Transcript of Candace x Hunter Biden: The Interview New

Hunter Biden, welcome to the Candace Elwood Show.

It's wonderful to be here.

People are just gonna be like, how on earth did this happen?

I know.

I gotta give them a bit of a backstory. So I, um, I, I went to dinner with a fellow podcaster and we were just talking about interviews. Cause we don't do too many interviews on the show. And he, he first asked me what was the best interview I ever did. And I said, without question, the USS Liberty survivor, Phil Tourney. And then he said, what would be your top interview that you'd wanna do? And I said, oh gosh, we're in such a different time now. Like, I'm just not interested in politics. Like, it would have to be something so different. And then I said, actually, Hunter Biden. And I said to him, I watched your sit-down with Andrew Callahan.

Yeah.

And it was kind of the most refreshing interview that I had seen in politics for in a very long time because we're so used to being gaslit about various things happening. Everyone's trying to hide stuff. And we read a lot about you. I guess we didn't really hear anything from you. So this was kind of the first time that I heard you in your own words, just totally owning your addiction issues. Also going after Jake Tapper and George Clooney. And when we were kind of expecting the typical Democrat, like, these are great guys, these guys are amazing. Jake Tapper should, you know, win a Pulitzer. I don't know. And I, I would just, it wasn't what I was expecting is what I would say. So, uh, and then that person just sort of made this happen.

Yeah.

So I want to just sort of get into the Hunter Biden story. I will say to the audience right now, I have already made the pledge right when I got on the phone with you that like, obviously I'm not going to make you say anything bad about your father because that would just be completely demonic to be like, say something terrible about your father. Everyone knows my opinions, my political perspectives, they're already out there. He is your dad, so that is separate from my viewpoints.

Because there's no way I possibly could.

Yeah, of course, I totally get that. Um, but there's a lot be said about you and a lot that I guess hasn't been said about your journey. And, uh, I guess I want to start with just one question for the culture. The cocaine that was found at the White House, was it yours?

No, not only was it not mine, no. Number one is thank you for having me here. And one of the reasons is to be able to answer these questions. You know, the one thing I am, uh, After 6 years of this, I've been sober since June 1st, 2019, clean and sober, verifiably so, by the way, and verifiably so by the, the, the, uh, the Bureau of, uh, of Probation, in which I was drug tested randomly for over the course of 2 years while I went through my trials and things like that. But beyond that is that, uh, uh, to directly to your question, I wasn't even there. Not only there, but people have to understand is where that cocaine was found was, you know, the visitor's entrance underneath the— oh, that is where visitors come in and, uh, and they come over from the old executive office building staff to go to the, um, uh, go to the Oval or go to the Chief of Staff's office or to the offices in the West Wing. And it was found in a cubby in, uh, right outside of the Situation Room. And it's like no possibility, not even remotely, beyond the fact that I wasn't even there.

I mean, I spent probably, you know, over the course of 4 years, maybe, um, 25 days at the White House, like 25 nights, 30 if I, you know, I'm being fair. And so it's just a, you know, I was an easy, easy, you know, um, I was, I'm an easy target. Uh, and understandably so.

Right.

I mean, I've been, I think, probably the most famous addict, uh, and, uh, famous person, um, through the grace of God in recovery for 7 years, but, or close to 7 years, June 1st.

So, yeah, I definitely thought you were on drugs while your father was in the White House.

I don't know. Yeah.

But I think it might have just also been the timing of the laptop coming out and then people just assuming that you were still on drugs. I don't know. That might have been why in our heads we thought that.

Yeah. No, I think that, that it was, that they purposely conflated, um, you know, my, I wrote a book and which came out in April of 2021 in which I, uh, did something that very few people I think ever in, in that are kind of like similarly situated to me do in which I was 100% frank about the fact that not only was I an addict, not only was I an alcoholic, I don't really see the distinction between the two when they're both drugs, but I was a crack addict. Like, I was a degenerate crack addict. I mean, I've heard you call me a crackhead many times, and the truth of the matter is I was a crackhead.

Yeah.

And, and, and, um, and, and I say that not to shock people because it's really shocking. Um, uh, crack cocaine carries such a stigma to it to begin with, but I say it because I think that there are so many people— I don't think, I know there are so many people. I think that there's, you know, at any given time, 30 million, uh, Americans that are either in active addiction or in recovery. There's not a single person that I know that hasn't been impacted by addiction at some level, in some form. Personally or with someone that is one degree of separation from them that they love? No one that I know, least of all me. Yeah. And it— yeah. And, and, um, and part of that, one of the reasons I'm here, the stories that you tell about that in terms of, um, my family, your family, and, uh, and, and there is where the common ground is for me. I'm— I, it— I can 100% say this is that I, a friend of mine, uh, said, gave me this quote, um, about 2 years ago and it's become my mantra is that it's Mother Teresa.

It was attributed to Mother Teresa is if you want to change the world, go home and love your family. That's, that is my, that's, that's my everything. now. And, um, and part of that is not just the family that you have, um, by, uh, blood and birth, but also the community that, uh, that you're inextricably, uh, tied to. And that community for me is the recovery community and is people that are still sick and suffering from addiction. And so the biggest reason that I wanted to come talk to you beyond the fact, and this is not me blowing smoke, I think that Regardless of whether I agree with you, you're probably the most effective communicator, um, uh, I've ever heard behind a microphone. And it's really driven me crazy at times. It's really, really, really good. Yeah. Um, um, but is, is it, is it, I wanted to talk to you about those things and anything else you want to talk about.

Yeah, I was— I'm most interested in the addiction story. And, and I was saying to you before we got, uh, before we started rolling, that this was sort of something that I noticed when I would cover various topics, whether it was pornography, drugs on my show, uh, drinking, how many men would write and say they were suffering with various things. And yet they don't often speak about, um, like how they're quietly suffering at whether it's with addiction to pornography, addiction to drugs. And I don't think there are enough conversations about it. And so when I watched that interview of you just just laying it out there, something that most people try to hide or they're shameful of. I was like, there actually just needs to be more dialog about it. I grew up with tons of addicts in my family. I have people in my family who are still addicted. And there is, I think there is a natural anger that people have when they for some reason believe, and I think this was part of the anger that even some, that I had toward you before I, I heard you speak about your addiction, is that you sort of think when somebody has money and political connections that that somehow removes them um, from going through these sorts of barriers in life.

So when I grew up, it's like, okay, like you have uncles, whatever, that are addicted to crack. You have cousins that are doing crack, whatever it is, or, or experimenting with meth and drugs and those things. And then you see someone that has a life of privilege and for some reason in your mind you wrongly go, okay, that can't happen. And it did happen. And I actually, I'd like to hear like how you got addicted. Like what was actually the, the story, your path toward addiction?

Yeah. So I thank you for, uh, let me talk about that or asking me about it. And I really mean it. It, it's, um, one of the things that traps people, but I can only speak about myself, but I think that, uh, people that are in, uh, that, that are addicts or that are in recovery also, you find out really fast is that you're not as terminally unique as you think you are. Is that, um, and one of the things that that is really important about addicts talking to each other and talking about it is that realization. Because one of the things that traps you in your addiction is shame. And, you know, you, you like me are, are Catholic and we have learned that guilt is an appropriate emotion. Guilt is an appropriate response to something when you've done something wrong. And you're supposed to atone for it and you're supposed to seek forgiveness, whether the forgiveness comes from an individual or not. You're— that, that is the, um, that's the lesson is that it is in, uh, only, uh, through seeking that forgiveness can you release yourself from that guilt. That's appropriate. Shame is not.

Shame is just absolutely corrosive. Shame is you telling yourself that you're not worthy. That you're never gonna be worthy, that you, that the things that you've done, you can never be redeemed from. And I've done horrible things in my addiction in terms of what I did in terms of my relationships and, and decisions that I made. And more than anything is just removing myself from, uh, being present for the people that love me. Um, and, um, and what happened to me Um, and I really mean this, is that the exposure, not piecemeal, but the total exposure, my entire digital footprint stolen from me, a 20-year digital footprint, every text message, every picture, every, all of the things that, uh, that you would be ashamed of became, uh, front page news for 4 years, 5 years, beginning in 2019. And it forced me into a choice. And the choice was, do I get out of bed and live or do I die? And it became that much of an economy. And I chose to live. It wasn't easy. And, um, and maintaining sobriety in, in that kind of like a pressure cooker, mm-hmm. Um, is often the thing that triggers you.

But something broke in me in a good way, which was that I no longer have any fear. I, I like, you know, sitting down with you is to me an all in opportunity for you to see me as a human being and not Um, you know, Hunter Biden laptop.

Yeah.

And the pictures that, you know, uh, Congressman Greene, uh, like put up, uh, in Congress or the, or the New York Post. You know, I think I was on the COVID of the New York Post in one year more than any, uh, anybody in the history of the paper. And none of it was good. None of it was good. And, um, But what it's given me is the opportunity to own it all, is to own, uh, all of my story without shame or fear. Um, uh, realizing that I, um, I have a community of people out there that I wanna, uh, I wanna be of service to. I really mean that. And, and, um, and so, and part of it is by me being able to be honest about it, We were just talking before we started this, is the hardest thing for any addict to do is, is not only get honest with the people that they love, but to get honest with themselves.

Mm-hmm.

And until they can, until they can really see themselves for who they are, all of it, and, and decide to love themselves, then, you know, uh, the, yeah, the cycle's just gonna continue. It's just, at least in my experience, that, that's That's the truth.

I think one of the things—

Did I even answer your question?

Yeah. Well, I wanna talk about the first time that you got introduced to it. 'Cause that's interesting.

Oh, I know I went into all the good stuff.

Yeah. Actually do start with that. Like how did you actually get introduced? First off, describe for people who don't know, yeah. Uh, the difference between cocaine and crack. 'Cause crack is, is a lot more addictive.

Yeah.

And so just what is the difference between—

I know I got a lot of heat for—

No, it was fantastic.

Yeah.

It was fantastic. I was like, he's actually very educated on this.

And well, it was imp— it's important to me to make the, the distinction that, that there's this idea that, um, that there's this kind of a secret kind of special enhancement to, uh, to powder cocaine that makes it into crack. And, you know, you have to have, you know, uh, some, uh, technical degree in order to be able to, to, to, to do that. And let's start all the way at the beginning. I think that I'm genetically predisposed to being an alcoholic. I do believe that there is a genetic piece of it. I do believe that my brain works differently as an addict in terms of the way in which my synapses, um, uh, fire once they're introduced to the dopamine hit and the serotonin, um, increase that occurs because of an introduction of a substance. I believe that, uh, that, that I became, uh, acclimated and, um, physiologically dependent upon that when I, um, started to drink in earnest when I was in college, in which you can control. And, you know, I made it through Georgetown and I went to Jesuit Volunteer Corps for a year and, and, and it's kind of like domestic peace.

Well, you know, the JVC. I was JVC for a year after, after college. And, and then I went to Yale Law School, you know, was married, had my, my my oldest daughter when I was a first-year law student and made it through all of that and made it through my first year's employment drinking probably more than everybody, than most people do, but completely functional. And one day I woke up when I was 33 years old to my brother calling me and saying, "This has gotta stop. Like, you gotta stop." And, and, and what he meant was, is that, you know, like a, a whole weekend was missing kind of. And, um, and I, and I said, okay. And he drove me to the airport and, uh, he put me on a plane in New York and I flew to a place that was started by Eric Clapton called, uh, uh, uh, Crossroads in Antigua. And I went to rehab and I came out and I, and I went, went directly when I came out, my brother picked me up from the airport, drove me to an AA meeting, walked in with me, Dupont Circle in, in, uh, DC.

I met my sponsor that first meeting that I ever went to. And, and I stayed clean and sober for, um, for about 7 years. And, uh, And then I relapsed and, uh, and it was just such a mundane, stupid story. I was on a plane by myself. Everything was okay. Things were looking up. It was, you know, uh, you know, normal life pressures, but it was all good. And it's the, um, that's the real insidious thing about addiction and alcoholism. It, it never goes away necessarily. There's always the answer that is being presented to you by the thing that you trust the most, which is your brain. And what it says is, if you don't want to feel this way, whatever the way is, or if you want to feel this way even more, I have the answer for you. And I was on a plane by myself and I had a drink. And that drink in, uh, 2010, 7 years almost of sobriety, started a cycle of, uh, relapse. And recovery and relapse and recovery in which it was really hard for me to be honest with the people that love me. Mm-hmm. Because I just wanted to hide it.

I just wanted it to go away. And I thought, okay, I'll get through this cycle and, you know, I'll sleep it off, uh, this weekend and that, that's it. I'm done. And that would last a week and then it would last 3 months. And then I went back to rehab and then it became kind of, then I came back and I I started, I mean, talk about, you talk about this all the time, which I love that you do, it was Big Pharma, you know what I mean? I had shingles and so somebody prescribed me like 52 oxycodone, like, I mean, ridiculous. And I started that and, and then I started drinking again and the prescription ran out and then the cycle just started to happen. And, um, but when my brother died, uh, it all fell apart. Bonai. Uh, were, uh, and like, I, I don't purport that our relationship was unique or that his loss was greater than, uh, my, my loss of him was greater than anybody else's loss of their brother or someone that they deeply, deeply loved. But when my mom and sister and my Beau and I were in that car accident in 1972, Um, and we survived.

It was the two of us every day. We're a year and a day apart. We talked every day. I mean, except when he was in Iraq, I literally probably talked to my brother every day. And, um, and, uh, and when I, when Beau died, my marriage fell apart, uh, after 20 years, 22 years. Um, yeah, by the way, for reasons that, uh, marriages fall apart, you know, and, uh, but I take a lot of responsibility for, and, uh, and it just started a really, really dark circle cycle. In the past when I would, uh, when I would have these relapses, there's, there was always someone in such proximity to me that they would like, you know, I couldn't escape. I couldn't escape. In this instance, Beau was gone. I, uh, right after Beau, uh, died, um, I, uh, um, ended up, uh, um, separated from my wife, like within the month. And my dad, for the first time in my life, who was my rock, uh, was stuck in his own grief, like deep, deep grief. Mm-hmm. And, and I just went down in a hole and I checked myself into a rehab that year and came out and stayed sober for a while and then relapsed and then went into a, um, an outpatient program in DC where I went like, you know, 4 hours every day for, you know, from 8 to 2 or, or 6 hours, uh, every day, um, stay sober.

And then I relapsed. And I came back and they said, well, you have to— I admitted to them that I relapsed and, and that in this instance I also used cocaine. And they said, well, you have to take a, a, um, a drug test. And I said, I'm not gonna take a drug test. I'm not gonna put something on, you know, it's because it's not protected by HIPAA in a rehab, uh, uh, uh, scenario, which is crazy, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, long story short, they said, you can't come back in unless you take the drug test. And I said, well, I'm not taking the drug test. I'm going through a divorce and it's not protected by HIPAA. It will become public. I don't want to do this to my family. I like, I'm telling you, I use cocaine and I drank. Is that not good enough to come back? And they said no, for whatever reason. And I'm not blaming them. This is not their fault. I walked out. And I knew Lincoln Park was a kind of open-air drug market. I saw a woman that was kind of famous in the area since I had been in college, literally for 20 years that I would see in the streets around, you know, DC in that area where I worked for a long time.

And I said, I went up to her and I said, can I get some crack?

Wow.

And I think it was basically, I said, Can you help me commit suicide? I mean, I, I don't think, I know that, that now and, and, uh, looking back, it was the coward's way. And I really mean that. I was a coward. I, I didn't go and just do it. I said, let me do it this way and really, really, really drag everybody down with me along the way. Let, let me figure out the way not only to kill myself, but to maybe kill my dad. You know, really hurt my family, um, uh, particularly my, my 3 daughters who like adore me and I adore, like just the, the, the fact. And I, and I smoked crack. And the, the difference between crack cocaine and powder cocaine is this, and I really truly do not want to give a roadmap for people to be able to, um, uh, do this because I swear to God it'll kill you. But it's sodium bicarbonate, which is baking soda, water, heat. That's it. That's all. That is the entire difference of it, which allows it to be ingested through smoking. And the combination of those things makes it so that it affects your physiology much faster than it would be if you just use powdered cocaine through your nose or in any other form other than intravenously.

And it also allows you to ingest more faster than you could possibly ever ingest by sniffing cocaine up your nose. The combination of that, the combination of combustion ritual and, uh, the ritual meaning the way in which you have to, you know, uh, I mean, I can still feel my hands doing it.

Mm-hmm.

Is, you know, becomes this ritualistic thing with the combination of combustion, which is, uh, and you learn, you, I mean, if you really study things about addiction is these kind of key components of, um, oral fixation and things like that. It just becomes the most ungodly addiction that you can possibly imagine to the point where I was smoking crack, you know, I mean, literally, you know, I was either looking for or smoking or recovering, not even recovering. You don't recover. To just go find more for, um, close to a 2-year period of time. Wow. And it took me to places, you know, I wrote all about it and I got made fun of about it. And, you know, people think that, you know, when I wrote my book, like, you know, claw, you know, clawing through the carpet to find crack cocaine and, you know, Parmesan cheese. And, you know, and I know it's a real laugh line, but anybody that's ever been an addict like that, They don't laugh about it. It's devastating. Think that you were that person. Mm-hmm. You can see yourself doing it. Just devastating. And so what happens in addiction so often is this, is people not only, they can't admit that, they can't even admit it to themselves.

They just block it out. They go, they get 30 days clean, they come out, they go back into the same exact situation that they were in before. And they think, I'm just not gonna do it again. I, I'm just gonna stay, you know, like, I, I, I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna make it. And what will come up is that, that they'll wake up in the morning and they'll remember that time in the motel with the, you know, the person, the prostitute that brought you the drugs and, um, that stole, just stole your wallet and all your, and, and every, and all your drugs and everything. And you had to You were, you were combing through carpet to see if there was anything there, and you smoke whatever white that you found on the ground. Like, it's the shame. Mm-hmm. Is thinking of yourself like that, regardless of who you are, regardless of where you came from, whether your dad's the president of the United States or it doesn't matter. And they don't admit that to themselves. They don't admit it to anyone around them. Don't ever say it. And you know what happens? You never lose it.

And it sits like right here, like in the back of your head, and it pops up and you just feel so disgusted with yourself that your brain immediately tells you, regardless of how far away you are from a drink or drug, like, I know the way not to feel this way. I know exactly how to feel this way. You're gonna die if you keep feeling this way. You need, you need to take a drink.

Mm-hmm.

And that's always how it starts. I mean, alcohol is the most dangerous drug in the world. Um, uh, just by virtue of the amount of destruction and, um, and devastation that is, uh, that comes personally and to the people around people that are alcoholics. And I don't find any difference between being an addict and an alcoholic. Um, And, uh, but that's where it starts and that's where it started for me. That was my, that's my story until I met Melissa and got clean and sober. And I've been, so, you know, almost 7 years now.

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Yeah.

Um, and you obviously are— because I genuinely understand what those sorts of addictions do. I don't think people realize you're not— you're just not even yourself. Like, you're like— it's like a demon, as the best way to say it. And I'm— maybe I'm taking a Catholic take on this, but like, it's like a full demonic possession, um, when you're in the throes of these drugs. And I mean, this was actually a great benefit of A&E doing intervention because people could really see these moments where people will choose the drug over their family. They will choose the drug over their kids. They will choose, you know, they'll choose the drug over literally anything. And for people who, and I would, I actually tend to agree with you that I've wondered myself if there's something genetic because I'm not wired that way. Or maybe I just haven't found the drug that would do that to me. But like, I would say that like, I've just never been, never had something and was like, oh, I just need to have that again or want it again. And I've seen friends that they have something once and they're like, want to do this every second.

And I go, that's very interesting. Like, it's almost like you're, you're made of something different.

I'm certain of that. And the science is certain of that in many ways. I mean, we all can, uh, I think that we all can, um, associate with, um, understand addiction at, um, more or less devastating levels. So for instance, where's your phone? I mean, you have a, you basically have a packet of heroin.

Right.

We all do in our pocket. Constantly giving us that dopamine, which by the way, we can get to talking about that because I think that we are not nearly as divided as a people as we think that we are. I think that that bag of heroin in everybody's pocket is feeding them a lot of that division. But is, so we can all kind of understand the compulsion to do things that aren't, um, that clearly aren't benefiting us, like staying up, uh, until 3 o'clock in the morning and going through your For You page on TikTok.

Mm-hmm.

Um, every mother, father, uh, can watch their teenager, um, uh, do that. And go, God, this is awful, and I'm gonna take his phone away. And then they turn back to their phone and they start going through their phone. Like, and I, and I'm, you know, I am not any better. I, so we can kind of all understand that compulsion. It's when the compulsion becomes just so, the blast radius continues to grow. So the difference between being a, um, uh, you know, addicted to your phone, um, and being addicted to crack cocaine, I'm not saying are the same, but at least we can kind of get a little bit of an understanding of the physiology of that, of the way in which the brain actually works.

Um, but it's like the micro versus the macro.

Yeah. And everybody has the micro, but so you can, you can see the, the, the micro impact of it. Um, and, but I think that one of the reasons that why people are, um, so like shocked by my story, right? And, and by the way, and we're able to conflate. So if the New York Post every day for 6 years, uh, runs a, a picture on, uh, you know, on online, I mean, I think they literally at one point did like, uh, 1.5 stories of me a day for an entire 18-month period. Okay. And, um, in each, it didn't matter what the subject was. It was a picture of me naked with a prostitute, with whatever, and with a, with crack, with a crack pipe in my lips. Now what, like, I, so I don't get mad at people when they go, like, was that your cocaine? Like, Well, number one, you know the White House. It's like, this just doesn't make any sense. I had 7 Secret Service agents with me at any given time everywhere I went. The idea that I was in the Situation Room and would decide to drop off a— I mean, that— but beyond that silliness is the— is I don't blame people for not realizing that I have worked my effing ass off.

I mean, in— this environment, the proudest thing that I've ever done is stay clean and sober through all of that. Every piece of it, right? Both the trials, through the accusations, through the, you know, Alexander Smirnovs and Gallofs and, and, you know, Konstantin Kuliks and, and Lev Parnases and Rudys and Steve Bannons and ev— all of that. Is that purely because of the love of the people around me and my willingness to own it all, I'm sitting in front of you.

Yeah.

And you're not taking that away from me.

Right.

No. And by the way, that's the beauty of it.

Yeah.

The realization at one point is that you can try. I have no fear. No fear. And, um, that doesn't— and that's why I'm here more than anything is because I, like, I don't— I, I, I probably, you know, I'm certain that we disagree on a lot of stuff, but there used to be a time, Candace, where you and I could sit down together and disagree about tax policy.

Mm-hmm.

And disagree about, um, you know, the, the disagree with the Catholic Church's view on abortion or disagree with, I mean, whatever the subject may be and still be able to go have a meal together.

Right. I talk about that often on my show. Like I, I would, back when I was left-leaning in college, my best friend was Republican conservative. Like it, it wasn't so at each other's throats and hating each other and wanting to destroy one another. And you know, you could kind of see the good and the bad and go, well, I'm, you know, this is why I have this perspective. And perspectives could change. And that was allowed too. You know, I think about what it was that just revisiting what made a lot of people, including myself, so angry about you. Or I guess it wasn't really about you. It was the gaslighting. It was the letter that came from people saying it was Russian propaganda. That is what is driving us crazy about the Epstein files right now. It's what's actually leading, ironically, to the collapse of the MAGA support is we don't want to be gaslit. And to be fair, it wasn't you. That's why it was so refreshing when you were like, yes, I had a crack addiction. This is me. I did this. I was with hookers. But you weren't speaking for you. And they were, there were literally a bunch of people that were coming out and saying, this is not real.

And that is the most infuriating thing for, because everyone's average, everyone can connect with addiction. Everyone could have this conversation actually, if you would come out and, and I probably in that environment, obviously it maybe that would, there would've been different result because we were at each other's throats.

No, exactly.

But that is what made people so angry. Yeah. It was like, nope, he never smoked crack. It wasn't real. Yeah. The laptop is Russian propaganda. Like guys, What is this?

Yeah, by the way, is that— here's the problem, is that Steve Bannon saved, and Rudy Giuliani saved the quote-unquote laptop, which by the way is bullshit. The, the, like, if we can agree on that gaslighting, I will agree on the gaslighting of this, is that, is that it was never a quote-unquote laptop. There was a hard drive of stolen and hacked material wherever it came from, whether it came from a Delaware repair shop or whether it came, like Lev Parnas says, from Dmitry Firtash, who was trying to sell a hard drive of Hunter Biden's in Ukraine, you know, that they were looking for before the laptop repair shop guy was ever the twinkle in the eye. Just go back and look at the record, okay? So here's the thing. Is you're absolutely right. And the, the, and, and this is like the, the freedom of being able to say this. It's like, yeah, they should have let me go out and talk. Yeah, but it was 2 weeks before the campaign, and then it, and, and, and then the, the election was over. Steve Bannon, it goes on, uh, and with his buddy Gao, um, you know, the Chinese billionaire that's now in prison, and you know, that, that is like a Chinese spy or whatever, you know, where he got arrested on his boat and all that crap, is it— I mean, there is a— go listen to it.

Go listen to the recorded conversation in which they say, like, the laptop, like, we got them. We, like, you know, so we put all— we collected all the salacious pictures and we put them out there. And then Rudy went out and stood on the steps of the Newcastle County Courthouse with Bernie Kerik and said, this contains child, child exploitation. Like pure, you know, I mean pure bullshit, just bullshit. So on both sides you have this reaction, you know, which I don't think was necessarily a coordinated reaction in the sense that what do you do in 2 weeks? And so they come up with this and they say, and I don't get to go out and say, you know, no, I was, but you know what I did is that come April, I write a book and I tell everybody I was addicted to crack.

Mm-hmm.

And here's my story and here's what happened. And here is the, all of the rooms that no one would ever want to admit to, to being in that I was in. And, uh, and, and it was like a blip on the radar because everybody was now fighting about whether there was kind of a suppressed story on Twitter and whether there was a, um, this gaslighting from, you know, and by the way, I am not here to defend any of them.

But then it's part of like the political machine where they're like, we have 2 weeks to go to the election, we're going to do this denial, you know, because we can't afford this right now, essentially. And so, and then we're going to table this, make it past these 2 weeks.

Yeah.

And then by that time, first and foremost, your father won. Yeah, right. So, uh, you know, and so people are angry, they feel like the election's been stolen and that there was this entire collusion to cover a laptop, which if it was on the other side, they may have done too. This is what DC is, it's politics. But that That is where I think the anger came from.

Yeah.

And it was just like, I get it. How dare you gaslight us? Yeah. And then people then start making you this focal point of like, it never had anything to do with me. Right. It was kind of bigger than you at that point.

You know, you know what the laptop proved?

That you were a crackhead.

There you go.

That you were deep in the throes of crack addiction.

All this other bullshit, you know, bribery and all these other things that they investigated up and down during the Trump administration with a Trump-appointed US attorney. With the Trump-appointed US Attorney, the only US Attorney in the, in the country to stay on and continue to prosecute me, who then became special counsel after I got a plea deal because I paid my taxes late and I paid them with penalties and interest. Mm-hmm. And I owned a gun for 11 days while they say I was addicted and, and check that box. Mm-hmm. That's it. Everybody has all the information. It's not like the Department of Justice has the digital, my digital footprint and every text message, every email, and there's not a single one in which you find that would in any way support the really serious accusations of enriching, my father enriching himself somehow, or none of it. None of it's there. So I own whatever you want to call it. I own the laptop. Come, you know what? We can go through it together if you're willing to like avert your eyes to the tragedy of addiction. I mean, just the absolute tragedy of it.

Yeah.

But man, oh man, we have not— there is no space for that in discourse anymore. There's no space for the nuance of, you know, well, that was addiction, that wasn't corruption. You know, I did not do any business through entire 4 years I, I became a painter. You know why I became a painter? Because it literally saved my life. I painted my whole life. And Melissa instinctively knew that I literally needed to like occupy my hands in early recovery, like 12 hours a day. Like just, you know, like to be able to focus on the, not the, the crushing weight of the consequences of years of addiction. And so I just sat and I painted and I painted and I painted and I decided to have a show in the gallery and, you know, and offer my paintings for sale. And New York Post comes out and says, Hunter Biden's selling his paintings for half a million dollars. I have never sold a painting nor offered a painting for half a million dollars in my frigging life. And by the way, everybody knows this because every painting that I sold, everybody that bought a painting had to pay about a quarter million dollars to defend themselves before an impeachment Uh, the hearing.

Go read the transcripts of people under oath. But regardless is this, is the laptop absolutely proved nothing, but it became this, this cultural touchstone. It was like it, it embodied the Biden crime family. And if you wanted to be able to believe that, not wanted to be able to believe that, if you believe that because you're being told that. By people that you trust that have told you that your election was stolen, that your democracy was thwarted, that the process was unfair, is that all you had to do, and I get this, is look at the pictures. Mike doesn't look like a good guy to me. Right.

'Cause you weren't a good guy in the pictures.

No.

Yeah.

Smoking crack in a motel room with a prostitute.

Right.

Like, you know what I mean? Like they come out and like they're saying, oh, like they saw, Like, I admit it all. Not only admit it all, I own it all. I will, I will own everything, the worst of it, all of it.

And then being cute, like, I mean, now in retrospect, and things have changed, I mean, times have changed. I, like I said, I was one of the chief people that was really angry about it, and it did feel— that was the exact reason why, when I re-examine it, it was the gaslighting. It's the same reason why I'm angry with Trump over the Epstein thing. It's like, I can't come back from media gaslighting. The Trump thing is worse because it came from his own mouth, the gaslighting. So it wasn't like people trying to cover it up, it was like Trump being like, what Epstein files? Are we still talking about the Epstein files? And so, uh, but then things kind of changed, I think, with time also, because I was very— I would just definitely say I was close with Don Jr., traveled a lot with him through the, the Hunter Biden laptop scandal. We talked about it, this corruption, da da da, can't believe they denied it, all these photos coming out. And then we get whatever this, you know, Trump family is now. And it's like, man, I think it was a historian that wrote on X exactly how I feel, which is I wish I could go back to the days where I thought like Hunter Biden's art was the most corrupt deal that was done in politics.

And now we're going, okay, you know, we stood behind Trump, we fought, we shared the photos of Hunter Biden to the extent that we could, and now we have their family engaged in so many, um, corrupt deals— the meme coins, the taking advantage of people. And you go, okay, well, what we actually have is DC is corrupt, politics is corrupt. And I, I think it is kind of a unifying point, not to excuse, you know, the gaslighting of people for 2 weeks, which made people super angry. Um, but I, I do think it's just a different time where people are kind of going back and examining. I, and I feel actually terrible realizing that you were finally clean and then it's just this humiliation ritual over and over and over again of people putting everything out there and not realizing also your kids are facing this consequence as well. Um, which people do not think about a lot of times when they publish stories. Like, I even was reticent and didn't cover the Kristi Noem thing because the first thing that came to my mind, um, do they got kids? Was their kids like, I'm like, these are kids that are about to go to college.

Like, and so, and why are they doing this? Because she's in politics. Right. And so this becomes, they don't think about the children. And yeah, I mean, I think I now, now that I have kids too, I think there's just like, wow, they don't. Sign up for what I do for podcasting. Kids don't like sign up for that kind of stuff.

Yeah. They, you know, number one though, kids are way more resilient than, than you think. So much tougher. And, uh, and I know, um, they, the, I, my girls have like got their stuff and, and I, and they, they love me and deeply and I can 100% accept that love now and return it with everything that I have to offer. But you're, you know, part of what you're describing is politics in memoriam, you know, part of it. But something's changed, Candace. There is a meanness, a willingness to adopt very, very un-American tactics against our opponents because it become a zero-sum game. It's not just that I disagree with you, it's you need to be punished. You need to be punished for what you believe. You know, there's this incredible show. I really want to meet them one day. You've probably, I don't know if you've listened to it too. It's called The Necessary Conversation. Have you listened to that? Incredible. It's a brother and a sister who are progressives. One lives in LA and like one lives in Austin or something like that. And she runs a bakery, the sister, and a mom and dad, and they are ultra MAGA.

And I think they were like in, you know, Missouri somewhere. Okay. And I mean like, don't take their caps off. Trump literally can do no wrong. He's playing 4D chess on the Epstein thing. The, you know, I know he said no war in Iran, but you know, uh, he must have a reason for it and you can't convince— like, literally that. But they have this conversation and they have real issues with each other. Like, the daughter gets really mad at the dad. Like, Dad, you were a jerk to us when we were kids. You made me— but Then she has this conversation with her mom who loves animals and like taught her about empathy and they would adopt all, you know, these animals and they would, uh, and you, you find out like her dad taught, you know, or coached all of their Little League games and she was a softball player and she, if a kid couldn't like afford the uniform, dad would quietly go out and buy the uniform and he's awful on this thing, by the way. Like, he's like, he's, And like in terms of the way that he speaks and he speaks to them and he's like tough and I don't give a shit and, you know, drop a bomb on 'em kind of, you know, thing.

But it's so informative is that before, that's a normal family. That's a thing. Before, you and I could meet at a restaurant in Georgetown and your husband and my wife and we could have dinner together. And like with Tucker, I knew Tucker, you know what I mean? And, um, and like you could have dinner together and think that what Tucker was saying was crazy and I don't agree with, and I don't agree with, you know, half the stuff, but you know what it didn't mean? It didn't mean that I thought that he should be tried for treason and executed. And that's what happened to me. And I mean that not figuratively, I mean it literally. That's what people were saying, and that's what people of real importance were saying. Those were the words that were coming out of the, the, the mouths, and, and I'm paraphrasing, of people like, um, like Steve Bannon and people like Rudy Giuliani, people of authority. And it changes everything is how can you even have a discussion? For instance, how could I go out and talk about How could I respond? Was that cocaine mine?

Mm-hmm.

Like, what do you want? You want me to take a drug test? Because I'm taking a drug test almost weekly for the Department of, uh, uh, Corrections and, and Probation. You know, I have a probation officer. You know, I'm on release until trial. You know, but what do you do? Do you, is that the statement that you make to the, to the New York Post? It's impossible. Becomes impossible. So what do you do? You realize this, and I don't know if you feel this way in your, in your own life, is that, you know what the real problem is? It's not out there. It's not that person. If I could just get Steve Bannon to tell the truth. If I could just get Rudy Giuliani to stop lying about me. If I could just get Konstantin Kulak to say that he wrote the— if I, like, it's not there. You realize in order to survive, it's all inside. Every single piece of it is about figuring out how to love yourself, not living that shame. And in order for you to be able to be of service first, or, you know, Melissa, like, return the beautiful thing that she gave me, which was a chance.

Mm-hmm.

That to be of service to my dad, to return the unconditional love, which is not love without consequences, not love without accountability. It's just knowing that no matter what, even through the consequences and being held accountable, that that person still loves me. Mm.

All right, you guys, when I think about the future, I picture the little moments that matter most. Family dinners, bedtime stories, lazy Sundays at home. The people that we love are the center of everything that we're building. But there's one conversation that so many of us put off, and that's usually surrounding what would happen if we were not here. That's really what life insurance is about. It's about making sure your family is protected, supported, and able to move forward no matter what life brings. And honestly, getting covered today is so much easier than most people think. That's why I love Ethos. With Ethos, you can apply online in just minutes. No medical exams, no waiting rooms. Just answer a few health questions and you could be covered the very same day. And what really stands out to me is that Ethos helps match you with coverage that actually fits your life, your goals, and your budget. With up to $3 million in coverage and plans starting around $30 a month, protecting your family can feel a whole lot more doable because peace of mind should not be complicated. So get your free instant quote today at ethos.com/kandice. Again, that's ethos.com/kandice. Application times and rates may vary.

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You had smoked crack. Well, you know, we were just powerful. We'll cover it. You know, we'll do it. Like, that's the con, like, whatever. We, we've had so much power. We've acquired so much power. And then when I sort of saw you really defending your dad over this George Clooney thing, I was like, okay, this is just a normal father-son relationship. Like, people can't apply that for some reason when you're talking about a president, uh, or, or somebody that has access to power. But he just loves his dad, and this is the way any normal person would defend their dad if they said something about your father, if they said something about your son. Like, this is so normal that I think that's what, yeah, was a bit like, um, arresting for me. I was like, this is very normal dynamic. He doesn't care if Jake Tapper's on his side, he doesn't care if George Clooney is on his side. That's his dad that you're talking about, and he's having a natural reaction that I would have If someone was talking about my dad, my grandparents, my sister, my cousin, even when they do something wrong, by the way, like it's like, okay, no, but like, that's my family member who did something wrong.

And so you have no right. And I will, I will breathe fire on someone. And that's kind of, and you're right. And now it's getting dirtier. The games people are playing are dirtier. And it is about wanting you to feel unsafe. And I think that is something that is so new when you have people posting your address, posting where you are, knowing that you have children and We are, I really do, and it is over perspective. Like for me, it was me changing my mind on Israel and suddenly I'm getting the New York Post treatment and I'm getting all these people coming after me and I'm going, this is my perspective. You're welcome to try to debate me on why I feel the way I feel about what is, because I have two eyes about what's happening in Gaza. But to do these tactics where you're trying to destroy people is, that feels very, very new to me.

Yeah. And that, that, that, let's be honest, not let's be honest. I hate that phrase. Okay. I got it from my perspective is this. I know where that started and that started when, uh, uh, Donald Trump from rally stages started the where's Hunter or DL, where's Hunter call and response crowds. And then they printed t-shirts and then they made hats and then they made mugs. Where's Hunter? And then they showed up at my door. I didn't have any security. I didn't have anybody. I can't afford that in my life, particularly at that time. And they literally showed up at my door with, with bullhorns and MAGA hats and, uh, on the direct— and the, the way that they got there is the New York Post published on the front page, on its cover, an aerial view of my home with the address. And then in the thing said, and you could— if you stand here at this, uh, you know, on this part of the street, you can see— and there are floor-to-ceiling windows and, you know, and so they They showed up.

Wow.

And Alyssa was, what, 6 months pregnant at the time? You know, she got in the car because she was alone at the time and sped off. And they followed her and they ran her off the road. You know, she panicked. And then, you know, she got in— they did it again and they surrounded her. And that's new, man.

That is new.

And like, similarly to you, is it like, before I sat down, I heard where you live, what your, the level of security that you have or didn't have, and you know, what your perimeter of your property is like. How the hell do I know that? And how is that even remotely safe? How? Because you have people who now, you're, you basically spoke your truth and they decided that you cannot exist. And so therefore, I don't know if it's going to happen, but for some reason I think it's appropriate for me to say, tell you what Candace's address is, who lives there, and the level of security she has.

Yeah, Tim Pool doing that was one of the most— it was so obvious what he was doing.

My dad said to me is I have to stop saying the F word.

No, it was— no, like seriously, that to me was like, it's a declaration of war. Like they know I homeschool my kids, they know, and he's describing the security apparatus and he's doing it in this rant trying to be impassioned about the fact that I don't support Israel or I don't support whatever. Whatever his motivation was, there was zero reason that you would be describing the perimeter of my house outside of wanting someone to get harmed. And like, I first, first of all, like, I'm not like Tucker Carlson, and I say this to people all the time. That's why I get so worried, because when Tucker gets accosted in public, he just has this like total happy warrior demeanor. I will claw someone's eyes out for my kids. Like, I am not the property to try. We will shoot you. Like, I will shoot you and I will kill you and I will happily go to prison. Before you have one opportunity to even make me— I don't want you to think about whether you're going to hurt my kids.

You sound exactly like Melissa.

And that's just, that's me. That's just me. And I've said it over and over on my podcast, I will, I will smile in my mugshot, okay? Because I did the right thing and I have no qualms about that. So when he did that, I was like, okay, this little beanie boy. Okay, little beanie boy. I see exactly what you're doing. The whole world sees what you're doing and you are doing something that you, because you want my children to get harmed. And then if something happens to them, you're going to go, well, I don't know. How that happened as I was describing the perimeter of her home and talking about what her security is, which was inaccurate.

Well, Candace, but that's— but that's like, what are we even talking about? That's exactly why they do it, is that even if the chance is this small, the reason that they do it is exactly that, is to— is to make you really afraid. Not for yourself, for your 4 kids, for your family. For the people that work around you, it's like, I, and by the way, I'll tell you, is that I have the same approach that I think Tucker has to it, which is, and I don't know, it is, which is basically like, I can handle it. Like, I can diffuse a situation. I can do it. Melissa, people kill you.

Yeah. I'll kill you and I'll ask questions later.

And she did exactly the same. And I, you know what really worries me is that. Is that is all of a sudden we're, we're all talking about violence. Like, you're talking about violence. Violence is defense. But now you're talking about the violence, and then they kind of like go, oh, you're gaslighting us, this is bullshit, you don't— you, you're fine, you're really rich, and you this and that, you can take care of yourself. It's like, bullshit. Did you see what just happened to my best friend?

Yeah, look, I mean, we just watched Charlie get— and he had a full security apparatus. Yeah, we still don't know what happened to Charlie Kirk. Um, there's zero interest. That's another thing that just completely, for me, was like done with Trump whatsoever. Like, I mean, there's, there's just no way for someone who came from the inside and watched the work that Charlie did to get these people elected. Don Jr. was like a brother to Charlie, literally like a brother to him.

Yeah.

Um, and to see the Trump brothers, to see Donald Trump himself, Kash Patel, who Charlie pushed for him to leave the FBI, had him on his podcast. JD Vance, like, you know, came out of nowhere. Charlie was like not sleeping to make that happen. And to see all of these people have zero interest in the obvious holes in the story, even if ultimately the holes get filled and there's a picture that makes sense, which I put that at 0% chance. But let's just, you know, the fact that they have zero interest and they're just accepting the narrative— like, what this has done to me, and I've said this, I'm just done with politics. I'm just done with politics because I can't even begin to comprehend it. And again, that element of gaslighting that's happening here, where they're pretending that the people who are noticing that none of this is making sense are the crazy ones, and everyone else who's like, nope, turn the chapter, a week later it's all solved. And this is how it went down and none of it makes sense, but just accept this slop. It is the most infuriating thing and it's just fully removed the scales of my eyes and I've stopped with this left versus right, Democrat versus Republican.

I'm like, this is sheer evil versus good. This is like sheer evil.

But by the way, for real, exactly. Exactly. It is good versus evil.

Yeah.

It, it, the, they, they have torn the mask off of this. I said to you before, is that I pray to God that by the end of this, that you, you think of me as a friend, because if anything ever happened to me, I want you, you and Melissa team up. You'd fit. Like, oh my God.

It's not happening with Harley Kirk.

And the criticism of you for asking the questions for someone who was like a brother to you, it's like, What the eff are you talking about?

Yeah, that's the actual— how dare you care?

Coming from someone who you've attacked and you've— and politically, you've, you know, had all of your criticism, which I have no problem with, and we disagree on so many things. But I listen to you and I go, right on. Like Epstein, like, you want to figure out why they don't want to let the, the, the, the Release all the Epstein files. All you gotta do is literally look at a picture of Trump standing on his stage at his inauguration and look behind him. Yeah. I mean, it's like every single person.

He's protecting his donors without question.

I mean, it's crazy. Like Palos and Poli and this and that and the other thing and all of these things. It's like, okay. And by the way, I like, anyway, my point is, is yet, yeah. It's like, when is it, when are people gonna kind of wake up? To the fact, and it's not left or right, this is a really, really horrible group of people that are pulling strings that impact us all. And they make us think that because you and I disagree on, you know, the graduated tax rate or some social issue is that we are sworn enemies. I mean, not just, You know, like sworn enemies that I deserve violence.

And I, and I could see them, and it does seem like both sides have woken up without question. My audience is now split and I still say what I believe. I haven't changed my position on abortion. I'm Catholic. I have, you know, there's nothing that has changed. I think they're just hearing me for the first time. And I, I do think there was something about the Charlie Kirk assassination that everyone just sort of looked up, you know, we just sort of all looked up at the machine and was like, wait a second. What is this? Because they expected Trump to be ride or die. They expected cash. I mean, wow, this is going to be solved in, in the clearest way possible because the entire political apparatus that has the power and the Department of Justice is in the hands of Charlie Kirk's friends. Like, that was how I felt, right? This is it. No, whoever did this is never going to get away with it because these are Charlie's friends. And what did we get?

They're the people that Charlie Kirk made.

Charlie Kirk made these people. That's exactly right. Let a youth revolution to get these people elected in power. He was ride or die to—

The level of disloyalty or fear, I don't know what it is.

Disloyalty. Disloyalty may be guided by fear, but it's still disloyalty. So disturbing. It's disturbing. And I cannot forgive Trump, the Trump family, what they have done or what they have not done for Charlie.

Can I keep one of these? Yeah. Who's first?

Yeah. And I'm full-on, I'm like, call me again. I'm like you where I'm like, that— what is the shame tactic of the day? You're calling me a conspiracy theorist? Great. I'm like, you'd be a fool to believe the stuff that they're telling us today, the stories they're telling us. Um, I mean, it's— it is something that is just so disturbing. And I think that the Charlie assassination has— it was just so crazy, like, because he was so Republican conservative. But I think it's brought people together in a productive way.

Yeah. Um, look, I'm, I'm I'm here and you're here. And the, um, I, I really think that we're not unique, you know, I think very, very kind of emblematic is that like, I'm like, let's put the past, you know, not behind us. Like I'll explain anything you want. I'll talk about anything that you want to talk about that you still have questions about or that anybody is, but, but like, this isn't right. This, we're witnessing right now, is not right. The level of corruption, the obfuscation, the, um, I mean, whether it's Butler or Charlie or these things, that, that it's just not right. And I mean, it's so glaringly not right, it's almost as if they're just saying, like, fuck you, they're not even trying.

Like, we don't even get good psyops anymore. And that's what I keep saying. I'm like, they're— it's so disrespectful. That we're not even getting good, good psyops anymore. Like, we're supposed to believe he survived 4— what do we have, 4 assassination attempts? The first president that's ever survived 4 assassination attempts. They quietly— they lie to us about things. They make a big deal, and then they make it want to, you know, it's going to go away. They're going to keep pretending and telling us that this is a totally normal grieving widow. Okay, no one's buying that. Like, that something's just not right here. Everyone can see that this is not how you would react to your husband being shot. And this sort of just, I'm fine, and I feel like 2 weeks later I fully accept the narrative, I have no interest in anything It's over. Let's close it. I forgive him. Let's move on. You're asking us to abandon our common sense and our humanity is what you're asking us to do. And that kind of seems like where we're at. Like, they're insisting on this. And I'm going, where is this going to go?

Because we're not doing the thing they want us to do. Like, they are just constantly giving us slop all the time. I mean, even the recent White House Correspondents' Dinner, there was so much theater to it after, so much theater. And now it's kind of— Okay, Secret Service maybe shot each other and we're just going to kind of quietly move on. But Trump needs a ballroom. Like, that's a normal reaction. Hey, there's a shooting duck. Hey, well, we better get that ballroom.

By the way, it's going to cost $1 billion now. And by the way, it's not from donors. And by the way, we're going to do it. Like, it's just like, it's just the constant— like, talk about gaslighting.

It's been— this has been just this. And we're not even— are we even a year into Trump's second term?

We're a little over a year.

A little over a year in a second. And I don't think there's just been— I'm like, how are we going to deal with 4 years of just being gaslit every 5 seconds? And told that MAGA, literally MAGA, is not MAGA anymore. And what was actually never Trump, which was actually pro-Hillary Clinton if you think about it, that's now MAGA. It's literally people who have been against Trump the entire time who are lecturing us about this stuff, like the Mark Levins and the Ben Shapiros and like, we're MAGA, the Laura Loomers. Like, you know, we're MAGA now. Okay, great. Then I'm not MAGA. Like, I am— I've never agreed with these people. I am opposed to these people's ideas. I am opposed to unleashing an actual lunatic who has had to be Baker Acted and put on psych 5150 holds by her own parents who fear her. I'm opposed to that actually being unleashed upon the population.

Melissa always uses that 5150. I had that. She's good. That person's going to get 5150. What are you talking about? What's 5150?

You're telling us this is MAGA now. Like, this is what we do. And so it's been a, it's a, it's been a challenging time because you do have to have like the humility to admit that I'm quite embarrassed about it.

The president of the United States of America has posted images of himself as a king, I think half a dozen times now. Yeah. Like when are we, when, when are people gonna wake up and go, okay, like if that's what you want. And by the way, If that's what you want, then you know what? I know that there is a, that there is a vast majority of Americans, but some that are really going to really, really have a problem.

Yeah.

Really have a problem.

I am aga.

God forbid. And this whole thing is, is that I, we, we all need allies now because they do have an enormous amount of power. You know, one of the things that I always think about is, is that it's so easy to silence people, but it would be particularly easy, for instance, to go like, if, if someone— like the whole cocaine in the White House thing. I, by the way, I look at the— your premise is that, like, I— you can believe whatever you want to believe, but I know my truth, and that's all I can do.

And you'd prefer crack anyways.

100%.

Okay.

And I would not—

evidence is overwhelming.

I would not have forgotten it in a cubby.

Not if you're crawling on the floor.

To go into the Situation Room, which I've never been in before. Okay, exactly. I mean, Jesus Christ. Anyway, but my point is, is that what if they, you know, what if I'm flying back to LA and, you know, or when I go through security and they find drugs in my bag? Who would believe me that I'm so clean and sober? Who would possibly believe me?

No one.

No one. No one. And I could take drug tests and I could prove it and I could, you know, I mean, literally, I pack my bag in front of a witness everywhere I go so that at least I would be able to say that. Here's the crazy part is the idea that I would think that there is a government in power capable of doing that says everything anyone needs to know about where we are.

Yeah.

The idea that you feel unsafe in the United States of America because you disagree with the current administration on an issue that 70% of Americans agree with you on.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you know, I think we all can agree is that we need to stop the wholesale murder of a population in Gaza.

Mm-hmm.

I, you know, whatever you think about my father's policy as it relates, I always say to people, You know one thing he didn't do? He didn't greenlight a, to turn Gaza into a Trump golf course, you know, with the maître d' being Jared Kushner with $4 billion in Saudi money.

It's despicable.

Despicable.

It's just like they did the deal before. I mean, when he posted that, I'll never forget that, posted the Trump, like, here's what Gaza could be. And like, I could have my name on a building.

And I was like, but literally that's what they're doing.

This is dead children. Like, you're literally saying this is all going to be fine because we're going to get up a Trump resort or something. Positively despicable. I mean, just positively despicable, tasteless, indefensible. And it's not a joke though. It's not a joke. And that is the deal.

And that's what they're doing.

Mm-hmm.

Literally doing. And by the way, they're doing it out in the open. I mean, I just, it's not as if they're hiding it in any way.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, they are making deals as they go through. And you know, like I always say to people, it's like, you had such a problem with me. I didn't do any business.

I'll take the paintings.

I didn't do a single business. I, you know, every single person that bought a painting from me. During the time my dad was there in the, in office. I had 2 shows and probably sold a total of 20 paintings and 13 of them to my best friend, you know, and that's it. That's it. And you had a problem. Not you. Well, you too. But they had a problem with me as being this emblematic emblem of corruption. These guys, okay, Don Jr. got the single largest loan guarantee from the Department of Defense ever handed out of over $600 million for an energy company, a fusion energy company, of which he has zero, zero experience in. They have gotten Jared Kushner, who's never run a private equity fund, has now a $4 billion private equity fund with 80% of the money coming from the Middle East, of which he continues to raise as he is the ambassador at large on behalf of the Trump administration, not as a political appointee, but simply as a son-in-law of the president.

Mm-hmm.

To come to a peace deal of a war in Iran that they started that has cost the economy billions and billions of dollars for a war nobody wanted, that every president before them, before him, was pressured by the Israelis to get into. And every single one, regardless what you think of them, from George, from Jimmy Carter through President Reagan, through both of the Bushes, through Clinton, through my dad. Said, you're out of your damn minds, and here's the reason why. This is what's going to happen. So who benefits right now? You know who benefits? The people that are making trades of billions of dollars on market manipulation that occurs. It's literally out in the open. But who's gonna— who's gonna, you know, who's gonna—

you will not get a disagreement out of me. Like, I am so far off the Trump train, he's posting— oh no, by the way, and I'm not even saying it's embarrassing, but it is embarrassing. It is embarrassing because We got behind him as the answer to corruption. We thought he was going to be this outsider, you know, he's going to go to DC, he's going to drain the swamp, and then he became the Loch Ness Monster, you know. And so it's like, I don't know what it is about that swamp, but you get swimming in it and it's like people do this. And yes, it has been for Israel. Not to say that Trump wasn't pro-Israel. Most presidents actually are pro-Israel when they go in there, and if they go anti-Israel, they kind of end up dead. But it's, uh, or they sort of get kicked out if you want to talk about Nixon and the scandal of Watergate, which I've revisited I did think that that had a lot more to do with his shifting viewpoints, but, uh, that wasn't the issue. Like, I was pro-Israel, generally speaking, not very educated about the topic.

It's this level of corruption that you're talking about, uh, when you are willing to let real Americans be harmed, their day-to-day lives be harmed, they're suffering at the gas pump, their groceries are expensive, all at the— so that you could further enrich. How much more money does just Trump family need? I mean, just like literally How much more money do you need like that you're going to allow this to happen? Don't, don't you just want to have now the legacy of being a good president?

I mean, this is, yeah, I was saying to you about like the cryptocurrency thing. I think there's incredible promise in cryptocurrency. I believe in the, you know, meme token. I want to, I, I'll do something one day to create a community and there's, there's really good reasons to do it. There's really interesting ways. And I know people can disagree. I just happen to be kind of like a, Crypto guy. Crypto. I mean, just because of my under— I think it is incredible freedom in a world in which we've been controlled by banks. So if you have the same problem that I have with Big Pharma banks and, and, and the Fed and these like, like where does money come from kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Is it like, I truly believe in, in what, uh, Satoshi, uh, you know, kind of the manifesto of, of Bitcoin. But that's just me regardless. My point is, Is that they had such an opportunity. They had such an opportunity. I'll give you this. I want you to look at the, the, the conspiracy theories. Go look up Gal Luft and Alexander Smirnov. They're the two principal individuals that made the only claim that people hung their hat in, in Congress and elsewhere, as it relates to my dad in corruption, bribery and stuff like that.

One of them is a fugitive from justice wanted by Interpol and the United States government, Gal Luft, who is a former IDF officer who is believed to be living in Israel as a fugitive, which the Israelis will not help us locate. And the other one is Alexander Smirnov. Who is a known Israeli intelligence agent. Those are the two people who was in a prison in the United States, serving 6 years, and they can't find him. Bureau of Prison can't find him in his prison, in the prison. He is on furlough, but no one knows where he's been furloughed to. Within the, the only passport that he has is an Israeli passport. There are forces that I used to say, oh, this is bullshit. Have you ever read, um, uh, The Devil's Chessboard?

Yes. I, I, I, Alan Dulles, looking into the CIA, I, I read this book Chaos that then led me to The Devil's Chessboard. It's actually on our list for books to read for the book club.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It'll knock you. Chaos. Yeah. Uh, CIA, the Manson stuff. That was the one that knocked me and I was like, what the heck is our government? What is going on? And you read The Devil's Chessboard and you realize the, that anyway, what the CIA is capable of, and you think it's all a conspiracy. And I think that's what they're fearful of, is that people have awakened to that. And so when they're kind of trying to throw red meat now, which you see them doing, the left, the right, it's just not landing the same anymore because we just realized that there is a double chessboard.

That's why I have, in terms of the left, like, you think I'm gonna defend the, um, uh, the, the DC elite of the, of the left? They, they crushed my dad. They went, when, when they saw their chance, they did everything in their power to, um, uh, to, to push, push him out. You know why? Because he was never part of that club. He was never part of the Epstein class. He lived in Delaware. Everybody that think, you can think whatever you want about my dad, is that literally my dad never bought a stock or a bond because he made a commitment in 1972 when he was 30 years old after Watergate, never to own a stock or a bond. And he did. My dad was the poorest person ever to enter the presidency and the poorest person, not poorest, I mean, he had money, he'd wrote and written a book and he'd done well, but he had the least amount of wealth entering the presidency in modern years since 1900 than anybody. And when he was in the United States Senate, he was not only the poorest man in the Senate, not poor again, he made over, $170,000 on average over the course of 45 years.

But not just the Senate, but 535 members of Congress. He was never a part of that club. And that's what I wish, like, you knew. That's what I wish they knew. And I am not here in any way to defend, you know, the, you know, the D.C. elites of my own party. I think that they're just as complicit in all this bullshit.

No, without question. Like the Nancy Pelosi's. What's your, um, what's your opinion on Kamala then? Would you like her?

Look, I like—

you didn't definitely—

no, you know what, I did. And I, I don't want to say anything. I don't— I didn't know the vice president that well.

Okay.

You know, I mean, I— and, and she was always nice to me personally. And so that was my, you know, you know, uh, but I didn't have the other thing that people think that I was like living at the White House. I, I literally didn't leave my home because it was really hard to, to leave. I stayed, you know, in the hill that I lived on until the fires came. Um, uh, you know, that's, that's where I was. I was with Beau and Melissa and, um, trying to make it through. And not trying to make it through, thriving, making it through what would otherwise have seemed like a horrible, horrible life from any outsider's perspective. So I'm not judging the question, but I don't want to shit on the vice president because I have no reason to necessarily.

She did nothing personal to you. She was nice to you.

Never did anything personal to me. I think that she is, you know, so kind of machine stuff. Yeah. Exactly. You know, and I don't, in terms of all of that stuff, I'm, uh, you know, I think I'm tough enough to realize that, that, you know, that's part of like when you get to politics at that level, I, people kind of, uh, I think have this misperception of me is that for 50 years I was a crack addict and I was that picture. You know? Mm-hmm. I mean, I went to Yale Law School, you know, I served in the Clinton administration. I was chairman of the board of the US-UN World Food Program, which is the largest humanitarian organization in the world. I served on 16 boards before I ever joined the board of Burisma or anything. Um, I taught at Georgetown for— I was, you know, taught at the master's program at the School of Foreign Service for 4 years.

I actually didn't know that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that was something that surprised me too, not to be rude, but I thought you were dumb.

Yeah.

Because I don't know, maybe because Meghan McCain was on The View for too long or something. And I was like, here we go, just like rich political kids. Like, I mean, she is just, she's just so dumb. And yet she's just always she's here, like they're just giving her stuff. And so I think there's also that perception where it's their— rich kids don't work, aren't smart. And so I was kind of expecting you to be sort of a Meghan McCain. And then when I watched it, I was like, oh wait, he actually has, he has brain cells, which is by the way remarkable that you didn't kill 'em all off when you were on crack.

Yeah, I told you before, I think they got pickled, all the vodka.

Or something like that. So I was like, this is interesting. He's not a total idiot. So there is, there are the stereotypes of rich kids who just keep getting handed all of these awards in life.

I say to everybody, is that if there's any ever anybody in the history of America that benefits from low expectations, it's me. Is it? People are like, oh my God, like, you aren't. You're not a complete moron. You haven't pulled out your crack pipe yet, which is really crazy. But that gives you an idea, by the way, of the level to which I was muted because they didn't want it. And, you know, you, you have to subvert yourself to a machine to a certain degree. And like, it wasn't up to me if I wanted to go out and like rail at the machine or rail at, you know, go on and, and, and argue with Jake Tapper, you know, because it would harm your dad. Yeah, because it— then, then I become even more of the story. But you give up your voice in that way. And it's incredibly emasculating. And particularly when the, the, um, the portrait that is being painted of you as a, um, a, a ne'er-do-well that never did anything in their life. Like, like you wanna talk about experience? Go look at my goddamn resume. I have 10 times more experience in 10 times more things, and I know I am 10 times more well-read than either one of the Trump boys, regardless of what you think about them.

Now, you know what I can't do is that I'm not a great shot, you know, and, um, and I don't know anything about real estate.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't know anything about making money. And that's why I'm about, you know, a few million dollars in, in debt. And I, and I don't, I, I, I, and I need to change that one around in some way at the age of 56. But the portrait that was painted on me has given me this incredible gift. Said, I can walk into your house, into your studio, and I guarantee that people afterwards are gonna go, I still think he's— but my God, he's not. You know what, like, can you believe it? He didn't go do lines in the bathroom.

No, I, I was— that was my reaction when I watched Andrew Callahan. I was like, wow, he's actually thought through his addiction. He's talking about the ritual. Like, this guy's not an idiot. And I— you're right, I guess you do benefit from having exceedingly low expectations, but it sort of like you said, the first time you spoke. And of course you did sort of have to be quiet because otherwise you would've definitely hurt your father. And there, there's a machine that's kind of bigger than you that you have to submit yourself.

But the rage was there. You could tell the, the, that I, I even went back. My dad just said, honey, that was, that was really beautiful parts of it. Did you have to use the, the F word that much? I was like, coming from you.

Yeah. Yeah.

But she did. The thing about my dad though is he, he, at least from the different generation, he would, he never talked to us that way ever. Like even around or around my mom or, you know, but anyway, so I'm trying to curb the F word for, for my mom and dad.

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Just about 3. I was a month away from 3. Beau was a month away from 4. My, uh, my sister, Caspi, was about 18 months. And, um, who my oldest daughter's named after, Naomi. And, um, uh, and, uh, yeah.

Do you have any memory of her?

Yeah, you know, I, it, it's a, uh, I don't know. for certain whether the, the things that I have, which I believe are memories, are memory. Um, because it would be very rare, uh, at that age. I, I, I have distinct memories of my, my mom carrying us around in picnic basket. And, um, and I even have a, uh, a distinct memory of the car, not the accident. Of the car. Um, yeah, but I don't know if it's because I've been, you know, steeped in stories. You know, the beautiful part, like everything, there's a, have you ever read any of the, um, the Gnostic Gospels? You know, the, um, you really should because I know you're, uh, I, I've listened to you talk about your Catholicism and your faith and, and I'm like a toddler in the faith and there's so much, it's like so rich. So it's really cool. There's the, one of the things that I, I've always been a student of because when I went first, went to Georgetown, the two closest people after I graduated Georgetown were two Jesuit priests. One was named Ted Dziak and another one was Bill Watson.

And both Father Watson and Father Dziak led me into this idea of service. You know, it was the, I started a thing called the Jesuit International Volunteers uh, with Father Watson, I mean, excuse me, Father Dziak. And then I went to the, to the JBC because of Father Watson, um, which is like domestic Peace Corps, you know? And I did that for a year. And then when I opened up my own law firm, the, my, all my clients were, um, Jesuit universities because I was friends with presidents of the universities that were just like 5 or 6 years older than than me, you know, that were now becoming presidents of St. Joe's and Granton and Loyola and all these Jesuit universities, Detroit Mercy. And, um, but anyway, the Gnostic Gospels. The Gnostic Gospels were, um, uh, they were found, uh, in Nag Hammadi, and they were written in the period between Christ's death and the first 2 centuries. And there's the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip, and Constantine. And now I'm going to do this boring—

no, I'm very interested in this.

Um, uh, Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.

Yep. The end.

But what he did, and really what it was about, was not a, um, uh, not a true transformation of faith. It was a way to consolidate power. So he made the, the Christian, um, uh, bishops who were, you know, 200 years into the, the very, very early church. He made the Christian bishops his lieutenants and enforcers as it related to, um, uh, the religion so that he can control the more radical elements of it. And so that is when they came to an adoption of just 4 gospels. And because there's all of these other writings that became, uh, that you could get excommunicated for, um, running. That is really beautiful, really beautiful, um, portraits of like the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and Jesus's relationship with Mary Magdalene. But anyway, in the, it's not a gospel, but it is one of the texts. I think it's called, uh, the Acts of John. There is a thing that Christ says. And he says, you, uh, I'm paraphrasing, you must learn to suffer as I do in order to be able not to suffer. And that is the greatest lesson of everything, is not having gratitude for all the good things in my life, for having immense gratitude for all of my life.

Like, I wouldn't be here. We couldn't have this honest conversation. I couldn't get to know you as a human being if every single thing didn't occur behind it. I would not feel this, this gift of being alive on a daily basis the way that I do if I hadn't overcome committing suicide dozens of times in motel rooms, in places that I could never afford to be found dead, you know? And it's that piece of life that, like, the only way I got it is when they just tore off all my clothes, tarred and feathered me, and put me in the center of town and said, look at him. And I, and I, and I survived. When you survive that, you kind of go, what am I gonna do with my life? Well, the number one thing I wanna do with my life is number one, take care of me.

Yeah. Take care of me. I, I feel like I, I have to say like, I'm really sorry that I contributed to that. Like, I just feel really shitty. Like, I feel guilty because like hearing you talk about, I mean, basically having the worst moments of your life, like I always speak about on my show how a lot of these kids growing up aren't gonna even know what it was like before social media where you could just make a mistake and like have that be over and you got to grow up. And now it's like they're digging and they're finding people's tweets from when they're 17. They're an idiot. They wrote the N-word once and they like wanna hang 'em when they're 40. And I just, I just saw you as a caricature and it was, it was definitely, like I said, like feeling gaslit by the political machine, convinced that it was just the left that took in this political machine. And I just like really want to say like genuinely, like, I'm so sorry that I just didn't even consider he's a crackhead. And like, you know, like that's actually a very relatable thing and he shouldn't be, you know, like to have that is just unbelievable to consider every worst thing you've ever done.

I am, uh, like I told you before we started, I cry very easily.

But I do, I just feel like I, my, it's not who I want to be. And I think I've, I've come a long way from that in general. Um, and Like, but I did partake in just the inhumanity of just look at this guy at the worst moment of his life, like with prostitutes, he's on crack, he's on drugs, and we should make fun of him because it makes us feel good or it makes us feel like we're somehow beating the machine. And that it was, I think, a really warped viewpoint. And hearing you speak about it today, I'm just like, wow, that is so gross that I partake, you know.

You have So much, and I mean this in a good way, so much power because I think that the, your audience absolutely trusts you. And the reason that they trust you is because you've shown an enormous amount of courage of speaking your mind, particularly as it related to someone that you loved like a brother and everything that has transpired since then, which is an immediate rejection of power and an immediate rejection of, and knowing that it, you were just gonna get the shit beat out of you. And for you to say that to me, I truly mean it just from a purely selfish point of view. It means the world. And no one said so. And I truly didn't come here for that. I came here because, you know what? I ask forgiveness every day without any expectation that I will be forgiven. But I know the people that I hurt. And, you know, and I still do. And I'm not even remotely I'm not perfect and I'm, and I still screw up and, you know, and, but God, if like, if we could have this conversation and genuinely, authentically believe that, like, I think just opens the door for, and a few other people without being, you know, with all humility, like maybe You know, maybe a few other people.

And there is a freedom in it too. Like, there's a freedom that your worst moments have just been— yeah, there's nothing else.

What are you gonna say? Yeah, you know what I mean?

Like, you got me butt naked up with a crack pipe, so I mean, there's— I survived it. And so you have it, and yeah, it allows you to kind of return to who you are because it's, you know, addiction is— yeah, I wouldn't wish it. I always say, like, you know, people growing up and seeing what it's done to families and, um, seeing a lot of stuff when I was younger, like, really made me like— again, I'm I can't even imagine.

Imagine if you could talk about it. Yeah. Imagine if you could have openly talked about it and the person that you were confronting or doing it is like, were able to say like, like, this is, you know, like, we gotta do something about this. Come on everybody, let's do something about it. I wanna start an aftercare program for people for free because the biggest thing that happens is people go to detox and they go to recovery center, um, or rehab and they get out after 30 days and they got nowhere to go. And so one of the things that I'm trying to do is start a, a free aftercare program. And there's a couple, there's one in Kentucky that is beautiful model. But if I could do that, you know, I work with a, with a, with an organization called Boston Universal. I'm the development director there. And they do tenants' rights and, and, and homeless prevention. Like, I know what we all can agree on. We can all agree on that, you know, that people can't afford to pay the rent and they'd be able to figure out a way to stay, stay in their houses before it becomes a mother with 3 kids that are homeless.

We know where that leads. But these kinds of things is what I want to use, what I'm doing, what, like, I want, like, I want to do that. I also want to make a living. I also want to do well. I also want to be able to pay my debt. I also want to be able to do the things that, you know, I have, you know, you know, I also still want to make art, you know, uh, you know, I, I started, um, finally, and like, you know what, I'm going to put all my art on my website. And people can come look at it. If they wanna buy it, they can buy it. Mm-hmm. And like, because I don't really believe art becomes art until you share it with somebody. Um, I mean, like, until there's an observer of it. So I can, you know, I can sit in my, my, my studio, which is my garage. But I wanna do all of those things and I wanna be able to do it and I wanna be able to talk to you. You know what I mean? I wanna be able to talk to the people.

I wanna Talk to, like, that family, necessary conversation, and say to the mom, like, the stories your daughter tells you about the way that you adopted animals, it really moves me. The fact that you think I'm the spawn of the devil, can I, we maybe have a discussion about it? Right.

You know? Yeah, it's a caricature. Yeah. And I have a caricature of me that's been built up for years, so I, should have been more empathetic to it, honestly. But it's when you're in it, you kind of don't really know that you're in it, I think.

Well, not only in it is that you're in it to win it.

Yeah.

And once everything is put in a political lens and, and life or death, and, you know, if we lose this election, the, you know, this is over. And these, you know, now I will tell you this is that we've never had somebody that is, you know, uh, you know, opposed staying longer than they're supposed to, but regardless, is that I think that, that we all have a tendency to, um, to look at the time that we live in and say that it's worse than ever. Absolutely worse. And the fact of the matter is, is if, like you, if you, you know, your history is that like, this is a cycle. Um, uh, There will always be really bad people. We will always be disappointed, um, uh, at, in the end with leadership. We will always have corruption. We, it doesn't mean that we need to accept it. It doesn't mean that we don't need to fight against it. It doesn't mean that sometimes really good people make the wrong choice. Um, uh, but what it does mean is that I have absolute hope. I really truly still believe in America, even with all of the, the, all of its, uh, faults.

I mean, even after reading The Devil's Chessboard, like, you know, you read that and you go like, what is this? And that's not about Democrats and that's not about Republicans. And if you go back and you go back to Reconstruction, you go back to Andrew Johnson and you go back to like the, um, uh, you know, The fact that the United States of America has not had, it was not, it's not been the truly the United States of America until, you know, 1964 at best. And this whole thing, but I still really believe in the, the illusion. And the thing that makes me so mad is they have completely torn away that illusion and people feel hopeless. They feel like there's no chance of changing it. Okay. They gave this guy, the Marines to do it. And he was the one who was going to blow everything up and make it better for everybody. And they're kind of like, wait a second, what happened to Charlie? Wait a second, why are we at war again?

Yeah. You know, I think this is actually the most important question, and I will make this my final question I want to ask you, but, um, I'm really interested about your faith life. You're Catholic, you're raised Catholic, you went to Catholic school, and like, is, you're talking to me about the Gnostic Gospels.

Let's, you and I go see the Pope together.

I would love to do that.

Seriously.

I think he's a little mad at America right now.

No, but you and I can go see him.

He's been, I was tweeted the same day as the Pope, by the way, by Trump when he said bad things about me.

For real, let's go to the Vatican.

I would love to. I would love to.

It's the coolest place in the world. I love it so much.

I just got back from Italy. I was there, uh, 2 weeks ago. Yeah. I did, I did my confirmation.

Well, Oh, you did?

I did. I was, it was just the most beautiful.

Oh, that's so cool.

Unbelievable.

Yeah.

It was literally the same day that Trump posted the Time Most Vile Person of the Year. Yeah. So I, I felt like there was, even in that, there was something divine because it was like looking at fake power and then the real power of like having, you know, a cardinal getting confirmed, being in Italy, the, the deep history, like what outlasts that. Like there was something so fickle about it. Like posting this photo of me when I was sick. Okay, great.

Wait, hold on.

Talk about humiliating people for sport.

Somebody literally sent this to me right before I came into here. They knew that I was going to talk to you, and I promise you I did not plan to do this.

No, you're so fine.

It was a prayer. If you are wise and understand God's ways, prove it by living an honorable life. Do good works with the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you are bitterly jealous and there is selfish ambition in your heart, Don't cover up the truth with boasting and lying, for jealousy and selfishness are not God's kind of wisdom. Such things are earthly, unspiritual, and demonic. For wherever there is jealousy and selfish ambition, there you will find disorder and evil of every kind. The whole first piece of that, when you were just talking, is what's my faith? If you are wise and understand God's ways, prove it by living an honorable life. And the thing that I recognized is that, quote, from Mother Teresa, I don't go to Mass as much as I used to. I grew up going to Mass every Sunday. I never would miss a Mass. You know, I, I went to Georgetown, I was Catholic, but what I realized is that my real faith is in that belief is that just do the next right thing. That's the, whether it's the golden rule, and that doesn't mean you have to be weak in your empathy, but always be, uh, compassionate.

I believe in the perennial philosophy. I believe that same exact message from the Upanishads to, uh, the The Gospels of Jesus Christ are all at base in terms of the red letter words of each of them are saying the same thing. Love your neighbor like you would want to be loved. And it's the hardest thing in the world to do. So hard. But that's my faith. And, and I think that there are certain people that arrive at certain times that are messengers of that. And, uh, like for instance, I certainly don't agree with the Catholic Church on a lot of stuff. I certainly, um, have a, uh, but I tell you what, I really am so proud of Pope Francis and now Pope Leo in terms of just the notion of social justice. Um, and, uh, And I think that there can be a practical application of that in terms of our leadership. I really do. I think that faith that is used as a cudgel is really, really dangerous. I think that, I know a lot of people. That I personally love and very close to that are part of an evangelical church, particularly in the African American community, but that are horrified by the complicity of a certain section of the evangelical church and what's happening in the world today.

So to me, my faith is very personal. Rooted in, in, uh, it's rooted in Catholicism, uh, and it's rooted in, uh, the Society of Jesus, the Jesuit Church in particular, which I, you know, they used to always call the Black Pope until we finally got a Jesuit Pope. That's, you know, and with the, with the eyes wide open too, that, um, the church is, is, uh, as an institution is incredibly flawed and had been, but But it's given me an enormous sense of community and belonging just from a cultural perspective.

Well, what I'm gonna say is I really think you should go to confession.

Yeah.

You should do that.

Oh, I, don't worry, I've been to confession.

Yeah, you should go to confession and get, you know, and, and just, you know, just.

100%. Yeah, don't worry.

Go back to the root.

I agree.

Go back to the root. And, um, you know, it's, it's, here's, here's the other thing. There's so much there and it's like, you're not, you know, you're just not enough. Your brain's not enough. I mean, hearing you describe that, I can do this, that there's just something about, for me, like the, the submission that every mass and just remembering like the beautiful thing. Yeah.

The beautiful thing is this. The beautiful thing is that I have been going to confession for 6 years. Wow. Right here. That's me. You know, I, I, like that freedom, you know, what you feel like the only person that you could say this to, you know, and I'm not saying that there is not like my impure thoughts that I'm, you know, that's between me and God, but I am saying is that that feeling of release that the confessional is there for is the feeling that when I was finally able to see beyond all of the noise that I received by just existing and getting up every day and looking, turning over and seeing that my wife, who saved me, and, uh, Bowie, and my dad, as a dad, not as president, but just as a dad, and my mom and my sister and my aunts and uncles and everybody else, and then the wider circle, my friend George, you know, my friend Franny, my, you know, I mean, my friend Bobby, I, like, people that came into my life and And never left. And despite it all, when there was nothing in it for them but just grief and ridicule.

Pretty cool.

It's everything.

Yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen, Hunter Biden. Never thought this conversation would happen, and it just— stranger things have happened. And I'm just— this has truly been one of the most powerful discussions that we've ever had. And I think it's because of your journey. You know, you've lived through a lot. You, Lost your mother, your sister in a tragic accident. You lost your brother to cancer. Maybe for a while lost your dad to politics, political machine, lost yourself to crack cocaine. And somehow—

I gained everything.

Yeah. Gained it all back.

Yeah, I really did. I can't tell you how much it means to me that, that you would invite me here into your home to be able to have this discussion. Um, and I, I, I really, really mean it. I, I, I'm really, really honored.

And I'm, and I'm grateful that you took it and that you've accepted my apology. 'Cause I, I just feel really shitty about it. But, um, thanks. Guilt is good. Like we said earlier. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Amazing.