Transcript of “Just Kiss Already” with Lily Chu New

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Guaranteed human. Welcome to EarSay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club. I'm Cal Penn. Each episode, I dive into a different audiobook with a special guest. Last time, Wil Wheaton and I got into his deeply personal new narration of Stephen King's The Body, the story that was adapted to the film Stand By Me, which of course, Wil also starred in. It was a beautiful and deep full-circle conversation, and I'm still thinking about it. This week, we're going in a different direction. We're keeping it light. We'll have some laughs, we'll have some romance, but we are absolutely going to talk about decomposing bodies. Today, we're talking about Lily Chu's Just Kiss Already, an Audible Original romantic comedy that is one of the most fun listens I've had in a long time. Here's a quick spoiler-free synopsis. Ben Song is a forensic anthropologist. He runs a taphonomic research lab in Canada, basically a body farm where scientists study how human remains decompose. He's serious, methodical, and private, and he secretly writes cozy mystery novels about a Jazz Age detective named Lady Petronella Armitage. Lauren Wei is a former TV star trying to reinvent herself as a filmmaker. She directed and starred in the adaptation of Ben's first novel, Poisoned Vessel.

She's ambitious, warm, and media savvy, and she has a crush on this mysterious author. But there's a problem. When Ben sees the movie, he hates it. Key characters have been changed, the science is wrong, and he's convinced Lauren betrayed his trust. Then a screenshot of his horrified reaction at the screening goes viral, and it becomes a meme called Fed Up Fred. And suddenly the film's production company wants Ben on the press tour alongside Lauren to spin the whole thing into positive buzz. So now one person who can't stop talking and one who would rather count bones in a lab are thrown together for a whirlwind media tour, a film festival, and eventually a small-town showdown involving Highland cattle. It's a story about two very different people learning that vulnerability isn't weakness, and the producers leveraged the full power of the audiobook format that. First, each chapter opens with a short excerpt from one of Ben's Lady Petronella novels, voiced by Nicola Barber.

They sound like this: Petronella raised the scalpel high, gave her lipstick a quick check in the blade's reflection, and thrust it home.

The chapters alternate between being from Ben's perspective and then from Lauren's perspective. Ben's chapters are narrated by the star of Kim's Convenience and Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, Simu Liu. Lauren's chapters are narrated by Grammy winner Phillipa Soo, best known as Eliza from Hamilton. So as you move through the story, you're getting it from two different perspectives, each in a different voice. Let me play you a taste of how that works. Here's the moment that Ben and Lauren meet at an industry screening. Ben put away the thoughts of nauseating sandwiches and turned to see a striking woman stroll down the aisle. It was Lauren Way. His body reacted as if he'd stuck a fork in a toaster. When Lauren paused beside him and made eye contact, it was like he took the toaster and stepped in a puddle. Ben rose to his feet. "B.H. Denver," he said, introducing himself by his author pseudonym and feeling like an absolute prat. And here is that same dynamic from Lauren's side of things.

She'd wanted to run a finger down his nose and across those high cheekbones to his full lips. The feeling had taken her by surprise, and she hadn't been able to resist clasping his hands in both of hers. Then the thing she kept thinking about happened. Lauren had been in the entertainment industry for a long time. She was used to the slightly distracted moment when her face and body, her clothes and hair, were quickly assessed, rated, and ranked. Ben didn't do that. His eyes never left hers to check her over, and she felt like she was being seen for the first time in years.

See what I mean? It makes the slow burn romance incredibly satisfying. You know these two are falling for each other way before they do. Joining me today to talk about Just Kiss Already is the woman who dreamed this whole thing up, author Lily Chu. Lily Chu, welcome to EarSay.

Hello, hello. Thank you for having me.

Of course, thanks for joining our club. Um, so I need to tell you that this book made me laugh out loud on multiple occasions, which I very much enjoyed. It also made me surprisingly emotional about body decomposition research, which I did not see coming. Um, and I love that kind of like thoughtful combination. I'm also one of those weird— like, there was a docuseries that I hosted for Amazon I guess right after COVID it probably came out. And one of the episodes was on the death industry. And one of the places we visited was one of those kind of natural decomposition places where they get a lot of land. And it was actually very cathartic and very kind to see people talk about this and explore it without stigma in a way that made me question things. But I'm also a comedian first and foremost. So this does— A lot of these. So, for, for a forensic anthropologist who writes cozy mysteries and an actress-turned-director, how did you land on this combo?

That's a really good question. I would love to have a good answer, but like most of the books, it's a, it's a mix of a bunch of things that all come together. So, for this one, um, I actually have a degree in archeology. I used to work as an archeologist. I desperately wanted to be a forensic osteologist, so this was a great way for me to revisit some past career regrets and feel bad about myself. So that was fun. I've always been interested in what happens to us when we're gone. I know it sounds super morbid, it really does, but, uh, previous books I've written have been about celebration of life planners and obituary writers, you know, that whole process. And I was reading a book, and I think it was called All That Remains by Sue Black, and there was a chapter a forensics lab that needed funding. And the original idea was actually going to be a forensics lab that needed funding and the fundraiser who has to somehow raise money for something that a lot of people don't really want to think about, they don't really want to talk about. And that started the whole kind of thought process.

Let's talk about what makes this audiobook very special as a listening experience, because it really is. Ben's chapters are voiced by Simu Liu, Lauren's chapters are voiced by Philippa Soo, and then there are the— and this is one of my favorite character names in a book— Lady Petronella excerpts that open each chapter performed by Nicola Barber. So, you have three distinct voices weaving through the story. Was the dual narrator structure always part of the plan, or did it just somehow come to you as you were writing?

It was always part of the plan. I always knew I wanted Ben's point of view, and I wanted— So, Ben is the forensic anthropologist, and Lauren, and Lauren, who is the actress-turned-director. I knew I wanted both of those viewpoints feeding into the story so we could get close to each character as they are working through what's going on through the book.

Once you heard it, did they bring anything to the characters that surprised you?

Yeah. I mean, any narration always brings something that surprises me because— When I'm writing, you know, it's me in sweatpants on the couch mostly, to be honest. And so then when I hear it, it's in my head or it's my computer playing back, and it's always said a certain way, it's always said with a certain nuance. And then when you actually hear the performance, you realize that other people are taking your words, and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like, um, "The cat in the corner is black." In my head, it's, "The cat in the corner is black." Not the dog, not the gerbil. But someone else might say it, "The cat in the corner is black." So, the black cat, not on the end of the street or at the roof, in the corner. So, it's those small things that always jump out to me because I never realized in my head I had been hearing it a certain way. And then when they do the voices of the other characters, so not— the Ben character, the Lauren character, but the secondary characters, that's always fascinating to me. Like, how they just bring in all these different nuances and really make it fun and interesting and distinctive.

Ben's also an interesting romantic lead. He's brilliant, he's principled, he's protective of his bones, but he's also awkward in situations that require him to be vulnerable. And I loved this. The audiobook lets you sit in that awkwardness. How did you approach writing a love interest who can be genuinely difficult?

I think because Ben is— He can be difficult because we know he is just such a decent guy. He's trying so hard. And I think in that way, he reflects so many of us in those moments. And those awkward moments, when they're happening to you, they do last an eternity. Um, like, they just last forever, and they go on and on and on. And that secondhand embarrassment that you get when you're with Ben in those moments where he's catastrophizing or he's really just misread that situation to the point where you're like, "Oh, Ben, dude, come on." Um, it has elements of those situations we've all been in at some point in our life, where we have just waved when they're actually waving at the person behind us, and then, you know, our hand kind of comes down. Or we're having a conversation, and there's a moment where we're like, "Oh, we're—" We're not connecting. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think he was easy to write in that I have a lot of those moments personally, myself, on a daily basis. So, it was very easy to write. But it's, you know, he's a good guy, so we do feel for him.

I also have many awkward moments a day. You know who doesn't? I know him and think the world of him, but Simu does not strike me as the type of person who in real life has awkwardness. He's, like, very confident. He's very driven. You got the chance to sit in on on recording with him. What was that like?

It was fabulous. It was great. It was highlight of the writing process. I usually don't get to see behind the curtain. So, you know, once it's off, we do an audio draft, it goes off, and then I will get kind of questions back, but I don't actually get to see the process. And it was nothing like what I thought it would be. When my first book got recorded for the first time, I didn't even realize that the narrator would perform the book. I really didn't. I did think it would be more of a reading, like you're just reading the book out loud. And I didn't realize the depth of the performance that goes into making a really compelling audiobook. So then when I got to actually see it in action, I also didn't realize with Simu, like, the role of the producer and how much of a role the producer has in directing the feel of the story and some of the emotion and how— the producer's vision is layered onto, you know, the book, the narrator's interpretation to make this really great story for our listeners. So, being able to watch him record and watch him say like, "Hey, you know what?

I want to try it a different way," or, you know, "Maybe I'll give it another shot." It was fascinating to me. It gave me a lot of insight.

That's really cool because I think the jumping in and out of the real-life— exploration and the character stuff, I think of Lauren, right? She's fascinating also on her end. She's navigating Hollywood politics, fame, this director who's working against her. She's trying to be taken seriously as a filmmaker after years of being known for a teen melodrama. How much of Lauren's story is about the entertainment industry itself? Uh, you know, a lot.

A lot. But at the same time, Lauren's experiences are very common to people in almost every industry. I think we've all had the job where we've had a manager who has the vision that really goes against what we want. We've had the job where someone has not been looking in our best interest, or has been malicious, or has actively sabotaged us. So even though it's in the much more glamorous, you know, entertainment industry, her experiences, I think, are kind of common to anyone who's kind of worked in a company with other people. Her desire to do well, her need to express herself, that feeling of being thwarted when you know something's the right thing to do, I think we've all had that.

I'm glad you brought that up. On the most basic actor level, I always feel like I'm explaining to my non-actor friends, especially if they, like, ran into somebody they recognize on the subway or something, and they go, She was so mean. Oh, like, how, how was she mean? I said hi and she just smiled back. Like, that sounds like a perfectly nice, normal human interaction. I think you're expecting her to be the character that you saw from the movie who's going to give you a hug. Like, you got a smile. Also, if you didn't get a smile, that would have been fine because everybody's allowed to have a bad day in any profession. You just think that because this person is an actor, a musician, or whatever, that that person's bad day had to do with being rude to you specifically. So I like that you expanded on— I just think on the, on the meta level of that, every job, every profession, how human interactions always work. Um, I'm a big science nerd in real life. I'm not very good at science, I just, I, I'm fascinated by it. So the Taphonomic Research Lab is an unusual setting for a romance, um, but it also becomes central to the plot.

Ben is struggling with declining donations, a hostile neighbors trying to shut the lab down. He seems unable to explain why the research matters. Was there something you were trying to say about science communication?

Well, in a previous life, I actually also did communications for a university, so I have actually done science communications, or done my best to. And it can be very difficult to take science that's happening and make it something that people can understand how it impacts their day-to-day life, especially because these days there is so much coming at us at all times. You know, people are busy. They don't really have time to really do a deep dive to learn what that science, what that result is based on. So your job is to make sure you can get it as clear as possible so that person can hear it on the news or, you know, in a news story and be like, "Oh, I get it. I get how that's going to impact me." impact me or my family or the world. And Ben is not able to do that. He's not able to get the story part of the science out. He's got the facts. He loves the facts. The facts are his favorite things. The facts are the easy part. Yeah. But it's how you communicate that that makes it so hard. And what he has so much trouble doing, but he doesn't understand why.

He doesn't understand why the facts aren't good enough for everybody. Hmm.

Let's talk about the supporting characters, 'cause they're wonderful. Ophelia, Ben's colleague, a real scene stealer. Uh, Jay, Ben's best friend, has his own arc involving some legal struggles. Um, Emily, Lauren's best friend, is her anchor. And then there's, obviously, I've told you this, my favorite name in a character ever, Lady Petronella herself. Who exists as this fictional character threading through everything. Um, I'm curious which supporting character surprised you the most in the writing? Ofelia. Yeah? What do I know?

She wasn't even really in the book when I proposed it. I was like, "There will be a friend, a woman." That's it. So, she didn't start to develop until I started writing her, and I loved her. So, Dr. Ofelia Perez works with Ben. She is confident. She tries all sorts of stuff. She's funny. She's a straight talker. She's kind of the woman we all need in our life. And she's so good for Ben. And I love writing a male-female friendship based on respect, based on love for each other, but because you love that person as a friend and you want them to be great. So I really— I loved writing Ophelia.

Awesome. All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then we will be right back with more EarSay. Lily, it's time for a plot twist. We're gonna do a few rapid-fire questions. Okay, if you're ready. Um, okay, let me take a breath. Yeah, take a breath. Also, it's funny, I say they're rapid-fire, but my— as I've written them, my questions are not short. So feel free to, you know, it's whatever comes to mind. They're not yes or no questions. Got So Ben secretly writes cozy mystery novels under the pen name B.H. Denver and hides it from basically everyone in his life. Do you have a secret skill or hobby that would surprise the people who know you?

No, I have very few skills, um, actually. Uh, I think my hobbies are like— I just took up knitting. And when I get into something, I tell everybody under the sun. So there's no surprises. There's no secrets. It's just like, "Hey, I found something cool. I want to tell the world. Also, here's my terrible scarf." I wish I had a secret skill or something. I wish I was, like, really great at martial arts and— or something. But I'm— what you see is what you get, I'm afraid. How about you? How about you? How about you?

Okay, so skills-wise, no. And I think for the same reason that you've outlined, which is anything that I'm good at, I've just sort of made my profession. Profession, so people already know. I'm like, I like to act, I like to write comedy, things like that. So there's no— there's nothing else there that I'm good at. But the surprising thing, I think a lot of my friends thought I was joking when I told them that I was getting into NASCAR as a sport. Oh, and I really genuinely love it. Yes. Um, like, I've even had, like, NASCAR watch parties at, you know, at our apartment, and friends will come over just thinking like, oh, that's cute, I'll stop by for a beer. And they're like, oh, you're, you actually don't want to talk to me in the middle of the race. Like, you're, you're watching this thing. So that's the only surprising thing I'd say.

So I'm super into Formula 1, and I also watch Indy, and I'm getting into NASCAR. I come from more of a NASCAR family than an F1 family, but that is, I would totally come to your watch party and just sit quiet.

That's, you should come because, and I explain it to when, when I get the why question, I'm like, because NASCAR is like the NFL meets, uh, the Real Housewives of something. Like, the intrigue and drama and the drivers and teams who hate each other is really fun.

Yeah, like, there's so many personalities.

Totally. Love it. Yeah. Back to your— Sorry. Not so much rapid fire. Lauren's breakthrough character on her old TV show, Parker High, was named Sophie, and Sophie was a hot mess. If you could create a TV character who was a version of yourself with the volume turned all the way up, what would they be like?

Oh my gosh. Well, let's see. If they were at 11, I don't— you know, it's so hard to actually know yourself. Yeah, because it is actually—

that's a good point.

Yeah, there's the, the me I would love that to be and the me that they probably would be if I was being real. So it would be, you know, even me up to 11 would be sweatpants and couch and books. Um, I would probably speak to people even less than I do. So I would be a total hermit. So I think I'm describing the worst television character in existence. It'd be like, just like, "Watch this woman eat a sandwich." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. But I would like to think I would be out and exploring the world and traveling. It would be this, like, amazing travelogue-type person who's having adventures. But— I mean, both could be true. Both could be true. Both could be true. But one probably is. Yeah.

Ben becomes a meme. If you were to go viral for one facial expression frozen forever on the internet, what do you think it would be?

If it was the expression I make most, it would probably be that expression that's kind of like, what? Uh-huh. I can't describe my own face. So you describe this face I'm making.

A little furrowed brow, um, one eye sort of almost winking, um, skeptical, very skeptical, very skeptical looking.

Yeah, yes, yes. And it's not because I'm skeptical, it's usually because I'm staring at something and trying to understand it. But I think that would be it.

As I get older, I, I'm told that I have, um, I— not resting bitch face, but resting, um, it's a word that's a little more thoughtful and I'm blanking on it now, but like resting contemplation face. It's not flattering. It's somebody telling you that the way your face is is not flattering. I'm like, thank you. I appreciate that. Now I'm self-conscious about my thinking face.

I feel that's like, um, that's resting. I need my reading glasses face. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, okay. Ben leads with facts. Lauren leads with stories. In your own life, are you a facts-first person or a stories-first person? I'm a stories-first person.

When I'm doing something, I always think, "It would be funnier if it actually happened this way," or, "It'd be better if it happened this way." But I will say, I am with Ben on the importance of facts, but I just think stories are easier for me. Yeah. Are you facts or stories?

No, I am stories all the way. In fact, the problem with being an actor is you will generally— I wouldn't even say embellish. I think you just, when you retell a story, you tell it in a way that's really going to captivate your friends who are listening. And so, one of two things will happen. If there was a friend who was there for the actual story that you're recounting, they're like, "How did you do— That was really like— You made that a thing." And then other times, obviously, you do embellish, and they're like, "That— You know, I don't think she screamed in the way that you— She was a little upset, but nobody screamed." I was like, "No, no, this is my story. This is not facts. This is not Fact Hour. This is storytime." Okay, question.

On the times where you are embellishing a story, in your head, when you're remembering it again, are you remembering the embellished story that's better, or the real story? The embellished story.

Yeah, me too. But I think this— I should clarify, this is for things that are innocuous enough that they can be fun and embellished. If we're talking about something serious, like, you know, I'm not gonna cross a line into lying.

No, no, this is like you went to a mall and there was a juggler. Exactly. But, you know, in the story, it's a circus.

Yes, totally. Yeah, exactly. Uh, good. I'm glad you— I'm glad we— you understand what I'm saying.

Same level.

Yeah. Uh, Lady Petronella Armitage loves egg and anchovy sandwiches. Ben deeply regrets giving her this trait because he tried one in the name of researching his character and just found it disgusting. What's something interesting you've done while researching or otherwise preparing for writing one of your books?

Oh, um, well, I usually do a lot of research. So, for this one, I actually talked to a forensic anthropologist, and I talked to the woman who established two taphonomic research labs. So that was— Yeah, that was great. Um, but I will, you know, I'll go to places where stories take place. Um, I will interview a lot of people. Uh, I'm— I'm currently writing a book that involves Chinese calligraphy, so I'm teaching myself calligraphy. I'm terrible at it. You know, I do like to try the things that the characters are doing because I think it adds when you're writing, like, you know, can add in a few details on how it felt to do calligraphy or it felt to— trying to think of another one— go to a super fancy town for "Eat a Beaver Tail." Interesting.

It's cool to hear that. That type of research is one of my favorite parts of being an actor. So, you know, shadowing really obscure doctors. Like, I played a pediatric anesthesiologist, which I understand is not obscure-obscure, but nobody usually plays a pediatric anesthesiologist. So, finding one who was willing to talk to me and let me shadow him, he was thrilled 'cause he's like, "Nobody ever gets to do this." And I'm like, "How do you think I feel?" So there's that kind of stuff, but then there's also, like, being able to go and be in places or towns or weird things that you otherwise wouldn't get to do if it weren't for your art. Yeah.

And sometimes it doesn't even make it into the story. Like, sometimes it's— but you remember the feeling of when you were there or doing the thing, and you're able to kind of incorporate that in kind of an ineffable way. And people are so— generous about their time.

Like people— Yeah, that's been my experience too.

Yeah, which, you know, at first I was like, uh, so, you know, the email, my intro emails, a page long of apologies. I'm so sorry, I know you're busy, um, this is what I'm doing and this is why and this is my goal. But people, you know, I've had people call me immediately, be like, yeah, let's talk.

You know, the part that I'm so glad you mentioned process-wise is the stuff that maybe doesn't make it in. So whenever I've done on films or TV shows that are adaptations of books. And the most— the biggest example is probably this, this film I did called The Namesake, based on Jhumpa Lahiri's novel. And in the film, you don't see my character's college or grad school years. It jumps from high school to, uh, when he's a working architect. And so there were a couple weeks of research that I did up at Yale where he, in the novel at least, goes to school and spending time at architecture firms not dissimilar to where he would've started his job, and obviously learning about architecture and all of that. None of it is in the film, but it makes your performance so much stronger in the scenes that follow. And it's just part of the process that I think is very cool. Yeah.

Have you had a moment where you're about to start a role or start something, and you're like, "I don't— I don't know how they do this"? Like, you're just like, "How does this person do this day to day?" Like, have you had that? I've had—

so we generally, you, you will, if it's something that's necessary, it's just part of the process, either on the actor side where you'll do the research, or if it's something technical. Like, I was on a, you know, played a doctor tons of times, but the, um, let's say you're doing a medical procedure, right? There's usually an actual medical doctor who's part of the writing staff who would be on set to teach you. So So the, so the times actually where I've had that panic is when you ask 4 times, like, this sounds like a complicated medical procedure, can, can I come in a little early, or can I come in the day before and spend an hour with the doctor? And they're like, nah, don't worry about it, we got it, you'll, you'll get it when you get to work. And so you're getting to work just being like, cool, what surgery am I performing today and how long do I have to learn it? So yes, it's a little, it can be a little nerve-wracking. Okay, last question before we go. What are you listening to or reading right now, and what's next on your list?

Oh, um, I just listened to Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dineman. Loved it. Uh, luckily, I think there's like another 8 books or something in this series, so I'm covered on audio for a while. Uh, I read— I usually have like an audiobook, a physical book, and some podcasts. Um, I read Hooked by Asako Yuzuki, which was— she also wrote Butter. It was It was a very intense book. I had to put it down at one point and kind of, like, get myself ready and then go for again. And then on the romance side, I read Crash Test, which is by Amy James, and it is a male-male F1 romance, which was amazing.

That's awesome. Well, Lily Chu, this was so much fun. Thank you for being a member of our club.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, of course.

Of course. I love a romantic comedy that sneaks up on you. You go in expecting banter and butterflies, you come out thinking about how we communicate, how we let people in, and maybe a little bit about how our bodies break down. This was a really fun conversation with a very, very dynamic author. I enjoyed it. I hope you did too. On our next episode, I'll be diving into the dystopian action-genre-blending Seek the Traitor's Son from the author of the Divergent series, Veronica Roth. For our guest, it's the author herself, Veronica Roth. If you had a good time today, consider following the show wherever you listen and share it with someone who needs a good love story in their ears. And of course, thank you to our friends at Audible. Don't forget, you can listen to what we're listening to on the Audible app or at audible.com. New members can sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial, and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com/earsay. Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club, is a production of iHeart's Ruby Studio. I'm your host, Cal Penn. Our executive producer is Matt Schiltz, with theme music and post-production by Marcus Bagala.

Our talent coordinator is Allison Pepper. For Ruby Studio, our managing EP is Matt Romano, and our EP of post-production is Matt Stillo. Till next time, thanks for listening.

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