Transcript of Episode 513: Emily Hickey: Scaling Brands, Marketing That Converts, and Building What Lasts

Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle.

Crush it. In this episode of Habits and Hustle, I sit down with Emily Hickey, co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective, one of the top performance marketing agencies working with leading consumer brands across meta, Instagram, and beyond. Emily is one of the sharpest strategic thinkers I've come across when it comes to branding, growth, and what actually drives consumer behavior. We break down what performance what performance marketing really means and why most brands waste time trying to fix what isn't working instead of doubling down on what is, and how the smartest companies think about positioning, product strategy, and identity. Emily explains core principles like Winners Win, spearpoint marketing, and why specificity always beats broad messaging. If you care about scaling a brand or understanding modern marketing with clarity, this conversation delivers. By the end, you'll see why I think of Emily as the Kara Swisher of marketing, direct, incisive, and unwilling to sugarcoat what actually works. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed having it. Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therisage. Their Trilight Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without.

I literally bring it with me everywhere I go, and I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where, honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therassage Tri-Light everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to therassage. Com right now and use code B BOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to theresage, T-H-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E. Com, and use code B BOLD for 15% off any of their products. Guys, today we have a really good podcast. If you're into entrepreneurship, business, Personal Branding, Self Improvement, Personal Growth. This is the podcast for you. We have Emily Hickey. I tracked her down on Instagram because she's so smart. I was like, We have to have this brilliant brain on the podcast. And Emily, by the way, she's a co founder and CEO of Chief Detective. It's one of the top ad agencies for social media, for Meta, for Instagram.

She's doing all the things for some of the biggest brands we know. So we're going to get into it. So hi, Emily. Hi, Jen. How's that for a little intro?

It was incredible. Thank you.

Oh, my God. You're very welcome. So we're going to do a shot. We do these magic mind shots on the podcast. You know you'd be a good person to ask. So magic mind is a performance shot. Have you ever heard of it? No. Okay, so these are healthy shots. So they have like, look at the ingredients. You tell me what you think. But we just do it because it helps you with focus, being more alert, being more locked into the podcast.

Awesome. I'm in.

Yeah, you're right. Okay, shake, shake. And you're a healthy person. I mean, you live in Telly ride and the whole thing, and you lost five pounds. Yeah, you're going to make a goal rate. Exactly. Cheers. Okay, I'm going to drink only half because I've had so many of these. I'm going to be I think I'm always supposed to have two, but I have five a day.

Should I take the whole- Yeah, you should.

It only has a little bit of caffeine, but it's green tea, the caffeine it has. I like it. It's really good. It's good. So by the way, these people, not as a shameful plug, seriously, they are doing really well. They're crushing it. I was going to ask you about them afterwards, but- Okay, cool. I want to ask you about the branding. And then, by the way, I want to let you know, it is very hot in here if you haven't noticed.

I run cold.

I run really cold. I'm sorry to say that. I apologize. I can handle it. It's okay. Okay. So Emily, I want you to tell us what exactly Okay, first of all, I just said that you do run one of the top agencies, ad agencies for Metta, obviously, Instagram. What does that mean? What does Chief Detective do? What is your specialty? Can you just give a really broad overview? Yes. Okay. Okay.

I co-founded and run this ad agency called Chief Detective. We are a performance marketing agency, meaning that mostly our job is if we spend $20,000 a day for a brand, we better make it back that same day. That's what performance marketing is. It's basically same day revenue versus brand marketing, which is a longer time horizon of developing something. So for the most part, we are a performance agency, and we manage spend on Meta, which is Instagram and Facebook, and Google and TikTok and Pinterest, but we also do the creative. So we have about 60 employees, and probably two-thirds of them are the creative studio, which is concepting and developing videos. And what it means to be good at it or try to be good at it is that the way that Meta measures it for an agency is what was the brand spending when they started with that agency and what were the returns, and what's that same set of metrics three months later? So how quickly can they Can they try to drive an improvement on the account? And then what's the average tenure of the engagement? So can they stick around with the client and really help over the longer term?

So that's how they measure that. And so by that measurement, that we're one of the top agencies on Metta, which is hard.

Wow. So first of all, how many agencies are there that does... I feel like there's a lot of people who say they do this, right? Yeah.

I mean, I don't know how many it is, but it's a lot.

A lot, right? Yeah. And So what if a company, what if a person or a company doesn't have a budget for performance marketing? What are some ways people can build awareness, gain awareness? How would someone do it If they're just starting out and they don't even have the ability to even do what you're doing. Yes.

To not even spend a dollar.

Tell me what? Yeah. I mean, not to even spend. Let's talk about from inception and the different tiers and levels, right? Because If I'm somebody who has a consumer product, how would I get it out there? How would I build awareness if I don't spend money? Do I need to spend money?

I don't think you need to spend. I mean, some of the best, we don't live in that side of the pond. We don't take on. For the most part, we don't take on early stage companies. Every once in a while, we'll take a bet on something because we fall for it. But for the most part, we come in when they're doing about 20 million in revenue or upwards, anywhere 20 million plus in revenue. And their stock and they want to scale it, that's when we tend to come in. My personal experience isn't with that early stage, but when I was building operating companies, that was always what I was doing, was early, super early startup. Right. And I think at that point, I think that these channels are a gift because they are so flammable as you know, you've done this. So you've got the best marketer wins. It's the scrappy people who are fearless. And first of all, you have to have a good product. I think that's really underestimated is that the first part of your marketing strategy actually is your product. So are you structuring it in a way that it has a natural hook?

Like, your hook is clear in terms of fitness as a microcosm, and that applies to everybody's life, and it's mass market, and it's a hook. Some people, I think, just have a nose for marketing. The same way that I think people have a nose for sales. And it's almost like a... I think it runs in families, actually. Really? I think it's a TNA trait where some people are really good at marketing and some people are really good at sales. And those people tend to just have an instinct for what is going to click with people, and they're not attached to their own ideas. I think that's another success quality. They're willing to just workshop and try things and try things and try things. Whereas you meet a lot of people who are so attached to their own idea intellectually that they won't objectively look at what they're doing and learn from their efforts and get better at it. That's a real thing, too. So I think some of the best things that we look at, the founder sat down and just did their own creative, and they did it on no budget. And they just, let's say, you could go run out in the street and interview people, and all of a sudden it's good content.

And people, you just have to have a nose for it. You have to be willing to do it.

Well, I find it interesting. You said something. You said that you have to have a good product, which is interesting because I've seen so many, especially in the last few years with social media, that products don't even matter anymore. It is only about the marketing. It is only about the fact that if you have an audience to sell to, and you can have a subpar product and still crush in sales and build. I mean, I can't tell you how many products I get sent to me. That I'm like, this is garbage. I know. But their branding is really on point and their packaging looks really good. But you think you have to have a good product, though?

Well, no, it's a good point. The product itself doesn't need to be good. It's the positioning of the product. You got to have a nose for it. There's a difference.

So that's the thing, right? It's so cluttered, right? Especially in like, let's just use fitness, health, wellness. You I mean, Emily has a great resume. You have what? Goop? Who else do you work with?

Weight Watchers. As an agency, we work with about 35 to 40 companies. But then certain of these companies I jump in as an advisor, adjunct member of the executive team. The ones I'm deeply involved in are Goop and Weight Watchers and Ursa Major, Frank and Eileen.

Who are they? I saw that on your bio. Frank and Eileen, you don't know them?

Who are a pretty big company?

I know. Maybe I'm just like. It's a girl.

Yeah. She's in LA. It's a female founder. It's in LA. They're really known for their button-up shirts.

That's why I don't wear button-up shirts. I wear like gym clothes 24 hours a day. I got dressed up for you. I put a belt on. So that's for you. Okay. But what I was going to say is that... So it's not so much the product you're saying. It's more about the packaging, the positioning, all these. Give me an example.

Well, so it depends on your goal, because I actually What we do, we try to think about things as a 100-year brand. And in that case, the product really matters because- Oh, that's for longevity.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean, in terms of like with apparel, probably the biggest lifetime value trigger is fit, right? So if you buy a pair of leggings or whatever, and they don't fit or they make you... They're not flattering, you just are not going to buy. That's case closed. You're not going to buy them again. With women's apparel or really any apparel, The delivery of the product against the promise is very important. So if you're promising these leggings make your butt look good, they better do it. You know what I mean? Otherwise, it's a one and done purchase. And that happens a lot on social is these product-based companies get stood up and then they're gone or they're Their market share isn't defensible. Because the product, they don't understand why people bought it in the first place, and they don't deliver on that. So Home Depot, this has become a really core example for me, is their garden center business is like this. It's the biggest part of Home Depot, which I didn't know, but it is the garden center. It's like this $20 billion a year business. And the way that it didn't, it wasn't always like that, but the team did a really good job obsessing over...

I don't know if you... I've tried to garden. It's been a disaster, so I'll go spend... It's hard. You go spend $1,000, and then it doesn't work, and you never spend another penny. It's like, why bother? Of all the time and the expense. So they realized that because their repeat rates were so horrible. And so they started to obsess over genetically modifying the seeds to make it easy to succeed seed and that it would stick and that it would grow. And one of their criteria for it for those seeds was what they called flower power, which was that it visually looked so good in your garden that the payoff against what you're trying to get is super amplified. Do you know what I mean? So whatever you're promising, I think that's a good way to think about building a 100-year brand is like, Okay, this is our product promise. We promise that our clothes are always going to fit and that they're going to make you look good and that they're going to be durable or whatever you're looking for in your workout clothes. And if you're the one to deliver on that the most, then you win the right to their next purchase.

That's what you're trying to do as a brand. Do I win almost like this annuity of their future revenue streams? And the other thing that's in Lululemon, actually, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as a recent example. What's the central product innovation is very important.

I was going to ask you about that. I was just waiting to finish what you're going to say, and I was going to bring something up. Go ahead.

Well, I mean, if you think about people's purchasing, first of all, you're probably getting gifted everything, but you don't need more workout clothes, I'm guessing. You probably got drawers full of this. So what makes people purchase is emotional. I don't need it, but I want it either because there's some zipping new feature or because it adds to my identity.

It's interesting you say that. So Lululemon is a great example because I find it to be tired, right? Yeah. Very tired. And then you have now, let's say, let's go with aloe, right? Because aloe has become the new Lululemon that I think... I think that's become tired also But they're now going into luxury, which is a whole other situation. Did you see that?

Yeah, I did see that.

And it's interesting because they've done, I think, an incredible job of knocking Lululemon off its pedestal and coming in It's like that brand, the one that's very generic with fitness clothes. You have a million companies, but that one's really good at it because they have good fashions, they have good styles. But what I always find interesting is they're not the greatest in quality. It's like a one season, two season. It loses. It's like you think. But they're charging a fortune. And they have now, they've been able to brand extend until to different studios, into luxury. In your opinion, why do you think... What did they do differently than Lululemon, who's doing the same thing, but is it just because they didn't innovate fast They lost their cool factor? Why did they lose their cool factor? Why did Alo be... It's a case study. I'm curious to ask you because they were able to get out of the clutter and be that brand that everyone, even men who don't work out, know about.

And the other two in there are Biond and Viory.

Yeah, I was going to say Biond and Viory did a great... Biond just got bought. Oh, did they? Yeah, for like 400 million. You know who bought them? Levi's.

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

I know why Biond does well, though. They're very comfortable, and they fit well. But that's not the only reason, but I think that's at least you feel good wearing their clothes. Yeah. Right? The Viory also did a great job, and they're crushing it.

Yeah, they're killing it. So I think Viory extended in a lifestyle the most effectively out of all of them. When I travel, I feel like the whole airport, you know what I mean, is filled with people and you see the little rectangle. I think the external branding really worked for them, which not everybody does. And they nailed, they moved it into lifestyle, I think the most effectively. But look, what you're saying is true for everybody.

The Viori, yeah. Aviator Nation does that, too. They did very well, but usually it could look tacky.

Yeah, you got to do it just so. And also, what does it stand for? Who do you become when you wear the brand? That's a really important thing. And I think that Lululemon lost sight of that. So it's two things. One is product innovation, you've always got to stay ahead of her. And it's like there was... Hermes is always the case study for doing that because they put their stake in the ground of how do you change but be the same? And that's always core pillar for their assortments. How do we change but be the same? The essence of what we're doing is the same, but it always feels modern. It's always like the way they say it is if it's too focused on nostalgia, it's saying that there's something wrong with today. It's saying that yesterday was better. But if you focus on heritage, you're embracing the present. And so you're always bringing excitement to the present day and how you articulate yourself visually in the present day. And I think Lululemon needs to... They need to figure that out. In many brands, it's not just them. They're one of the biggest consumer brands in the world at this point.

And I think it's them, Nike and Adidas. They're big.

Yeah, they're really big.

But in this day and age with social and all these upstart, there's no barrier to entry. You could start something today and you could take a run at them. It is hard to protect your customer in this day and age. And one of your biggest offenses to do is product strategy. But to do that effectively, you have to understand what you were doing for them in the first place. So we stand for quality, we stand for it being flattering, but you also stand for it making her cool. I think that when they went out to all those yoga studios and they were on all the coolest instructors, they gave her an identity to step into, which is health as a lifestyle. And it's part of her achievement-oriented concept of herself. She's optimizing everything about her life. That's one of the things. It's one of the core tools that as all these achievement-oriented women are optimizing their decor. I mean, everything about their lives. There's ambition in it. You know what I mean? And I think that they lost... I don't feel ambitious when I wear Lululemon.

Right. But it's interesting because you mentioned that one program that put them on the map, all the Lulu Ambassadors, back when they started 25 years ago, whatever it was, right? Again, why doesn't it work today? It's still the same thing. You're going after the hot, quote, unquote, like the cool, hot, trendy, whatever, trainers, coaches, whatever. You're using them as ambassadors. You get their audience, they promote it, they're wearing it. Why does that... Because that is about building and creating a community, which we all hear is so important. Why did it flatline?

I don't know if they're still doing it, but I'll tell you- I thought they were.

I see it in the stores.

Let me tell you the story and tell me what you think about this. A friend of mine who I am doing this brand repositioning thing that I do with her and her company. She lives in Moraine. She's a CMO. There are four stores next to each other in Moraine. This is a perfect... It's Lululemon, it's Fiori, it's Beyond, and it's Allo. And they're all in a row. You know what I'm talking about? Totally. There's that off the highway thing in Moraine. So beyond Boms into Town, they're the new guy on the block. Those three are already there. And so they came in and they did a two-week partnership with the coolest yoga studio. It's called Now or something like that. I can't remember what it was called. But anyways, there's the Jachi yoga studio in Morin. And I'm sure that this is just their playbook. Okay, this is what we do when we open up a store. So they went in, they did a two-week partnership with the studio, and it was the week leading up to the store opening and then the week after. That was the two weeks. And there was signage. They had co-branded classes, I'm sure, whatever it was, and they probably had gear and whatever else.

And then they took video in the studio. And then when they did the store opening, they invited everybody And they did all these produced videos, edited out videos from the classes. And it was supposedly packed. And she said she spent $1,000 that night, and she's been back three times, gotten her son hooked on it. And she doesn't go into the other one. So how much energy... Things lose energy as they age, and you've got to go fluff the pillows. And it feels to me like their product innovation isn't there. They've probably lost a lot of the team. That's what a lot of the comments I got on Instagram. That's hard, too, because then everyone's like, oh, they created Lululemon, so they get stolen away. So you lose team. It gets hard to hang on to talent. And there just doesn't feel like there's energy in the product innovation. I don't think it's the cool brand anymore. And they're probably not using that creativity at the community level. I mean, it's there for them. They can go get it, go get it back. But right now, it feels like they're in a lull.

How much of it is luck also? Or what just... You can do all the planning in the world and do everything right, and it just doesn't work. It's still flat lines. Do you know what I mean? It's interesting. Viori did a good job, but there's been a lot of these other brands I see. They look better, they're great, and it's just like, Can't get arrested.

Yeah. And you don't think it's a product problem. You think they just don't know how to create.

I think there's a lot of... I think that there's like... I think Allo does it really well. I keep on going back to that for the I think, Fiori, what I like about it, a lot of men and women love it, and they travel with it. There's a lot of leisure stuff. I agree with that. At the mall here, at Century City Mall, you have in Marine, you have in one line, you have Beyond, Allo, Viory, Lulu, and there's another one. I can't even remember what it is, right? Yeah. And Allo is the one that always has people in and out, in and out all day, all day, all day. Beyond, you can shoot a canon through that place. I don't know why, but they just got sold. But, Viore, it's a vibe. It's about a vibe, I feel. How do you create a good vibe? Like, partnerships, events, whatever. I'm just wondering. I mean, I don't go down this tangent of stuff because I think the fitness and wellness and health space is like a trillion dollar industry, and it's just never-ending. It's never Never ending. When I sold my app situation, I thought, okay, how many more apps and fitness can there be?

God, five minute workouts, six minutes. Please. And since then, there's been 50 other apps that sold for 100 million, 80 million, 600 million. I'm like, you don't even have to reinvent the wheel.

No, you don't.

That's what I find interesting.

Yeah, I agree. That space is infinite.

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So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to joinamp. Com/jen to learn more. That's join joinamp. Com/jen because strength should fit your life. Okay, so you said, Viori, what else have you seen? What brands in that space have you thought has done very well in personal positioning, branding, marketing? It doesn't have to be... It could be anything, by the way. It doesn't have to be in the... Yeah. But you work with Goop. What What do you think of them now?

I'm obsessed with Goop. I'm wearing Gwen.

Okay. She has a new... Yes. Okay. That's a nice weather.

I mean, look, I think... I mean, I'm deeply in it. Yeah, I know.

You're in the weeds over there.

I know. Yeah. You fall in love, and now it's all...

They did a fantastic job from the get-go, though, with that brand.

That's right. I mean, this is why I love Guip. It is a truly feminist brand. It's not that I'm some turbo strident feminist I'm actually maybe quietly a feminist. I think every population deserves to be activated. But what I love about Gup is that it really is about supporting and equipping women to live their richest life with the greatest degree of agency and validity. We did this whole brand exercise last summer, and the whys of that brand, why does that brand exist? First of all, is to support women in pursuing themselves. And that is a concept that you and I are probably... That's probably our Venn diagram is bullseye, right? Is just the pursuit of self. And that that is what that brand is about. And it's also, secondly, about getting rid of the cultural headwinds that might prevent women from having the most honest pursuit of themselves, whether it's about divorce or sexuality or whatever, just trying to clear the mud out of the water so that women really can just go for it, whatever they want to be. And I think that it also is a role modeling brand of what is modern womanhood about?

What is modern feminism? It's not like it was, I don't know if we're around the same age, I'm 51. So when I was first working, it was in the '90s, and I was often the only woman in the room, and It felt like a little bit of, I guess, a fight. Now, I don't think that's the case at all. So now what is, we're probably fighting against ourselves in a lot of ways. And what's in our way? And what is the conversation around maybe it's about restoring softness to being a strong woman. And that's something that Gwyneth and I have talked a lot about. And her whole vision around women just really resonates with me. And I think she has been a force for changing cultural conversations And I think that brand- Oh, yeah. Yeah, right?

And she doesn't get- And by the way, it was so interesting. You never would have thought that when it started. People probably pooh-poohed her like, oh, Gwyneth Paltrow, what does she know about business or branding? I think she surprised everybody.

Yeah. She's like, I mean, honestly, I was like...

I mean, it's been a while. How long has it been around already?

It's been almost 15 years.

I mean, that to me is crazy. I know. It feels like it was just yesterday. I know.

And if you think about, if you... This is the thing with awareness and with branding. It is really hard to create saturated levels of awareness. Yeah. And if you ask anyone, ask any woman in this country, name a lifestyle brand, I bet you anything, they would say Martha Stewart and Gwyneth and Goop. And I bet they couldn't think of a third. And so to have accomplished that level of awareness, but then also the trust of like, okay, I need a recommendation for something. Everybody trusts what they recommend. So that intersection of awareness and trust, it really is hard to do.

Yeah.

And it's one of those brands I think it's just a good guy brand. I'm glad it exists. I think brands change. I feel the same way about Weight Watchers. I feel like it's a good guy brand. There are certain brands that believe in their customers that champion their customers, I think live on the noble side of life. I have this thing I'm obsessed with from this poet of like, he was talking... Seamus Heaney is my favorite poet. Really? But he's an Irishman. He haven't read him. It's beautiful. He's a beautiful, beautiful here. And he said that when he came from this farm family in Northern Ireland, he was like, he felt guilty when he fell in love with poetry because they dug with their hands. It was his father, and he was digging with his pen, is how he put it. But he was like, from the first line that you write, poetry lands on the side of life, and it has to do with the angularity of the words and the syntax and the surprising things that you put together. And because its whole point is to surface the sensitive sides of our nature and convince us that that's the right side of our nature in the face of so much that would tell us it's the wrong side in the world.

Wow. Yeah. And I think brands... So to him, there was a why of the vocation of being a poet. But I feel like what people do who build brands, there's a why of that vocation, too. I think that you could use it in a way to make the world better. You help build the reason that we have so many family values in the United States. We're all focused on family values. We grew up watching Growing Pains and all that. It's like in our media, we've been bred that. But it also is in all the ads that we watch on the Super Bowl. It's in the fabric of the advertising that we receive is the values that we all share. And so especially right now when everyone's fighting, and I think that brands actually can play this institutionalized role of landing us all on the side of life and helping us live on the noble side of our natures. I really think that. I think that Goup is one of those brands. I think Weight Watchers is one of those. They're brands that can help us live in that set of values. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

There are people who've stayed true. Like, look at Tide. Right? Yes, I'm upset. Tide. They've done a great job of keeping their position for God knows how many years, right?

Decades. They've been the dominant in the category for decades.

What do you think they've done in simple terms? What have they done exceptionally well to keep their market share?

It's the perfect example of going back to the active where it's product strategy and it's marketing. So if you think about, CPG is really good at this. They know what they have promised to the customer. Tide is about fighting 100% of stains, making clothes smell good, and turning on laundry into an act of maternal love. It's positioning in the market is the robust premium family detergent. And the reason, if it never changed its product, so if we walked into the grocery store, we look at the shelves, it's just same old Tide. They would lose their market share. But their collabs and their innovative new flavors of Tide is constant, but they also go back to that marketing letter. So when they do a collab, it's with Febreze because they know that their central promise is to make clothes smell good. Or when they evolve a new type, it's sport because as I'm sure you know with your kids, the entire American family now revolves around the kids' sports, and they're all about family. So they have to position into sports. So now if Lulu understood self-consciously, this is our promise to the customer. We keep her looking and feeling cool, and this is an empowering part of her identity.

We keep the best fabrics, and we constantly innovate on making her legs look better and better and better in those leggings.

That's okay. So what would you say if you were working with a Lulu Lemon, if they were your client, what would you say the first thing that they should do to start becoming relevant?

Product innovation, technical innovation. Obsessed over finding a fabric that suddenly makes you look so fit and trim, and that when you look in the mirror, you are so psyched about it. So I think they've got to put a name on that and a handle on that, whether they take their line and bring it to something new, or it could also be colorways. That's a lot of... Color is the easiest thing in the world. It's the easiest way to drive product strategy and is so under leveraged, but you've got to keep the colorways rolling out. Otherwise, people don't buy it. They're not going to buy their 10th pair of black leggings.

You know what? That is exactly true because why I was buying so much aloe stuff was because every day they'd have another tone or color that I liked. I'm like, Oh, that's bright red, not the dull red. Okay, I'll get that. Oh, there's an orange that's a little bit more of this. I have about a 47,000 pairs of pants, and I don't wear any of them anymore, but that I just keep on buying because I'm like, That's shiny ball. It's a nicer color. They did a great... I think that's a really good point.

It drives emotional purchasing because you don't need more leggings.

That's 100% true. Okay, how about this one? Popy versus OliPop, right? Both of them are going to... One just sold for what? A couple of one billion and a half. I don't know. A lot. A billion point four or something. The other one could sell, I think, today for a billion. But I think Popy came up a little bit higher, right? But OliPop was out maybe a couple of years earlier. Why do you think poppy has been like, like, won the game a little bit or so far?

I actually don't know because I haven't studied those and I don't drink.

I don't drink I don't care. I don't care either, by the way.

My husband buys the poppies for the kids. But I mean, I would guess it was a combination of distribution strategy for one thing and then social. I bet that social flammability was a big part of that.

That was what I was going to ask you. What part of this or how important is influencer marketing?

Beyond. Beyond important.

What's the most effective strategy for influencer marketing? Is it whitelisting? Is it collaboration? Is it just real? What have you seen works the best?

So the typical... I think it is a volume game for the most part, because it is hard to predict who is going to work. So typically, you're putting together almost like a pyramid construct of, okay, we're going to have our base plank of the pyramid, which is just spray and prey. We're going to get this. It's an awareness. It's top of funnel marketing. So let's get this out to as many people. You gifted out to thousands of people a month. I was talking to someone recently about a very big beauty brand strategy for this, and it's pretty typical for something that's really scaled. Let's say 5,000 people are gifted this thing a month. Some percentage of those are actually to post because you're not getting paid. It's just organic gifting. You're hoping they post it, let's say 10 % post it. Some tiny percentage of those is totally going to hit. And then you dig in with them and try to build on that success. They, for some reason, are a good avatar for this brand. So that's your base plank. It's a volume game. And then you move it up to your very top macro influencers who might have millions of followers and are really expensive.

But you think that they're a good chosen avatar for the brand, that they really represent the identity. Because, again, who do you become when you wear one of these brands? And I think that top of the influencer period, it's like, that's an important way to show who you become. So that person really represents this cool, amazing woman who we think you become when you wear these clothes or whatever. And so I just think it's a tiered strategy, but it's both it's creating awareness, it's pulling something into culture and saying that this is relevant and modern and people like you are using it And then, of course, they have influence on their own followers. You influence your followers. They trust you.

A lot of people, though, I will say, you think they have a lot of influence, but they don't convert into numbers. I know a couple of brands that I was working with as a strategist for them, and they were adamant about having a few people come on board that had like 3 million followers, that one had 5 million followers, and they were charging astronomical amounts of money for them to be in partnership. And I was like, Those aren't your people. I'd rather you take that money and go wider with micros that have 50,000, 10,000 followers, and you will get way more bang for your buck and spend way less money. Because I also think the bigger the number of the influencer, the less engagement they have and less eyes are on them, because that's what happens with Instagram and Metta, right? You then have to pay for your visibility a lot of times. Sometimes not, but anyway, long story short, they didn't want to listen, blah, blah, blah. They went and spent a million dollars on this person. Something ridiculous. Okay?

Yeah.

They ended up selling, I kid you not, I kid you not, $47 worth of product. $47 with a product. That's awful. Can you imagine? Yes. Okay. But So I said, let's just do a little experiment. Let's take these 10 girls that I really liked, and let's do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah The point is, I think a lot of this is a ruse. People assume because they see a big number. Oh, that's going to be our cash cow. That's going to be our panacea. And I've not yet to see very few people. There's certain people who convert. Obviously, Gwyneth is amazing. You don't even need any influencers because she's amazing. Jennifer Annen, I see, does very... She crushes it for all the brands just because she does. Many, many celebrities or many, many people who have these big names and these big followers, they're not converting even a little at all. I just got off a call with one of my brands, and they were saying they to this founder's thing, and they came back and told me these things. I don't want to say the names because I don't want to be mean, but they said that they all did these experiments with four of these people that they were like, no one should ever work with them because they will never get an...

The return on investment is never there. I just find all of this stuff to be so interesting.

It's so interesting. What's your criteria when you chose those 10 women and they grew up? What was the criteria?

Well, a lot of it is just I I watch a lot of people just because I want to see patterns. And a lot of it's my gut, to be honest. When I did this Hot 5 app, most of the people... What we did was we had five minute workouts, and then you can stack those workouts if you wanted to. So you can do five minutes of abs, let's say five minutes of glutes. So you can do 5, 10, 15 minutes if you had the time, or you can do the style of workout. So five minutes of yoga, five minutes of strength training, whatever. And you can mix and match. Okay. The other part is called Hot Five was because it was hot people working out, right? Because everybody likes to look. I don't care what you say about body positivity. I can be canceled right now. I don't care. People want to watch other hot people work out. That's what they want to do. It's motivating for them. Maybe that's not PC to say, but that's what it is. That's why you see on Instagram all these girls who have... They're not fitness coaches. They know nothing about fitness or in the science, but they have a zillion people looking at them because guess what?

They look good doing it, right? That's just what it is. Let's just call it a spade a spade here, right? Okay. So on that app, I picked a bunch of these people, and They're now all... Every person I picked had four followers or six followers or a hundred followers, whatever it was. And now they all have a million, each one of these people. Because it's also like, you have to have... I have a little a bit of a knack, I think, of just recognizing.

It's the nose. I know.

It's like, I just have a knack of knowing. And then it's just little things like that. So these 10 girls, just to get to your point, was I just saw how people how they were engaging. It was a little bit unique. It was a little bit more original and different. It was authentic, right? Very authentic. It wasn't produced, but they were really good at the jibber jabber, right? Yeah. There are some people who are just really good at connecting to their audience in a way that makes people feel like, Oh, you're talking to me, right? And there are other people who are just really shitty at it, but they're really good at content creation. So I know a lot of people, and brands do this, and you probably would see this, too, is that brands will hire somebody because they're really good at the content creation, and it's used as an ad, so to speak. Instead of using a shy a day or you or whoever as an ad agency to create this content, they use these people because they make nice content, but they're not converting for them. And they have a piece of budget for that, and then they have a piece of budget for people who are the converters for them.

You know what I mean? It's separated like that. That's what I just find. I find that that's how I just look at all these things. I think that not everyone's going to be great at the same thing. A lot of times, you want to, like you said, you want to basically just flood the market with the stuff, right? You tell me. Give me an example of a brand that you've worked with that you've utilized some of your tricks, like your first principles. Talk about your first principles.

So the first principle Am I talking too much?

Because I was like, okay- No, I actually am learning from you, and I agree with everything you just said, by the way.

So what I realized, I started all this doing consulting. So I spent years building startups, and then I moved on from that.

What was your to Fame? What company put you on the map?

As doing this work, I mean, Jenny Caine was a big one, I think, in the apparel industry because it was a very successful. For one thing, it was a really big revenue drive, but it was the creation of the world through the digital ads that I think was so... It was the right brand at the right time and using the channel in a way that I think people hadn't used it before. That elevated price point and being willing to create a world like that in a raw way, but that was driving to something that was relatively expensive to show that that actually could be done through a casual social ad campaign. So, yeah, here's an example. So the first, the Big Daddy law of Gravity. I think that businesses are all basically the same, and that if you look under the hood, you often see a lot of the same pieces, and they should work the same way. But there's always a lot of confusion when something gets stuck or starts to slow down. And I think you can I just go back to these first principles to figure out what to do. It's reliable, the same way that if I drop something, it's going to fall on the floor because there are physical properties that govern businesses.

Okay, yeah.

And I figured these out by screwing up. I spent a long time making idiotic mistakes and overthinking everything. And then I was like, okay, I just need to dumb myself down and let the plane fly the way it wants to. The first one of those that really is our One of our organizing principles of Chief Detective is that the winners win, and they win, and they win, and they win, period. It just is true. It's like if you, whatever you are doing, right? You learn it doing content of like, wow, that one really hit. No one cared about this one. There's always asymmetrical results in anything that you do. And I think, intellectually, people want things to be symmetrical and thought out and everything else. And I wish I could sell five of these and five of these and five of these and five of these. But that's not how it works. If you open up a store, you're going to sell a ton of this one thing and long tail of everything else. So a lot of companies will try to make that long tail work. But that's not the right thing to do.

The right thing to do is to go back to that thing that was kicking ass and figure out how to build on that as signal. So it's an approach of trying to follow the cash of the business. You just dumb it down. And that's why with apparel companies, it's relatively easy to figure out your assortment because you're building a portfolio portfolio of hero franchises. Okay, that one really worked. The Cacoon Cardigan at Jenny Caine or the this or the this, the Nike Dunk. There are things that you want to build on, and then that's where you're driving all your collabs. And it is so much easier to make the winners produce more than to try to get the medium or the low performers to work better.

Like your hero product, basically. Yeah. And then just build on that hero product. Do you think you see that a lot? Someone does really well in one area and they want to expand. It's It's like they're spending all this money and time and effort and all these other things when they should have just stayed in their niche and build on that. I see that all the time.

Yeah, it happens all the time. If you've got to pull a rabbit out of the hat and get revenue fast, the strategy should be, what can we do to sell more of this? This one that's already selling the best, what can we do to sell more of that? And when you think about your product development, what was it about that? Okay, was it that it was about travel or was it because it was flattering and it made her legs look better? Or what was it about that that we can build on as a franchise to build into the assortment of what that was driving into? Was it it was stripes? Okay, let's create, let's do more stripes. So it is a very overlooked principle. It sounds obvious. It is obvious, but it is so under leveraged. It's shocking. And then this colorways. Okay, that's your top selling silhouette. Don't abandon it. Go spend X percentage of your energy trying to build new heroes, but make sure you're giving her novelty colors in that thing every month. Because I've looked at a lot of purchase path reports. So okay, the first purchase was X sweaters or X legging, X shoe, whatever, right?

Guess what the second purchase was?

What?

The same thing in a different color. Guess what the third purchase was? The same thing in a different color.

Like I said, this is like the aloe thing in 20 different colors. The same thing. Yeah.

It is a fact. People collect. They've already told you, this is what I like. So why are you going to go spend a bunch of time trying to find something else that they're going to like? And these heroes get abandoned all the time and under leveraged. Totally. And it's true with people, too. Their own your own sense of what you're good at. Or A talent portfolio or any portfolio approach to anything is going to cluster asymmetrically around something that does better. But the instinct is to allocate resources symmetrically across everything. It's the wrong instinct. Project. That's what I mean by Winners Win, is like, wake yourself up a little bit.

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Spearpoint marketing. I was just talking about this with somebody yesterday. So spearpoint marketing, this is a horrible thing to say, but you don't kill an elephant with a plank of wood. You hunt with a spear, with the point of a spear. But if you look at most people's advertising efforts, they're hunting with a plank of wood in terms of... I'll give you my favorite example, and this one you're going to relate to. The WNBA, they spent years, decades, and I don't know how much money trying to promote the WNBA. Now, that's plank of wood. You see it all the time that the ad is at the brand level or even at the category level. Hey, spring dresses. I can't tell you how many apparel accounts we've looked at. And the way that they market new arrivals is at the category level. We've got new sweaters, we have new dresses. It's the same thing as the WNBA saying, watch women's basketball. It just doesn't work. If I say this works for all body types, I will sell zero of it. If I say, I'm self-conscious about my arms and I love this shirt, I'll sell thousands of units.

It is a mental... It's a protractor to pull off the board and force yourself to think about specificity of your marketing. So back to the WNBA, decades of wasted money trying to get people interested in women's basketball. But the minute Kaitlyn Clarke comes along, they have the point of a spear, you always want to do star marketing. Whatever the best thing is in that portfolio, you market at the tip of the spear. And that is true whether... So with her, I don't know if this is still true, but at the time, that was the single most watched basketball game on ESPN. College, pro, men's, women's. And it happened. Everything I read, what I read is the Wall Street Journal. I read it every morning. I have time for one paper, and it's that one. I read the sports news.

I love it.

I watch football with my son and my husband. I love metaphorically watching and reading about sports.

I think it's such a great... It's also a microcosm of life. Yeah. I I agree.

But so that's the perfect spirit point example. All of a sudden, when they think of the billions of dollars of industry value that they created because of the way that they marketed Kaitlyn Clarke, every cutaway to the ads would be... It wouldn't even be a good play. And they'd be like, Man, did you see how she stepped back and took that? It was always about her and all the articles and the press push. It was about glorifying her. And that is what put WNBA on the map. Not all that broad. So always it's a good discipline to think about, how do I make my marketing message specific? And it's probably going to be more effective.

I love that. So then with Gup, what is their hero product? I really don't even know.

Well, the beauty business, they've got a really killer beauty. That beauty product is incredible.

You know what I use from them? You should get me some because I'm out of it.

I will get you some. That is really good.

The micro- The Microderm.

Yes.

I love it. It's awesome. It really is a great product.

It is. It is a great product.

It is, right? Okay. It's a good I mean, of course, you're going to say it.

It is misunderstood. It's a big business. It's a very good business. It is, okay. But it is misunderstood at the general population level how good that product is. They do not mess around.

I know. I couldn't believe it. I got it as a gift one time, and they're like, Oh, God, am I even going to use it? And I'm like, I'll use it one time. I was like, it made my skin shine better and glow more than anything else I've ever used, ever. And I'm not just saying this because you're sitting here or whatever. I'm not getting paid to say this. I'm saying because it actually really good, right? Yeah. But so is that not their hero? So what is the hero? Well, it's that.

It's the microgram. Is that the big one? That's a big one. Peptide. Their peptide serum, I think, is the number one seller. That's also a very good product. The one I use, both of those, the eye masks, I am obsessed with. I've never tried the eye masks. I'm going to send you those, too.

I'll send you the whole thing. Please send me the whole thing. Now that we're friends. I got you.

I got your skincare. Thank But the the eye masks are like, I mean, I'm like, bag lady. It's a big problem for me. Really?

I don't see any bags.

Well, I use the eye masks for instance. Oh, there you go. I'm not trying to make this an ad, but they're just really good, especially for people who are on the go and busy. But they have probably four or five hero products within that beauty business. But I think the ultimate hero of that is the editorial product and the curation and the travel tips. That, to me, is what drives the trust of that brand.

Yeah. By the way, you know what the brand I use for concealer? Tell me what you think. Marit. I think I saw your name. So I don't know how good it is or not good. I don't know how to put makeup on. I'm literally terrible. I tried to put it on today. I probably look like a clown. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, I think this goes here just not good. But I think I like the Marit overall. It's clean, isn't it?

It goes with your ethos. It's a really no fuss. Really? Well, just in the sense that she really tried to make it easy to put on for people who were busy and didn't want to deal with it that much.

You know what I mean? Okay. Why would it be harder than putting on a different concealer?

Well, the concealer might be different. But for example, that flush bomb, everything was just the use case of it was like, Okay, if I'm in the car, can I put this on? Or if I have literally five minutes, can I put this on?

Does it do well? Yeah. It does do really well.

That's a good company.

What happened with Cracker Barrel? Do you remember them? Yeah. You did a video with them a long time ago or something I thought. Where did they do to their brand?

Well, I mean, that was... I don't know. So they changed the logo and the whole Internet got really fired up about it. But it goes back to that- Because they were screwing around what their main audience, their main demo.

Is that why they got that? Yeah. But they just changed the logo. What's the difference?

Well, they took that guy.

I don't know anything about them.

It's not that I'm a big crackerbell customer, but they- Really?

No. That's Shocking, Emily. But go on.

No, I mean, they took the old Yeeha guy out of the... I don't know how much people actually care, but I think it became a hot button on the internet, I think, because they screwed up. It's a nostalgia brand. It's what we were talking about before, but it is nostalgia. It's about yesterday and permanence and never... The promise with a nostalgia brand is we won't change because- Versus the heritage you said earlier, right? Yeah, or versus just like something that's... I mean, they still need to change, too. So you know how Hermes, they are good at changing but staying the same? Yeah. That's a trick. Cracker Barrel changed and they changed. They needed to find a way to change and stay the same, and instead they changed and they changed. And that's why people revolted, because the central promise of that brand is we're not going to change. It's a nostalgia brand.

That makes sense, actually. You said this before about growing a business and growing yourself is like a dual journey, right? What does that mean? Because you're about fully everything should be dual. Everything should be encompassing together, right? Like your personal growth and the company, it all... They're not separate entities, basically. Yeah. Right? So can you talk more about that and what you mean by all that? Is it as people are growing on their own, their company then evolves and changes? Is that more or less what you're meaning?

Well, I think the American way... When I was 22 or just starting my career, I subscribed to Forbes magazine. I was a liberal arts major. This wasn't my thing. Yeah. And my mom was like, I wanted to go be a professor. I wanted to be an intellectual. I can totally see that. My mom was like, No, you're going to go to work. Then you can decide later if you want to do that. So anyway, so I- Where'd you go to college? I went I went to Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina.

That's a great school. And then you went to Stanford, right? Yeah. I went to Chapel Hill, and then I moved to New York City, and I started doing consulting, and I would read Forbes magazine because it was 1996. It It was different. By the way, back then, that's what people were doing. That's what you did.

There wasn't an internet yet. There really wasn't. The quote from Malcolm Forbes in the opening Masthead of Forbes magazine, I don't know if it still is, but at the time, it was a proverb, and it was, With all thy getting, get understanding. And that, to me, that was his approach to capitalism, was that the American way was to build a business and succeed. But in the process of doing that, that you're succeeding as a person and in the world, and there's an ethical point of view to it, and there's a pursuit of self that happens in the crucible of working. So your pursuit, presumably, has been fitness. You've used that as as a focal point for developing out, whether it's perseverance or all of the traits that you're trying to get in yourself. I just have used business for that because this was not a natural thing for me to do. I really am very, very shy and introverted as a person. It's always been a lifelong. I know. Isn't that cute? It's so cute. No, so it was hard for me when I was younger.

Look at you now.

Yeah, and look at me now. I know. But I mean, but even things like you always have to check. To be successful, you have to cultivate yourself. You have to figure out your ego. You have to do things wrong and be like, I'm not going to do that again in terms of how you treat I mean, the whole thing is an exercise in maturity. It is the inner journey of leadership. So just using whatever it is that you're trying to do and understanding that what you're getting at the other end of that is you. It is you. It's so It's true.

You know why I think that? I think I saw you talk about the fact that you really leaned into what you're good at. And so that resonated with me because I went to business school. I did all the things. I have a bunch of degrees and all that stuff. But the culture of working in an office was sickening for me. I did it, and I hated it because I wanted to ride. I rode my bike to work in my little shorts, and I were back. I loved being active So what I just did, and I tell this to people all the time, is I used fitness as my business, as I created businesses around me liking being fitness and fitness stuff and make him an entrepreneur in that space. And so I always say, People should really know what they like and then create around that when they can. Otherwise, you're just always fitting a circle into a square, and you're never going to thrive and flourish in a real way. When you are the most authentic and you're able to do that, it It doesn't always happen. You can't always do that. But if you can, you'll just be more successful versus trying to do something that you're not even good at.

Tell me what you think. I think that people should do what they're really good at and then get other, delegate or find other people to balance you out by doing the things that you're really bad at. Some people say, No, I don't like that idea. You should get good at the other things that you're bad at. But I'm like, Well, why? I'm just going to be bad at them. I'm not going to be as good. I don't want to do them. And then, therefore, why even do that? What do you think?

I heard, Well, it's winner's win.

Winner's win. I love it. I love it.

You pour water on what... But I'm curious about when you did that, so how long were you in an office type thing? And then was it scary to do that, or you Were you in the office?

No, when I was in the office... Well, listen, my background is... My first real job was with the MBA. I worked for the Toronto Raptors. And then I did that for a year. Then I went back to business school after that. So I had my undergrad and all that. Then I went to work for the Toronto Raptors, went back to school for my business, and then I got recruited to go to BMG Music. So I was going to go back to the Raptors, actually, or go back in the sports world. I had a job at Nike offer. I had a lot of different things I could have done, but I got this really good offer to do this for a record label. I'm Canadian, by the way.

Okay, I was about to ask you. Yeah.

And then I was working in Toronto, and then I got a job to come to LA to work for another record label. That's how I got to LA. And I just hate it. In a world of corporate, it wasn't even that corporate. I just had to be somewhere at a certain time. You had to be there. I had to have meetings at a certain time. I had to do this at a certain time. And my ADD was not doing well with that. I wanted to have autonomy. I was much better when I didn't have someone tell me where I had to be, what I had to do, what I had to do. Even in a record label environment, I was still running a marketing division or I was on a fast track. So my thing was, and I had other jobs, too, that I went back and forth with. But bottom line is, I just said, you know what? I can figure it out. And I'm actually going to... I was on a visa, so I couldn't just work anywhere. So I had to become a personal trainer and make money under the table so I can then basically survive in living in LA.

I was very young. I quit my job, and that's how I started in the fitness journey. I became a trainer for five minutes. But what I did was I went back to all of my relationships in the music world because when I was working in the music space in Toronto, in LA, in New York, I was working with all the big labels. I created an opportunity for myself. So I went to these labels and I said, Listen, I'm now a trainer, but I'm no longer a marketing person. I want you to pay me a retainer to train all the different artists. So when they get ready for a tour or a video, I will train them. And they're like, What do you mean train them? Like, how? I'm I mean, physically train them. The first guy from MSA was like, What are you talking about? And I'm like, No, this is what I'm doing. I know how the budgets work. And at the time, they would give these people huge budgets to do whatever they wanted to do, right? Okay. And so I said, I'll do it for free for a month. I'll train whoever for a month.

Because if you go to a gym, you're capped, right? You just get 50 bucks an hour, whoever you're training, or 10 bucks an hour. And so I already had... I use my transferred skills of like what I had, went to the label and said, Let's create this thing. Finally, someone gave me the opportunity. I did a good job. And then they're like, okay, you're hired. So then I became a label trainer, which means I went to all the labels and trained a bunch of artists and got paid a retainer. So I wasn't getting paid hourly. So then I was able to work in the States properly because I was getting paid by a label anyway. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make any sense? So I just took a chance on myself and I thought to myself, what's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work out. I'm no worse off now than I was a month ago. I knew I didn't want to work at a label as a person who was day in, day out doing something that didn't feel comfortable for me because I can't sit still. Even doing these podcasts for hours on end is very difficult for me.

That's why I have a treadmill beside me, so I have to move all the time. My brain does really well when I'm in movement. And if I'm stagnant too long, I'm like a cage animal. Don't do well. So I knew that about me. So I think a lot of this is self-awareness. I knew myself very young of what I'm capable of, what I like, where I thrive, and where I don't thrive. And then I leaned really into where I knew I can be okay. And I always... And I tell this to people all the time, that the only difference between you and the person that is really successful is that they believed in themselves just a little bit more to try and just keep on going. Because I think we get really stuck in our own heads of self-doubts, and we're scared of failing and rejection. But at the end of the day, that's what life is. It's more failing and more rejection than the positive. If you If you get that to be what it is, the ratio will eventually even out somewhere. The more chances you give yourself, the more chances you have it succeeding.

I always live by a certain mentality. It's like, Rejection, always better than regret. Don't let that happen. So I will always put myself out there to a fault. And now I'm so desensitized to the word no, to rejection, to failure, because I'm so used to it. It doesn't bother me anymore. So I'm expecting to fail. I'm expecting for things not to work out. And if they do, great. And if they don't, I'm okay with it. I'm just going to keep it going, moving on, moving on, moving on. And so when I changed this whole thing to fitness and stuff like that, it was scary. But what's my option than to just live in this myopic area of like, okay, I'm just going to do what everybody else does. I'm here. I'm always looking for chasing what you want and not just accepting what you get. And so I have certain things on heat in my head.

Yeah, that's incredible. I'm jealous of you.

What do you mean? You're doing it.

I am, but your fearlessness and you're a hustler. I think a lot of people- Yeah, I am a hustler.

I know there's a whole big movement on sitting still and manifestation, thinking things are going to come to you and all these things. I'm a believer that if you want something to happen for yourself, you have to chase it and go after it and be relentless about it, not just be passive. There's so much competition, and I believe that there's room for everybody. But I believe that no one's saving you. No one's going to give you that thing. If you want something, and if you're I'm not someone who's born into a very rich family or a family with a lot of connections and nepotism and all the stuff. I wasn't. I had nobody to help me. I had to figure it out on my own. That It was like that worked to my advantage because it made me hungrier to do it. And that's also not a bad thing. I think that people have to just give themselves the... Have to be self-aware of what they're good at and then just go for it and just not even look back. Just prepare and expect to fail. Prepare and expect to get no's. Prepare and expect to get the door slammed on you.

And then you got to find another attempt somewhere else.

No, I love it. It's so good. I agree. And you said something really important, which is, so what if it doesn't work out? I'm just going to be backward. I say that all the time. In the context of business, too. If we go for it, if it fails, we're probably just... It's like the wart wall in it. Yeah, exactly. You're just going to be back there.

Why not even... While you were talking, and funnily enough, when I was watching your content, I was thinking to myself, I was going to ask you, I'm going to ask you right now. You're so smart, right? You know what all these other brands should be doing. You have all the information. You have all of it in your brain. Why didn't you start your own thing, your own product, your own brand, your own whatever? Because you're the one who have the knowledge base, right? Is it just something you're not interested in You don't want to do it? Why didn't you?

Well, I did, and it was an ad agency. So when I was building- Oh, you're right.

You did do the ad agency. That's true. Yeah. That's true, but not a product. But the reason- That's true. But that's a service business versus a product business.

I started a company in a way that I wanted- That's actually true, right? But I understand your question. And so I spent my 30s building other people's companies. It was miserable. It was just horrible in every possible direction. Outside of my teams, which I really loved. But I did not want to work with investors after that decade of basically being in a board meeting every four weeks and all of the decision making, the way that decisions get made when something is heavily capitalized and the dynamic and that 40 % of your time then goes to investor relationships and building your next round of funding. I just got very disillusioned with that. And that's not to say there are a lot of great investors out there who really are passionate about entrepreneurialism and funding the next wave of innovation. But for me, that was not a good match. So I shoved my raft off that dock, and I was like, I'm not building those types of companies anymore. And I want to take more of a portfolio approach with my time because I thought the investors doing it. They were invested in a bunch of things.

It didn't really matter if our thing worked out or not. But my whole life and my family and my livelihood were all in this one thing, and I couldn't control so much of the decision making and the variables. So I just started you consulting. I want to work on a bunch of stuff at once, to some degree, sell the shovels. And that, I don't want to raise money, so I need something that is immediately profitable. And that is a services business. There was no investment capital required. It was just me and my time. And I thought it really played into my own strengths because I was able to step back from things and see the patterns and develop frameworks that could be taught to people. Because that's one of the tricks with the services business is how do you make someone who's 23 years old and just graduated from college. They went to a good college, but they still just graduated We're in college. How do you teach them to do this? Because that's the only way to scale the business. So I thought it played into my strengths, and I liked working on all these brands.

And then I do this deep dive advisory work when I really fall for something. And that really feeds me.

This is what you're passionate about.

I thought it was a good fit for me.

Listen, and also you get to... It's always new, right? Because there's always a different problem that you need to solve or a different... That's why that works good for my monkey brain, right? Because the same thing, right? Because then you're not doing the same thing day in, day out, day in, day out, day in, day out, right?

No, that's right. It's like your treadmill. And it's also a way to become an expert because when you work the amount of... We've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the platform across probably at least 100 brands. You know what I mean? And you see all their reports, and you see the repeat patterns, and you see what happens with products, and you develop true expertise. And that was a good fit for me because that is my strength is trying to access insights and bring them back in the form of frameworks. That's something I feel that I'm good at.

You're really good at it.

But how could I do that if I couldn't see this playing out across so many companies?

That's 100 % true because you have so much perspective, right? Because you have all this data to choose from from all these companies that you work with all the time. You know I'm all about finding an edge. The small daily habits that give you more energy, focus, and resilience. But that's why I am hooked on Manna Vitality. Most people are mineral deficient, and that means low energy, brain fog, slow recovery, and dull skin. But Manna flips the switch by giving your body a complete spectrum of minerals it actually knows how to use. We're talking Shilajit from the Himalayas, Ormus from the Dead Sea, and marine plasma from the ocean, plus amino acids and 88 other trace minerals. The benefits are real. We're talking steady all day energy, sharper focus, faster recovery, a stronger immunity, plus glowing skin. But the biggest win, it fuels your cells for real longevity. Think of it as a cellular switch on formula, not as a stimulant, but the raw power your body needs to create energy and repair itself. Try it now, and I bet you'll be hooked to. Go to mannavitality. Com and use code Jennifer 20 for a discount.

That's mannavitality. Com. M-a-n-n-a, vitality. Com, and use code, Jennifer20. Do you ever do personal brands, like people? Or is it Just companies, just consumer?

It's just consumer. I mean, goop to some degree, be a personal brand. Sometimes I think it's one and the same. But yeah, we work on companies.

You work on companies. Hold on. I haven't even looked at my thing. None of the questions I have written, I didn't even ask you one of them.

And I wanted to talk about fitness. I'm obsessed with that, too. I'm just so curious, what you've learned because you've got pattern recognition over a lot of people.

You know what's interesting? I just came back from Miami. I just did a TED Talk on the idea that I believe that what I learned on the gym floor was way more important than what I learned in college. I had this whole thing. It's not even out yet. It hasn't even been out yet. But basically, I said the whole thing is why your GPA may not matter as much as your squat rack. Because I think the life skills and soft skills you learn from taking fitness seriously. It doesn't have to be the gym. It could be something else. What it does in terms of it, not just your discipline, not delayed... Well, everything, discipline, delayed gratification, patience, self-confidence. That to me, I'm going to tell... That have propelled anything and everything I've ever done way more than my MBA, way more than anything else I've ever done. And so I lean really hard in it because that's why I'm like a drill sergeant with people, I think, especially young people. I think that they have to take that idea of taking some form of fitness seriously will catapult their life in ways that they don't even know because they don't know what you don't know.

I think the self-confidence, I think When you asked me earlier, why you're like, well, aren't you scared? Or didn't that scare you? Because here I am, a Canadian and a young girl coming to the US, had no family, nothing, and I took a chance on myself. I took a chance on myself because I built up my self-efficacy and my self-esteem and self-worth by seeing myself do things that I otherwise would never have thought I was capable of in my fitness space, in my fitness world. Because I would lift heavier, I would run for it farther, I would wake up earlier. I would do all of these things that I would otherwise never have probably learned to do if I just never took that path of fitness at a young age. You know what I mean? That took me on a whole thing. Actually, you should watch my first TED Talk was on being bold, and that went really viral. And it will explain to you a lot of my whole thing, if you're interested. But I think that fitness is a very important... That's why I think fitness is a microcosm of success in life.

I think not just business, by the way. I'm talking about personal life, professional life, everything. I think it's super important.

I agree. I am going to watch your TED Talk. That's on my list. I'm really excited to watch it.

I think you'll see why it's a funny little pivot. But I just think that building these Keystone habits are so much more important than where you go to school. I agree. You know what I mean? I agree.

What do you think?

This is your podcast, though, not mine.

No, but I really was genuinely excited talking about this because I really agree. And that was a big unlock for me when I was 30. I was a huge runner. I I was an addicted runner. I hurt and I don't have- I could see that. Yeah. But I did not have the body type. When you see people who can run- I 100% agree with you.

By the way, it's so funny. You just said that had a runner on here. Do you know nick Thompson?

I saw that on Instagram. But no, I don't know who he is.

I think it's... And I've had a lot of people on here talk about this, that you need to have a very specific body type, in my opinion, to do these long, distant runs or be a real runner-runner, right? If you're a woman who has hips and this and that, that's been a real challenge for me. And I love running. But if your body type is not that way, I think there's... Yes, you can do it, but it's not going to be as easy as if you are someone who is more of an ectomorph. Do you know what an ectomorph is? No. An ectomorph is someone who's really narrow. They don't have the hips. They don't They're not someone who puts on weight easily. You know what I mean? They're more lean and more lean and mean. Like a mesomorph, you and I, I think, are more mesomorph, but you're a smaller mesomorph, is more someone who's athletic build, right? We have muscle, we have more of a hips, and we're more of a curvature, but we're more like strong fit in the middle. Then you have the endomorphs who are more of the very voluptuous, they're more curvy people.

Those people, the running will be very difficult, I think, when you're doing these long runs. People like us, we can do runs, but it's not as... I can't run 30 miles every day. I'll hurt myself.

Yeah, the injuries is what got me. I was complaining to my older brother one time about being short because every room I walk in, they're like, I thought you were going to be 5'10. And he was like, Like Neanderthal genes, short and strong. I was like, You're right. That's our anatomy.

You are like that.

But I carry my weight between here and here, so my knees just got pounded from all the running I'm seeing. So I just stopped, and that was very hard. But it was because I had this injury, and that's how I learned how to eat, though. I read Dr. Weil's book, Spontaneous Feeling, which totally changed my approach.

I like him.

He was the O. G.

I think he still is the O. G. He's the O. G. He's the O.

He's the O. He called all of this. Totally agree. I mean, the whole thing. But that approach to cellular health, that was the first time I understood nutrition. It flipped my... I had this horrible, which I think most women in our generation do because it was how we were raised and because culturally and through most people's moms, is that the weight pressure on women growing up was so negative. And that was a real fight for me, was that relationship with food and with weight. And that clouds your self-image. What you're talking about is is taking that and making it be empowered, whether you did that deliberately or not. But for me, that was the moment where the weight narrative really changed to be more about self-care and self-love versus self-hatred and all the food negativity. Because when you think about optimizing your cellular health, it's the length that straightens out the chain. That really helped me. And so what you're saying makes a lot... It just really resonates with me. That was a positive thing for you to focus on I also think, because you don't know my history, I wrote a book called Strong as a New Skinny many years ago.

Yeah, I read about that. And the thing is, I think life is about reframes, right? You got to reframe for something that you can achieve versus something that is like, I think anyone could be strong. Anyone could get stronger. But not everybody can be skinny. Let's just be honest. It's a real struggle for a lot of people. I believe there's a baseline that people have, and you can go up and down a little here and there, but you're always going to meet your baseline again. That's why these GLP ones are very interesting to me, right? I was just going to say that. It's a very interesting... I'm very curious about how... It's at the beginning stages, what happens in 5 or 10 years from now? Because what I've noticed with these GLP ones, and again, this is my opinion, everyone, so I don't want anyone to come after me, but what I have noticed is that it flat lines eventually. And I find that people who I know have been on it for a long time, their appetites are back. Because your body acclimate to anything and everything you do all the time. So yes, you can cycle it and you can maybe microdose it and all these other things.

But still, that to me is not a solution long term. And people can say, Oh, but there's all these other benefits, inflammation, and brain, and this, and that, and the other. Okay, maybe. Does it help with diabetes? Yes. We know that, to be true, right? But I think that shortcuts for your weight and for that type of lifestyle, there is no shortcut. People need to do the hard work. You need to eat properly, and you need to exercise. And so I think that this is thrown a real curve ball into a lot of these things. Even the idea of even we talked about self-acceptance. This is proving that this whole body positivity movement was a bunch of nonsense. Because the second that someone can shoot themselves with an injection to lose weight. Body positivity went right out the window, and everyone's now 11 pounds wandering around town, right? So there's a real interesting, I think, interesting thing about that in itself. I think that we have to be accepting things that we can do and then work towards those goals because everything, I think, is a ripple effect, right? If you prove to yourself that you can do the thing that will build yourself confidence, and you'll do it more and more and more.

And maybe you may not be a size zero, but you can be a size four, six, and eight and be happy with that because you're strong and you're capable and you have muscle and you have strength. And physical strength correlates with mental strength and vice versa. It works everything together. So I don't know. These GLP ones are very interesting to me, and I think they're being over... They've been taking too much. People are prescribing too often, and I'm really concerned about what the follow-up is going to be.

Well, I have an opinion on this. I could talk to you about this all day.

I know we can. Hold on. Okay, keep on going.

Okay, so quickly on GLP-1s. So I've been knee deep in this with Weight Watchers because not only do they prescribe GLP ones, but they have this companion program that does everything that you're saying, which is like, here's how you optimize nutrition, because it's meant to be used in the context of a lifestyle. But it's been interesting learning about it because my My perception of it was, oh, they're just going to be skinny for the rest. That's actually not true. It's what you're saying. You lose 20 to 30% of your body weight, and then your body set points. But what's interesting, and then from there, you have to diet. You've got to fight it with behavior. It just makes it easier because it quiets down the food nose. I think it's great. But the interesting thing about it that I think is really nice is that I've talked to multiple people on these, and when they hit that set point, they're content. They're like, that's where my body wants to be, and I'm good with it. I feel better. My macros are better. My lab work is better. I think it allows you emotionally to be content.

Whereas I've talked to a lot of people about this in the context of the work. A lot of people will lose 100 pounds and still look in the mirror and say, I know the scale tells me I lost that, but I don't see it. And I think with GLP-1s, it almost externalizes and makes it an objective conversation with themselves so that when they hit that set point, they're like, I'm good. Feel better, look better. That's That's what I hear from people, and I think that's nice.

What I find interesting about the GLP-1 and Weight Watchers is Weight Watchers' base, their foundation was based on these in-person meetings where people are showing accountability for doing the work. There's a disconnect between the GLP-1s, and they took out the meetings, and now they're doing the GLP-1s?

They still do the meetings, and that's all getting... Julie Rice is going to be really doing some really cool stuff. But it's interesting about GLP-1s. The reason they acquired Julie's company is because she was doing GLP-1 in-person workshops. Because when you get prescribed those things, you're going through it pretty much alone because most doctors don't have time or even the learning patterns to understand, and you're feeling all these side effects. You hit plateau point. So the first thing you hit is side effects, like feeling super nauseous or whatever it is. And really, the only way to get answers around that is to ask the 50 people in that workshop who are going through it at the exact same time as you. There's no one else who has the information. Those workshops become, I think, even more valuable on a GLP-1 journey. And then you hit a plateau point. Then the question is, how do you get past that? I think some percentage of doctors probably be right there with you, but a lot of them just don't have time. And it's not their core So I think actually the workshops have a lot of relevance in that journey, too.

Do they wean people? I mean, you probably don't know this question, but is there a process of weaning people off of them once they're on it for a while?

Yeah, it's called microdosing. And so what they do is they start to stretch out the doses. So I don't know, can you ever get off them?

That's my question.

I don't think so. I mean, maybe, but I think for most people, the hunger will come roaring back. It will be hard. And I'm not speaking for Weight Watchers. No, no, no. I'm just talking- No, no, no. This is not about- Yeah, I'm just speaking personally from what I understand to be true.

That's what I was saying earlier. People who I know in the fitness space, longevity space, health space, I know people who are doing the GLP-1s who are... There's no weight problem. It's just they're now doing it for all the other added benefits or because they want to fine tune. And so they do this microdosing. But even if you're doing that, you need to wean off. How do you stay on a medication forever? That's just what people do.

You space out the dosing. And so what happens is the hunger starts to come back.

So let's say you're on like- I've seen it many times.

Yeah, I've seen it, but they get used to surfing that. So the first, I don't know the exact, but when they first start their dosage cycle, they have no hunger. And then by the end of it, they can feel the hunger, and then it hits again, they redose. So it's just managing the doses. You downshift it.

But when you do three weeks of not doing it, I don't know. But from what I've seen with people, I've seen people really the pendulum swing really far back when they got off and they gained their weight back fast because your appetite comes back with a vengeance. Yeah.

I think that's right. Honestly, I think it's a net positive. I think it really helps people get through that breakthrough period of me.

I think so, too. What I think it's good for is getting you through the pump. Yeah. Getting Or just starting you, just igniting the fire. But the problem is people don't just do that for that. I know.

That's the reality. But I think it is so hard to lose weight. It really is. It's not hard for you, but it's hard for you.

Are you insane? It's very hard for me. It's hard. It's very hard. And by the way, I'm one of these people you asked me earlier, I have a lot of food noise. I think about food 24 hours a day, 24 hours a day. I'm hungry all the time. And let me tell you, working out has done me no favors in that way. I bet. Because I get starving. I know. But I think that I've accepted that about myself, but that's my neurosis. It just is. I'm not going to lie. It is. And I work out more. By the way, now I work out more for my mental situation because it keeps me more in check. I'm not doing it to lose weight, the fitness stuff. I'm really not. I just accept the fact that I work out because I have to work out for my brain.

Agreed. For me, too. It's mental health. But yeah, I think it kills... It's just very enabling. It's a helpful tool. And it's a core pillar of all of our lives is your weight and your health.

A hundred %. Have you tried one in any of these? No. Okay, so let's just wrap up this GLP-1 because we could talk about it afterwards. I have all these other questions, but now we got to go. But you're going to have to come back here. I'd love to come back, Jen. Okay. Because literally, I was talking to you. None of my questions were answered. Not one. Not one. Except I read co founder and CEO of Chief Detective. That's the only thing I read off of this page. So Guys, please follow Emily. She is so knowledgeable. Like I said, if you're interested in any type of scaling business, growth marketing, performance marketing, influencer marketing. Anything else? Brand. Brand marketing, obviously. Brand marketing. I forgot the biggest one.

The combined journey of life and work.

That to me is a big one. One question for you, what is your daily routine? What do you do?

I wake up early. I set my alarm for 5: 30. So if I actually sleep that night, I wake up at 5: 30. I meditate most days. I drink coffee and do my eye masks. I eat a salad for breakfast every single morning. You do? I do. Yeah. I do a diet called Metabolic Balance. Now I do Weight Watchers, too.

What is this metabolic- It's this weird old German health diet that manages your metabolic system.

Basically, it's a health diet. So it's eat five hours apart. It's one protein at every meal. There's this rule set that's just really worked. I like routine. I like being in a strait jacket. I like not having... It's like, I don't even I don't think about it.

Tell me what it is. So you have for breakfast, you have a salad?

I have this salad with pear and nuts and seeds and flax oil, and it's this very healthy salad. Okay. And then I don't snack, no snacking. So five hours between meals. And then for lunch, I have another salad, and then five hours. And then I have dinner, which is some form of a protein, a vegetable, and a fruit. And that's what I eat every single day. And then the weekends are a disaster. So then I eat a 10-year-old, and then I make up for it. So that's why sometimes, like going on Weight Watchers was great. I pealed off the 5 pounds that over time with holiday and spring break, I'll gain.

By the way, I still think to this day, Weight Watchers is the most effective best program out there, bar none. The point system, actually- It works. It works. It works. It works because everything's about portions. That's how you lose weight. And I think it's still the most effective. It's like the tried and true one. Anyway, and that was not... I'm not going to be paid by you weight watchers. I should be, but anyway. Emily, it was wonderful meeting you.

Same, Jen. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for being here. Follow Emily. Bye, everybody.