Transcript of Talking Dateline: Secrets in the Ashes

When I sat down with her in prison, I told her, I said, Patrick, we just talked to him, and he says you're his ride or die. She's like, Oh, my baby. I was like, Oh, cringe.

Okay, I'm not the only one. Hi, everyone. I'm Lester Holt, and we are talking Dateland. Today, I'm here with Andrea Canning to talk about her episode, Secrets in the Ashes. If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateland podcast feed, and then come right back here to listen to our discussion. So to recap, after a suspicious home fire in Texas leaves a mother dead, her husband, Delbert Mills is eventually convicted of her murder. Investigators are left wondering if Delbert's second wife, someone called Allison Salinas, was also involved, but she's never charged. Allison moves to Illinois and starts over, essentially. She opens a bakery, some other businesses, money-making schemes, if you will. But after she tries to get an ex-boyfriend to murder the new man in her life, she is arrested and ends up in prison. In this episode, we'll have a podcast exclusive clip of Andrea's prison interview with Delbert Mills, what he says his biggest regret is. So stick around for that. And later, we're going to answer some of your questions on social media. For now, let's talk Dataline. Hey, Andrea, this is quite a story.

Thanks for being here talk about it.

Yeah, good to be here with you, Lester.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say these are two very dangerous people. Whose story did you hear about first? Was it Delbert's Conviction for the Fire or Allison's murder for Hire Scheme?

We actually got on the story because of Allison's murder for Hire Scheme in Illinois and then learned about this situation in Texas that happened years earlier where she ends up marrying this killer, this man who killed his wife, Patricia Lee. It's the more current story that got Dateland's attention, but then we realized there was a lot more to it. Different time, different location, but Allison was at the center of both. Again, not charged with anything in Texas.

So this story really starts at the crime scene, at the fire, this home burning in Goliad, Texas. It's hard to imagine a little six-year-old boy, but John Michael, the child in the house, essentially watches his home go up in flames, then hearing his mother died in the fire.

I mean, as I said in the show, I have a six-year-old son. He's six and a half. I was trying to put myself in his mind. If something like that happened to him, would he be equipped for that? Would he know what to do? To get out of the house, of course, and also in the days that followed and how difficult that is for a young boy to to deal with. But John Michael, to be in essentially a death trap, the doors are blocked, there's pad locks, he's sick. To be able to get out of his window with his toy box, throwing it at the window and getting out. I mean, that was really amazing on his part. I can't even imagine you in that situation hearing that about your mom and also having just gone through a fire.

Yeah, I mean, my thing is at 6: 00, you don't even really know what death is. No. Being told somebody's dead is like, what does that mean?

You just know your mom's never coming home.

You just know that she's gone, and you don't know why, you don't know how.

I'm so sorry.

Yeah, and there is obviously an investigation into this fire, its origins. Ultimately, investigators move on, say, We recommend this case is closed. Is it clear why they moved on?

I did really press the investigator, and he essentially admits, I was leaving the department. I had a lot of other cases. I didn't have time. He basically admits it fell through the cracks, which is sad. You're dealing with a potential murder, right? Because they didn't know at that time yet because it hadn't been properly investigated. But I We certainly have to wonder if this was a different family, if this family had a lot of money, if this happened in a mansion, would it have been handled differently? I mean, this was a tiny little house. These people had no money. You heard it. The father wouldn't let them use electricity to save money. They had to use these kerosine lanterns. I mean, so I do wonder if you had more power, more money, would it have been investigated differently from the start and would it have not fallen through the cracks?

Yeah. As so many of these stories we cover, Andrea, it's the family that ultimately keeps the case out there that continues to demand for justice.

Yeah, this was no exception, Lester. Sharon, Patricia Lee's sister, the victim's sister, she just hounded the Goliad Sheriff's Department. She just was constantly over there bugging them, telling them to keep going. Have you looked at this person? She's doing essentially her own interviews with people. I mean, Sharon's the sister we all want, the sister who clearly loved her sister with everything she had and was not going to let this go. It paid off because just rattling those cages, I mean, eventually it paid off because the new sheriff said, You know what? Let's dive into this, thankfully.

Can things begin to happen?

Yeah. So the sheriff got this former investigator on board to come and take another look. It really cracked things wide open. Of course, Delbert is arrested and charged and ultimately convicted of Patricia Lee's murder.

Okay, let's talk a little bit about Allison Salinas. Among other things, she was a want to be senator. This was part of her new life as she was moving on. What do we know about that?

I think what we know about this is that I don't think we can take her Senate run all that seriously. I mean, she did say she was running for US Senate, but from what I understand, she didn't really show up to a lot of things or really do much. I think it sounded good in theory, but I don't know that her money was where her mouth was.

Yeah, and she tried other things in this new life. She was raising money, charitable dollars. She was organizing events. Things just didn't seem to be working out. As I'm watching this part of the story, I'm thinking, Okay, is she just a flake? I mean, there are people that are not good at business and not good with money. Or was she a fraudster?

I think there's a lot of people who would say fraudster. I don't think I once heard the term flake or that she just doesn't follow through. I think the people that we spoke to and a lot of the complaints online all point directly to fraud. Allison has had some charges in her past relating to fraud, but there's a lot of things that she has had no consequences for, that people are accusing her of things and nothing ever happened.

Okay, when we get back, we've got a podcast exclusive clip of Andrea asking Delbert Mills about his biggest regret. So this story takes yet another twist when Allison reaches out to her former her high school boyfriend who she hasn't talked to in about 30 years.

Yeah, James was really... James was very surprised to hear from her. I mean, imagine if your high school girlfriend calls you up out of the blue and wants to just start talking and then starts telling you all of her innermost secrets and the state of her marriage and her cancer and all the rest of it. Then she gets into killing her husband. You can only imagine what would be going through your mind if someone from your past randomly contacted you. Yeah.

Then James, at one point, he goes to the authorities, but that goes nowhere. He gets frustrated and doesn't really put this down, but takes off on his own direction.

I mean, it's so strange. He's contacting the police about something very serious, and it's on body cam, and the police officer is like, Just don't call her back. Well, if you don't want to cause any issues by blocking her, then just don't respond to her. What? No, that's not That's not how this should have been handled, in my opinion. The Peacom Police Department, they declined to speak with us. But I think every murder for hire plot should be at least looked at, at least investigated. That did not happen here. Until Kate and James forced their hand when they went public with this on social media, and then the police took it seriously.

Yeah, they were very anxious to suddenly and see where he is.

Yeah. Thankfully, nothing happened to Patrick in that time period? Because you never know. Allison, she asked James to help her find an assassin or a killer. What if she had gone to someone else? What if James wasn't getting the job done? So she went and found another person that James didn't know about. I mean, you have to take someone like that seriously because you don't know. And a man's life could be in danger.

These calls that he had with Allison, where, as you said, she's discussing a murder for hire plot. I think our viewers will look at that section and wonder, okay, was she serious? I think you could argue it sounded certainly serious.

I think it sounded very serious. Something's going to happen, man, because that's my only way out. It's not about the fact that he's alert that they're selfish, but even that's too iffy. Because it takes a while for it to react, so he would have time to get help. If there's anything involved with the gunshot, there would have to be a silences, so there's no sound. And the shot would have to be just right. We're getting pretty detailed in these calls. I don't know.

Yeah, in these recordings, there's some memorable lines. It's not like you have assassins on speed dial.

On speed dial.

Also hearing her laugh when she's talking about murdering her husband, that's a little bizarre.

I know. And then not just that, like the memorable moments in the interview as well, where I throw out some less significant things to her. The accusation was that you sold frozen baked goods that you got from a supplier and that you weren't making your own baked goods in the bakery. Made killer brownies, made killer cookies, made killer cupcakes. It's interesting choice of words. Well- Interesting way to describe it. Sorry. I don't mean it like that. I mean, they were just Very good. No, it's just given why we're here. I mean, they were very delicious. You can just see this smile emerge. Like, slowly the smile is happening on my face. I don't think she got it. I think she eventually did. I don't think she got it at first when I was smiling. And then it was like, well, she's like, wait, wait. And then you see her get it eventually. And then she's like, basically, don't take it out of context. And I'm like, well, given why we're here, No interesting choice of words. That was a train wreck moment in an interview, I feel like.

You've done murder for higher stories before. How did this one stack up?

This one was the weirdest one yet because It's very rare that a wife decides she wants to kill her husband, and then the first person she calls from jail is her husband. Then immediately, her husband stands by her. It It was just upside down world. It didn't make any sense. She wants you dead, and you're okay with it. You're okay with her. Then when I sat down with her in prison, I told her, I said, Patrick, we just talked to him, and he says you're his ride or die. She's like, Oh, my baby. I was like, Oh, cringe.

Okay, I'm not the only one. Yeah, that was a moment. Yeah.

I mean, come on.

So did Allison know that James a registered sex offender when she reached out to him?

You know, that's a really good question. I don't know if we ever asked them, Allison or her husband, when they learned of that. I don't. So I don't know the answer to that. I just know that they were very aware and they brought it to our attention about James, but I'm not sure when they found out.

I would imagine a lot of people would walk away from this situation. As I look at where James found himself, there's a big twist. He really plays citizen-detective, but he has his own dark past as a registered sex offender. This is really a story about who you can trust or who you think you can trust.

Yeah. We needed to take that very seriously as well, because even though, yes, Allison has pled guilty to this, they do have a good point, Allison and her husband, in saying, pointing out James's flaws as well. Is he to be trusted or can he manipulate people? So we did take that very seriously, and we contacted James about that. It was not something we took lightly when putting this story together, that whole discussion surrounding that. So Allison says that she was manipulated by James. So that's her side of the story. The other thing she really wanted to get across as well was that she felt like she didn't have the proper representation from her public defender. She felt like she was railroaded into taking this plea deal and that it just wasn't handled right. Her problem is now is that I believe She's not eligible for an appeal with the plea deal that she signed, but she's still trying to find other avenues to get things resolved the way she wants.

You also sat down with Delbert, and it's neat that you were able to sit down with two. The two key players in this. What was he like?

Oh, Delbert. He got me mad. He got me really mad. I saw that.

I was going to ask you about that next.

I mean, come on. He's like, I'm protecting him all this time, and as long as he doesn't get in trouble. And I'm like, I don't think he's going to get in trouble, Delbert. You're the one sitting in prison. And he's saying, I'll stay in here as long as he's safe. And I'm like, no one's going to believe you, so you don't need to worry about it. Like, your son is fine. Also, this is a real jerk move as a father.

What you're referring to is when he comes out and says his son admitted that he set the fire. If I recall, you came back and said, Why? You're blaming your son. He goes, I'm not blaming. It's just that's what he said.

Just that's what he said. Well, okay. First of all, why wouldn't you tell authorities that in the beginning? Okay, his answer might be, Well, I was protecting him. Okay, that's just what whatever. I don't believe him. But then he goes on to tell all these witnesses that he killed his wife and how he did it. And then he's offering to kill someone else's husband. The whole thing to me was just absurd. The only thing is, and our editor, Rich Platt, brought this up, and this is a question that I should have asked Allison. I know she would have denied it, but I still should have brought it up. And maybe to the police as well as, is it possible that Delbert really did go off to work, didn't set the fire before he left his little plan that they said he had with the oil and the candle. Is it possible, this is just a question, she's not been charged with a crime, is it possible that Allison is the one who just, when he went off to work, set the fire? That's a question that should be posed. Her alibi was never checked out.

She said, Well, I wouldn't have had time. She went to some other city. I wouldn't have had time to get to that city and back to have any involvement. Well, no one chased down her alibi. Law enforcement told us that in our interviews that her alibi was never followed up on.

Okay. Well, you have some extra sound from that interview. You asked him what his biggest regret is. So let's listen to that.

What is your biggest regret in your life? My biggest regret in my life is not being there for my son like I should have been. That's my biggest regret. Not killing your wife, his mother. Well, I didn't kill his mother, so I can't say that. If I'd have done it, yeah, that would have been one of my biggest... That would have been my biggest regret. But my biggest regret as of now is not being there for my son like I should have been. When he finds out what you've said about him, about starting the fire, possibly? If he wants to talk to me about it, all he's got to do is write me, and I'll be more than happy to sit down type him back or write him back and explain to him the best I can. I don't think he's going to really like hearing that. Well, probably not. I was correct. John Michael was very, very upset with hearing that.

Yeah, he takes the mic off and walks off the set. But as you watch this story, your heart continues to go back to him, what he's been through, how it has really shaped other events in his life.

It has. I mean, he told me he struggled with drugs and depression and all these different things as a result of what happened to him. And it's heartbreaking, right? As he said, I lost the person who loved me the most, his mom, his best friend. She just loved him so much, and according to the family, and wanted to be a mom so bad. Delbert took that away from him. Now Delbert's blaming him for the death of his mother, which is just despicable.

Okay, after the break, we will be back to answer your questions from social media. Welcome back, Andrea. Lots of social media questions about this episode. Up first, a question about the fire that killed Patricia Lee. Here's Henry Simus on Facebook. Henry says, Why are the doors locked from the outside in the burning house? They never addressed that in the trial of Delbert. What about that, Andrea?

I mean, no one knows for sure, but there definitely was a theory that Delbert possibly did that himself, so Patricia Lee would not be able to get out of the house. But that is not confirmed. It's just a suspicion from the police. But maybe if a proper investigation had been done, we would know more about that.

Yeah, here's one from Sandy Castle, @sandy_castle_rb, who writes, As usual, all he had to do was divorce her. How many times have we heard that in relation to a deadline story? It's not like was offering her anything during their marriage, it would have been an easy divorce, Sandy says.

I agree, Sandy. Absolutely. This would have been a very easy divorce. But the family, they believe that Delbert wanted money. He was able to get a new truck. Then he was able to marry Allison. I mean, I think there's just a ton of unknown elements to this case.

Okay. Also thinking about Allison and her new husband's relationship, what's the status of that relationship?

So at last, when we interviewed Patrick and Allison, they were fully still in love and going to ride the storm. He was going to be waiting for her when she gets out, both of them seemed committed to the relationship as you saw on the show.

Yeah. Andrew, there were so many comments about your prison interviews. Let's start with your interview with Allison. This is from Tommy Foley who writes, It always It amazes me how you keep a straight face interviewing some of these people. On a scale of one to Nikolaus Rossi, how hard was it to keep it together during the Allison interview? Killer cupcakes.

Well, you did see me crack a smile on that on killer cookies, killer brownies. That's a first for me. But I would say most of that interview, I was more frustrated than anything else because I felt like Allison was not being truthful with me.

I thought this question was fascinating from Lauren write on Facebook, Lauren writes, Allison rolls her eyes every time she lies. Sitting across from these criminals in your prison interviews, did anything about Allison or Delbert's body language stand out to you?

Sometimes I think the viewers probably can pick up on it better than us when we're sitting there in the hot seat. Allison would get very testy when I brought up certain things. If I brought up Kate, who's arguably her arch-nemesis in Illinois, she would start to get very upset and then push back on me, and I don't want to talk about that. She would try to shut me down.

We had a lot of questions about your interview with Delbert. Here's Jamie Olmsted on Facebook. Jamie writes, I came away from this episode with the urge to let Andrea Kenning know how impactful it was to see a member of the media drop the pretense of impartiality and be human. Standing up to an injustice is rarer than it should be, and it gives me a surge of hope to see it. I thank you for letting your humanity override the status quo. That's an interesting observation, and I think a great comment about the line you had to walk in this.

Yeah. Thank you, Jamie. Yeah, I mean, we do want to be impartial as much as we can, obviously, as journalists. But Delbert really got me mad. Yeah, because I'd already had the chance to interview John Michael, his son, and I knew how much pain John Michael was in. It just made me really angry when he said, I'm here to set the record straight that my son told me he set the fire. And I just thought, wow, you're just a piece of you know what at this point. But it was interesting, though, when I asked him about Allison, if he knew if she had anything to do with it, he said, I don't know. So which is it? It was just it was strange.

Well, this gets better. Here's one from Shana Manley on Facebook. Shana writes, Andrea Canning is my hero. I have He found respect for her while she was interviewing the father of Gelbert. I was just thinking, You go, lady. Let him have it.

Oh, that's so nice.

Pretty sure John's mom, Patricia, would be proud of the way she represented the moms by calling out his disgusting accusation.

Oh, that's really nice. We didn't air this in the show, but John Michael, they showed him my side, and John Michael looked at the video and he said, I love her. For me, that just made it all worth it. I thought, you know what? It was for John Michael. My response. It wasn't about me or anything else. It was about him.

Yeah, these are people's lives, and you did a really terrific job telling this story. So, Andrea, thank you so much. And thanks to all our viewers and listeners for stopping by. Well, that's it for Talking Dateland this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateland, you can reach out to us 24/7 on social media at datelandnbc. If you have a question for Talking Dateland, leave it for us as a voicemail at 212-413-5252, or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode We'll see you Fridays on Dateland on nbc.