Transcript of Talking Dateline: Take Two

Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm here with the one and only Andrea Canning. Hi, Andrea.

Hey, Blaine.

Good to see you. We are here to talk about your episode, Take Two. This case truly has just about everything: an undercover sting, hidden cameras, a murder-for-hire plot, and a twist that investigators say that they almost never see. So, if you haven't listened to this episode yet, it's the one right below this one, or you can go watch it on Peacock. So, go there, watch it, watch or listen and then come right back here. And when you come back, we'll play a moment from Andrea's interview with detectives that didn't make it into our broadcast. All right, Andrea, let's talk Dateline.

Let's do it.

This one was— I mean, I think we say this at every Talking Dateline, but this one truly was— this was wild. This was all over the place. I didn't know what to expect almost from the very first second the episode started. This one was insane.

It really was. I mean, yeah, this is like what you call like a wild roller coaster. You know, of a case, and it really felt like a movie.

So, Andrea, just in case folks haven't seen it, or before we get into our discussion, just kind of summarize this for me. Give me a quick version of what happened in this episode.

Yeah, I mean, this is about a couple, Susan and Ira Bernstein, who had troubles in their marriage for quite a while. They had 3 kids, and Ira claims he's working like crazy to pay the bills, 'cause they have an extravagant lifestyle. Then he is reunited with a patient, Kelly Vriboluk. Kelly is eclectic career, mortician, former mortician, model. Now she's like selling shoe orthotics. So she comes to Ira and she says, "I want you to help me with this shoe business." They start an affair. Next thing you know, they are plotting to have Susan killed. And they went to the wrong person. They went to Markenzie because Markenzie decided, you know what? I'm gonna bring you two down because this is wrong. So Markenzie was responsible, along with the police, for stopping the plot to have Susan killed. Ira and Kelly go off to prison. Ira comes out, and what does he do? He starts talking about killing his wife again.

Insane.

Yeah. And also chooses again someone who does not want to be a part of this, a landscaper. He's like, no. Thankfully, Ira picks badly for Assassins.

So, let's talk— I mean, let's just break down everything that you just said right there. One, this is such a different type of Dateline episode because there is not actually a death, right? Like, we're talking about two murder plots, but they never actually come to fruition, thankfully. And I think a big piece of this is thanks to Mark Kinsey the first time around, right? Oh, yeah. Like, the fact that somebody comes to him and says, "Hey, 'Do you know how to kill somebody?' I mean, some people could have just said, 'No, I don't know how to do that,' and just gone about their business, right? Not gotten involved with the police to try and bring this person down.

It would be scary to, you know, if someone's serious about that. Also, Blaine, would you be like a little offended if someone thought that either you could kill someone or that you have friends who kill people? Like, I feel like, wait, is there something about me? Like, why are you picking me to I know. You know?

Well, I gave— I thought about that with Mark Kinsey because he— and you asked him, you're like, "Why? Did you say something maybe that made her think?" And he said something like, "Oh, if you're not happy, like, we can help," or, "I know someone who can take care of this," something like that. But it was a rather large leap to get to—

I think so. And, you know, I've gotten to know Mark Kinsey a little bit, you know, through this story, 'cause now, you know, I re-interviewed him, and he's such a nice man. Like, he's really— I just found him to be really sweet. He's a father. You know, he's— for me anyway, he's not somebody that I would, like, first instincts peg to be someone who's gonna find me a hitman.

00:03:53

Right. Right. He seemed— I was really just struck by how much time he spent trying to bring this case down. There were so many meetups. He had to have his car wired. And then you said not only did he go and meet up with her repeated times in these parking lots, he had to go meet with investigators, like, 45 minutes beforehand. So we're talking about a dad of kids. Like, that's a big chunk of time to kind of devote to.

It was a lot of work. And not only that, he's really putting himself in danger too, because if these people are willing to have someone killed, you know, now you're messing around with, with people capable of murder, right? Um, and then there's that moment that everyone, I feel like, talks about with this story, and it's that moment where Ira turns in the car and he sees a camera or something. He's Was that a camera? And it's like heart pounding, right? Because you're like, oh my gosh, he's about to figure this out. And Markenzie, thinking on his feet, is like, oh, it's for the kids' games or whatever. And Ira totally buys it.

Markenzie was brilliant, by the way. He was the right person for this. I mean, there were multiple times when he really thought on his feet, you know?

He did. And also, like, it shows you, like, Ira really doesn't trust his gut. He sees this thing and he's on the right track that something's amiss. But he ignores his gut.

He's like, "Oh, well, maybe it's fine. It's fine." You know, I have to say, you described this as a movie at the beginning. This is maybe the first one in a while that I can remember that I really felt like I was watching a movie. Like, I had that kind of pit in my stomach, or like that kind of nervousness, or like, "Oh my God, what's gonna happen next? Is he gonna get found out?" And that was just— I mean, that was present throughout almost the entire thing.

Yeah. And I love hearing it from your perspective, as someone who's seeing it for the first time. You know, because we get so close to our stories, and this is the second time, time I've done it because we had this major update. So for me, I know everything that's coming. So I love hearing it from you, you know, as a first-time viewer, to really feel those, like, twists and turns. And I mean, imagine being Susan, you know, we, we talk about this like, oh, it could be a movie, and, you know, oh, all these twists and turns. But like, poor Susan, you know, just— she had a target on her back twice. And I, I— the fear that you would have, you know, looking over your shoulder and going to sleep at night, and it It's real, you know?

A target on her back from her husband, mind you. I mean, that's just— that's the worst feeling. I want to— you brought up a good point. I want to kind of, like, bring in for our viewers who don't necessarily know how we do our stories. I mean, we are always so busy with our stories of our own at many different times that a lot of times we don't know what each of us has going on, right? So, a lot of times it's a big surprise for us too. And I have to say that when I was watching just the previews in the very beginning, I knew that it took place over, some amount of years because I saw your hair change. I watched, I saw the difference.

Oh yes. Oh yes. And I, when I had, when I had to watch it again, I was like, oh, is that good? Is that, is that bad? I'm like, oh, you know, you just kind of have that, like, what was I thinking? I don't know. I mean, it's not the worst, but I think my hair probably looks better now.

They were not, they were not bad at all. It's just one of those things that I feel like you and I only have, and like the guys don't have to deal with when they do stories over the course of however many years, right?

Has ever changed. So yeah, exactly.

No one could tell. No one could tell. But in watching it, that was kind of my first tell of like, okay, this took place over an amount of time. Can you just talk a little bit though about what it's like to follow a story for that long and then have such a major update as you had in this story?

Yeah. And Blaine, I've had Datelines with multiple pregnancies. That's how many years are passing. Um, we talk about hairstyles, but let's talk about babies too. It's just interesting how, like, uh, things change, you know what I mean? Like, so many things change, but you're still on the case. Um, and in this case, when our producer Lynn Keller told me that Ira was accused of trying to kill Susan again, my jaw dropped. To hear something like that, it's like, what the— what are you What is he thinking? And then when I confronted him at court for the sentencing for the second one, he says to me, like, you know, I asked him if he wanted to stop and talk and he says, "Why would I talk to you? You screwed me over the first time." Paraphrasing, I can't remember exactly what he said. But like, really? I screwed you over? How about you screwed yourself over, buddy?

You can never get inside the minds of folks, The interview was very fair.

Like, he gave him a chance to say everything that he needed to say.

He got his side out.

I mean, look, you know, we, we are journalists. We, we try to stay neutral and, you know, unbiased. But I can honestly sit here and tell you Ira considers himself like a victim forever. He is always the victim, right? He blames other people for everything. It's just he— everybody, even what in his sentencing And by the way, funny story about the sentencing too. I was sitting there in the courtroom and I'm, you know, I'm kind of on my phone waiting and just looking at my phone and I see someone like passes me or whatever. And I honestly was like really engrossed in like something I was reading. And I look up from my phone and I'm in the front row and I look up and Ira's sitting right next to me in the courtroom.

What?

Yeah, he's right beside me. It was just so weird. And we both looked at each other And he had—

did he say anything?

No, but he'd already made that comment, like, outside going in, you know. And something else, as, as he was actually— we were waiting for him, obviously, at the courthouse, right? We knew his sentencing was at 2 o'clock. And I, I see these two men walking, and I'm, I'm like, pretty far away, but I was like, that, that's not Ira. Like, those are like two attorneys or something. Like, there's no way that's Ira, right? And then I see Logan, our associate producer, running. And I'm like, okay, wait, Logan knows something I don't. Like, what? Wait, guys, go outside now. Like, Logan's running. Um, so we run outside, and then I'm looking and I'm looking, and I'm like, I have— I actually have pretty good eyesight from far away, and yet I still didn't know it. And it was Ira, and he had different weight, he had dark glasses on, he was His toupee was gone. So then we're like scrambling and, you know, he comes up and then of course he made his nice little comment to me. Sorry, I got off track. Oh yeah, I was talking about him being, you know, playing the victim because even in his statement, during his sentencing, he blamed the landscaper.

That it was all the landscaper's fault. And I'm thinking, what? Like, you know, take some responsibility.

Yeah. Yeah. When we come back, we'll hear a moment from Andrea's interview with detectives that reveals another shocking idea investigators say Ira had for targeting Susan. You know, I think what's— you talked about his victim mentality, and that was so apparent. That was so apparent, really, from the first moment that we heard him speaking, because I was just floored. The— at the way that he described Susan, like, oh, she's lazy, she doesn't do anything, she just takes care of the kids. I'm the one who's out here working, I'm the one who's keeping up our lifestyle. And I'm thinking to myself, like, this man has a very low understanding of just what it takes to raise kids and what it takes to keep a household, you know what I mean? Being a stay-at-home mom, like, the whole thing was just so— he had such a clear contempt for her, yeah, from the very beginning, before we even knew what his role in all of this was.

Absolutely. And you, you just hear in her through her words, the pain that it caused her, you know, the fear that she lives in, like, with 24 hours a day. I mean, she just said— she basically said, like, you destroyed our life, this life that we had. And he did. Divorce is hard enough on children, but not just divorce, but then dad's trying to kill mom.

And it also shows that he didn't learn his lesson, right? So even after he gets out of prison, especially after, it's like, okay, might he come back for a third. He's not somebody who is easily dissuaded from this thing that he wants to do.

The judge called it mind-boggling. The judge said that he was confused how someone could do this. I think we all are. Like, why would you— why would you do this again?

Yeah. Yeah. There were a lot of twists in this one. I mean, in addition to just that in and of itself. But, um, let's talk about Mark Kinsey. When you sat down and talked with him, it was clear that you all had such a great rapport, that you really got to know each other well, um, but that he had had this kind of sense of, "I just want to do what's right no matter what." Um, did he ever give any sense, like, was he nervous during this process? Like, just kind of what were his inner thoughts being part of this?

KRISTIN: Yeah, he, like, he seemed pretty cool about it. He just has kind of a laid-back vibe to him. So, there really was none of that where he's like, you know, "I thought my life could be over at any moment," or— It wasn't. It was— He's pretty cool under pressure.

I was gonna ask where, if he was still selling cars, or there were just so many skills of his that came out that he would be really good at undercover work or so many other things.

I know, maybe he should have like become a private investigator or something. Yeah, he's still in the car business. It was good to catch up with him again.

Of course. Let's talk about just this notion of an undercover operation, right? I mean, the wiring of the car, the having to meet up, the realization, I think what was interesting is that he could walk up to the line, but he couldn't do too much because he couldn't, you know, try and convince them to do something. How fascinating are those sting cases to you? I know that you went undercover in an episode yourself, right? Oh my gosh, yes.

Wow, that was a long—

Open Heart, that was a long time ago.

My gosh, yes. I was pregnant for real, and it was an adoption story. And it was myself and an AP who both pretended to be pregnant to meet with this an adoption lady who, you know, worked for an adoption agency. And I was trying to basically sell my baby, and I was saying, you know, what if I'm using drugs? Do I have to put that on the application? And she's like, no, you can leave it off.

Oh my gosh.

So that was— I was nervous though. You want to talk about heart pounding? My heart was pounding. Like during the adoption undercover, I was like, "Yeah, like the thump, the thump, the thump." Like, and she knew though. What was interesting, kind of just like Ira, you know where he was, his instincts were sort of like halfway there. This woman, she was halfway there. She knew something was up.

Interesting. Wow. I'm curious what happened with that.

Well, um, we ended up telling her we were from Dateline, and she got up and she like went away, like went to her car. And then the crazy thing is though, she actually came to New York and did a follow-up interview.

What a wild story. Yeah. Wow. So I, I know that for me, just watching undercover operations on TV, in your episode, in movies, I get nervous. So I can't imagine actually doing one of those.

I mean, it really was heartbreaking though, because she— people were being promised children. And what, Blaine, we're moms. Like, what would be more heartbreaking than you're expecting to get, you know, your child, to bring your child home, and then this woman—

After years of disappointment. Right.

And then this woman is saying, "Oh, sorry, they chose someone else." Meanwhile, it's all a scam. You know, it was, it was really, that's why we called it Hope and Heartbreak. Yeah, sure.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, this, I mean, people should go back and watch that one as well. Yeah. So let's get back to Podiatrist. Let's talk about Ira himself. I mean, we talked about him a little bit, but the, I think the funniest thing, I actually laughed out loud when you revealed that he was the official foot doctor, official podiatrist for the police department.

I mean, and both of these guys had been patients of his and like, And the meetings are happening like in the parking lot, like next to the police department. It's so funny because the morning our original show aired, um, yeah, I, so I was on another Dateline where I'd injured my like ankle foot getting out in a snowstorm, getting out of a police car.

And okay.

Um, it just wouldn't heal. So finally I broke down and made an appointment with the podiatrist and it happened to be the morning that our show was airing. And so I took a picture with the podiatrist and like put it on Twitter and I accidentally, this is so bad. I accidentally called him Ira Bernstein in the Twitter post. Like, I just— somebody, like, quickly corrected me, but I was like, "Oh my gosh! Sorry!" Like, "Please don't sue me.

I messed up." Just a normal, good doctor.

Exactly.

Yeah. That's hilarious. What a coincidence for timing.

I know.

For your appointment timing. Oh my goodness. But let's talk about Kelly. The dynamic between Kelly and Ira, but just Kelly herself, right? I'm curious what it was like for you to sit down with her.

I don't even know how to explain her. Like, it— I've never met anyone like her, where she did such a bad thing, and then it was almost like it wasn't that bad or something with talking to her. And also her loyalty to Ira, where, you know, she's like, "No, we're in love." And this is happening, and he's like my guy, and then he makes her sit in jail for 4 months. Well, he bails out in like 4 days or whatever.

Right? It was strange to me. I mean, a number of things, but one, just watching her be the one to kind of be this— I mean, she was like his shield, right? Like, she acted as his protector. This kind of like, "Well, we just need to be sure." And clearly, she was the one sticking her neck out, and he was kind of— staying in the background. But just this notion of like, there's this successful, clearly very well-off doctor, and she's the one doing all of the dirty work, right?

Yeah. It's so wrong. I know. And she was so in love with him. But she, from what I understand, from her attorney, is really trying to get her life back together and her relationship with her children. I think she's— hopefully learned her lesson. If Ira hasn't, hopefully Keli has.

Yeah. Yeah. And then let's talk about Susan. I think the thing about the story that just, at the very end, when we finally heard from Susan, but that she asked, even in the courtroom, that there were no cameras on her, that just broke my heart. Because I just thought about, gosh, what this woman has gone through, and to just try and hide, right? Like, she hadn't asked for any of this.

She really summed it up. In her victim impact statement, what her life has been like and, and how horrible it is for her, for her children.

I mean, there are so many pieces and so many different people in all of this. Let's talk about the landscaper, um, because he was somebody who, again, kind of going back to this kind of trail of people who just have been wronged in some way by Ira— I mean, this is a gentleman who lost his business essentially, or the control of his business, right?

Right. And, um, And Susan actually called not only the landscaper, but Markenzie her angels, you know, for saving her. And by the way, Susan and Markenzie are friends, which is really cool. But the landscaper, yeah, I mean, he— and I said to the detective, I said, like, doesn't he watch Dateline? The landscaper? Like, why would he want to get into business with someone like that? And she said, apparently, he knew. And Ira told the landscaper that it was all Kelly, that he got sucked into this thing because of Kelly. And so, He, again, is a victim. And so the landscaper trusted him and then got burned.

Gosh. Yeah. Let's talk about— there is an extra clip of an interview that you did with Detective Peggy Braddock that didn't make it into our broadcast, but I want to listen to a little bit of it here. She kind of describes this conversation that Ira had with that landscaper we were talking about, sitting around drinking wine, eating cheese. Ira floated this idea.

I mean, just the whole thing is just so—

So outside the realm of reality. Let's, let's take a listen to it.

And as the conversation went on, they started talking about things that weren't involving business. So they were telling some, you know, funny stories about their childhood and their past. And the landscaper told a story about a friend of his who was, I believe, in business with somebody and felt he had been done wrong. So when this person was driving, he called the police and told him that this person had drugs in their car and they were stopped and were ultimately arrested for having the drugs in the car. So Ira said to the landscaper, do you think we can do this to Susan? So as they were talking over wine and cheese, he says, well, my wife drives an Audi. And the landscaper says, well, my cousin, a distant cousin, works for Audi. And he's like, well, you think you can make a key? And, and the landscaper's like, well, how would you do this? He's like, what does Susan do? And he's like, well, she goes to book club, she goes to cooking club. And the landscaper's like, what are you crazy? And who's gonna think that a woman who goes to book club and to cooking club is carrying a kilo of drugs in her car?

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. What's wrong with you? And he just like puts a kibosh on the conversation.

So plant the drugs in Susan's car and have her arrested. It only escalated from there.

It definitely escalated from there. But it just shows that even back then, he was still thinking of ways to— The wheels— To get to his wife.

The wheels were turning, yes. Wow. He's like the Wile E. Coyote, you know, that keeps coming back, like the bad— With the weird plots. Yes, exactly. I should say, Blaine, we're laughing because of the absurdity of some of these things that we're talking about and hearing. It's not funny. Susan, this is her life. This is not funny. But it's hard not to laugh at moments of the absurdity of Ira Bernstein.

It just defies reality, defies logic, right? It's outside of the realm of what anyone would ever think that another human being would come up with.

Yes. It's hard to imagine them sitting over wine and cheese and being like, "Let's plant a kilo of drugs in her car." Yeah.

You know, I think that one thing that really stands out to me about this episode, and I recently, I just a couple of weeks ago, did a Talking Dateline with Keith on his Murder in Magnolia podcast series. And it was the same thing, this plot for hire to kill someone that fortunately never came to fruition. I am just stunned by how easily people can sit around and kind of hatch these ideas or talk about the notion of killing someone, paying to kill for— I mean, it comes so easily in these discussions. And it's, Unbelievable, really.

It is unbelievable because, like, number one, you have to be willing to take someone's life, okay? But then, then you have to think about, what if I'm caught? Yes, I'm gonna go to prison for the rest of my life. And what will happen to my children? And all these different things.

And then you still think it's a good idea, still going through all these things.

And the, the dumbest thing about murder for hire is that Now you're involving another person. This person that you bring, or people that you're bringing into this plot, are not gonna turn on you, or tell someone else, or— Like, that's a lot of trust to place in someone. Yes. Truly.

Truly. Well, there was so much in this episode. And coming up after the break, we will answer some of your questions from social media. As you can imagine, we have lots of social media comments, questions, thoughts. We can go through a few of those.

My favorite part. I love hearing from our faithful viewers.

Well, listen, as you can expect, people had thoughts about this episode. Lots of thoughts. So, let's go to the first one. Okay. @rayford512 asks, "Was Kelly a real mortician that did embalming, or did she just—" sell caskets at the funeral home? Great question.

When I asked Kelly about her role as a mortician, she went to school, learned how to embalm, but she didn't actually do embalming because, uh, I guess because of the Jewish faith, they do not embalm.

Okay, so she had the skill, she just didn't put it in practice necessarily. This is from Fran Mackin. Okay, this is a good one. I would have liked more discussion on his comment to Andrea questioning why would he talk to her slash Dateline again after what they did to him the first time. Did he feel he He was portrayed badly, edited badly. So, we haven't talked about that a little bit. He never said.

He just kept walking and I kept, you know, calling out some more questions to him and then he was gone. And then even when I was sitting next to him in the courtroom, nothing, just silence. So, you know, only Ira would know what he is upset about.

What he's thinking there. Okay. Here's one from Jamie Walsh Honeycutt. I know the doctors make a lot of dough, but his wealth seemed even more beyond that. What's the full story? Where did his money come from? Did he come from money?

I'm not sure what his family situation was with money, but he had different centers, like foot centers. And he also, if I recall correctly, was buying properties, like real estate. So I think the money was coming from different places, but they lived in a beautiful house on a beautiful property.

I have to say, when I first saw that aerial shot, like early, early in the episode, I said, oh my gosh, like, what? What is his— what's this person's story? Because yes, that goes far beyond any just normal doctor wealth.

Yes. And they had a lake, their own lake. I mean, they just— a dock.

I mean, it was quite the estate. Yes, yes. I'm curious, aside from, I mean, his prison and the divorce, did Susan get any other money from him? Just like a financial kind of penalty for trying to have her killed?

Susan sued not only Ira but Ira's sister, as well for damages, and, um, that is unresolved.

Okay, got it. Um, here's a question from @penny_pumpkin33. Love it. Who writes, uh, was Mark Kinsey getting paid to help with this investigation? I hope so.

Not that I'm aware of. I think he just did it because he wanted to help and save Susan out of the goodness of his heart.

Yeah. And here's the one— this one's for a comment. It's from @erictpurser who writes, wow, how do you get two easy sentences for attempted murder? Hmm.

I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing. Ira never actually pled guilty to conspiracy to commit murder. He pled guilty to tampering with evidence. And so, you know, there's only so much prison time that comes with a crime like that. It was different from the first time around. It was a trickier trickier case.

Yes, I think a lot of people would agree with that one. Absolutely. Well, Andrea, this was a fascinating episode. Um, I mean, a case you followed for a long time, and it was just really, really just interesting to watch. So thank you so much, and thanks for talking Dateline with me.

Thanks, Blaine.

And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Thanks so much as always for listening. Remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio or video questions on social media @datelineNBC Or you can leave us a voicemail on the telephone. That number is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here on a Talking Dateline podcast. And don't forget to listen to Josh's new podcast, Trace of Suspicion, available now wherever you get your podcasts. And you can get early access to subsequent episodes and listen ad-free to all Dateline podcasts by subscribing to Dateline Premium. That's all for us now. We will, of course, see you Friday at 9/8c on Dateline on NBC.