Transcript of A murder suspect's brother under scrutiny. Breakthrough in parents' quest for answers. And should jurors question witnesses?

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It's the start of another work day for the Dateline team here at 30 Rockefeller Center. Sorry, when's the truck? Now. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country, swapping tips and story ideas. The clock starts ticking on that April second. This just broke yesterday, but Andrea flagged it.

Is he charged in the US?

Or he's charged in Spain?

Yes. Okay. Welcome to Dateland True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's February 13th, and here's what's on our docket. In Philadelphia, after a first-grade teacher died under mysterious circumstances, her parents launched a 14-year quest for answers. Last week, they got big news.

Her mother looked me in the eye and said, We haven't gone away. We're not going away.

In Dateline Roundup, there's news from a Florida jail about Donna Adelson, the grandma accused of masterminding a plot to murder her son-in-law, FSU law professor Dan Markel. And more from the retrial of the Hawaii man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist, ex-lover.

He described Eric as an easygoing guy, that murdering someone would be extremely out of character.

Plus, for the first time on the podcast, we're joined by a judge. He tells us why he thinks jurors should be allowed to ask questions during a trial.

There are questions that people from outside the system would be curious about. How does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?

But before all that, new developments in an international murder investigation. After a Florida woman went missing in Spain, her husband was arrested and accused of killing her. Now, the FBI is looking at his family to see if they played a role. It's been a year since anybody has heard from Anna Kinesovich, and a year since a man wearing a motorcycle helmet was caught on video spray painting over the lens of a security camera in her Madrid apartment building. Federal prosecutors say that mystery man was Anna's husband, David Kinesovich. In May, David was arrested and charged with Anna's kidnapping. Six months after that, the charges were upgraded. Nbc 6, South Florida WTVJ, covered the news. This takes it to a whole new level, this federal indictment accusing him of murdering his wife. If, in fact, he were convicted of that, he could potentially face the death penalty. Anna had moved from Fort Lauderdale to Spain while she and David were separating. Prosecutors say David tracked her down there and killed her, but her body has not been found. Search efforts for Anna Maria in Europe have turned up empty. His lawyer says he's not guilty, and there's no proof Anna is even dead.

But investigators in this country have been busy, too. Last week, we got our first hint that David may not be the only person in his family under scrutiny. Here to tell us more about what seems to be a widening investigation is Dateline associate producer Alex LeRay.

Hey, Alex. Hey, Andrea.

Let's start at the beginning. Remind us of the FBI and the prosecutor's theory of this crime. Sure.

Anna and David were allegedly going through a contentious divorce. They had built a successful business together over the course of their marriage, but her family has said that he didn't want to split their assets 50/50. In December 2023, she moves to Madrid, Spain, in search of a fresh start. In early February 2024, her friends got text messages that didn't exactly sound like her, and she misses a dinner with her friends. When Spanish authorities did a welfare check, they found no one in her apartment, but they did turn up surveillance footage of a man who, according to prosecutors, looks a lot like David Knazevich buying duct tape and spray paint at a hardware store close to Anna's apartment, and hauling what appears to be a suitcase out of her building. They learned he'd rented a car in Serbia, put thousands of miles on it, changed the license plates, and returned it with newly-tinted windows.

David isn't disputing that he was in Europe, but he says that there's a really good reason why he was there.

Yeah. He says he was in Serbia visiting his mom, who is aging and needed his help. He stayed out there for some time. In May, when he came back to Miami, he was arrested at the airport for Anna's kidnapping.

Then those charges were upgraded to murder.

Correct, yeah. Sources tell me that they upgraded the charges because there was proof that Anna had a drastic change of life pattern, meaning to them that she has passed away. Movement on her Google and Spotify accounts abruptly stopped, as did the contact with her family and friends.

We should say that David has pleaded not guilty. Let's get into the latest development. Who is the other member of David's family who is now in the crosshairs of investigators?

We've learned that the Department of Home Mamp Security has seized the laptop and phone of David's brother, whose name is Ugas How is he wrapped up in this now?

What are they alleging?

They're alleging in a search warrant they filed last month that they're looking at Ugesa Knazevich for aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact, wire and bank fraud, and destruction of records. The warrant was unsealed by a judge in Miami last week. What's a surprise is we know that the FBI spoke to him last March, but he said he was estranged from David. In the warrant, it says he told them he only spoke to David because he found out from Anna's brother that she was missing. Ugeza says that he had to ask his mother for David's phone number.

But according to the FBI, David's brother was the first person David called when he was arrested in May, correct?

Right. The FBI is saying since then, the brothers have been in touch pretty often. The FBI says they have probable calls that his phone and laptop have evidence that Ugeza has pretended to be David to get Apple to lock David's phone so investigators couldn't open it. Then, most recently, David's brother flew to Spain on vacation with his family. Last month, he went to Sevilla, which is about a three-and-a-half hour train trip from Madrid, which is where Ana disappeared. They say that they don't know where he was for two days in January. They're investigating what he's been doing electronically, but also maybe physically in an area where Spanish authorities had conducted searches for Ana.

Do we know if the FBI was able to get anything off of David's brother's phone and laptop?

We don't know what the FBI has been able to look at, if anything at all. The defense challenged the seizure of the devices, writing in a motion that Ugesa is a part of the Knazovitch defense team and that the target devices contain attorney client communications and attorney work product. Ugesa is not a lawyer, but because of that motion, prosecutors say they hadn't extracted any data from the devices.

The FBI also seems to be investigating payments that David's brother has made to inmates in the federal prison where David is being held.

What's that all about? Yeah. The FBI is alleging that David needs money to buy burner phones so that he can communicate with his brother without the calls being recorded.

Has David's brother said anything about these allegations? He hasn't been arrested or charged, but has he responded publicly at all?

No, not that I know of. He was in attendance, though, at the hearing in Miami on February third, where this warrant was unsealed.

So this warrant not only mentions David's brother, but another family member of David's, and we're talking about his mom.

Yes. Neither David's brother or mother have been arrested or charged with anything. But in the warrant, the FBI agent writes, law enforcement concludes that Ugeza and his mother disposed of evidence in this case and used Facebook to discuss doing so. So two things. After David was arrested in May after he flew back from Serbia, his landlord sent his belongings to his parents. That included his laptop. But the FBI didn't know about that until June. When they found out, they searched his parents house, and they found Facebook messages between Ugesa and his mom. A couple of times, he said, Can you turn on his computer? And his mom said, Yes, right away. Then a bit later, Ugesa messages his mom, I'm done. The computer is empty. The FBI agent also writes, Software and programs are available that allow an individual to remote wipe or delete all stored data.

Alex, what is next in this case?

We will just have to wait and see if there are any more arrests.

Okay. In the meantime, Anna's family filed a wrongful death lawsuit using some of this information that became public last week.

Yes, they did. They are suing both David and his brother, saying that there are claims for wrongful death, fraudulent transfers, conspiracy, interference, and the tort of outrage stemming from David's year-long refusal to release Anna's body for burial.

All right, Alex, thank you for bringing us the latest on this.

Thanks, Andrea.

Coming up in Philadelphia, a new chapter in a family's 14-year quest for truth about their daughter's mysterious death.

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On January 26, 2011, a nor Easter hit Philadelphia. Schools closed, and 27-year-old first-grade teacher, Ellen Greenberg, went home early to the apartment she shared with her fiancé. Just a few hours later, she was found dead with a knife four inches deep in her chest. Her parents, Josh and Sandy, were devastated.

There's a hole in our life. Our life is not complete.

For more than a decade, Ellen's parents have waged a battle to find out the truth about what happened the night their daughter died, even filing two lawsuits against the city of Philadelphia. All that came to an abrupt halt last week. Major development today in a couple's fight for answers 14 years after their daughter's death. Brian Sheehan, a reporter at NBC10 WCAU in Philadelphia, has been following this story for years. He joins us now to tell us more. Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me.

Why don't you just start by telling us a little bit about Ellen Greenberg? Who was she? What was she like? What have you learned?

Ellen was the only child of Josh and Sandy Greenberg. She was beloved by her students, by her friends. Her parents describe her as someone who just had a bright, bubbly personality, someone of a short statue, but as cliché as it is, she walked into a room and people noticed her.

Okay, let's fast forward now to the evening Ellen was found dead. We know from the investigation report that her fiancé, Sam Goldberg, was reportedly at the gym, and when he came home, the door was bolted shut from the inside. What happened next?

So he claims that he starts banging on the door. He's yelling to her. He then sent her a series of text messages telling her to open up the door. Then at some point, he breaks down the door, goes into the apartment, and he sees Ellen is on the kitchen floor She's unresponsive at that point.

So he calls 911?

He calls 911, and the 911 operator says, Does she have a pulse? And he goes over. It's at that point that he tells the 911 operator that he sees a knife in her chest.

So this is not just one stab wound we're talking about. There are 20, including 10 to her head and her neck. Brian, she had some bruising as well? She did.

When the medical examiner reviewed her body after her death, he did note that there were bruising on her body in various stages of healing.

The medical examiner initially They ruled the manner of death was homicide, but that all changed a few weeks later. What happened?

Reportedly, the Philadelphia Police Department met with members of the district Attorney's office and the medical examiner in Philadelphia. After this meeting, the manner of death was switched from a homicide to a suicide. There were no signs of forced entry. There was no proof that they said that there was a homicide that took place.

Also the knife only showed Ellen's DNA? Correct. Was there any type of note in the apartment or something she had written to a family member or friend that she was distraught or depressed or some type of indication? No.

There were questions that came up afterwards about Ellen's state of mind in the weeks leading up to her death. In fact, she had spoken to her parents several weeks prior saying that she was anxious. Her parents said her up several weeks prior with a psychiatrist who noted that Ellen was dealing with anxiety. But in her notes, she actually said that she's not suicidal.

What about her fiancé's story? Did the police look into that? He says he's at the gym when this is happening, let the door is bolted shut. Did they find anything out with that?

There wasn't much investigation. The security cameras show that he is down at the gym. There's no camera on the floor that we have seen of their apartment showing the actions outside of the apartment. There are text messages. They have the text messages, and they have the 911 call.

The family obviously has a very strong conviction that this was not suicide. They essentially began their own investigation to this, consulting many experts over the years. What did they find?

A lot of the experts that reviewed this concluded there was no way that Ellen could have stabbed herself that many times. In fact, during a deposition, When there is a forensic pathologist who reviewed Ellen's spinal tissue. In her deposition, she states that one of the stab wounds did not have any hemorrhaging. No hemorrhaging means no pulse, which means Ellen could not have stabbed herself and could not have administered that wound because she was already dead.

Josh and Sandy Greenberg ultimately filed two civil lawsuits against Philadelphia, the city. One One sought to change the manner of death, the other sought damages for intentional infliction of emotional damages by city employees who conducted the investigation. This legal battle was going on for more than five years. Last week, on the eve of this civil trial, there was a big development in the case. Yes.

Dr. Marlon Osborne, who is the medical examiner who originally ruled Ellen's death a homicide and then switched it to suicide. Dr. Osborne, on Friday night, two days before they were scheduled to go to trial, he writes in a legal verification that Ellen's manner of death should be ruled something other than suicide.

The city and the Greenbergs also, they reached a settlement of some sort?

I was there in court, and they were about to begin jury selection. Both sides, the attorneys for the city and the Greenberg's attorneys, they were going back and We saw them walking down the hallway multiple times that morning, and they reached an agreement that the medical examiner in Philadelphia will review Ellen's manner of death.

Is this medical examiner who's reviewing the manner of death? Is this a different medical examiner or the same one?

To our knowledge, it is going to be a different one because Dr. Marlin Osborne, the original medical examiner, he no longer practices in Pennsylvania. It is going to be an independent investigation, a new investigation with the medical examiner's office in Philadelphia.

What is happening then with the police? Is this investigation open? Are there plans to open it?

That's a good question. If the medical examiner's office comes back and says, We determine Ellen's matter of death to be either undetermined or homicide, that will most likely start an investigation.

The Greenberg spoke to NBC10 W CAU, Philadelphia, after the agreement. I hope today we made Ellen proud of us.

Her father is a very stoic man, and he broke down. They were walking through the Halls of Philadelphia City Hall with her picture, and her mom says, Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. She did not kill herself. She turned around to her husband, Josh, showed him the picture, and he stopped. He put his head down, and he just started to sob. They believe that they will see the day that Ellen gets justice.

Thank you so much, Brian.

Thank you. I appreciate it. It was a pleasure.

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We've got an update from Hawaii as the defense team for Eric Thompson, the man accused of murder his wife's ex-lover makes its case. And Donna Adelson's latest court filing, the Florida matriarch accused of mastermining a hit for hire, wants out of jail. Plus, we've seen it in a few cases this year. Jury's asking questions during murder trials. Does it work? We've got a judge to give us his take.

Now they had the final answer. Or did they? Nothing has more suspended than a Dateland mystery, and no one wants to wait to find out what happens next. That's why everyone needs Dateland Premium, where listening is always ad-free. You get the whole story and nothing but the story. Or do you? Yes, actually. You do. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelandpremium. Com. Hey, guys, Willy Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast.

On this week's episode, I get together with the one and only Will Farrell to talk about his new movie with Reese Witherspoon, and a 30-year career of classic movies and memorable quotes from one of the funiest people on the planet. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's Roundup is Dateline associate producer, Kelly Moody. Hey, Kelly.

Hi, Andrea. How are you?

Good. You have the assignment of the year this winter. You're in Hawaii to cover a case that we talked about a few weeks ago on the podcast. We're talking about Eric Thompson. He is on trial for the second time for the murder of his wife's former lover in 2022. His first trial ended in a hung jury. Kelly, first, just remind us about this case.

Eric Thompson is accused of fatal shooting his wife's lover, who was an acupuncturist by the name of John Takahara. His wife, Joyce Thompson, received fertility care from Takahara.

It is now week four in the trial, and we are in the defense portion. They trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case.

Yeah, definitely. From an investigation standpoint, there were no eyewitness to the shooting. The murder weapon wasn't ever found, and they're claiming that investigators didn't thoroughly search the area. They're also claiming that there's no electronic data, no GPS tracking data, no cell phone data, tying Thompson to the area at all.

The defense also called Eric Thompson's brother Michael to give character testimony. What did he have to say about his brother.

So he described Eric as an easygoing guy. I've never seen him yell, swear, or no physical, anything with Joyce. Police. That murdering someone would be extremely out of character.

He doesn't let things affect him very much.

Then when asked about how his brother Eric behaved around the time of Takahara's murder, he said there really wasn't any change to make note of.

He was, I guess, normal. Nothing to have me suspect anything. Eric has pleaded not guilty. What can we expect from the trial in the coming days?

In Eric Thompson's first trial, he did take the stand in his defense, so we're waiting to see if he'll do the same this time. Of course, his wife, Joyce, is still by his side and has been there every single day sitting behind him.

Okay, we'll be sure to check back in on and see what the jury decides. Up next, a defendant in a double homicide out of Kansas. This is not her first murder trial or her second. Kelly, bring us up to speed on Dana Chandler and her third murder trial in two decades.

Yeah. Dana Chandler stands accused of the 2002 murders of her ex-husband, Mike Cisco, and his fiancé, Karen Harkness. Dana Chandler and her ex-husband had a pretty rocky relationship in the '90s. Their divorce took four years to be processed. Mike Cisco gained complete custody of the couple's two kids, and Dana Chandler had to pay child support. Prosecutors claim Chandler became jealous, full of rage, obsessed with her ex-husband, ultimately leading her to commit both murders. Dana Chandler went on trial for the murders, was found guilty, sentenced to life in prison in 2012. But then in 2018, the verdict was overturned because of prosecutorial miscontact. She was retired in 2022, but that trial ended with a hung jury. Chandler has been out on bond ever since.

So her third murder trial began last Friday. The big news out of the courtroom last week is that Chandler is representing herself.

You will hear testimony that I have maintained my innocence throughout this proceeding.

We've learned that the court appointed standby counsel for Yeah.

So even though Chandler waived her right to an attorney, a court order issued last Friday ensured that Chandler would at least have access to an attorney if she wants it.

Finally, we are off to Florida, where Donna Adelson Adelson, defense attorneys are pushing for her release as she awaits her murder trial. She is the 75-year-old family matriarch and fifth person charged in the murder for higher plot of her former son-in-law, law professor Dan Markel. Now, she's in protective custody, right, Kelly?

Yeah, that's right. She claims that she's been attacked by other inmates. In a motion to be released on bond, Adelson claims an inmate actually shoved her into a bunk. Then when asked why she attacked her, the inmate lied because you're a killer, you're an expletive killer.

Her defense attorneys say, should Vawn be set, she's not a flight risk. But remember, this is the woman who was arrested as she was about to board a one-way flight to Vietnam. Although her lawyer argues she was going on vacation and there was no warrant for her arrest at the time. We can expect a ruling on this motion on February 27th. When, Kelly, can we expect her trial to begin?

Her trial is currently still set to start in June of 2025.

Okay, so many cases to watch. Thanks, Kelly, for joining us this week. Enjoy Hawaii.

Thank you. Well done.

Before I introduce my next guest, take a listen to this.

Did Jason Chen have any observable cuts or injuries on his body? Were you determine where a murder occurred? Were you able to identify the driver of the preus that was just investigated further?

That is the voice of Judge Lloyd Patterson reading out juror questions to witnesses at the trial of Jason Chen. Chen was convicted last month of murdering his 22-year-old girlfriend, Jasmine Pace. The Jason Chen trial wasn't the first time we've come across jurors asking questions of witnesses in the courtroom this year. Our team noticed it at the trial of Richard Allen, the man convicted of murdering two schoolgirls in Delphi, Indiana. Once the witness has testified, the judge turns to the jurors and say, Do you have any questions, and they're good questions. More recently, jurors had lots to say in San Francisco, where Nema Momene was convicted of fatally stabbing Cashapp co founder, Bob Lee. There was quite a large stack of questions from jury members to Nema. This made us wonder Why do we hear jurors asking questions in some trials but not others? And what are the pros and the cons? We asked Judge Patterson to come on the podcast and share with us what he's seen in the courtroom when juries are given the freedom to ask what's on their mind. Hi, Judge. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Thank you, Andrea. Good to be here.

As we mentioned, you allowed the juror questions in the Jason Chen trial. But most of the cases we cover don't involve jurors asking questions. Why do we see it sometimes and sometimes not?

It's a state issue. Overwhelmingly, the majority of states do allow it. 34 states and the federal system allow it. Minnesota, Texas, and Nebraska clearly have put down decisions that do not allow jurors to ask questions.

Even though questions are allowed in a lot of states, a lot of judges won't use that tool. Is it always the judge that decides?

Yes, it is. The judge is the one that makes the So take us inside the courtroom where it is allowed.

How does it work?

What happens is the trial progresses where one side calls a witness and the other side gets to cross-examine that witness. At that point, I will ask the jurors if they have any questions for that particular witness. They write the questions down, they pass them to the bailiff. The questions come to the bench where the lawyers will talk about whether the question or should not be asked. If it's a question that clearly cannot be asked, don't ask it. They ask for a defendant's prior record, and it's not relevant. I just want to ask the question. If they ask if it was raining that day or if any other blood was found in any other spot then was testified to. Then I'll ask the question. The witness will face the jury when answering. Then finally, the lawyers will have the chance to redirect or recross if they feel they need to develop the testimony any further to clarify the witnesses' answers for the jurors.

What would you say are the biggest benefits to allowing jurors to ask questions?

There's many of them. It keeps jurors more engaged in the process. I mean, think about sitting in a classroom where you can't ask questions. If the students can't ask questions, how much of that are they really learning? As far as the actual significant weighty reasons, I think that it's a good idea to let jurors ask questions. They make more informed decisions.

I can't help but feel like they're channeling their inner dateland correspondent when they come up with these questions.

Absolutely. They're questions that people from outside the system would be curious about, how does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?

What are the criticisms of asking questions as you go along? Because because there are places where this is not allowed. Why not?

The concerns that have been communicated to me from lawyers that I do respect talk about how they're concerned that the ability for jurors to ask questions may lessen the state's burden that, say, a prosecutor forgets to ask a question or ask in a certain way, then a juror can come back and ask a question. Another one that came up is that if a juror's question isn't asked, it might cause the juror to speculate about the withheld answer or resent their question not being asked. Maybe they think the lawyers are hiding something.

Judge, is it true that it can reduce hung juries?

I don't think so. Hung juries are possible if the jury does not have enough information for sure. Gaps in the proof, we'll call it. Allowing juries to ask questions doesn't change the proof. If the gaps were there before, they're still there at all.

Okay, Judge Patterson, this has been fascinating. Thank you for giving us your insight.

Thank you, Andrea.

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Next week, I'll be off, but Blaine Alexander will be here to host, and she has a very special guest, Keith Morison. He'll be talking about his brand new podcast series, murder in the Moon sunlight. A family was torn apart when a couple was shot to death in their quiet farm house on America's Great Plains. Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents house taped off, the farm taped off by that yellow tape. What followed was a Link the investigation that included four suspects, spanned three states, and came down to one single shiny clue. Subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or datelinepremium. Com to hear the first two episodes now, or listen to the first two episodes free on Monday, February 17th. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Craig Melvin has an all-new two-hour episode. Susan Smith made headlines 30 years ago when she let her car roll into a South Carolina Lake, drowning her two young sons who were strapped inside. In a revealing and rare interview, Susan's ex-husband, David Smith, sits down with Craig to talk about his heartbreak and his fight to keep her behind bars.

Would you have been better off had the state executed her?

Wow.

For myself, yes, because I wouldn't have to be dealing with what's coming up now in the future. Watch Return to the Lake, airing this Friday at 9: 8 Central on NBC, or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Amens, and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadeer. Veronica Mzezeca is our digital producer. Rick Juan is our sound designer. Original music by Jessie McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateland. All right. Thanks very much, everyone. Bye.

A true crime story never really ends. Even when a case is closed, the journey for those left behind is just beginning.

Since our Dateland story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

I had no other option. I had to do something.

Catch up with families, friends, and investigators on our bonus series, After the Verdict. Ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage. It does just change your life, but speaking up for these issues helps me keep going. To listen to After the Verdict, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at datelinepremium. Com.