Transcript of The Pennsylvania Voters Who May Decide the Race

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This is it. We're releasing this the day before election day. My team and I are out on the road in this home stretch, hitting five swing states in five days.

You want to put your laptop there and then we can see?

Okay.

I'm recording this from a hotel room in Tucson. I got my water. Water? Here.

Take one of my $10 waters.

But with this episode, We're bringing you back full circle. We started this podcast series in Pennsylvania, back in the early summer. It was, of course, a very different race back then. But the election could still come down to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and its 19 electoral votes, the biggest prize of the seven swing states. We're going to hear from three voters here, and they have a lot in common. They're white. They're all older Gen X or boomers. They all live in the suburban or ex-urban counties right around Philadelphia, the all-important counties that will decide who wins Pennsylvania and perhaps decide who wins the White House. And they're all Republicans. All of them voted for Nikki Haley in the Pennsylvania primary long after she was gone from the race. And that makes them the voters that both candidates would love to win over.

The scary part is, I'm not voting for a candidate. I'm voting against a candidate.

Sometimes you have to say, American first, conservative second, Republican third.

It won't be until election day that I bring my mail-in ballot to the courthouse.

Where these three have come down and how they're feeling about the outcome of the race offers us a remarkable 11th-hour window on what is going down as the strangest, most complicated, hard to call presidential race of the 10 I have covered. I'm John King, and this is all over the map.

Where are we? Tell me about this place.

We are on Pennsylvania State gameland.

We're starting with Michael Pacy. He works in a meat processing plant in Bucks County.

As you can probably hear there's a rifle range and a gun range down below us.

If you've been with us since the beginning of this series, you'll remember Michael. He's the first voter you heard from. And his mind was made up a long time ago. He knew from the beginning, even though he's a Republican, not only would he never cast a ballot for Donald Trump, he planned to vote Democratic this time around. And that didn't change when the Democratic ticket did.

We're at the end. What's your sense of what's happening here? The vice president is trying to reach out to more people like you who are Republican by DNA but don't like Trump. Do you think she's having any luck?

I don't. I think that the people that are going to see her and the people that are going to see Trump are the people who are already voting for those two. I don't think it's swinging things one way or the other. I think it's going to be really close. I just don't understand how anyone can still be considering Trump after everything he said in the last couple of weeks, yet it doesn't move the needle one way or the other. If you're voting for Trump, you're voting for Trump.

In terms of your feeling, having been here through the 2016 experience where Trump didn't win the suburbs, but he did better than he did against Biden, does this feel more like 2016 or more like 2020 or just completely different?

I I feel that it's more like 2020, where people have like, We know what we're going to get with him. And most people say, We know what we're getting with her, but we really don't. She's a completely different person. But I think the people who are saying, This is what Trump is. This is what we're going to get. They've already made the decision. They're just like I am, there's no way we're going to vote for him.

You're going to vote for her, but do you know what you're getting?

No, I don't. And that's the scary part is I'm not voting I'm not voting for a candidate. I'm not voting for a policy. I'm voting against a candidate and policies, and not even all the policies. Just the unstableness of some of the things he says, they're truly scary.

You want your party back. What do you see as the likelihood of getting it back?

So if Trump loses, then I think that the Republicans will start coming back to what they were because they don't have that radical right side. They don't have the craziness and the instability. I think you have people at the top of the Republican Party who are going to come back and say, Okay, we saw this populist government. It didn't work for us. We lost in 2022, now we lost in 2024. We need to go back to what we were doing because we were at least winning then.

But if he loses, do you expect him to concede that he lost? No.

That's just not going to happen. He's never going to concede that he loses anything. The last election, he lost by seven million votes, and he's like, No, I didn't. So this one, I think, is going to be a lot closer than that. And if he loses, I don't see how he says, Yeah, I lost this one.

And then what happens if she wins and you voted for her? Is it, Okay, I'm going to give her a chance and I'm a Harris supporter, or is it, I did something that was very important to me on principle, and now I'm going to get about the business of trying to convince the Republican Party to get its act together?

See, I'm not so much us versus them. I look at it, we need to do what's best for America and what's best for us worldwide. So if she's going to support Ukraine, I'm all in. If she's not going to support Israel, I'm not all in. Do you know what I mean? For me, it's what's best for the country. I really don't care who's in charge. It's whatever is going to move the country forward and keep us as the number one country in the world.

That's what I support. What do you think happens to you, if anything, if he wins?

It's funny. Someone asked me that last week because of being on here and how I feel about things. And people were like, well, aren't you worried? And I'm like, in the back of your mind, you worry about those things. I think the biggest thing people will be like, I told you so. I told you so. And I can live with that. My hope is that he loses and he just fades into the annals of hip history, and we move on, and we get back to doing what Americans are supposed to be doing.

But you don't feel threatened in any way.

Not now. That could change. Come see me at the end of January if he wins, and we'll see how things are looking at.

Well, it's nice to see you again.

Good to see you, John. All right.

Everybody good?

Joan London is a lawyer from the Philly suburbs. She lives in Berks County now. She's a proud Reagan Republican, fiscally conservative, believes in protecting American interests overseas. Like Michael, she knew from the beginning she could not vote for Trump. But until a few weeks ago, she wasn't planning to vote for Harris.

After the debate, you made a pretty big decision. Tell me why.

What happened was this. I was at the point where I had even decided for whom I was going to protest vote. It was going to be a fellow Pennsylvania Senator Toomey. I figured that would be a perfect protest vote. But then I was watching the debate, and there was the usual Trump hyperbole and millions and millions and billions and billions short on specifics. Then, of course, there was him again spreading the rumor about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. But that wasn't the last straw. It was close. But the last straw was where he said that we have to have a negotiated settlement in the Ukraine because President Putin has nuclear weapons, and we could have World War III if we don't. For someone who claims to be a conservative to say that was, in my opinion, outrageous. It's appeasement. It's dangerous. If we're not required to put up with individual walking into our country illegally, and I don't believe that we are required to tolerate people walking into our country illegally, and he was the first to say that he wanted to build a wall, and he wants to deport everybody who's here illegally, then why is it that the Ukraine should have to tolerate an invasion of its sovereignty?

Because it's the same premise, and you shouldn't have to negotiate the end to that. Certainly, the Republican Party that I that I grew up with believe that you don't tolerate communist dictators, in this case, the former head of the KGB, walking into a sovereign country. You do what you have to do to fight that. That was really the moment I remember the next morning realizing that I had absolutely changed my mind. Even though I have serious policy differences with Vice President Harris, I decided that this time it wasn't so much about policy. In this instance, it was about policy, but also about character in general.

Help me. What was your decision? That I can't risk a protest vote that might help Trump. I need to actually vote against him. I can't just be on the sideline. What was the math calculation?

The math calculation was exactly that. I needed to vote against allowing him to become President again. That way, if it does happen, and it could because it's a dead heat in almost all of the swing states. But I don't want it on my conscience that I contributed in some way to that. I would rather argue against bad policies and temper those for four years. Let the Republican Party lose. Let them rebuild. They will rebuild as a traditional conservative party as opposed to a populist party of tariffs. Sometimes you have to say American first, conservative second, Republican third.

What is your personal math? You were here in 2016, obviously, and in 2020, Trump narrowly wins in 2016. Biden wins narrowly, a little bit more, but narrowly in 2020. Just what does your gut tell you about this, about how close it is? And if you had to pick as we head into the final stretch, do you see someone with an advantage or do you just see a photo finish? And who knows?

I see the photo finish, and I don't see the finish finish on election night or even in the week of election day. I see the finish probably in court at some point in December, like in 2000. I think the country is that polarized that it is that close. Maybe it's just the lawyer in me, but I have the feeling that it ends in court. I don't know which way that it ends. I just hope that whichever judges hear it are fair-minded. But credibility is everything with the courts, and I hope that judges will handle this in a fair-minded way.

Let me close by asking you about your own plans in the final stretch here. You're going to vote for a candidate with whom you have pretty significant differences because of a question of principle. Does that mean you try to convince any friends to do that, too, or is it just, I've made my decision, I'm at peace with it, and that's it?

I have made my decision, and I'm at peace with it. This is not an election where I'm judging anyone else. I have friends who are voting for Trump. I have friends who are voting for Harris. I have friends who are leaving the top of the ticket blank, voting third-party, protest voting. These are very difficult choices. I don't judge anybody. I just tell people what I'm going to do and why, because we have someone who is running who is policy-wise on most I agree with more. But in terms of character and in terms of that one foreign policy stance in particular on the Ukraine and also on the issue of tariffs, and generally on pitting people against each other, Having incited a riot once and maybe would do it again, that's a huge concern. So that's not a person for whom I would vote, but I'm not going to overly try to influence others. Leaders. Let's lead by example.

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We're getting to the end here. Have you made up your mind?

No.

Cynthia Sabatini lives in Media, Pennsylvania. That's Delaware County. She does consulting work in the pharmaceutical industry.

Are you leaning one way or the other?

Well, let me put it to you this way, that I am disenchanted with the Democratic Party, and it's causing me to view Harris in a slightly different light. And the reason I'm disenchanted with the Democratic Party has to do with the local Democratic Party that runs the Township, runs the school board, and runs the county. They have no sense of fiscal responsibility to the taxpayers. They're just about instituting constituting new taxes to provide more and more services, not all of which are necessary.

And so you're mad about a local issue, and is she going to pay the price for that?

She may. She may. Because the way I view the Democratic Party is, they are the party of big government that likes to spend money And as the Democratic Party has become more of the party of the college-educated and affluent, they take full advantage of that because that group has the greater financial bandwidth. That's why they've lost the Working Class Party, because they're struggling under the economic reign of terror of the Democrats.

If If you can't vote for her, does that mean you vote for Trump?

No. Trump is a nonstarter for me. So he's not a consideration because I don't view the tax plan that he put into effect when he was President to be sound either.

Is that it about him? Is it because you didn't like his economic plan, or do you have other reservations that you think, I don't want a return of the Trump presidency because...

Well, I don't think Trump is necessarily dignified to be President. He says outrageous things, and on a world stage, do we want this individual representing us? And also January sixth, to me, was the breaking point, quite honestly. Now, I I didn't vote for him in 2016. I didn't vote for him in 2020. So I was never predisposed to vote for him, even though I am a registered Republican and feel a kinship with the Republican Party and their traditional economic stances. On January sixth, 2021, that just put the nail in his coffin for me. If I would I would never entertain voting for him.

So if Nikki Haley were the Republican nominee, this would be a no-brainer for you?

Oh, I would likely vote for her. Absolutely. In fact, she's an individual under consideration for me to ride in. To write in? To to write in, but I haven't made up my mind.

So let's walk through that. What could the vice president do to convince you she's not the local Democrats I'm mad at? Is there anything she could do?

Sure. She She has never answered directly how she's going to pay for the $25,000 subsidy for first-time homeowners, the $50,000 deduction for small business owners, the $6,000, the expansion of the child tax credit. Please tell us. All she says is, I'm not going to tax those who are making $400,000 per year. Are you talking about couples? Are you talking about individuals at that level? Are you talking about earned income? I'm a numbers person. I want to know the specifics. We have a looming federal deficit. At some point, the Piper will have to be paid. So tell me, show me the calculations. Everything The third thing I've read is that she's poised under her plans to increase the deficit by $3.2 trillion.

Those studies also say that Trump's plan would increase it even more.

Even more so. But Trump is not a consideration, right?

Yeah, for me. So she needs to connect some dots that in your view, she has just not connected. She hasn't done the math right for you.

See, to me, this is a very sensitive issue. It's sensitive at the local level. It's sensitive at the national level. And I now am highly more sensitized about this because what's going on in my local Township, where I just attended a meeting two nights ago about the imposition of a new tax, which will cost me dearly.

How do you run the math in your head in the sense that you didn't vote for him in 2016 or 2020. He won here in 2016, and he went on to be President. He lost here in 2020, and Joe Biden became President. It's closer this time if you believe the data. I know it is. And so who do you not want more in the sense that if you write in somebody You could be helping Trump.

Well, John, I have Democratic friends who've posed that question to me, and they also felt that I helped Trump win here in 2016 by writing in Senator Susan Collins. I really don't care what they personally think about that. To me, I don't want to be forced into making a decision. Between one of the two. And I think it speaks to the fact that I don't like the two-party system. In a country of 340 million people, we're reduced to this. I would much prefer a parliamentary system.

You can make that case, that or other political reforms, but there's an election days away from now. I know.

And I have to deal with the reality. I know that. And that's why I'm still on the fence.

So what do you do? What do you do in the few days you have left? Is it just waiting to see if she answers your question? It's really on her because you're not going to vote for him.

No, I'm not voting for Trump. I am praying for divine intervention. I may I'm going to go back to church. No, okay.

Let me not be flip. No, everyone makes their decisions their own way. But for you, it's math. You want to see her spreadsheet. Some people say, I want to know who she is. I want to be able to close my eyes and say she's a president. I don't know who she is.

I don't know who she is, really. I really don't, because she had different positions than she does now, but she continues to say, they're still within your value system. So connect the dots for me, vice President Harris. How does your value system affect your change in policies. I believe she's a person of character. I have no qualms about that. I really do. I think she's an outstanding individual. It's just that I really don't know what to expect from her if she is indeed elected. I don't. I don't know what her positions will be. Is she merely running towards the middle because She wants to win these swing states? I really don't know who she is. I certainly didn't get an idea of who she was as vice president. Now, that may be unfair because vice presidents are second bananas to the president. But in this three-month period of time, I just don't have assurances of who she is and whether she'll revert to earlier beliefs. Will she be tough on the border? And she never answers anything directly.

In the end, I just make sure I have this right. In the end, she can win your vote. But if she doesn't, you won't give it to her just because you don't want Trump?

I don't know, because there could be something else that bubbles to the surface, something that is egregious, something that is world-shaking. That makes me think, I better rethink this. I better vote for her. I will tell you now, I have decided it won't be until election day that I bring my my mail-in ballot to the courthouse and drop it in the drop-off box at the courthouse in media.

So you're going to sit here on the morning of election day and fill that out? Yeah. Or maybe the night before, but you think it'll be- Maybe the night before. But you think it'll go right to the end?

I do. I do. That's how I'm inclined.

So then help me with this one. Finish the sentence. Madam vice president, if you want my vote here in the very important Philadelphia suburbs, you need to do.

You need to answer questions on point. You need to provide more details about your economic plan. You need to provide more details about your vision also for this country. Now, she's addressed that somewhat, but I'm a bottom-line person. I want details. I think Trump's going to win. The lion's share of my friends and family are Democrats. They think at the 11th hour, people will have such reservations about Trump that it will cause them to vote for Harris. I don't see it that way.

We're on tour this week. That's what I've been calling in.

Yeah, Taylor's opening for us. We've lost our mind. That's what happens when you're on the road for 15 months. Ellie from Allentown, that's Allie Malloy, currently Ellie in Tucson, with me in this temporary studio. A courtesy of Marriott.

Allie has been my sidekick for months now through the jet lag, through state after state after state, all the rest of it.

So what do you think when you listen to these three?

Obviously, a lot about what we do is anecdotal. And these voters, they don't represent Pennsylvania as a whole, obviously, but they do represent these unsatisfied voters who, whether or not they are for Trump or for Harris or for neither, it speaks to the frustration and just the lack of choices and people making their choices based on being against something.

No, they are interesting, and they're critical in the short term, and they're also part of a fascinating question that's going to live with us beyond this election, which is what happens to the Republican Party. If Trump loses, that debate starts right away. If Trump wins, that debate is more of a mumble among those who don't like Trump, but he'll be dominant for a while. We'll be talking to these voters for years, to see what happens. But right now, they matter because 150 55,000 people voted for Nikki Haley long after she was out of the race. That tells you something. They do not want to vote for Donald Trump. In fact, they want to vote against him. Joe Biden won Pennsylvania by 80,000 votes. The math is pretty simple. You have 155,000 people in a state that was last decided by 80,000 votes and decided by half that when Trump won it in 2016. For Harris, the challenge is win them over.

John, a lot of people ask us how we find these voters. We have a great team who spend hours trying to find them. And in recent weeks, it's gotten a little bit harder. A lot of people, particularly moderates, don't see the upside in it. What do you think that's about?

It's about polarization. It's about safety. I don't mean that in a life or death way. I mean that in a grief during your life way. We have had some people who have said that being part of the series has caused them grief. I've had friends get in their face. I've had friends say, How can you possibly think that way? If they own a business, there's been online posting saying, Boycott them. You have a lot of these people who say, You know what? You're at the point now where you're going to ask me who I'm going to for. If I tell you, I'm going to take grief for it, no, thank you. I respect it, but it makes me all the more grateful for those who have continued to stay in this conversation.

We've been to most of the battlegrounds in the last few weeks But in the last two weeks or so, and our visit to Pennsylvania exemplified this, there does seem to be this pessimism on both sides of the aisle about the election. Even if you think that your candidate is going to win or you're not sure, there's a darkness almost around the country on both sides or an unsureness.

Yeah, you're right. I would call it a sense of apprehension, a lot of anxiety. This is supposed to be a celebration. Even if your candidate loses, this is what makes America unique. We have a presidential election every four years. We have a peaceful transfer of power. The winner gets a parade down Pennsylvania Avenue, and you give that person a brief honeymoon. And then, yeah, if your guy or girl didn't win, then you start organizing for the next one. That's the way it's supposed to work. But everybody is scarred in different ways by what happened four years ago. Everybody is scarred by what they saw on January sixth, by the fact that the campaign really never ended.

It's a whole new world, and it leaves people a mix of anxious and apprehensive and doubtful and pessimistic and cynical about something that is supposed to be our most glorious celebration, win, lose, or draw.

That's sad, but it is very real.

John, what do you think is going to happen this week?

Well, I don't know the answer to that question. The most fascinating thing to me is that that now is part of our job, too. It's part of our job, too.

I mean, I used Even back in my AP days, before I came to CNN television, election night was the big night.

You wrote the analysis about how and why it happened the whole time. You're thinking, next week I'm on vacation, right? Now you have people asking, Is there going to be a civil war? And they're not joking. That, to me, I was going to say it's a parallel universe, but it's not. It's our universe. I mean, people are having these questions and conversations about what should we be thinking about? It's on voters' minds all across the country, Democrats, Republicans, independents. And guess what? It has to be part of our planning of what we do for a living, which is a whole new world.

I can't let myself think about it if I'm talking about what Ali the non-journalist is thinking. Ali, the journalist, is just preparing and ready for whatever comes and also has her vacation plans on hold. I'm worried But I do think hearing from our voters does give me some hope because we hear from a lot of people, and no one wants the unrest. I believe in the best of America still, and that might be maybe even naive, but I've seen it this past year on the road, so I still hold out hope. But am I preparing for the other options? Yes.

This podcast version of All Over the Map is a CNN audio production.

Our show producers are Grace Walker, Jessie Remedios, and Ali Malloy. Our editor is Graylyn Brochier, and our senior producers are Dan Blum and Haley Thomas.

Dan Dizula is our technical director, and Steve Ligtai is executive producer of CNN Audio. Support from Nikki Robertson, Jacquelyn Calo, Alex Manasari, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Lanie Steinhart, Jamis Andrest, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namarot. Special thanks to Wendy Brundage and Katie Hinman. I'm John King. Thanks for listening.

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