Transcript of Talking Dateline: The Prince, The Whiz Kid, & The Millionaire

Darren knows these roads. He knows every turn, every tree, every person's house. He knows when he wants to put his foot down. But here's something he doesn't know. He doesn't know that Jim is searching for his phone and has taken his eye off the road, just around the corner ahead. Darren doesn't know this, but they're both about to find out very quickly. Even if you know the road, you don't know what's coming. Say no to speeding. A message from the Road Safety Authority. Visit rsa. Ie. The Office of Public Works is currently seeking enthusiastic people to join our dedicated guiding team. We are currently recruiting for seasonal guide information officers on fixed term contracts. The closing date is October 16th, October This is our first round of recruitment. There will be further rounds in the coming months. Our guides represent the public face of the OPW, showcasing Ireland's most important heritage sites. Locations in this round of recruitment: Bruno Boyne, Casino Marino Marino, Custom House, Dublin Castle, Dunmore Cave, Ilna Cullen, Guaranish Island, Kilmainham Jail, National Botanic Gardens, Glasgow, Pirce Museum, St. Enda's Park, Phoenix Park Visitor Center, and Ashtown Castle, and Portam in a Castle and Gardens.

Visit heritageireland. Ie for more information.

Hi, everybody, and welcome to Talking Dateland. I'm Lester Holt. Today, our guest is Josh Mankowitz, who's going to talk all about The Prince, the Whizz-Kid, and the Millionaire. Yes, it's an intriguing title, and it's a more intriguing story. If you haven't seen it, you can go watch the full episode on Peacock or listen to it on the Dateland podcast feed, and then come right back here and you'll be Totally nourished on this story. All right, to recap, it was retired art collector and Palm Springs socialite Cliff Lambert. He suddenly vanished in 2008. Investigators uncovered an elaborate plot by a group of grifters to steal Lambert's money and his life. And then when Cliff's remains were found nine years after he disappeared, it was hardly the end of this twisted and shady saga, which we'll get into during this talking deadline. Josh, let's get right into it. This was not weekly weeks in the making. This wasn't months in the making, which is sometimes typical for Dataline. This was literally years in the making.

Yeah, this took about two and a half years. I think the first interview I did was Tyson Ranch, which was in Las Vegas. And then after that, we went to Palm Springs, and we did that wonderful interview with Barbara Wisby. The richness of the characters in this episode, I thought, really made a difference. And I also thought Palm Springs as a character in itself made a reference, and it gave you a sense of what life was like there, and also who Cliff was. Eddie was a sensational interview. We did him early. And then the case took forever, partly because of COVID, and partly because there were two trials, because the first verdict got thrown out. And then the two of the defendants, Danny and David Replogal, managed to delay sentencing for a long time. And so that made everything last long So it was a lot longer than most Dateland episodes.

Yeah. And one of the things I pulled away from this program is that Cliff, in the end, was a lonely character. He surrounded himself by a lot of people, his buddy Eddie. But at the heart of it, he strikes me as someone that was rather lonely.

One of the things that I thought is going to hit home with all Dateland viewers is that there were some very recognizable themes in this. Cliff was a lonely person who made some foolish romantic choices. Cliff lost a lot of his friends to AIDS in the '80s and '90s. So he was not just lonely, he also had lost a lot of people. And there's no way that that doesn't weigh on you. So I think Danny figured out that Cliff didn't have a family, and he didn't have a lot of close friends. And I think they thought, if we make this guy disappear, basically, No one's going to notice in the amount of time that we need to clean out his house, sell the artwork, and get all his money. And were it not for Eddie, they were just about right.

The way this came to light, at the end of the day, it came apart because a guy was moving some stuff, and a real estate agent just blew the whistle.

Yeah. The real estate agent got a listing for the house and couldn't figure out why the person selling it wanted such a small amount of money for what It was a house that was going to bring a lot more money, but they wanted to sell it in the next couple of days. The neighbors across the street, who I think were sitting out on their porch having an afternoon cocktail, realized they hadn't seen Cliff in a while, saw a U-haul across the street with somebody putting stuff into it. And they thought, That's weird. I had no idea Cliff was moving. They called the cops. And Eddie. Eddie, who was waiting for Cliff at the Festival of Lights, which is an annual thing, in Palm Springs. It's the event that Eddie and I were walking around during that you saw on the show. But it was Eddie who first thought, something's wrong.

Eddie came across as a true friend in this. There was no romantic link between these guys, but there was real great depth of affection.

Cliff and Eddie clearly were very good friends. And Eddie, he was like, no, no, something's wrong. If Cliff had left town, I'd know about it. And he went into the cops. But the fact that Bustamante was taking taking stuff out of the house, some of which he was putting in the U-Aul, and some of which was in his hotel room, which police found. Everything about that said that Cliff was being victimized in some way, and that's what made the cops think, there's a crime in progress here. And what they didn't know at first was whether this was some crime involving Cliff, who might either was being held against his will or maybe was dead, or whether Cliff was somehow complicit in this, because that was some of their thinking in the early days. Like, he's disappeared, and he's going to say I'm out of town, and he's going to say everything's been stolen, and then it's some insurance scam. But eventually, they figured out that the problem was something has happened to Cliff, and it was a long time before they figured out what.

Let's talk, if we can, for a second about the Nepal's prince or self-proclaimed prince in this. He appears midway in this and takes on a Cajal's role.

Yeah. I mean, look, he's the guy that you want to have if you're doing a grift. I mean, he can play a role. He sounds like he's from another country. He's got this very posh, erudite, I went to the best school's accent. He's also of an indeterminate ethnicity, which means he can be a British lawyer, he can be the Nepal's Prince. It's not exactly clear what Cajal's backstory is. And part So the problem here is that you can't really trust anything coming from anybody's lips here. But he certainly presented himself as this prince and did that very, very effectively. And if you're doing a con, you need somebody who can be a good actor. And he definitely was.

He got on the phone at one point regarding the artwork, and took me a second to realize, we've heard that voice.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, these guys were very sharp about some things, and they were incredibly stupid about other things. It didn't occur, though, if I pull a U-haul truck to this guy's house that we've just murdered. People are going to see it. They might call police. They did not realize that Cliff had a friend who was such a good friend that he would call police if Cliff didn't show up. One of the mistakes they made was leaving a voicemail message, which later would be essentially identified as being Kishal. I mean, that's the guy of the cops. That was like the light bulb moment for the cops. They're like, Wait a minute. I know who you are. You posed as that British lawyer, and You're part of this con. But Cachal is the guy who let the murderers into Cliff's house. So I mean, he's a fraud. He's a con man, but he's complicit in a brutal murder. He's a lot more than just a fast-talking guy with a good accent.

We also hear directly from someone who was in the room at the time of the killing who walked police, literally walked blow by blow through what ultimately happened.

I mean, the old saying, first squel gets That's the deal. That was Craig McCarthy. He pled to a lesser sentence. He testified against the other defendants, and he told police what had happened. Now, in his version of the story, he is a bystander. I don't know the police believe that he was just a bystander, but they needed to flip somebody to bring down this web of lies and murder. And he was the guy they did.

Yeah. So I'm watching the episode, and I'm watching my clock thinking, well, this thing's wrapping up early here. The case has gone to court. They've got a guilty verdict. End of story. No. I keep wondering, how do you know when you finish a story like this?

And we still might not be finished. I mean, nothing would surprise me about this story. To the point, I mean, this story was ran at the beginning of this season of Dateland. It was supposed to run last season sometime. And it couldn't because we didn't have the final disposition of the case. We want to be able to say in a story, this is how it ended.

Yeah. Lisa D. Maria, what a fascinating character there. She is obviously the prosecutor. She's no nonsense. She's going to take this case to its conclusion.

She's also about that tall.

Is she really? I couldn't get a sense of that.

Yeah, she's tiny. Yeah.

Yeah. But she was a go getter, and you're like, well, she's nailing these guys. And then Everything gets turned on her. I didn't see that coming.

I mean, look, if I had committed some terrible crime, Lisa Thiema Maria is about one of the last people I'd want coming after me because she was relentless, and she lived and breathed that thing for years and years and years. And then she got the conviction that she had worked so hard for. And then because of the judge's remark, the convictions were all stricken, all reversed. They had four new trials trials, and they did not let her do the retrial. There is no official reason why that was. I never got the full story out of her for that. But ultimately, I think justice was served by Rob Hightower, who prosecuted the case and got the convictions.

These defendants, though, if you ever can give a murderer credit, in this case, they really turned the prosecution back on its heels.

They definitely thought harder, longer, and more effectively than a lot of the defendants that we see on Dateland. And of course, one of these defendants was themselves a lawyer, and the others were practiced conmen who knew how to take advantage of every loophole in the law. Ultimately, the system went out and they were convicted.

Well, Josh, as you mentioned, we're going to get a little more insight into this. We're going to talk to David Ketterling, one of our colleagues, a producer on this program. He'll be talking talking about Stephen Valentino. This is a character you didn't meet in the actual broadcast, but he's got an interesting story to tell. We're going to have that when we come back on Talking Deadline.

There's a killer in our midst stalking us on rainy nights, striking on secluded rural roads, or in the middle of winter, down dark country lanes. This is a killer who terrorized the young and the nuts So young, it'll take your loved ones, and it's coming for you. In every season, speed is a serial killer. Stay safe by driving at a speed appropriate to the road and weather conditions. A message from the Road Safety Authority. Visit rsa. Ie.

The Office of Public Works is currently seeking enthusiastic people to join our dedicated guiding team. We are currently recruiting for seasonal guide, information officers on fixed term contracts. The closing date is 16th of October, This is our first round of recruitment. There will be further rounds in the coming months. Our guides represent the public face of the OPW, showcasing Ireland's most important heritage sites. Locations in this round of recruitment: Bruna Boyne, Casino Moreno, Custom House, Dublin Castle, Dunmore Cave, Ilna Cullen, Gareanish Island, Kilmainham Jail, National Botanic Gardens, Glasgow, Neven, pierce Museum, St. Enda's Park, Phoenix Park Visitor Center, and Ashtown Castle, and Portumna Castle & Gardens. Visitheritage. Ie for more information. Hi, everybody, and welcome to Talking Dateland. I'm Lester Holt. Today, our guest is Josh Mankowits, who's going talk all about the Prince, the Whizz-Kid, and the Millionaire. Yes, it's an intriguing title, and it's a more intriguing story. If you haven't seen it, you can go watch the full episode on Peacock or listen to it on the Dataline podcast feed, and then come right back here, and you'll be totally nourished on this story. All right, to recap, it was retired art collector and Palm Springs socialite Cliff Lambert.

He suddenly vanished in 2008. Investigators uncovered an elaborate plot by a group of grifters to steal Lambert's money and his life. And then when Cliff's remains were found nine years after he disappeared, it was hardly the end of this twisted and shady saga, which we'll get into during this talking dateland. Josh, let's get right into it. This was not weeks in the making. This wasn't months in the making, which is sometimes typical for dateland. This was literally years in the making. Yeah, this took about two and a half years. I think the first interview I did was Tyson Ranch, which was in Las Vegas. And then after After that, we went to Palm Springs, and we did that wonderful interview with Barbara Whisby. The richness of the characters in this episode, I thought, really made a difference. And I also thought Palm Springs as a character in itself made a difference. And it gave you a sense of what life was like there and also who Cliff was. Eddie was a sensational interview. We did him early. And then the case took forever, partly because of COVID and partly because there Two trials because the first verdict got thrown out.

And then the two of the defendants, Danny and David Replogal, managed to delay sentencing for a long time. And so that made everything last longer. So it was a lot longer than most Dateland episodes. Yeah. And one of the things I pulled away from this program is that Cliff, in the end, was a lonely character. He surrounded himself by a lot of people, his buddy Eddie. But at the heart of That he strikes me as someone that was rather lonely. One of the things that I thought is going to hit home with all Dateland viewers is that there were some very recognizable themes in this. Cliff was a lonely person who made some foolish romantic choices. Cliff lost a lot of his friends to AIDS in the '80s and '90s. So he was not just lonely, he also had lost a lot of people. And there's no way that that doesn't weigh on you. So So I think Danny figured out that Cliff didn't have a family, and he didn't have a lot of close friends. And I think they thought, if we make this guy disappear, basically, no one's going to notice in the amount of time that we need to clean out his house, sell the artwork, and get all his money.

And were it not for Eddie, they were just about right. The way this came to light, at the end of the day, it came apart because Because a guy was moving some stuff, and a real estate agent just blew the whistle. Yeah. The real estate agent got a listing for the house and couldn't figure out why the person selling it wanted such a small amount of money for what was a house that was going to bring a lot more money. But they wanted to sell it in the next couple of days. The neighbors across the street, who I think were sitting out on their porch having an afternoon cocktail, realized they hadn't seen Cliff in a while, saw a U-haul across the street with somebody putting stuff into it. And then it's like, that's weird. I had no idea Cliff was moving. They called the cops. And Eddie. Eddie, who was waiting for Cliff at the Festival of Lights, which is an annual thing in Palm Springs. It's the event that Eddie and I were walking around during that you saw on the show. But it was Eddie who first thought, something's wrong. Eddie came across as a true friend in this.

There was no romantic link between these guys, but There was real great depth of affection. Cliff and Eddie clearly were very good friends. And Eddie, he was like, No, no, something's wrong. If Cliff had left town, I'd know about it. And he went into the cops. But the fact that Bustamante was taking stuff out of the house, some of which he was putting in the U-A and some of which was in his hotel room, which police found, everything about that said that Cliff was being victimized in some way. And that's what made the cops think, there's a crime in progress here. And what they didn't know at first was whether this was some crime involving Cliff, who might either was being held against his will or maybe was dead, or whether Cliff was somehow complicit in this, because that was some of their thinking in the early days. Like, he's disappeared, and he's going to say, I'm out of town, and he's going to say everything's been stolen, and then it's some insurance scam. But eventually, they figured out that the problem was Something has happened to Cliff. And it was a long time before they figured out what.

Let's talk, if we can, for a second about the Nepal's Prince or self-proclaimed Prince in this. He appears midway in this and takes on a large role. Yeah. I mean, look, he's the guy that you want to have if you're doing a grift. I mean, he can play a role. He sounds like he's from another country. He's got this very posh, erudite, I went to the best school's accent. He's also of an indeterminate ethnicity, which means he can be a British lawyer, he can be the Nepal's Prince. It's not exactly clear what Cajal's backstory is. And part of the problem here is that you can't really trust anything coming from anybody's lips here. But he certainly presented himself as this Prince and did that very, very effectively. And if you're doing a con, you need somebody who can be a good actor. And he Definitely was. He got on the phone at one point regarding the artwork, and took me a second to realize, We've heard that voice. Yeah, that's right. I mean, these guys were very sharp about some things, and they were incredibly stupid about other things. It didn't occur, though. If I pull a U-haul truck up to this guy's house that we've just murdered, people are going to see it, they might call police.

They did not realize that Cliff had a friend who was such a good friend that he would call police if Cliff didn't show up. One of the mistakes they made was leaving a voicemail message, which later would be essentially identified as being Cachal. That's the guy of the cops. That was like the light bulb moment for the cops. They're like, Wait a minute. I know who you are. You posed as that British lawyer, and you're part of this con. But Cachal is the guy who let the murderers into Cliff's house. So I mean, he's a fraud. He's a con man, but he's complicit in a brutal murder. He's A lot more than just a fast-talking guy with a good accent. We also hear directly from someone who was in the room at the time of the killing who walked police, literally walked blow by blow through what ultimately happened. I mean, the old saying, first squel gets the deal. That was Craig McCarthy. He fled to a lesser sentence. He testified against the other defendants, and he told police what had happened. Now, in his version of the story, he is a bystander. I don't know the police believe that he was just a bystander, but they needed to flip somebody to bring down this web of lies and murder.

And he was the guy they did. Yeah. So I'm watching the episode and I'm watching my clock thinking, well, this thing's wrapping up early here. The case has gone to court. They've got a guilty verdict. End of story. No. I keep wondering, how do you know when you finish a story like this? And we still might not be finished. I I mean, nothing would surprise me about this story. To the point, this story was ran at the beginning of this season of Dateland. It was supposed to run last season sometime, and it couldn't because we didn't have the final disposition of the case. We want to be able to say in a story, this is how it ended. Yeah, Lisa D. Maria, what a fascinating character there. She is obviously the prosecutor. She's No nonsense. She's going to take this case to its conclusion. She's also about that tall. Is she really? I couldn't get a sense of that. Yeah, she's tiny. Yeah. Yeah. But she was a go getter, and you're like, well, she's nailing these guys, and then everything gets turned on her. I didn't see that coming. I mean, look, if I had committed some terrible crime, Lisa Thiemeria is about one of the last people I'd want coming after me because she was relentless.

And she lived and breathed that thing for years in years and years. And then she got the conviction that she had worked so hard for. And then because of the judge's remark, the convictions were all stricken, all reversed. They had four new trials, and they did not let her do the retrial. There is no official reason why that was. I never got the full story out of her for that. But ultimately, I think justice was served by Rob Hightower, who to rescue the case and got the convictions. These defendants, though, if you ever can give a murderer credit, in this case, they really turned the prosecution back on its heels. They definitely thought harder, longer, and more effectively than a lot of the defendants that we see on Dateland. And of course, one of these defendants was themselves a lawyer, and the others were practiced conmen who knew how to take advantage of every loophole in the law. Ultimately, the system went out and they were convicted. Well, Josh, as you mentioned, we're going to get a little more insight into this. We're going to talk to David Ketterling, one of our colleagues, a producer on this program.

He'll be talking about Stephen Valentino. This is a character you didn't meet in the actual broadcast, but he's got an interesting story to tell. We're going to have that when we come back on Talking Deadline. There's a killer in our midst stalking us on rainy nights, striking on secluded rural roads, or in the middle of winter, down dark country lanes. This is a killer who terrorized the young and the not-so-young. It'll take your loved ones, and it's coming for you. In every season, speed is a serial killer. Stay safe by driving at a speed appropriate to the road and weather conditions. A message from the Road Safety Authority. Visit rsa. Ie. The Office of Public Works is currently seeking enthusiastic people to join our dedicated guiding team. We are currently recruiting for seasonal guide information officers on fixed term contracts. The closing date is 16th of October, 2025. This is our first round of recruitment. There will be further rounds in the coming months. Our guides represent the public face of the OPW, showcasing Ireland's most important heritage sites. Locations in this round of recruitment: Brew, N'Abuyne, Casino, Merino Merino, Custom House, Dublin Castle, Dunmore Cave, Ilna Cullen, Gahranish Island, Kilmainham Jail, National Botanic Gardens, Glasgow, Pirce Museum, St.

Enda's Park, Phoenix Park Visitor Center and Ashtown Castle, and Portamna Castle and Gardens. Visit heritageireland. Ie for more information.

At Novybeth, our odds are fit for the gods. My Jupiter's Hope. And with Novybeth's Super Odds, we're giving you the best odds available on all Premier League matches. That's any match, any result with bigger odds. Plus no max steak. Mighty stuff altogether. And when you sign up as a new customer, you can get up to €70 in free bets. The Little Legend. Novybeth, more power to you. T's and C's apply. 18 plus. Bet responsibly. Gamblingcare. Ie.

All right, welcome back to Talking Dateland. We're back here with Josh as well as David Ketterling. He's a producer at Dateland, NBC, and was one of the producers on this program. There was so much in this two-hour broadcast that some stuff did get left on the proverbial cutting room floor, including an interview with a guy named Stephen Valentino. He crossed paths with Prince Khashul Nrula and has a story to tell about his mother's missing jewelry. Josh, why don't you give me a set up on this?

Well, I mean, look, Stephen Valentino is one of the guys that we came across while we were reporting this story. But the interesting thing about Mr. Valentino is he didn't really have anything do with the Cliff Lambert plot. He can give you some background on what it was like to know Cachal Nrula. And ultimately, we decided that, first of all, with the amount of material we had and the size of this story, there's some stuff that didn't make the final cut. So that's why you're going to hear this now and not on the TV program.

Okay, David, you want to set up the exact bite for us?

Yeah. So Kishal Narula lived with Stephen Valentino for a while, and Steven saw him one day going in and out of his mother's bedroom and came home later to realize that all of his mother's jewelry had been stolen.

Which was worth a lot of money.

Yeah, he was a jewelry collector, and he came home. The person who he thought it was his friend ended up stealing a bunch of his mom's jewelry.

I went into my mother's bedroom, and the first thing I noticed was her chest of drawers. The top drawer was actually a jar. It was open. And I walked over to it and I pulled it out, and it was virtually empty. No millions worth of jewelry missing. What immediately went through my mind, other than wanting to choke him to death, was, Where is Cachal right now? Because he was the only one that was in that room. So I called the Morin County Sheriff's Department. They came out, they fingerprinted, and basically, they started searching for Cachal.

Well, it sounds like there are other stories to tell Dave. Nonetheless, the crickets have their own story to tell.

I love that. I love the crickets.

The crickets were definitely a thing in that. But more importantly, it gets me back to this. And the thing that I was curious about this whole program was there have to be more stories that this isn't necessarily a one-off.

We talked about Eddie and we talked about the neighbors. We didn't talk about Tyson. Tyson got fleeced by Danny very early on, long before these guys, I think, had ever heard of Cliff Lambert. And he thought, No, you're not doing this. Not with me, you're not. I I'm going to find out what happened. Because the bank said to Tyson, and the cops said to Tyson, We're not going to really do anything until someone gets hurt. It's just one guy stealing somebody else's money, and you got your money back from the bank. So we're not going to knock ourselves out. Well, let's say that San Francisco PD had gone after Danny and that he had been locked up. I don't know what would have happened, but Cliff Lambert might still be alive. And part of what happened here was that conning somebody is not perceived as serious a crime as conning somebody and then killing them. And unfortunately, none of the brakes were put on until Cliff Lambert was already gone. I got to say one more thing about this, which is Dave, who's joining us today, one of the two producers, is not just responsible for following this thing, because he's not just a producer, but he's also a video editor.

And and photographer. And so normally we say, you can listen to this episode. It's right on the podcast feed, right? But I would urge you to go to Peacock and watch this episode because part of what made this such a great episode are those pictures. And part of why that all works is because of Dave, who was largely responsible for the look of this and of making Palm Springs a character. And it Looking at this episode, in addition to just listening to it, is worth your time. And that's because of Dave.

Well, Dave. Thank you, Josh.

All right.

Palm Springs is such a beautiful place. I mean, sometimes you can just point the camera and you get gold. But I really appreciate that, Josh. It was a long journey.

Really was.

So at the end, the big surprise was Cliff and this multimillion dollar art collection was not what it seemed.

Look, this is a story in which nothing was what it seemed. Cliff Lambert, rest his soul, rags himself into an early grave. He told everybody how much money he had. He told everybody how valuable his art was, and it was all BS. Cliff would... And again, how stupid were these killers? This guy had run an art reproduction business. This guy sold that phony art. You think none of it was on it? You think he sells that, but he got the real thing on his walls? I mean, that wasn't a giant leap of logic, but these criminals, these murderers could not figure that out.

So I can't let you guys get out of here with talking about Barba Wisby, who was a terrific character, gave a lot of insight into the lifestyle in Palm Springs. How did you come across her?

We found her through Karen Devine at KESQ in Palm Springs. She's the anchor out there. And she's like, Have you talked to Cliff's friend, Barbara, yet? And I'm like, No. And she's like, Well, she's a talker. And I was like, Great. When I did this thing, I did producer booking interviews. And so we had a chat and I sat her down and I said, Barbara, Palm Springs, what do you love about it? And she's like, it's such a diverse place. Come one, come all, come short, come tall, come fat, come slim, you can all get in.

And I was like... And you're like, that's getting on television. That's gone.

Yeah. So I'm like, wow. And the Barbara-isms just kept coming.

Barbara is one of those people that, and I'm sure all the other correspondence on Dateland would agree with me about this, which is after you interview them, you think like, were you a witness to any other crimes? Because I'll put you in any story that you want to talk about.

Whose idea was it to put Mankowitz in the driver's seat of a car? And by the way, it's not the first time this season we've seen you, Josh, at the Yes.

Well, okay. I was not at the wheel. I was in the back of the car where I can do a lot less damage with Barbara, who was smoking innumerable cigarettes. We had the top down. I love how Barbara says to me, Do you mind if I smoke? I'm thinking like, as if there's any way I could stop you, right? I'm like, Yeah, go ahead. First of all, we should do more stories like that, in which we're driving around with the person. A lot of times we do the story, we do interviews in cars, but one of us is driving. The person that's being interviewed, which frequently is a law enforcement representative, or I'm driving. And I'm looking at the camera. I've done that a few times. The cameras in the passenger seat. This was great because this chauffeered interview with me and Barbara in the back seat and her with her cigarette talking about how La Rue Cliffs Parties were, which is a word I I had never heard before and I've never heard since. Is it a word? We don't know. I mean, it's a Barbara word. It's a Barbaraism. I'm willing to accept that it's a word.

I don't know if Websters would agree with me, but hey, why not?

We'll take a break here when we come back, we're going to listen in on social media, say what folks are asking or curious about in this program.

There's a killer in our midst stalking us on rainy nights, striking on secluded rural roads, or in the middle of winter, down dark country lanes. This is a killer who terrorized the young and the not-so-young. It'll take your loved ones, and it's coming for you. In every season, speed is a serial killer. Stay safe by driving at a speed appropriate to the road and weather conditions. A message from the Road Safety Authority. Visit rsa. Ie.

The Office of Public Works is currently seeking enthusiastic people to join our dedicated guiding team. We are We're currently recruiting for seasonal guide, information officers on fixed term contracts. The closing date is 16th of October, 2025. This is our first round of recruitment. There will be further rounds in the coming months. Our guides represent the public face of the OPW, showcasing Ireland's most important heritage sites. Locations in this round of recruitment: Brewna Boyne, Casino Moreno, Custom House, Dublin Castle, Dunmore Cave, Ilna Cullen, Guaranish Island, Kilmainham Jail, National Botanic Gardens, Glacneven, Pirce Museum, St. Enda's Park, Phoenix Park Visitor Center and Ashtown Castle, and Portumna Castle and Gardens. Visit heritageireland. Ie for more information.

At Novybeth, our odds are fit for the gods. My Jupiter's Hope. And with Novybeth's Super Odds, we're giving you the best odds available on all Premier League matches. That's any match, any result with bigger odds. Plus no max steak. Mighty stuff altogether. And when you sign up as a new customer, you can get up to €70 in free bets. My little legend. Noviebet, more power to you. T's and C's apply. 18 plus. Bet responsibly. Gamblingcare. Ie.

All right, welcome back, Josh and Dave Ketterling. We've got several questions about the crime scene that we want to bring to you. Let's take a listen.

Hi, this is Amy in Massachusetts. I'm calling to ask how the crime investigators missed the blood that would have been in the kitchen or the car trunk.

And were they not using Luminal?

Because I've learned about luminal on Dateline, and it seems to work in most cases.

Thank you for another great episode.

I thought it wasn't possible to clean a crime scene so effectively that modern forensic techniques, and it's not just Luminal, who, by the way, should be paying us some royalty. It's not just Luminal. There's a couple of other products like that. But I would have thought that modern forensic techniques would bring out blood. I mean, the whole point of that is it finds blood and bodily fluids even after you try to clean them up, even after you make a really good effort to clean them up. But they didn't. A certain amount of time had gone by. That might have helped. I'm sure they breached it. And by then, the bleach had probably... The bleach smell had disappeared because it wasn't like they were there the day after Cliff died. Maybe they shouldn't have been grifters. Maybe they should have been house cleaners because they might have been better at that.

Okay, here's one. We had a lot of viewers weighing it about Danny's sociopath cousin, Dennis.

Hi, this is Katherine from South Carolina. What was the experience like interviewing someone who actually identified as a sociopath?

Thanks so much.

Yeah. Hi, Katherine. Look, I'm not sure I have ever interviewed anyone who self-identified as a sociopath. That was a little surprising. I also need to tell Dennis Murphy that Dennis backwards is sinned. I don't think he's aware of that. Dennis, Danny's cousin, was a very interesting guy and a very important guy for our story because he tells us all kinds of things that happened behind the scenes. At this point, has not faced any charges.

Yeah, he just kept himself out of it.

And here's Myla on Facebook. She says this about Dennis, The self-proclaimed sociopath appeared most likable out of all these criminals. That doesn't say a lot, guys.

That's not the best commercial for you when somebody who says, I'm a sociopath. But yes, I agree. He was by far the most rational of all of those people.

And then our viewer, Myla, goes on to say about the motive. I understand money was the motive, but how? I still don't get why those losers had to kill him since they knew very well how to con people without violence. Sickening, but it's just very confusing. I think actually, it's a very fair point. I did find myself wondering about that, that you guys know how to con. Why kill?

Well, I mean, look, I think originally, and Dave, check me on this, but I think originally, the plan was to con Cliff out of money. The plan was... What part of Danny's backstory, don't know how much of this or any of it is true, is that he was abused as a younger man and that he wanted to create an app that would allow people to track sexual predators or people who are registered sex offenders in real-time so you'd know if you were near them. Danny originally approached Cliff with, was, I want you to participate in this business venture with me. And when Cliff didn't bite on that, and in fact, threw Danny out of his house for going through his computer and going through his office, that's, I think, when Danny also got the idea, wait a minute. If we disappear this guy, no one will notice. And so this escalated, this original plot escalated a separating Cliff from his money to killing him, selling his house, his possessions, and his artwork.

I would say also it was like, they were all trying to one up each other on who's the better con, including Dennis. And then when Cachal got out of jail or out for the jewelry heist, I'm thinking maybe he was a little bit desperate or something, and it escalated at that point. I mean, Danny's whole thing was, he was financial crimes up until Cliff Lambert came into the picture.

And Danny, and there is no allegation or evidence that Danny was present when Cliff was killed. I mean, it is a little bit like he was the director of this plan because he sent all those texts. But Danny definitely wasn't there at the time that Cliff was killed.

Before we get out of here, we have a video question from one of our Dateline ambassadors, Chuck Deesey 76. Let's give this a watch. Hi, Dateline.

Hi, Josh Mankowitz. It's Charles, AKA Chuck Deesey 76. My question is for Josh. There were a lot of amazing fashions in last week's episode.

I just want to know, was your tie blood stained?

I think you're sitting in an interview. It's dark blue at the top, and then it starts to get red, and the tie actually matches your jacket. Please let me know. Thanks in advance. Bye.

Hi, Chuck Deesey. No, I do not have a blood stained tie, although it did look like that. No, it's just a blue and red striped tie. But great to see Chuck Deese, who is a friend of our broadcast and literally one of our most loyal viewers, Chuck. You rock.

You did bring the outfits in this show, though, Josh. You always look dapper, but you did look great in this show.

I was trying to look very LaRouh.

All right, well, guys, that's going to do it. Talking Dataline. Remember, if you have If you have any questions about our program, about the stories we're covering, you can catch us 24/7 on social media at Dateland, N. B. C. If you have a question for Talking Dateland, leave it for us in a voicemail. The number is 212-413-5252. Or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode. We'll see you Friday on Dateland, N. B. C. Thanks for listening, everyone. So long.

At Novybets, our odds are fit for the gods. My Jupiter's Hope. And with Novybet's Super Odds, we're giving you the best odds available on all Premier League matches. That's any match, any result with bigger odds. Plus, no max steak. Mighty stuff altogether. And when you sign up as a new customer, you can get up to €70 in free bets. My little legend. Novy Bet, more power to you. T's and C's apply. 18 plus. Bet responsibly. Gamblingcare. Ie.