Transcript of Haberman shares Trump's latest thinking on controversial Cabinet picks

My lead source tonight is CNN Political Analyst and Senior Political Correspondent for the New York Times, Maggie Haberman. Maggie, you have new reporting on the President-elect support for Matt Gates. Where is his head at on this right now?

So, Kaitlyn, he is not backing off, as you said, he is calling people senators and others, trying to push Gates and three other very controversial nominees through once the nominating process actually begins. It hasn't yet, although you'd think that Trump was in office already based on how much talk there is. But he is very focused on getting Gates over the line. Privately, he has said in discussions with people that he thinks that Gates's chances of getting confirmed are the odds are less than 50 % or less than even. But he is still going to push ahead with it, and he is digging in, and I expect that that is going to be the posture for as long as he can hold it.

When he says less than 50 %, which I think is probably generous when you talk to people, there seems to be a very clear-eye view of the fight happening here. Is there Is there a sense that they're preparing replacements if it does come to that situation or not from your understanding yet?

They're not talking openly about replacements, but they have a number of options who they have looked at. The AG post, attorney general, post as YouNake, no, Caitlin, is one of the most important to President-elect Trump, and it is something that he has been talking about for a very long time. Among the people who could fill that role, and it doesn't mean necessarily would, but who could fill that role should Gates falter, could be Todd Blanch, who is Trump's personal lawyer and the choice for Deputy Attorney General.

And when it comes to what that looks like, I mean, picking his personal attorneys to also go into the administration, he's now at four with picking Will Scharff over the weekend to be Staff Secretary, notable in and of itself. But as we're triaging the headlines here, the other pick here that seems to be pushing the boundaries of what the system is going to take is his pick for the Pentagon chief, obviously, Pete Heggsett, has been part of this as well. What did you hear? What have you heard over the last 48 hours of how Trump is viewing that, given we've learned he did pay money to the woman that's accusing him of sexual assault, which I should note, he and his attorney are denying.

There's more concern from some people around Trump than there is from Trump himself about this whole issue. Trump has really dug in and has told advisors that he is going to stick with Hegset. Now, we'll see if anything else emerges. They did do a vet, we are told. This did not show up, this issue, because it was a private settlement. According to the people who were briefed on what took place, Trump really likes Pete Hegset. But this did introduce the thing Trump doesn't like, which is an element of surprise and a negative headline. And so we will see where this goes. But for now, he is sticking with him as he is with Gates. Most of the heat right now, Kaitlyn, is on Gates. And so where Trump's thinking and his advisor's thinking is that he can basically shift what the bar is for acceptability and how much controversy the Senate system will tolerate if Gates goes, maybe the other three, Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. Being the others, get through.

They're viewing it that way. Is that by design, from what you've heard, or is it just they're seeing it as they have multiple committees that are questionable about getting confirmed?

Yeah, I don't think this is 4D chess. I think that these are people who they've decided they're going to stick to in the case of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And in the case of Tulsi Gabbard, they were two people who became part of his coalition in his campaign. Gates was picked almost on a whim aboard his airplane, as you know. And Hegsethe was an instinctive pick on for this part, but somebody who he's thought about before for another role. Put together, he's just decided he is going to battery ram the system and see where it lands.

You know how the negative headlines can affect Trump and shape his perception of a policy or a person. Do you think he's viewing it differently this time than he was when he was last in office? When a negative headline could really get someone pushed out of a job, is he still seeing it the same way this time around?

I think it depends on who it is. Kaitlyn, you reported earlier that he's grown irritated with Howard Lutnik. That is correct. It's not really so much about headlines. It actually didn't begin this way, but it was exacerbated in an interview that Lutnik did with you. And he was very irritated by that interview as Lutnik was making all kinds of statements, and people around him were irritated as Lutnik was making statements that they did not view helpful. And Lutnik has been around a lot. Trump has complained to people that Lutnik has been, quote, unquote, too much, even as he appreciates what Lutnik has done in the transition and his financial support for the campaign and for whatever other efforts he's involved with. That thing Trump doesn't like. There are other negative headlines that he has proven more willing to tolerate because he is willing to dismiss certain headlines if they're in line with the kinds of difficulties he himself has faced, such as accusations about sexual harassment or sexual assault or sexual misconduct.

So he views those negative headlines differently because he himself has also been accused of those things.

Correct. And says they're false. Yes.

On the treasury aspect, can we just talk about that for a second? Because it seems to be the primary thing that everyone in Trump world is talking about today, given this is now dragged out. Here we are, Monday night. No decision still, and nothing behind the scenes, it seems like either. Howard Lutnik made this push for it, but there are other names that also came down here, met with Trump, seemed like they were on the verge of getting it, and it still very much seems to be anyone's job to have at this moment, Maggie.

That's right. There are new names coming in. Jonathan Swann and I reported yesterday about Kevin Warrish. She talked about him before. Mark Rowan from Apollo is another name. Senator Bill Hagerty is another. There are other names that are floating around, unlike other roles where Trump had a real clear idea of what he wanted in them because the policy area was narrower or because the scope of what he expected them to be involved with was more specific and something he was more engaged with. The economic roles have always been a little more complicated for him. And on this one, yes, he has told people he wants a big name, but what exactly that means is not clear. He is a credentialist, and he does like big Wall Street names. And so it's not surprising that he is still looking around because he has moved so quickly with so many other choices. We will see where this goes this week. The desire from a lot of people around him is to have it done by the end of the week, not just this post, but a number of other economic jobs in the administration.

What about the loyalty aspect on that front? Because obviously, that's something Trump prized so much in this role as he was looking at it, or in any role that he's looking at. But he has hired people who've criticized him. I mean, JD Vance, obviously, had previously criticized him, Marco Rubio. And Mark Rowan, the Wall Street billionaire that you were talking about that's under consideration for Treasury, He was saying last December that he didn't like the choices when it was clear it was going to be a Biden-Trump race. He was saying he couldn't believe that in a country of this many millions of people, that those were the two options. He said he was disappointed with it. Does that factor into how Trump makes the call like this one?

I have no doubt that there will be efforts to get that in front of Trump and to make sure those factors are in his head. If Trump ruled out every person who had ever criticized him, he'd have a pretty empty government. And so I think that in some cases it moves past that. It depends on what else they offer him. In the case of J. D. Vance, it's really clear why it is that he likes J. D. Vance. In this particular job, the Treasury Secretary job, he does want somebody who can speak on TV. He does want somebody somebody who can go on CNBC and be effective making a case for the Trump economy. And he wants somebody who he doesn't believe is going to try to be a voice in opposition to the tariffs that he wants. That was a big issue in his initial term. So we will see where it goes.

Can I ask you, you also reported over the weekend about Boris Epstein, who is a close Trump aid. He basically organized all of Trump's legal defenses when it came to his criminal cases. He played a role in picking Matt Gates on that airplane ride that you were talking about. You reported over the weekend just about the level of influence that seems to be even surprising some people in Trump's circle about him.

Yeah, including Elon Musk, who has raised eyebrows about it, and we are told by multiple people, has chafed at Boris Epstein privately and at his influence privately. There is no doubt that Boris Epstein, who is currently under indictment in Arizona for his own alleged role in the so-called fake elector's scheme in to overthrow Joe Biden's win, he is basically orchestrating all of these legal appointments in key jobs around President-elect Trump, the Deputy Attorney General, the Principal Deputy Attorney General, the White House Staff Secretary, and the White House Council. Those are really key roles. He is weighing in on other pics as well that go beyond that legal area. So people who are questioning why he has so much influence and complaining about it, and he has a number of detractors in that world, the person who they have to ask about that is Donald Trump, who has empowered him.