. Except you, who paid for the hotel room. Exactly. Then how long do you speak for?

That was- Did you have a speech? Yeah, the speech was probably about half an hour, 40 minutes. I had someone sing a song. Then who wants to join? Who wants to be a part of this? A few people joined. One of my best friend for now 30 plus years, he was the first person. Kenny is my friend. He's biracial, he's Black and Mexican, and he was like, I'll go with you. He's been with me until this day.

Really? Oh, wow.

So it started like that. I met hotel rooms. And then for a long time, honestly, it didn't grow. It stayed small for two years. And then I felt, you talk about intuition, I felt like I was supposed to move it. It was in Culver City to North Hollywood. Didn't know why. Why do I go to North Hollywood? And most of the people, the wapping few dozen people who were coming all lived south of the 10 I said, Hey, guys, I feel divinement inspired to uproot here and plant in North Hollywood. And that didn't go over very well because the mentality valley, it's like you're in another state. I did it. When I planted that church in North Hollywood, it exploded. Really? Just by changing location. Where you are is so important. It exploded and took off and became what it is today.

Well, so that's So it went from having 80 or 25 or whatever people. How did you put the flyers, too? They just started to come more.

This was interesting because my background was business and marketing. So I created this nice flyer. I did all the work. I did data on the... I was doing data back before people were thinking about data. This is 2004. Who's here? What's their age? What are they like? Based on that, I put together this awesome flyer and did this A major mass thing, and nobody showed up. I don't think one person from that outreach effort showed up. I felt like, How did I fail in this? I really felt God say, This is not going to happen by human effort. This is not going to happen because you're so smart and you've got this background in business and marketing. That's all cute. But I need you to know that what I'm going to do, I'm going to do. And so I stopped doing that and people just started walking in off the street. I just set up shop, did my thing, and people started coming.

So you stopped all the marketing, you stopped all the flyers, and they just started walking the door?

They literally started walking the door. Here's a funny story. So even though I was different When I was fresh, and I had a different approach to faith than what Congress should look like, it was very... I thought it wasn't conservative. Now I realize it actually was more conservative than I thought it was. But conservative for me would be, you're in there with your shirt and your tie or whatever. I didn't have a shirt and a tie, but I did have my Dockers and my braided belt and my Loafers and a blazer. This young guy comes in there and this guy's got on jeans and he's got on a T-shirt. This is 2004. He's got Chuck Taylor's on, jeans and a T-shirt, and he comes in, he sits in the back, and I'm like, This is a peculiar site in a house of worship. This guy's got on jeans. He leaves out and he comes back, and he brings about four people with him. And guess what? They're all jeans, T-shirts, Chucks, male and female. I'm like, This is strange. After service, he walks up to me and he talks real fast. The guy's name is Brian Kennedy.

If you Google him, he's a major music producer, Rihanna, Chris- What's his name? Brian Kennedy.

Brian Kennedy. I'll look it up after.

Anyway, but he wasn't at the time. He comes in and he comes up to me after the show. He talks real fast. He slowed it down now. But he's, That's what I'm going to be great. I'm really great master. I really touched me. I play keyboards, and if you ever need somebody in music, and I'm just looking like, okay, so when someone's talking fast, you start talking fast with them. And so he leaves. Then he comes back with a row full of young people, and they're all young, they're talented, they're beautiful, they're gifted. I'm like, Okay, something is happening here. Then that's when the pivot changed because as I got to know them, many of them were talented, gifted, and beautiful, but they were in bad situations. Even professionally, Brian was, and I want to say this carefully, because he was working for a producer who they were music crew. They were very hot at the time. I mean, if I name some of the songs, that they did, you would know them. But the deal that they were putting before him was pretty oppressive. He was better than that deal. I took him the Roscos, Chicken and Waffles.

Let me know if I'm going too long. Just like, kick me or something like that.

No, I think this is interesting. Okay. So I take him- I like these back stories because it makes people... I think it paints the proper picture versus the little snippets that people don't understand. This is true.

So I take him to Rosco's Chicken and Waffles, and I'm like, Let me see the deal. And he showed me a deal, and I said, Brian, it's not worth you. And I told him my reasoning why, and he had to make a decision. Now, for some, it looked like the deal of a lifetime. You get to work with these producers. They're going to let you produce. They've got all these hits. I'm Brian, you can do something on your own and avoid. This was before the 360 deals, all this stuff that the labels are doing. Now, this is before that. So he took my advice. He got out of that situation, and then Rihanna Disturbia, he produced that. Chris Brown, Forever, he produced that. His career takes off. He was writing for Faith Hill, the Rascal Flats, I mean, Natasha Betting, I mean, just name it. And he's just blowing up. There were a lot of stories like that. Because these people had influence, they were bringing people to the church. The church took off, and the fastest growing demographic at that time was young Hollywood. But the reason why I bring it up, particularly as it relates to them being in bad situations, because I'm thinking about this other girl named Natasha.

And Natasha was gorgeous. I mean, just a beautiful girl. But her self-esteem was in the tank. I'm like, Natasha, you're gorgeous. You're bright. And so I got a little pissed at the industry, to be honest with you, because I'm like, here are the young people that are moving from all around the world to come here because they're talented. And they were just abusers in the space, and they were oppressing them and making them feel less than who they are. And so my message began to be shaped by- Who was coming. Who was coming. And so God gave me language for young Hollywood. I started talking to them, and it would be their lifeblood. I talked about identity. I talked about value, worth, affirmation, purpose. It just exploded. That's really how it happened.

What happens with Natasha?

Natasha's doing great.

Okay, what's she doing now?

She's an actor. She's an actor. She's doing great.

Is she very successful? I know who she is, I guess.

I wouldn't call her very successful, but you know what? She's successfully emotionally.

Okay, good. But yeah, as a human being. Yeah.

She's doing well. But there are people in our church that are much more public than her. A lot of people, there was a show. We sold a television show to ABC in 2019 based on my life. It was a sitcom. The ABC Studio bought it. A sitcom?

A sitcom.

That's hilarious. I love it. A sitcom based on me and Sarah. But the guy who brought the idea to me. His name is Leslie Oldman Jr. He's Emy, Tony Emy. Emy, he's got some stuff.

I can't remember what. I think he's one of the guys in your book, right? Yeah. Tony and Grandmy, award-winning actor and singer.

He is. I had no idea he was sitting in my church. He was there before anything. Now he's doing movies and traveling. He was in, God, why is the Broadway? Hamilton. Hamilton, yeah. He did that. He did Hamilton. He went all over where he was a musician. He just hosted this. He did Hamilton as what?

An actor? Amazing as Hamilton.

Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. But I had no idea. He's sitting in my church the whole time while he's a, quote, unquote, nobody and being affirmed and who he is. I'm not taking credit for his career. No, of course not.

But you're saying- And so he comes to me and he's the one that opened the door to do this show that we did successfully sell the pilot to ABC, and it was a put pilot.

The network spent, I can't tell you how much, but a lot of money to do this pilot. We were literally... Our bags were packed in April of 2019 to go to the upfronts to sell this show at the very last minute, although the studio bought it and produced it, Network said, We're not taking it to serious.

Why?

I don't know. We were all devastated. It was me, Leslie, Kerry Washington was an executive producer on it.

She was attached to it, too?

Yeah, she's got a deal at the Studio.

At ABC, I know.

At ABC. And she was attached to it. At the very last minute, the network said, No, we're not going to do it. If you Google it now, all the trades were like, This is going. This is happening. This is a show to look for, and all this stuff. But it was all God's design. One, COVID was knocking on the door. None of us knew it. So God only knows if we would have got stuck in development hell or whatever. You just never know everything for a reason.

Was it already canceled before it was started, before COVID started in 2019? Correct. So even before COVID, it was already... You have no idea why they decided? They thought- How they were spending that money in having her attached?

They didn't think that it tested well. Testing is tricky because you got to know your audience to test. You can't just put a show out there. It's almost like my church is very unique. My church may not do well, honestly, in the Bible Bell. Because I'm just different. I'm built differently. My language is different. So if you're going into the Bible Belt, and I'm not saying that's what they did.

Maybe that's what they did, though.

Yeah. Testing is like, no, you got to... Anyway, listen.

But why don't you take it, not like the career strategy advice for me right now, but I should give it to you after. But why don't you take it somewhere else? Like Amazon, Netflix, do it yourself, pay for it yourself, and then sell it?

We talked about it, and we're always open to it. I think some of the networks that we were involved with, there was a little bit of executives go from company to company. The person who bought our show at ABC, by the time the show was it was time for network to make the decision, she was gone. She was over to another company. Sometimes that could have killed the deal, to be honest with you. They leave and everything's nice and nice on paper, but I didn't buy that show. I'm not as invested in it.

Well, that happens all the time, actually. But where did she go? Can she take the show with her there? If they don't want to do it.

Well, ABC, they own the rights.

Can you get released from those rights and then she can buy it?

I'm sure. I don't know where she is now. She might still be where she went, but I'm not sure. There are things. But another thing, honestly, is the show started to become less about what we did originally. When the network gets involved, they have ultimate creative control. And so they softened some of the edges. But here's the thing, and I talk about it in balance. I needed that loss because I only knew... Jen, can I call you Jen? Is Jen okay? Yeah, of course. Okay. I only knew how to win. The church did amazing. Two book deals, television show. I'd done some other work, some smaller things.

Did you get the two book deals because of your popularity with the church?

I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

And this, by the way, the two other books, though, did you know TD and Sarah yet? This was not even yet. This was all before all of this.

All of this was before.

Okay, continue. This is what I find. I didn't know this. Okay, go on.

So I only knew how to win. I'm being interviewed, I'm going to places, I'm talking to people. The Root named me the top 100 influencers in the space. I mean, it was just like it was happening. Things were going really good. So that was going on. I knew how to win, but I didn't know how to lose. I realized that sometimes for the sake of development, it's better to lose than to win. Because during that time, there was a transaction, a financial transaction that I was really excited about, an acquisition, and that deal fell apart. I found out that people say it's too good to be true. In this case, it was, and I lost a lot of money, earnest upfront money. And then, quite frankly, my legal fees to make them go away and cry uncle. So I was out of a lot of money. The opportunity was gone a lot of money. This deal, which is, again, my bags are packed. I'm going to New York, baby. We're getting ready to up front. We're saying, literally, the week we were leaving, Network says no. The community in Denver that I took over, now that was my father-in-law's church.

That was 2018. I took that over because the former leader had some missteps, and they were out of a leader. So I stepped in trying to be a good son-in-law.

For how long have you been married to Sarah for?

It'll be eight years this year.

Eight years? Okay. But the show was in 2019?

Show was in 2019, yeah. Okay.

So you only lost that show like a year, two years ago. Oh, yeah.

Oh, It was fresh. But I needed to... So the Denver organization, not going the way I planned. The acquisition, falling apart, cost me a lot of money, and the deal goes away. The show that I just knew was It, goes away. That was a lot of loss in one period of time, and I started struggling like, Man, do I still have it? Am I still that guy? But I needed to know that there's a difference between There's a difference between losing and being a loser. It taught me that. I just think that there's more value, honestly, sometimes in losing than winning. I know that that's not a sexy thing to say, but it's true. I To get up again, to trust again, to believe again, I think that you should never waste a perfectly good failure. People look at failure and they're like, Man, I'll never try again. I'm going to go a different route. I'm never going to take a risk again. And that's a waste of a failure. I think if you do an autopsy on failure and you get in there and you start moving the spleens around in different things, you'll see things.

There's a treasure there that will set you up for the next thing that you're trying to do. So I needed that loss, to be honest you. I've won in other ways since then, and I'm going to win again. The main thing is I'm never going to stop taking risks because when you start talking about scaling, I know this is a business podcast as well. Scaling, obviously, we all want to scale. You can never scale if you don't stretch, if you don't put yourself out there. Absolutely true. Anyway, it was tough, but I'm glad it happened, actually.

It's hard that it happened. You could say now, I'm glad it happened because you got this and I'm all about finding sustainable ways to optimize performance, the work that actually moves the needle on how you feel and function. And that's why I really need to tell you about Prolon's five-day program. Most of us are chasing quick fixes that never get to the root of the problem. And the result is sluggish energy, brain fog, and bodies running below its full capacity. But Prolon changes that by triggering your body's natural repair and renewal process at the cellular level. It's not a cleanse or crash diet. Prolon is the only patented fasting-mimicking Diet, developed at USD's Longevity Institute. It's a plant-based program with soups and snacks and drinks that nourish your body while keeping you in a fasting state. The benefits are backed by science, deep cellular rejuvenation, fat-focused weight loss, no injections, and better metabolic health and energy, plus improved skin and even reduced biological age. Here's my favorite part. It's a complete reset in just five days. No willpower, battle no extreme restrictions, just a structured plan to let your body do what it's designed to do, repair, renew, and optimize.

Right now, Prolon is offering 30% off site-wide, plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five-day program, go to prolonlife. Com/jennifercohen, and use Jennifer Cohen to claim your discount and bonus. That's prolonlife. Com/jennifercohen. Jennifer Cohen, and use code Jennifer Cohen. What I'd like to ask you more about is you're talking about resilience and getting the following and then getting back up again. So when this happens to people, do you give people who follow you? What would you say the first couple steps are for doing that, for getting yourself back up and to not quitting? Because actually what you said, I say a lot, is being a loser and losing are very, very different. Very different. What actually makes you a winner is getting right back up again and keep on moving forward. So what would you say? How would you tell people in your congregation that they can do that and get out of their own way to succeed?

The first thing I do is give them permission to say, ouch. I'm not that God that says, Man up, dog. That's not me at all. It hurt. I was battling some dark moments. Hey, have I lost my thing? Is my season passed? It was a tough time, and I had to be honest with though, that I have been bruised. Because if you don't do that, you're going to walk around bruised. You're going to walk around perhaps even bitter. You're going to walk around with no faith. If you don't acknowledge the fact that it hurt, there's no possibility to get that wound healed, and you're going to be a victim forever until you say, ouch. So the first thing that I would do is say, Hey, acknowledge the fact that it hurt. You're disappointed. You're mad at life. You're mad at God. You're mad at whoever's on the other side of it. Just get it out. It's okay to not be okay. That'd be the first step. Then assess it. Okay, so is there a lesson in here? I think with every loss, there's a lesson. So what am I supposed to learn? And you hear that all time, there's laws.

But no, really do it. There's something. I know it hurt, and maybe it hurts to look at it, so that's why you got to grieve it for a minute. That's fine. Grieving is fine. It's part of the process. But then really get in wear it with an open mind, get ego out of the way, stop pointing fingers, don't blame anybody. What can I learn from this mistake? Study it, do an autopsy on that loss, that failure, whatever. Look at it. And you're going to find something in it. There's an insight there. There's something in that thing. See, it's not all dead. There's something alive in there.

When that show took a nose dive and the Denver thing happened and you lost money, when you didn't know what was going to be the next opportunity, what has happened to you since then that's been a really good opportunity that you never even saw happen? Oh, goodness. That came from those fail. If those things happen, you wouldn't have been able to do XYZ. What was that?

First of all, it was a shift in my mind. Here's the thing, how many people that aren't fundamentally in the entertainment industry sell a television show to one of the biggest studios? It's Disney, ABC. First of all, who does that? So I was over here crying and looking at my wounds about it not going to series, and we sold a show to ABC. If I didn't do anything else in life, take the six billion people on the planet, how many of them have sold a show about their life, mind you, to ABC studios? That can't be taken away from- Very few. Very few.

With Kerry Washington attached.

With Kerry Washington, freaking Kerry Washington. Right. Well, now we're friends and family. How does that even happen? So it shifted my perspective. Tere, you're looking at this wrong. Yeah, it didn't go there, but dude, you played in the game, boy. You didn't go to USA cinema. You don't know anything about that. Well, you know a little bit, but that's not your space. You don't sell shows. You're not a showrunner. What are you talking about? So it shifted my perspective and it created a resilience in me. And now I'm a beast. I'm a beast not because I have all these accolades, and I've got things that I'm proud of, and I'll share that with you, but not because of that. I'm a beast because no matter what comes my way, I don't give a flip. I'm going to overthink. Flip. Come on, Sabah. I'm I'm going to overcome it. I'm going to find the treasure in that trial.

Tell me the treasure. What have you found?

Well, so one perspective. There's a powerful thing about knowing that no matter whatever comes your way, you're going to survive it. First of all, that's gold in and of itself. Like, I can't lose, or even if I lose, I'm never a loser. So that was big. But then this book, honestly, this book The Balanced that I wrote, that's a whole nother subject. It's great, but the process. I tell people this. I'm very, very vulnerable with you. I tell people this, I almost died writing this book. And you're like, What do you mean? My mom heard me say that once publicly. She called me, Man, what do you mean? You're on my diet. I'm like, Mom, chill out. Hold on. But what I mean by it is that this book was supposed to come out in October of 2020. It doesn't come out when it comes out. We all know what When it comes out. It kept getting pushed back. I pushed it back several times. I got halfway through writing it, and I stopped and started over. I'm not sure if you... I think you've written a book or whatever.

I've written a few books, yeah.

So you know, like halfway, you're like, praise God.

I just finished my book. My new book is coming out in December. First of all, I find the process to be so hard. People don't understand. It's the most exhausting, stressful experience. It seems like very nice and la-di-da.

Terrible. Oh, it's the hardest thing.

So I found it hard.

And I do, too. This was extra hard. This was like... So I get halfway through it, and then my agent reads it, and she's like, Tori, this is not your best. And she was right. And she's major. I mean, Jan Miller, she does everybody. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she does... So you got to like... If Jan tells you that this is not- Good enough. Good enough, you got it. So I start over from scratch. Now, just imagine getting halfway through a book with the publisher deadline looming and starting from scratch and you're pushing it back. But I did it. But during the process, man, I had some dark moments where I felt like, Man, you're not good enough. Again, that voice, I call it night, where that voice comes in, You're not good enough. You don't have it. What are you doing? You're a loser. You are, I mean, loud. I remember this moment.

I write- I'm only laughing because I totally understand. I know what you're talking about.

It's the worst. I'm in my hotel room. I always take several weeks away to write. I'm in my hotel room and I have this onslaught of thoughts that you're a loser. You can't do this. Look at you. You're an embarrassment. You're ashamed. You got this deal and you can't deliver. I don't think it's uncommon to have to overcome negative thoughts. But this was different. This was like, I was being oppressed by these thoughts, and I'm by myself, and I'm in this hotel room, and I'm panicking. I can't sleep. It's going crazy. And there was a moment where I realized if I didn't fight back, whatever this onslaught was would have wiped me out. If I would have given into that, I understand how people... Because you always say, I never kill myself. Let me tell you something. That gave me just a little bit of a taste of what sustained negative thinking will do if you don't fight back. And I knew that if I didn't fight these thoughts, my life was getting ready to change, not for the better, forever. And so something in me just said, Hell, no. It was just a fortitude.

I just said, No. And out of that moment, man, my creativity opened up. That's how the character Knight even appears in the book, because I had to fight off Knight to write this thing. And so So all of that, overcoming these setbacks, these losses, developed something in me that I think is going to help a lot of people, and I'm very proud of it.

Yeah. Let's talk with your book for a second. We might as well. It's been like five hours. It's all good. But you know because it's called balance. So how would you define... What's your definition of balance? Because you've had to figure it out through this whole process, right? I've had to. And like you said, the process of even writing the book has been very hard because you're doing a lot of other things also on top of it. It's exhausting. So in all of this, how do you define balance?

So I used to define balance the way everybody else does. I've got all these responsibilities. How do I effectively manage these responsibilities and divide myself up so that I can successfully be successful in all these things I'm responsible for? I used to feel that way. I realized that's not what balance is. First of all, it's impossible. I can't give Sarah 10% of me and my kids another 10%, my business another %. The church and investors. I can't do that. So for me, balance is not dividing yourself up in response to things that you're responsible for. It's becoming all of yourself, becoming your whole self, and then giving your best self to things in sequence. And so I think that balance is really about wholeness. I don't think it's a discipline. We've enough books about work-life balance. They're effective, but that's not where it's at, because, Listen, I tried it. I tried it, Jen. I tried, okay, on Friday, I'm going to take my son, Isaiah, out. Thursday is going to be date night. I'm going to spend time with my little girl on this day. And you know what I did because I wasn't balanced?

I gave them a crappy version of me. So I did spend the time, I could check off the time. But what did I give them? I didn't give them my best. I gave them a formula. It's not a formula. Balanced is about being balanced. It's a journey to becoming your best self through disciplines and steps that I talk about so that you can do all things well. You can do all things well. You just can't do all things well at the same time.

I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. It's not about like, well, okay, I'm going to spend 50% of my time at work and the other 50% I'm going to do at home. I've never heard anyone describe it like that, but I think that is actually a more realistic way of looking at it. It's attainable. Because I don't think anyone truthfully... You can't balance things like a seesaw. 20% goes to my kids, 10% goes to my husband. That's a very good explanation. You talk about this in the book. How do you... Given What are some indications of when someone is out of balance?

Oh, yeah. There's a few. There are several. That can be a ton. For me, stagnation is a sign that I'm in balance. I think that when we are balanced, when we're aligned, when we are We're working the disciplines and we're in our flow, there's no such thing as stagnation. You're innovative, you're creative. We're creative beings. We're supposed to always have something to give. Stagnation is a sign. I think that weariness is a sign. And that's the difference between being tired and weary. I describe weariness as the gradual gravitational pull down to the tarmac of disaster. Just know the disaster is on his way if you respond to your weariness, a jealousy and envy, to be honest with you. When you're balanced, you have such an affirmation and personal affirmation, and you're so connected with victory and winning that anytime you see success, you feel connected to it. You're not jealous of it. If you see somebody win, and you're like, Yeah, that's what we do, baby. You give a high five. And so jealousy and envy is part of it. Declining thought life. If all of a sudden you You always go to the lowest possible interpretation of a comment, of a conversation, of someone's action.

You don't know why they did that. But what did you mean when you said that? Your thought life declines. So there are several, and you just have to perceive them and not tolerate them. Listen, when I'm off, I got to go get balanced because I'm not going to be a great husband, not going to be a great parent, not going to be a great leader. I'm not going to be a strategic business person. And so I just I won't tolerate it. So I'm looking for signs that show me you're out of balance. You need to do something about it.

So how do people get balance? What's the first steps? Let's say, okay, you could be stagnating at your career. You could be stagnant because you're just not feeling productive. The weariness is an interesting one because it's like you feel yourself. It's like what I think that you're saying. It's like you feel yourself declining a a little bit, right? You're not yourself. Yes. Give us some... How do you start the process of being balanced?

Love it. The first step is no step at all, actually. The first step is to stop. That's why people... It's the funniest thing in the world, people are like, I just try to get balance in my life, but what are they doing? They're moving. I need balance, but you're telling me you need balance while you got a phone in your hand, you're tweeting over here, you're texting, you're driving to your next meeting. Dude, of course you don't have balance. So the first step is to stop. I've learned that, first of all, people think it takes more faith to start than stop. I disagree. I think it takes more faith to actually stop, to come to a halt than it does to go forward. There's this biblical concept called Sabbath that I think it's pretty universal. Well, I'm Jewish. Jewish, you know. Exactly.

You're saying it like, I don't know. I'm teaching you right. Exactly. I was on the cover of the Jewish Journal. Were you? Yes, I was. No way.

Yes. I was in the Jewish Journal years ago. Oh, you were? Yeah, I used to be on the board- Can you grab one on the bottom of the...

No, not the drawer right there. Tell me. I want to know.

Yeah, I used to be on the board of an organization called the American Friends of Magen de Vida Don. It's the Ambulance Service in Israel. Really? Yeah. I sat on the board for that, the LA chapter. I love Israel. I love Jewish people. I love everybody.

I like to hear that because that's what it's really. This was a couple of months ago. Oh, come on. Can I tell you something which is this? For those of... Okay, I'm only showing this to him because people laugh and mock, but I will say that got so much more traction than Forbes, than all these other biggies, because I don't know. I think that there is something to be said about being on the cover of- The cover. That's a big deal.

That's the major. The Jewish Journal, you kidding me? Right? Yeah, that's heavy.

That's right. It's good enough for Jerry Seinfeld. Right? So thank you, David Suisa, who's the editor-in-chief.

I love it. Yeah. Yeah, but it's like, so the first step is to stop. And I love that word, Sabbath, because that Hebrew word doesn't mean to rest, even though rest is true. It means to stop. It literally means to cease. And no one wants to do that. It's almost like our world is so noisy right now. Noisy is normal.

Well, it's It's all about distraction, right? If you stop and you don't have a distraction, then you really have to start focusing on what's the noise, right? Which is a lot of times people do not want to have that type of stillness and quiet because then they have to look inward and be like, Oh, my God, this isn't good, and this isn't good, and that's wrong, and whatever. So if you keep yourself busy or distracted, then it's much easier in short gratification. Oh, yeah.

I know all about that. I went through a divorce in 2012, and it was my first time being alone in 17 years.

Were you married for 17?

I was married for 17. I got married pretty young. I was married for 17 years. She was a wonderful person, just not for me.

Right, I got it.

I was single now. I don't know anything about that. I'm single. I'm a pastor. I'm like- Are you allowed to date?

I guess technically you are, right? You were, obviously, but I'm sorry, again.

We started this, I'm a grown.

I'm a grown-ass man. I know. It's At least I got it. Okay, but a Reverend can go out up with people?

Yeah, I think so. Again, it depends on your denomination, all that stuff. It varies. But what I needed to do after 17 years of marriage is chill. Tare, chill out. You don't even know what date. What are you doing? You're 40 years. What are you talking about? You're 30, 39, 40 years old. What are you trying to do here? And so I told myself that I was going to not date or whatever, and somebody came along and we need to start Starting a date.

How did you guys meet then? On Tinder? Are you allowed to be on Tinder?

That's hilarious. I'm sure there's some passes on Tinder. Were you on Tinder? I wasn't on Tinder. Bubble? No. Match? No. I didn't know.

I didn't think related Because then I would have had to acknowledge that I was actually looking.

Christian means it, right? Christian means it. Let me tell you something. I would not do that because I love Christians, but Christians is great. Give me somebody. We're going to need it. Right. No, I'm not doing the Christian thing. We had a professional relationship, and she- Why did you meet her?

Was she a pastor then?

No, Not at all. She had fashion? She was in fitness.

She was in fitness? What was she doing in fitness? I didn't know her.

What was she doing? I'm not even told your name, so you might know her, but I don't know who was her.

I'm talking with Sarah. Oh, no. You're not at Sarah.

I'm not at Sarah. Oh, no. No, we're talking about when you need to be alone to do your stuff.

Oh, you're not at Sarah yet. Not at Sarah yet. You're having to be alone, and then someone set you up with this girl?

Well, we had a professional relationship. Was she your trainer Yes, you were so good. Okay.

I'm like- I'm going to go. Well, who is she?

She was my trainer.

Where? At a gym or at a private gym?

She would come train me at my place. Then she steps to me one day. It was all the time. It was so funny. Let me tell you what's funny about it. She was such a mac, and she was a great person, but she was such a mac because we're having lunch one day, and it was just like, we're just having lunch. You're Cool. I'm cool. You're training me. And then she lunches over and she's like, So when are we going to start playing this game? And I'm like, Playing a game? I'm not playing a game. She's like, Come on, you know you're interested in me. And I'm like, Okay, because I was so vulnerable. And granted, she's gorgeous.

You're not hiring a guy trainer. You're hiring a hot girl. Are you not?

Yeah.

Okay, there you go. Okay, there it is right there.

But that wasn't what she was really good at what she did. I'm sure. Right?

She was great. She was just amazing. She was great. Okay, so then you guys started to date then after she confronted you?

Yeah, and we started to date, which was so stupid.

I think she's not your trainer anymore.

No, she's not. We ended that. But I think the issue is I needed time to myself, but I wasn't ready for alone. I wasn't ready for what I might find in the silence. It's scary. In the silence. It didn't go well. Finally, I said, Look, why are we pretending? This is not right. I broke it off.

Then- How long were you dating for?

A few months. It wasn't very... I guess a few months could be considered a long time, but a few months.

Did you find a new trainer?

I did find a new trainer. Actually, no, I stopped training, and I started just doing what she taught me.

Oh, and you were safer that way.

Yeah, I think so. I was too vulnerable. I was open. I had never been by myself since college. I think what's funny is guys sometimes are blinded from the fact that people might want to have a relationship with it. I was so naive. I thought that people were friends. I had one lady tell me, How real can we be on this podcast?

Very real. I mean, how real.

I had one lady tell me, and she was actually, This is bad.

This is so bad. Good. The badder, the better. This is bad. Better than the badder, whatever.

She was She basically told me, Hey, I can sleep with you, and it won't be anything. I'll even come to your church, sit in the pews, and it won't be anything. She was like, And she meant it. I'm like, Oh, it's real out here.

Oh, you didn't realize it?

No, I was in a bubble.

Oh, my God. First of all, can I tell you something? It's why the girls are worse than guys. I learned.

I freaking learned. It was like- Did you really not know this? I didn't know. No, because I I've been married for 17 years. And how many of those years? Twelve of those years, I was a person of faith. So I was walking this really pretty straight path, and I was faithful to my wife and that stuff. So I was shielded. I was shielded. So probably being married to her was probably a blessing in the sky because it shielded me.

Well, but I would imagine if you're getting to be very popular in that space and you're on a stage, and you would have a lot of groupy girls who would go there, or guys also, maybe, who just had the hots for you. Yeah, but I- It's not like you're a dog. It's not like you're a 100-obese old man.

I think I was distracted by my work, and I had to be distracted by my work because my marriage wasn't great. So I was really locked, some folks in focus and work.

We're being in there.

And one thing I wasn't going to do is violate the integrity of why somebody's coming to our church. So I could maybe feel the energy of some people there that are checking, but I'm You can feel that where you want to. I'm not going to play into it. You're not going to bring it. You're not going into that. No, that's a whole another thing. I'm afraid of God about stuff like that.

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A little over a year.

Oh, wow. And you didn't date anybody for a year?

No. After the trainer, there were a couple of other people that were short-lived, again, still battling with this not wanting to be by myself, lonely, very short-lived. And then I got to a place. I'm like, You know what, man? If you know it's right, why are you entertaining it? And I got to this place where I said, You know what? I'm not going to date anybody until someone shows up that I believe has the capacity, the potential to be my wife because I want to be married again. Marriage is great if you're with the right person. So I stopped, and I stopped dating and I was by myself, and my first book was coming out, so I had a good distraction. I get a call from one of my friends. His name is Derek, who works for TD Jake's. He's like, Hey, Tare, I've got somebody in town that I want you to meet, she's got a book coming out, and I just think you should meet her. It's Bishop Jake's daughter. Now, I love my father-in-law. I think he is brilliant. He's brilliant, he's a blessed man and all that I have. But when I consider my father-in-law and I consider my father-in-law and I think about his daughter, all I can do is see him with a dress on.

I don't want to date someone who looks like my father-in-law with a dress on. He's a big burly You know what I mean? Yeah. That's with all due respect.

No, he's a big man. I understand what you're saying.

I wasn't expecting for Sarah to walk to the door. We met at the Peninsula in Beverly Hills for lunch. I'm sitting down for breakfast. I'm sitting down and she walks in and I'm like, What? She's got on jeans. She's got ripped jeans on. She's got boots up to her. And she's bouncing around and stuff like that. I'm like, Hi.

Yeah, you're so confused.

Yeah, it was weird. And so we had a phenomenal conversation, a wonderful conversation about life. Our views were very similar about purpose and about what it means to be called now and what the world needs. She wasn't a minister at all.

What was she doing?

She was an author. She was a blogger and an author.

For what? On what topic?

Her first book was called Lost and Found. She was telling her story, getting pregnant at 13 years old and having a baby at 14 while being in this high-profile family. She was inspirational, a women's magnet or blogged it well.

Was she Was she well known in that already or not yet?

She was known, but not... In my world, she wasn't known at all.

No, but was her blog very popular? Her blog was popular, for sure. So if she had a book deal, she must have had some popularity around her.

Popularity, plus she's Bishop Jake's daughter.

Right. I'm going to say. How long has he been around, by the way? Oh, God.

He's had that church in Dallas for 20 years. He's probably been popular for 25 years, wildly popular for 20 years for sure.

Right. She comes from, being his daughter, then she's well known in that space.

Exactly. That's true. Yeah, being there. She's young, but yes, to your point.

Yeah. How old is she at this point?

She's 25. Okay. We meet. We have a great conversation. There was definitely chemistry, but not romantic chemistry. I wasn't looking at her like that because remember, my mentality is, I'm not touching anybody unless they have a wife potential. To be honest, she's younger than me. I did have a little list, to be honest with you, about what I wanted to look like. She wasn't in the age bracket, to be honest with you. There were just things- How old is she now? She's 34 in July. We got a 15 and a half year age difference. We have a great talk, great breakfast. I told her, I said, You know what? I want you to come and speak at our church. I think my people will love you because you're not churchy. You got on jeans. My people, you're young, you get it. Your messaging is good. I want you to come and speak in my church on Mother's Day, unbeknownst to me, that she didn't speak. She wasn't a speaker. She had done some talks, but she had never done a church message at all, ever. I had no idea. Here's a crazy thing about that.

I didn't see her that way then. I met her and I felt like I needed to protect her because I knew what it was like in the church world to be like me in that you're not super religious and you're popular and you have this charisma and you draw people. Sometimes the church world gets up tight and you're in Hollywood and they just assume that you are whatever they think about us in Hollywood. It gets weird. I felt like, Man, this girl, she's going to need some protection. I didn't know. Bishop Jakes, I knew who he was, but I didn't follow him, to be honest with you, because he's brilliant, and I was missing out by not following him. But his style is a little different from mine. He's more- Big. Yes.

He's- Dominating.

Yes. I knew who he was. I respect him. How can you not? He's in the faith world. He's massive. With Sarah, it was almost like my eyes were vealed from seeing her in that way. I did feel like you're probably going to need some mentorship because I didn't even think, who am I? Your dad is Bishop Jakes. But I knew that Bishop Jakes, it's a different type of thing that he does. He's more in the church world. I saw Sarah as having more of a pop culture type of grace, similar to mine.

You saw that in her?

Oh, for sure.

And she didn't see that?

No.

And so you're the one that brought her into this space.

Absolutely. Fast forward, we exchanged numbers. She tweeted out. She flirt with me in a tweet. She tweeted out, Met with Tere Roberts. He's brilliant. I'm like, careful, don't use those words.

Yeah, exactly.

And then I went to her father's conference in Orlando, Florida. We were texting each other, and then she approached me and said, I'm coming to LA in weeks.

Well, didn't she invite you to the conference? Because you weren't following- The Derek guy, the guy who- Oh, Derek invited you? Okay.

We get there. Sarah, we miraculously ended up sitting next to each other on the last day of conference. This is really crazy. There was a closing prayer that Bishop Jackson said, Oh, do a closing prayer. Grab the hand of the person that's next to you. I take her hand, and it was crazy. I felt like, this is going to sound weird, but we've been talking about intuition. I felt like she was my wife. I wouldn't be able to articulate that now, but what I felt was a familiarity just at the touch. I'm like, What is this? The prayer is over. She turns to me and she says, Tare, I'm coming to LA in two weeks, and you are going to take me to dinner. I'm like, Okay.

Okay.

The rest was his dinner. We shut dinner down.

Where'd you go for dinner? Where'd you take her?

Remember the The Capitol Grill used to be open right there at the Beverly Center. It's closed now. Oh, my God. Which I'm hurt because I proposed there. Our first date was there.

Really? Yeah. I used to like that place, too.

Yeah, it was great. So we went to the Capitol Grill and we talked all night. We both had been divorced and our perspective on marriage, what marriage should be, why we were in those marriages. So for the time being and the decisions, the way we thought, what we learned, it was like talking to myself. It was crazy. Really? Shut the capital grill down, and we knew pretty quickly that we were each other's person. But as far as speaking stuff like that, Sarah wasn't doing it. Her coming to one, and then I started asking her to pray after the service. She would do the prayer, and then she started preaching there. So literally, even though her father has this major mega church, one became the platform that sprung her out into-Wow. And she would tell you this. It's not just me. No, no.

That's amazing. Hold No, sorry. I thought I was going to sneak. Sorry. Allergy. Sorry. So then when she first spoke, was she awkward? Was it good?

I think it was good. She was nervous, but she always has been a woman of substance. I think that she has grown in skill, in comfortability, in communication. She's more knowledgeable. She's got more to pull from, and she's a beast. If you ever listen to her, that woman, she's my favorite speaker. She's my favorite preacher of all times. I mean, even her dad is made in love with me. But she's got... She's like, this is going to sound funny. She's like a little bit of me and a little bit of her and a little bit ham in all of herself. And she is fierce. I love to hear her speak.

She's very good. When she was on the podcast, I told you a year ago, I listened to a bunch of her stuff, and she's excellent. Yeah, she's amazing. Where Where does it come from? How do you guys even put these things together over and over? Because you got to do it every week, right? Every week.

Someone asked me, it's funny, it's become so natural that I forgot that it's actually a phenomenon that you can come up with life-changing, literally life-changing content every single week. I think for me, it comes from a couple of things. One, things that I'm learning recently. I think that in order to be a good communicator and a good minister or life coach or whatever you want to call yourself, your change people's lives, you have to be growing spiritually yourself. There are disciplines that I work every day to keep me aligned, to keep me really connected to my spirituality. One. Two, you got to love people. Even when I talk to people or before I get up on the stage to speak, I'm turned around and I'm looking at the audience because I want to see them. I want to see, I want to feel you. I want to look in your eyes. I want to I love you. I have to love you in order to be effective. So I need to pause and look at you. And a lot of times it's weird. It's going to sound strange, but I can feel people. I can feel what they're going through and what they need.

Really? Yeah, it's really, really. That's why I can't write I have points, but I can't write my sermon out for word for word because I respond to who's in the room, and I respond to how they respond. And so if I say something that really resonates, or maybe it intrigues a person, but they need more, then I'll work three or four analogies until I feel like the room got it and I can move on.

You'll think about them on the fly?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Fifty, at least, % of my message is extemporaneous. It's like right there. I have a theme of somewhere that I want us to go, but it all depends on who's in the room. We used to do multiple services, and each service would be different, although the theme was the same because of who's energy is in the room.

And you would do one sermon every Sunday. How How many people would show up?

Our theater is supposed to hold about 800 people, but we learned how to put chairs down and get the lobby going. So it'll max out at about 1200. And we were doing three services a Sunday before COVID-19 hit.

Three on Sunday. Three on Sunday. Eight o'clock, 10 o'clock.

Yeah. Back then it was nine o'clock because it's LA. Ain't nobody coming at eight o'clock.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to say by yourself, fricken for being on.

Exactly. Good morning, everyone. All four of you. 9: 00 AM, 11: 00 AM, 1: 00 PM, and then we would do a midweek service.

By the way, how much is a membership?

There's no membership.

It's free? Yeah. Okay, so how do you guys make money as a church then? It's a nonprofit, you said.

It's a nonprofit, yes. Through donations.

So all donation-based?

All donation makes sense.

You guys put around a bucket to people?

We used to before COVID-19. We used to, but yeah, we passed a bucket around. We just trust that, Hey, you see the value of this, not just for your life, but for what we're doing in the community. Practical stuff. Because, yeah, the spiritual stuff is majorly important. We totally get that. But people got practical needs. There's some people that you're never going to... Well, I won't say you. Who knows? But you never may believe the way I believe. But you still need to eat. You still need job support. You still need all these other things. And people respond to that. People want to give to organizations that are making a difference.

Do most people give when the bucket goes by?

I think so. It's hard to tell. I get a report. I can't see who's giving what. It's You can anyway.

How do you know? If it's going around- That's true.

Well, you don't have to. You can give anonymously, but most people want the tax break.

Oh, so does it come around with a piece of paper that says, Here's, you can tell it, Evan- Yeah, you can do that.

Or now it's all automated. So you can text to give, and you've got a profile set up. So you later text the number and the amount that you want to give, and it goes to that. And so on our back-end, we have computers that track who gives what. So at the end of the year, they get their giving statement, and they can deduct those gifts from their tax returns.

But in person, when the bucket goes by, there's no technology, is there, or nothing?

No. I don't even know. We're starting back. I don't even know if they're going to do buckets. We're probably still going to be digital. People give stocks and Bitcoin, all that stuff.

But then on digital, how do they do it, though? If you're watching, how do they do it?

It's a text.

So they start off with the-That's with the text. Okay, It's a text. So you send them a text first?

With their form. Okay. And so that captures their data, their name and address, so we can send out the mailing statement, email address. And so now every time they text, the system already knows.

It's them. It's them.

So it tallies up their giving.

So interesting.

Yeah. None of this stuff I knew about when I started, I just said, Look, I want to help people. Here it is. Go for it.

How much do people normally give? What's the going rate?

Well, it depends on how much they make. So some people, and I I think in- In person first.

Let's go person versus online.

So there are principles, and I'm pretty sure I think this is the same in synagogues, but there's a principle called the tithe, which means a 10th. Some people who really, really are followers and believe in the church and what we're doing give a 10th of their increase. I literally 10% of everything I make, I give to our church. And that's where I start. And then beyond that, I help all other places.

This is where it's different. When you're at a synagogue, typically you have to pay a membership. And then also you give donations based on where you are in terms of your economic place in life. And there are people, it's like the 80/20 rule, as in life. You have a very small percentage of people who give the majority of it. But because it was done how you guys I do it with the bucket, and I'm always saying because I remember when I was at Joel Olson, the bucket was coming by and I was like, What the hell is this bucket? What's the bucket? I thought that was only in movies. I didn't realize it actually happens. People are taking out money and throwing it in the bucket. I didn't know if it was the same because if they're Coming weekly, it's different if you just come once in a while. But if also they're coming weekly, you're giving cash or how much do you normally get in person?

It depends.

From a dollar to- Yeah, people give a dollar, 20.

It depends on where they are now. Our church is a pretty young church, and so young people a lot of times have young money. I think that we do well and stay afloat because there are a lot of young people who do so. But then you're right, it is the 80/20 rule. There's some people that do very well, and some of them aren't even local. They'll be either overseas or in another state, and they're multimillionaires, and so their tide is significant.

Well, yeah. So what I think is doing digital is probably way better. I mean, you're making more money digitally, I would imagine.

The only problem with that is that- You're reaching more people. Yeah. The only problem with that is that people who are only connected digitally don't give as much because I don't want to suspect it. But if the bucket comes, no bucket can come around.

Right. They can't see you. Yeah. I think a lot of people, when they see the bucket, they see other people doing it, and they feel guilty if they don't. It's like peer pressure in a way. Exactly. Because I didn't know, and I'm like, Oh, I guess people beside me, they're giving. I better give my money, too. Because you don't know. You want to feel inclusive. But I was always curious about that because also when people do donation, you tend to make more money because it's like, psychologically, when people feel like, Well, I'm not paying for a membership. I get it because some of the people, they feel more generous to be giving money because it's that way versus a finite amount of money. So true.

And then from a business perspective, you would almost want to be able to quantify. If we've got a thousand members and they're giving a thousand dollars a month, then you've got a million dollar budget. So that obviously would feel more safe, but it doesn't work that way. We have zero commitment. And you have You have to trust that people- You have to trust, for sure.

But you have a huge, I mean, congregation. You guys are raking it in. I mean, let's be honest.

Not really. But I'll tell you when we did well, COVID helped us because one thing, you're a nonprofit, So literally, you're not supposed to be profitable. Isn't that interesting?

I know. Most nonprofits can make a lot of money, though.

Oh, for sure, because people are generous and they support. But I'm not saying you're supposed to spend it all. But if you're like, You're a nonprofit and you're just growing and growing and growing and growing, and there's no outgo, outflow into the community, into the world, that's a little tricky. But COVID helped us in that because we couldn't use the facility, our overhead dropped significantly. Our donations, they were pretty flat. I think we jumped. Actually, no, we jumped 7%. No, 7% last year. The first year, we were pretty flat. But because the overhead was down, it was awesome because we were able to do more and went at a time when the world needed more. Instead of putting money into the building and all the things that go into managing the building, we were doing all radical altruistic things, which I think brought the church even to a greater place of prominence.

I'm just curious, how many people do what you do in this unconventional way? Do you have real competition in this way? That's funny.

I understand what you mean by competition. It would be You know what I mean? Yeah, I told you. But I want to preface that in that faith world, even though the faith world can be more competitive than corporate America, and let's not even go there. But in that world, you're supposed to not be competing because everybody is a servant of God I agree.

But with that being said.

That being said. So we're just keeping it at 100.

Yeah.

I think that there are, thank God, I think that there are leaders who are being more open, being more authentic, being more relevant.

I'm sorry. There's a guy that I'm thinking of. I think he had a sermon or something in Beverly Hills at a hotel.

I think it was- Judah. Judah Smith.

Is that his name?

Judah. Yeah. He was doing something I think it was one of those hotels on Wilmington. Then there's got the Saban. Judah Smith.

Is that his name?

Yeah, Judah. He's a young guy.

Okay, so he's a young guy, too, yeah? Yeah.

Judah is about my age, maybe a couple of years younger.

Oh, okay. Are you sure it's the same guy? I thought this guy was, unless I'm just so old now that even... He was considered to be the rock star young guy. Could be Judah. He was bringing all these entertainment people, and I was invited to go a few times. Yeah, that's juda.

Yeah, that's him? Yeah, Judah. Jason Kennedy was there. Yes. Yeah, that's Judah.

Yes. How is he different than you?

First of all, I love Judah. I think juda is an incredible human being. I love his broad perspective in bringing people together in the faith world. I think that I'm probably a little more raw than Judah.

Oh, okay.

Because his father was a pastor, and they had a massive church in Seattle, Washington.

I didn't know that. Yeah.

I love him. I think that he is dynamic, greatly dynamic. There are some similarities, in fact, because he does draw a lot of entertainment people. But I think, and I don't want to say but, I'll just say and. He's raw. I'm pretty You're doggone raw. You know what I mean? I'm probably... Maybe that's why. Maybe that is not a good thing. I don't know. I think he's maybe more polished, where I'm a little more I'm polished, but I also will get to a place that I will get greedy to get you. If I've got to get down there and just tell it like it is, is, is, is, is or ego-centric.

Nothing's really off limits, so to speak.

I mean, some things are, but not really. If I got to show you my scars to really connect with you, I'm going to do it. He probably is, too, in his own way. But I think we have a lot of similarities for sure.

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You obviously have this church, you have this book. What else do you do business-wise? Do you have other entities that you do?

I do. We've got a multimedia company. Our thrust right now is the music. But what we did in the production space through Kerry and everything was done through our entertainment company. We're always looking for, especially because we attract so many young people, we're always looking for shows and concepts that we can We can use and promote and push. Some of the doors that have opened up to me are in entertainment, and so we're always looking for it. That's one. I also have Touré enterprises is all things book and speaking. I travel and speak to leadership events, to some business events, and I've got that going, too. We also have the Tour, the Woman Evolved Tour.

That's also under the- Yeah, that's a separate entity. Okay. Women Evolve is a separate entity. Yeah. Are you traveling a lot now with speaking, or Sarah is speaking a lot, or are you guys tag team? Do you guys go together?

It depends. We both have our separate things. There's some things that make sense for us to do together.

What do you guys do together? Where is it? Under the church, you guys are both under the same YouTube channel?

Is it- Yeah, that's actually what's crazy. That was actually my personal YouTube channel that I built. So even if you go to it now, it's youtube. Com/tour Roberts.

That's you, right.

Yeah. And it all just dovetailed in together. But she has her own YouTube channel as well.

And it's called Women Evolve?

It's called Sarah James Roberts. Oh, okay. Not Women Evolve. And Women Evolve comes through there. But Women Evolve is an entity. And under that entity, and under that entity, which she's a CEO, I was the CEO. I'm like, I can't do it all. So we hired a COO, and now we're just partners an entity. Oh, wow. But that has so many tentacles. It's touring, it's speaking, it's obviously merchandise. There's the store, it's clothing, it's podcast.

Are you talking about yours or hers?

That's hers. Some of those entities we share in, but that's- But you guys are also your own personalities, right?

So you have your own entity, which is the speaking, the tours, the books.

I also have a leadership organization, a leadership development organization. So that's part of the speaking, but it's also separately. It's a separate entity, separately branded, which is because I'm big on... I love leadership, and I just love talking about it. I love entrepreneurship. I love empowering people, particularly people who just didn't grow up around information that helps them in the area of entrepreneurship. So I've got that stream as well. But we believe in multiple streams. If you're sitting around waiting on, forget it.

You got to make your own opportunities. Absolutely. I know you're going to your answer is going to be, but I'm going to ask anyway, do you guys ever get competitive with each other because you guys are in the same lane?

Well, that's a great question. I think if we do, it is not spoken. I think that I wouldn't call it competitive because we complement each other so well and because we're really trying to help people and we only win. Helping people, to really be effective at helping people, it requires one another's support. We'll be in there and it's 5,000 people in a room. We ain't got time to be competing, babe. I need you to win. I need you to win this moment. And we'll high five later. So it's not competition, but it is I think I'm a better speaker. I'm a better marketer because of her. I think we sharpen each other. So right now I'm doing this and she's me at my best because I wrote this book. I'm doing these interviews with great outlets like this one. She's seeing me at the top of my game. I'm going to travel. I'm going to New York and a couple of the Dupres there. I think that it feeds, and she had her turn with Woman Evolved, and she was here. I think it feeds. It's not competition because competition is I'm competing against you.

And some might say that that's healthy, but that can become a little carnal. It can become a little egoistic.

I know what you're saying. It's not in a negative way. It's more of a healthy competition.

Hey, you killed that. Like, wow, I'm going to kill my next thing. I think it's more like that.

And you guys help each other out? Oh, yeah.

We laugh about this, but it's true. When you see one of us, you see both of us. Like, literally, I can feel her in my head right now saying, You better. That's the thing. You better. You know what I mean? She recorded some stuff yesterday, and I wasn't there. But when you see one, you see both because we're two pees in the pot, but we're so for each other. That's my best friend in the whole world. People talk about this concept of ball and chain. Who are you married to?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That woman ain't no ball and chain, man. I'd spend every day with... I never get tired of her.

I never get tired of her. That's a great place to be. Yeah. That's a great place. Then is your business... So your business, her business, is there Any affiliation with Bishop Jake said? That's all just in my head.

There's one. Here's what happened. I had one church, and I built that. It's been what it's been for years. It was a mega, quote, unquote mega church when I met Sarah. In fact, that's why Derek wanted to introduce Sarah to me to read her book, because here was this mega church in LA. Now, of course, Bishop would be a giga. It's a mega. It should be like a mega, mega church.

Did she promote her book in his church, too, by the way?

I'm sure. Yeah, for sure. He did the foreword and everything on her first book. But it was established. Then Sarah and I get married, and now Sarah is a part of my church. It's me and her now. Now instead of one, it's two. We were just rocking that out, and that was great. But the church in Denver, which is one of my father-in-law's churches, the pastor there had a moral failure, and they had to ask him to leave the church. So now the church is headless. It has no overseer. Bishop is the big dog, but no person on the ground to run that church. So being a good son-in-law, I said, You know what? We can do it. I'm not going to let anything that you're doing fall to the ground. So I'm going to do both. I'm not going to give up LA. I'll move to Denver because it's going to need oversight. Got to build team, leadership, lick the wounds, hit things up. I took over that church. Now, it was going to be a little odd to say I'm the pastor of one church or one LA and the pastor of Potter's House LA.

They've been rocking with me since 2004. How can I, from a branding perspective, present something that says it's still both? What we did was, since that church was called the Potter's House of Denver, which was owned and run and headed up by a bishop, I said, We're going to make LA a Potter's House Church, but we're still going to be LA. We're going to call it the Potter's House at One LA. At the time, I thought it was a good idea because it makes them feel like, Hey, we're just merging into a bigger situation with him. I just wanted them to feel like I wasn't leaving them. The only problem is, and I realize this now, that one had a lot of equity. I didn't realize that. My father-in-law, he had a talk show he did, and he had to come out here to do the talk show. And everybody on set, the producers, down to the craft service people, and they're like, Yeah, no, I go to one church. He's like, Whoa, this church has a massive brand. We did. In hindsight, Wow.

Yeah.

And so people still, even to this day, even when it was the Potter's house at one LA, it was still called One Church. That's how strong the brand was, and it was unique for all those years. But I changed it. I think It was a mistake, to be honest with you. It wasn't a mistake in my intention to unify and to let my LA people know that I'm still there. But I think if I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have taken that other entity, but that's the whole other story. But anyway. So when the pandemic hit, everybody went online. Everybody went online. We lived in Denver for a year. I moved back because I just My family thrived in LA. Thank God, we didn't get rid of our house in Calabasas. Our family thrived. And I moved back, started doing Denver remotely. And then when pandemic, and when I said remotely, streaming from LA into Denver. And then when the pandemic hit, everybody was virtual. So I took Denver and, of course, LA virtual, kept our feeding center in Denver open and our local outreach to the community open. But I closed the church and made it digital only, and I decided to close it permanently with the exception of online and local outreach so that I can focus here.

When I did that, I brought the name back. And so now it's one, but to honor the Potter's House, there's a little tagline that says, A Potter's House Church. So I reclaimed one. And one is true to me. It's true to me. Anyway.

No, I like that. I feel like, How long I've been talking to you I know.

This is good. We can do this forever.

I didn't ask you any real of the questions I had written here. But getting back to your book, I think I asked you three questions about it. That's cool. I asked you about balance, and I asked you about how to know if you're in balance, how to get in balance. Did we talk about how to get in balance, a few steps?

Yeah, we talked about the step of stopping, quieting the noise, and then we went on the tangent. Which are the first two steps?

The power of no, we didn't really speak about. We got to talk about that. Yeah, let's We're talking about the power of no. I can let you out of here. Okay. Eventually, you can come back again. But people are going to be like, What is going on? This is not Joe Rogan in 5 hours. Yeah, so please, you talk very much about this in the book, about 90% of your time, you should say no to things, not the opposite around the power of no. Why? Well, why?

Yeah, that could be the most important chapter in the book, Power of No. The reason why no is important is because yes is expensive. When you say yes to something, and it's easy to do because... Let's talk about it. Somebody presents something to you, particularly if it's a friend a mentor, somebody you want to work with, you know what I mean? And they present something to you, or an opportunity. The easiest thing to do is to say yes, because why? There's instant gratification with yes. There was no conflict. You're liked, you feel good. There's instant gratification. Okay, great. But the only thing is it feels good in that moment. But what happens later when something that you really want to do, something that you've been working your butt off for, you've been preparing for, you've been praying about, you got all your friends in, that comes up. Now you've realized the value of the yes that you gave because now you have to say no to something that matters, and then you get busy. I am dramatic when I say that you ought to have the 90, and no to yes rule. It does seem dramatic, right?

What? 90%, 9 out of 10 things things ought to be saying no to? Absolutely. Now, here's the caveat. If you have a good structure, good system around you, good staff or whatever, Then maybe it's more like 50% because your staff is screening some of the requests that come your way. So maybe you're at 50/50. But the average person who don't have gatekeepers, don't have anybody around you, you should be saying no because you want to have a healthy amount of yeses available for the just because. When I say yes, I'm committing my time, my energy, my person, and my availability. I'm a limited resource. I can't do that.

I'm flattered you're here now.

Yeah. Thank you. It's true. I'm honored. This is great. So no is everything because yes is expensive. And you know what else I like about no? No qualifies your relationships because some people, the relationship only works because you always say yes. You should just try it. Just like, let me just throw a no in here and see if they walk away. And you'll be surprised. If you're offended because I have a boundary and I'm trying to protect myself and I'm trying to better myself and I'm trying to level up, and in order to do so, I have to tell you no this one time, if you're offended by that, you're not my friend. My no just qualified the relationship. So I love no, no no, knowing.