Transcript of Talking Dateline: The Butterfly

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I'm Josh Mankowitz, and we're talking Dateland today with Andrea Canning. Hi, Josh. So this episode is called The Butterfly. This is the season premiere episode, isn't it?

Yes, it is.

Now, if you've not seen The Butterfly, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateland podcast feed. Go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. For this Talking Date Line, Andrea has brought a clip from her interview with Investigator Paul Newton about breaking into that glass-blowing class to arrest the suspect.

My favorite extra clip of all the Talking Date Lines we've ever done. How's that for a tease?

That's a pretty high bar. Just briefly to recap, Kaitlyn Markham disappeared in August 2011 from her home in Fairfield, Ohio. Her friends and family knew right away that something was wrong. It would take years, which is something we'll talk about, to finally put together a theory as to exactly what happened and to figure out who killed her, which was her fiancé, John Carter. So let's talk Dateland.

Let's do it.

The thing that leaped out at me about this episode is that like other good Dateland episodes, this showcases both some very good police work and some not very good police work.

I mean, I think most people would agree with you. The one thing that I couldn't believe, just based on all the datelines we've done, was the computer. He says he's watching the show and the investigators feel like the computer backs that up. Well, obviously, if you're savvy with technology, with computers, you can set up your computer in a way that shows that you're watching something.

They could tell that a show was playing on his computer. But of course, they can't tell whether somebody's actually really watching it.

We should say that we asked the Fairfield Police Department to do an interview. They declined, but they did tell us they always considered Carter a suspect but just didn't have enough evidence. They say they weren't the only ones. Other investigators came to the same conclusion, they said.

Also, how did they not talk to the dad until the second go-around? When the dad says, Yeah, I wish you'd ask me these questions years ago, they hadn't interviewed him?

They didn't really... They talked to him, but I just don't know how in-depth they talked to him. But then it was the Indiana State Police. They said, The dad has to be looked at as well. Of course, Dave had nothing to do with it.

No, I actually thought you had a great rapport with him, by the way, in this. I came away like, really, I thought he seemed like a great guy, and you guys seemed to really connect.

You know what? He's just Dave as the salt of the Earth. Ohio guy, just working hard, raising his kids, doing the best he can. He's just a good person because, as he said in the show, they were struggling to have children. She was so special to them. He had such a bond with her, and this just crushed him.

Finding Caitlin's remains. There had to be a time when that family thought they were never going to have anything or anyone to bear.

Yeah, you certainly start to lose hope, It took, as it often does, just a stranger in the woods, and there he finds the body.

But it's the middle of nowhere where they found her. Also weird is how one of her friends goes out there. Right. More of a remains. It remains. It remains. It turns out like they didn't recover all of her.

Then Dave's on his hands and knees with a strainer from a kitchen. I mean, what the heck?

You said that in the interview. I don't know how this is supposed to go, but it's definitely not supposed to be the dad. When you think about people, when you think about police or law enforcement agencies doing recovery at a crime scene, we've all seen, we've all seen too many movies and too many TV shows. You have this image in your mind of all these people sifting through the dirt at the crime scene. But in fact, a lot of agencies, particularly smaller ones, they've got a couple, and people are doing the best they can. Maybe some of those people are volunteers from the local criminology Department at the nearest college. We all know DNA results don't come back in one minute on a machine on your desk. That's TV fiction. But you don't think about this as being TV fiction, too, which is like every crime scene is not processed as thoroughly in real life as it is on television. Somebody else, too, in the episode, you talk about this mysterious benefactor who helped pay for a private investigator to look into the case. I can't think of another case in which somebody who was a third party paid for a private eye, and it really did make a difference.

Do you know who that was?

I don't know. We may have known the name like that someone may have told us. I don't know what they want to remain private. We just know that they're wealthy, and they read about it on Facebook and wanted to help.

Hey, look, I mean, that's a great thing for people to do philanthropically, to hire a private eye with that 10-gallon hat, which was sensation.

J. Ryan Green.

I'm guessing, right? You tell me if I'm right. I'm guessing that there was a point in which Ryan Green was sitting down for the interview and he said to you and the producer, You guys want me to take my hat off? And you were like, No, no, no, leave it on.

That's good. We like the color. Yeah, no. I always encourage to keep the 10-gallon hat on or whatever that person is comfortable with.

Well, because you have this guy who's coming to the rescue who's literally wearing a white hat. I mean, how great is that?

Yeah. He was a good guy, too. He really got invested and put his best foot forward and did make some progress.

I think did definitely make some progress.

Josh, I have an idea. How about when we retire from this job, you and I open a private investigator agency, and it can be banquets and canning, PIs. What do you think?

You don't want top billing?

No. It's It's a good idea. It doesn't matter. Canning and banquets, banquets and canning. With all the things that we've learned on Dateland, I feel like we could be good private investigators if we put our minds together. What do you think?

I'm for it. Maybe we could borrow something like that hidden camera gear and stuff that we use. Because that might come in handy. Yeah, it's a post-Dateland career. I like that. I think that's good. When we come back, Andrea has a clip that did not make our story. An interview with the investigator who ended up cracking this case about the very unusual arrest of a suspect.

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For true crime fans, nothing is more chilling than watching Dateland. Have you ever seen such a thing before? For podcast fans, nothing is more chilling than listening.

What goes through your mind when you make a discovery like that?

And when you subscribe to Dateland Premium, it gets even better. Excuse me, I sound a little skeptical. Every episode is ad free.

Oh, wow. So this could be your ace in the hole. And not just ad-free, you also get early access to new intriguing mysteries and exclusive bonus content.

So what were you afraid of? Dateline Premium. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium. Com. You ready for what's coming? Opposites attract. It certainly seemed to be the case for me. I noticed this right off between Kaitlyn and John. She is creative and going places, and he's a lump. Any idea what she ever saw in him?

I think what happened was it's a high school love, and you don't think in high school as much about what are those person's hopes and dreams and what job do they have and how much money are they making. In high school, it's just you like someone because you like him, and then they just happen to stay together. Then I think the older they got and the more serious they got, I think then it started to hit home to her that, Hey, this guy's not a go getter, where in high school, it just doesn't matter as much.

I think that's right. The two sides to John Carter, he seems to be this like a bean bag chair.

Yeah, here and over.

But it turns out he's got this edge to him. Yeah. That video of him yelling at the next girlfriend, that really told you a lot. That's where you saw it. Even though it wasn't...

Yeah, totally. Yeah, because I don't think a lot of people were really aware of that. Then you get to see it for yourself, the person he's capable of becoming.

Who is the opposite of the guy in the interview room who seems like this friendly guy. Like, Come on, I want my own life back. I would say when you compare him to the pantheon of terrible actors that we've seen in those interrogation rooms lying about what they did or didn't do. He's actually pretty near the top because he's the killer, and also he did a pretty good job of seeming as if he was just this hapless guy.

Well, to a point, it depended, I guess, on how well you knew him. The detectives, they don't know this guy. They don't know what his baseline is. They just, I guess, assumed he seemed like not the guy. Yeah, we don't know.

Let's talk about the voice stress analysis. I remember when this came along. Is it any more admissible in court than a polygraph?

I don't think so. I've never heard of it. I'm sure it falls in the polygraph bucket. I don't think.

Yeah, because I've never heard of it being used in a case before. Polygraphs are generally not admissible in courts. They're usually not admissible as evidence in a criminal trial. Sometimes polygraphs are admissible during appellate issues, but usually not as an investigative tool when people are actually going to be charged or not charged. Generally, law enforcement tends to use polygraphs as a test of somebody's willingness to cooperate. If they will take a polygraph, that generally tells you something.

Or when they fail, too. I mean, it's a bad sign.

That's a lever to use in interrogations. Hey, by the way, we know you're lying now, so why don't you tell us the real story?

Yeah, exactly. My husband's best friend from growing up, who was in our wedding, he does polygraphs for the FBI, and he goes all over the place to administer them.

How many times have you had him polygraph your husband?

Hey, no, you're putting ideas. Don't say zero. You're putting ideas in my head. Yeah.

Well, this is stuff that we're going to have to deal with when we're operating that PI agency.

We'll get Jim in to help us with my husband's friend. Absolutely.

Eventually, Paul Newton gets on the case, and then one senses that everything changes. The minute you meet Paul Newton in this story, it's obvious that that's the guy you want on the case of somebody that you care about.

You want the guy who says, I like a challenge, and that's what he got. Paul Newton, he was on it, chasing down everything, rereading everything, going over all the evidence again, talking to people. I mean, he did what was needed to be done, and the DA let him run with it and said, Let's go. So we have an extra clip as teased, as promised. This is about When the arrest happens, we only played a really small snippet in the show.

I have a sergeant with me, so I walk in the front door.

Do you get to do the honors? Yes.

It was nice. So we walk in a younger girl working to the front desk. I said, Where's John Carter? She goes, He's in the back teaching a class. I said, Take me to him now. The owner goes, Hey, what's going on here? I said, Take me to John now. She walks me to the back, and she goes, He's actually teaching a class. I said, I'll be gentle.

Oh, my goodness. Can you imagine being in that glass-blowing class?

Well, there was a bunch of elderly old women in there.

What's the look on the elderly lady's faces?

They have No idea what's going on. I put the couch on and I said, You're under arrest. As I'm walking out, the young girl goes, Why is he being arrested? I said, He's being arrested for murder. She yelled, No.

No, as in, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe this is happening? Yes.

It's something you would see on police TV.

Yeah. Did you happen to catch a look at the elderly lady's faces?

I told him I was sorry. I did tell him I was sorry before I walked out. I said, I'm sorry, and now it's time to go work. Justice was denied for a long time to that family. But on the plus side, John Carter, he was eventually locked up.

Yeah. Well, it's justice, though, with like an asterisk, right? Because he ultimately pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and got three years. I mean, that's it. Right. The DA definitely took some heat from some people who thought you should have tried and gone to trial. He felt like getting him to admit what he admitted was justice in this case.

Well, that is a very familiar refrain from people, is that why couldn't the DA just go into court and try for a higher charge and see what... In other words, we're saying we'd feel better if at least he were charged with murder, even if he weren't convicted of murder. Well, two things. One, if he beats a murder charge, then they walk out of court and they go ahead living their life and they don't suffer any consequences at all. And Second, prosecutors have an ethical requirement to not do that thing that people would like, which is like, let's just throw the spaghetti at the refrigerator and see if it sticks. I mean, you're not supposed to bring a case unless you have a very strong, more than 50% belief that you're going to get a conviction. Right.

Let's not forget, if it wasn't for the prosecutor's office, John Carter would not have been charged. But yeah, so there was no doubt that there were things, obstacles that the prosecution would have had to face. They didn't want to roll the dice. They wanted to get him on the record saying, I did this. And that's what they did. You know what? Dave, who, as we mentioned, is now engaged, and Ali is teaching. As imperfect as the ending was from a justice standpoint, they seemed relieved.

Yeah, that was going to be my question. It feels like they're okay with this, even though he's not going away for the rest of his life.

I think they just wanted him to have some accountability, and they got that accountability. They got him in prison, but it's something, right?

Well, the family is fighting for something they call Caitlin's law, which would extend the statute of limitations on missing persons' cases because the idea that why should somebody who succeeded in hiding the body and thus escaping the statute of limitations benefit from that, which is an interesting argument.

Yeah. We see the law always changing. Through these datelines because family members see loopholes or things that don't make sense, and they start petitioning. They start fighting. They start getting lawmakers on board. And next thing in that state, there's a law named after their loved one because they fought for it, and it'll help future families down the road. I just wish the best for them. I hope now, even though they don't have Kaitlyn back, they planted the tree, they see the butterflies. I hope that they can have some peace now going forward and that they can take a breath, that all this part of it is over.

Andrea, thank you. After the break, Andrea is going to be joined by Dateland producer Justin Smith, who worked on this story to answer your social media questions about the butterfly.

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Hi, I'm Kristen Walker, moderator of Meet the Press, and I want to tell you about a very special conversation I had for our Meet the Moment segment with longtime Dateland, NBC producer Dan Slepian, author of The Sing-Sing Files. This new book follows Dan's two-decade journey, navigating the criminal justice system and his fight to help free six wrongly convicted men, including JJ Velasquez, who will also join our conversation. You can listen to the full interview right now. Just search, meet the press wherever you get your podcasts. They were sweet little old ladies, Helen and Olga. Their mission to get homeless men off the street. And then one day, tragedy. Why are we telling you this? Well, we've covered many plots over the years, but nothing quite like this. I'm Keith Morison. Think you've heard every Dateland story? Think again. Listen to The Thing About Helen and Olga and a dozen other riveting series when you follow the Dateland Originals podcast.

Welcome back, everyone. As we are taping this, Josh is working on another story for the new season. To help me answer some of your questions about the episode from social media, I have invited star producer Justin Smith. He is, of course, the producer of The Butterfly. Hey, Justin. Thank you for being here.

Hey, Andrew. How are you?

Good. Okay, so it appears the most asked question by our viewers was about John Carter's three-year sentence. Jersey Girl, 96, wrote this on X, Three years for killing someone makes no sense. Kayla at Kay Keaney said that Kaitlyn deserved more. Three years is not enough time for lying to the Markums for 13 years. And Allie, Jay, star girl with a cat, said, Is he out now? I think I heard the trial was in 2021. I think the viewer's response really mirrored the response of the community there in Fairfield.

Kaitlyn's case had been going on so long and had traumatized the community. So when this plea deal popped up three weeks before the trial was to begin, I mean, a lot of people were stunned, surprised, and disappointed.

And to answer Ali's question, John Carter is not out. He is currently in prison. This all just happened this year.

The trial was actually supposed to go ahead this summer in June, July. It was scheduled for four weeks. The prosecution team had 80 plus witnesses subpoenaed. I mean, everyone was full speed ahead for trial.

Yeah, and it was so interesting how the assistant prosecutor gets this random tap on the shoulder. Hey, what do you think about this the idea of this plea deal? So it was interesting how it came from John Carter's side.

Yeah, the prosecutor made it clear that they were fully prepared for trial, but the case was really circumstantial. I mean, they had no forensic evidence or DNA evidence tying John Carter directly to the crime. They didn't have a cause of death, so they couldn't really tell a jury how Kaitlyn had died or where she died or even how her body had gotten to Indiana. If you remember, you asked him that question of how he felt about his case going to trial, and he brought up Forrest Gump, and he said that juries are like a box of chocolates that you never know what you're going to get. I think he felt like with the right jury, he could hit it out of the park. But with a jury that was maybe more skeptical of circumstantial evidence, it could have been an uphill climb.

We talked about this earlier, but viewers were shocked that Caitlin's dad had to help search for his daughter's remains and that they weren't fully recovered after the first search. Mickey Martini said They're still finding bones?

Yeah, that was certainly surprising. But I think when we were out there talking to those state police officers, I got a little bit more of a sense of why that had happened or how it could have happened. I mean, her body was left on this advancement leading down to a creek, and several winters had gone by. It was barely covered. I think with the snow coming and thawing, that her remains had really been spread over quite a large area. So that helped me understand it a little bit.

There were lots of comments about Caitlin's dad Dave Markham, this comment from murder mystery box. I know they need to eliminate the dad as a suspect, but it must be devastating to have to go through questioning like that.

Yeah. I mean, something we don't often see in the cases we cover that this grieving out for justice dad is suddenly hauled in two years into the investigation and aggressively questioned. I mean, it's certainly based on his reaction in the room, you could see that he was surprised. But I think that it came at a unique moment in the investigation where it had been two years. He was super frustrated with the original investigators and felt like, okay, he was so glad that these state police officers were now taking a hard look at the case that I think it made it a little more tolerable for him because he thought, well, if I'm being questioned this aggressively, hopefully others are as well.

Yeah. Brenda Alessi, she commented on Dave's determination saying, Daug a determination by Dave, my heart breaks for this devoted father. Yeah.

I mean, that's one of the things I noticed following the case for so many years, is that Dave is someone who said he was never comfortable getting out there, talking to the media, answering questions about his daughter's disappearance. And yet he did it, birthday after birthday, year after year, really because he felt he owed it to his daughter to get justice for her. It was quite inspiring.

Yeah. And as I teased way earlier in the podcast that my favorite bonus clip ever was talking about the glass-blowing class. Danny Scotch-Irish also picked up on that. She said, The old ladies at the glass-blowing class got a lesson in murder. I bet they're still talking about this.

Yeah. I mean, the whole story he told was wild. How they asked him as he was taking John Carter out, What's the arrest for? He said, murder. There was quite a gasp.

Yeah. It's like, Wait, our glass-blowing instructor? Pretty crazy. A lot of people were just excited on social media for season 33 to start. Cathy Seal-Bernat said, New season in all in caps. Yes. Nancy, Krushinsky, Andrews. Can't wait for Dateland to do it again next Friday.

Well, I know you've got some good stories in store this season, so viewers will be happy.

Yeah, lots of new stories. I know, Justin, you'll be happy to hopefully get a little break. Thank you for working so hard on this story, and I do hope you get to relax a little bit. Maybe take a glass-blowing class. All right, that is our Talking Dateland for this week. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or Dateland, you can reach out to us on social at datelineNBC. Also, please check out a great new series we've been working on called Dateline: The Smoking Gun, which premieres Thursday, October third at 8:00 PM Eastern on Oxygen. Again, each episode tracks the twists and turns of an intense murder investigation leading up to the moment detectives finally uncover that one critical piece of evidence that cracks the case. And of course, we'll see you on Fridays for Dateline on If your business sends or receives global payments, try OFX.

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