Transcript of Talking Dateline: Down the Rabbit Hole

Out of nowhere, there it was. Sudden, shocking, terrifying.

I have never in my life felt fear like that.

Was this someone's idea of a sick prank? Or was it a horror movie? Come, horribly alive.

I'm thinking he killed him. I need to film the murder.

I'm Keith Morison, and this is Dateline's newest podcast, The Man in the Black Mask.

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Hi, everybody. It's Josh Mankowitz, and we're talking Dateland today with Keith Morison. Very somber-looking Keith Morissen.

I'm not somber. I'm perfectly happy. Content to be here. I could be a hundred other places, and here I am with you.

Perhaps you could supply us with a list of those places later. So this episode is called Down the Rabbit Hole, and it is the story of the 2012 murder of Maryanne Murphy in her home in Humble, Texas, and the twists and turns, and from what I can discern, roughly one gillion lies that led detectives to her killers. Now, if you have not listened to the broadcast yet, it is the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts that you just chose from. So go there and listen to it, or if you want to watch it on TV, you can stream it on Peacock and then come back here. Now, today, Keith has an extra clip that he's going to play for us from the Jailhouse phone calls part of this.

Oh, boy, that's a good part.

And also, like many other things in this story, very hard to believe. Then, Keith and I are also going to answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media. So stick around for that. So let's talk Dateland. Okay, so let's start at the top. From the beginning, watching this, I was thinking, Man, I hope... This feels so obviously like it's going to turn out, Carrie killed her mom and lied about everything else. I'm thinking, How are you going to do that for two hours? Because I already suspect her in the first 10 minutes.

You're just a suspicious guy.

I am a suspicious guy.

Another guy confessed to it. So why should we think she did it?

Before that, I was just thinking, it's so obviously her, right? But then it's just one twist after another another and one crazy lie after another. I lost track.

I didn't even try to count them all because it was one after another after another.

Maybe it's because we've been doing this for such a long time, but when I see things like the note left in the house and I ran outside because my mom is being killed, and I slip on a piece of paper on the lawn and I pick it up, right? That's right. The minute I heard that, I'm like, Okay, well, she's obviously involved. Yeah, exactly. Because that is too much storytelling, which is a trap a lot of people end up falling into. You're talking too much.

What it seemed to me to be was evidence that more than one person was doing this planning. They came up with ideas, and, okay, if that idea doesn't work, then do this.

If Zane was not part of this, and he wasn't, right, then Kari had no way of knowing that he was going to cop to this. She must have thought, Wow, this is my lucky day.

I I believe she did think that, yes.

This guy I lied about is actually going along with the lie.

Yeah, go figure, right?

I mean, he talked himself into the jail house.

He did. Yeah, he did. But his family knew that very day that he couldn't possibly have done it and told the police so and provided proof that he was actually at home playing a video game.

You try to explain it to the audience, but I still don't get it. Why did he lie? Why did Zane confess to this? Well, actually, he actually... He didn't do it. He knew he didn't do it. What was his relationship with Kerry? Was he trying to take the heat off her? What was going on?

Strange as darn thing. Again, this is all spoilers, right? But Kerry was claiming that Zane was stalking her, that Zane was obsessed with her. Zane had no idea what she was talking about.

Because it felt from the beginning like the stalking story was something that she set up in advance to be an alibi. It's all BS.

But they put him in front of a questioner, and he denied, denied, denied, denied. He had nothing to do with this. And then they took him into the polygraph machine, and all that is recorded is that he failed the test, failed it miserably. But also, interestingly enough, the person who actually committed the crime passed the test. So that might tell you something about polygraph. Well, it does. We don't know how hard he was pushed. We do know, however, that when he was picked up and brought in for questioning, it was the task force that picked him up, and he He was terrified when he was pulled out of the house and taken down to the station.

But presumably, one of the questions that he was asked was, were you there when Maryanne was killed? You have anything to do with this. You have any knowledge of the planning? We've talked about this before. Frequently, polygraphs are at their most useful when people refuse to take them because that generally is taken by law enforcement or can be taken as a sign that they're hiding something. Some of these people have a willingness to take polygraphs, exactly the same thing. That's a good sign. What he was up to, I literally do not understand. I mean, was this a case of police pressing too hard? Because sometimes, particularly with kids or people who are not veterans of the criminal justice system, false confessions are easier to get.

Zane is actually a perfect example of the person who tends to confess falsely. He was vulnerable without a doubt. But all indications were that the initial real interrogation was not the harsh thing that would lead somebody, even a vulnerable person, to falsely confess. And because they had to wait to be sure that they could undo that confession. This brings up another subject. That once a person, once, usually a young person, has confessed to a crime, even if the police are aware that that confession is false within hours of it being made- No, it's like a boulder coming downhill. Oh, absolutely. And it takes a long, long time and a a lot of legal bouncing around before finally they can get the confession wiped.

So many people need to hear when they are facing interrogation by police is, one, retain legal counsel, and two, try not to tell multiple and conflicting stories.

Well, those are two very good pieces of advice. I will never understand why people feel the need just because they're put in a room surrounded by a couple of detectives to answer every question. You say, Whoa, I'm pretty scared. I want my lawyer here to help me.

Who are you talking to? Who are you blowing a kiss to?

It was my delightful and charming wife who just brought me a beautiful big cup of tea.

She's the best.

Tell her hello. She is that, yes. I'll do that.

Why she puts up with you? We literally don't... There aren't enough talking datelines to explain.

No, probably not. No. I've never understood why, I've stopped asking because as long as she's there, that's the main thing.

Hard to understand. All right, back to the story. One of the things I thought really worked in this was showing the detective going back to the house at night, looking around. Now, obviously, that was not done at the time of the murder. How did we make that work?

Well, the new family living in the house was happy to help, which is not something you always run into, for sure.

No, frequently, they don't want you there.

Yeah, of course. Who can blame them? They don't want the news spreading around even more than it might already be. There is location fee involved, of course. But the question remains, why do some people feel comfortable living in a house where such a heinous crime has occurred, and other people don't. Just an interesting little quirk about human nature. I don't know what the answer is.

When we come back, we have an extra clip from Rebecca and Kerry's Jailhouse phone calls.

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You ready for what's coming?

Hey, guys. Willy Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with Stephen Colbert, of course, the host of The Late Show on CBS, and now a cookbook author. We talk about his rise through comedy and yes, some family recipes from Charleston, South Carolina. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

Hey, it's Josh Mankowits from Dateland with a question for you true crime fans. How do you catch a killer whose motive is simply unimaginable? Investigators give us a fascinating look inside a very twisted mind as his secrets are finally uncovered. If you think you've heard every Dateland Story. Think again. Listen to Motive for murder and a dozen other riveting series when you follow the Dateland Originals podcast.

Some stories are stories that go back centuries. This one really was a version of a Shakespeare play. This could be a Shakespeare play because it's Romeo and Juliet with a different outcome. But all the All the the side characters and the little avenues you go down that are false trails, the rabbit holes, are there, but in a way that they would be in a Shakespearean play. It's a tragedy, clearly, but just fascinating to see what the details were. Human beings don't change all that much over the centuries in some particular ways.

Were you able to tell exactly when Carrie's relationship with her mother went not just bad, but homicidially bad? I mean, how long before Maryanne was killed?

I got the distinct impression that it was when Deputy Hooper came over to arrest the girlfriend, Rebecca, and take her downtown and charge her. At that point, it was going to be all at war, and the planning began. This is the most shocking part of it all, that a daughter can actually get together with somebody else and plan to commit a crime of that sort. Then, as she admitted at the tail end of things, something Rebecca, apparently, didn't even know, is that she was right there watching the whole thing go down.

Clearly, there was some agreement that I'll do the crime and you don't have to be there.

But then she did. Then she did. The other thing about it was that after professing their love to each other hundreds and hundreds of times on these phone calls from jail, that particular young woman, Kari, was quite naive about what law enforcement might in the end do, and went on living her life. I mean, she just... The the atrocity which would have been committed did not seem to matter a whole lot to her.

I don't like to... I'm no psychologist, and I don't like to throw around words like sociopath, but she clearly understood the difference between right and wrong. But what she was facing, she did not seem to understand, and it did not seem to bother her at all that she done that to her own mother.

They still felt that they could get out of it somehow. Their conversations, their jailhouse conversations, which were, I mean, phenomenal. I can only imagine being one of the police officers listening to them. But they seemed to know enough that they had to cover their tracks most of the time, and they only leaked occasionally. But of course, the occasional leak is all they need to find out what they need to find out.

It was that recorded phone call that led prosecutors to think to themselves, Okay, this is it. We can go ahead now.

Yes. They'd been waiting for something just like that. They'd been waiting for that moment when there would be a conscious knowledge of what they had done, expressed over the telephone in such a way that they could play that in court and a jury would say, Oh, yes, I can see now what happened here, and find them guilty. They didn't have to go that far in the end. But that's why they were waiting. They were waiting for that for a long time.

This It feels like a good place to listen to the extra sound that we have. This did not make the episode. This occurred when Rebecca was locked up and Kari was out on bond, and there's a couple of pieces of sound here. In the first, Kerry is talking about how she protected Rebecca when her mom, when Maryanne, caught them in the house. And in the second, they're discussing how prosecutors offer them a deal that they don't want to take. So let's listen to those.

My mom tried to hurt you when we were in the bathroom and she can't like, I told you to back up in the corner. I moved you behind me. And you were like, you kept trying to push yourself in front of me. And I told my mom that she wasn't going to touch you. Remember? Oh, no. Right before she called the cops? Yeah, I don't know. I was like, You're not going to touch her. She's like, Oh, yeah? You love her? I was like, Yeah. I wasn't going to lay a hand on you. She's going to have to go through me first. She ever takes the right arm of you? Jesus Christ. Since we're so young, they're trying to offer us so much time to try and make a confession. Basically saying, Okay, well, if you make a confession, we'll cut your time and half. So they're trying to play us, but it's not working. It's not because we're a lot smarter than what they think they are.

Yeah, a lot smarter than police. Yeah. The police rely on that. Others thinking that they are smarter than the cops. You've seen it a ton of times. I've seen it a ton of where a good detective will allow him or herself to be seen as a dope. It's the Columbo approach, I guess, and it puts people at ease, and then they get the impression that they're the smart one in the room.

I got to say, it is Hearing a defendant say, Yeah, we're a lot smarter than the cops, on a phone call that the cops are listening to and recording. Yeah, I think we know the answer to that. One of the things is a larger thing that came out of this for me. It was the way that lying is perceived now. Lying used to be something that was inherently shameful. George Washington couldn't tell a lie. Today, people can't tell the difference, and it doesn't matter.

The not mattering is disturbing.

The people involved in this, particularly, Kari and Rebecca, seem to Cary, in particular, it doesn't matter. I'll say whatever I want to say if it'll get me out of it.

Yeah, that's right. Her brother, by the way, was very slow to accept that, and it breaks his heart even to talk about it now.

I thought he was a great character, and I thought you did a great job with him. I loved how you could see him evolve along with her stories evolving through the entire episode because he starts out like, I know her. This could never have happened. At the end, He's like, I barely have any contact with her because of what she did. We've covered plenty of family members who will not accept what was proven in court and admitted on wire taps and testified to. But he's not one of them. He knows what's out there.

It's like a bomb went off in that family, and it's often the case when a murder occurs. It's just the whole thing comes apart. His father is in an institution. His sister is in prison for a very long time. His mother is dead. He's trying to build a life, but he's the only one left, and he has all that emotional baggage to carry around. So I felt for that guy a lot.

I love the way that you guys ended the episode, which was talking about her like, Hey, look, let's be clear on a couple of things. Like, those last few minutes of her life, that was not her life. She had this whole other life, and she was a wife and a mom and a daughter and a friend. One of the things that gets lost sometimes in coverage of murders is who the victim was on all the days that the crime wasn't committed. I think that's important because I think that's a bigger part of their life than just the way they died.

Absolutely true. Yeah, that's quite right.

After the break, we are going to come back and answer some of your questions from social media. Okay, on to social media. Very interesting that the first question on social media is from our friend, Anxiety Fries, Kim, who we love, and it's about, Do you have your big boy pants on? She says, I can't think of a worse way to tell your son his mother is dead. I got to tell you, I can't either. That is not in any parenting notebook or a handbook that I'm aware of.

It did not surprise the son, though, because it didn't surprise Scott at all. That's the way his dad would communicate. He was an interesting dude, a loving man who had trouble expressing it, a person who was happy to be married to Maryanne, but had a drinking problem. They'd had some issues in their marriage, but really, deep down, he was happy to be where he was. And as it turned out, not being able to be where he was, not having his wife anymore was too much for him. He couldn't take it.

When he said, when Scott quoted him as saying, I can fix a lot of things, but I can't fix this, that was just heartbreaking.

It was, yeah.

And on the other side of deploring his comment about, Do you have your big boy pants on is Bobby G-62? It sounds like dad had good advice that night, which is true in that sense, which was a torrent of bad news was coming. I think the audience had some mixed emotions on that. Favorite Auntie Jen tells us. She says, I heard one line from the daughter, and I started putting money on her as the killer. No affect, emotion, no tears in an interview right after your mother was brutally murdered. She seemed unaware that investigators are going to be looking not just at her words, but everything else about her as she tells that story.

She and Deputy Hooper would be on the same page there.

Here's an interesting question that came in from Instagram. It's from Meliopola. Meliopla. M-e-l-y-o-p-l-e-a. And said, I need to know if Josh and Keith don't get along. On the podcast, it sounds like playful animosity with an underneath layer of disdain. I would object to that. Bingo. I would object to that very strongly. It's not an underlying layer of disdain. It's disdain.

It's disdain, yeah.

Well, now I'm going to tell- To rise above it.

Character will out.

Now I'm going to tell a secret, which is Oh, boy. Yeah, you're going to hate this. Everybody on Dateland, everybody, camera crews, producers, APs, everybody. Everybody loves Keith, and I'm no different.

I do, too. That's about the nicest thing anybody's ever said to me.

And that is Talking Dateland for this week. Keith, thank you. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Remember, if you have any questions for us about anything on the broadcast, any of our stories, or any cases that you think we should cover, you can reach out to us on social at Dateland, NBC. See you Fridays on Dateland, on NBC. And remember to listen to Keith's all new podcast, which is called The Man in the Black Mask.

Yeah, or Josh, say it correctly, The Man in the Black Mask.

Okay, I don't have your voice, okay? But let me do my best. Try to listen to Keith's new podcast, The Man in the Black Mask.

Well, yes.

Yeah. The first two episodes episodes are available to listen to.

Go back to your usual style.

I'm going to go back to that. First two episodes are available to listen to for free wherever you get your podcasts.

Friday night on an all new dateland.

She has put my family through hell to save herself. I felt like I was living in a nightmare.

The case against Karen Reid isn't over.

There's something else going on here. This is big.

It's big. An all-new dateland, Friday night at 9:8 Central, only on.