Transcript of Beyond Betrayal | The Making of 'The Crimes of Margo Freshwater'

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1969, Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. At Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of trustees, including Martin Luther King Jr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Minalik Lamuber. Listen to the A building on the iHeart Cart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Over the last couple of years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by Black people because of what happened in Alabama? After Montgomery Bra. This Black History Month, the podcast, Selective Ignorance with Mandi B, unpacks Black history and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown Act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandi B from the Black Effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Nat Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast in the lead up to the Milan at 2026 Winter Olympic Games.

We've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen.

Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears.

Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty. I'm Ben Higgins, and If You Can Hear Me is where culture meets the soul. Honest conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between. Celebrities, thinkers, everyday people, some have answers, most are still figuring it out. And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I have the incredible Cooper Mall here with me today to talk about the crimes of Margot Freshwater. Cooper, thank you for joining me today.

Thanks for having me, Dre.

I want to talk a little bit about your new project, Glass Podcast, new project, the crimes of Margot Freshwater. Daughter because we both had our hand in it in one way or the other, but it's something that I feel like we've dedicated a lot of time to. And I just am excited to share a little bit about this story with the Betrayal Audience. For people that don't know, this is a story about a set of circumstances that led a woman to go to Tennessee and meet somebody that resulted in a crime spree, a murder spree. And A number of people ended up dead. It's a complicated thing to approach because there are people that lost their lives. Walk me through because this story was something that at last we were developing for a few years. It was always percolating in the background. There was something gravitating me, my colleague Ben, my colleague Kari towards Tanya, a. K. Margot. When you came onto it, you were meeting this material with fresh eyes, new... You didn't know much about it. So tell me what it was like to interact with the story for the first time, and what stood out to you that made you think, I need to be part of this?

I think for me, I've always been interested in double lives or people who have to create another identity, and not always because they're being malicious or they're being deceitful, but out of necessity. And I've always been interested in the psychological toll of that. I mean, what is it like to keep up with all of the stories and lies and all of the different things you have to be able to carry with you in order to have that new identity be something solid, right? And that you ever... How do you slip into a new skin like that? But this one was different. I felt somehow emotionally connected to it from the jump. I'd seen these photos of Margot when she was a teenager, and I'd seen her mug shot, and I'd seen the way she was talked about. And I think I instantly felt some kinship to her or some relatability to her. Growing up, I was maybe could have been characterized by other people as a wild child. However, I was a very deeply sensitive, creative, just a lot of feelings type of person. But I felt that I knew her. I just saw her, and I knew she was misunderstood because I had felt that way, too.

And there's just certain things about her that felt relatable to me, and I really just wanted to get to know her, and I wanted to get to know who she really, really was.

And who she is. Like, who she is.

Exactly. Exactly. And who she is. And while it's easy to look at this story and be like, wow, this person got away with living for three decades on the lamb and be interested in how did she pull it off and all of that and the cat and mouse of it all. But I also saw a survivor. I just saw somebody who was very steadfast in what they believed about themselves, which was, I am an innocent person, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to get justice for myself. And there's something pretty badass about that. Anyhow, back to the original question, which is, what was that like? I mean, it just every day got more fascinating to me. And then, and that was before I met Tanya, formerly known as Margot Freshwater. And then once I finally met her, I mean, that's when it was on. It was just like, she is... It wasn't like I was star struck or anything. But you meet her and you just realize how much deeper- Committed in a different way.

Yes.

How much deeper this story goes, the testimony to the human spirit that it is. There's so much nuance to this story with regard to what does justice mean? What does rehabilitation mean? What does innocence mean? What does innocence mean? There's so many different things that you can take away from this and to be able to have her horse all of that out for me was just unbelievable. And then approaching it, I think we've all had that moment with this story. When I say all of us, I'm thinking of you and Carrie and Ben, who really started the development process of this, but where we had an idea in our heads of who Margot Freshwater was. And so much of that comes from, sure, there had been a lot of reporting on her crimes and her case and her trial, but it had always been from a singular point of view, that she was the woman behind the man, that she was the Bonnie to this much older man's Clyde, that she was a willful accomplice in this crime spree, and there was nothing in the record of her.

Tell us a little bit about what you know about Glenn Nash.

Margot's paths crossed with him because a friend of hers had been caught up in an armed robbery in the Tennessee area. Glenn Nash was an attorney who I would liken to a Bob Odenkirk in Better Call Saul. This is a guy who's hanging on by his fingernails. The Memphis Bar Association was looking into him. He had been disbarred in one city, and this was back when you could be disbarred in one city and then go set up shop in another. He'd already been involved in multiple police investigations, FBI investigations for robbery, et cetera. Definitely characterize him as a bit of an ambulance chaser, and definitely doing stuff below board. And what's crazy about this is the span of time this happens in. I mean, within within one month, she is completely living under his thumb. And here's this 18-year-old girl. She's never been away from home. She doesn't have any money. And all of a sudden, she's responsible for legal fees for a friend. It all happens so fast, and it's easy to say something like, Well, why did she do that? She could have just stayed home. Why'd she just leave? Yeah, she didn't have to do any of that.

But I think when you're an 18-year-old girl who's never been outside of your suburban Ohio home, really, who knows nothing about the legal system, who knows nothing about how trials work or defense attorneys work, et cetera, you're going to believe the adults in the real. There's going to be a level of urgency. There's going to be a level of fear. Like, what if my friend is locked up and nobody comes to help him, and I'm the only one who can save him, and this guy is offering me an opportunity to do I can totally see my 18-year-old self making the same decisions.

Right. And I think we talk a lot about this on Betrayal, about agency and decision-making. And what I find so fascinating about this story, Cooper, is that it really explores the humanity in true crime, because she's making very intense decisions as a human being, trying to navigate a really volatile situation. She gets inbroiled. She gets in the mix with someone who's not just an alcoholic, but mentally unstable. It has a tenuous grasp on reality at this point, and it is getting more intense by the day. And so I think it is easy for people with distance to take a look at that set of circumstances and say, Why don't you just leave? But there's, like you said, that she felt indebted to a friend. She wanted to make sure her friend was okay. And then you start realizing that you've been put in a situation that you actually can't get out of. When you come to that realization, it's usually often too late. That reality is something that I think it's glossed over. It's oftentimes something that we really explore on the trail When people are saying, How did you not know? Or, Why did this person make that decision?

People really come at the decision makings of these subjects. I feel like what's more important is to understand that these decisions are being made in survival mode. She doesn't really understand what her options are. She feels like there's very little options. It's less about meeting making, but more about... It's in those moments of decisions that I think you can really see a human, and it feels like a human story as opposed to something that's watered down or distilled for the sake of the audience. Right? Like, let's make this digestible for somebody else to understand. But the reality is that people make decisions all the time that we don't understand. And unfortunately, she got in a situation where she was with someone who was really meant mentally ill and then ended up taking people's lives. How did you hold space for both Margot's perspective, Tanya's perspective, and the victims and the victim's families of this case? Because that must have been really hard.

This was especially tough because everybody connected to the victims in this story. I mean, we have to remember this all happened in 1966 to full-grown adults. So many of the people connected connected to the victims, and I'm talking about their grandchildren are deceased now. I think something that was very helpful for me in this process was I had somebody on my team who had experienced being a victim of a family member being murdered, and I was able to lean on her for, okay, what would you want to hear? If you're listening to this, what feels most sensitive? Really checking in that I'm not missing something. And I think for me, holding space for both of those things was really taking time in the writing process and having asides and the scripts where We zoom out and look at just bigger picture without assigning guilt or innocence to anyone who these people could have been by now or reminding our listeners that these were real people this happened to. And this is the time they lost and reflecting on what it must be like to have your life diluted to what ended it, right? I mean, that that's all the information that's out on these people is sad.

Yeah. Yeah. They just become a name in a newspaper article, and that's tragic. One of the things that feels really important to me when we were really exploring the story, and maybe this is just the feminist in me, but it became very clear very early on, based on the set of circumstances that Tanya was under and how sick Glenash was that this is actually like, it's not not a betrayal story, Cooper, in some ways.

There are a lot of many betrayals along the way here. So many.

Yeah. And for me, what felt like the first one, the first big one, was when they both get arrested. Nash, it's decided that he's criminally insane. He can't stand trial. He goes to a mental institution. He's committed. And now Margot has to face justice. She has the justice system on behalf of something that he did. And for me, it very much felt like an example of a woman answering for a man's crimes. And that, to me, I felt like was at the heart of it, and what I think is very betrial-esque. How does that resonate with you?

I totally agree. And I think in this case, in particular, for two of the states where these crimes took place, they were not able... I mean, one of them, they didn't even bring about charges because they couldn't tell where she was. It within relation to the crime. The second state, it was a hung jury twice. They couldn't place her at these crimes. So by the time we get to Tennessee bringing charges, I mean, they come to her with this almost like retribution for these other trials that didn't go as they maybe thought they should have, right? With her being convicted. So I feel almost like by the time she gets put on this Tennessee trial for the first murder in the spree, they're so locked and loaded, and they already have in their heads who this person is. It's as if the decision is made before the trial date is even set. They're out for blood. She's guilty. We need someone to answer for these crimes. And if it's not going to be the insane lawyer, it's going to be the young girl. To me, she could have been anyone. And I think that's the part of it that I can really start to get my blood boiling, right?

It's almost like she could have been anyone. She's just a... She's a vehicle for that. She's someone they can pin it on. Yeah, she could have been anyone. That's how it felt to me.

It's hard, definitely when you're existing with a case where there are people, victims that lost their lives to really lean in to understand the story behind how they lost their lives. But the reality is that Margot was facing 99 years, too. So she also was facing the fact that she lost her life. She was giving up. That was taken away from her. Her life was essentially taken, too. And so it's hard, right?

I think about if this trial happened today, and we knew what we knew about it, that this was this young woman under dress, you would have tons of people online having... There'd be petitions, there'd be TikToks about it, there'd be funds to try to get her out of her situation, debates. There was no language for it then.

Right. And people are consuming information from a very few amount of sources, right? And these sources are really capitalizing on the story, painting her a picture, painting the picture of her as Bonnie to her Clyde. And so it was a very different time. People are only getting information from her, probably from one place. And depending on what they're doing, and you and I know very well, it's sensationizing what the story is. It's these two people on a murder spree, and that sealed her fate in a lot in a lot of ways. But what would you say, because without any major spoilers, would you say is for true crime fans, what unique elements are part of this story? What differentiates Margot's story from other true crime shows to get people interested in the crimes of Margot Freshwater.

Well, I think what makes this a very different type of fugitive story, I want to still make sure... I mean, this is such an entertaining story, but there is something about Hania, who Margot becomes, that is there's a simplicity about her. And I don't mean that in the fact that she isn't extremely bright and interesting and compelling. But this is not your typical cat and mouse. There's this person leaving breadcrumbs. There's the fugitive is leaving breadcrumbs, or the fugitive is continuing to commit crimes, and there's someone on their tail. I think what's so fascinating about this story, and that makes... When I say simple, she's leading a simple life.

She's not a criminal mastermind.

No. And we learn so much about the inner monolog of somebody in this unbelievable situation. I think that is really what makes this story, this particular story, original, right? Typically, if you don't have access to the person at the center of the story, you're imagining what this would have been like. If you are somebody who wants to know what it is like to be up in the head space of carrying this secret with you for 30 years, always having to be one step ahead. And what's fascinating about her is, although it is always in the back of her mind, there's this paradox where at the same time, it's almost like she had to stop thinking about it. It's like she almost knew that it would be weirder if she acted strange or did too much. We get inside of her head in this series, and that is in the first-hand account of what those 30 years were like, is just so much of it surprised me, right? I think most people would... I don't know how I'd be able to just keep going knowing that I'm hiding a huge secret.

I think about the anxiety that I deal with, just thinking about... Like, waking up and thinking, I didn't finish this one assignment that's due for school. I haven't been in college for 16 years. I still live with that residual anxiety. I don't know how I would manage holding something so big and also the pain and the grief of having to walk away from your family because that's a necessity, not being able to say goodbye to your loved ones or knowing that any connection to your home and your family means forever in prison. That is a very difficult, lonely, isolating feeling, but just having to keep persevering. It's really incredible. I feel like watching you report and write on this show was actually the top five joys of my year last year, watching you really throw yourself into it, fall in love with the story, feel committed to the storytellers in this case, it was really a joy to watch. How do you feel like the story changed you as a person, as a producer, as a writer?

The amount of perspectives on life, womanhood that I gained in the process of getting to know Tanya, there were so many moments along the way where my mind felt blown or I felt so overwhelmed with emotion. There are just certain things that the amount of grit and perseverance this person had just made me, gave me perspective in the sense of there are certain things in my life that just really aren't that bad. I don't want to say that she's this downtrodded in person. It has more to do with her outlook on, When things get bad, I can't dwell on it. She says, I just had to keep going. And there's something about her code, her life code, that although you could say is, shrouded in deceit or whatever, if you want, that really is like, there are a lot of gems in there to live by. And I think that I was really struck by that. But this, I think, story is also a reminder that, it could be tomorrow, it could be five years, it could be 50 years. Like, the truth always comes out. And I think that is the patience this person gave that process.

It's fairly remarkable.

And what you can... For me, it was like what you could accomplish when you have somebody in your corner or people in your corner. What she was able to... I'm sure she feels grateful for Steven Ross Johnson, her attorney, her defense attorney. That is someone that never gave up on her. I mean, she had two people that never gave up on her in two very unique ways, one to bring her down and the other to help get her freedom. And it's a really interesting pursuit what can happen when you just at least have one person that believes in your innocence, one person that believes in you. And for Tanya, it was Stephen.

Yes, that is so true. And I think, yeah, another major theme of this story is forgiveness. And there are people along the way that Tanya views with so much grace and compassion and even love that I found myself being like, I do not know if I could do that. I don't know if I could do that. But it also... I mean, this is somebody who is 77 years old now, not make it about this, but I mean, she's in incredible health. She looks amazing. You'd think that carrying a secret with you and having to be on the move all the time, which is like, age you and you'd have a chip on your shoulder, et cetera. I almost feel like she's an example of, if you walk around this world with loving kindness, and that's the longevity key right there. There's just something about her where I'm like, wow, I could probably approach people a little bit kinder. Right.

Make no mistakes, she's tough as nails. She's tough as nails. But there is a lightness. There is a lightness to her. She lets go what she needs to let go of.

Yeah. And I think that is something when we go back to, how did this change you? I really... That was, I think, a lesson I've personally needed, right? It's just like, when to let go, when to let other people have their story and just know who... Tanya has always known who she is. And I think that and what she did all of these things, right? And she has never wavered on that. And despite what other people have said about her, she has never let that influence her opinion of herself. And I think that is tough to do. And then I think for me, you'd ask how it changed me as a storyteller or whatever. I definitely felt this was the first... I have struggled as a writer sometime when I think a story is even if I think a story is really amazing or crazy or whatever, it's not all the time that I get to feel so personally connected to the sources who are helping me tell a story or just some of the themes in a story in general or the protagonist in the story. While, of course, I'm trying to toe the line between me and a neutral reporter in the story, I also found ways I feel like throughout my writing to insert myself.

And I think that as you listen to it, it's clear that I get more emotionally invested in the story as it goes. And I'm really grateful that Glass, Sony, you, Ben, were a game for that, because I don't know if there is a way I could have told this story without inserting my own human journey in telling it.

It's true. Yeah. Because there's tension there when that When you feel that push-pull. It's tense, and it actually is harmful to the writing. It makes it even harder.

You probably remember this in the beginning, because obviously we're writing it knowing everything we know now, and you're writing it in the first episode, and I'm thinking to myself, God, it was so weird for me to access putting my, I know nothing about this person, and I'm going to cast suspicion on them or whatever. There were times where I was like, I know this is how you tell a good story, and I'm thinking about her feelings or everybody else's feelings while listening to it or whatever. But I mean, those are things we all get over as we do this. And I knew I was like, Tanya is going to listen to these. And the first three episodes are going to be hard, but she's going to know.

She's going to get through it. Some people don't give you the benefit. Yeah, some people don't give you the benefit of making their way through it. There are some people that you work with that will listen to one thing and then bail and then make their own decision about the trajectory of where you're going to take the story in the season. And that's their choice. But when there's real trust and there's real clarity when producing, which is clear that you've cultivated trust on every side of the sources. I think it's a testament to how people perceived your commitment to the story and the trust there. So I absolutely enjoyed working with you. And And top five joys of the year for me is working alongside you, looking at your work ethic, how you dedicated yourself to the story. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you feel like is important to share with the Betrayal audience? Because I think this is a story for? This is a story for our Betrayal listeners, for sure.

Well, the show is at its heart or at its core and has been marketed as a true crime story. I think what's interesting interesting and sets the Crimes of Margot Freshwater apart from some other true crime narratives is, I really believe this is a story, this is a human story that whether or not you're a true crime fan, you can connect with at some level. I didn't necessarily set out to do that when I was making it. But then looking back and listening to it back, I realized this is... There's a genre bending aspect to this podcast, and now I feel like we can all look back at it and be like, Wow, okay, this is true crime and then some. I don't know what that some is, but I know it's different, and I know people can connect with this, whether or not... That's your thing.

It's a ride. It's a roller coaster ride of just really understanding this whole story. I don't want to spoil anything for our audience that are just interested in this story. But I will say your story really picks up. The trial happens, she gets sentenced 99 years, and Margot has a decision to make. And it's, I'm not staying here. I'm not accepting this course of action. I'm not accepting this fate. And she takes her life in her own hands. And so you and I will leave the audience to go and figure out what happened and the years that follow. Well, Well, thank you for everything. I think you did an incredible job. I can't wait to work with you again, and I hope that day comes sooner rather than later. I miss you.

Likewise. I know. I look back and I I mean, but not even looking back. I mean, while I was in it, it was so unreal to me that I was entrusted to do this, and it really, really couldn't have been done at all, and especially at the pace it was done in without the incredible groundwork by you, by Kerry Hartman, by Trey, by Ben. I am so grateful for that. It was awesome. I will really, really cherish this experience.

1969, Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. At a Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of trustees, including Martin Luther King senior. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Manalik Lumumba. Listen to the A building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Over the last couple of years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by Black people because of what happened in Alabama? This Black History Month, the podcast, Selective Ignorance with Mandi B, unpacks Black History and Culture with Comedy, Clarity, and Conversations that shake the status The Crown Act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandi B from the Black Effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Corteina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

Hi, Bowen.

Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty. I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, is where culture meets the soul. Honest conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between. Celebrities, thinkers, everyday people, some have answers, most are still figuring it out. And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.