Transcript of Isn’t Love Enough? | 8

1967, Charlottesville, Virginia. Stevenson has had an idea. He's at the locksmiths, Brown's lock and safe, to be precise. And no, he hasn't lost his keys. This is an experiment.

He's buying a padlock, a combination padlock. $16.95, so about a $160 today. Not cheap. But then he wants this lock to last a long time. I mean, maybe for eternity.

So it's worth getting a good 1. The professor heads back to his office. And I think it's fair to say he's feeling pretty excited about all this. He's been inspired by an English woman, a missus Greaves, whose dead husband left behind a safety deposit box, a locked safety deposit box with a combination lock. She wants to get into it, see if there's anything valuable inside but there's a problem.

Missus Greaves doesn't know the combination. So she and her son try various random sets of numbers. They try and they try but it's useless. A waste of time until

1 day, missus Greaves had the experience of seeming to be in contact with her deceased husband who was trying to give her the correct combination. When she tried the sequence of numbers which came to her in this fashion, the lock opened and the lid of the box sprang up.

So, yeah, this gives Stevenson his bright idea. He arrives back at his office with his brand new padlock and he selects a combination. It's like the lock on a safe. It has 1 dial, which goes up to 50, from which you choose 3 numbers. Are you following?

That means a 125,000 possibilities. Stevenson doesn't write the combination down. He doesn't share it with anyone. It's vital that nobody can work out this number. He remembers it using a memorable phrase that only he knows.

Stevenson has thought all of this through. Of course, he has. He says

I have no fear whatever of forgetting it on this side of the grave. And if I remember anything on the other side, I shall surely remember it.

He clicks the padlock shut and places it in his drawer. Then he tells a colleague that after his death, he will try to communicate the combination to whomever he can via whatever means he can. Maybe a dream. If he's successful, that's pretty darn good evidence that death is not the end. That in some way, shape or form, our personality, our soul, our essence survives.

Then, of course, Stevenson does what he always does. He writes a paper on the subject.

The combination lock test for survival.

Stevenson's 49. How long before he has a chance to test his hypothesis? Well, for a man with a chronic lung condition, all bets are off. So that padlock stays in Stevenson's drawer throughout all of those trips to the Pollocks, throughout all of those trips to India and the Far East gathering case studies. It's there, still in that drawer, as the sixties turns into the seventies.

As Stevenson gathers even more case studies. It's there as Florence Pollock dies. As the seventies turn into the eighties. As Stevenson's first wife, Octavia, dies. As John Pollock dies.

As Lauren Pollock is born, as Stevenson amasses yet more case studies. It's in there as Stevenson gets remarried to a second wife, Margaret. That lock is still there as the 19 eighties turns into the nineties, as Stevenson takes his last field trip. It's there as the new millennium dawns, as Gillian Pollock dies in 2002. And it's still there in his desk drawer in 2007, as Stevenson lies in his bed in the nursing home, a very, very sick man watched over by his wife and brother.

Stevenson is 88, and he's breathing his last breaths. It's time. Time to crack open the padlock. Time to unlock the truth. This is Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House.

I'm Will Sharp.

Episode 8, Isn't Love Enough? The following episode contains mentions of sexual abuse. Discretion is advised. If you or someone you know need support, go to apple.com/heretohelp.

John's granddaughter, Joanna, thinks the Pollock family have experienced more bad luck than most. In fact, she has a term for it, as she told producer Poppy.

The Pollock curse, we call it.

And when you say the Pollock curse, what do you mean?

If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong. I think it started with Joanna and Jacqueline because he was on the milk round. The kids were killed, and it was just everything after that failed.

And, certainly, Jennifer Pollock has had some pretty tough times in her life. Her first marriage wasn't a happy 1. They divorced. Then she lost a partner in a completely horrific way.

He fell 30 feet to his death. He fell 30 feet. I don't know whether he was post or whether he fell because I heard this almighty bang, and I saw 2 cars had crashed together. I opened my flat door upstairs. That's why I'm laying down on the floor with the arms spread like that.

So unimaginable. And as we've heard, Jennifer lost her parents, John and Florence, when she was in her twenties. Both had heart attacks. Then she lost her twin sister, Gillian. She was just 44.

She had a series of heart attacks, then died from an infection following heart surgery. It was their brother, Ian, who broke the news.

Ian came up to me and just said Jill's dead. And I just could not which could could we? It was just horrendous. My awful. It was the most awfulest thing I've ever 1 of the awfulest things I've been through.

Awful. So early deaths, failed relationships, estrangements, failed businesses. If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong. And when Joanna talks about the Pollock curse, she's clear on who it all comes back to, where the blame lies. All of it.

She pins it all on John.

I don't think there would have been a Pollock curse without him because he was the root and stem of everything, you know?

Now, we've heard these next clips before, but they're worth hearing again. Remember, this is how Joanna and Lisa describe their grandfather and his reincarnation claims.

Truthfully, narcissistic gaslighting little man.

Pathological, narcissistic, liar, self aggrandizing, hateful, pathetic little man, you know. And he roped everybody into it, everybody. He tainted everybody.

He didn't care who he upset, who he hurt in the process. It was all about John Pollock. And it's to set the record straight that it was him, nobody else.

So, yes, it was all John's big lie. And everyone in the family paid the price, none more so than Jennifer and Gillian.

The twins were you know, they had their 15 minutes of fame, and then they were thrown aside. My grandfather destroyed them, just destroyed them, you know, to aggrandize himself.

Strong words, but Jennifer sees things differently, like, really, really differently as Poppy finds out.

Joanna and Liza very strongly felt that that your dad kind of made it all up, basically, and felt really, like, he intentionally made it up because he wanted the attention. That's their position.

That's not right. No.

But I just wanted to ask you because to be fair to you to say what their version was.

He wasn't like that. He wouldn't have even made lies up, I think, he what he said was the truth, the whole truth, As he believed it and his prediction came true about us being born, I think he would have gone through all that and and with us as well. Now, he would If he if he and put us all through that, if he didn't if he was lying about it. He's a very, very, very big spiritualist. And he really and truly, from the bottom of his eye, he believed that we re reincarnated.

So you think they've got it wrong?

I think they've definitely got it wrong.

So maybe John didn't lie. John wasn't the sort of man who would lie. He just wasn't a liar. He believed it all from the bottom of his heart. And according to Jennifer, he certainly wouldn't have coached the twins or told them what to say because that's what Lisa suspected.

Yeah. I hope you don't mind me asking because I say because they say different, I've gotta ask you, you know Oh, yeah. Exactly. What they said.

And That's true.

You know, their perception was that maybe you'd been told what to say. No.

My mom and dad were never pushed anything or anything. If they say, if you can't remember, don't say nothing. But if you can remember something, tell them. And make sure it is the truth. Yeah.

Don't lie about it. Just tell the honest truth.

So he did say that. He said, actually, tell the truth

and don't lie about it.

And there's 1 other important thing. Remember this?

Do the twins know they had 2 sisters who passed away?

Oh, no. We've never told them. Never told them. As you can see, we don't even have any photographs, though. We kept all the photos in a drawer.

Have you ever talked to them about the accident? Oh, no. No. We've never talked about it.

No. No.

Which is important because if the twins didn't know about their sisters and the crash, it makes what the twins said as little kids much more credible. So when did Jennifer find out about the crash?

We didn't really know anything about the girls until we till we went into our teenage years. So we just lived a normal life, really. I mean, I suppose if we knew about the girls before we were teenagers, things might have been different, but no nobody nobody ever mentioned it till we went into our teens.

Jennifer says that John and Florence never spoke about it. Her brothers never spoke about it. It was all a tightly kept secret until that documentary team came to visit. Only then does she remember John and Florence sitting her and Gillian down and telling them.

You're old enough now to understand this, that you lost 2 sisters. 1 was 6 and 1 11, and a and a car cry I mean, a car come up in the pavement and killed them. God, that would mean Jill would like gobsmacked.

So according to Jennifer, it's all just as John told it. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And Jennifer's husband, Steve, doesn't doubt that either.

Yeah. In nearly 30 years, the story she told me eventually, which she didn't tell me about at first, only after we were married, but the stories never change. They're all not 1 bit. You know, it's all the same.

And you understand the skepticism?

Yeah. I understand the skepticism very well. I wasn't myself at first because I thought is John the, you know, try and make a few pound here or something, you know. But, no, the guy, as over the years I've come to realize, he's a very honest man. Yeah.

He just called it as it was. He never told the twins, as I know. He never told them what to say or prepped them in any way for these interviews with doctor Ian Stevenson. In fact, he never spoke about it to him.

So, okay, let's take 1 last look at the evidence, shall we, in detail. The evidence that John put forward, the evidence that Stevenson scrutinized on his many trips to see the Pollocks, trips which started in the sixties and continued right through to the 19 eighties. And let's start with Hexham. Remember Hexham? That was where Jacqueline and Joanna were killed in the car crash.

John and Florence took the twins there for the first time when they were 4 years old.

And they pointed towards the playground. Right, Fosse?

Yes. But, again, the playground was out of sight. I couldn't have known it was there. Really?

Yes. It was Jacqueline and Joanna that played there. The twins never. Extraordinary. Extraordinary.

But there's a bit of a problem.

Do you remember being in Hexham in that moment happening?

No. I don't.

Then there's the dolls. Remember, as little kids, Gillian and Jennifer apparently knew the names of their dead sisters' dolls without being told. Well, Jennifer remembers the dolls, but the whole names thing, that's all very, very hazy. Okay. Fair enough.

She was only 4. So what about the phobia of cars? Kids who say that they're reincarnated often have phobias, phobias related to how they died in a previous life. Do you remember this?

The twins act very strangely around cars, doctor Stevenson.

Yes. I mean, they're much more scared of the road than other children their age. I I I'm sure of it.

You mean when they're crossing the road?

Yes. Well, I remember Joanna and Jacqueline were very careless, very careless. Oh, and not so the twins. Not not Jennifer and Gillian. No.

No. They always stop. Always hold my hand. Very, very careful.

I see. And remember, of course, they know nothing about the accident.

Of course.

I can remember that main deal were absolutely terrified to cross a road from 1 side

and Yeah.

When we were young though, me mom used to when you cross the road to go over the other side, we're absolutely terrified crossing the road. I don't know why I could I just think it was a fright of the traffic. I don't know what that was.

Okay. So maybe we are getting somewhere. In fact, even now, Jennifer doesn't like cars.

No. I'm not keen on traveling in cars at all, mate.

Really? So to this day, you're still not keen on cars?

No. Not no. Not in cars. No.

And there's this.

John, there's something I had in my notes from last time, and I wanted to ask you about it. Something about brushing hair?

Oh, yes. Correct. Joanna and Jacqueline loved combing and brushing other people's hair, especially mine, and, well, the twins started doing that as well. They like combing my hair as if it's the most natural thing in the world.

Do you ever remember combing each other's or other people's hair, particularly your dad's hair? It says Stephenson reported that you both love to comb people's hair, especially your father's, and that this was something that your sisters had also loved too.

Absolutely spot on. 100,000,000 percent. Yes. Used to love combing my dad's hair. Used to love combing my mom's hair.

And then get some curlers and pretending we're putting curlers and curling her hair. Yeah. I remember that a 100%.

So, yes, this is strong stuff. Jennifer's memory of that feels very clear, crystal clear.

Anything else like that? Yes. Yeah.

The way Jennifer holds her pen, she holds it in her fist. And that's exactly how Jacqueline used to hold her pen. Isn't it Flossie? Yes. That's right.

They used to say that you held your pen like the sister who died. You kind of wrote like this with a fist. Do you remember that at all? Yes.

I can remember that. Yeah. Because she'll used to hold it like that in between her 2 fingers or something like that.

I see. And you held it in a fist.

I had it like that.

Again, Jennifer doesn't seem to be in any doubt about the whole pen thing. So this is all starting to feel like much more solid ground.

Also, the way Gillian walks, her gait, the way she holds herself, it's exactly the same as Joanna walked. Sort of a splay footed, you might say.

Did you and Gillian walk differently?

Yeah. Because when Jill walked, it was funny. When Jill walked, she walked with her feet like that, like like a penguin. Engine, George. That's what people used to be.

Our nickname is cool. Said you're penguins. It's just got

they call them penguins.

Because that's what it says in the report was that you had different gaits, as they call it, and that she did have sort of angled feet.

Yes. She used to walk with her feet up like that.

Wait. Hang on. Did she do that just to goof around, or did she actually walk like a penguin?

She actually walked like that, honestly. They called Jillian Pollock the penguin.

So you walked you walked normally, like, just straight footed. You're gonna walk for me now? I'm actually gonna show you how

to sort of demonstrate. Yeah. Exactly.

So, yes, Jennifer gives Poppy an extensive demonstration of how she walks, and we can confirm firsthand, Jennifer does not walk like a penguin.

So so actually, on that point, that's completely true that because, again, apparently, he noticed that she walked differently to you.

That 1 is spot on a 100%. That 1, the feet.

Once again, Jennifer's memory is very clear on all of that. And, of course, most important of all is this.

Jennifer Love, come here a moment. Stand here, love. Stand in front of doctor Stevenson. Show me your waist. Look.

There it is. Look. There's the 1 birthmark and there, just above the left eye. That's the other. Can you see that?

Just there.

Poppy asked Jennifer if she still has that birthmark on her waist.

I don't know if I can see it.

Do you think

that overside?

Nothing there. Is it on the other side? Or maybe it's a bit it might be a bit lower, but

It moved.

Oh, there it is. Yes. Another 1? Little brown little tiny brown birthmark there.

Birthmark on waist, check. But what about the birthmark above her eye? That's the crucial 1 because Stevenson saw a photo of her dead sister, Jacqueline, which seemed to prove that she had a scar in exactly the same place. Does Jennifer still have that birthmark?

I've got a birthmark just in between there, and it just goes just a tiny little bit there.

Because from here, I can't really see it. So you do have that birthmark?

Yeah. Just just just up in between my eyebrows, they're there.

1 of the reasons Poppy can't see the birthmark is that Jennifer usually wears makeup.

And then maybe I was thinking we could use your magnifying glass and, like, have a look at it?

Yeah. Yeah.

If you need a magnifying glass, this is the right place. Jennifer and Steve have 2 rather good ones.

It's double magnifying glass. Oh.

0 my goodness. You just went and removed your makeup, did you?

Yeah. Just off just off the top of me.

Okay. Great. I'm just gonna use your magnifying glass and get really close. Yeah. Okay.

I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. You've got there it is. It's like a little tiny birthmark.

You wouldn't notice, but it is sort of a penny size and kind of pinky in color.

That's right.

Yeah. So pale pink next to your kind of natural skin tone, but it's it is very distinctly different color.

That correct. Yeah. That could yeah. That's it. Yeah.

If I look at the picture of Jacqueline and the location of it let me have a look by comparison. It's pretty spot on. Yours kind of moves into the center a little bit more. Maybe hers is a bit more distinctly over her left eye, but it's a similar discoloration and probably about a penny size as well, so Yeah. It's sort of spot on.

I think she's perfect.

So, yeah. Do you you would say it's a pretty good match?

Yeah. Definitely.

I would say it's a pretty good match. Bang on.

Bang on. Yeah.

So Jennifer still has that birthmark. Seeing is believing. And it's in pretty much the same place as Jacqueline's scar. So I guess what this is all building up to is the big question. We know by now what everyone else believes, but what does Jennifer believe?

So on the question of, do you believe you are reincarnated, would you say?

I'm like, so 88880 percent think it's reincarnation than the other amateurs a bit. Because I think there must be something there. Definitely.

It'd be nice to solve the mystery once and for all, but I think it's always gonna remain a mystery. So to people, they met their own minds up. They can believe it. They cannot believe it. It's what we've told you is true to the best of our abilities.

No.

Look at that.

Her father never lied as we know of.

No. My dad no. I I guarantee he didn't know he wouldn't lie anything about that. He wasn't that sort of person.

Jennifer is certain that her dad didn't lie about his beliefs. But even Jennifer says that John was no angel, far from it, that he had affairs more than 1. And then she told us this story from when she was about 16.

We knew that he had an affair because he took us to a woman's house. And my dad said, if the husband comes back first, just say that he come to see his wife. But, actually, my dad was seeing his wife. It put me in an absolute awkward position to say, I'm lying for my dad. He's coming that guy walks in from work, and he said, what are you doing here?

I was, oh, we're just coming to see your wife.

And just here, he brought you along as his cover story?

Yeah. Just yeah. He did. So when I said, it's nice seeing you again. I said, I'll see you soon To to the wife, well, I've never even met or even seen.

And we got back and I said to me, dad, don't ever put me in that blooming position again. I said, you really embarrassed me. He said, no. He said, I know. I'm sorry, sir.

But what could I have done? I said, you should have left her alone.

So that is a significant story because it shows that John was more than capable of lying. Not only that, it shows that he wasn't beyond using his children to perpetuate these lies. And then there's John's study. John's retreat, where he'd smoke, drink Scotch, listen to his classical music, and read his books, that all sounds pretty mainstream stuff, but that's not all that went on in there.

But his office was just upstairs. And he used to go and jump and he just said to me, what the heck have he got now?

He used

to have these, like, voodoo dolls and he used to be sat on his desk and he'd said to me, what do you do with it with pins? No. No. No. He's got that with, like, pins into the the voodoo and I'm thinking to me, like, what?

Anyway, eventually, he got rid of them.

Using his children to cover up his affairs, voodoo dolls, even Jennifer thinks this stuff is a bit off color. But voodoo dolls are trivial in comparison to what comes next. This is something else entirely. And it's where things get really, really dark. And this bit is definitely not suitable for kids.

So feel free to skip ahead 2 minutes if you need to. But we have to tell you because Joanna wants us to tell you. And no, it certainly wasn't just drinking and smoking and music and voodoo that went on in John's office.

Come on come on up to the study, Joanna. You know, we'll read some books, and and you just knew. You just knew.

And these books, well, let's just say these were not books suitable for little children.

All about autopsies and murder victims. I'm just like, I'm sure I was only like 3.

Violent things. Horrible things. In fact, the worst things you can imagine.

When I'm just, you know, flicking through and not thinking anything of it, you know. And that's when, you know, the touching starts, and you're my good little girl. And I just you would always be on your own because then there's no witnesses. You know?

Remember what Joanna told us about the doll's house that she loved playing with?

I oh, god. This is gonna sound so terrible. I asked him if I could have it once. I said, when you die, granddad, can I have the doll's house? And that was my payment.

Of course, you can, Joanna.

Payment. So, yes. What happened in John's study, that was the payment.

He was a monster. He really was. He was a pathetic monster. You know? Just a pathetic, fat, little, old man monster.

God. I still hate him. I I do. He's a he was a vile human being.

Off mic, we asked Jennifer about the allegations of sexual abuse, and she said it was the first time she'd heard about it. She told us that she'd never seen or heard anything like that. Stevenson dies on February 8, 2007. His brother and wife are living in the same nursing home, and a friend is visiting. Later, the friend writes

We all waited, perhaps as if he might come back. We all sat or stood silent. He did not come back.

But as we know, it's not as simple as all that. Remember, Stevenson had a theory about

The intermission between lives.

So Stevenson could well be there, waiting, in the middle of his own intermission, maybe enjoying a gin and tonic. But the big question is, did Stevenson himself believe in all that? Where did Stevenson think he was off to as he took his last labored breaths? Well, the truth is the man himself kind of dodged the question.

I am frequently asked whether I myself believe in reincarnation. I decline to answer this question because my beliefs should make no difference to anyone asking such a question.

But he does say this.

Before the modern investigations, a belief in reincarnation had to rest on the basis of faith, usually inculcated by the scriptures or oral teachings of a traditional religion. Now, 1 may, if 1 wishes, believe in reincarnation on the basis of evidence.

Yet it seems not enough people wished to believe. Remember, Stevenson saw himself in the same mold as Charles Darwin. The problem was most of his academic colleagues did not see him that way at all. Tom Schroeder.

I think he never really felt that his work had gotten the acceptance that he had always hoped it would. So, I mean, it was a little bit sad at the end, I think, for him.

And here's Jim Matlock.

Stevenson did have a difficult time. He really did. A lot of the skeptics, most of them, didn't even bother to read his work. They just criticized it, and he was really not prepared for the degree of pushback that he got. And I think he was disappointed, really, for the rest of his life.

So was it all in vain? Jim Matlock says no. According to Jim, in the West, before Stevenson, reincarnation just wasn't a thing.

It wasn't really known in Britain or in the States. It really wasn't known. But Stevenson put all that out there and on the table. And by spending 40 years at it, he put out so much data that now it's impossible to ignore it.

Jim is a true believer. He's a research fellow at the Parapsychology Foundation. Though for him, belief is completely the wrong word.

For For me, it's not a belief. It's a conclusion that I've reached on the basis of the evidence. I see enough evidence for the survival of bodily death. What I want to do is understand how it happens. Because if reincarnation is a fact, then this changes just about everything about life.

Right? It's gonna change everything.

Jesse Behring has sifted through hundreds of Stevenson's cases for his forthcoming book, The Incredible Afterlives of Doctor Stevenson.

He was a sort of rogue, but almost necessary figure in the history of science because they are a set of findings that, if you look at them in the right light, at least, really makes you second guess everything you thought you knew.

Here's Jeffrey Long of Elizabethtown College.

I'm looking forward to the day that this is taken seriously as a field that science explores. And I think Stevenson is an important pioneer in that regard. That if that time comes, we'll look back on Stephenson as someone who helped pave the way for the new paradigm.

And here's how Stephenson saw himself.

I am the scientist who provides the evidence with which others can form their own conclusions.

So back to the Pollock case. What if the whole thing was just a hoax? John Pollock was faking it all. Where would that leave doctor Stevenson and his science? Well, you'd have to say it would be a pretty massive fail.

Right? Remember, Stevenson said that the Pollock case provided

Some of the strongest evidence known to me in favor of reincarnation.

But what did he really have? What was that evidence? Well, here's where we're at. There's really only 2 pieces of evidence that don't rely on John and Florence for verification. The birthmark, which Stevenson verified and Poppy has now verified too, and the phobia of cars, which Jennifer has confirmed.

Everything else is down to John and Florence's word. Their word that the behavior of the twins was consistent with the behavior of their dead sisters, Jacqueline and Joanna. As we know, Stevenson saw himself as a man of science. He was rigorous and he was a shrink. A shrink who read people for a living, who prided himself on having a really well honed bullshit detector.

So if it was John's big lie, it was Stevenson's epic fail. But beyond the Pollock case, is Stevenson part of an even more epic fail? Because our story starts in the sixties. Right? And there's an argument that says everything changes in the sixties.

And it's not us saying this, by the way. It's people like Kurt Andersen in his book, Fantasyland. And the theory goes something like this. Up until the sixties, science and reason were 1 thing. Faith and belief were something else entirely.

But during the sixties, serious scientists like Stevenson start dabbling in stuff like parapsychology and studying reincarnation, that kind of thing. Suddenly, science and reason and faith and belief get all muddled up.

What is real? What is fiction? What is fantasy? What is reality?

That's Kurt Andersen. So, yeah, science and belief start to challenge each other in the same space. The danger being, nobody can tell 1 from the other anymore, which grows into the political space.

I am most troubled about the direction in which we're going, you know, and the post truth, post scientific age that we may be entering.

That's 1 theory, that Stevenson was part of a really big cultural change. Interesting idea. So how do we square it all? All the different accounts, all the contradictions, all the inconsistencies, The John that Lisa and Joanna knew, John the grandfather, controlling, abusive. And the John that Jennifer knew, John the father, loving, fun.

Well, maybe Lauren can help us out here. Remember, she's John's granddaughter, but he died 2 years before she was born. We told her everything, and we asked her what she makes of it all. Now, she already knew that her dad, John's son, Keith, hated John. And she knew the rough outline of the family legend, saw it on that grainy VHS in that religious studies class in high school.

But beyond that, most of it, Lauren's been hearing for the first time.

I believe that, yes, he was not a very nice man. And I think he probably did some really horrible things. But with the twins he was probably an absolutely wonderful doting father who treated them like princesses. Because they you know were his absolute joy. They were his daughters back from the dead that he was so grateful for.

He probably wanted to protect them and pretend like nothing had ever happened. And maybe the boys were a reminder of that awful past. I definitely think parents can do that. But, you know, you change in life, don't you?

So the other thing is they say that it was a hoax. And Joanna specifically says she believes that the girls were were coached or encouraged.

I could easily think like that as well. The only thing that makes me believe that it's real is because I have a belief in spirituality. I believe that people don't pass away. I believe that spirits live on. And I know that I feel spirits.

So I feel my sister, and my mom, and my dad. And so, for 2 little girls that had died, it's not weird for me to think that they would come back in another way through other people. You know, that could make sense to me. Whether or not it's the truth, whether or not anything that John said or the twins that you know, and whether or not anything like that actually happened, I've always grown up with a belief that something could I'm open to the idea.

Lauren and Jennifer have never spoken about any of this stuff. They're hearing most of it for the first time in this podcast. And in truth, they barely know each other. They haven't seen each other since Lauren was a kid. But now Lauren is keen for them to talk.

And let's face it. They've got plenty to talk about. They've got a lot in common. I mean, they're both Pollocks at the end of the day, but it goes much further than that. They've both lost a lot of people in their lives, both lost their parents young, both lost a sister young, And they're both spiritual.

Lauren feels spirits all around her. The spirits of her loved ones. And Jennifer does too. The spirit of her twin sister, Gillian, who died over 20 years ago. Still with her, in her, all the time.

Because on night time, I can feel somebody touching me. I can literally feel something. Like, I'm sitting here now, and I can feel Gill's body coming through mine now. I can hear it as the way she used to talk in the speech and I can feel it on me now. Can't explain to anybody what it's like if I'm upset or something like that somebody whispered to me a duck don't cry don't cry Jenny don't cry And I thought, is that you, Jill?

And it just went. Wow. You know, I sat there and said, don't cry. Don't cry. Don't cry, Jenny.

Don't cry.

So Lauren and Jennifer believe, big time. But not all the Pollocks are believers. Joanna in particular.

I'm not spiritual. I have no faith in any sort of invisible being. I have faith in human beings killing each other and doing shitty things to each other. But as long as you personally live your life and don't cause harm to others, when you die, you're done. You know?

Gosh, I couldn't do this all over again. No. I don't have the closet space.

Okay. That's fair enough. And now, there's 1 last thing we wanna tell you. This 1 time, Stevenson was caught off guard. He was with Carol Bowman, who we've heard from, and she asked him a question to which the answer is very revealing.

For once, it gives us a glimpse into the real Stevenson. Not Stevenson, the man of science, who fancied himself as the next Charles Darwin, but Stevenson, the man. Stevenson, who lost a child and he nursed his first wife through her final months. And maybe, this gives us a glimpse into his motivation. Why he dedicated a lifetime, a long lifetime to reincarnation in the face of hostility and ridicule, even though it was a trial, a cross to bear.

So, Caroll asked him why he thought we'd be reincarnated into the same family. Stevenson, whose defining work is 2,268 pages long, answered in just 3 words.

Isn't love enough?

Isn't love enough? Now, Lauren really liked this idea and it got her thinking about Joanna and Jacqueline.

I think that's really lovely. I think his 2 little girls, you know, you can imagine whether they would have, like, talked about it together, you know, and been like, oh, where should we go? Once they died, they've been like, what do we do now? You know, where do we go now? Yeah well let's just go home.

And it's nice to think that maybe they had each other. They weren't acting alone. They were working out together what they wanted to do and where they wanted to go. And how to move forward after they'd died. You know, your comfort is your family, so it's like that's where you feel the most safe and the most loved.

So you return there because, yeah, that's, that's all you ever want in life.

Love. That's all you ever want in life. And isn't it love that sustains Lauren and Jennifer's beliefs? It's not evidence, not proof, not those things that Stevenson spent so many years hunting for. But love, love is enough.

So what of the Pollock curse? Even Joanna, the nonbeliever, believed in that. Well, she thinks that the curse is now broken, consigned to the past. She's living in California, surrounded by those pistachio farms, sewing her renaissance costumes. The north of England feels a very, very long way away, and she's still intending to repair that doll's house.

Her sister, Lisa, meanwhile, loves spending time with her mom and her grandkids. She drives over every week to see them. Lauren had a very happy childhood. She lives by the sea now, the spirits of her lost loved ones all around her. She's moving in with her partner any day now, and they're expecting a baby.

While Jennifer and Steve, they just seem very happy together after nearly 30 years of marriage. Jennifer watched over, protected, comforted by the spirit of her twin sister, Gillian. All is well. So this is the end, but what do we make of it all? What's the takeaway?

Well, faith, surely, does have something to tell us about this story, about the Pollock story and about John Pollock. Because remember what we said at the start. Everything in this story does come back to John. So let's try this, and you can take it or leave it. Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

And, reincarnation or not, maybe that's about as close as you can get to an eternal truth. But I reckon the question that you're really asking is this. What about Stephenson's padlock? Has the spirit of our professor managed to crack it open? Well, the answer to that is no.

Sorry about that. The padlock is still firmly locked, but Oh, hang on a minute. What's this? 384. Doctor Stevenson?

652. Doctor Stevenson? 3384. You've been listening to Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House and hosted by me, Will Sharp. The producer is Poppy Damon.

Extrasensory is written by Lawrence Grisell. Additional production by Saren Jones. Original music by Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nank Munnell, and Toby Mattimon. Sound design and mix engineering by by Vulcan Kiseltug and Daniel Lloyd Evans. The part of John Pollock was played by Peter Pevely.

Florence Pollock by Jasmine Hyde, and doctor Ian Stevenson by Mark Arnold. Research by Alan Sargent. Fact checking by Jessie Behring and Karen Walton. Our head of rights is Jim Peek. Legal counsel is Angie Mehl.

Our managing producer is Amica Shortino Nolan. The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer and head of content at Blanchard House is Lawrence Grisel.