Transcript of Arrest in bank secretary's murder. A father's quest for justice. And wrongful death lawsuits 101. New

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Hey, good morning, good morning.

You're listening to the Dateline story meeting. Everybody's coming in now. Our editorial team is catching up on the latest breaking crime news. Is it the Jeep that he took to do it or the bike?

There may be a girlfriend he was trying to flee to Mexico with.

That bond hearing just got moved to May 11th, so just FYI on that.

Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander. It's May 7th, and here's what's on our docket. Emotions run high in an Arizona courtroom. 10 years after a father vows to find his daughter's killer, that father testifies in court.

I've kept my promise to her to be here every day, and I'm going to continue to do so to the end.

In Dateline Roundup, we've got new details in the prosecution's case against TikTok singer David, an update in the case of the two University of South Florida students who were reported missing 3 weeks ago, and a Utah nurse convicted of killing her friend with an overdose of insulin, learns her fate.

Megan is a wolf in sheep's clothing. She's evil, deceiving, manipulative, and controlling.

Plus, 30 years after the murder of rap superstar Tupac Shakur, his family is now filing a wrongful death lawsuit. NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos gets us up to speed on how a wrongful death lawsuit actually works.

This may not seem fair, but higher earners are going to warrant higher damages in wrongful death lawsuits.

But before all of that, we're off to northern New Jersey, where prosecutors say a breakthrough in a cold case has reignited questions about another mysterious death. The last time anyone saw Lisa McBride alive was in June of 1990, almost 36 years ago. The 27-year-old arrived back at her New Jersey home after a night out with friends. Neighbors heard her pull into the driveway, and then she vanished. Police fanned out looking for her. Her Story was even featured on an NBC TV show, Missing Reward. The following program describes cash rewards for the recovery of missing people and objects. 4 months after she went missing, a hunter found Lisa's remains in woods more than 20 miles from her home. It was a gruesome discovery that launched a 30-year murder investigation. Then last month, investigators made an announcement.

Nearly 36 years after the kidnapping and killing of a North Jersey woman, there is word tonight of an arrest in North Carolina.

The suspect, 54-year-old Robert Bob McCaffrey, a father and former Navy recruit. New Jersey prosecutors extradited him to face charges of murder, kidnapping, and burglary. But there's something else that you might want to know about McCaffrey. It turns out Lisa McBride is not the first woman he's been accused of killing. Dateline producer Marianne O'Donnell was in court last week as McCaffrey pleaded not guilty to the charges against him, and she's joined us now to tell us what she's learned. Marianne, thank you so much for being here with us.

Always a pleasure, Blaine.

So, Marian, first, just take us inside the courtroom. Was her family there? Just what was it like sitting in there?

Well, imagine this is a mountain hamlet, if you will. Very rural, very small. And this courtroom was the smallest I've ever been in. There were really only two rows of seating. And it was, I would say, packed.

This is, uh, State versus Robert McCaffrey Jr.

But you could certainly hear a pin drop as people waited for them to usher the defendant, Bob McCaffrey, into the courtroom. And I have to tell you, I was sitting next to a woman I later realized was the sister-in-law of the victim. And as he walked into the courtroom in his jail jumpsuit, she suddenly leaned forward, grasped the bench in front of her, and said, 36 years.

Mm.

Imagine a family holding its breath for more than 3 decades. That's what it sounded like, that relief.

Wow. So much emotion there in that courtroom. Well, Maryann, let's just go back to the beginning. First, just tell us who Lisa McBride was, uh, and walk us through what prosecutors say happened to her back in 1990.

Sure. Well, from many of the photos that I've seen, she was, I think, undeniably, A very pretty young woman. And I gotta say, she was pretty accomplished for a 27-year-old. She worked in a bank, uh, I believe as a secretary, but she purchased her own home in a lake community called Highland Lakes. And I have to tell you, I used to vacation there as a kid from the Bronx, and it was just idyllic. She goes out on a summer evening to New York with friends to watch a Clint Black concert. Hmm. The next day, she's supposed to show up for work at the bank. She doesn't. Her coworkers become concerned. They call her brother. Her brother comes over, and that's when we find out Lisa McBride is missing.

And when police get to her house, right, they see all sorts of signs of foul play. Cut telephone lines, missing bedsheets. I mean, that really just kind of let them know, "Okay, something has gone wrong here." Um, so, of course, investigators then, they're looking for any sign of her.

Sure. Now, you have to realize, she's missing through the summer months, and her— Her body has been left out in the elements when a hunter comes across these remains, presumably badly decomposed. Beneath her, her body, is a large rock, the prosecutor says. And not far, her retainer, which is so poignant. It suggests that she had just gone to bed. She had put her retainer in maybe for the evening, and then just all hell broke loose.

Oh, gosh, that's such a heartbreaking detail. Goodness.

It really is.

So, i— investigators, did they have any initial theories about what might have happened to her?

Well, let me tell you, they interviewed friends, they interviewed neighbors, they interviewed family, and they could not catch a single break.

And then around 2020, something changed. Walk us through that.

Yeah. Let me back up one year earlier. In 2019, a man calls the local police department. We only know him by his initials in court records as R.I. And he says, "Hey, I knew this guy, Bob McCaffrey. He told me in '95," this is 5 years after she's gone missing, "that he killed her." And he said the reason was 'cause she wouldn't go out with him. And he said he also always worried that he'd left something behind at the crime scene.

Do we know why this person sat on this information so long? If Bob McCaffrey allegedly told him this 5 years after her death, Why take so long to call police?

What's the phrase that now sounds so quaint? The $65,000 question or $65 million question? No one really knows. Yeah. But a year later, the Vernon Police and the State Police are interested in reopening the case and looking at DNA because DNA obviously has made great, great strides since then. And at the crime scene, there was a washcloth that clearly had DNA on it. And because of advancements, they were able to get a full male profile. And they run it through the FBI's CODIS system. And sure enough, they get a hit. Robert W. McCaffrey, living in North Carolina.

What do we know about him?

He lived in the area— this is called Sussex County, New Jersey. He's about 18 at the time, living with his parents nearby. And Then about 6 years after this all happens, the family moves to North Carolina, and he joins them. Now, we know this about him, that at some point, he was a Navy recruit and was quickly discharged because of impulse control problems. Mm-hmm.

So, Maryann, let's get to this other suspicious death now that McCaffrey has been linked to. It's the reason that his DNA was in the CODIS database to begin with, right?

Correct. So we know that he moves to North Carolina, but at some point in the years that follow, he gets married to someone named Marjorie Gayle. Everybody knows her as Gayle. The couple has 2 children, and she gets a job in South Carolina. But it's a contentious marriage. And in 2012, he said his wife confronted him one evening. He said that he went out for a walk, He then went to, I believe he said, their vacation home nearby, and he comes back and there's a note left for him, written presumably by his wife, Gail, saying, "That's it, I'm outta here, goodbye." But as the police start to investigate, they quickly determine that note was forged, that someone else wrote it, and Robert McCaffrey was lying to them. So they charge him with obstruction of justice.

And prosecutors didn't stop there, right, Maryann? I mean, even though Gayle's body has never been found, she was declared dead back in 2018, and that same year, police arrested McCaffrey, and prosecutors tried to charge him with Gayle's murder, but they hit a roadblock.

What happens is the grand jury has to indict him on the murder charge, but they refused to indict him. So, that leaves the obstruction charge, of which he is found guilty, and that is the reason His DNA goes into the CODIS system, and they are able, 8 years later, to get that hit on his DNA.

Wow. Now, it's important to note he has always denied having anything to do with Gail's death, but still, Bob McCaffrey served 4 years in prison on that obstruction charge, and then he's been out, living in North Carolina, which then, of course, brings us to today and his recent arrest. What has the defense had to say about all of this?

His defense, his public defender, really pushed back very hard on admitting any of this evidence. They said, "Listen, this DNA, it took them years and years. It's just too long. You know, we don't know what this guy said about him. Why is he suddenly coming out all these years later to say, 'Bob murdered Lisa'?

It doesn't wash." Well, a lot of eyes will be watching this pre-indictment hearing that's currently scheduled for May 18th. And we know that you'll be watching it too, Maryann. Thank you so much for being here.

You got it.

Coming up, 10 years after a young woman was murdered in her Arizona home, her family's search for her killer ends in a Maricopa County courtroom.

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A few days after Valentine's Day in 2015, a terrifying call came into 911 emergency dispatch in Scottsdale, Arizona.

Please wake up!

911, what's your emergency?

I have an emergency. Oh my God, I just came over to my girlfriend's house and she's not breathing. The 911 caller said that he'd found his girlfriend, a 31-year-old medical sales rep by the name of Alison Feldman, lying naked in a pool of blood in the hallway of her home. She was dead. Investigators, of course, dug into the case. They collected forensics, interviewed more than 100 people, and tested dozens of DNA samples. Still, the case went cold.

We just miss her a lot.

That never goes away.

Alison's dad, Harley, who lived hundreds of miles away in Minnesota, refused to give up. He moved down to Scottsdale to see if he could help solve Alison's murder.

You know, it's the task I have, the life I have, and I need to get a result for Alison.

He successfully lobbied state legislators to allow detectives to use a type of DNA analysis that's widely used now, but at the time of Alison's death, it had never been used in Arizona before. It's called familial DNA. And in 2018, police announced a breakthrough in Allison's case, the arrest of a suspect by the name of Ian Mitchum. He pleaded not guilty to charges of first-degree murder, sexual assault, and burglary. Last year, the case finally went to trial. Here with us now to bring us up to speed on what's happening in court is Dateline field producer Brittany Morris, who is actually sitting in the courthouse right now as we speak. Hi, Brittany.

Hey there, Blaine. Yes, I can confirm I am hiding in a corner of a courthouse hallway right now.

I think that that means you were absolutely bringing us the most up-to-date information, so we appreciate you. First, Brittany, just kind of remind us what happened to Alison. I mean, this is just a horrific story.

Alison Feldman was a 31-year-old, very successful medical sales rep. She lived in an upscale neighborhood by herself and did not have any known enemies. Investigators told me they walked into one of the most brutal crime scenes they had ever seen. Alison was sexually assaulted, violently beaten, and strangled to death.

Oh my gosh. So, Brittany, Brittany, according to investigators, the killer then tried to cover his tracks by pouring bleach over Alison's body and the crime scene. But even so, it didn't work. Basically, investigators were still able to find some crucial DNA evidence at the scene. What exactly did investigators find?

The police found the DNA of an unknown male in multiple locations inside of the house. Uh, investigators, they compared that unknown DNA to people who they knew had come into contact with Alison. None were a match.

So it sounds like investigators hit a wall, and And that's when Harley, Alison's dad, and investigators came up with this idea of using something called familial DNA. Walk us through exactly what this is, and why was it controversial?

So, at the time of Alison's death, only 11 states used this technique. And what it allows investigators to do is run a DNA sample through a database of known offenders to see if that unknown DNA profile could be biologically related to someone in the database. So, you don't get an exact match, but it gets you closer to your suspect.

Okay. So once investigators got the green light to run this test, what did they find?

The test revealed that the unknown male DNA found inside Alison's home was a relative of a known offender who was in prison for an unrelated offense. His name is Mark Mitchum. Investigators found out that Mark had a brother named Ian, and surprisingly, they already had some of Ian's blood on hand. Ian Mitchum had been arrested for a DUI about a month before Alison's murder. As part of that arrest, Mitchum gave officers consent to take a sample of his blood to test for alcohol and drugs. When investigators compared Ian's DNA to the DNA found at the crime scene, they said that they got a match.

So, Brittany, more than 10 years after Allison's murder, Ian Mitchum's trial finally began. We're back on the record in State versus Mitchum. Mitchum himself has kind of been a bit of a mystery. What did prosecutors want the jury to know about him?

So a little context and background, um, about Ian Mitchum. He grew up in a small and remote city in Arizona, and he was living a very comfortable life in the Valley with a successful career in mortgages until the housing crash of 2008. Mitchum struggled to pay his bills, according to evidence presented by the state, and started drinking excessively. And some of Mitchum's ex-girlfriends testified that he had a violent side.

He would initiate things like choking me with his hand. Um, and there was another time that that he used his belt, and I was very uncomfortable with that.

So the prosecution is painting a rather disturbing picture of Mitchum's character, but I'm curious, what evidence did they present that he actually knew Allison?

You know, Blaine, police and prosecutors couldn't come up with any connection between Ian and Allison. As far as we know, they were complete strangers.

I would imagine that that's going to be a big part of the defense's case.

They definitely emphasized the lack of a connection between Mitchum and Allison. And even though Ian Mitchum didn't testify himself, we did hear the recording of a police interview with him.

Do you know Allison?

I don't know who she is. Okay.

Other than the news.

Okay.

Never met her?

Never met her. Okay.

Never been in her house?

No.

And the defense really leaned into this idea that investigators overlooked other possible suspects.

They said that investigators had tunnel vision, and the defense actually had possible alternate suspects for the jury to consider.

That's right. So they told the jury about Allison's pharmacist. Two of his neighbors told a detective on the case case that he'd made some concerning comments.

They told him that their neighbor had made a statement about the homicide, and that statement was that I fucking killed her. Well, how did the prosecution handle that? My goodness.

So during the trial, those neighbors told the jurors they believed the pharmacist was just joking, and the pharmacist himself has repeatedly denied having any involvement in Allison's murder.

So Brittany, the jury finally got the case in April after listening to 5 months of testimony, it took them about 2 days of deliberations to come back with a verdict, and they found Mitchum guilty on all counts. What was the courtroom like when the verdict came down?

Oh, Blaine, it was really emotional. As the jurors were asked individually to affirm their verdict, one of them cried as they answered yes, and another said, and I'm quoting here, "Absolutely." You could tell the jurors, they have a lot of feelings about this case.

And still, even after all of that, their work was not done. You're still in the courtroom today. Tell us what's happening now.

The jurors still have to decide whether Mitchum spends life in prison or receives the death penalty.

And Brittany, this is almost like a mini trial, right? Where the prosecution and the defense get to call witnesses to testify about the impact of Alison's death and to give any reasons that Mitchum should be spared. So, just kind of walk us through, who have we heard from so far in this?

So far, we've heard some emotional testimony from Alison's loved ones. Alison's older sister, Kelly, told the jury she spoke to Alison on the phone the day that she died.

I replay that conversation more times than I can count, wishing I had stayed on the phone longer. Maybe we would have been on the phone together when her house was broken into, and I could have called the police. I will never know because I didn't call her again until the next day.

Oh, that's just such a terrible thing to carry with her.

Ugh, it's so sad.

And of course, Alison's dad, Harley Feldman. He spoke to the jury.

Although I'm very thankful to be finally in this courtroom, sitting through the trial is something no parent should ever have to endure. I promised Alison when she was murdered 11 years ago not to rest until we got to court. I've been in the courtroom every day except when the pictures that were shown that I don't want to remember were shown in the courtroom. So I've kept my promise to her to be here every day, and I will continue to do so to the end.

That was a deeply felt day in court and devastatingly was actually one of the last times that I saw Harley. He passed away very suddenly, 8 days after he made that statement to the jury.

Oh, no!

Yeah.

It's quite awful.

Oh, this poor family. They have been through so much. How are they doing in the midst of all this?

I had the honor of attending Harley's funeral virtually over the weekend, and his family shared some really beautiful anecdotes about the magnificent husband, father, and grandfather that Harley was. And on top of that, not only did he work tirelessly to solve Alison's murder, but he also He also helped countless other parents of murdered children through organizations that he led in Arizona and Minnesota.

This is so sad.

The world can be so cruel. But you know what's— what's so interesting is that his daughter, Kelly, did several interviews with the local media and said, "I am here to pick up my father's baton." Like, he helped families, and— and that work does not stop.

Oh, he sounds like a really special person. Um, well, the jury is expected to make a decision about Mitchum's fate by the end of May. So, of course, we will keep an eye out for that. That. And we are thinking about Allison and Harley's family. Britney, thank you for coming on.

Thank you, Blaine.

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. New details in the case against TikTok star David, and the Utah nurse convicted of killing her friend speaks at her sentencing. Plus, we'll take a look at wrongful death lawsuits. What are they and how do they actually work?

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Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline producer Marissa Meyer. Marissa, good to see you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you, Blaine. Thanks for having me back.

Well, first off, we are headed to Los Angeles Superior Court where a recent court filing is revealing new details in the prosecution's case against against singer David. As you know, David, whose real name is David Anthony Burke, has been charged with the murder of 14-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez. Her remains were found in his car. Marissa, just break down for us what's the latest in this case.

So last week, David, who has pleaded not guilty to the charges against him, appeared in court for a preliminary hearing. NBC 4 Los Angeles was there.

Sketches show David Burke back in court today, freshly shaved. He was shackled, wearing jail clothes, The judge refused a request from his defense lawyers to keep secret this prosecution preliminary hearing memo.

What exactly is in this memo that the defense wanted to keep secret?

It really clarifies what prosecutors say is the timeline of David's alleged relationship with Celeste. So according to the filing, David and Celeste met when she was just 11 years old in 2022, and they started a sexual relationship when she was 13. And the memo goes on to say that Celeste took various trips with David in 2024 to Las Vegas, to London, and to Texas. And they exchanged, um, sexually explicit texts as well.

This memo also lays out what the prosecution says is David's motive for killing Celeste. What are we learning about that?

Prosecutors are saying that they found text messages between Celeste and David the night before she likely died in April 2025, And these text messages suggest that she had threatened to disclose their relationship, and prosecutors say David killed Celeste essentially to silence her.

All of this is just getting progressively more disturbing. But Marissa, there are some rather upsetting details as well about how prosecutors say David allegedly killed Celeste.

Yes, very, very upsetting. Prosecutors say that David sent an Uber to pick up Celeste. And bring her to his home. And then when Celeste got there, the state believes that's when David stabbed her. The state believes that David dismembered her and put her in his Tesla, and he allegedly dumped the Tesla, um, in the Hollywood Hills where it was later impounded.

All of that is just unbelievable to listen to. According to the memo, there's no indication that David had any help from anyone to do all of this, right? That he he allegedly did all of this by himself?

No, as of right now, prosecutors aren't indicating that anyone else was— is involved in this crime.

Marissa, what's coming up next in this case?

So as you mentioned, David has pleaded not guilty on all the charges, and he's currently being held without bail.

Okay, of course, Marissa, that's something we are going to be following very closely. Well, next we're headed to Utah and the sentencing of Megan Sunwall. That's a former nurse convicted in March of killing her friend Casey Terry. First, just give us quick recap of this case.

So back in August 2024, law enforcement responded to a call in Highland, Utah, of a woman struggling to breathe. And when they arrived, they found Casey Terry— she was 38 at the time— they found her unresponsive in her bedroom. And Megan Sunwall, who was a very close friend of hers, was at her side. Casey had dangerously high blood sugar, and she was rushed to the hospital. That's where she passed away 3 days later. But in Casey's Casey's bedroom, investigators discovered a needle, and they started to suspect that Megan had given Casey a lethal dose of insulin. Um, and then Megan was later arrested for Casey's murder.

Wow.

What are prosecutors saying was the motive in this?

They argued that Megan thought Casey had terminal cancer, um, and that Megan thought she was the beneficiary of Casey's life insurance policy.

So the jury actually ended up convicting Megan of manslaughter in this case and obstruction of justice, but not first-degree murder.

Yeah, it's really telling because it seems to suggest that the jury didn't buy this idea that Megan had planned to kill Casey, but they— it seems like they believed she did play some role in Casey's death.

So on Monday, Megan was back in court. She was there for sentencing, and we heard from Casey's family. They had some very strong words for Megan.

Yeah, that's right. They did. Casey's older sister, Kaylee, asked the judge to really kind of throw the book at Megan.

Megan is a wolf in sheep's clothing. She's evil, deceiving, manipulative, and controlling. Megan's greed took away my little sister.

Well, the judge also allowed Megan to speak. Did she decide to speak?

She did decide to speak, and she admitted that she played a role in Casey's death.

Whether I believed that she was suffering so immensely, or not encouraging her and supporting her in committing suicide was morally wrong. And I'm so sorry. I know these are just words and they can't bring her back, but I am truly so sorry for the role that I played in her death.

So in the end, Megan was sentenced to 1 to 15 years for manslaughter and 0 to 5 years for obstruction of justice. And then finally, Marissa, we are back in Florida for a quick update. This is a case that our listeners heard about in last week's episode. Two University of South Florida students Zamile Limon and Nahida Bristy were reported missing last month. Zamile's roommate Hasham Abu Garbia has been charged with the pair's murders. Marissa, just remind us, what do we know about this case?

Well, Zamile and Nahida were both 27-year-old doctoral students from Bangladesh, and they were last seen on April 16th. And then about a week later, Zamile's body was found near a bridge in Tampa, and his roommate was arrested and charged with Zamile's murder and Nahida's, even though her body at that point hadn't been found.

Where do things stand now? What's the latest in this case?

So two kayakers were out fishing and they found another body near the bridge. Now it has been positively identified as Deheda.

Oh gosh. Well, Marissa, of course, a very disturbing case, and we know that you're going to stay on top of all of it. Thanks so much for being here with us this week.

Thank you so much, Blaine.

For our final story this week, we are headed not to criminal court but to civil court to take a closer look at wrongful death lawsuits. Just last week, the family of rapper Tupac Shakur filed a wrongful death lawsuit against a man by the name of Duane 'Keefe D' Davis, accusing him of conspiring to murder the rapper back in 1996. Davis, who's already behind bars awaiting trial on criminal charges of murder, to which he's pleaded not guilty, has yet to respond to this civil lawsuit. But it reminded us about some other big-name cases that have ended up in civil court. Take Karen Reed, of course, who was acquitted last year in criminal court of murdering her Boston police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe. Well, she's now battling the O'Keefe family in civil court after they filed a wrongful death lawsuit against her. Now, she has denied all of their allegations and filed suits of her own. Or perhaps one of the most famous cases of all: O.J. Simpson, the football player accused of murdering his ex-wife Nicole Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman. Less than 2 years after he was acquitted of their murders in criminal court, a jury in civil court ordered O.J. to pay more than $30 million in damages.

So what exactly is a wrongful death lawsuit? Well, NBC News legal analyst Danny Cervallos is with us now to break it all down. Danny, thanks so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Blaine.

Of course. So let's just start off with the basics. Explain to us, what is a wrongful death lawsuit?

Sure. A wrongful death is a cause of action that is created when somebody dies, and it might be through negligence or it might be through a criminal act, a homicide, but it is a cause of action for the survivors. You're really sort of suing for the lost companionship, maybe the lost support that that person would have provided. And I'm so glad you mentioned the O.J. Simpson criminal and civil case, because wrongful death is a civil action. You have a difference in the burden of proof. Prove. In a criminal case, every element must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the highest standard in the law. But when it comes to wrongful death, that is a civil lawsuit, so you only need to prove to a preponderance, more likely than not. That is why O.J. Simpson could be acquitted of murder but found liable for the killing of his victims.

Hmm, interesting. So talk to me about that. At what point are wrongful death suits usually filed?

Generally as a Strategic plan. If you're a civil attorney and you're going to file a wrongful death action and you have a pending criminal case, it's a tactical wise choice to wait until the outcome of the criminal case, acquittal or conviction, and then sort of scoop up that evidence that was revealed in the criminal case and repurpose it in your civil case against the wrongdoer.

And do wrongful death suits usually go to trial in a civil court, or are they more likely to be settled outside court.

Yeah, the vast majority of all civil cases settle before trial. I handle personal injury litigation, and I have to tell you, Blaine, every personal injury lawyer and defense attorney operates under a kind of professional delusion. And by that I mean we have to prepare every case as if it is going to trial, when maybe 5% of civil cases go to trial. It is rarer for cases in the civil context to go to trial than in criminal cases.

You know, let's talk about dollar amount. I mean, because at the end of the day, that's typically what it comes down to, right? How is it decided what dollar amount? For instance, Karen Reed's civil suit, the family's asking for thousands, while O.J. Simpson's suit, the family's asked for millions of dollars there.

Yeah, the world of figuring out damages is a process that is begun by juries at trial. And they're laypersons. They're not economists. And so you get some wild disparities in dollar amounts awarded. Damages are tied closely to the companionship and the support the deceased person would have provided. Unfortunately, this may not seem fair, but higher earners are going to warrant higher damages in wrongful death lawsuits. And of course, now, Blaine, we're talking about trying to prove to a jury what somebody would have provided had they survived, when in reality you don't know. That person could have lost their job the next day or somehow been unable to provide for their family. So there is a bit of legal fiction that goes on on, but ultimately you're going to put a dollar amount on that companionship as well as medical funeral expenses. And there's always the potential for punitive damages if you have intentional or reckless conduct.

I mean, we talk about those damages. What happens if the defendant is found liable but doesn't have the money to pay?

Well, that is a huge problem, and that's why most of the time as a personal injury or plaintiff's attorney, you're looking for insurance policies. It is rare it's rarely worth your time to go after an individual, especially for an intentional tort, because intentional acts like assault are usually not covered by insurance. And the reality is this, Blaine, it is really only the richest of the rich who have enough liquid cash available to pay judgments. Things like marital homes, property, those are tied up in legal intricacies that lawyers like me just are not interested in unraveling.

You know, I, I have to ask this. There's this delicate balance, right? Let's say there haven't been criminal charges brought and they're found liable in a wrongful death lawsuit, could that decision have an impact on potential criminal charges?

It could, in theory. Law enforcement is like anybody else. They read the paper, they watch the news, and sometimes they're inspired by something they see or something that's filed in court. So it is possible. But the reality is this: it's not that common. Generally speaking, if a wrongful death lawsuit's been filed and there wasn't a preceding criminal case, it usually means prosecutors had a chance to file on it and they decided to pass for whatever reason, which by the way happens all the time.

This was a fascinating conversation as always, Danny. I certainly learned a lot. I appreciate you being on with us today.

Thank you, Blaine.

And that's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. If you'd like ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, just subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday, Josh has a brand new episode. He's diving into the murder of 29-year-old FedEx employee Morgan Fox, a single mom who was building a good life for herself until someone in her orbit became fixated on her, and that fixation turned deadly. Josh has an exclusive interview with the man right at the center of it all. Plus, he sits down with those who were closest to Morgan.

I saw a post on Morgan's wall from another girl that says, I'm sorry this happened to you. "I'm sorry he couldn't control his obsession with you like he could with me." And I remember screenshotting this post and calling my stepmom and like, "You need to call this girl.

This girl knows something." It's a fascinating and heartbreaking story that you don't want to miss. Watch Breaking Point this Friday at 9/8c on NBC, or you can stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline: True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins Carolyn Casey, and Kiani Reid. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kuriloff. Veronica Maseca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Have a fabulous Thursday, everybody. Friday night on an all-new Dateline, it was a workplace obsession.

The chills it sent down my body was just unreal.

That went way too far. HR issues don't usually lead to somebody getting killed. It wasn't just one person, it was a couple of people that were rubbed the wrong way.

I think it It is a true definition of, if I can't have her, nobody can.

An all-new Dateline, Friday night at 9/8c, only on NBC.